# Dr Billy Garvey - From Boyz II Men

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 22 Sep 2024, 1 h 08 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/n7skin0kkaxaw1s1m1fweclw.mp3

Dr Billy Garvey gets kids. A developmental and behavioural paediatrician with over twenty years experience, Billy is an expert at up-skilling kids with the fundamental skills of empathy, kindness, compassion and self-esteem. Due to the extremely high demand for his expertise (the clinic waiting list is most likely seven years long at this point), Billy decided to co-produce his own podcast ‘Pop-Culture Parenting’, and has also just released a book Ten Things I Wish You Knew About Your Child’s Mental Health. In this Academy, Billy gets into the nitty gritty about masculinity, role modelling and teaching emotional regulation to kids, especially young boys (we even talk about porn). Extremely generous in sharing his own story, Billy reveals the purpose behind his clinic, and how he finds immense privilege in being here to do the work that he does (you’re going to need tissues). Thank you Billy, it is always pleasure. To watch this episode on YouTube, follow this link: https://bit.ly/47BHJAw 📖Things to read: • Ten Things I Wish You Knew About Your Child’s Mental Health by Dr Billy Garvey - https://bit.ly/4eqyTb6 🎧Things to listen to: • The Academy of Imperfection - Dr Billy Garvey, Paediatrician - https://apple.co/4doCYM8 • An Imperfect Chat About Men - https://apple.co/4e2vQpP • Another Imperfect Chat About Men - https://apple.co/3B6WkaW • Pop-Culture Parenting - https://bit.ly/4e0VRpp • Kendrick Lamar: The Art of Peer Pressure - https://bit.ly/3TupbMT 💻Things to check out: • Social Learning Theory - https://bit.ly/3ZlYGwP and https://bit.ly/4dV9NkJ This episode references domestic violence. If this feels like too much for you to listen to right now, please skip this one, and come back when you are ready.

## Transcript

[0:01] Adverse childhood experiences, which are abuse, sexual, physical, emotional, neglect, emotional and physical, and household dysfunction.
[0:10] One in five kids in Australia has three or more of those.
[0:13] And if we don't do better, they'll become those men.
[0:17] Hello, old chaps, and welcome to the Academy of Imperfection, where experts in their field share their wisdom on the subject of imperfection.
[0:30] Today, we welcome back paediatric wizard Dr Billy Garvey.
[0:36] So, bang at your mash and join students Hugh, Ryan and Josh for the Academy of Imperfection.
[0:49] Well, when we first had Billy Garvey on this podcast, the crowd went wild.
[0:56] And everyone was like, get him on again, get him on again.
[0:59] And we were like, wait.
[1:01] And then like a year passed and like, come on, get on Billy Garvey again.
[1:05] We're like, wait.
[1:06] And we said that for three years.
[1:09] And here he is.
[1:10] Billy Garvey back again.
[1:13] What an intro.
[1:14] Thank you.
[1:14] That's really nice to hear.
[1:16] I mean, there is no crowd here, but I believe you anyway.
[1:18] The crowd did go wild.
[1:19] You can't hear them, but they're going wild now.
[1:20] Yeah, they're going wild wherever they are in this great moment, walking around.
[1:24] My mate, Horse, is going extra wild because your podcast is his favorite podcast.
[1:28] Oh, wow.
[1:29] Pop Culture Parenting.
[1:30] Yeah.
[1:31] He's going so well.
[1:32] Yeah, well, I have the three of you to thank because, yeah, it was pretty soon after I was on this the first time that I was like...
[1:39] God, my voice sounds good through a microphone and headphones.
[1:42] And so I was like, ah, you know, I'll go and do this.
[1:45] But, you know, the real reason that pop culture parenting exists is because our clinic wait list is so long and I just want to pull my hair out because I just keep doing the same thing over and over again.
[1:53] And parents go, wow, that's a cool way of...
[1:55] Yeah, I think when you were first on the podcast, I think I said you were waiting.
[1:59] This was like three years.
[2:01] I think it's like, I think it's seven years now.
[2:02] I think Billy's like a private school.
[2:05] You put your child's name down before you have the child.
[2:08] Yeah, you put your name down at birth and then when you get your super, you can see Billy.
[2:12] Yeah, yeah.
[2:13] So no, it's great.
[2:15] And that's essentially without, it's going to sound like just a very bad plug, but yeah, that's the book as well.
[2:21] 10 things I wish I knew about your child's mental health.
[2:22] Is that
[2:23] Yes, bang.
[2:24] Yeah.
[2:24] And if you're listening right now and you're not sure of Billy, so Dr. Billy Garvey is a senior specialist of paediatric development at a hospital that we won't name.
[2:33] Let's just say it's very big and it's Melbourne and it's quite regal.
[2:36] I think we can probably...
[2:38] It wears a crown.
[2:39] It's a big crown on the top of the building.
[2:41] Cost a fortune, but worth it.
[2:44] But you've been in developmental paediatrics for 20 years now.
[2:47] Yeah.
[2:47] You've seen it all.
[2:49] You've seen everything and...
[2:52] I jokingly say the waiting list is seven years.
[2:54] It's probably not quite that, but there is a very long waiting list to see you.
[2:57] And I remember that was kind of the premise when we first got you on the podcast was just that...
[3:02] So much of the stuff that you say to families, you kind of wish that you were yelling it out to a much bigger audience.
[3:06] And so that was kind of the first time around.
[3:10] Slightly different this time.
[3:11] We did an episode earlier this season on men's violence towards women.
[3:18] And I remember we were touring our show in Brisbane and you were our special guest on stage, which was great.
[3:26] And the topic just came up and I'm listening to you speaking, thinking it's been really nice to, you know, I got...
[3:31] security guard outside Coles gave me his opinion on our episode and the topic and his opinion is very valid but I thought gosh we've got someone you know we're friends with Billy Garvey it'd be great to chat to you about this topic someone who works um like at the coalface like you're there absolutely you're working with young kids and developmental um pediatrics is your specialty so what a great person to chat to on the topic of um
[3:55] masculinity, toxic masculinity, the way boys interact in the world, the reason that some boys turn out to be people who might perpetrate violence and other boys don't, we thought you'd be the perfect person to talk to about this.
[4:09] So go.
[4:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[4:12] It's a huge privilege.
[4:12] Yeah, because we spoke about that and...
[4:15] You know, I'm really passionate about this.
[4:18] For lots of different reasons, it'll probably come up, some vulnerability through my childhood and things like that and what I witnessed.
[4:24] But I meet these kids in clinic and I hear these horrific stories about things that happen, you know, violence against women around the world is awful.
[4:34] And I've got a little daughter who means more to me than anything else in the world.
[4:40] More than your son?
[4:41] Well, no, but it's really interesting because it's a slightly different topic.
[4:45] But my son's just turned one and I'm like starting to really bond with him now.
[4:49] But when my daughter was born, I didn't instantly bond to her.
[4:54] And parents don't talk about that enough.
[4:55] They talk about like the moment I saw my child, I was instantly connected with them.
[5:00] And I remember feeling like there was something wrong with me.
[5:02] Despite having worked with kids for over 20 years, for months I didn't connect with Yvette, my daughter.
[5:08] Now I am more connected to her than I am her amazing mum.
[5:13] And it's part of it is because she's got a sensitive temperament and she's a fiery little redhead.
[5:18] And I'm kind of a fiery little redhead, you know.
[5:20] And our temperament sticks.
[5:21] It stays with us for life.
[5:23] We can pick it up from about the first birthday, a little bit before the temperament of a kid, and they'll always be like that.
[5:30] And it comes to it, some of the violent men out there are still little sensitive boys that have never been given the support and the skills they need to succeed in how they treat women, how they treat others, and that's the work that I do.
[5:42] I catch these kids, and it's a beautiful privilege to get to catch them because none of those men that are doing these things were born with that being their destiny.
[5:52] Right.
[5:53] Also, the four of us are no better than them.
[5:55] If we'd had the same, you know, genetic build when we were born and then the same environment we'd come up in, we would be doing the same thing.
[6:03] And we need to be careful that we don't look at just punishments and consequences, especially for the teens, because it teaches them nothing.
[6:11] All it teaches them actually is you're not a part of our group.
[6:14] You're not a part of our community.
[6:16] You are inferior to us.
[6:17] And we leave them out in the cold.
[6:18] Pushes them further away.
[6:19] Yeah, it pushes them further away.
[6:21] And I have this huge privilege where I get to meet those kids.
[6:24] I hear about them first, how aggressive they are, how violent they are.
[6:27] I mean, I'm talking as well about preschool kids.
[6:30] And sometimes, every so often, I fall for it.
[6:33] Oh, I've heard about this kid and other people refuse to see him because they have violent ears.
