# Danielle Laidley PART 2 - Her Public Outing

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 30 Mar 2025, 48 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/m80jk3bgix3pnngxlcy2ypjq.mp3

This is PART TWO of our chat with footballer, coach and uniter of people, Danielle Laidley. We HIGHLY recommend you go back and listen to part one if you haven’t heard it (linked below). In this episode, Danielle recounts how it felt to be publicly outed, her own voice removed as the media crafted their own narrative about her identity. A story of courage, resilience and love, Danielle vulnerably shares with Hugh, Ryan and Josh how she united her two worlds, and found the strength to live authentically for herself, and become a role model for others. To watch the entire interview with Danielle on YouTube, click here - https://bit.ly/3FJ8Lw2 📖 Things to read • Don’t Look Away - Danielle Laidley - https://bit.ly/3XrTkyo 📺 Things to watch • Revealed - Danielle Laidley: Two Tribes - https://bit.ly/3R8X6ct ☎ If you need support after listening to this episode, these are a few great places to start: • QLife - 1800 184 527 • Rainbow Door - 1800 729 367 The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] This episode with Danielle Ladeley has been split into two parts.
[0:03] Both parts are available now and you're currently listening to part two.
[0:07] If you haven't heard part one of this conversation, scroll down on your podcast app and you'll see it there.
[0:12] It's titled Danielle Ladeley, part one, her private struggle.
[0:16] This episode features a conversation that references gender dysphoria, addiction and suicide attempts.
[0:21] If these are topics you don't think you can engage with right now, we recommend skipping for the moment, but please do come back when you feel ready.
[0:32] We've sort of alluded to it and I hope you don't mind us asking the specifics, but I think for the people listening, it would be helpful to know exactly what this public outing was and how it happened.
[0:48] Yeah, so through this bad period, I remember I said getting introduced to cocaine at 48 years of age because I was in a relationship.
[1:02] and the drug use was elevating at that point in time.
[1:07] And I'd been on and off with this person for five or six years, and the being off was being unsure of who I was.
[1:21] The very first date that we went on, I told her,
[1:25] Because I thought if I ever get back into a relationship, that other person needs to know.
[1:32] Yeah.
[1:32] So I told her.
[1:33] And she was supportive to a point.
[1:39] It was sort of mid-2018.
[1:41] I'd just been to America with my youngest daughter and I came back and thought, no, I'm
[1:49] I need to break this circuit of what's happening with the gender dysphoria, which still at that point I hadn't sought medical advice or intervention.
[2:01] And I knew if I was going to explore that, that the relationship couldn't go on.
[2:11] So we split up.
[2:12] And then I went, that's when I went really badly downhill.
[2:17] back of 2018, 2019.
[2:20] And then I called her.
[2:23] I was reaching out for help.
[2:27] It was a cry for help.
[2:30] And anyway, we end up buying a property together.
[2:36] She was seeing someone.
[2:38] Then she told me that she wasn't seeing him anymore.
[2:41] And I'm thinking that we'll,
[2:45] there's a chance that we might rekindle what would have happened, which, you know, looking back now with clear eyes, it was never going to be the case.
[2:53] Anyway, we got into a property dispute through a lot of texting and emails.
[3:01] And so she went to the police, they put an intervention order on me, which I accepted.
[3:07] And then as soon as she moved into the apartment, she told me to get out of her life.
[3:13] She never wanted to see me again.
[3:14] And I found out that she was still seeing this other person.
[3:19] And that's from my point of view, and I'm sure she has her point of view.
[3:22] So I was going that bad.
[3:26] that I thought, right, I'm going there.
[3:30] And I went to the apartment and, like, I was an emotional wreck.
[3:37] And I rang the police and said, I've got a breaking intervention.
[3:42] Why do you need to come and arrest me?
[3:47] And within two minutes, they came and arrested me.
[3:52] So around to – this was on a Saturday night around the St Kilda police station –
[3:56] Um, and I've walked in, I'm handcuffed.
[4:01] I'm not slept for probably 10 days.
[4:03] Um, I'm at a very low ebb in my life.
