# Dr Emily - What Are Your Values?

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 21 Jul 2024, 1 h 28 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/fj5ddym2c6s0mrpfhkyarjfl.mp3

Your values are perfect - according to our resident psychologist Dr. Emily Musgrove. Although this sounds counter intuitive to what we usually say…it’s actually a beautiful place to start. Figuring out what your values are, and where they come from can be a pretty intense experience. Lucky we have Dr Em to help, breaking down why they are important and how they can add purpose to your life. As she explains, our values work like a compass, and when used responsibly, can point us in the direction of the person we want to be. Links mentioned in the episode: 🎧 Previous episodes of The Imperfects Pat Cummins - Love, Loss & Life - https://apple.co/4eHc4zJ The Academy of Imperfection - Ben Crowe - https://bit.ly/3MrxtRN James Clear - Down The Habit Hole - https://bit.ly/3XZhQGr Chrissie Swan - Honesty - https://bit.ly/3qL7WeO 📺 Things to watch Life of Brian “Individual” - https://bit.ly/4bLR74U 📖Steven Hayes books to read A Liberated Mind - https://amzn.to/4bRIHJz Acceptance and Commitment Therapy - https://amzn.to/3Wp95ou 🛠️ Tools to use The Resilience Project 6 month journal - https://bit.ly/3RUBke7 Steve Hayes’ research into values - https://bit.ly/4fhrsnU 📺 To watch the full episode on YouTube, click here: https://bit.ly/46795xC Dr Emily is a clinical psychologist and you can find out more about her here - https://bit.ly/4gesuBy The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

## Transcript

[0:00] Your values are perfect.
[0:05] And this will fly in the face of everything that we know about perfection.
[0:10] But values are freely chosen by you and they can never be wrong.
[0:18] To know that you have a foundation of perfection, like what a place to start there.
[0:23] Quick, is anyone here a doctor?
[0:26] Yes, her name is Dr. Emily, and she's a psychologist.
[0:31] Please welcome to The Imperfects, our very own psychologist.
[0:38] She's back.
[0:38] Dr. Emily's here.
[0:40] Everyone can rejoice in unison.
[0:43] It's always wonderful when Emily's here.
[0:44] Welcome to you, Emily.
[0:45] Pretty sure we're going to enjoy this.
[0:46] We surely will.
[0:48] Pretty sure we're going to enjoy this.
[0:50] A bit of enjoyment.
[0:56] Let that wash over you.
[0:58] It's washed.
[0:59] Yeah.
[1:00] It was a quick rinse.
[1:01] It feels a little bit empty in here.
[1:04] It's better.
[1:05] It's better.
[1:12] Yeah.
[1:13] Okay.
[1:14] Dr. M, it's so good to have you.
[1:17] Thank you.
[1:17] Did you hear the puns I did before?
[1:19] Yeah.
[1:20] Yeah, just...
[1:21] I wasn't sure if there was a delay in the room or something.
[1:26] So yes, for those who don't know, there won't be many of you if you're listening to this, but Dr. Emily is our resident psychologist.
[1:33] She comes in and she talks about a previous episode that we've had on our show and pulls out a moment or something that you think that you could expand upon more in a clinical sense.
[1:46] And we just listen in awe.
[1:50] That's very kind.
[1:53] That's a pretty sharp start.
[1:55] Do you want to do this again or do you?
[1:56] Wow.
[1:56] That's good.
[1:57] No, I'm feeling really good about this.
[1:59] Yeah, remember those puns I did earlier?
[2:01] Yeah.
[2:01] Yeah.
[2:02] Yeah, they were definitely puns.
[2:04] Yeah.
[2:04] Yeah.
[2:05] Thank you.
[2:06] Thank you.
[2:07] So every time you come in here, you talk about a different topic.
[2:10] I already said it.
[2:15] I'm emulating you.
[2:17] Very good.
[2:18] Okay.
[2:18] Touche.
[2:19] Very impressive.
[2:20] I'm losing my grip.
[2:23] Okay.
[2:26] What would you like to talk about today?
[2:28] Impress us.
[2:30] Empathy?
[2:30] Josh!
[2:30] Josh!
[2:37] Oh, God.
[2:38] Okay.
[2:39] I would like to talk about values.
[2:41] Oh, nice.
[2:42] Very good.
[2:43] Yes.
[2:44] And it's something that I obviously talk about a lot, I think, in a lot of the episodes.
[2:48] It feels like it sits like at the foundation in some ways.
[2:51] Yeah.
[2:52] And certainly in the foundation of the work that I do in my practice as well.
[2:56] But I thought it might be helpful to kind of deep dive into understanding them more specifically and looking at kind of what gets in the way.
[3:03] This is very exciting because I feel like every time someone brings up the idea of values, I always make a mental note, oh, I should figure out what mine are.
[3:11] And I just never.
[3:13] It comes up a lot, doesn't it?
[3:14] It does.
[3:14] So many guests we have on say, well, you go back to your values.
[3:17] Yeah.
[3:17] Yeah.
[3:17] So I don't have any values.
[3:18] Where do you get them?
[3:20] But I've always thought I need to sit down one day and write my values.
[3:23] But obviously, maybe you'll help me.
[3:26] Yes.
[3:26] Figure them out.
[3:27] Yeah, we can definitely get started.
[3:28] Okay, great.
[3:30] And the episode that I wanted to kind of hark back to was with Pat Cummins.
[3:34] And I really felt when I was listening to that episode that there were some really beautiful examples there of living by values.
[3:42] There's someone who's hitting values for six.
[3:47] He is.
[3:47] Yeah.
[3:48] Yes, sir.
[3:48] So if we're about to play it, if you'd like to close your eyes, just imagine Pat with his blue eyes at the top of his mark, hair just blowing in the breeze, about to steam in and bowl, most likely just short of a length at 145 kilometres an hour.
[4:02] Ooh, yes.
[4:04] What a visual.
[4:05] Right.
[4:07] And if it wasn't clear from what Hugh just said, Pat Cummins is a cricketer and he's the Australian cricket captain and a hero of many people, but especially Hugh and mine.
[4:15] Yeah.
[4:16] Yeah.
[4:16] No, I like him.
[4:17] Yeah, you like him too?
[4:18] Yeah.
[4:18] Well, since meeting him.
[4:19] What a legend of a man.
[4:21] Yeah.
[4:21] Absolutely.
[4:22] Yeah.
[4:22] Okay.
[4:23] I'll play now.
[4:26] Yeah.
[4:27] And I found myself thinking so much of my childhood, like since maybe having Albie as well, who's my two year old son, but the last few years, and I think as mum, yeah, it was, you know, the end was getting closer.
[4:39] I think I thought of our childhood every day for the last, I reckon, three, four years.
[4:45] And like the childhood we were given by mum and dad and how I'd love to, you know, give that on to Albie and stuff like that.
[4:52] And
[4:53] And yeah, it's so far away from playing cricket in front of a big stadium.
[4:59] And yeah, that's the real you.
[5:03] That's what's important.
[5:04] That's what's going to be still around after cricket.
[5:07] That was me for 20 years before I started playing for Australia.
[5:09] Like that's your real life.
[5:12] And I think those kind of moments bring that into focus even more so.
[5:18] He speaks so well.
[5:21] Doesn't he?
[5:21] He's just, yeah.
[5:24] I love that.
[5:25] And like that childhood.
[5:26] He's like, it's such, his childhood sounds like it was such a picturesque Australian childhood.
[5:31] It does, doesn't it?
[5:32] Yeah.
[5:32] And especially because he was playing cricket.
[5:35] It's the perfect grounding for the Australian cricket captain.
[5:37] Yeah.
[5:38] Yeah, exactly.
[5:39] But what I thought was really interesting about that particular clip also was that it wasn't that moment there and he was talking about the passing of his mum and the 10 days before she passed away.
[5:53] And the thing that struck me so vividly in there was that you take away the achievements, you take away the attachment to goals, you take away being a label like a captain and what sits underneath is what you truly, deeply care about.
[6:09] And it's so remarkable to think about that the 10 days, knowing that you're about to lose someone is actually the most special and in some ways happiest time of someone's life.
[6:25] And to me, it just absolutely stood out that this choice here that he made to leave India and to be with his family was absolutely a value driven choice.
[6:35] Yeah.
[6:36] And he had, you know, let go of any kind of potential criticism or negative connotations around, you know, letting the side down or all of that kind of stuff and living by his values.
[6:48] Yeah, I found it interesting because he spoke in this episode about how he didn't...
[6:52] tell the media.
[6:53] He didn't make an announcement of why he was going because he was so – he just knew what he was doing was the right thing and didn't worry about what people thought.
[7:01] Yeah.
[7:02] Which that stood out to me during that interview.
[7:04] Because, yeah, the temptation would be to kind of explain yourself and to justify it.
[7:09] Yeah, exactly.
[7:10] Yeah.
[7:11] And it kind of brings me obviously to talk more broadly about values, but one of the things that ties into that in particular is the idea that your values are perfect.
[7:25] And this will fly in the face of everything that we know about perfection, but values are freely chosen by you and they can never be wrong.
[7:39] And in that sense, there's this like perfect foundation that always exists with you.
[7:43] And even in the face of feeling, this is a story that we may tell ourselves, but feeling that we're broken or flawed as Steve Hayes, who's the founder of acceptance and commitment therapy suggests that to know that you have a foundation of perfection, like what a place to start there.
[8:05] Cool.
[8:06] Jeez.
[8:06] Okay.
[8:07] So, I mean, I desperately, I feel like even though I'm thinking about it with values and living by your values seems like, it seems like the ultimate, like to be able to actually, when you face those forks in the road, like Pat obviously did, it's like, do I stay or do I go?
[8:26] And to choose what could be the less popular choice for the fans of cricket and commentators and stuff.
[8:37] But to know that like, oh, but this is important for me.
[8:39] And so I'm going to make the right choice.
[8:41] Like I would love to get that.
[8:43] I know I don't do that a lot of the time.
[8:46] And I think that that's extremely common.
[8:48] I mean, this is a human experience and the reason most often that we don't live a valued life, so to speak, is because of pain.