[6:38] And then I'll see him walking down the corridor at the hospital, come in my room, and I forget about all that stuff.
[6:43] And he's just a little kid.
[6:45] He's a little kid that comes in that's heard how bad he is for years and years and years.
[6:50] And often he's lacking skills and I can help figure out what skills he's lacking and then find ways to teach him that, whether it's empathy, understanding, perspective taking, often emotional regulation.
[7:02] Like we're probably going to talk about that.
[7:04] One of the biggest problems with men and what we expect men to be is that they hold their feelings down.
[7:09] They don't display emotions, you know, and I...
[7:13] My partner Annalise is like phenomenal and she struggles to relate to Evie because she's not sensitive.
[7:18] You know, she's really calm and she does that really well.
[7:21] She's, you know, an obstetrics doctor and she needs those skills for her work and that's naturally how she is.
[7:27] And she struggles to relate to her.
[7:29] But Yvette before she was three, she's three now, was in the car and I was driving, Annalise was driving and I was sitting there and Evie's like, I want to be a boy.
[7:39] And Annalise is like, how come?
[7:40] Yeah.
[7:41] And Evie's like, boys don't cry.
[7:44] She's not even three.
[7:45] There's not like some amazing language thing.
[7:47] She's learned that already.
[7:48] And we know that by two years of age, kids will be able to distinguish between the genders.
[7:53] And Annalise jokingly was like, your dad cries all the time.
[7:58] And I was like, be careful because you're actually reinforcing that stereotype that I shouldn't be someone who cries because I'm a man.
[8:06] I thought she wasn't saying it like in a really positive way like,
[8:09] No, she was kind of like your dad cries, because I do cry all this time.
[8:11] Like I cried twice in one day recently.
[8:14] What's going on here?
[8:15] Boys don't cry.
[8:16] Boys don't cry.
[8:17] This is weird.
[8:17] Yeah, boys don't cry and boys will be boys.
[8:20] Yeah.
[8:20] Be really careful about that stuff because boys, you know, when we talk about boys will be boys, it's often to, you know, give them a pass for being aggressive or hostile or something like that.
[8:32] And I really struggle with this.
[8:33] Like I –
[8:34] I frequently am on a playground watching Evie step aside because a boy is about to push past her on the slide or a boy is about to walk up and take a ball off her.
[8:42] And now she just hands the ball over when a boy comes near her because she's so used to it.
[8:46] It doesn't do that if a girl comes near her.
[8:48] And that's a developmental difference between boys and girls that, you know, boys are very good at being assertive.
[8:56] they're not very good at being compassionate and understanding, especially in those early years of life, those preschool years.
[9:02] And we, we know that they're also more vulnerable to role modeling, you know, aggression, um, and seeing that.
[9:08] And so that's the, that's the hard thing that, you know, we have, you know, especially us that are raising boys is that how do we teach them better skills and know where that vulnerability is and, um,
[9:19] Yeah, I truly believe that the issue of what's happening in the world is it's my responsibility in how I raise Charlie, my son, to do this more than it is in how I raise Yvette.
[9:31] Now, I can teach Yvette to be careful and all of that stuff.
[9:34] But the way we solve this is really how men raise boys.
[9:39] Are you, like, with a, having a son, I guess having a son or a daughter, but having a son, like sort of what you're just saying there, do you feel an extra pressure or, like, responsibility to make sure that the son that you put into the world is responsible and has the knowledge and respectful and...
[10:01] Yeah, yeah, I definitely do.
[10:02] You know, I definitely do because we know it comes more naturally, you know, it's the way we are about girls, you know, but they're also more likely to play very early on in like caring roles with dolls and stuff like that.
[10:13] And then we're much better at girls having diverse levels of play.
[10:17] Like they can play with dolls and play house and nurse and all that stuff, but they can also do sports.
[10:21] Whereas we're much more restrictive with boys, like sports and wrestling and, you know, kicking a ball and throwing a ball and all that stuff.
[10:29] Yeah.
[10:29] So it's hard, but I also see the consequences of that in clinic, you know, so that's a lot of the boys that I see who are bullies, who are being bullied, you know, who have low self-esteem or their aspirational goal is to be more physical, be bigger, to be stronger, you know, is, is hard because I know that the actual determinant of what their adult mental health will be like, their social connection, even their income, their academic process,
[10:57] is what their social and emotional development is like.
[11:01] But we don't really value that as a society.
[11:03] Like, you know, kindness, sensitivity, we don't value that in men.
[11:07] And so none of these boys have got that as their North Star.
[11:11] I'm kind of interested, and maybe this is not worth getting bogged down in and maybe not a worthwhile path to go down, but...
[11:20] In terms of like if your own kid is struggling with something versus a kid who comes into clinic, is there a vast difference between how you're able to treat them?
[11:33] Not treat them, you don't treat your own kid.
[11:34] Engage with them, I guess.
[11:35] I don't know.
[11:36] Like is there a – I guess I'm just asking like is there a – the separation where it's like it's not your child, is that a different experience?
[11:45] I mean obviously you love your child more than those children, but do you get what I'm –
[11:49] I use a lot of the same techniques, I think, if that's what you mean.
[11:52] Like every kid and actually every parent I meet, I'm trying to connect with them and make them feel good about themselves.
[11:59] But I have to do it genuinely.
[12:00] I have to find something.
[12:02] Like it's easy with the three of you.
[12:03] Like I feel like I have a connection to the three of you because I know about qualities you have.
[12:09] that are actually what we're talking about.
[12:11] It's not how tough you are or how good you are at running and stuff.
[12:14] It's, you know, the qualities about how sensitive and kind and generous and altruistic you are.
[12:19] Hugh has taken issue with that.
[12:21] He does want you to know how good he is at running.
[12:23] Yeah, yeah.
[12:24] I'll see some videos later.
[12:25] Yeah, but it's interesting, isn't it?
[12:27] Like I love running too.
[12:28] And that's the vulnerability in me is that I actually put more effort into my athletic pursuits than I do often into my mental health pursuits.
[12:37] Like it's part of, they're tired, don't get me wrong.
[12:39] But the interesting thing about men and raising boys is that...
[12:43] We, you know, we emphasize so much the physicality and things like that.
[12:47] And we're like that too.
[12:48] Like, you know, a lot of us spend a lot of time in like golfing and fall driving and fishing and stuff, but we care way more about our kids.
[12:56] Yet we don't think about it and pursue it and read about it and practice it.
[13:01] You know what I mean?
[13:01] We just go, she'll be right.
[13:03] And, you know, the reality is she will be right is wrong.
[13:05] Like that's why I push back against this like latchkey kid, free range parenting.
[13:09] We're on top of our kids too much now because so many of them are failing.
[13:13] And we know that those kids who don't have that support and scaffold or opportunities.
[13:17] Can you say that again?
[13:18] What do you push back against?
[13:19] The latch?
[13:20] Oh yeah.
[13:20] The latch.
[13:20] I don't know if you've heard of latchkey kids.
[13:22] Like it actually came out of world war two, essentially when all the men went off to war and then the women had to go into factories and work and all these kids were just like running around on their own.
[13:30] Left to their own devices.
[13:31] Yeah.
[13:31] Left to their own devices.
[13:32] And I grew up a bit like that and, and,
[13:35] Saw some awful violence and stuff like that because of it.
[13:38] And, you know, people now will come out and say, kids are these dozed.
[13:41] Everyone's on top of them too much.
[13:43] But actually, like all of the boys that are pushing past Evie on the playground are developing antisocial behaviors.
[13:49] And there's no parents in sight.
[13:50] It's actually guiding them better.
[13:52] And go, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[13:53] Don't push past her.
[13:54] Mm-hmm.
[13:55] Like she was here first, mate.
[13:57] Yeah.
[13:57] You know, imagine what it's like for her, you know, teaching empathy.
[14:01] Yeah.
[14:01] But instead they just go, cool, I saw the other boy just pushed in front of me.
[14:05] This person's littler than me or they're a girl.
[14:08] I'll just push past them and I'll get to go on the slide and what I want.
[14:10] So it's kind of like, I mean, the thing comes to mind is helicopter parenting and people saying, oh, it's so bad.
[14:16] But when you are hovering over your child, you have the ability to teach them really valuable lessons when the time arises.
[14:25] Yeah, because we've got to remember they get lessons from so many places, like what social learning theory shows us, which is essentially that we role model and imitate.
[14:32] You know what I mean?
[14:33] We watch other people doing it, whether it's in the media or it's the other kid on the playground who gets to go before everyone else because he just steps in front of everyone else and just gets to go.
[14:43] So kids watch that and go...
[14:44] Oh, that kid got what he wants.
[14:46] But the actual hire, like this essentially very boring, there's four different stages.
