# Dr Emily - That Guilty Feeling

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 6 Jul 2025, 1 h 16 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/n8v6cx4tm5sk9a0hqscrsbay.mp3

How often do you feel guilty? Guiding us on a guilt trip today is our resident psychologist (and published author) Dr Emily Musgrove. 💌 Subscribe to our newsletter, the Vulnerabilitea-mail - www.theimperfects.com.au Differentiating guilt from shame or regret, Dr Emily takes us back to the very beginning to explain the purpose and function of guilt as a pro-social behaviour which your cave-person ancestor probably would have used to keep them in the tribe. When used wisely, guilt is a useful recognition of information that can alert us when we have gone against our values or dropped our moral standards. However, as Dr Em explains (and people pleasers would know all too well) guilt can quickly becoming overwhelming, exhausting and make you feel like you’re always letting someone down. In this episode, Dr Em dives into the seemingly never-ending guilt of being a parent, especially a mum, as well as the guilt associated with caring for ageing parents. Dr Em, you’ve done it again. To watch this full episode on YouTube, click here - https://youtu.be/wLLJdF1edVE 🫖Other Imperfects episodes mentioned in this episode • Dr Emily - What Are Your Values? - https://apple.co/4dckMpy • Dr Emily - What Are Your Boundaries? - https://bit.ly/409jO91 • Dr Emily - Truth v Harmony - https://apple.co/40pgYO7 • Dr Emily - Who Is Your Inner Critic - https://apple.co/3XaFdw9 • Ben Shewry - Making It Right (And Delicious) - https://bit.ly/4jPHq9F • Ben Shewry (Pt 1) - The Other Side of Excellence - https://apple.co/4hhc2RB • Ben Shewry (Pt 2) - How The Chef Was Made - https://apple.co/48hrQiQ 📖Things to read • Unstuck by Dr Emily Musgrove - https://bit.ly/4bhmCp2 • The Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins - https://bit.ly/3SUcvhv • Good Inside by Dr Becky Kennedy - https://bit.ly/443BPXE • Choice Points by Russ Harris and Colleagues - https://bit.ly/4jUZjnw 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase the Vulnerabilitea House Cards here - https://bit.ly/3Cx4tGP 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - https://bit.ly/3Cx4tGP 🩵To join our patreon community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - patreon.com/theimperfects 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts too, here apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

## Transcript

[0:00] Guilt, like any emotion, is information.
[0:03] Sometimes it may be telling us stuff that is wrapped up in stories about ourselves and our worth and our value.
[0:11] Healthy guilt nudges us towards making amends, apologising, taking action that is towards what we value.
[0:22] Quick, is anyone here a doctor?
[0:24] Yes, her name is Dr Emily and she's a psychologist.
[0:30] Please welcome to The Imperfects, our very own psychologist.
[0:39] Dr Em, welcome.
[0:40] Thank you.
[0:41] Obviously you're here, but I just noticed for the first time in the history of Dr Emerson's, Ryan always does a dance during your intro and that's the first time you didn't laugh at it, I noticed.
[0:50] Yeah.
[0:54] No problem at all.
[0:55] It's just remember for next time, you owe me a laugh.
[0:59] Yeah, that's all right.
[1:00] No, it's okay.
[1:00] I won't think about it at all for the rest of the episode.
[1:04] And I will not feel guilty.
[1:06] Oh, seems like a hint.
[1:08] Yes.
[1:09] Yep.
[1:10] I'm here to talk about guilt.
[1:13] I'm here to talk about the law.
[1:16] Guilt.
[1:17] Yes.
[1:17] Guilt is the episode today.
[1:19] Yes, it is.
[1:19] And for those who don't know, maybe new to Dr. M's contributions to the podcast, Dr. M is a clinical psychologist, comes on every month and talks about a previous episode of ours and talks about it in a clinical psychology way.
[1:35] Mm-hmm.
[1:37] Yes.
[1:37] Yep.
[1:37] That's great.
[1:38] Yeah, it's really good.
[1:39] It's great for us and we love having you.
[1:42] It's great to see you.
[1:42] Great to be here.
[1:43] Yeah, excellent.
[1:44] I don't have any Bourne Cinema anecdotes whatsoever to throw here today and I'm sorry.
[1:49] Let me shock you.
[1:50] Let me shock you.
[1:51] We don't have to have one every episode.
[1:57] Surprising, isn't it?
[1:58] Weird to hear out loud.
[1:59] I don't know.
[1:59] I just thought I had to apologise.
[2:02] No, no need to apologise.
[2:04] No, it's absolutely fine.
[2:05] Well, let's just get straight into guilt then.
[2:07] Okay.
[2:08] Shall we do it?
[2:09] Yeah, let's do it.
[2:10] Yeah.
[2:10] Well, I wanted to talk about guilt and it's quite a complex and multifaceted emotion, but I thought we might just start actually with a grab.
[2:21] from Ben Shuri's episode, his second time I think that he came here.
[2:28] Ben Shuri, acclaimed chef and owner of Attica Restaurant in Melbourne.
[2:33] Yeah.
[2:33] And, you know, he presents his experience of what I would say is regret but also what sits in there is guilt.
[2:42] And it is just one example, I think, of how we can experience guilt.
[2:46] But I thought it might be a good kind of entry point for us to talk about what it looks like and how we can work with it.
[2:52] Love it.
[2:55] So finally, finally, we are lined up at the entrance, the chefs and the waiters and all of the employees of the house and on either side of the entrance inside the house and the door opens and the Queen comes in, the Queen of England, and we've been told not to touch the Queen and the Queen comes past us and nodding and we're bowing.
[3:20] When you say don't touch the Queen, it's like don't shake her hand.
[3:22] Don't physically touch her.
[3:23] That's not cool.
[3:24] Yeah.
[3:25] Should go without saying.
[3:26] Don't say anything either, actually, by the way.
[3:28] Oh, right.
[3:29] Yeah.
[3:31] And then, so she passes by and that's fine.
[3:33] And then Prince Philip comes into the room and he's very jovial.
[3:39] He's sort of a jolly good chap.
[3:41] And he's the opposite.
[3:42] He's, you know, shaking hands and we're bowing and whatnot.
[3:46] Yeah.
[3:47] And he goes past us and it seems as if he's about to leave the hall.
[3:52] And all of a sudden he turns and says, where are all the savages?
[3:58] And then as quickly as he says this, he chuckles to himself and swings around and leaves.
[4:06] And this complete and utter silence.
[4:10] Whoa.
[4:11] And I...
[4:18] don't know what to do and I don't know what to say.
[4:21] I wonder if it's worth just giving some context as to what he meant by where are all the savages?
[4:27] Well, there's really only one way that that statement can be taken.
[4:32] It's a purely and utterly racist statement aimed at the Maori people of New Zealand, of which were many who were standing there, many who were employees of,
[4:45] the governor general.
[4:47] And I knew, you know, instantly of course, how devastating and horrible and abhorrent that this statement is.
[4:59] And I didn't do anything.
[5:03] I didn't say anything to him.
[5:05] I didn't defend my coworkers and shamefully.
[5:10] I didn't say anything to them after I didn't go to them and say, I'm so sorry that happened to you.
[5:16] That was deeply inappropriate.
[5:18] Are you okay?
[5:20] And I've sat with this story now for decades.
[5:27] And I write that it was my greatest regret because it was an immense failing of humanity on my behalf.
[5:35] I knew better.
[5:36] I'd been raised better.
[5:37] My mother has always been a strong anti-racist and taught me the importance of understanding that not all things are equal in the world of my own privilege as a Pākehā.
[5:50] Gosh, it is such a powerful anecdote to reflect on.
[6:00] Yeah, it really is.
[6:01] And I think in some ways for me, it highlights the impact that those experiences
[6:11] can be felt, how much they can be felt and how much they're carried with us, you know, as he said, across decades.
[6:18] Now I recognise that in that clip he refers to regret, that there was a regret there.
[6:25] But I think we can also notice in here a guilt.
[6:28] So regret in some ways, regret and guilt are different and regret can feel like a sadness or a disappointment that I, for example, didn't speak up.
[6:38] Guilt is slightly different to that.
[6:41] And so it might be helpful to kind of start off with a definition of what we're talking about when we're talking about guilt.
[6:47] It's really actually paramount that we know what guilt is because we can work out when it's not here and when it is.
[6:54] So guilt in essence is an emotion that arises when there is a violation of our values or moral standards.
[7:03] So guilt arises when we act out of alignment of what we value and what we expect of ourselves.
[7:12] Okay.
[7:13] It is different from shame, which we will talk a little bit more about as we go on today.
[7:21] But they often do go hand in hand.