[8:59] And I'll explain why that is.
[9:01] But there's a, there's a really interesting quote that for me really resonates and I might read it to you.
[9:08] It's quite long if that's okay.
[9:10] So it was by Gilbert and Leahy in 2007.
[9:14] It'd be amazing if it by Brentley, that would be quite serendipitous.
[9:16] Probably not though.
[9:20] And I'll explain what it means at the end, because there are a few things in there that might feel a bit tricky to kind of grasp, but the pain of psychopathology has two sources.
[9:29] The smaller source is the one usually focused on.
[9:33] The pain of struggling with symptoms.
[9:37] The larger source is often not mentioned.
[9:41] The pain of a life not being lived.
[9:45] Values are choices of desired life directions.
[9:49] Values are a way of speaking about where to go from a life not being lived.
[9:57] I don't think it was Brett Lee.
[10:01] No.
[10:02] Shane, maybe.
[10:04] Jeez, that's a reality check.
[10:08] Yeah.
[10:09] Yeah.
[10:10] And clinically, I see this exemplified all the time, is that we are struggling with pain.
[10:18] We're struggling with anxiety or depressive symptoms.
[10:23] But it's not just the struggle with that that causes us distress.
[10:28] It's the pain of absence.
[10:32] And Steve Hayes also mentions this also, this kind of idea of the pain of presence being the symptoms and the pain of absence, the absence of not living the life that you want to live.
[10:44] And values get us back on that course.
[10:49] Is it also not just the life, not living the life you want to live, but also not being the person you want to be?
[10:54] Yes.
[10:55] Yeah.
[10:55] Yeah.
[10:56] Yeah.
[10:56] And it's really interesting when we look at kind of defining values, they are not morals.
[11:03] Yeah.
[11:04] So they're not about moral standards or principles.
[11:09] It's not about right or wrong.
[11:11] But the question that I think shows up so often for me is, how do you want to live?
[11:16] Like, how do you want to show up to this life?
[11:19] What are the qualities of behaviour that you want to enact?
[11:26] The obstacle I often hit is
[11:31] Even though I don't have like values written on a page, I know what they are.
[11:37] Like, you know, it wouldn't take long to figure out like, well, what do I value?
[11:41] Who's the person I want to be?
[11:44] But often it's very hard to make those choices, which sounds like cold and callous, but it's hard to make those choices when you're sacrificing something that you want.
[11:55] Mm-hmm.
[11:58] So whether it be like my big struggle is like balancing the amount of time I work with spending and spending time with the people I love.
[12:07] Because it's like I feel like if I don't spend enough time on the work stuff, I won't get what I want.
[12:12] But then I'm sacrificing relationships.
[12:14] I want to be the guy who sacrifices work so I can spend more time with people.
[12:22] But I find that a very hard decision to make when I'm in the thick of it.
[12:27] That's a really good point.
[12:29] And my question around there is, so what are the values around work?
[12:34] Um, and, and what feels uncomfortable about letting that go?
[12:39] Um.
[12:46] Well, I guess the fear of failure in work.
[12:52] I've done a lot of thinking about this.
[12:54] One of the things I've realised is work often comes with a deadline.
[12:59] It needs to be done now because the deadline's on Friday, whereas a relationship often doesn't have a deadline.
[13:06] I mean, obviously sometimes it does when it's out of your control, but generally speaking, a relationship is like, well...
[13:12] I won't spend time with them this week because they'll be around next week and I'll just do it then.
[13:16] So that's how I, that's why I struggle with it a little bit.
[13:19] Yeah.
[13:20] But I think the fear of failure is my, it's the worry of what ultimately would happen if I sacrifice work.
[13:25] Mm-hmm.
[13:26] So it exposes you really to discomfort and run.
[13:28] So in essence, like those moments there when we're kind of going along this pathway of choosing how to show up, that work is really important and that's absolutely fine.
[13:38] There's nothing wrong with that.
[13:39] But is there a moment in time where you're making that choice that –
[13:42] the fear actually starts to outweigh the choice around showing up to your partner, for example.
[13:48] And so that's where we would say that the struggle with the pain is taking over from the choices around showing up to other values.
[14:00] Yes.
[14:01] Does that make sense?
[14:02] Yes.
[14:03] Just also realised the fact that my partner will be editing this episode.
[14:09] It was actually funny.
[14:10] The other day, it was an episode we did earlier this year where I was talking about Jam and I said, hi, Jam.
[14:17] And she happened to be editing while I was sitting next to her.
[14:21] And so she just looked at me and said, hi.
[14:27] Anyway, sorry, I'll take you off track.
[14:30] It's a really tricky thing because, you know, like I alluded to at the beginning, we are driven to avoid discomfort.
[14:37] So we need to have a rationale as to why we would be willing to sit with feelings of discomfort.
[14:43] And the rationale is that it's on track to a life that's worth living.
[14:49] So otherwise, why would we bother?
[14:51] Like if we know that avoiding something is going to provide relief, then why would I bother being in it if it wasn't in service of something?
[15:01] Yeah.
[15:01] Yeah.
[15:02] I mean, I see this in so many different examples, but a very kind of simple one would be, let's just say you feel really anxious.
[15:10] and you have your best friend's party coming up and you love this person and one of your values might be caring, like you have a value around caring.
[15:20] And an action that would be consistent with caring would be to show up to the birthday party.
[15:26] But in the moments before the party, you feel so overwhelmed and so anxious about being in that social situation that you make a choice to stay home.
[15:36] And in that moment then happens all the time.
[15:39] But in that moment, you feel relieved.
[15:43] But fairly soon after here arises the pain of not living the life that you want for yourself.
[15:52] And that's a different thing than the guilt for not showing up for the person.
[15:57] They're obviously different.
[15:58] I mean, it's both, I would think.
[16:01] But the guilty feeling is a sign.
[16:03] So the guilty feeling is the information that we pay attention to.
[16:08] So the information is saying that this action is inconsistent with what I want to stand for in my life.
[16:17] And so the guilty feeling is here telling us something that...
[16:20] And so, yeah, we need to listen to that, pay attention to that.
[16:22] Yeah.
[16:23] Yeah.
[16:23] And the challenge, and I've spoken about this like in other contexts, but the ultimate challenge is how can we be okay and open to and willing to feel the discomfort in order to keep us on track with our values?
[16:41] Yeah.
[16:43] Can I go back a step to values themselves?
[16:46] Yes, good idea.
[16:46] Because I, for some reason, I feel a reluctance.
[16:50] I don't really know what mine are.
[16:52] As Ryan said, I'm sure if there are exercises that you can do to work them out pretty quickly.
[16:57] But for some reason, I've always had a reluctance to name them.
[17:01] Like if I name them, I'm stuck with them or something.
[17:06] Mm-hmm.
[17:08] Yeah, I don't know why.
[17:08] Or is it like a feeling of you worry that you're then trapped into it or they're going to rule your decisions or rule your life?
[17:14] Yeah, yeah.
[17:16] Are values unchanged?
[17:17] Like are they, you pick them when you're young and that's it?
[17:20] No.
[17:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[17:23] I pulled one off the bench.
[17:25] Recently, I've got a new one.
[17:26] Oh, really?
[17:26] It's great.
[17:28] Can I ask what it is or is it private value?
[17:31] Private.
[17:31] No, it's not private.
[17:32] I'm trying to work out if it goes against the value to say.
[17:35] Oh, okay.
[17:37] Privacy.
[17:43] No, I've had two and then for ages I was like, I wish I could have a third.
[17:50] Because the person who got me to do the activity was like, you choose two.
[17:54] And then, oh, it would be so great if this would be so helpful, but no, I can't.
[17:58] And then I was like, actually, no, I can't.
[17:59] Oh, well, I guess I can't be the person I want to be.
[18:01] Yeah.
[18:03] So for a long time I had kind and humble.
[18:08] And the reason I have them is for me, whenever I have a very difficult decision to make, I just go to them and it always makes a decision so much easier to make.
[18:16] Yeah.
[18:17] That's where they work for me.
[18:19] So kind and humble.
[18:20] And then the one I've got off the bench recently and now is in full rotation is generosity.
[18:28] And they just help so many situations.
[18:29] Yeah.
[18:30] Yeah.
[18:30] Amazing.
[18:31] Mm-hmm.
[18:31] That's great.
[18:32] Yeah.
[18:32] And that's a really good point too, and that is that our values are evolving and changing and they will evolve and change based on kind of what part of life we're in.
[18:43] So it's almost like, yeah, they can come off the bench, they can come on, they come off.
[18:47] You might get new ones that weren't even ever on the bench.
[18:50] And that's absolutely okay.
[18:53] It's around connection.
[18:55] rather than disconnection that's really the important piece in there.
[18:58] Connection to you.
[18:59] That they connect to you?
[19:00] Connection to values of any kind.
[19:02] Yeah.
[19:03] Yeah.
[19:03] And do they need to be like how specific or general should they be?
[19:07] Like I'm trying to work out like is my value, like I would like to be a really, really good dad.
[19:14] So is my value being a good dad or is my value care?
[19:19] Yeah, I would unpack it more because a good comes as a dichotomy.
[19:23] I'm a good or a bad dad and that's not a value.
[19:26] Yeah.
[19:27] So we would look more at what are the qualities of a good dad?
[19:31] And so that would then perhaps highlight my values.
[19:34] So, for example...
[19:35] Reliable.
[19:37] Yeah, being reliable.
[19:38] And actually, let me just tell you really briefly what values are from an ACT point of view.
[19:42] Yeah.
[19:43] Act being...
[19:44] Acceptance and commitment therapy.
[19:45] Yep.
[19:46] So if we see values as like a direction, so life's directions.
[19:52] Yep.
[19:53] So a value is like heading west.
[19:55] We never reach west, but it is an ongoing direction.
[20:00] And we can almost see values as like a compass.
[20:02] They allow us to know where we're heading.
[20:05] Mm-hmm.
[20:06] Yeah.
[20:07] Goals are different from values, and I will unpack this because it's really important.