[4:09] Um, walked into St Koola Police Station, there's probably 12 to 14 police officers just sort of in a semicircle.
[4:19] plain clothes and uniform, just laughing at me.
[4:24] Um, and I felt like an animal in the zoo.
[4:28] Um,
[4:30] So then they were coming in and out and there was a lot of laughing and carrying on and, you know, they had to search me, which they then didn't do a very good job because I had a little satchel in my bra, which I didn't even know was there, and they didn't search me properly and didn't find it.
[4:52] So then when I didn't get bail and went...
[4:57] to the custody center.
[4:58] I got searched again properly and then got charged with bringing a substance into a prison because they didn't do their job.
[5:07] And so anyway, going back to the police station, I'm sitting there, I'm an absolute emotional wreck.
[5:13] I've rung them as a cry for help.
[5:17] And what they didn't see was a person in distress.
[5:22] Yeah.
[5:22] A person who was at their most vulnerable and one of the lowest points of their life.
[5:29] And a police officer thought it would be a good idea to take a photo of me getting interviewed.
[5:36] Yeah.
[5:37] which he did do that.
[5:38] And while this was happening, they asked me for my phone.
[5:43] They said, if you give us your phone and give us your PIN, we'll give you your phone back by the end of the night.
[5:50] If you don't and we have to open the phone ourselves, you probably won't get it back.
[5:54] So I've never been in any trouble with the police at all in my life.
[6:00] So I gave them the PIN number.
[6:02] So while I'm getting interviewed...
[6:04] they're going through my phone taking photos of my photos.
[6:09] Um, and those photos were of a visual, um, diary of my transition.
[6:18] So quite intimate photos.
[6:20] Wow.
[6:20] So the photo that they took in the interview room and off my phone, um, were distributed on a WhatsApp group.
[6:29] Um, and then within hours, um,
[6:34] Yeah, they're on the front page of the paper on Sunday morning.
[6:38] So we didn't apply for bail, so I got then taken to the custody centre.
[6:44] And so then you get this profile, police profile, and you get what's called a CRN, which is criminal record number.
[6:55] And you get put up, your profile gets put up onto a LEAP system.
[7:00] So any police officer in any station around the state can go into this LEAP system and have a look at what you're charged with or charged with breaking intermission order, charged with bringing drugs into a prison, whatever it might have been.
[7:20] So then they've taken a photo of...
[7:23] Someone in Victoria has taken a photo of my profile photo in that LEAP system.
[7:30] And then that also became public.
[7:33] It's horrific.
[7:34] So it was, yeah, it was horrific.
[7:36] And so I'm still in custody.
[7:39] And then I go to the Melbourne Assessment Prison, which I'd worked in.
[7:46] for years for the Department of Justice doing their leadership and management program.
[7:52] So that was embarrassing for a start.
[7:56] So then we got given a magistrate who apparently loved media attention.
[8:02] So my lawyer said, no, we're not going to – you're going to have to stay in jail.
[8:08] So I stayed for nine days.
[8:11] And I was put into the psych ward at the Melbourne Assessment Prison because I had attempted suicide only two weeks before.
[8:22] So the records were there.
[8:23] So I was in this psych ward.
[8:26] Um, and I remember when the door closed, just breaking down thinking this is right now the worst time in my life.
[8:36] Like what's, what's happened?
[8:38] Like, so you've got no clothes, no clothes on.
[8:42] You just have like a.
[8:44] Smock with some velcro at the top with two pieces of material because they don't want you to set itself up No pillow you have a blanket which you can't bend No toilet paper
[9:00] So I, for the first six or seven days, I was, slept for 18 hours a day and cried for the other six.
[9:09] And I didn't know, but, you know, talking on the phone to my son, he just said, Dad, it's a firestorm out here.
[9:20] You know, so... And that was in regards to the media.
[9:23] Yeah.
[9:23] Yeah.
[9:24] Yeah.
[9:24] And the narrative was unkind, you know, using the word stalker.
[9:32] And it was a two-way conversation.
[9:34] But, you know...