[7:23] Yeah, it feels like guilt, shame and regret are kind of like sort of bedfellows.
[7:28] Yes, exactly.
[7:28] And also throw in their embarrassment.
[7:30] Yeah, throw it in, might as well.
[7:33] And, you know, if we look at all of them, really we can understand them as social or almost moral emotions.
[7:41] And I think that helps us understand the purpose and function of guilt.
[7:46] It has often been said, I think, that guilt is a useless emotion.
[7:49] Yeah.
[7:50] It's an emotion that no one likes or wants to have.
[7:53] But in actual fact, we can really see that guilt has a very, very adaptive purpose and it is a very healthy response to living in a community.
[8:05] It's also, it feels like guilt, and I guess this wouldn't be all the time, but when guilt
[8:16] arises in you and you feel guilty, it feels like sometimes, not all the time, but I'm saying that all the time because I can't think of all the times, but I imagine not all the time, but it feels like you have the power to do something about it.
[8:33] And so...
[8:35] And so that can be confronting because maybe the thing that you have to do to undo the guilt or to address the guilt is scary or challenging, uncomfortable.
[8:50] Yeah, absolutely.
[8:51] And I think this highlights what I wanted to talk about today was that there are several aspects to guilt that are both adaptive and maladaptive or unhelpful.
[9:01] And so we can start off by looking at what is adaptive guilt and what happens when we experience guilt and how we work with that feeling.
[9:12] And then what is also what we might say is inappropriate or excessive guilt.
[9:17] And that is guilt that arises, which is in some ways, disproportionate to the situation.
[9:23] And that area is something that I will see in therapy all the time.
[9:28] But I thought we might start off with looking at like what's adaptive guilt and also what's the guilt telling us.
[9:34] Do you guys have examples in your head of things that you just automatically, oh, I feel guilty about this?
[9:39] Yeah, I mean, I'm very familiar with guilt.
[9:43] I think it's always, I think it's guilt and not shame, but that's probably once we discuss that.
[9:49] But mum always used to joke that I'd make a very good Catholic because guilt comes very quickly to me in almost all circumstances.
[9:57] Less so as I get older.
[9:59] But when I was younger, it was like...
[10:01] I just, yeah, but I think I still, like if I was to, if I was to, like on Saturday I had a couple, a few drinks at the pub and got home and I was probably drunk than I wanted to be, just went home, went to bed, fell asleep, woke up the next day and I just felt profound guilt for doing that.
[10:20] Even though I didn't do anything wrong, but I just, that was kind of this underlying emotion for all of Sunday is a guilt that I've done something wrong here.
[10:30] What did you think you'd done wrong?
[10:34] I think in that case it's linked to parenting and...
[10:43] Yeah, parenting and I think alcohol or a hangover just uncovers all the things, like in my mind, all the things that are wrong with me.
[10:53] And I feel guilt about all of them.
[10:55] Yeah, it's not a very pleasant place, a hangover.
[10:59] Yeah, and what I hear in what you're saying there, Josh, also is this kind of intertwining of shame.
[11:05] Yeah, yeah, that's what I think it's, yeah.
[11:08] Yeah.
[11:09] So maybe we can come to that in a minute.
[11:11] Yeah, yeah.
[11:12] Hugh, I wondered if you had... Yeah, I feel guilt a lot of the time and I know Penny feels the exact same way, but just with how challenging things can be at home.
[11:21] If you are not at home, you feel instantly guilty.
[11:25] And I think a lot of parents would probably relate to this, whether your kids are on the spectrum or not, but...
[11:31] I just had five days in India following a cricket team round and incredible life experience, but the whole time it was an element of guilt there that I wasn't at home being a dad.
[11:44] But that can happen, you know, on Saturdays when I go and participate in a race for athletics.
[11:49] I'm only gone for three hours, but I feel so guilty the whole time.
[11:51] And I know Penny feels the same thing when she goes and does stuff.
[11:55] Just whenever you're not around the kids, especially in our house, and the other person is,
[11:59] I think you just feel guilt.
[12:01] Or if something takes slightly longer than you thought it would.
[12:04] Oh, awful.
[12:05] Yeah.
[12:06] Which you're always asking.
[12:07] I don't know, go do shopping.
[12:08] Yeah.
[12:08] I'll feel guilty if I thought I've committed to do, like go do the full shop.
[12:13] It'll be back in an hour.
[12:15] If I'm an hour and 20, hour and five, I just start to feel like so guilty.
[12:18] 20 minutes is cool.
[12:19] Yeah.
[12:20] So can I ask you then in like in those instances, what standard or moral, moral standard are you violating?
[12:27] Do you feel like you're violating?
[12:29] I should say.
[12:29] I think I'm leaving the other Sophie in the, in the lurch.
[12:35] You're making life harder for someone that you love.
[12:37] Yeah.
[12:38] Okay.
[12:41] And so then this feeling arises.
[12:43] Now, what I want to add in that is that that's really healthy.
[12:49] The question is, well, what do we do with it when it's here?
[12:51] So the feeling of guilt is really healthy.
[12:53] Yeah.
[12:53] Like this, as in, in those, in those circumstances, you love and care for your partners and you don't want them to have a hard time.
[13:02] So that like that's sitting at the crux of this is that you care and love them.
[13:06] Yeah.
[13:07] If guilt wasn't showing up, there may be many reasons as to why guilt doesn't show up in those circumstances perhaps, but one reason may be that you just don't care as much about how your partner's being impacted at home, for example.
[13:21] So the guilt is a healthy response to caring about other people in our lives.
[13:26] Yeah.
[13:26] So you're saying that Josh should take two or three hours shopping up the guilt as much as possible because the more guilt, the healthier.
[13:36] Is that the takeaway?
[13:37] That would be one way to look at it.
[13:39] I get exactly what you're saying because in my example, I would, the whole cricket team went off to the Maldives for four days.
[13:45] I would probably have been to Maldives right now and would not have come home.
[13:48] So I'd be guilt, make sure I came home.
[13:50] Yes.
[13:51] Yeah, and I think this is the thing is that healthy guilt nudges us towards pro-social behaviour, making amends, apologising, taking action that is towards what we value, right?
[14:05] Right.
[14:06] There's a very big importance on listening, paying attention to guilt.
[14:09] Yes, guilt, like any emotion, is information.
[14:13] And so we really need to listen to what it's telling us.
[14:17] Sometimes it may be telling us stuff that is wrapped up in stories about ourselves and our worth and our value.
[14:26] We need the challenges to discern what is imagined, what is excessive or maladaptive, and what is something we really need to pay attention to.
[14:39] Yeah.
[14:40] Yeah.
[14:41] Okay.
[14:41] I think I misspoke before and I don't feel guilt as much as I used to because I'm starting, I just, I can't believe this didn't occur to me, but I reckon for all of last year and I'm getting better at it, I almost felt guilt, uh, like almost all day because it would be either the guilt that trying to balance time between work and home.
[15:04] I always felt like I was letting someone down, whether it was people at work or people at home, and there was guilt associated at all points of that.
[15:14] Yeah.
[15:15] And how is that for you to hold then?
[15:20] It grinds you down.
[15:23] Yeah, it's tiring.
[15:24] I guess it has an influence on the way you act as well, like your behaviour.
[15:29] Yeah, and I think I therefore probably got defensive...
[15:35] when I didn't need to be about my behaviour and stuff like that because there's a feeling of, I don't know, just defensive.
[15:45] If I was a little bit late to either one, I would feel, I don't think I acted it out to other people, but anticipatory defensiveness inside me.
[15:56] Yeah, if that makes sense.
[15:57] That's a good catch.
[15:58] Absolutely.
[15:58] Yeah.
[16:00] So if we look at guilt there, if the guilt could talk, what would it be saying, do you think?
[16:05] Um, uh, you're letting everyone down.
[16:10] Yeah.
[16:10] Okay.
[16:11] And so what would it mean if you let everybody down?
[16:14] Uh, that you're not.
[16:18] Well, it's different for work and different for home, but at work you're not contributing, you're not a valued part that you're not needed.
[16:28] You're not a valued part of the team.
[16:29] Uh, you slack off, you're lazy, you're, um, you, you never really do hard work.
[16:36] Uh, you don't contribute.
[16:38] Yeah.
[16:39] That at home, it would be your neglectful.
[16:44] You don't love your kids enough.
[16:45] You're not a good enough partner.
[16:47] Yeah.
[16:47] That feels really hard.
[16:49] Yeah, it's a lot.
[16:49] Noticing that.
[16:50] Yeah.
[16:50] Yeah.
[16:51] Um, and it's very understandable then that we might feel, or we might hold a defensiveness because that defensiveness is protecting you against the pain of feeling that.
[17:03] Mm.