[20:12] But a goal might be, I'm going to climb to the top of that mountain in order to keep heading west.
[20:16] Yeah.
[20:16] There might be other routes that I can take.
[20:18] Doesn't mean that that mountain is necessary.
[20:20] Yeah.
[20:21] But a goal I can tick off.
[20:23] Mm-hmm.
[20:23] So I can definitively say, yes, I've done that, tick it off.
[20:26] But for example, being a loving partner, we never tick off.
[20:30] We can never definitively say, yep, I've done that and now I can rest.
[20:34] Yeah.
[20:34] And then like being a loving partner, loving feels, I guess all values are kind of subjective.
[20:42] But like what is loving to one person is different to another person.
[20:44] Yeah.
[20:45] But do you just interpret that how you interpret it?
[20:46] Yeah, and then we can be even more specific.
[20:49] So if I saw you being a loving partner, what would I see?
[20:54] So what would be the actions that would tell me that you were being loving?
[20:59] If I was to be, like if we think about values in being a partner or being a parent or being a friend, being caring, being nurturing, being open, being accepting.
[21:11] So the being word is also really helpful.
[21:14] Yeah.
[21:15] So it's a doing word.
[21:17] So a value is like a doing word.
[21:20] Yeah.
[21:21] It's an ongoing, infinite quality of behavior.
[21:26] Yeah.
[21:26] It makes it more active.
[21:28] I guess it's like it's loving instead of love.
[21:31] Yes, yep, yep.
[21:34] Our values are absolutely unique to us and freely chosen.
[21:39] And when I say they're freely chosen, they are not the values of other people.
[21:44] But I think so often we can get really hooked into maybe our family of origin and expectations, shoulds, and in particular stories around like the good girl or the good boy.
[21:59] Yep.
[22:01] And this is why it's really important that we can in some ways unpack what we value because so often we've lost total connection to what they are.
[22:12] And therefore, if I've lost connection with my values, it's like I've lost direction.
[22:20] There's one other thing I wanted to mention in relation to values, which is around experiences where there are obstacles to getting where you want to be.
[22:29] And an example of this might be infertility, being single, not being able to afford something, for example.
[22:39] And if we use like having a baby as an example, and perhaps, you know, for whatever reason, whatever's happened in your life, it's...
[22:48] not happening or not likely to happen.
[22:51] You know, of course that is going to bring up a lot of grief if this is something that's particularly important to you.
[22:56] And you might be thinking, for example, that, well, like my values, I can't live by my values if I can't experience motherhood or fatherhood, for example.
[23:05] And, you know, yes, this is really very painful work, but what are the values underlying being a mum or being a dad or being a caregiver?
[23:17] And so then we get to what is it that's important about that for you and how else can we meet those sorts of behaviours.
[23:27] So, for example, being a mum might be that I'm enacting values around nurturing or caring or adventure or excitement.
[23:41] just because this doesn't happen for me, and really deeply acknowledging the pain with that, but just because that doesn't happen for me does not mean that I cannot continue to act in accordance with those values.
[23:55] So, for example, how can I show up to nurturing?
[23:58] Maybe it's that I'm really actively involved in nurturing my nieces and nephews or that I'm really nurturing in the work that I'm doing or that I'm nurturing with my pet or I'm nurturing with elderly parents or grandparents.
[24:14] So that never ends.
[24:17] We can still act consistently with these values even if we can't access the thing that we'd really like to.
[24:24] So it's like the direction can remain the same.
[24:26] The direction is still there.
[24:28] But the road looks different.
[24:29] Correct.
[24:30] Yep.
[24:31] If you think about that as like the mountain.
[24:34] So we're not taking the mountain pathway and, you know, yes, again, we face a lot of uncomfortable feelings around that not being an option.
[24:42] But there are all these other options here that we can actively pursue that are in line with this value here.
[24:49] Yep.
[24:50] Awesome.
[24:51] Does it become easier to name your values as you get older?
[24:57] Or like I get the sense that where I'm at now in life, it would be much easier to correctly name my values.
[25:05] I think if I did it when I was younger, I would definitely go down the should.
[25:10] I should be this person.
[25:13] Is that a fair thing to say?
[25:14] No.
[25:15] Yeah, I think that that can be the case.
[25:16] I think that with maturity and we start to gain a greater sense of the self, I think that that can become clearer.
[25:24] But that's not always the case, definitely.
[25:26] You know, that so often when we're existing on automatic pilot and trying to get rid of uncomfortable feelings or just getting really hooked into the busyness of life, of going through the motions, like, for example, we get really hooked into goals.
[25:45] This is hugely generalising.
[25:47] I'm just going to use this as an example.
[25:49] The goal is to get a job, to meet someone, to get married,
[25:56] to have children, to work and to do all these things.
[26:01] And then we come across like a midlife crisis because all I've been doing is attaching meaning to the goals with no sense of purpose and no sense of meaning around those goals.
[26:14] Does that kind of resonate?
[26:15] Mm-hmm.
[26:15] Yeah.
[26:16] Yeah.
[26:17] So it's really common that after a big event, whether, I mean, this is extremely common after a wedding, is that people will feel flat and that people might feel a bit aimless or a bit lost or swiftly move on to the next milestone that's required.
[26:37] Are you talking about like your own wedding or going to a wedding in general?
[26:41] If you or the person getting married, we have this big lead up to a wedding, you're organising, it's like all around this wedding.
[26:49] A big milestone, yeah.
[26:50] A big milestone, and then you engage in the big milestone and then it finishes.
[26:55] Now, if we're disconnected from our values, then it is not uncommon that we might feel quite depressed after that milestone has been completed.
[27:05] And in part, that can be because
[27:09] we haven't actually connected the values to the wedding.
[27:14] So what is the wedding in aid of?
[27:17] What is the wedding serving?
[27:19] So the wedding is representing, obviously it's representing, like to do with partnership, for example.
[27:26] The values could be things like loyalty.
[27:27] It could be being committed.
[27:29] It could be nurturing.
[27:32] It could be caring.
[27:33] It could be any number of those things.
[27:35] And when we're disconnected from what's the value underneath this goal?
[27:41] It sets us up to feeling empty and it often sets us up to feel, uh, or certainly to be more vulnerable, to feeling numbness, to feeling kind of like a loss of vitality.
[27:54] Yeah.
[27:54] To feeling almost like dead inside.
[27:58] Yeah.
[27:59] Yeah.
[28:00] I wondered if we've just finished the off to us anyway, we've just finished the live tour.
[28:06] And I've been feeling so good since it finished and haven't had a sort of come down at all from it ending.
[28:13] But I also haven't, I don't think I've like paused to like celebrate the achievement at all.
[28:19] And I was wondering in my mind if that was a bad thing that I hadn't done that.
[28:22] But I'm starting to think maybe it's because what I've, I've just been so...
[28:26] Proud of what we achieved, but also like I think maybe I've been attaching the whole experience closer to values than achievement of a goal.
[28:36] Maybe.
[28:37] I very much get that sense.
[28:38] And I think also not to be too specific, Josh, but I also know that, you know, as part of those shows, I think there was a great example of you living by your values in taking the risk to sing and to write a song.
[28:51] Oh, yeah.
[28:52] And then the experience of connection with people.
[28:54] Yeah, definitely.
[28:55] It was a huge one, which I think has got to be a value of mine.
[28:59] 100%, yeah.
[29:00] Yeah.
[29:00] So, yeah, so just having experienced that rather than seeing it as an achievement that we've done means that maybe that's why I haven't had it come down.
[29:10] Maybe it's a good thing that I haven't celebrated as like a, you know, like a stop and how good was that we sold a certain amount of tickets or something like that.
[29:18] Yeah.
[29:19] Yeah, well, in some ways the actions that sit with the values are ongoing.
[29:26] So the show is finished, but you're still connected to the importance of and the meaning of that.
[29:33] Yeah.
[29:34] And that never ends.
[29:36] Yeah.
[29:37] So our desire and our yearning for connection, for example, that we never tick that off.
[29:43] We never get like it's fully actualised or fully achieved.
[29:48] There is always then the next opportunity and the next and the next.
[29:53] I'd love to, this is rare of me to bring up a football example.
[29:57] Go on, mate.
[29:59] I'd love to hear what, you know how Joel Selwood in his last grand final in Geelong was like?
[30:04] Yeah.
[30:05] It seemed the whole day seemed to be about other people.
[30:08] He was making other people's day.
[30:09] Yeah.
[30:09] Over and over again.
[30:11] I'd love to hear the question asked of him, what it felt like after winning grand finals when he was younger.
[30:17] Because he would have won a grand final early in his career, wouldn't he?
[30:20] Or did he not?
[30:21] I'm not sure.
[30:22] Geelong, probably.
[30:24] I feel like Geelong have won so many.
[30:26] I got this wrong with Rhys Cogger, so I'm a bit gunshot here.
[30:28] But the difference when he was younger as opposed to that, whether there was a come down or whether that continued.
[30:33] Because watching that day, it looked like a very values-driven day.
[30:38] Even like the footy was almost secondary.
[30:41] He ran through the banner with Gary Ablett's son.
[30:46] He invited as a kid Down Syndrome who was part of the footy club who he saw him after
[30:52] literally carried him over the fence to involve him in the celebrations.
[30:55] Yeah.
[30:56] He did so much for other people, yeah.
[30:57] Yeah.
[30:58] Interested to know.
[31:00] Values sound very similar if not adjacent to purpose.
[31:05] Is there a crossover?
[31:06] Yes, that's a really interesting question.
[31:08] And so like –
[31:11] I want to just be really kind of clear that there are lots of interpretations of this.
[31:15] This is just the way that I work and my kind of sense around it.
[31:19] So we could potentially say that most of, this is going to sound weird, most of human behaviour is purposeful.
[31:29] So for example, I'm going to use the party as another example.
[31:32] You decide to go to the party and you're so anxious that you drink.
[31:39] The drinking is purposeful.
[31:41] The choice of behaviour there is purposeful.
[31:44] And the purpose is to avoid pain.
[31:47] Okay?
[31:48] So all of our behaviour, no, I shouldn't say all, a lot, most of our behaviour has a purpose.