[9:36] I should have been better than that.
[9:39] And I only could talk about my side of, you know, a dispute.
[9:43] You know, I should have been better than that.
[9:45] But, you know, I was unwell at that point in time.
[9:51] And then, you know, about, you know, being a cross-dresser and cross-dressing is a fetish.
[9:59] And gender dysphoria is a medical condition, two completely different things.
[10:04] I don't like being labelled that.
[10:07] So the narrative was really unkind through that period, and I couldn't do or say anything.
[10:13] And then the police stuff was going on, and then there was criminal charges to the police who all got off.
[10:20] through that period of time.
[10:21] And then there was the civil case.
[10:23] So I couldn't do or say anything.
[10:27] And so that's why I wrote the book and then the documentary that we made because I wanted to reclaim my narrative, my story.
[10:36] Yeah.
[10:36] Yep.
[10:38] It was interesting, there was 50 people or something like that charged with conduct unbecoming and, oh, that was another charge, I forget what it was.
[10:52] Anyway, so some of them got just raps over the knuckles and then three got charged.
[11:02] And to their lawyer's credit, they played the system out really well and they got a not guilty verdict about sharing the photos and what was private stuff and what was police stuff.
[11:18] And they used case law dating back to the 1890s to get off.
[11:24] And even the third case just got thrown out because...
[11:28] they were kind of come up with the same result anyway.
[11:31] So since then, the legislation to do with what's police information, what's private information, the legislation has been changed through my case, which I'm pretty pleased about.
[11:46] And I've now worked with Victoria Police to develop a training package for any new police officers going through the academy.
[11:56] Oh, that's great.
[11:57] Great.
[11:58] Gosh, amazing.
[12:01] Do you mind, this is a bit of a gear shift to something we were talking about before, do you mind me asking why you used the word embarrassing when you were talking about suicide attempts?
[12:12] Embarrassing in a way that I thought that that would not happen to me.
[12:23] But what I have learnt is...
[12:26] that it can happen to anyone.
[12:30] And that's the embarrassing part.
[12:35] And that was initially, not so much now, because I'm far more educated on it.
[12:43] You know, I have to say, a few times in my life, I sort of went there through depression and stuff like that.
[12:54] But I always used to wonder...
[12:56] what it would be like when you plan, you prepare and you get to that point, um, how would you feel, you know?
[13:12] And then that, that would scare me.
[13:14] And then it was like back.
[13:17] All back from that.
[13:18] Yeah.
[13:18] You know, um, um,
[13:22] Yeah, but having been there, I thought the world would be better off without me.
[13:31] And that, again, this is through active addiction.
[13:35] This is when gender dysphoria is, and this is just before being diagnosed.
[13:42] Mm-hmm.
[13:43] And I was only, I was seeing my counsellor, um, and I can remember vividly, used to go there on Tuesday night at four o'clock after work and they were really worried about me and I looked like and felt like death warmed up, like I was just, um, full of drugs, um, all this stuff going on, um.
[14:12] completely locked out the whole world and even my kids at this point in time.
[14:18] And it just came out.
[14:20] And I said, I think I've gender dysphoria.
[14:23] I think I'm transgender.
[14:27] And the first thing she said to me was, and this is what care and empathy is about, is
[14:35] She said to me, what would you like me to call you?
[14:41] Wow.
[14:41] At this point in time.
[14:44] And I said, you know what?
[14:47] Thank you for asking, but I reckon we've got this big pile of shit to work through before we even get to it.
[14:53] And we both had a laugh.
[14:55] But then it was sort of the weight lifted off.
[14:58] Beautiful response.
[14:59] That was the first time I ever told anyone.
[15:01] So that was late 2019.
[15:02] 2019.
[15:06] Yeah.
[15:06] Oh, so you're in your 50s by then when that happens.
[15:10] Wow.
[15:11] Yeah.
[15:12] So then it was like, okay, gender psychs, endocrinologists, tests, you know, all this stuff.
[15:20] And your endocrinologist, Ada, I think it is, who had this wonderful, I think you went for half an hour appointment but stayed for four hours.