[17:04] Um, so we defend against this in order to protect the part that's really worried or fearful or scared.
[17:10] Yeah.
[17:11] Cause what I hear in that, you know, underneath the guilt is a fear, like is a fear in some way that I've harmed this relationship and that in some way I will be, um, rejected, abandoned, left behind.
[17:28] Yeah.
[17:30] And so, you know, guilt that sits there is pointing to what's important to us.
[17:36] And so in that sense, it is healthy that it shows up.
[17:42] The question in here is how do we like, how do we not let it sit in the driver's seat?
[17:48] Because what I heard in that experience, Josh, is that when you felt guilty at work and then you felt guilty at home and vice versa, it takes you out of engagement in the present moment and feeling like a sense of fulfilment with the work that you're doing right now, for example.
[18:03] Yeah.
[18:04] And that becomes so exhausting because the mind is constantly like alerting you to the fact that.
[18:10] You shouldn't really be here.
[18:11] Like you should be at home.
[18:12] And then when you're at home, what about all that work you've got to do?
[18:16] So it's this kind of constant, we could almost say it's a constant sense of, uh, threat.
[18:22] Yeah.
[18:22] Which takes you away from this capacity to feel like engaged, fulfilled, satisfied with what I'm doing here in this moment.
[18:30] How does that make sense?
[18:32] Yeah, and ironically, I think it means you use the time worse.
[18:36] Like I feel like if I'm at home, probably reaching for my phone more.
[18:44] Um, whether there's the intention of just doing something quickly for work or for a bit of a hit of feeling better about myself, like dopamine, and then at work, maybe not affect, like not as engaged in the task.
[18:56] So therefore not using the time I do have as well.
[18:59] Yeah.
[19:00] So it has a negative impact on both as well.
[19:02] Yeah.
[19:03] So again, I want to emphasise that it's not a problem that we feel guilt, unless that feeling and our fusion with it pushes us around to the extent that it takes us away from what's important to us.
[19:16] Yeah.
[19:16] So if we think about guilt as it's like giving us a nudge, a nudge towards repairing or making amends.
[19:26] It's like if you look at actually the etymology of the word guilt, it comes from the German word geld, which means debt or owing.
[19:35] Oh.
[19:36] Yeah.
[19:37] And so guilt is like repaying, in some ways repaying the debt from an error, from like some sort of action that is harmful.
[19:46] Does that make sense?
[19:48] Yeah.
[19:48] Obviously like the criminal way of- Yes.
[19:52] Is literally you are guilty of committing a crime.
[19:54] Yes, correct.
[19:54] Yeah.
[19:55] That there is a debt here to pay.
[19:58] So we've got, if we look at what I would say is like appropriate guilt, healthy guilt, is that we do something wrong, right?
[20:07] So let's say, I don't know, maybe you yell at your kid and that is a violation of your values and the way you expect to parent.
[20:17] Okay.
[20:18] So guilt shows up because you've acted differently
[20:21] in violation of your values.
[20:24] That's healthy.
[20:25] This feeling here is healthy.
[20:27] It's like a little, it's like a signal.
[20:29] Exactly.
[20:30] It is exactly.
[20:30] That's a great analogy.
[20:31] It's exactly that.
[20:33] It's a signal for me to pay attention and now to do something.
[20:37] And so that might look like me noticing, oh, I'm noticing I feel really guilty.
[20:42] That was really out of line with how I want to be in this world.
[20:46] And so that, the guilt is the prompting of action.
[20:51] So the action then would look like
[20:54] sitting down with your child, sweetheart, I yelled at you then, I'm really sorry.
[21:00] That's not how I want to be as a parent.
[21:03] Now, what I would like to really emphasize there is that the repair work is the really important part and the guilt is what prompted you to do it.
[21:10] Yeah.
[21:11] Right.
[21:11] So the guilt is the signal.
[21:14] Yes.
[21:14] And then it's like how you react to the signal.
[21:17] Yeah.
[21:17] So that's in circumstances where we can really readily identify that something I've done here has been harmful in some way.
[21:26] And it requires us assessing the damage.
[21:28] So when guilt is here, we can take a pause and step back and look at, okay, so what is the damage of this action that I have taken or not taken?
[21:37] And so we want to get like, you know, if it's possible to be able to step back and get a sense of perspective.
[21:42] So sometimes in some circumstances that may involve you consulting with a friend.
[21:47] Like I've just done this thing.
[21:48] I don't know.
[21:49] What do you think?
[21:50] Like, how would this feel sound to you?
[21:52] Sometimes that can be a way of like assessing it.
[21:54] You might also just have a sense of intuition immediately.
[21:56] Like that is not how I want to be.
[21:59] That's a real misalignment with my values here.
[22:03] So we assess the damage and we notice the impact that it's had.
[22:09] Guilt sounds like a wise mentor.
[22:11] Just like, just taps on a shoulder and goes, hey, just that thing that happened before.
[22:15] I can, you ought to be better than that or that's not who you want to be.
[22:18] Let's do something better.
[22:19] Exactly.
[22:20] When it's used wisely.
[22:22] Yeah.
[22:22] Yeah.
[22:24] So it does prompt us to make those, to make amends.
[22:29] Now, if we're just staying with the actual fact of causing harm or the actual fact of doing something in misalignment, what we often face then is the pain of that feeling, the pain that I've really caused harm.
[22:41] And that will feel in some circumstances, very hard to be with.
[22:45] And like I think you alluded to before, Ryan, that the prospect of making amends actually feels even more aversive.
[22:53] Oh yeah.
[22:53] So apologising for something that you've done, like many people will run for the hills.
[23:00] Oh yeah.
[23:00] We move into experiential avoidance and physical avoidance.
[23:05] The guilty thing that's come to mind now is there have been a few times where I've had an acting job that requires me to learn lines and the day arrives and I realise I haven't really learnt my lines yet.
[23:21] I should do it.
[23:22] I should look at the lines before.
[23:23] And then I walk on set and I'm like, I am not prepared.
[23:27] This is terrifying now because I have not prepared like I should have
[23:31] And I feel really guilty when we start filming and it becomes so apparent to everyone that I haven't learnt my lines properly and I'm letting everyone down.
[23:42] But then my sort of instinct is to try and kind of like just...
[23:49] Like fake my way through it and try and pretend like, oh, it's all right.
[23:54] No, I'm good.
[23:55] It's almost like I'd prefer it this way.
[23:58] And then afterwards I feel so guilty because of, you know, how I've wasted time or maybe we've had to do like...
[24:05] three or four more takes because I haven't got the lines right.
[24:08] But instead of afterwards going like, hey, I'm so sorry that I didn't learn my lines, instead I'll usually just not reference it and just hope that it went away.
[24:19] Because it's like the thought of admitting that I was not prepared, which is just like so disrespectful, the thought that I've done that or that I would acknowledge that I've done that is terrifying.
[24:31] So more often than I just I don't mention it.
[24:35] What do you risk, do you think?
[24:36] Like what's the risk in there of apologising?
[24:42] Or admitting?
[24:44] But it's that people will judge me harshly for it and people will then go, oh, Ryan's, he's not professional.
[24:53] He doesn't take it seriously.
[24:55] He's, you know, and it's actually a reoccurring nightmare I have is walking onto set and not having learnt the lines.
[25:03] I have it all the time, all the time.
[25:05] Yeah.
[25:06] Yeah.
[25:07] So I guess what I hear in that is also that the making amends or the apologising is really opening up to the mistake and the potential harm that you've caused.
[25:19] Mm-hmm.
[25:20] So if you don't do it, we can kind of hide from it in some ways and hope that people haven't noticed or hope that this hasn't caused obvious harm to people.
[25:31] It really gives a whole new way of looking at pleading guilty and not guilty because it's like to plead guilty in just like in a non-criminal way
[25:41] is kind of admitting to, is a very formal way of admitting to the guilt that you feel and apologising.
[25:47] Yes.
[25:48] So like, it's essentially like if I went to the director after the shoot and said like, just by the way, I'd like to plead not guilty.
[25:56] for not remembering my lines.
[25:58] See you tomorrow.
[25:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[26:00] So the risk that comes with that, right, is that there's an accountability and a blame that I will have to hold.
[26:08] And so if I can acknowledge that I did this thing wrong, that is going to open us up to the risk that people won't accept the apology.
[26:18] Right.
[26:20] And that that, from an evolutionary point of view, might mean, you know, expulsion, abandonment, rejection.
[26:26] So turning towards that mistake, turning towards this and owning it, does feel more vulnerable than hiding and pretending and shutting off.
[26:38] Yeah, it does.
[26:39] Even though it immediately seems so much more admirable to...
[26:47] In my situation, if it was another actor who hadn't learnt lines and it was very apparent while we were shooting, I was like, oh, God...