[14:50] We start with classical conditioning, operant conditioning, social learning theory, which is just spoken about.
[14:55] But skill development, cognitive development is the highest order.
[14:58] And that's how do I teach, you know, a vet to be more assertive?
[15:05] Like boys are very good at being assertive.
[15:07] They're not very good at thinking about the other person in those younger years.
[15:12] So, you know, I need to teach her that, but I've also got to teach her that from a non-aggressive perspective.
[15:17] So it's like teaching her being assertive, but also being empathetic.
[15:21] Yeah, but I'm like 41.
[15:23] I struggle with being assertive without being aggressive.
[15:26] I don't know about you guys.
[15:27] You know, if someone does something wrong by you, your back gets up straight away.
[15:29] And you're like... Take it personally or you... Yeah.
[15:32] Yeah, and that's why often for those boys and for us as adults, like emotional regulation is actually the step before that.
[15:39] And you can't teach a kid emotional regulation after it's happened.
[15:43] After the fallout, the conflict, whatever.
[15:45] Yeah.
[15:46] Can I just, you, so this is a topic that you're so passionate about and you just very quickly mentioned your childhood before.
[15:53] Do you mind me asking about your childhood and your, you just said that you're a bit like that.
[15:57] You're sort of running around the streets a little bit by yourself.
[15:59] Is that?
[15:59] Yeah.
[16:00] Yeah.
[16:00] So yeah, I mean, you guys will have a lot of listeners that won't know where I grew up, but I grew up in a place called Frankston, which is like an hour out.
[16:06] Yeah.
[16:07] In Victoria.
[16:07] Yeah.
[16:08] I'm like single mum.
[16:09] She raised me and my two brothers and I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,
[16:12] You know, she was working a lot.
[16:14] She worked full-time on the weekends and waitressed at the RSL and, you know, a few nights a week.
[16:19] So I was kind of left to my own devices a lot.
[16:21] So, yeah, I ran around and saw a lot of that and was in, you know, I get in a lot of fights even in my later years.
[16:28] I remember my first ever paediatric job, first time I ever got to work with kids as like a training doctor, I had two black eyes.
[16:37] Like the first day that I did that, I had two black eyes because I'd been at a cut copy gig, which just throws us back, a band, and I'd just danced with the wrong person.
[16:48] And so when me and a mate left, we got jumped and I just got beaten up really badly.
[16:53] And the next week actually I started boxing.
[16:56] Because I was like, you know, so kind of traumatized by it.
[17:00] But that was who I was.
[17:01] Like I, I'm a little guy.
[17:04] Never in my life have I ever started a fight.
[17:06] I've never walked away from one.
[17:08] Now that might sound really tough and really strong.
[17:10] It's actually an insecurity in me because I'd rather get beaten up than have to deal with myself after having walked away from conflict.
[17:19] Why is walking away from conflict so catastrophic for you?
[17:24] Because that's my idea of masculinity, that what I grew up with was that.
[17:28] My parents separated when I was quite young, but my mum had some pretty awful relationships.
[17:33] And I still remember a guy who was very violent towards her, and I'd witnessed that.
[17:38] And I'll never in my life forget the moment that I stood up to him.
[17:43] And it was intoxicating because it was, I'm finally standing up to this guy and I can remember exactly where I was standing.
[17:51] And I was young.
[17:51] How old are we talking?
[17:53] Probably like 13, 14.
[17:55] And, you know, thankfully that was a line he wouldn't cross.
[17:59] You know, the biggest predictor of adult mental health service use is developmental trauma.
[18:05] And that's developmental trauma, what I experienced.
[18:07] And now I have a therapist and, you know, I'm very privileged to be able to access a therapist, but I meet all these kids that are actively experiencing developmental trauma.
[18:17] And so, you know, they've even done studies that if you have a little kid watch someone playing with toys, you know,
[18:24] Being rough with one of the toys, like being aggressive and hitting it and all that stuff.
[18:27] And then you take that kid and you put them in another room with different toys.
[18:30] They'll be aggressive and hit the toys and shout at them and all that stuff because they've just witnessed it and then they do it.
[18:37] Now, I didn't, you know, I watched what happened to my mom and was like, I'm never going to do that.
[18:42] myself, but it still had such a big influence on me because I saw that masculinity and aggressiveness was, you know, was intimidating.
[18:53] And that's, that's what a lot of the boys in our community experience.
[18:55] I meet all these boys that the dads are like proud of them as they get into fights and they can stick up for themselves and they're really tough.
[19:03] I don't know if you're allowed to do this, but do you have examples from in clinic where you've seen this kind of thing?
[19:07] Yeah, definitely.
[19:08] I mean, the book I talk about one who still sticks with me where he, yeah, is this gorgeous kid that was essentially, which is really common, trying to burn down schools.
[19:17] Because often these kids want to burn the world down because they've been left out.
[19:23] The kid needs love.
[19:24] The kid needs guidance.
[19:25] He needs support.
[19:25] He needs skill development, emotional regulation.
[19:27] But the problem was that kid's dad came back in his life and, yeah, got out of prison and was essentially like the kid went back because he was back trying to impress his dad, you know, and be aggressive and hostile and all those things again.
[19:42] And it was...
[19:43] Yeah, it was beautiful end to that story because, you know, I still very rarely, I don't need to see that kid much anymore in clinic because he's doing so well.
[19:53] But he was really vulnerable to becoming one of these men that's out there, you know, using these like primitive skills of aggressiveness and violence and hostility, you know.
[20:05] It feels like I'm not, as you guys know, I don't have any kids, but I feel like that would be a really, I would find that really, really challenging if I was a parent and my kid was being like naughty, quote unquote naughty, doing something wrong or hurting someone or I would find it really hard to not get angry at them.
[20:29] Yeah.
[20:29] I would find like, I know intellectually that the right thing to do is show them love.
[20:35] But in the moment, I just know that I would find it really, if I was stressed and to not get angry and to not tell the kid that's wrong, you've done the wrong thing.
[20:46] Like I would find that really, really challenging to walk that line.
[20:52] Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, we've got to remember like every emotion that we experience and the kids experience is valid.
[20:59] And so I get angry sometimes at my daughter, you know, like, and that's okay.
[21:04] I've just got to make sure that it is not detrimental to the behavior that follows it.
[21:09] you know, that I yell at her or scold her and walk away from her.
[21:13] Do you know what I mean?
[21:14] And so that's, you know, and the parent that's getting angry for their kids doing that, that's good because what they're saying is, I think this kid is better than that.
[21:23] And, you know, but then the second step is what's going on and how do I teach them how to be better?
[21:28] How do I guide them in how to be better?
[21:30] And that's what we need to role model for a lot of the boys coming up is like,
[21:35] What is healthy masculinity?
[21:37] What does that look like?
[21:38] How do we make sure that kindness and sensitivity is a big part of that?
[21:43] I mean, are there any, like, because I know we've got, like, Australian of the Year, but are there, I mean, I'm sure there are, but we need to be given out some awards for kindness and compassion.
[21:52] Yeah, well, I mean, do the three of you think that's something that you work on?
[21:56] Do you work on kindness in yourself?
[21:58] In myself?
[22:00] Yeah.
[22:02] Yes.
[22:03] I don't know if I actively work on it.
[22:05] I try and lean into it.
[22:07] I reckon I've had a complicated relationship with masculinity for my whole life.
[22:14] And I think learning to lean into and owning empathy and kindness as a form of masculinity has been something I'm constantly...
[22:24] I guess working on.
[22:25] Yeah.
[22:26] Because I see you as a really sensitive, kind guy.
[22:30] Like that's what I instantly connected with you about.
[22:34] And every time I'm in the space with you, I actually feel like that in your presence.
[22:37] Absolutely agree.
[22:39] Like you've got this beautiful sensitivity to you and it's...
[22:42] Yeah.
[22:42] Well, thank you.
[22:44] I am very flattered to hear that because it's certainly what I like to put out into the world or like to hope I am.
[22:50] But I think as a kid, I think I saw that potentially as a weakness rather than a strength.
[22:58] I think if I look back into my teenage years, especially like...
[23:04] hopefully we've moved past this, but I'm afraid I don't think we have, that I think a lot of the things that I naturally do, which I think is of empathy and kindness and a certain amount of sort of emotional intuition, I think had always been labeled as kind of feminine attributes.
[23:23] Mm-hmm.
[23:24] And as a teenager, because I think I had those attributes, I used to sing at assembly, like at school assemblies and stuff.
[23:32] There was a running joke that I was probably gay.
[23:35] And I knew I wasn't, and I would have been fine if I was.
[23:41] But at the time, I was like, I don't...
[23:44] Like everyone joking about this, but I played footy and I was pretty big and strong for my age.