[15:29] Yeah, it was.
[15:29] Yeah, that was, again, and that was the first one.
[15:34] And I was a mess.
[15:37] The day she told me, she said, you know, looked at everything, read, researched, could see you.
[15:43] Yeah.
[15:45] You know, you do have and have always had gender dysphoria.
[15:50] So because when you go through that, you go through your whole life.
[15:53] So then when Ada said that, that was just the affirmation that I needed.
[15:59] Then it was like, okay, you're not crazy.
[16:02] You're not mentally ill.
[16:05] you've known this your whole life.
[16:07] Yeah.
[16:08] Was it a relief?
[16:09] Yeah, huge.
[16:10] Huge.
[16:10] I remember walking up the road, skipping and jumping and stuff like that.
[16:17] But she did say, she said to me, well, what are you going to do?
[16:20] And I said, well, I can't live like this.
[16:24] So I want to be here.
[16:28] But the only way I can be here is if I'm myself.
[16:33] because I can't live this life that I'm, that are just in a space of a few years, just spiralled out of absolute control.
[16:46] And on myself, but also those, those around me.
[16:50] So this is, this all happened in late 2019.
[16:52] And then, you know, into 2020 was when it all,
[17:00] went pear shaped.
[17:03] I'm interested to know, has people from within the AFL, have some surprised you with their support and have others disappointed you in, in their silence?
[17:16] Um, I, I can honestly say that everyone has been wonderful.
[17:24] That's so great.
[17:26] Incredible.
[17:27] Like.
[17:29] You live in that fear, shame and embarrassment and then, you know, when it became public, they're the first to arrive on the scene.
[17:39] Wow.
[17:40] How did that feel?
[17:41] Oh, incredible.
[17:43] And I'm talking from Gil McLaughlin, who was the CEO at the time, Brian Walsh to Jay Allen, you know, at the AFL, to Steve Hocking, who was at the AFL at that point in time, to my own football club
[18:00] to the players that I played with and coached.
[18:03] It's been amazing, yeah.
[18:09] It must have been, I can't imagine what it must have felt like to be carrying this for 35 years when you were saying before how the absolute horror and fear in your mind of those two worlds crossing, for it to happen and then...
[18:31] be embraced by the AFL community, that must just feel, that's got to be one of the best feelings of your life.
[18:41] Yeah, it was.
[18:44] Absolutely.
[18:46] And what's interesting now, and I've spoken about this with Anthony Stephens and Wayne Swass, but why didn't I say anything back then?
[18:58] In the 90s at North Melbourne, it wasn't,
[19:01] a time or place to do that.
[19:05] You survived on sort of attacking your teammates in a fun, jovial, you know, way.
[19:13] We just didn't have those conversations, deep conversations back then.
[19:21] I don't think anyone did.
[19:22] No.
[19:23] Um, but as a society and, um, we've come a long way and I think, um,
[19:31] The younger generation today are really leading the way in being authentic, being raw, being themselves, not really caring what people think about them, as long as you're a good person.
[19:48] And I think that's huge.
[19:51] And we should water that, if you like.
[19:55] Because what it's doing is invariably saving people's lives.
[20:02] And then you don't have car crashes like Danielle Lydley.
[20:09] Just, I mean, on that, I wonder, do you ever look at young people,
[20:15] transgender kids who have not only recognised what's going on, but have the support to become their true self at a young age.
[20:29] Is there any like envy?
[20:33] Good question.
[20:33] Very good question.
[20:36] No, if I sit, so I'll answer this in two ways.
[20:42] The first part is, like I sit here today and I always talk about phase one of my life and now phase two, if you like.
[20:53] Now that I'm sitting here and going through what I've gone through, would I change my life?
[21:00] No.
[21:00] Absolutely.
[21:02] The only thing I change is the stuff that, the mistakes I made, which have affected my children.
[21:08] And the other part with young, I won't say just transgender people, I'll say gender diverse youth.
[21:17] You know, there's a lot of people and a lot of fake news about, you know, this is a fad, this is whatever.