[26:55] If they afterwards said like, hey, I'm so sorry for not learning my lines, that would actually, because if they didn't say anything, I might walk away thinking like, well, I might think twice before working with that person again.
[27:10] But if they acknowledge it and say like, I'm really sorry, that's not me and it won't happen again, I'm so sorry, then I'll be like, oh, they're aware of it.
[27:20] So that probably won't happen again.
[27:23] Yes.
[27:24] It also engenders trust.
[27:26] Yeah.
[27:27] Yeah.
[27:27] Yeah.
[27:28] So that kind of honesty, that ability to take accountability is also going to lend itself to people feeling like I can really trust you with this.
[27:38] There's some interesting research also that suggests that people who are more prone to guilt are also viewed and perceived as more trustworthy.
[27:46] That's interesting.
[27:47] That's so interesting.
[27:48] I mean, now I'm thinking about like all the men who were accused of some form of abuse or during the Me Too movement.
[27:57] And then most men just pleaded not guilty and just denied everything.
[28:01] But then the few men who were able to accept the guilt and...
[28:08] say and apologise and say, I did the wrong thing, I'm really sorry, immediately, well, in my opinion, that engenders more trust in that person, even if they've done something wrong.
[28:18] Yeah, because it's calling upon this pro-social act that I'm taking responsibility, that I have acted out of alignment and I therefore am prompted to make amends.
[28:31] Um, and that's exactly what we need for a functioning society is that when errors are made, I mean, God, this goes back to like Christianity and, you know, Adam and Eve and stuff like this is like making amends, atoning for our sins.
[28:46] Um, it's part of a functioning society for us to be able to do that because we can't be perfect.
[28:51] No one is not going to make mistakes in life.
[28:54] So this, it kind of brings us round to also then.
[28:59] you know, if we have made amends and that's been accepted, like, that's great.
[29:06] We also then need to bring in some compassion for ourselves because what so often happens when guilt shows up is that that inner critic has a bit of a field day.
[29:15] So it will bring in a litany of
[29:19] critical thoughts from the past of like, how could you do this again?
[29:21] What's wrong with you?
[29:22] It sounds like Josh's example from before.
[29:24] It sounded a bit like that.
[29:25] Yeah.
[29:25] And this is also where we can see shame kind of comes and kind of blurs the lines here a little bit too.
[29:31] So if we just like really briefly and obviously as you would be aware, Brene Brown is like the queen of shame research and the way that she and most researchers tend to differentiate shame and guilt is that
[29:43] Guilt is I've done something wrong and shame is I am wrong or I am bad.
[29:50] So it's to do with guilt is to do with the action and shame is to do with the sense of self.
[29:56] They do often, like I said before, they work hand in hand.
[29:59] So I've done something wrong and then shame will come on board and say, you're such a bad person.
[30:05] How could you do this?
[30:08] They can occur separately.
[30:09] Absolutely.
[30:10] But they're most often intertwined.
[30:13] Yeah.
[30:14] I think I feel the need to bring up, I feel like in many of the examples we've been talking about, they're kind of acts that are within a spectrum of forgiveness.
[30:26] But I think some people do things that many would consider not forgivable or just that really cause extreme harm to other people.
[30:36] And I think,
[30:38] I can't help but think that often in those cases, whether I've read this or seen this or heard this, or it's an intuition, to be specific, I'm thinking in a case of something like domestic violence, that the person would commit an act of violence, feel guilty, and then it would lead to more violence, as opposed to seeking forgiveness or anything like that.
[31:05] How does that...
[31:08] So that's a really important example and that is an example of our discomfort and aversion to the pain that's there.
[31:19] So for some people when guilt arises,
[31:22] it actually prompts what I would say are avoidant reactive responses, which is this is so icky, it actually makes me reactive and it makes me aggressive or it makes me want to control things.
[31:35] Um, whereas for some people when guilt is here, it makes me withdraw and not want to see anybody.
[31:40] Yeah.
[31:41] So it's not always going to prompt like a healthy response, which is making amends.
[31:47] So basically what we're looking is how this person sits with the pain that's there.
[31:52] And that so often, I mean, most of us aren't taught how to sit with pain, like I've kind of mentioned probably many times.
[31:59] It's how we kind of tune into that feeling and to be okay with it being here.
[32:04] And then also looking at what action can it really prompt that's helpful for us and in line with our values.
[32:10] But so often we're not attuned to that.
[32:12] And so we will react to this terrible feeling.
[32:16] And that may look like aggression, control, violence,
[32:22] which then perpetuates the whole cycle even more.
[32:25] Yeah.
[32:25] For some reason I thought it popped into my head like a misappropriation of the blame of that pain that it's their fault for the pain I'm feeling.
[32:32] Absolutely.
[32:33] Yeah.
[32:34] Josh, when you feel guilty, even if it's like on a daily basis, because if you're feeling guilty about not being at home, will you talk to Soph about it and say like, I feel really guilty?
[32:49] Or is it just something that's become so common that you don't,
[32:52] Uh, not every day, but I'll bring it up after a while.
[32:55] Um, and I think I've brought it up with, um, Bridget work as well, that I feel really bad that like I'm like, I'm letting people down.
[33:03] I try and communicate that.
[33:05] Yeah.
[33:06] Um, when I can.
[33:07] And how does that feel when you do then?
[33:09] It feels good, but I also, I can't, yeah, it feels good, but
[33:14] Like to have the dialogue.
[33:16] But I also sometimes I've stayed late at work and then I get home and so I just have to deal with all the, and as every parent knows, like getting food on the table, kids, all the hard stuff.
[33:30] And, yeah, and I feel like me coming in and saying I'm really sorry is kind of almost insulting to the reality of the situation.
[33:44] Like, yeah, you might be sorry, but I've still put you in this.
[33:47] Like in my mind, I might still be sorry, but I've still put them in this position, her in this position, by losing track of time or... Yeah, yeah.
[33:55] And then that kind of sounds like that inner dialogue really kind of beats you up.
[34:01] Yeah, yeah.
[34:02] I think it's like I think if we're to align it to a value, I think I want to be a very selfless person and I feel like that's a moment where I put myself above the needs of others.
[34:17] Yeah, and I think that what you're hitting on there is –
[34:23] so foundational in understanding the early experiences that we have in life and how we understand the world and the role of self-sacrifice.
[34:38] Um, and so this is kind of, it kind of moves us a little bit into the experience of what I would say is, um, excessive or, uh, less helpful guilt.
[34:49] And that is when basically we're getting pushed around by guilt, even when we've made amends or we're getting pushed around by guilt in a circumstance where actually maybe it's not appropriate to feel guilty.
[35:01] And so this is the second category that I was talking about.
[35:04] So we've got the first category, which is healthy adaptation to the environment, prompting us to take action, to make amends.
[35:13] And yes, we're going to have to sit with a lot of self-compassion when we've made that mistake.
[35:16] But for a lot of us, and I think particularly in the parenting era,
[35:24] that can move into what might be less helpful.
[35:27] And that is that the guilt is pushing us around well beyond the making of the amends or might actually leave us feeling very stuck in lots of different ways.
[35:37] How does that resonate so far?
[35:38] Yeah.
[35:39] Yeah.
[35:39] Yeah.
[35:39] It's just reminded me of a thing that someone told Soph when we had Charlie, that first you'll give birth to your child and then you'll give birth to a cloud of guilt that'll follow you around for the rest of your life.
[35:49] Yeah, yeah.
[35:51] That's very interesting.
[35:53] And so I wanted to mention, so if we were to look at something like schema therapy, which is to do with uncovering our early childhood experiences and how they have informed our core beliefs about ourselves, about other people in the world.
[36:07] And what are really common predictors of guilt proneness, for example, or feeling guilty a lot, would be experiences where we self-sacrifice.
[36:19] and where we have unrelenting standards.
[36:21] So in essence, people pleasing and perfectionism.
[36:26] So, you know, in childhood, what we might learn under many different conditions, a child might learn that I need to be really attuned to the environment, particularly to other people's emotions.
[36:40] Okay.
[36:41] So
[36:43] This may be the case if there's unpredictability in the family environment, where there's some kind of trauma, where there's more aggressive behaviours, perhaps from parents or primary caregivers, or where there's a modelling of and a valuing of kindness and niceness.
[37:05] So there's lots of different circumstances where this can arise.
[37:07] But one of the key messages in there is that
[37:12] My main role is to attend to the emotions of other people and to ensure that the emotions of other people are calm and pleasant.
[37:23] And in order to do that, I must disavow my own needs.
[37:28] And so basically we become like really adept at reading the emotional space of other people and being attuned to when someone is unhappy with us, being attuned to when someone might potentially be disappointed, when someone might be let down, when someone might be put out.