[23:52] And the only thing I wasn't a very skillful footballer, but one thing that I could do, which is really counter to my personality off the field is that I was actually really good at hurting people and tackling and hitting people.
[24:04] And it was kind of the only role I could play on the field.
[24:08] And people loved it.
[24:09] Like the same guys, you know, joking about me potentially being gay, thought it was awesome and it was celebrated and it was finally an attribute that I felt was like manly.
[24:19] And so I leant into it and I did things on the footy field.
[24:23] Nothing, I mean, yeah, probably some pretty dirty stuff by standards of footy.
[24:28] Um, that to hurt people because it was kind of like a badge that I was like finally masculine.
[24:35] And I played footy till about 20.
[24:38] I stopped playing.
[24:39] I got hit in the head and, uh, I claimed at the time that the reason I stopped playing footy was cause it was like a bit of a shock to get hit in the head and had a, um, pain in my back.
[24:49] And I was like,
[24:50] Oh, this could be a thing.
[24:51] But if I'm being honest, the main reason I stopped is because the only thing I could do was hurt people.
[24:55] And I hated the fact that that's what I was doing.
[24:58] Yeah.
[24:58] And I didn't want to play footy anymore because I didn't want to be that person and turn up every weekend and be expected to be that guy on the footy field.
[25:07] Uh, and I was kind of ready to part with that idea of masculinity.
[25:11] Yeah.
[25:12] So then since then, I don't know, I've been trying to look at it.
[25:14] Why do you think that was?
[25:15] Because there's something beautiful in your background that means that, and it's probably what's present in you now, that meant that you wanted to move away from that.
[25:24] I wonder if it was a relationship or some role modelling.
[25:27] Well, role modelling, like it's so counter to our dad.
[25:32] Like our dad would have never, I can't imagine him ever physically or physically
[25:37] No, but he really enjoyed that you were that tough person.
[25:40] Because he wasn't that.
[25:41] He loved that so much.
[25:42] It made him so proud.
[25:43] Yeah.
[25:44] And then it's interestingly, I look at my youngest boy, August, who's really assertive and very, he's got that in spades from the get-go.
[25:52] He's a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful boy and very good at standing up for himself.
[25:58] And I look at that and I think that's so good because I don't see myself as very assertive or very good at standing up for myself.
[26:05] So I kind of see this in him and he's a strong little boy and I see myself going, I'm proud of my tough little boy, the assertive tough little boy.
[26:19] So it's really, and I think anyone that knows me would think of me as someone who is on a scale of empathetic and sensitive right at the point
[26:29] I'm right at one end of it, but I still fall to this idea of like, of confusing masculinity, I think.
[26:36] Yeah.
[26:36] So that's comes from your own childhood experiences.
[26:38] It comes from the social norms that sit around all of us.
[26:41] And the hardest thing is like, you know, that you talked about the gay bit.
[26:44] Yeah.
[26:46] And that's like whenever we see, for example, women's rights increase, we see toxic masculinity increase as well because it's a threat to the dominance that we have.
[26:56] And you know the alpha male crap?
[26:58] Like that actually comes from like a primatologist, someone who studied monkeys back in the 90s.
[27:05] And the reason it exists is because it was all about the purpose of the alpha male is I pass on the most genetic makeup to the next generation.
[27:13] And I resource guard and I am able to have dominance over any other male that potentially passes on through mating.
[27:20] Yeah.
[27:21] And obviously, none of us care about that anymore.
[27:24] But that came through the literature and became a part of pop culture that we were like alpha males.
[27:32] And the problem is I've got a friend who not that long ago, in an affluent, progressive part of Melbourne, was walking down the street and he had homophobic slurs shouted at him.
[27:42] He is gay.
[27:42] Yeah.
[27:43] And the problem is what the reason that's happening is because there's a car full of guys together and their identity is wanting to be a part of that masculine group.
[27:51] And the biggest predictor of whether you will do that or not is what you think others will expect you to do.
[27:56] It's the same as bullying, how we treat women, all that stuff.
[28:00] So if I'm in a group, I'm with you guys and something happens to someone, you hopefully will expect me to be nice.
[28:07] Yeah.
[28:08] to be kind, to be compassionate.
[28:09] So that's part of the reason I'll do it is because I'm with you guys.
[28:13] So we're talking about mob mentality.
[28:15] Yeah, mob mentality.
[28:16] But most of the time it's the other way.
[28:18] It's like the guys on the construction site watching the woman walk past and they go,
[28:24] People are expecting me to catcaller.
[28:25] If they were standing there on their own, they'd never do it, hopefully.
[28:29] Okay.
[28:29] Do you know what I mean?
[28:30] And that's that influence.
[28:31] It's the boys being boys.
[28:33] And, you know, that's the hard thing is that because of you, you'll be so protective for your son.
[28:38] But a lot of these kids come up and they were like, everyone just reinforced my assertiveness.
[28:44] It's the Kendrick Lamar's The Art of Peer Pressure Do you know that song he talks about He's about to catch his first felony He's never usually violent but he's with his homies That's what he says There's something really interesting in that Like my predictor of my behaviour is what I expect Others expect me to do Yeah
[29:01] Because certainly I think a little bit of pushback that I heard is that I shouldn't be expected to like be responsible for other men's behavior.
[29:11] Like I'm good.
[29:12] And I certainly had a, when we talked about doing that episode, Bridge brought it up and my immediate reaction was kind of like, well, I don't know what I'd have to say on that topic because I know it's so wrong.
[29:24] So like what value is there me just sort of saying, well, yeah, it's wrong to hit women.
[29:29] But it's really interesting when you extrapolate from what you're saying before that if it's never vocalized and never spoken about in groups, then there's never a chance to change the expectation of behavior.
[29:41] Yeah, yeah, definitely.
[29:42] Like we need to talk about this.
[29:43] You guys have got a really amazing privilege of having a really loud voice, but it's not, we're not just talking about the, like, obviously hopefully everyone who's listening to you agrees, but it's the pervasive stuff that happens.
[29:54] Like we just think, you know, we think women in sports is unusual.
[29:59] We think women in positions of power is unusual.
[30:01] We think...
[30:02] Like we're not actually really equitable in opportunities that we give.
[30:06] And it's the same as like, you know, whenever we feel like someone's not in part of our in group, we are vulnerable to excluding them, including subconsciously.
[30:15] And so that's what we do.
[30:17] Like, you know, we want little girls to be pretty.
[30:19] We want boys to be strong.
[30:21] you know, and we want them to be tough and all of those things.
[30:24] And so that's the challenge is that we, all of us have a responsibility.
[30:28] And I truly believe it sits with us because we have a greater potential to influence them as well.
[30:33] Like little boys look up to men.
[30:35] I meet these boys in clinic, these teenage boys.
[30:38] There's one at the moment, he's just like really aggressive and hostile.
[30:40] And this amazing fellow is phenomenal.
[30:43] He's probably a better clinician than I am, but you can't get a word out of him.
[30:47] He just tells her to get stuffed.
[30:48] I walk in the room, he talks to me about all this stuff, you know, and I can do that with him because I have a better ability to influence him because he sees me as similar.
[30:58] And I tell him the stories about me getting into fights.
[31:01] I show him my skateboard injury.
[31:03] I talk about how I got kicked out of school and then he opens up to me.
[31:07] And so that's what we've got to do.
[31:08] We've got to have these conversations about actually there's lots of different ways to be strong.
[31:13] Actually being a man is looking after people.
[31:17] Yeah.
[31:18] Do you know what I mean?
[31:18] And making sure that everyone is inclusion.
[31:21] Inclusion really pisses me off because inclusion comes across as this, like, I'll be kind, make sure everyone has a go, but actually we'll be a stronger society if we give everyone the opportunity to contribute to it.
[31:35] And whether it's the violent boy that's left out or, you know, the, the little girl who can't possibly be on the sports team or anything like that.
[31:44] We're a weaker community because of it.
[31:46] You know, the extremes is the men's violent stuff.
[31:50] And these little kids at a very early age learn that boys and girls are different.
[31:56] You know, that boys are aggressive, assertive, dominant, you know, valued for those qualities and girls are there to look after us and care for us.
[32:05] An example that's coming to mind that, um, cause I wasn't, I don't like, I'm trying to remember like what my experience with violence and aggression was as a boy.
[32:15] But the thing that's coming to mind, which I still say now almost every week is when I go to the footy and being in the stands, watching the footy, like AFL and how the,
[32:28] men, when there's a big hit, when like on the field and there's a big hit or there's like some sort of fight, the men, not all men, but often the men like, yes, like they get really excited about the aggression or like if your team, a player in your team hit someone on the other team like really hard, it's rewarded and cheered.
[32:48] And I guess if you're a little boy and you're seeing that and you're seeing your dad or other guys getting excited about the aggression, then you're obviously learning that that's a good thing.