[21:24] It's been around forever.
[21:28] And.
[21:30] It's now on the table where we can actually talk about it, where it's never been before.
[21:35] If you look at the L, the G and the B in the rainbow community, that's been going on for a long time.
[21:43] And those people in that movement, if you like, is so far advanced.
[21:50] And I think the T's fallen off the table.
[21:53] over the years and now it's back on the table and we're having these conversations.
[21:59] And what there is now is resources, education for these young people.
[22:05] You know, people go, well, and I'll use the gender clinic at the Royal Melbourne Hospital, for instance, or the Minash Gender Clinic that have been around since, I think, the early 70s.
[22:18] So for a lot of years...
[22:22] The lines in the graph, if you like, from both those two clinics were very flat line until probably in the early 90s where it's just gone through the roof.
[22:35] And people say, oh, look, look at all these people come out.
[22:38] It's just a fad.
[22:40] No.
[22:42] people now more secure to come out and talk about it as adults or young children, um, are more open to talk about it with their parents and educate their parents.
[22:57] My concern, and I think this is where I sit, when those lines were just flat lining through the seventies, eighties, you know, and even perhaps earlier before the spike,
[23:08] So all those people have still been here, but they've just not gone to use these facilities.
[23:17] They're the biggest worry.
[23:18] They're people like me that have had all sorts of issues in life.
[23:24] So the rhetoric around, you know, transgender youth and, you know, going to school, one gender and coming back the other, come on, please.
[23:33] There's a lot.
[23:37] involve parents, the person themselves, GPs, gender psychs, the endocrinologist, the big team, Supreme Court, like it's massive.
[23:52] You know, and it's not, it's not taken lightly and nor, nor should it be.
[23:57] So there's two, yeah, there's two parts to that.
[24:00] But I, I,
[24:02] people say to me about, oh, you know, resilience or courage for me.
[24:07] But then I look at these young kids and I do have an example of one transgender,
[24:16] I won't say child, youth, right now, probably only 18, but going back quite a few years ago, left primary school as one gender and came back into high school as another and stood up in front of the whole school and said, this is me.
[24:36] Wow.
[24:37] Now that's courage, right?
[24:39] Like I'm not even the same stratosphere as that, you know,
[24:46] Oh, how does it feel to you to know that you're a part, like you're a part of that change?
[24:53] How does that feel?
[24:54] Um, I remember when all this public stuff came out, you know, and I'm wrestling to be who I am and dealing with police, family, whole range of things, you know, and you have these conversations.
[25:10] Well, how are we going to use this?
[25:13] What are you going to do?
[25:14] Um,
[25:17] And I was thinking, oh, you know, I'm a bit naive, but I'd really like just to live my life now, you know, and obviously that didn't happen.
[25:32] And I remember reading this article about a young transgender woman, Andrea Pellick.
[25:41] So she was the...
[25:44] androgynous model from Broadmeadows who got whipped up by the world.
[25:48] So she's transitioned and she was going through the same thing saying, I just want to live my life.
[25:56] And then she got to the age, I think it was 28 or something, when she thought, no, I need to break down barriers for the next generation and things that I went through.
[26:09] And when I read that, I thought, yeah, that's me.
[26:12] So I've lived my life as me.
[26:16] I don't get up on my soapbox and I hope that I'm a part of this by just, you know, being me and being lucky enough to have platforms like this.
[26:30] Yeah.
[26:31] where we can talk about these things and talk about my story.
[26:34] And, yeah, it is a passion to break down as many barriers that I can for the next generation and the following generation because I think I'm in a pretty good...
[26:50] space if you like, that I've walked on both sides of the tracks and I've got a really good understanding of what minority groups now, you know, go through.
[27:03] Can I ask you about Donna?
[27:04] She's sitting here today with us and you met back in primary school when you were in grade one.
[27:11] And there were so many special parts of the documentary, which we'll put a link to in the show notes.
[27:17] One of my favorite moments was when you reached out to her to tell her about Danielle basically.
[27:23] And she said, yeah, whatever, but I just want to know that you're okay.