[31:54] The greater question is which purpose?
[31:57] And if you could choose a purpose now, what would it be?
[32:02] So rather than it being around, I've lost my purpose, it's more actually let's construct and let's cultivate awareness of other purposes other than the ones that I'm making to avoid discomfort.
[32:17] Because, and maybe this is what you mean, but I think I was more meaning like you come up with a purpose for your, is this what you're talking about?
[32:26] Yeah, it is.
[32:27] Yeah.
[32:27] Because I came up with a purpose and I met Ben Crow and like he just said this, you should think about a purpose.
[32:32] And I just went and thought about it.
[32:34] And I guess it does align with values, but also the way that he told me to think about it was what do I do?
[32:43] And how does it positively affect other people?
[32:46] Yeah.
[32:47] So I guess it's more kind of like outward looking.
[32:50] I guess values are as well to a certain, or can be.
[32:53] Because even like you, when you said your values are like kind and humble, it's like that perfectly lines up.
[32:59] I feel like that explains so much about...
[33:02] who you are and how you conduct yourself and generosity, even though it's just been brought onto the ground.
[33:08] But I feel like that's also very much a part of who you are.
[33:13] And so I think like purpose and values, I just think, well, I've got a purpose, but I feel like my purpose is so connected to my work, whereas values sounds like it's much broader.
[33:26] Yeah, yeah.
[33:27] I think that's a really great example.
[33:29] And we can actually, like in doing values work, we could actually, and certainly ActWorks does this as well, we could certainly break it down into domains.
[33:37] So, for example, there are typically like 10 domains of valued living.
[33:42] So things like family, career, personal growth, spirituality, parenting.
[33:49] So there's these domains that we can really kind of hone in on.
[33:54] And we may potentially have different values showing up in each of those areas.
[34:00] But when we bring them all together, it's those all together that kind of create greater meaning and purpose.
[34:06] And if we look at the research around what cultivates wellbeing, and I've spoken about this in a previous episode, are two aspects.
[34:15] It's hedonic wellness.
[34:16] or hedonic happiness, which is around, you know, kind of pleasurable experiences.
[34:21] And then it's eudaimonic happiness or wellbeing.
[34:24] And the eudaimonic happiness is what gives us meaning and purpose and values construct that direction for us.
[34:35] Desk for some values.
[34:37] So two of my values are having a fight right now.
[34:40] They're actually punching on in my head.
[34:42] I don't want to say something, but they're...
[34:45] So we asked Dr. M to help with the Resilience Project put together our next six-month wellbeing journal.
[34:53] And so this is going against humility talking about it.
[34:56] I think it's kind because people will help people.
[34:58] It's a resource to help people.
[34:59] But the first thing that Em did was she said, I want to have values sitting right at the front of the journal so that before people go on practicing gratitude, empathy and mindfulness, they know what their values are and they're at the forefront of all that they do within this journal.
[35:12] And it was really, and so I'm actually, literally, there's like 40 values there that you can sort of go through and you can circle some values for yourself there, which I think has been so helpful for people.
[35:24] So is there a discount code for that journal?
[35:27] There's a generosity here.
[35:29] Oh, can I just have one then?
[35:34] So, yeah, that was just...
[35:37] For me to look at that, someone who already had them, it was so great to look at that.
[35:41] So I'm doing the journal now and it's funny how often your values feature and guide anytime you're unsure the values point you in the right direction.
[35:52] Yes.
[35:53] They are very genuinely like a compass to kind of really keep you on track.
[35:59] Um,
[36:01] The thing that really stands out to me as being really important is that they create the why.
[36:07] So they create the why for all of your choices of direction and behaviour.
[36:15] An example, you know, maybe you go to the gym and maybe you've set these goals around what you want to do, what you want to reach.
[36:24] But there's a value that sits underneath that and that's what we need to uncover.
[36:29] So commonly I might hear like, I value being healthy.
[36:31] Well, to be very honest with you, being healthy is not a value.
[36:36] It's a means to an end.
[36:38] And so let me ask you one more question.
[36:40] If I'm healthy, what does that allow me to do?
[36:45] So being healthy means what?
[36:48] Yeah, you can be there for the people in your life.
[36:50] Yeah, yeah.
[36:51] So then we uncover values.
[36:53] Mm.
[36:54] So being healthy means that... You can be playful.
[36:58] Yes.
[36:58] That kind of stuff.
[36:59] Yeah, yeah.
[37:00] So sometimes we can kind of get almost a bit too global with what we're thinking we want and how we want to be in the world.
[37:09] Let's be more specific.
[37:10] So if you were to slow down, maybe you're having trouble getting to the gym or you're having trouble exercising, there's quite a lot of research that says that doing a bit of values work before you go actually allows far greater sense of motivation.
[37:24] So if you can check in with your values and go, I'm showing up today and I'm showing up because this is part of me being a leader
[37:34] energetic mum or engaged mum or it means that I can then show up to my partner in a more present way so that the action there is supporting the underlying value.
[37:50] Yeah.
[37:51] What's the, it might be obvious, but worth asking, I think, what's the cost of not living by your values?
[37:57] Yeah.
[37:59] Oh, my head just went like, so much, so much.
[38:04] There's so much cost to it.
[38:05] Yes, it's a really expensive cost.
[38:08] Like I said at the beginning, it's when we're not living by our values, it costs us our life.
[38:14] Like we're spending so much energy and so much time trying to get rid of the pain that's here.
[38:20] And often we spend all this energy with the expectation that I can only live by my values when this is resolved.
[38:29] Mm-hmm.
[38:30] So I have to wait until I'm better before I can do X, Y, and Z.
[38:35] Really, really common.
[38:38] The thing about values is that it is something that can be done right now.
[38:43] We can be doing it right now, even in the presence of a lot of struggle and a lot of suffering.
[38:48] It's, in fact, in some ways like the entryway out of suffering.
[38:51] Mm-hmm.
[38:52] An example of this might be maybe you've experienced divorce and that is an extremely painful experience.
[39:03] And the thought of dating again feels very distressing.
[39:07] And so the automatic thought is that is not for me.
[39:11] I can't be in another relationship.
[39:15] The presence of pain there speaks volumes actually about what is important, is that we may really deeply value intimacy and we may really deeply value being in a loving and caring relationship or being a loving and caring partner.
[39:33] But the pain and the thought of losing that again keeps me out of it.
[39:40] Yeah, I imagine that under what you just said, not always, because I'm sure there are many factors, but often the size of the pain would indicate the size of the value as well.
[39:50] Yes.
[39:50] Yeah.
[39:51] Absolutely.
[39:52] It ties in so significantly with grief as well.
[39:55] Yeah.
[39:56] Yeah.
[39:56] Wow.
[39:58] Yeah.
[39:58] So wherever it's, it's a very simple saying, but wherever pain is, here's what we value.
[40:05] Where there's smoke, there's fire.
[40:06] Exactly, exactly.
[40:08] Yeah.
[40:09] And we see this so... Actual fire.
[40:12] F-Y-R-E. F-Y-R-E. What do you mean, actual fire?
[40:16] Wasn't that like the thing that cool people say?
[40:18] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[40:18] Like if something's good, it's like it's actual fire.
[40:20] Yeah, so not literal fire.
[40:22] No, no, not literal fire.
[40:23] Actual fire.
[40:24] Yeah.
[40:24] Is that how it's spelled when you say it?
[40:26] I would say F-I-Y-A.
[40:29] But George will know.
[40:32] the coolest guy we know george is the coolest man we know george how do you spell fire f f f i f i y a oh you're right oh yeah okay things are looking up for me so from a values point of view is fire where there's smoke there's fire correct yes correct definitely like it's from in a clinical sense of course yeah definitely yeah so
[41:00] You know, this is a really tricky thing to talk about, but for anyone that has experienced grief, the loss of someone or maybe has been exposed to a diagnosis, that exposure to the finite nature of living brings to light the things that are deeply important to you.
[41:26] And suddenly those things are the things that we want so desperately to be focusing on and to living for.
[41:37] But so often in like the day to day of living, we lose connection with just how finite our lives are and we get caught in the struggle.
[41:49] And that's when we can start to feel really lost.
[41:53] I think everyone should just think about that for a bit.
[41:56] We'll just give them 30 seconds.
[41:58] Of silence?
[41:59] Yeah, why not?
[42:00] No, we shouldn't do that, but I just thought it was a really significant thing to say.
[42:04] And so the big questions here are, what is it that you want your life to stand for?
[42:11] How is it that you want to live in this world knowing that it will end?
[42:17] And they can feel like very overwhelming questions.
[42:21] And they can also trigger a lot of feelings potentially of sadness or despair that I haven't been living this way.
[42:29] I really, sometimes, some episodes you do and I feel like you are talking directly to me and I feel like this one is definitely one of them.
[42:38] Because I feel like I've got two voices in my head that both sound very convincing.
[42:44] Just when I think I know which one is right, I hear the other one and I'm like, yeah, but that voice, I don't want to let go of that one.
[42:53] And I don't know how this will end, how like my, I don't know if you want to call it obsession, but this like this attachment I have to work and to making quality work.
[43:08] I don't know where it comes from, why I've got it, but there is this voice in my head going like, make things that matter, that are great, that are memorable, unique.
[43:23] That is so important to me.
[43:25] But then what I'm terrible at is...
[43:30] balancing that desire, obsession, whatever it is, at times I'd say almost addiction, how I balance that with the other voice and that other voice, which I kind of side with more, the other voice saying like, spend time, quality time, spend quality time with the people that you love.
[43:54] Mm-hmm.
[43:54] This is the struggle that I have constantly.
[43:57] And it's a big struggle with Jam and I.
[44:00] Well, to be honest, I kind of like take our relationship for granted because I'm like, well, if I don't put my attention to the work that will suffer.
[44:07] And then the relationship pays the price.
[44:11] So I've got these two voices and I'm like, well, if I start spending too much time with my relationship, I don't have enough time to make all this work that I really want to do.
[44:19] And so it's a weird conundrum in my head that I'm constantly dealing with.