[37:45] Okay.
[37:46] Do you see where I might be heading with this?
[37:49] Yeah.
[37:49] Well, our youngest right now is two and a half, sorry, it'll be three soon and he's so
[37:56] finally aware of how everyone's emotions are.
[37:59] He just, he calls them out as like, no happiness.
[38:02] He looks for happiness.
[38:03] And when he sees it, he'll say, Daddy's happy now.
[38:06] Daddy's happy.
[38:06] Mummy's happy now.
[38:08] But he just could label everyone's happiness when he sees it.
[38:11] Or conversely, if he sees it's not happening, he will like point it out.
[38:15] He'll go, Daddy's happy.
[38:17] Like, it's like a question, like I want you to be.
[38:19] It's quite amazing to watch.
[38:21] It's just happened in the last few weeks.
[38:22] Yeah.
[38:23] And there's, I mean, gosh, we look at like how remarkable children are being able to, how we are as children, able to read and pick up on the environment, the cues of the environment that we're in and the great adaptive drive we have to make it calm and to make it safe.
[38:46] Basically, we want our families to be happy because happiness means safe.
[38:53] So it pays for a kid to pay attention to the emotional needs of the adults in the room or the siblings in the room.
[39:03] In childhood, those ways of attending, of coping, are very important, vital and necessary to live in the environment.
[39:14] The problem is that when we move into adulthood and we continue to be so vigilant to other people's moods and emotions.
[39:26] that we actually leave our own needs behind.
[39:30] So basically it means is that anytime we might upset someone, anytime that we might challenge someone, ask for our own needs to be met, assert a boundary, we will feel guilty because now we have made them upset.
[39:48] And my main role in life was to not make them upset.
[39:51] That was my main driver.
[39:54] So in essence, that we've taken on the responsibility of other people's emotions.
[39:59] And so if I do something that is going to violate that, then I will feel guilt.
[40:05] Yeah.
[40:07] Tick.
[40:09] Yeah, I think that's a tick for me too.
[40:15] I think only now and particularly with this new therapist I've been seeing, he's so, so great, am I sort of realising how much I'm kind of missing out on because I'm so concerned about like...
[40:32] getting in trouble or doing the wrong thing.
[40:34] And that usually is, I guess, connected to by doing the wrong thing.
[40:37] It usually means that I'm letting someone else down.
[40:40] And these can be tiny little things, small things, but it's putting myself second just so I don't get in trouble.
[40:48] Yes.
[40:49] And often that like fear that I have of upsetting this other person is kind of made up.
[40:56] And not even necessarily, I'm not going to upset them anyway.
[40:59] But also not your responsibility.
[41:01] And, yeah.
[41:02] Yeah.
[41:03] And I think like this is the hardest message of this work, I think, is that I'm going to mention Mel Robbins and her magnificent booklet, Let Them, because this is the crux of the work that I think psychologists have been doing for a very long time.
[41:16] And that is learning.
[41:17] Yeah.
[41:17] Yeah.
[41:18] where we can let people be responsible for their feelings and to know that there is a boundary between me and what I'm responsible for and what someone else is responsible for.
[41:30] So, you know, in this work is knowing that when I set a boundary, when I ask for something for me, you will feel guilty.
[41:42] Like that's the first thing, it will feel unpleasant because this is a violation
[41:48] of what you have idealised as the standards that you should be behaving in accordance with, right?
[41:54] But if you continue to say yes to everything, if you don't ever put a boundary in, what happens to you over time?
[42:03] Yeah.
[42:05] It's funny, like the other...
[42:08] This happened a few times recently where, you know, because Jam, my partner Jam knows that...
[42:16] Not all the time, but she knows that I love having a night to myself where I just watch a movie that she doesn't necessarily want to be interested in.
[42:24] And I'll just make a big bowl of popcorn and just watch the movie.
[42:27] That is heaven.
[42:28] I love it.
[42:29] What flavour is your...
[42:36] Popcorn flavour.
[42:36] Popcorn.
[42:37] Yeah.
[42:37] Really good question here.
[42:39] So they're trying to picture it.
[42:42] Triple butter.
[42:43] Oh, triple.
[42:44] Triple butter, yeah.
[42:45] If they're in the packet.
[42:46] Yeah, pop it.
[42:47] It's very good.
[42:48] Yeah, yeah.
[42:49] Great question here.
[42:50] Just call me Josh.
[42:52] I think he said pop them.
[42:53] Pop them.
[42:54] Pop them.
[42:57] uh mel poppins um so um so yeah so the other a couple times jam has you know i might have had like a stressful day and i'll come home and my expectation is okay well i'm seeing jam now and she's always like excited like we'll watch something together or we'll have dinner together and she said she's like do you want to just have a night to yourself and just like you watch a movie
[43:26] In my mind, I'm like, oh, yeah, that would be amazing.
[43:31] But then I'm like, yeah, that would be good.
[43:33] But then my thing is like, oh, but I don't want to, but if you want to hang out, I'd love to just hang out with you.
[43:39] But in my mind, which I would be happy with hanging out with her, genuinely, but it's also like such a tempting offer to go like, really, just a night to myself?
[43:50] Even though she's in the house, it's like usually those nights are only reserved to when she's away or when she's doing her own thing.
[43:56] Yeah.
[43:56] So I felt really guilty, but she made me feel very unguilty by going, I honestly just do that.
[44:04] And I sat in bed, I watched The Departed and ate popcorn and it was so much fun.
[44:13] But I really had to get over a little bit of guilt at the start to do it.
[44:16] I actually thought of you the other day at Byron Bay Cinemas with the kids who had to return our chalk jobs because we couldn't penetrate the surface.
[44:27] I think that needs more explanation.
[44:29] Wow.
[44:32] Wow.
[44:33] One of the deleted scenes from American Pie as well.
[44:42] No, I just show visible context that one day a man at the Bourne Cinema, I've got one for you, came back with an ice cream cone, a very old man, and he handed it back to us, and there was scratch marks all across the top, and he goes, I'm so sorry, I can't seem to penetrate the surface of this shelf.
[44:59] Jesus.
[45:01] Scratch marks.
[45:02] His teeth had been trying to get through.
[45:04] I just couldn't get in.
[45:05] Oh, I thought it was like he was like trying to scurry with his hands.
[45:08] Yeah, that's right.
[45:10] Just used your mouth.
[45:11] He was trying like he was doing it.
[45:13] I know.
[45:14] That is hell.
[45:14] It is hell when you can't penetrate the surface.
[45:16] This is the problem when I laugh, I cry.
[45:20] Good.
[45:22] Again, all important points.
[45:24] So you were having popcorn on your own.
[45:27] Yes.
[45:27] And it felt glorious.
[45:28] It felt glorious, but I had to really overcome this feeling of guilt.
[45:32] And just to, because this is.
[45:34] I already said Josh is triple butter.
[45:37] No, this is extremely similar.
[45:39] There's no point in me telling the story because the basic principles are the same, but Jam had to like very, very explicitly almost force you to do it.
[45:47] Yeah.
[45:48] Yeah.
[45:49] Yeah.
[45:50] And I think that's a really, really important point in there is that it actually probably would have felt too hard to trust that she could hold her own feelings, which she most likely can.
[45:58] But it feels like that is your responsibility to make sure that other people's feelings are okay.
[46:06] Yes, and I think because I know the context of our relationship, I know that like if I've been working all day, I know that she's excited for us to have a night together.
[46:18] So I know that by me not doing that and just having a night to myself, I know that I'm potentially, you know, ruining her night to be dramatic about it, but ruining, you know, what she was hoping to do that night.
[46:30] Yeah.
[46:31] And I think so this is where like we're really kind of talking about that second category of guilt, which is when the guilt is really kind of getting in the driver's seat and really dictating our choices and preventing us in essence from having our needs met.
[46:46] And so it kind of what sits at the heart of that is this idea that I am responsible for other people's emotions and the emotional health of other people.
[46:55] And what we need to kind of come around to is that in actual fact, it is not my responsibility to look after your emotions, provided I've acted respectfully.
[47:06] So, I mean, there might be debate about what respectfully looks like or is, but if I've done what a reasonable person would do, it is not my responsibility to look after your feelings of being disappointed, for example.
[47:20] That's actually on you.
[47:21] They're like, it's putting back to the rightful place where these emotions should sit.
[47:27] And that's with the person that's feeling them.
[47:29] Oh, but you can't say that though, can you?
[47:31] No, no.
[47:32] But we can also... That's on you.
[47:34] Yeah, but we can also, in some ways, test it out a little bit.
[47:37] So it might be something like,
[47:39] Um, maybe you assert something and then the other person says, I feel really disappointed and you might need to acknowledge, yeah, like I get that, but there's also a reason as to why I want to do this.