[27:25] Are you fine?
[27:26] I don't really, that's whatever, that's good.
[27:30] And then I think she went on to say that she's just always loved you, always for you, and all this stuff is irrelevant.
[27:39] She just loves you, the person.
[27:42] That type of love and that partnership and that support, I'd love to hear, I mean, yeah, I'd love to hear you talk about Donna.
[27:51] Donna.
[27:52] Yeah.
[27:53] The good's bad.
[27:54] But even different.
[27:55] No, start with the good.
[27:56] No, no, no, no.
[27:58] No, it's all good.
[28:01] I think the thing that got me, apart from a lot of things, was Donna often says, you know, I love this person.
[28:13] For some people that's hard to comprehend.
[28:16] And maybe because it's – we did meet in grade one –
[28:21] We were boyfriend and girlfriend at times through primary school and at high school.
[28:25] Our two brothers were best friends going through school.
[28:29] You know, we had this connection there that's been there forever.
[28:35] And I got married early and had kids and so did Donna.
[28:39] Our two worlds were, you know, ways apart.
[28:42] And then we reconnected.
[28:47] Oh, I don't know, 2014, 2015.
[28:50] So it wasn't long after I got the villa in Bali and I thought, because my Facebook and socials were very private.
[28:58] And I thought, well, I've got this villa, I'm going to rent it out when I'm not there.
[29:01] So I opened my Facebook and then we reconnected, started there.
[29:05] And then it started to become long late night chats over a long period of time.
[29:08] And she'd come to Melbourne, have lunch, that sort of stuff.
[29:13] And when I was going through that bad period of time, you know, we were talking all the time.
[29:22] But then I would just disappear, you know, for days on end.
[29:26] No, nothing.
[29:29] And then it would be text, welfare check, and then I'd think, oh, okay.
[29:37] But she knew.
[29:40] Me, she understood me.
[29:41] I tried to give...
[29:45] some clues and hints.
[29:48] So, like, I'd always send a little emojis like high-heeled shoes or a dress or a thing like that, and she just went straight over her head.
[29:57] I thought she would get it because I don't know if you know this, but Donna was the ducks of our school.
[30:01] All right.
[30:02] Pretty smart, and I thought she might have got it, but she didn't.
[30:07] Wasn't looking for it.
[30:08] No, no.
[30:11] And then, you know, she does tell another story that –
[30:15] apart from our lunches in Melbourne and being on the phone all the time, and we organised to meet up in Bali.
[30:24] So this is like 2008.
[30:27] 17, 18, I can't quite remember.
[30:29] Anyway, I'm in the, I'm bad.
[30:34] Like, I'm really bad.
[30:37] And when you're like that in Bali, that's also on another level.
[30:43] In what way?
[30:44] You can very end up, easily end up in jail.
[30:47] Oh, gotcha.
[30:48] For using drugs in Bali.
[30:49] Yeah.
[30:50] Mm-hmm.
[30:50] Yeah.
[30:53] And I remember we'd organised to catch up.
[30:56] So it was 10 o'clock in the morning.
[30:57] I walk in with a plastic bag with probably a dozen Jack Daniels and Coke in.
[31:03] I hadn't slept for maybe a week.
[31:06] Wow.
[31:08] I'm just sitting on the chair and like sort of coming in and out of consciousness.
[31:13] But we really reconnected and we were supposed to catch up again, but then I disappeared again.
[31:21] but she was always there, there, the care, the love, the empathy.
[31:25] I could really tell that.
[31:28] We eventually left and I'd drunk all the...
[31:34] alcohol and we jumped on my bike, which I shouldn't have jumped on, and I dropped off the restaurant and she walked into her girlfriends who were there waiting for her and just started crying, like really crying, saying, you know, I'll never ever see that person again.
[31:54] Yeah.
[31:56] So the flip side of that is it was true because that was the last time she saw phase one.
[32:05] Wow.
[32:06] Yeah.
[32:06] So her care and empathy for me and helping me to be the best person.
[32:14] that I can, I think I bring out the best in Donna as well.
[32:19] And we get along like a house on fire.