[44:24] I'm so aware of it.
[44:25] And in many ways, I know the right answer.
[44:28] But it's still very, very hard to, I don't know if that's just me or if that's a common thing, but that it feels very hard for me to make decisions and be the person that I want to be.
[44:44] That's really hard.
[44:46] Yep.
[44:46] Yeah, it's really hard and there's so much in there that I would kind of like to unpack and just do it really... Yeah, at arm's length.
[44:54] Yes.
[44:55] The person that you want to be, who's that person?
[44:59] It's someone who prioritizes the people in their life more than anything else and actively puts the same thought and creativity and care into my relationships as I do with my work because I currently don't do that.
[45:30] And I'm so aware of it, but I've just never been that person.
[45:32] So it's very, very hard is probably reductive and the wrong word, but it's like, it's just, I find it difficult.
[45:41] I find it difficult to do that because it's just not naturally how I think.
[45:44] I naturally think like, how can I, how can I, um, uh, be, well, it sounds weird to say, but how can I try and be brilliant in, in a work sense?
[45:56] Whereas I know that I should be focusing on, which not only the people in my life will benefit from, but I'll benefit from ultimately, is like I want to be brilliant, a brilliant partner or a brilliant son or brother.
[46:13] But for whatever reason, that's not what I think about first.
[46:18] Do you notice how much judging is going on as you're talking about that?
[46:22] What do you mean?
[46:23] So the shooting and the evaluative components.
[46:29] So I should be brilliant or I know what I should be doing.
[46:35] So to me, there's like qualities in there around expectations rather than like, rather than like what's underneath that or what's actually important in there around the quality with which you want to show up to those things.
[46:51] So for example, when you talk about being caring, being caring doesn't mean being caring 100% of the time, right?
[47:02] And being caring or any value that we hold is bi-directional.
[47:06] And so what I mean by that is that, and the reason I brought up the shoulds is because I can hear, I can hear even like the sneaky little inner critic that's coming in there and giving yourself a bit of a hard time around the decisions you're making.
[47:18] Oh, I give myself such a hard time about it.
[47:21] Yeah.
[47:22] But I don't know how to get out of it.
[47:23] Yeah.
[47:24] Yeah.
[47:25] So, you know, of course we can kind of bring some compassion to how hard this feels around the fact that we have limited time.
[47:33] And that's what feels so hard about this is, you know, that yes, we're going to have to make decisions and something will come at a cost.
[47:40] But when I'm present with my partner, how do I show up to those values then?
[47:45] And when I'm present with my work, how do I show up to my values then?
[47:48] How do I clock the inner critic that's maybe driving the striving part?
[47:54] So the part that's wanting me to be brilliant and to have work be valued?
[48:01] How do I kind of slow down enough to notice, you know, I'm going to pause there today because I am enough as I am right now.
[48:10] I could go on.
[48:10] I don't want to go too much down that rabbit hole.
[48:13] But I just wanted just to notice how hard it is to unpack the shoulds and the expectations from like what our deepest hearts desires are rather than what I should value.
[48:28] Just to go over that, when you have values,
[48:31] Like say kindness in front of them, you could be kind to the people you're with.
[48:36] Then when you're working, now I can be kind to that part of myself that so desperately wants to just be brilliant.
[48:42] And I can fulfill that.
[48:45] And that's a kindness or whatever the value is.
[48:48] But you can apply it to both parts of your life.
[48:50] And I think in doing so, you're at least relieved that anxiety that sits around.
[48:56] Well, if I'm doing one thing that I can't, like I'm doing work, so that means I'm not a...
[49:00] kind person or if I'm with Gemma or whatever it is.
[49:03] I'd be not my spot to say that.
[49:06] No, I think that that feels really spot on.
[49:08] And I also want to emphasize that when we notice, when we kind of come to recognize that maybe I've acted inconsistently with what I value, or there's some behavior that I've done that is in the opposite direction of what my values are.
[49:21] I mean, of course, what happens is that the mind's going to start judging, just like what you described then before, it's going to really probably give us quite a hard time.
[49:29] And so there's the moment there to pause and to notice and then to, like I said before, offer ourselves some compassion and then we reconnect with it.
[49:38] So the real kind of point of pain is when there's a chronic disconnection from our values.
[49:46] Mm-hmm.
[49:48] The chronic disconnection is really the kind of place that leads us down into despairing, into depression, into dysfunctional relationships.
[49:56] It's the reconnection that's key.
[49:58] And so you might disconnect, but then you come back again.
[50:01] So whenever we're reconnecting, we're like, aha, here I am again.
[50:06] And so we can constantly reconnect.
[50:09] Like this is a very silly example.
[50:12] Flossing my teeth.
[50:14] I know that the act of flossing my teeth will be in line with living a healthy life and being there for my kids and all that sort of stuff, okay, in the broader sense of the word.
[50:26] I find it very annoying, but I know that it's important.
[50:29] If I miss a day of flossing, in the past, history would tell me that like then I'm done for.
[50:34] Like there'll be no more flossing until I see the dentist in six months' time.
[50:38] The greatest challenge is, okay, pausing here.
[50:41] I reconnect, I reconnect with it again.
[50:43] And this would be an action that's in line with what I value.
[50:46] And so here I am back again tomorrow.
[50:49] And this is the same in our, the way we encounter work, you know, personal growth in parenting, in friendships is okay.
[50:57] So it didn't work out.
[50:58] I didn't maybe show up in the way that I wanted to show up, but me berating myself or me opting out or me avoiding is actually moving me further and further away from that value direction.
[51:12] This is probably too big.
[51:13] This is probably another episode in itself what I'm about to ask.
[51:15] But what about the sense of failure that accompanies portraying your values through the form of an addiction?
[51:31] That is a really big question.
[51:33] Yeah, sorry.
[51:34] No, no, no.
[51:34] It's really important.
[51:36] Because I just want, because I feel, it feels to me like addiction by its nature is going to be something that transgresses your boundaries of your values all the time and seemingly without the ability or the sense of the inability to change that behaviour.
[51:57] It's deeply painful.
[51:58] Yeah.
[51:59] Yeah.
[52:00] And, you know, if again we come back to this idea of a life not being lived, you know, I think that for many people that have suffered in addiction, there is very strong kind of feeling of grief that I'm not living, that there's an absence of the life that I'd like to live.
[52:14] Yeah.
[52:14] Yeah, absolutely.
[52:15] I think it probably requires a lot of more nuanced feelings
[52:20] And it would be amazing to get like an addictions expert actually to come and talk about that.
[52:24] Yeah.
[52:26] But that's a prime example of how our desire to avoid discomfort takes us further away from the way we want to show up.
[52:36] Absolutely.
[52:37] being one of the main sort of causes of addiction to avoid discomfort.
[52:42] I mean, there are so many people that talk about this in terms of the association between addiction and trauma and particularly early childhood trauma.
[52:49] The behaviour of addiction is here to help alleviate the suffering that has been here for other reasons.
[52:56] Yeah.
[52:56] But then the addictive behaviour then becomes its own form of suffering.
[53:00] Yeah.
[53:01] Yeah.
[53:01] Yeah.
[53:02] And, you know, for anyone that has experienced addiction or has a family member that has addiction experiences, then of course you will know this very intimately, the pain of not being able to live the life that you want and to live really freely too.
[53:17] Yeah.
[53:19] Yeah, very profound.
[53:20] Sorry, I didn't mean to throw a big one at you.
[53:22] No, no, I think that's a very, like, personal question.
[53:24] Such an important acknowledgement, I reckon, for people listening to this going, I would love so much to do that, but I'm stuck.
[53:29] Stuck, yeah.
[53:30] Yeah, and in fact, I think that's such a really important word in there is being stuck.
[53:36] And stuckness in of itself really is almost like when we've lost connection with values.
[53:44] So values is a way out of being stuck.
[53:46] Yeah.
[53:47] Really.
[53:47] Yeah.
[53:48] Yeah.
[53:48] And, you know, even then this is extremely challenging.
[53:53] And, you know, I know doing this work in, in my practice, in the face of really horrendous trauma, and the pain is so big.
[54:04] Now, of course, all you want to do is get rid of it.
[54:07] Of course, you want this pain to go away.
[54:08] So the really challenging work in there is like, okay, what do I want to stand for in the face of all this suffering?
[54:18] How do I want to stand up in the midst of all of this?
[54:23] And even from today, what is one small action that would be heading towards something that I value, something that is kind of deep in my heart that is important?
[54:34] It's a really nicely put point in that, yeah, it reminds me a little bit in a strange way, but something James Clear was saying when we had him on about habits, but that at least if you're taking a step in the direction of the value, that's what matters.
[54:51] Yes.
[54:51] Yeah.
[54:52] Yeah.
[54:52] Yeah, you're casting a vote for that.
[54:54] Yeah, I loved that.
[54:55] Yeah, I was thinking of the trajectory rather than goal, but yeah, both things work for that.
[54:59] Yeah, yeah.
[55:00] Because the thing is there is no end point there.
[55:02] Yeah.
[55:03] Um, and if we can kind of keep this in mind is that we're not trying to achieve anything here, but one small movement towards this value direction.
[55:13] Um, it may be, you know, one text message that you send to a friend that you haven't spoken to for ages.
[55:20] It could be making the bed.
[55:22] It could be going for a walk for a hundred meters.
[55:25] That one action is, is in line.
[55:29] With the life that I want to be living.
[55:31] Yeah.
[55:34] Beautiful.
[55:34] Mm-hmm.
[55:36] So it feels important that I actually do talk about how we get like an understanding of our values.
[55:42] And yes, absolutely, you can buy the journal for sure as a good starting point.
[55:46] There are so many, so many different ways in which we can really kind of hone in on constructing this kind of life direction or constructing our values.
[55:55] There's an exercise, I've mentioned it before.
[55:59] This is an exercise that's really around honing in on really what it is that's important to you, how you want to be in the world
[56:05] how you want to show up.
[56:07] And it's done quite commonly, certainly in ACT and in lots of different forms of therapy as well.
[56:14] And there's lots of different incarnations of it.