[47:52] And that's also so I can show up and be a really good partner with you.
[47:56] So I've got resources.
[47:57] So I'm nourished as well because this relationship is really important.
[48:02] And it's okay for other people to feel disappointed.
[48:06] It's okay for other people to have these unpleasant emotions.
[48:09] But what we're doing is kind of like unlearning the models that we were shown or experienced as kids.
[48:14] That I want to make sure everyone is happy and everyone is okay.
[48:18] It's just so hard to ignore the, like when you say that, it's like, yes, I 100% can see that it makes sense, that it's okay for other people to be disappointed, but I don't want to be the one responsible for it.
[48:31] Yeah.
[48:31] I don't want to cause the disappointment.
[48:33] Like, yeah, be disappointed.
[48:34] That makes sense.
[48:35] But if it's directly attributed to my actions or my decisions, that's so uncomfortable.
[48:41] But do you notice then the standards that you have to hold for yourself then?
[48:46] Yeah, I know.
[48:47] I can see it objectively, but being in it feels really tough.
[48:53] Yeah.
[48:54] And so I think that is kind of the next point in that is that is learning how to be like to sit with the discomfort of knowing someone's upset or knowing someone's disappointed and how to offer yourself compassion.
[49:06] and kindness and to slow down and to notice that there is a part of me that also needs to be nourished.
[49:13] Um, I think this plays a lot into, um,
[49:19] parental guilt and an example that would come to mind might be something like, you know, if we take out kind of the partners involved here, but more looking at the kids, like if your child really wants you not to go to work or not to travel interstate, for example, and they get really, really upset.
[49:38] Now, I'm not sure if you're all familiar with Dr Becky, I can't actually remember her surname.
[49:42] She does a lot of like incredible parenting stuff, American psychologist, and she's got a book called Good Inside.
[49:49] And, you know, she really talks about this idea that, you know, when a child, for example, is saying, don't go, mummy, and is getting very upset.
[49:57] The guilt feeling arises, right?
[50:00] But we actually have to question whether this is guilt or not.
[50:02] And so I'll come to that in a minute.
[50:04] So this feeling of unpleasantness arises and it says, oh, I'm going to, I have to stay, I can't let them feel this.
[50:10] I don't want them to feel this pain.
[50:12] So I stay.
[50:14] Now, what happens when you stay?
[50:16] What do you think would happen if you were to stay in that instance?
[50:19] Let's say you've got a dinner planned with your friends or you're going away for a night with some friends.
[50:23] What would happen if you make the choice to stay there because they're upset?
[50:27] A resentment.
[50:29] Maybe guilt, maybe guilt arises in another direction.
[50:32] Yeah.
[50:33] Yeah.
[50:34] Now, if we look at the definition of guilt, it's when we've acted out of alignment of our values or when we violated some kind of moral standard or expectation.
[50:44] Now is going to have, see your friends, a violation of your values?
[50:49] No.
[50:50] Yeah.
[50:51] It may be being a committed parent is all like being a present parent.
[50:55] Yeah, but presumably you're not leaving your kid alone.
[50:59] The kid's not going to be harmed.
[51:00] The kid is going to be with another parent or a caregiver.
[51:03] The kid is safe.
[51:04] Yeah.
[51:05] What is the harm to the child?
[51:06] The harm is the emotion.
[51:08] That's what it feels like.
[51:09] Yeah, right.
[51:10] So it feels like I can't let my child have this feeling of upset.
[51:15] So I must stay and make them feel okay.
[51:18] Am I making sense there?
[51:19] Yeah.
[51:20] Yeah.
[51:20] Okay.
[51:21] But the cost of that is really significant.
[51:23] So the cost is, first of all, is the child is deprived of an opportunity to, to experience, um, disappointment, um, and that they miss an opportunity to be able to soothe with
[51:35] the assistance of another caregiver, for example, and to also know that mum's coming back.
[51:40] It also means that we don't get the opportunity to resource ourselves to meet the needs that we have for ourselves.
[51:47] But if guilt, once again, if guilt is in the driver's seat, it says don't go.
[51:51] It says there's no way I can do this.
[51:54] I have to stay.
[51:55] Are you also role modelling to your child that the most important thing is making sure other people's emotions are okay?
[52:03] Yes, exactly.
[52:04] So you're just repeating, you're instilling guilt into them in the long run?
[52:08] Yeah.
[52:09] Jam and I babysat our friend's kid.
[52:13] So I completely relate to all the parenting stuff you guys have been talking about.
[52:18] Yeah, we babysat for one night and I left after an hour and a half.
[52:22] So I get it.
[52:23] I get it, guys.
[52:24] I get it.
[52:26] But it was heartbreaking when his parents left and he was like banging on the front door.
[52:35] And he was like, it was so sad.
[52:37] The reason I'm bringing it up is because Jam was amazing and just like because he really loves Jam.
[52:44] And she was just holding him and we read some books.
[52:46] And even though he was still sad, he eventually just got really tired and went to sleep and it was like fine.
[52:52] And that was all in the space of maybe like an hour.
[52:55] But of course, in the end, it's fine.
[52:58] You know, it highlights, you know, in that instance with the child too, the importance of reunion.
[53:03] And so this knowledge that I can go and come back and we are, like, this love is enduring.
[53:08] So that's one thing is that me leaving doesn't mean that I don't love you anymore.
[53:13] It doesn't mean that I'm rejecting you.
[53:14] And you will have had in the bank so many moments of being present and there and available for your child that this child can withstand you going and it'd be okay.
[53:24] One of the things I wanted to mention or just kind of language in some ways is specifically mum guilt.
[53:30] And so I feel like I'm the only person who is going to be able to talk about this.
[53:34] But I wanted to mention it because... Ryan just covered it, I think.
[53:37] Yeah, I get it, Em.
[53:40] I want to specifically mention it because I see this in the therapy room and I also know it anecdotally amongst my friends and in my life.
[53:52] is the complicating factor here of what would be the internalised ideal mum or the good mum.
[54:00] And yes, we can apply this to dads or parents in general, but there's something specific traditionally and historically around the idealised mother.
[54:09] And I think in our current generation, it's really bringing up potentially more experiences of guilt, particularly for working mothers.
[54:21] Yeah.
[54:22] So if we look at like the traditional or what we'd say is like the motherhood myth, which is that the mum is available and responsible for the child at all times.
[54:33] And so that would traditionally be a stay-at-home mum.
[54:38] And so that stay-at-home mum is almost like responsible for every cell and fibre of the child.
[54:44] And that in essence this is the role that we take is to take care of this child.
[54:51] Now, like as we know, as time has gone on and looking through like more of a feminist lens, we can see that for some working mums now in this era is that with a model that has been presented to us often by our mothers or our family of origin, which was one generation before us, obviously, the model that we were presented was the stay at home mum.
[55:17] This is a generalisation I realise.
[55:20] The predominant model was a stay at home mum that did everything for us, that was there for every event, that made the birthday cakes, that attended every school pick up and drop off.
[55:29] Every single event was there.
[55:31] Okay.
[55:32] And now people of my generation and people in this like maybe last 20 years
[55:38] And now also becoming working mums, professionals, having lives outside of this idealised mother role.
[55:47] Is that kind of making sense?
[55:48] Yeah.
[55:48] Yeah.
[55:49] So now when it comes to parenting as a mother in this era, in this generation,
[55:57] My sense is that we are getting so much more exposed to guilt because we are violating this idealised mother role that we have to be available and doing everything in order to be the good mum.
[56:12] Now, when we don't do that, like you buy the cake from the store instead of making it yourself, or you're not at every single pickup.
[56:21] When you do those things, now we get a violation of this motherhood myth.
[56:25] Hmm.
[56:27] And then guilt is here.
[56:29] Yeah.
[56:30] I am made more aware of this the more Soph and I talk about parenting.
[56:35] But the example that's really jumping into my mind is a discussion we had about like I think –
[56:43] one of the boys went off to kinder with like a dirty T-shirt or something like that and I was like, who cares?
[56:50] Like if people are going to judge you, then who cares about people who judge you for something like that?
[56:56] It's a one-off.
[56:57] And I hadn't realised a completely different standard that Soph has
[57:02] Holds, even though she knows that logically to be the case, she's just feels guilt about it straight away.
[57:07] If they're not perfectly dressed to go to kinder.
[57:10] And I was like, it's a one-off we do.
[57:12] They're well-dressed most times.
[57:14] And it's a dirty t-shirt this one.
[57:16] Yeah.
[57:16] Society is like a bit more forgiving.
[57:18] If a dad does it, it's like funny.
[57:19] Yeah, if a dad does it, yeah, exactly.