[33:01] Yeah, we'll think about your experience, Josh.
[33:04] Yeah, it wasn't dad, but it was older men when I was younger.
[33:09] Not men, I guess older teenagers.
[33:12] So it was like, this is going to be a funny reference for you, but it was probably hearing about someone like Simon Baker.
[33:22] From the mentalist?
[33:23] No, different type of guy that you went to school with who was really muscly and strong.
[33:28] And when you see that on a pedestal of like there's a really strong guy six years older than you who is like celebrated at the school as like this big, strong, tough guy.
[33:36] And I'm in grade six.
[33:37] And all I've got is that I've grown, had a growth spurt a bit earlier than everyone else.
[33:41] So I am bigger and stronger than everyone else.
[33:43] then I've finally got something I can latch onto as a social currency that will get me somewhere.
[33:50] So this guy came to our school in year 12 and he was like massive and he would fight everyone all the time from other schools and we couldn't believe it was on our team all of a sudden.
[33:58] And he played first 13 footy in the same team as me and Josh would come and watch us as a 12-year-old and he was your favourite player.
[34:05] I don't think he touched the ball once.
[34:06] He just used to bash people.
[34:07] It's Josh's favorite.
[34:09] Yeah.
[34:09] Wow.
[34:11] There's two things that's come out of this I really want to ask you about.
[34:13] One is power because I don't quite understand how.
[34:20] To me, there's a seeking of power that's going on for a lot of men and boys.
[34:27] And I've always felt that if I can really own empathy and kindness and my own sort of emotional, what I've come to understand as emotional regulation and sort of move through life
[34:42] friction, more frictionless than other people.
[34:44] That's a form of power that's kind of untouchable and I love it as opposed to a form of power that's quite physically or aggressive or dominating.
[34:53] And I guess to answer your question, that's the thing that I'm trying to work on.
[34:58] Is that, is power a helpful lens to look through this stuff under or is it kind of redundant?
[35:04] So why, why do we seek power?
[35:08] I think to, for self-esteem and self-fulfillment or like to feel like I'm worth something and I mean something.
[35:17] Yeah.
[35:18] And do we aim for high self-esteem?
[35:21] I'm being a bit unfair, but you're so good at answering these questions.
[35:24] I think, yeah, I think we, I think that's what we say we aim for.
[35:28] Yeah.
[35:29] So we should aim for secure self-esteem instead of high self-esteem.
[35:33] And secure self-esteem is I can take negative feedback.
[35:36] I can fail.
[35:37] Also, my success is not who I am.
[35:40] So you weren't able to be tough on the footy ground that day and you got knocked around a bit and you maybe even lost them the game, but that's okay.
[35:47] Yeah.
[35:49] You know, you can take that.
[35:50] But also I see a lot of boys in clinic that their entire identity is tied to their athletic prowess.
[35:58] You know, I've got a gorgeous kid at the moment who's, you know, at a national level athletically.
[36:04] and you know what he does, it's slightly off topic, but it talks about how fragile his self-esteem is.
[36:10] I said to him, like he's really struggled socially and he's having a lot of like anxiety and stuff.
[36:14] And I was like, what's it like in the playground?
[36:17] Cause the playground is Lord of the flies.
[36:19] You know, the playground is all, all of us can probably think about vulnerabilities in the playground because you,
[36:24] Classroom is like this structured, predictable, safe environment, not for all kids but for a lot of kids.
[36:29] They go out to the playground, Lord of the Flies.
[36:31] I said to this kid, do you have any mates at school?
[36:33] Like what are you doing lunchtime?
[36:35] He's like, there's one group of kids that if I don't say anything, they'll let me stand there with them.
[36:41] He doesn't have a single friend.
[36:42] So he walks around and that's how insecure his self-esteem is that he, he's like, I'm lucky that I've got these kids.
[36:50] He's like, he's like nationally performing in his sport.
[36:55] And, you know, there's this, this thing that he's like, he actually needs support in building a secure self-esteem and understanding he deserves better than that.
[37:04] You know, and that's the thing is a lot of the, you know, he's put so much energy into athletic pursuits that it completely defines him.
[37:12] He injures himself and stops playing.
[37:14] What does he have?
[37:15] You know, he's got an amazing family, but he just struggles with that.
[37:18] And we kind of...
[37:19] The reason that we seek power as well is because it gives us control.
[37:23] And a lot of the time we want control is because it's really unsafe and vulnerable to not have it.
[37:29] These little kids, they want control.
[37:30] These teenagers want control.
[37:32] I saw a kid the other day that is like, once again, kicked out of heaps of schools and he's at this new one.
[37:37] He's been there a couple of months and I'm like, do you have any mates?
[37:42] He's like, I don't need mates.
[37:43] Yeah.
[37:44] I'm like, what about like when you, you know, just hanging around school and stuff.
[37:48] He's like, none of them boys will even stare at me and all the girls just want to be with me.
[37:52] And I'm like, as I mates for years, like he's got a learning disability, you know, hasn't seen his dad for, I think a decade, you know, but he's like, he walks around with such a fragile self-esteem that he's telling himself he's in control so much.
[38:09] that every boy doesn't look at him because they're afraid of him and every girl wants to be with him.
[38:15] Now, he's probably out of everyone I'm seeing at the moment.
[38:17] He's the one I'm the most worried about, about when he leaves paediatric care and goes into adult services that he'll just not show up because he doesn't care about going to therapy and he'll be vulnerable to just walking around the world feeling like that because he wants control and power.
[38:36] The other thing that I see a lot now with men is, and in terms of what you said, Billy, about men's identity being tied up with being strong or successful, I feel like there's a big thing now about being rich and having lots of money.
[38:57] And I think like, you know, I know a few guys who their self-esteem is low, but they look up to men who are rich and powerful.
[39:09] Yeah.
[39:10] And it's often an insecurity.
[39:12] So it's an insecurity.
[39:13] It's also quite an outdated form of masculinity.
[39:16] So it was like, I'm the provider, I'm the breadwinner.
[39:20] Kids that are lost are the most vulnerable to this stuff because they see this guy's got heaps of money or this guy's really tough and he just tells everyone to get stuffed.
[39:29] And he's my model because I'm out, you know, and these kids get isolated and all these kids that are running around, breaking into houses, doing all this stuff at the moment.
[39:38] That is because we didn't give them a better path.
[39:40] We didn't give them better role models.
[39:41] We saw them as different to us.
[39:43] And it's the same as like,
[39:44] homosexuality or women or people that are different to us.
[39:48] It's a normal thing in childhood, especially in preschool years, to struggle to be able to connect with them.
[39:53] But so many of us get stuck and stay there, especially when our control gets threatened, our power gets threatened, such as when we go through economic crises and things like that.
[40:03] Immigrants are going to come steal our jobs.
[40:05] And so kids are watching all of the society be like that and they're going, that's how I should be.
[40:11] That's a social norm.
[40:13] Like I put walls up around people who are not like me and we've got to get better than that.
[40:18] And that's why one of the pathways to healing this is finding common ground.
[40:22] You know, we know bullying strategies and all those things.
[40:25] If we want to have better, you know...
[40:28] behaviors in a community, what we actually have to find is to sit down and have common ground.
[40:33] And that's why storytelling, you guys do it on the podcast, storytelling is the way that we connect and relate to people because then we find similarities between us, you know, and that's really important.
[40:43] Can I ask a very specific question?
[40:45] Yeah, go for it.
[40:46] And I know it's a very, very complicated issue, but I just wondered if there's something like a general theme you see.
[40:53] So we did a whole episode on
[40:57] when men are violent towards women and violence can take many forms.
[41:00] It can be physical, it can be emotional.
[41:03] I'm so interested to know what is it that, that happens or what has happened to a male that, that causes him to take that step to be violent, um, towards a woman.
[41:18] Yeah, usually significant adverse childhood experiences.
[41:22] They have a really low frustration tolerance, which a big part of it is there's two things that make up frustration tolerance.
[41:29] It's emotional regulation and they've usually known and shown them that, you know, so they were never taught as a toddler how to regulate their emotions.
[41:38] And you can teach that.
[41:38] I teach that to Yvette, she's three.
[41:41] And I teach that to her almost every day.
[41:42] How do you teach her that?
[41:43] What do you do?
[41:43] So, yeah, it's mental health first aid.
[41:46] It's co-regulation.
[41:47] First step is always, always, always, always.
[41:51] I make sure my emotions are in check first.
[41:53] Sometimes I really struggle with that because she's refusing to get in the car.
[41:57] She's, you know, throwing something, a meal I've made across the room, whatever.
[42:00] And so a lot of the work is in that.
[42:03] And then I just get down to her level physically.
[42:07] And then I've learnt and every single kid is different.