[56:16] But basically what I might do, actually for anyone that's listening, I'm going to do
[56:21] Please skip forward if it feels uncomfortable or if it brings up anything that feels overwhelming.
[56:25] So kind of like really entering, I guess, with your own risk here.
[56:30] If you're noticing uncomfortable feelings showing up, then please take some time to care for yourself or to seek kind of any advice around this.
[56:38] Okay, so what I might invite you to do then is to, if you want to, is to close the eyes.
[56:42] If you prefer not, just leaving them open.
[56:46] And I'm just going to ask you to imagine that it's a milestone birthday.
[56:52] So maybe, maybe it's 70, maybe it's 80, maybe it's younger than that.
[57:01] And I'm just going to invite you to imagine that there are speeches and someone stands up to make a speech about you.
[57:13] So first of all, kind of taking a moment to think about who this first person might be.
[57:16] It's completely fanciful, so this person can be alive or dead.
[57:24] Can be a person in your life or not in your life.
[57:28] And inviting you to think about what you would like them to say about how you have lived in this world.
[57:41] So taking a moment really to let these words land with you, noticing that the mind might pull you into judging or comparing or other unpleasant feelings, and then coming back to noticing what you're hearing this person say about you, what you'd like them to be saying about how you've lived in this life.
[58:14] And now letting that person sit down and another person stands up.
[58:20] So taking a moment now to pick somebody else that you would like to speak about you.
[58:27] And noticing now what it is that they're saying.
[58:32] How it is that they're speaking about you.
[58:38] What it is that you would like them to be saying about how you have lived in this world.
[58:42] What it is that you have stood for.
[58:48] If at any point it feels overwhelming, noticing the feet touching the ground, coming back to feeling present in this room.
[58:55] And just allowing these words to really be felt and landing in the body.
[59:11] And then whenever you're already coming back into the room.
[59:15] I won't ask you to share what it is that you heard and what it is that you noticed.
[59:22] But how did it feel to do that?
[59:26] Quite physical.
[59:29] Like in my gut.
[59:30] That's where I felt it.
[59:33] Yeah.
[59:33] Yeah, it wasn't enjoyable.
[59:38] It wasn't?
[59:39] No.
[59:39] Yeah, it was quite...
[59:42] Yeah, my thoughts were going all over the shop.
[59:46] It was kind of confronting, actually.
[59:48] Yeah, yeah.
[59:49] But I'm sure Hamish said some funny things as part of the speech.
[59:53] It was a riot.
[59:55] I think I can only, by saying a little bit of what I have to say that to, but I think it was interesting that I spent almost the whole time oscillating between who was speaking because I couldn't work out who should be speaking.
[1:00:08] Yeah, that's so interesting.
[1:00:10] Pretty interesting.
[1:00:11] I couldn't even get past that.
[1:00:13] Yeah, that's very common actually.
[1:00:14] Yeah.
[1:00:15] Yeah.
[1:00:16] But I think this is the thing is that values work is absolutely tied into our points of pain.
[1:00:23] And so, you know, it might feel like on the surface again like this lovely exercise to imagine all these nice things that people would say about us.
[1:00:30] But I think in many ways this will bring up
[1:00:32] you know, these points of pain here or the feelings of discomfort that perhaps I'm not living in the way that I would like these people to be able to talk about me.
[1:00:40] Or maybe even you can't think of what they would say.
[1:00:43] Yeah, I was blank.
[1:00:45] Yeah.
[1:00:46] I was, I had them saying, like putting on a show almost, like saying the things, like being really generous, but,
[1:00:59] And I was like, they're not telling the whole truth.
[1:01:03] Like, you know what I mean?
[1:01:05] Like I was like, they were saying the right thing that you would say at a birthday, you know, but it's like, but I, but, it's kind of weird actually.
[1:01:17] I was thinking of it as a funeral.
[1:01:22] I know you said birthday.
[1:01:23] Yeah.
[1:01:24] But I just realized that I was actually thinking of it like I wasn't there.
[1:01:27] Yeah.
[1:01:29] Weird.
[1:01:30] So can I, I'm confused or not the right word, interested I think is the right word for both of you who found that task difficult.
[1:01:40] I have stood next to you 24 times while people have queued up on the national tour.
[1:01:46] After the tour, we go and we stand outside the front of the venue and people can come and chat to us.
[1:01:50] And I've heard what people say about what you guys mean to them and the work you've done and what it means and how much it's changed their life and how amazing you both are.
[1:02:00] I find it fascinating that those things, like, haven't given you the...
[1:02:10] not aptitude, the mindset when we do that activity to be able to think of that.
[1:02:15] It seemed like a difficult thing to think of what good things people might say.
[1:02:19] But I've just listened to people.
[1:02:21] Yeah, but they're not my intimate relationships.
[1:02:26] I know.
[1:02:27] With all due respect to them, they're not speaking at my birthday.
[1:02:29] No, I know, but surely that gives you some clues to how people see you.
[1:02:35] I think people who listen to the podcast would probably see me a bit differently than like Jam would see me.
[1:02:40] Yeah, very true.
[1:02:40] But like, I still think about like, especially if you're someone who values work so highly and what you do creatively, what you have done creatively has helped a lot of people.
[1:02:49] Yeah, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not.
[1:02:53] Like what I'm insecure about is not the amount of work I do or the, you know, it's not like I'm feeling like I haven't done good work.
[1:03:02] It's what's the cost of that.
[1:03:04] It's the relationship cost of being in the line till midnight.
[1:03:10] Okay.
[1:03:10] You know what I mean?
[1:03:11] Does that make sense?
[1:03:13] Yeah.
[1:03:14] I guess it does.
[1:03:14] Because what you're talking about is more like praise.
[1:03:17] Yeah.
[1:03:18] Well, no, I look at what you've done with the podcast as like, it's very selfless.
[1:03:25] And so I would, you know, I would say to Hamish, if you're going to speak about Ryan, I think you should mention how selfless he's been with all that he's done and all he's given of himself to help other people.
[1:03:37] Yeah, well, maybe that's more, maybe it's more just, but then like with Hamish as a specific example, and I think I've spoken about this before, but like, and people wouldn't be surprised for me to say that Hamish is someone who does very much prioritize the people in his life and he creates magical experiences and memories and it's just, he just likes doing that for people.
[1:04:03] He's very generous.
[1:04:04] Yeah.
[1:04:05] And while he would probably say authentically, Ryan's been very, you know, he's done good work.
[1:04:14] I like the stuff he made.
[1:04:16] He was very, you know, selfless on the podcast.
[1:04:18] He's done good stuff on the podcast.
[1:04:20] But I don't think he would, I don't think he would honestly say, oh, he, he created so many incredible memories for us.
[1:04:32] And is that important to you?
[1:04:34] Yeah.
[1:04:35] Yeah.
[1:04:35] Yeah.
[1:04:37] But it's like, but I can't tell whether that's important to me because he does it or whether it's something I feel like I should value because Hamish, for example, does or Jam does.
[1:04:50] It's different with Hamish and Jam where it's like, I don't know, it's becoming a full therapy session for me.
[1:04:57] But like with Jam, it's like it's something that we've spoken about so much that she would make her so happy if I did like organize more stuff for us and was more with her when I'm with her.
[1:05:14] that's what I'm talking about.
[1:05:16] It's like, yeah, Jam's not saying like, oh, his podcast was great.
[1:05:23] I love the bit when he's saying I'm nervous.
[1:05:28] Yeah, I love his podcast.
[1:05:31] I think, you know, if I might, I think that like when we do that 80th birthday exercise or the 70th, whatever it might be, it's actually exactly the same that what we would do for imagining our own funeral.
[1:05:42] There is a version of that, the same thing.
[1:05:45] And, yeah, I think it feels, it can feel very uncomfortable, but it's also this opportunity that highlights where my values are.
[1:05:53] So if there's pain here, it tells me that there's something in here that I need to pack, there's a value in here that's important.
[1:06:00] Mm-hmm.
[1:06:00] Um, equally, you might do this exercise and, you know, be very clear on how it is that you would like people to be talking about you, um, how it is that you would like to, you know, what you'd like to stand up for in the world, but you may be acting vastly differently to that.
[1:06:17] So this imaginary exercise is not about what you're currently doing.
[1:06:21] It's not about a right or wrong.
[1:06:24] It's about really uncovering and constructing what these values are.
[1:06:30] So if pain is here, it tells me this is deeply important.
[1:06:34] It tells me this is something for me to unpack a little bit more.
[1:06:36] Yeah.
[1:06:38] Does that kind of make sense?
[1:06:39] Totally.
[1:06:40] Yeah.
[1:06:42] That's kind of one avenue.
[1:06:43] And again, like this might feel really uncomfortable doing this, so please seek your own support around this in a lot of ways.
[1:06:50] Another kind of way of uncovering values can be even thinking about when you were little, when would I see you having a great time?
[1:07:00] What were you doing?
[1:07:03] What did you want to be when you were growing up?
[1:07:09] Wow.
[1:07:09] I guess I kind of, I'm doing what I wanted to be when I grow up.
[1:07:12] Yeah.
[1:07:13] And what is like in a valued term, what would that be?
[1:07:27] Valued term.
[1:07:29] So for example, is it being creative?
[1:07:32] Yes.
[1:07:33] Yeah.
[1:07:33] Oh, if that can be one, lock it in.
[1:07:35] Yeah.
[1:07:37] I didn't realise that was...
[1:07:39] I'm just thinking of, like, kind, humble... No, no, no, no.
[1:07:44] Oh, thank you.
[1:07:45] Absolutely, make it both of them.
[1:07:47] Yes, yes.
[1:07:47] Done.
[1:07:47] All right, I'll get my coat.
[1:07:50] No, let me be clear.
[1:07:51] Our values don't have to be all the kind-hearted ones that we think that they can.
[1:07:56] I kind of wish that would be good.
[1:07:59] She has the best voice.
[1:08:00] That's bullshit.
[1:08:03] No, they can be, and like, again, like you can Google list of values.
[1:08:07] There are a million different kinds.
[1:08:10] You know, some of the ones for me, and again, they'll oscillate, learning is a big one for me.