[57:21] You get so much.
[57:22] And there are millions of examples as a dad that you get all this, like it can be laughed off.
[57:27] It can be, oh, at least he's trying.
[57:29] What a great daddy is that he's even there.
[57:31] Whereas for a mum, if it's not done perfectly, it's like there's a guilt.
[57:35] And I just, it's, yeah, it never ceases to amaze me how embedded that is, even though Soph knows logically it's bullshit.
[57:43] Yes, exactly.
[57:44] And I think us being able to talk about it feels really important because we need to name it to recognise it's here and then to know how to work with that.
[57:52] Did you feel that at your friend's house, Ryan?
[57:54] Yeah.
[57:54] Oh, yeah, absolutely here.
[57:57] Yeah, no, I'm there with you guys.
[58:01] I hear you.
[58:03] And look, this doesn't actually need to be specifically about parenting.
[58:06] And it can also really be around, you know, even being, uh, uh, and I quote unquote, like a good son or a good daughter.
[58:14] You know, what's the, what's the model that you have been exposed to?
[58:18] Is it one where you drop everything that you sacrifice your own needs to care for the people in your life?
[58:24] And so what I guess the invitation here is to look at is what were my models?
[58:29] What have I internalised and almost like metabolised as my standards of expectation?
[58:38] So we can think about this, like even if we look at, you know, caring for ageing parents, you know, guilt is very common in that space because, you know, it tugs, of course, on the heartstrings that my parents are ageing and they're in aged care, for example, and
[58:55] They want me to be there every day, but I also have my own needs or maybe I'm caring for my children as well.
[59:00] So guilt in that space is extremely common.
[59:04] And again, this question here is like, how do I sit with the guilt?
[59:07] What do I do with the guilt when it's here?
[59:08] And the first thing for me is always noticing and naming that it's here.
[59:15] How does that make sense so far?
[59:16] Yeah.
[59:18] Yeah, that rings true.
[59:20] The aged care I can imagine would be, yeah, extreme guilt because it's if...
[59:29] Because it's one thing to go like, oh, well, people will be disappointed.
[59:35] But it feels like it's like double guilt because it's like, well, they looked after me.
[59:42] And now for me to not like sort of like pay the favour, pay it back seems wrong.
[59:51] Mm-hmm.
[59:52] Yeah, it's really hard.
[59:53] And so I think we want to have a look at, first of all, what are our expectations of ourselves?
[59:59] So can we lay this out and have a look at what are these expectations of ourselves?
[1:00:03] And then are they reasonable?
[1:00:05] Like, is this actually realistic for me to go, for example, for me to go and visit my parents for two hours a day?
[1:00:11] What's the cost of that?
[1:00:12] So we can kind of do this cost benefit analysis here.
[1:00:14] Like what is going to be the cost of me saying yes to this every single time?
[1:00:19] Is this taking me in the direction of my values or is this me acting out of guilt?
[1:00:24] Yep, that's great.
[1:00:25] And so this is always something that I find to be helpful.
[1:00:28] I've mentioned this a few times, the notion of the choice point, which was developed by Russ Harris and his colleagues.
[1:00:35] And it's this idea that on one pathway, we have our value direction and on the other way we have away from our value direction.
[1:00:43] What takes us away from our values is avoidance of distress and pain.
[1:00:47] And that might look like in the case of guilt, it might look like saying yes to something so I don't feel guilty, saying yes to something so I don't disappoint them.
[1:00:56] But does that take you away from your value direction?
[1:00:59] Possibly yes, not always, but possibly sometimes.
[1:01:02] So this kind of, we have to be able to slow down and to notice, am I buying into some old stories here?
[1:01:09] That to be the good daughter, the good parent, the good mum, the good sister,
[1:01:15] Am I buying into this story?
[1:01:16] Is it pushing me around or can I do something differently?
[1:01:19] Can I head more towards the direction of my values, which will mean upsetting people?
[1:01:24] It will mean exposure to pain and discomfort.
[1:01:27] But ultimately, is this in service of a more meaningful life that's full of vitality, for example?
[1:01:34] Yeah.
[1:01:35] Which obviously means that it's helpful to know what your values are.
[1:01:40] And you did an amazing episode on values, which we'll link to.
[1:01:46] Also a great part of the book, Unstuck, is around values.
[1:01:48] Thank you.
[1:01:50] I think Belle, our assistant producer here, described it as the greatest chapter in the history of the world of any book.
[1:01:56] Yeah.
[1:01:57] Oh, there you go.
[1:01:57] Jeez.
[1:01:58] So pumped.
[1:02:00] So, yeah, being clear on your values, being clear on when you violated them,
[1:02:04] And that means like, yes, being clear on when I've done something out of line that will prompt feelings of guilt, but also being clear in the actions I want to take that will send me in the direction of the life that's worth living.
[1:02:15] And that may mean disappointing people.
[1:02:17] It may mean upsetting people.
[1:02:19] But is this in service?
[1:02:21] Like, is this discomfort in service of the life I want to create?
[1:02:24] Yeah.
[1:02:25] But it's hard.
[1:02:26] This is like a guilt is a really hard thing to work with.
[1:02:30] And it comes in such different, it's like such a spectrum of feeling like guilt.
[1:02:35] It can be little guilt and then obviously huge guilt and everything in between.
[1:02:39] And it's just always popping up, always popping up.
[1:02:42] So, so helpful to think about it in terms of values.
[1:02:46] interesting to look at through the lens of neurodiversity as well I don't know how much you've looked at that but the vast array of stuff I've learnt in the last few months of my journey just like there's guilt that is the I spoke to it before but rejection sensitivity dysmorphia where you kind of are hyper vigilant on people maybe not liking you or and so you're always thinking have I done something wrong here like you I have a friend who I haven't chatted to on the phone for ages and have tried to get in touch and haven't been able to and I'm
[1:03:15] I feel guilty.
[1:03:15] I feel like I've done something, but I don't think I have, but I'm like, I must have.
[1:03:19] I must have done something.
[1:03:20] So I feel guilty.
[1:03:21] Yeah.
[1:03:21] So then there's also trying to understand, like, I think that's been really helpful for me to go, well, is this out of line with your values?
[1:03:31] No, you're just being very sensitive.
[1:03:33] Yeah, I mean, I think that that is, it requires, all of this requires us slowing down to be reflecting on our internal kind of landscape, really.
[1:03:42] See, the other thing that I want to really mention around mum, the notion of mum guilt, is really this kind of invitation to actually question whether it's guilt or not.
[1:03:53] Because I think we're very quick to label, I feel too guilty, I couldn't do that.
[1:03:57] Or I'm feeling so guilty that I'm away.
[1:03:59] But I think the invitation here is actually to think or to explore, is this feeling guilt or is it something else?
[1:04:07] So for example, if I'm away from my kids, am I actually just missing them?
[1:04:13] Am I longing to see them?
[1:04:16] Or am I disappointed?
[1:04:18] What's the feeling here?
[1:04:19] Because if we can be more granular in our labeling of emotion, we can work with it in a much more effective way.
[1:04:26] Now, if I go, oh, actually, I actually don't feel guilty.
[1:04:29] I just miss them.
[1:04:31] That's a different response.
[1:04:34] then I feel so guilty, I feel so bad.
[1:04:37] Does that make sense?
[1:04:38] Mm-hmm.
[1:04:38] Yeah.
[1:04:40] So I know that the kids are fine.
[1:04:42] Like, for example, me coming here, obviously I have to travel interstate and my kids are with their dad.
[1:04:48] I know that they're safe and well cared for, but I miss them.
[1:04:53] But if I'm honest, the guilty feeling is not here.
[1:04:56] It used to be, but I know that they're okay.
[1:05:00] Yeah, I guess it just requires that, like in the midst of the emotion, it requires that sense of being like so self-aware to kind of realise what actually, what is this signal?
[1:05:12] What does it actually mean?
[1:05:13] Yeah, yeah.
[1:05:14] Rather than jumping to conclusions or just reacting without thinking.
[1:05:18] Yeah, yeah.
[1:05:18] Because that then moves us away from this kind of idealized good mother scenario.
[1:05:24] We're actually getting more specific, more granular on what this emotion is.
[1:05:28] And then I can work with that more effectively.
[1:05:31] Is journaling a good way of trying to decipher the difference?
[1:05:34] Because I feel like sometimes it's said to, we can say like be aware, but then it's kind of like, how do I tell the difference?
[1:05:44] Yeah.
[1:05:45] I think journaling is a really great option for that.
[1:05:48] Talking with other people, therapy is obviously a really important part of this, particularly if you feel that guilt is really pushing you around.
[1:05:55] I think that if you have the opportunity and the means to see a therapist,
[1:06:00] I think that's something that's really worthwhile.