[42:10] That's why I never believe anyone is like, this is the one way.
[42:12] Yeah.
[42:13] she has to come to me.
[42:14] I have to get down, let her come to me.
[42:16] If I go to her, she'll run away from me.
[42:19] And then I bring her to me.
[42:20] We've gotten to the point now where we're so good at it that she knows what's going to happen.
[42:24] And we both sit there and do these deep breathing exercises.
[42:27] And it's quite funny because sometimes it happens out on the street and it's like me and her just, I'm like down on my knees, like just looking at her and open body, slow, low tone of my voice.
[42:39] And I'm just like, all right, let's do some breaths.
[42:40] Mm-hmm.
[42:41] And I have to validate that experience she's having, even if it's really pissed me off that she's three and she's having this.
[42:47] So what happens if we don't do that with kids, especially boys, who are more likely to be hyperactive and impulsive from a very young age, who've got good data on that,
[42:56] Then what happens is there are men who hasn't been taught emotional regulation.
[43:01] They're so quick to action and they have learned that violence is a way to do it through role modeling, through media.
[43:09] They weren't given a better path.
[43:10] The best way to stop someone doing something, whether it's a three-year-old or a 30-year-old who's doing that, is to teach them how to do something better.
[43:18] A lot of the time we say, stop doing that.
[43:21] But we're not actually teaching that man or this little kid how to do that.
[43:26] Now, all my work is with kids.
[43:28] And the reason I do that is because there's always hope.
[43:31] Even the 18-year-old who's about to put in juvenile detention, I'm in a very privileged position that thanks to like 14 years of full-time university and 20 years of doing this stuff,
[43:44] I've got a huge bank of stuff that I can use once I've connected with him and I've got his trust.
[43:50] So that's what I do.
[43:51] And I want to catch that man who's doing what you're talking about before he does that because we can do that.
[43:58] We can develop the skills and we know what emotional regulation is.
[44:02] We know how to do that and build it in people.
[44:04] So typically it could be a neglected child.
[44:07] I'm talking about boys really here who –
[44:10] who when they get distressed, like any child would, the parents are either not there or they just get really angry at them and potentially use violence themselves to stop their behaviour.
[44:21] Yeah, do you know what else they do?
[44:22] They get angry and they walk away.
[44:24] Right.
[44:25] And the kids left on their own to figure it out.
[44:28] And often escalating is how I get them back.
[44:31] Yeah.
[44:31] Right.
[44:32] I become even more aggressive.
[44:33] I become even more violent.
[44:34] That's how they'll come back.
[44:35] Instead of saying, you mean the kid gets even worse and the parent will come back.
[44:39] Yeah.
[44:39] And the kid learns that's what gets support.
[44:42] Throwing a chair across the classroom, smashing a window, you know, whatever, hitting my brother again.
[44:49] All of that stuff.
[44:49] That's what gets attention.
[44:50] Yeah.
[44:51] And so that's called a negative coercion cycle and they just kind of get caught up in it.
[44:54] But you're right.
[44:55] Like adverse childhood experiences, which are abuse, sexual, physical, emotional, neglect, emotional and physical and household dysfunction, parental mental illness, you know, violence in the home, maternal, parental, substance abuse, all of that stuff.
[45:13] So these are the predictors.
[45:14] Yeah.
[45:14] So these are the biggest predictors, you know, of this adverse childhood experiences.
[45:18] One in five kids in Australia has three or more of those in their childhood.
[45:22] Yeah.
[45:23] Okay.
[45:24] So one in 32 kids in this country has active involvement from child protection.
[45:28] And if we don't do better, they'll become those men.
[45:32] I'm interested to know what role pornography, like it's so accessible and such a universal thing for boys or men, I should say.
[45:41] But what role does that play?
[45:44] And can that be very damaging as well?
[45:47] Yeah, that can be hugely damaging because we know that when we survey all across the world, actually teenagers, a lot of them, including girls, you know, have had exposure to pornography and often unintentionally, you know, at a young age because of an older sibling or someone else who's, you know, exposed them to that.
[46:07] And that can be really traumatizing to see that, especially, you know, some of the awful content that's out there.
[46:11] And we didn't have to worry about this when we were growing up.
[46:13] It was, you know,
[46:14] behind, like literally behind a curtain, you know, in movie store, in video stores and stuff like that.
[46:19] But now it's like the click of a button on a phone.
[46:23] The really big problem with it is it can be often traumatizing to the viewer, but it's also that what we talk about, that social learning theory, doesn't just come from watching people.
[46:32] someone else doing something directly.
[46:34] So, you know, I watch Ryan like be rude to a barista and then I'm like, oh, that's okay to do that because I've seen someone do it.
[46:40] But you can see it through media formats as well.
[46:43] And so the media format that objectifies women or, you know, shows that this is how you treat them physically when you're being intimate with them is really, really vulnerable because then that's kind of what gets taught as the social norm.
[46:56] And the hardest bit about that thing is that
[47:00] Parents don't often have an awareness of it.
[47:02] So this is where you have to be really proactive.
[47:04] You have to be really proactive in actually having open conversations and regarding anything, whether it's moral development, how we treat women and all that stuff, we need to guide kids towards it.
[47:14] We don't tell them this is how to be.
[47:16] We say this is how I am and this is why.
[47:19] I'm really respectful of everyone else.
[47:21] This is what consent in all aspects of my relationship is.
[47:25] with your mum is like, this is how I know that someone is appreciating the way that I be with them.
[47:31] And that includes when you're being intimate with them.
[47:35] This is how we really respect each other.
[47:37] This is how we know these are hard boundaries.
[47:40] This is a hard boundary for me.
[47:43] I never, never, ever, ever hurt anyone.
[47:46] you know, and including when I'm being intimate with them and things like that.
[47:50] And, you know, little boys who don't have that role modeling, especially for men, it's just really, really scary.
[47:57] And the awful thing is that women have held the weight of this, like, you know,
[48:01] Gina Davis has done this amazing work in equity in media.
[48:04] Like I used Thelma and Louise.
[48:06] I still cry at the end of that movie every time, I've watched like 40 times, but I used it to demonstrate mental health first aid, but she's amazing because she's done so much advocacy in this space for women in media, you know, and it's a really important thing that we see powerful women in media.
[48:20] We see women that are valued, not women that are degraded or women that are seen as objects.
[48:24] So it's actually not just pornography.
[48:26] Yeah.
[48:27] That's the extreme of it.
[48:29] But what we've talked about this whole time is like role modeling, what healthy behaviors are, what is empathy, what is respect, what is understanding another's perspective, what that might feel like to be treated like that, including physically, including, you know, intimately, things like that.
[48:44] Those are conversations that we have to have proactively, not wait, because your child might not come to you and say, Hey, I've just seen pornography and I've just seen this man do this awful thing to this woman.
[48:54] And it looked like,
[48:56] that was what I'm meant to do when I'm now intimate with a woman in the future.
[48:59] Like, and you, you also have to make sure you create really open spaces and practice them coming to you and opening up conversations that are safe.
[49:07] And we really can't underestimate how accessible it is.
[49:10] And at such a young age, I, you might know the exact research this was, but I read somewhere that research or surveys done in Australia showed that 100% of 14 year old boys in Australia have seen violent pornography and 80% of
[49:24] 14-year-old girls have seen violent pornography.
[49:26] And just to your point there, I mean, I think about a 14-year-old girl seeing that and thinking that's what's going to happen to me or that's what's expected of me to put up with.
[49:35] But then a boy also at a vulnerable point going, I don't really know what I'm meant to do, but okay, look, that's what I do.
[49:41] Yeah.
[49:42] It's a really frightening space.
[49:43] So all of us, including me, including you guys, how do you role model healthy intimacy with your partner in front of your kids?
[49:51] I do do that.
[49:52] Yeah, you show them how much you love them, physically affectionate.
[49:55] You know, what does it look like?
[49:56] How do I know that your mum is, you know, just being, you know, cuddling, kissing and all that stuff.
[50:02] Like we often do that stuff behind closed doors.
[50:05] And then if the only imagery that they see is awful stuff, then they go, well, I don't actually, I've never seen healthy.
[50:13] You know what I mean?
[50:14] So remembering intimacy is not just sex.
[50:16] It's like just intimately hugging you when I got here.
[50:19] You know what I mean?
[50:20] And that's positive role modeling of, you know, two men being intimate with each other, you know, connecting physically and all of that stuff.
[50:28] And then, you know,
[50:30] Cool.
[50:30] I've seen that thousands of times.
[50:33] I've seen violent pornography once and it felt really uncomfortable and wrong because of how much I've had healthy intimacy and affection role modeled to me.
[50:42] Men are hopeless at it.
[50:44] We don't do it.
[50:45] You know, I don't know about you.