[1:08:14] Learning engagement with education is really like,
[1:08:20] I'm like, I love going to professional development seminars.
[1:08:24] Yeah.
[1:08:24] Really nerdy.
[1:08:25] But that's like, this is a real value for me, understanding and learning.
[1:08:29] So that's not associated with like the kind-hearted stuff, right?
[1:08:33] Yeah.
[1:08:33] It could be something like excitement.
[1:08:36] or adventure, it could be persistence, it could be being industrious.
[1:08:45] There are so many different values that we do need to uncover.
[1:08:51] They are not the ones that we kind of socially prescribe as ideal.
[1:08:56] And this is what feels so important in doing this work is that these are mine and that they are absolutely perfect as they are.
[1:09:05] And they're not for comparison.
[1:09:07] And that's the real struggle.
[1:09:09] Yes, that is a hard one.
[1:09:10] Yep.
[1:09:11] The non-comparison part, because obviously I want huge values, but they don't feel right for me.
[1:09:15] And that's annoying.
[1:09:17] Because they seem better.
[1:09:19] Yeah.
[1:09:19] Kind and humble seems better than being creative, doesn't it?
[1:09:22] But if I was truly creative, I would love to have that as like, that would be an awesome one.
[1:09:26] I would love to have that.
[1:09:27] But I feel like if I did that, I'd be not living my values too often when I make spaghetti bolognese for the fourth night in a row.
[1:09:37] The interesting thing about creativity is that being creative can show up in a million different domains of your life.
[1:09:43] So, for example, being creative with jam.
[1:09:45] Oh, Jesus.
[1:09:47] You got me in.
[1:09:48] It's absolutely true.
[1:09:50] It's not just at work.
[1:09:51] And so the value is almost like hold us here.
[1:09:55] And we can zoom in on them in different ways.
[1:09:58] Yeah.
[1:09:58] So does that make sense?
[1:10:01] Fireworks going off my brain.
[1:10:02] Yeah.
[1:10:02] That's awesome.
[1:10:03] I'm very conscious of the fact that when I talk about my work, I'm very lucky in the sense that I have a job that I really, really love.
[1:10:10] And so I love doing my work.
[1:10:12] And so I'm attached to this thing and, you know, and through my work I can be creative and I can align my values with my work.
[1:10:23] But also I'm very aware of the fact that there are a lot of people who don't work in a job that they love.
[1:10:30] In fact, they might very, very vigorously dislike it.
[1:10:34] But, of course, they have to work.
[1:10:35] They need a job and they need to make money.
[1:10:38] So yeah, I'm just conscious of those people.
[1:10:42] Yeah, I think that's a really great acknowledgement because it's very, very common.
[1:10:48] In some ways, we could almost say that finding your passion and it being your work is like a true, I was going to say miracle, but it's not a miracle.
[1:10:59] there's a great privilege in that absolutely yeah and for so many of us when we're doing a job that we don't like but we feel it's really necessary because we need to make a living and we need to support family and all those sorts of things this is a really big place of pain and so there's lots of different ways in which we could work with that you know obviously
[1:11:24] If it is absolutely necessary, like there are no options, but for me to have this job, then let's look how we relate to the discomfort that's there.
[1:11:33] How can I show up even with the values that I have, even if this work is not what I enjoy?
[1:11:38] Yeah.
[1:11:39] So, for example, if I really value kindness or being kind, how can I enact those values at a workplace that I don't like?
[1:11:49] So, for example, can I act, can I really show up to Jenny who's in the other cubicle and really kind of practice being present with those values if I feel like I have no choice here?
[1:12:00] Does that resonate with you?
[1:12:02] Yeah.
[1:12:02] The other option, of course, is that if we are aware that we have a choice to change or to take a risk, then there's lots of questions in there.
[1:12:15] What is stopping me?
[1:12:16] And most often it's like the fear of the unknown and uncertainty and that it's risky.
[1:12:21] Yeah.
[1:12:23] So, and I will talk about this in another episode actually around working with uncertainty, but yes, the challenge then is, okay, what would I feel about this if I'm still here in a year?
[1:12:36] How will I feel if I'm still here in two years?
[1:12:40] How will I feel if I'm still here in five years?
[1:12:43] And what often will happen is that it will be like,
[1:12:47] Six months, a year, look, I can be okay with that.
[1:12:51] That's okay.
[1:12:52] Two years, that feels not great.
[1:12:54] Five years, not a chance.
[1:12:56] So if in five years there's not a chance that you want to be here, that this is not aligned with like value living, why are you willing to cop it for another six months, another 12 months?
[1:13:10] There's really big questions in there around, what is this costing me?
[1:13:14] And usually it's costing us vitality.
[1:13:17] It's costing us engagement in the world.
[1:13:21] It's costing a lot of things.
[1:13:24] I feel a little bit like, I know you guys have, but the life of Brian in that scene when he's like, you're all- The Monty Python film.
[1:13:32] Monty Python film.
[1:13:33] When they're like, you're all individuals, you're all different.
[1:13:36] And someone goes, I'm not.
[1:13:40] That is, it doesn't get much better than that.
[1:13:49] I feel a little bit like that person when you've been talking about how yours are perfect and stuff.
[1:13:53] Because it occurred to me in both looking back to childhood and looking, doing that activity, they're all about other people and what other people think and what other people.
[1:14:03] think I should.
[1:14:05] Okay.
[1:14:05] So you're trying to think what other people would like you to have as yours.
[1:14:08] Yeah.
[1:14:08] Well, like when I flash forward, I thought I couldn't decide who was speaking because I was worried about who would be offended if they weren't speaking.
[1:14:16] So it was about who should be the person speaking to not upset them.
[1:14:20] And thinking about when I was a child, all the happiest things were doing things with you and Georgia that you and Georgia picked.
[1:14:27] Yeah.
[1:14:27] Right.
[1:14:28] Mm-hmm.
[1:14:29] Yeah.
[1:14:30] So, yeah, I feel like I'm not.
[1:14:35] That's such a great example.
[1:14:37] Yeah, and I think, so this is really complicated.
[1:14:41] Yeah.
[1:14:42] And it takes a lot of pausing to unpack what, you know, what's here.
[1:14:47] Sometimes it can be like we can come to the same answer in lots of different avenues really.
[1:14:52] Something that can also be really helpful are questions like, actually a number of questions, but the first one might be what fires you up?
[1:15:01] What kind of makes you feel angry?
[1:15:04] What do you feel really strongly about?
[1:15:07] Because they all point to values.
[1:15:09] Yeah, yeah.
[1:15:09] Yeah.
[1:15:10] It can be really simple exercises like, I've done this with clients before, like I'll ask them to go home and go through the newspaper and cut out clippings of things that are interesting to them.
[1:15:20] Oh, yeah.
[1:15:22] I'm like, okay, so this is something here.
[1:15:24] This is like sparking an interest.
[1:15:25] This is something kind of giving us a clue about what you find interesting.
[1:15:30] And then we can unpack that even further.
[1:15:32] Yeah, okay.
[1:15:33] Yeah, interesting.
[1:15:34] But like I said, it's hard work.
[1:15:38] And I think for a lot of us, we might even reach kind of like this middle life
[1:15:44] part.
[1:15:45] I feel like you're a little bit still in the younger part, Josh.
[1:15:48] I think we're all still in a similar boat.
[1:15:56] And I think we can have these moments where like, what is it that I want?
[1:16:00] Like I have been living for other people all this time and meeting other people's expectations and I have completely lost who I am in there and therefore how do I know where to go?
[1:16:14] Yeah.
[1:16:15] I think it can feel very disarming.
[1:16:18] So yes, doing this work is really important to give us like this compass.
[1:16:22] Like I said, there are so many different ways in which we can approach values as a start, absolutely just kind of getting the actual names of values is helpful.
[1:16:30] I feel like what you're talking about now is you could also reference Chrissy Swan's episode.
[1:16:36] She talks about like being in the whirlpool.
[1:16:38] Yes.
[1:16:39] And doing the things that make everyone else happy.
[1:16:42] Yeah.
[1:16:43] And then getting out of that whirlpool is very hard.
[1:16:45] Yeah.
[1:16:46] And so then there are some questions like, if no one was watching, would I still be doing this?
[1:16:52] And I think you've given an example before about doing a PB.
[1:16:55] Would it matter if other people saw it?
[1:16:57] Oh, right.
[1:16:57] Yeah.
[1:16:58] Yeah.
[1:16:58] So that points there to like this being a value direction, if we kind of were to uncover exactly what that was.
[1:17:03] It's a great question to ask.
[1:17:05] Yeah.
[1:17:05] So if no one could see me doing this, how important is it to me?
[1:17:11] Yeah.
[1:17:12] Yeah.
[1:17:13] It comes down to how it makes you feel, I guess.
[1:17:15] Mm-hmm.
[1:17:16] Yeah.
[1:17:17] It's like my heart's deepest desires.
[1:17:19] How does, like, I would still do my heart's deepest desires if no one could see me doing them.
[1:17:24] Mm-hmm.
[1:17:24] If I couldn't receive praise from people or if I couldn't receive positive feedback.
[1:17:29] Yeah.
[1:17:30] And an example absolutely for myself is, I mean, this is a no-brainer caring for my children.
[1:17:34] I would do it every day of the week.
[1:17:35] Mm-hmm.
[1:17:36] And I'm not expecting to receive positive feedback for that.
[1:17:40] Similarly, learning.
[1:17:41] I mean, I do that by myself all the time anyway, so it doesn't matter.
[1:17:44] But yes, I do that unquestionably.
[1:17:48] So if no one sees me doing this, what do I think about it?
[1:17:53] And then the next question is, and this is a really big one, if I was no longer struggling with these feelings, what would I be doing differently?
[1:18:06] And so often what will show up is that basically I would be more engaged in life.
[1:18:11] I would be being more active.
[1:18:13] I would be calling more people.
[1:18:15] I would be pursuing this career.
[1:18:18] So that question, if I was no longer struggling with these feelings, often will highlight how it is I'd like to be living my life.