[1:06:02] Yeah.
[1:06:02] Yeah.
[1:06:04] I want to mention too also the experience of imagined guilt.
[1:06:09] So...
[1:06:12] Or let me rephrase that as having a bad thought that prompts guilt, feeling of guilt.
[1:06:19] And this is really common in the presentation of OCD, for example, and that is that you will have a thought which we might call like a bad thought.
[1:06:27] And that bad thought might be like, I hate my mum, for example.
[1:06:31] This is just like putting this very, very simply.
[1:06:33] I hate my mum.
[1:06:34] And when that thought emerges, it seems so horrific that I will immediately feel extreme guilt.
[1:06:40] So I just want to kind of mention that aspect that sits in there too, is that we can experience guilt for things we haven't done, but we think we could do or might do or have thought.
[1:06:51] So guilt absolutely manifests itself both in response to the actions we've taken and our internal experience as well.
[1:07:00] Yep.
[1:07:01] Gotcha.
[1:07:02] But again, like all of this in all the work that we do is really all around being able to notice what is happening and to slow down and to really bring some very kind of healthy questioning.
[1:07:13] And sometimes that can be really facilitated also by journaling.
[1:07:17] Like I said, kind of at the beginning of the episode, being able to talk with others and also being able to recognize when have I done enough?
[1:07:24] Like I've apologized for this now.
[1:07:26] How do I let this go?
[1:07:27] I've done what I needed to do.
[1:07:30] It's time now for me not to be held back by this feeling because it's no longer serving me or the people in my life.
[1:07:36] Or us, I was going to say.
[1:07:37] Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[1:07:39] I think also it's worth mentioning from the Ben Shuri anecdote that there's guilt over the guilt he felt is potentially, as he mentions, linked to a position of privilege that he had and tied into what's often called white guilt, I think, potentially.
[1:07:58] I wouldn't want to put words in his mouth, but I think it certainly evokes that idea anyway.
[1:08:03] Yeah, of course.
[1:08:04] I think that's a really pertinent observation in there.
[1:08:07] And yes, it's very natural that that that is an experience that we can have because we can witness the harm being done to others and that that is a place of privilege being in a white male space, for example, that you're protected from that kind of harm potentially.
[1:08:27] But yes, so this guilty feeling that arises again, like there's something very pro-social about it.
[1:08:33] So, you know, does that feeling, for example, prompt action like advocacy?
[1:08:38] But if we get pushed around by the guilt and it just leaves us actually moving more into shame or inaction or avoidance, that's when it actually moves into the more unhelpful space.
[1:08:49] So, you know, we can again name it, name that this is what I'm feeling and then we can ask, okay, so what can I do with this?
[1:08:56] Like what's this, what's this feeling prompting me to do?
[1:08:59] What's the information that sits with this?
[1:09:02] Because it does feel like when it moves into shame, it ends up rendering the initial sort of kernel of guilt that could have been quite helpful for repair or for making situation of the world a better place.
[1:09:17] Once it moves into shame, your ability to actually contribute positively to the other people in the situation or to different situations moving forward is kind of lost.
[1:09:29] Yeah.
[1:09:30] Yeah.
[1:09:30] Because shame moves us into hiding and inaction, whereas guilt, if we pay attention to it, can move us into action.
[1:09:37] Yeah.
[1:09:37] Interesting.
[1:09:38] Yeah, absolutely.
[1:09:39] And there's something kind of adjacent to that that I want to mention.
[1:09:42] It's quite a emerging field of research around what's called moral injury.
[1:09:47] and it's an observation that has occurred out of the PTSD research around, particularly around war veterans, and that there is a subset of like survivors or returnees who were exhibiting atypical signs of PTSD.
[1:10:08] So they weren't experiencing what has commonly been observed as PTSD but they
[1:10:15] getting very, very distressed by the actions that they either took or the actions that they observed others taking, that there was some sort of injury that is done to the self because of what you've witnessed or what you've seen.
[1:10:32] And that's a really, it's a very distressing place for people to be in.
[1:10:38] And it's basically when we're observing really big violations.
[1:10:43] So for example, a doctor that's made a mistake in surgery might experience moral injury or when you've witnessed something and you didn't speak up, which is maybe what Ben was experiencing too.
[1:10:54] So it's like a violation of our deep moral code and that this feeling, it's just adjacent to guilt.
[1:11:00] It's more profound than that.
[1:11:02] But I just want to mention that as something that is like maybe worthy of people kind of exploring if that feels something that's relevant to them.
[1:11:09] Yeah.
[1:11:10] So I also really want to acknowledge a group of people who might get exposed a lot to an experience of guilt or in the emotion of guilt, and that is the group of people that might be in a relationship that is characterised by domestic violence or coercive control and particularly gaslighting.
[1:11:28] And so this kind of moves us into also the...
[1:11:31] what I haven't mentioned today, which is guilt tripping and the capacity for kind of emotional manipulation.
[1:11:37] So to make people feel bad for their behaviour is a method of control.
[1:11:43] Oh God, yeah.
[1:11:45] So you shouldn't do that because that would make you a bad person or you shouldn't do that because that would make you a bad mum or bad mums or good mums don't do that.
[1:11:53] I mean, these are very generalised terms or expressions I've just used.
[1:11:57] It's much more nuanced than that.
[1:12:01] in those sorts of relationships and environments.
[1:12:04] And this can also be the same, and I will mention this particularly, this can also be the same in terms of emotionally mature parents or having emotionally manipulative parents that may be very good at making you feel guilty.
[1:12:20] So there are kind of methods there of manipulation that are
[1:12:26] very intoxicating and compelling.
[1:12:28] And I guess, you know, my acknowledgement of that is that I would strongly encourage you to seek help in deciphering where is this appropriate and where is it inappropriate?
[1:12:41] Where is it something to pay attention to?
[1:12:46] Where is it that you should feel guilty, so to speak?
[1:12:49] Yeah.
[1:12:50] God, it seems so unfair that so many kids will be made to feel guilty as kids and then grow up.
[1:13:00] But when you're a kid, you don't have the necessary, maybe some do, but I would imagine most kids don't have the perspective to know that they're being made to feel guilty by their parents or being manipulated emotionally and then maybe only deal with it, if at all, in their 30s, 40s, 50s.
[1:13:17] Yeah.
[1:13:18] Yeah.
[1:13:19] It's I mean, that's a whole other topic and there's some incredible research, particularly around parenting and being parented by an emotionally immature parent.
[1:13:29] But and also obviously in the DV space, this is a pretty critical aspect of control and coercion is making you feel so guilty that you don't have choice or that you cannot assert your own needs.
[1:13:43] that you must, um, kind of really pay attention to the needs of the other person in order for you to be safe.
[1:13:50] So in, in those circumstances, um, as best you can, I encourage you to get, uh, support, whether that's more immediately from friends or other family and to really check out like this happened, how does this sound to you?
[1:14:05] How would you take this?
[1:14:07] And then, you know, if, if more possible to seek therapy, I think that feels really critical if that's possible.
[1:14:14] I feel like all this, what we've been talking about, am I right in saying that it also kind of like this episode could sit pretty comfortably next to the boundaries?
[1:14:23] Yes.
[1:14:24] Episode you did?
[1:14:25] Yes.
[1:14:25] And it could also sit with Truth vs Harmony.
[1:14:29] Truth vs Harmony.
[1:14:30] Yep.
[1:14:31] Classic.
[1:14:31] Yep.
[1:14:32] And certainly values work.
[1:14:34] Yeah.
[1:14:35] But also more broadly, like when we're talking about an emotion that is unpleasant, we're talking about...
[1:14:40] being okay with unpleasant emotions, really.
[1:14:43] Um, and that so often we don't have the experience or the skills to know how to work with painful feelings.
[1:14:52] Um, and guilt is one of those.
[1:14:54] And we will often find myriad ways in which to avoid feeling it or to react to it or to suppress it.
[1:15:01] Yeah.
[1:15:01] Yep.
[1:15:03] It's so good.
[1:15:04] It's something that we all feel in various degrees.
[1:15:07] And I think certainly looking through the lens of values to me is just so powerful because I think so often like you experience guilt and you don't question it.
[1:15:16] I think it's a really powerful way to question it, a healthy way to question it, I should say.
[1:15:22] Yeah, really good.
[1:15:23] Nice one, Em.
[1:15:24] Awesome.
[1:15:24] Thanks, Em.
[1:15:24] Thank you, Em.
[1:15:25] Great to see you.
[1:15:25] Thanks for having me.
[1:15:26] Yeah.
[1:15:27] See you soon.
[1:15:28] Absolutely.
[1:15:30] Thanks, Em.

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