[50:46] I've got to be better with Annalise.
[50:47] Yeah.
[50:48] I adore her and I should make sure that, you know, appropriate levels of affection are role model towards her in front of my kids.
[50:55] But what you say makes so much sense, like just inundating your kids with examples of positive, intimate connection.
[51:02] Yeah.
[51:02] Absolutely inundating them so that when they see that, it's like that seems weird to me.
[51:06] Yeah, that's out of place.
[51:07] Because at 14, you're so impressionable emotionally
[51:11] And I know for me, it's like at that age, it's like the terror of having to have a sexual experience.
[51:17] It's like, I don't know what to do.
[51:18] So you're sort of desperately seeking out, like, you can't ask.
[51:22] Well, maybe you can, but I didn't feel comfortable to ask any friends or older men.
[51:26] It's like, what is the right thing to do?
[51:28] You're sort of like guessing and hoping.
[51:31] And then for me, it's like.
[51:33] wanting to, when you do have a sexual experience, it's just hoping that you come across like you know what you're doing.
[51:40] Like you should be an expert at it at 14 or 15.
[51:42] Yeah, but you know, we should be really understanding that we need to earn that relationship and that trust and that practice with kids when they're really young.
[51:52] That you, it's okay for you to come to me, especially something awkward as puberty and you're getting this big hormonal surge and you're finding yourself attracted to, you know,
[52:01] either same sex or different sex or whatever.
[52:04] And I will guide you because, you know, teenage years is really about practicing being an adult, but you need adults to guide you in that, you know, because it'll be mid twenties before you actually get the cognitive brain capacity to be able to succeed at it and have all the skills.
[52:17] So we need to be the safety net.
[52:18] And it doesn't mean that you,
[52:20] If you've got a teenager that you, for whatever reason, your own mental illness, your, all your own stresses as a parent, that you haven't been able to build that connection, you can still build it now.
[52:30] Just by start being sensitive, responsive, predictable.
[52:34] I'm here nonjudgmentally.
[52:35] I'll support you.
[52:36] My role is that I care about you.
[52:38] What matters to you?
[52:39] And then after time, they might go.
[52:42] Hey, I'm really struggling with this component of like what's happening at school or how I feel about myself or how I feel about other people or some content that I've seen.
[52:50] That's probably the most important thing that we do because we want, we want them to come to us and see us as a source of support.
[52:57] We don't want to be on top of them.
[52:59] Yeah.
[53:00] Awesome.
[53:01] The, um, security guard who bailed me up outside the supermarket said to me, um, I saw your thing you did on the project, uh, cause we were on the project talking about this after we did the episode.
[53:12] And he said, it's such a waste of time.
[53:13] He says, men are always going to be violent.
[53:14] That's the way we are.
[53:15] That's why we're born.
[53:16] I was like, I don't think anyone's ever looked at a child the moment they're born and gone, this one's going to be violent or this one's toxic.
[53:23] But people would have said that was what I was going to become.
[53:25] So, you know, like I might tell you, I'll just get emotional telling you.
[53:28] I'll tell you the reason I didn't.
[53:30] It might be the last thing I'll be able to say in the episode because I get emotional about the story.
[53:34] But security guards are a great example.
[53:37] Think about, you know, a long time ago for me, maybe not so long ago for you, mate.
[53:41] Going clubbing.
[53:43] I'm flattered that you looked at me.
[53:45] Think about going clubbing and you know, like you're with a bunch of boys and they won't let you in.
[53:52] The security guard.
[53:53] Now there's two different ways those security guards will approach that and they've both learned them in childhood.
[53:59] One is I'm going to be more aggressive and hostile.
[54:01] I'm going to physically intimidate you and tell you you're not allowed in here.
[54:05] And you think about when you experience that, you got your back up.
[54:09] Like I got my back up all the time and, you know, they would have been internally laughing, probably outwardly laughing as well when I was a teenager and in my early 20s going, who did this guy think he is that he's going to intimidate me to get in here?
[54:20] But that's what I saw, hostility, dominance, you know, power struggle like what you talked about.
[54:25] There's the other form though, isn't there?
[54:26] There's the security guard that's like, hey, I'm so sorry.
[54:29] It's so annoying.
[54:31] And they connect with you and they're calm.
[54:34] And they say, mate, I'm so sorry you can't come in.
[54:36] It's just like my boss would give me a hard time if I let this many boys in.
[54:40] It's really frustrating.
[54:42] Hey, do you know what you can do is if you cruise over to this other place,
[54:46] You know, because they're connecting, they're understanding, they're validating the experience you have instead of just coming out hostile.
[54:51] And that's why I disagree with the path is set.
[54:55] It's because so much of what we're role modeling, and I don't know that person you bumped into, but potentially is their own insecurity and their own lack of conflict resolution and emotional regulation means that when they're met with a challenge, especially a confrontation from another male, they assert their dominance again.
[55:13] So all the things you mentioned before, those predictors of what could lead to a boy becoming quite violent as a male, all those things...
[55:23] I mean, that's out of that child's control.
[55:25] I mean, all this stuff's out of the child's control, but dealt with in the right way by a role model or by a positive adult relationship, male relationship, or it could be a...
[55:37] The beautiful thing about this stuff is there are, you know, there's evidence around positive childhood experiences and boys need these arguably more than girls.
[55:45] And, you know, those things are, you know, having two non-parental adults that take a genuine interest in me.
[55:51] And that's where, so sports can be really hard because sports and clubs can actually perpetuate macho attitudes of hide your feelings, exclude women and non-typical men, especially gay men, they can't be part of this club.
[56:06] Hmm.
[56:06] So they perpetuate that, but they can actually be amazing for girls in terms of teaching them how to be assertive.
[56:12] And they can be amazing for boys in showing them, you know, that I genuinely care about you.
[56:17] That's the best thing coaches do is that I unconditionally support you and care about who you are, not teach you how to kick a ball.
[56:24] The second one is having at least one adult in my home that protects me.
[56:29] Being able to talk to my family about my feelings, participating in community traditions.
[56:36] Our culture protects us.
[56:37] And this is why people who come from a different culture and don't have any connection to it are more vulnerable because they're not a part of the footy culture.
[56:45] That's really protective, you know what I mean, for a lot of people because it helps you connect and identify yourself differently.
[56:52] feeling a part of the school community and having friends that really care about me.
[56:57] You know, those are the factors that will protect kids from having these experiences, but also heal those that have had them.
[57:03] And I spend more time in clinic trying to find those things for kids than I do making diagnoses or writing scripts for medication.
[57:11] Sometimes kids need it to be able to regulate their impulses or deal with their anxiety or whatever it is, but there's no skill development in it.
[57:19] And so that's what we actually need, but we need to connect with people first.
[57:23] And these boys that have no one that connects with them, they'll run around and then they'll find another dysfunctional boy.
[57:29] Yeah.
[57:30] who is also talking down to women, breaking into cars, whatever.
[57:36] And they're like, I just want to belong.
[57:38] And if belonging means that I also break into cars and I might go to jail and my parents will be furious when they find out about it.
[57:47] And that's the kid I was.
[57:49] That's why I got kicked out of school.
[57:50] So I just wanted to belong and I was trying to impress people.
[57:53] by being assertive and having a go at authority figures and all that stuff, like all of the guys that I am up with, you know, it's just how we were.
[58:01] And like you made on the footy field, that's what I saw as me being good enough.
[58:06] And I was really lucky that, you know, that wasn't the way that I stayed, you know, but it wasn't because I was something better about me than anyone else.
[58:14] Yeah.
[58:15] For the non-parental adults that care, was it two or more?
[58:19] Yeah, two, yeah, yeah.
[58:20] Can that take the form of teachers?
[58:22] Definitely.
[58:23] So my PhD is on this.
[58:24] My PhD is how to build the capacity of educators to identify and support kids with emotional difficulties.
[58:31] In six months, I delivered 45 sessions to primary schools.
[58:34] And the reason I did that is because my bit's the easy bit, knowing where the skill gap is, what's the cause.
[58:40] The hardest bit in all of this is trust.
[58:43] And teachers build trust, especially with the most vulnerable kids better than any.
[58:47] That's why they are the most important profession in our community.
[58:50] They will spend more time with kids often than their parents will.
[58:53] In a day, they'll spend more time with the most worrying kid I will spend with in a year.
[58:57] Yeah.
[58:58] So they spend hours and hours and the best thing that they do is actually show kids that they're unconditionally valued in that community.
[59:04] They take a genuine interest in and they tap them on the shoulder on the playground and say, hi, I care about you.
[59:09] And the kid that's really struggling, the tiniest thing they need to hear about is when they're in trouble.
[59:14] What those kids need more than anything is regardless of what you've done, I'm here and you matter to me.