[1:18:28] The great challenge in there is the fact that I can do these things even in the face of the struggle.
[1:18:34] Yeah.
[1:18:40] That's Ryan's head.
[1:18:41] Exploding.
[1:18:42] Yeah.
[1:18:43] But I'm fine.
[1:18:46] I really, really, I think the thing that's resonating with me more than anything is what would you do if no one's watching?
[1:18:53] Because I feel like particularly as a performer, such a big part of what I do is people watching.
[1:19:01] Yeah.
[1:19:03] And it's almost like for any artist really, many would argue that it is not a complete artwork until it has been viewed.
[1:19:14] So that is a crucial part of the process of making something.
[1:19:18] A lot of people would say that.
[1:19:21] And I'm just wondering like in the world we're in now where so many people do put their life on show,
[1:19:30] do you think it's become harder, particularly for younger people, to think about because like I imagine for so many people now if they live their life online and so much of their life is shared on social media, it's almost like you tell them, well, what would you like to do if no one found out about it?
[1:19:50] They'll always be like, what are you talking about?
[1:19:53] Why would I do something if no one knew about it?
[1:19:56] Like, that's a huge change.
[1:19:58] It's massive.
[1:19:59] It's massive.
[1:20:01] There's an example that comes to mind about if I have a value, for example, around contribution or caring for someone in need, I make an anonymous donation.
[1:20:13] No one will see it and no one will know it's me.
[1:20:16] But I will know that that's something that I've done that's consistent with what I value.
[1:20:22] If it is that we're looking for appreciation and validation, that's a whole other thing.
[1:20:28] That's not me living by my values.
[1:20:30] Yeah.
[1:20:31] That's me seeking approval.
[1:20:33] Yeah.
[1:20:33] So we need to disentangle what's about approval and what's like deep in my heart really.
[1:20:39] Which I feel like even that would be quite confronting for a lot of people who share a lot of their life.
[1:20:45] Yes.
[1:20:45] Because it's really crept up on a lot of people.
[1:20:47] It's not something we all planned for or thought about.
[1:20:49] It's like all of a sudden we're sharing our whole life on the internet and potentially making decisions on what we do based on how previous posts have performed.
[1:20:57] Yes.
[1:20:58] And even... That's the near midlife crisis.
[1:21:00] Yeah.
[1:21:01] Yeah.
[1:21:02] And even like in those moments where you experience something that's really special and you get your phone out to record it, here's a moment here, stop and notice and slow down and be present to this memory that's here of me being exposed.
[1:21:20] For example, one for me is definitely like around wonder and awe and for some reason or other like seeing dolphins or whales is like...
[1:21:31] I am just like off in like a world of joyfulness.
[1:21:34] Yeah.
[1:21:34] Yeah.
[1:21:35] For whatever reason, dolphins and whales, they will bring tears to my eyes.
[1:21:39] Like when I see them, there's lots of stuff in there around that.
[1:21:42] I don't know why.
[1:21:43] And...
[1:21:46] there would be an opportunity there for me to record it to make sure that other people witness how special this is.
[1:21:52] Yeah.
[1:21:53] But that is just for me.
[1:21:55] That moment there is just for me.
[1:21:57] I might tell a lot of people, oh, my gosh, I saw dolphins.
[1:22:00] But at least in those moments I could show up to my values around awe and wonder, for example.
[1:22:06] Great example.
[1:22:07] I chose not to get our wedding filmed because of that reason.
[1:22:11] I didn't want to be thinking about...
[1:22:14] Because also I did it for a job.
[1:22:15] Like I obviously wouldn't have been filming my own wedding.
[1:22:17] Good save.
[1:22:20] Great money save on.
[1:22:22] So far I reckon I'll do it.
[1:22:25] Because Monday to Friday I used to film things for work and then I decided not to get a film crew to film the wedding because I didn't want to be taken out of the day at all.
[1:22:37] Yeah.
[1:22:39] But then again it would have been nice to have some footage from the day.
[1:22:41] Yeah, we'd have made it faster.
[1:22:43] But, I mean, I think that they speak to, again, that kind of speaks to what you're valuing there, like of being present, you're valuing a loving relationship, of showing up, you know, like there are your values there.
[1:22:54] And in fact, I know I'm going on at this point, but in fact, when you think about those moments where tears are brought to your eyes,
[1:23:01] So at a wedding, for example, and you notice that you're feeling tearful or, I don't know, you meet a newborn baby or a friend has something really happy happen and you have tears of joy or tears kind of well in the eyes.
[1:23:17] These moments signal to us what is deeply important.
[1:23:21] Yeah.
[1:23:23] Like when I was watching Gardening Australia last night.
[1:23:24] A lot of tears.
[1:23:27] Really?
[1:23:27] Oh, yeah.
[1:23:28] Yes, that's amazing.
[1:23:30] It was the plant.
[1:23:34] Chrysanthemum.
[1:23:35] Oh, yeah.
[1:23:35] Gets me every time.
[1:23:36] No, it was this incredible story about a – it was so well done, the team that made it.
[1:23:42] But it was a well-known – apparently in the garden world, a well-known South Australian gardener.
[1:23:47] She'd passed away about 10 years ago.
[1:23:49] And it was a tour of her garden who her husband, who looked, I'm guessing, mid-80s,
[1:23:54] still tends every day and, and cut like makes it all look beautiful.
[1:23:59] And they asked him what the garden meant to him.
[1:24:02] And he had this incredible answer about it being her.
[1:24:05] Um, and it was this lovely old man who was still going to garden every day to honor his, yeah.
[1:24:12] Cause that's all he had left of the woman he was married to for 60 years.
[1:24:15] Whoa.
[1:24:16] Yeah.
[1:24:17] That's valued living, isn't it?
[1:24:19] Oh, yeah.
[1:24:20] So you didn't get your phone out and film yourself crying regarding Australia in the background?
[1:24:24] I did, yeah.
[1:24:26] I recreated it later and put it online.
[1:24:27] Oh, yeah, good.
[1:24:28] Yeah, yeah.
[1:24:29] But, yeah, that meant a lot to me.
[1:24:31] Yeah.
[1:24:32] Yeah.
[1:24:32] Oh, that's great.
[1:24:33] Actually, that whole last bit made me question humble.
[1:24:37] It's one of my values.
[1:24:39] Mm-hmm.
[1:24:40] It comes more from a place of fear.
[1:24:42] I'd hate people to think that I wasn't.
[1:24:43] Yeah, yeah.
[1:24:44] I'd hate people to think that I was.
[1:24:47] And what would happen then?
[1:24:49] If people thought I was not humble.
[1:24:52] Yeah.
[1:24:53] I'd just be mortified.
[1:24:54] I'd feel.
[1:24:55] Yeah, because is being humble in private kind of like an oxymoron?
[1:25:01] Yeah.
[1:25:02] No, no, it's not.
[1:25:05] It's not because it still guides decisions for me.
[1:25:10] Like it's still, that's, it's almost been its best utility.
[1:25:13] It's like when I have a decision to make, like what's a humble option, but I do, it comes from a place of being scared of people thinking that I'm not humble.
[1:25:20] Mm-hmm.
[1:25:21] Yeah, that's interesting.
[1:25:22] But I'm also aware, though, that our choices of values are often also linked to who we admire.
[1:25:30] And I know you've spoken about this before, Hugh, about that being representative of your dad.
[1:25:35] Yes.
[1:25:35] Yeah.
[1:25:35] Yeah.
[1:25:36] In a big right.
[1:25:37] Yeah.
[1:25:37] And so, gosh, there are other values that sit in there that are tied up to humility, for example, and that is caring and loving your dad.
[1:25:47] Mm-hmm.
[1:25:48] So, you know, when we pause long enough and really have a look at, okay, what is this representing?
[1:25:54] It feels really important, I think.
[1:25:55] Yeah.
[1:25:57] Yeah.
[1:25:59] Wow.
[1:26:00] Really good.
[1:26:01] Yeah.
[1:26:01] Wow.
[1:26:02] And that was.
[1:26:03] None of us really know how to summarize that.
[1:26:04] We're all just thinking so much.
[1:26:06] I know.
[1:26:07] That was very, very helpful for me.
[1:26:10] My God.
[1:26:11] Yeah.
[1:26:11] Wow.
[1:26:13] I just, I do want to know at the end, I feel like I've just slowed down my voice and felt very sad.
[1:26:19] This is hard.
[1:26:20] This is really hard work.
[1:26:21] Please be gentle with yourselves when you're doing this.
[1:26:24] It's not just all about joyous, value-driven stuff.
[1:26:27] Like it's not just really like happy, light, fluffy stuff.
[1:26:31] This is really hard work and the mind will get very involved constantly.
[1:26:35] in a very convincing way and might knock you around in terms of like exposure to really unpleasant feelings here.
[1:26:42] So please tread carefully and be kind to yourself, you know, when you're doing this work.
[1:26:47] It's so much more involved than I expected figuring out my values to be.
[1:26:54] I think you said at the start you could do it in a couple of minutes.
[1:26:56] Yeah.
[1:26:57] I really thought it would be like, okay, give me a list and I'll pick a few.
[1:27:00] But it's so true.
[1:27:03] It's very clearly been very confronting for me to think about it from all these different angles.
[1:27:09] Because you're forced to kind of think about what do you care about and where's the pain.
[1:27:13] Yes.
[1:27:14] Yes, absolutely Such a strange place to add this Right at the end of the conversation One of the other things I find it really helpful with Is perfectionism Like if you're trying to do something You're trying to be perfect You're not trying to be perfect You're trying to be what your values are You're trying to be creative You're trying to be And then it's not so much about Was it 100 out of 100?
[1:27:33] It was did I Was I kind throughout this process Or whatever it is Yeah Really helped me with my talks Like it really helped It's not what I did It's how I did it Yeah That's great
[1:27:42] So for those who are interested, we will put a link in the show notes to all the ways in which you can discover and work with your values.
[1:27:49] Awesome.
[1:27:50] Okay.
[1:27:51] Wow.
[1:27:51] Thank you.
[1:27:51] Thank you.
[1:27:52] Thank you so much.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.