[59:20] And the best teachers I've ever met are the ones that prioritize that over everything else.
[59:25] And kids who do not feel safe and valued will not get anywhere near learning anything.
[59:30] And educators taught me that.
[59:31] Awesome.
[59:33] you said before how it's like this privilege that you have to be able to catch kids, catch kids before they turn into these violent men.
[59:45] But you had this really troubled childhood and you had a tough childhood.
[59:48] Was there someone who like caught you?
[59:50] Yeah, there's a few things that were for me.
[59:52] Like when I got kicked out of school, I didn't, I was too afraid to tell my mum.
[59:58] She was like, you know, she's amazing.
[1:00:00] She's like a feminist and worked all these jobs and all this stuff, but she's very strict.
[1:00:05] And she only found out because I was actually catching a different bus one day.
[1:00:09] And she's like, what's that about?
[1:00:11] And I was like, whoops.
[1:00:13] How long were you gone before she found out?
[1:00:15] A while.
[1:00:16] So I got kicked out in year 11 in term three.
[1:00:18] And my dad actually was part of my life then.
[1:00:22] And I kind of, you know, said to him, hey, like, and he went around with me to all these schools and was able to be the parent.
[1:00:29] And all of them were like,
[1:00:32] Yeah, cool.
[1:00:32] Well, we've got a spot.
[1:00:34] We just got to do some background stuff.
[1:00:36] We'll chat to you.
[1:00:37] And I reckon six or seven schools called up and said, actually, we don't have a spot because they spoke to my old school.
[1:00:43] I went to the final one before I was going to have to go to TAFE and sat down with this man who was an authority figure.
[1:00:50] We had this conversation about, yeah, we need a new school and all this stuff.
[1:00:54] And I just connected with this guy and he's like, cool, at the end of it wrapping up.
[1:00:59] And he's like, you know, well, we've got to do some paperwork and stuff.
[1:01:03] And we were like, we've heard that seven times and then there's no spot.
[1:01:07] He's like, no, no, there's a spot.
[1:01:09] You're starting here in term four.
[1:01:11] And I went there and it was really funny because I still was against authority figures and all this stuff.
[1:01:15] And they were just like...
[1:01:17] Yeah, you come to class, this is when stuff's due.
[1:01:19] If you don't hand it in, you just get a zero.
[1:01:21] We're not going to ride you about it.
[1:01:23] And I had no one to fight.
[1:01:25] Like I had no authority figures to fight.
[1:01:27] I still had lots of people to physically fight and still got into lots of physical fights.
[1:01:30] But I had no authority figure to fight.
[1:01:32] That was pushing you, pushing back against you.
[1:01:34] Yeah, that was pushing me.
[1:01:36] But it's an interesting story.
[1:01:37] I've been banging on so much about this, but it's, I don't know if you guys have something that you think that's what I aim for in terms of who you are.
[1:01:47] And we, you know, probably all of us have that quite subconsciously, but I think it's an important thing for us to reflect on, but also to role model for the kids in our lives.
[1:01:56] And you'll have an opportunity as well, mate, to influence people, even though you don't have kids because, you know,
[1:02:02] people will be watching you and there'll be lots of little kids that look up to you that interact with you and yeah my story for that is that you know my neither of my parents finished high school um and then you know my two brothers are actually way smarter than me but I have a different thing to them um
[1:02:20] But I still remember the day that I got the letter to say that I got into med school and it came.
[1:02:25] And I remember like just wanting to show my mum, my girlfriend at the time was with me and my brothers and all that stuff.
[1:02:30] And I got the letter and I just like buzzed past all of them and showed it to my mum because I knew how much it would mean to her.
[1:02:37] And she's like really proud.
[1:02:39] But from that, literally that day, she told everyone in the community I was a doctor.
[1:02:43] Yeah.
[1:02:45] From the day I got the letter, hadn't done the first day.
[1:02:48] So I was a doctor, and I have to keep correcting people and being like, no, she hasn't even started school yet.
[1:02:54] But you know, she was so proud.
[1:02:58] So that continued.
[1:02:58] First year into med school, I got a call from her and she's like, I've just found out I've got a brain tumour.
[1:03:05] I've got 18 months to live.
[1:03:07] And, you know, I was devastated, of course.
[1:03:09] Sorry.
[1:03:10] So your mum?
[1:03:10] Yeah, my mum found out she had, you know, early 50s that she had a terminal brain tumour.
[1:03:16] And so she...
[1:03:19] She was like still telling all this story and becoming quite confused.
[1:03:23] So she'd tell people like, he's a doctor and all this stuff.
[1:03:26] And I was like halfway through med school.
[1:03:28] She somehow survived right until the end of med school.
[1:03:31] And towards the end of med school, I got a phone call like in the morning from my brother saying the doctors have said you need to come now.
[1:03:41] Like, you know, I was interstate.
[1:03:42] And so...
[1:03:44] I was like, yeah, cool, but I couldn't get anyone to cover my shift.
[1:03:49] And so I had to finish my shift.
[1:03:51] Someone sped me to the airport.
[1:03:54] Told my older brother, I was like, I'm about to get on the plane.
[1:03:57] And so I was like, sweet, I got on the plane.
[1:03:59] I landed, and it's like a 45-minute drive to the hospital.
[1:04:03] And my mum's sisters had come over from Ireland to be with her for that last piece.
[1:04:07] And when I landed, I called my brother, and I was like, I'm here.
[1:04:11] I'll be there in 45 minutes.
[1:04:13] And he's like, yeah, sweet.
[1:04:15] And I knew she'd died while I was on the plane.
[1:04:18] That's the way he answered.
[1:04:18] He didn't tell me.
[1:04:20] And so I got there.
[1:04:22] And, you know, it's an awful experience.
[1:04:25] But my aunt said the last thing I said to her was, because they knew I wasn't going to make it, was, you must be so proud of him because he's going to be a doctor.
[1:04:41] And my mum was like, I'm so proud of him because he's a good person.
[1:04:46] And I like, I put effort into that every single day and fail at it almost every single day.
[1:04:52] Yeah.
[1:04:54] But those are the North Stars we should have for ourselves and our kids.
[1:04:58] But we do.
[1:04:59] It's like money or physicality or being dominant.
[1:05:03] And we just, you know, you guys do a beautiful thing in that space of just being vulnerable.
[1:05:07] And how do we tell those stories and be genuinely vulnerable and like...
[1:05:13] lift kids into that direction and guide them there and say it's okay to fail, it's okay to cry.
[1:05:19] You know, it's okay to have these big emotions, especially boys.
[1:05:24] You know, it's like, yeah, it's such an important part.
[1:05:28] And I think that, you know, what I do in clinic is get the privilege to meet these kids, but I'm probably selfishly looking for myself as a kid.
[1:05:35] I will never...
[1:05:37] Yeah, I want to help my mum now, but I meet mums like that all the time.
[1:05:40] And, you know, I've got actual skills to help with that stuff now.
[1:05:44] And, like, this is what it's all about.
[1:05:47] It's all about why is this little boy struggling with that?
[1:05:51] How do we help him with that and guide him to better?
[1:05:53] How do we role model in society, not just action heroes and not just athletic people,
[1:05:59] But men that are kind, men that are sensitive, men that can be vulnerable, men that value people different to them, that are curious about, you know, different aspects of culture and, you know, things that people are into.
[1:06:12] And that's, yeah.
[1:06:13] And I hope that I never sound like I'm really good at it.
[1:06:18] I stuff it up all the time, but I try really hard at it.
[1:06:22] I try really hard at that for myself.
[1:06:25] But I also know that my kids are watching me and they'll watch what I do more than they'll listen to what I say.
[1:06:30] And so that's, you know, that's what I think is really important.
[1:06:34] I think a lot of us like talk to kids about like treat people really well.
[1:06:39] And then we get in a car and we go this, oh, so I'll just cut me off.
[1:06:42] And we get aggressive and honk at them and then cut them off and all that stuff.
[1:06:45] And they don't hear treat people well.
[1:06:48] They watch and say, no, you're dominant.
[1:06:52] You're aggressive.
[1:06:54] That's what, you know, you're on the footy field and you hurt people.
[1:06:57] That's what we praise.
[1:06:58] And so all of us have got to work on that, but especially men that have privileged voices.
[1:07:03] Billy, just so special to chat to you again.
[1:07:06] It's such a privilege to listen to you talk about a topic that you know so much about and a topic that you're so passionate about.
[1:07:11] Your mum would have been so incredibly proud, not just because you're a doctor, because you are such a great person.
[1:07:15] Oh, thanks.
[1:07:17] Thanks so much for joining us.
[1:07:18] Thanks, guys.
[1:07:19] It's lovely to be back.
[1:07:20] Thanks, Billy.

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