[32:22] You know, it's, we've worked really hard to carve out a great life for us and hopefully our kids are moving forward.
[32:32] You know, but it's something that we still need to work on every day.
[32:37] You know, we both have our quirks and that's what I love about it.
[32:42] Did your parents ever find anything or see anything or when you were young that they questioned or that you felt panicked about that they had seen?
[32:55] I've asked mum this.
[32:56] Dad passed 20 years ago and she said no.
[33:02] No.
[33:03] No.
[33:04] How's your relationship with your mum?
[33:05] How was your mum with... That's got to be a very confronting and complicated conversation.
[33:12] Yeah, when I was going through that bad stage, before it all blew up, Mum and I used to fight on the phone.
[33:20] Because I wouldn't, didn't want to speak to her, didn't want anything to do with her, like I did a lot of people.
[33:26] Yeah.
[33:27] And kept saying, you know, I've got a lot of stuff going on over here, blah, blah, blah.
[33:31] She goes, well, tell me.
[33:32] And then we'd end up yelling and screaming and one of us would hang up.
[33:38] So one night I text her and said, okay, I'm going to tell you, I've been diagnosed with gender dysphoria.
[33:47] If you don't know what it is, look it up.
[33:50] If you still want to talk to me after that, I'm here.
[33:55] I sort of waited and waited, thinking what's going to happen.
[34:00] What a wait.
[34:01] And I think she texted me back maybe six or seven hours later and said, I'm so sorry that you've had to go through this by yourself.
[34:09] Why didn't you tell me?
[34:12] Because with my mum, my relationship with my mum was –
[34:18] pretty tumultuous.
[34:20] You know, why did she leave my dad?
[34:22] Why did she move to Sydney?
[34:24] You know, is it because she didn't like myself or my brother or, you know, you sort of start to wonder why?
[34:32] And, you know, she was very good in, you know, taking me to footy and giving me what I needed to develop and that sort of stuff.
[34:43] But there was just this...
[34:45] something there.
[34:48] And since I received that text, you know, we've spoken about my childhood, all those things and
[35:00] Now we have this great relationship.
[35:03] Unfortunately, obviously she's still with us, which is great, but she has the onset of dementia.
[35:11] Okay.
[35:12] But she can't remember what happened five seconds ago, but she can remember what happened 50 years ago.
[35:18] And I have a great relationship with her now.
[35:21] I just wish there was a lot more down the track, but unfortunately we don't know that.
[35:31] I have a relationship now with him, which is just absolutely brilliant.
[35:37] Wow.
[35:38] You know, because my mum will still revert to phase one name occasionally and my pop, he'll say, it's not that, it's Danny, Danny, Danny.
[35:49] Mum will go, oh, yeah, okay, sorry, sorry, sorry, I didn't mean to do that.
[35:55] You know, so, and that's why one of the reasons why we moved back to Perth was...
[36:00] or Donna's dad and my parents because they're that age now and I've been away long enough and been able to fulfil some dreams.
[36:14] Now I feel it's time to give back to them.
[36:16] So my relationship with my parents, unfortunately my dad did pass many years ago, is in a good space.
[36:24] Wonderful.
[36:25] Wonderful.
[36:27] I would just love to hear you speak to anyone out there who's feeling trapped right now, whether it's through identity or addiction or mental health.
[36:35] If you have anything, what would you love them to hear?
[36:37] Hugh, I think what I've learned in this life is we can't do it ourselves.
[36:47] You need to communicate how you're feeling yourself,
[36:52] to be able to be your best and who you want to be in this life.
[36:58] And I think that's incredibly important.
[37:01] And don't be ashamed.
[37:03] Don't be embarrassed.
[37:04] You know, I thought my problems were bad.
[37:09] And you get so insular in those, in your own problems.
[37:13] But the person sitting next to you or the person around the corner is probably going through some sane stuff as you.
[37:20] You know, we're not...
[37:22] We're not perfect.
[37:24] We are imperfect.
[37:27] And that I think is also the beauty of the human race, that we come with all these things.
[37:36] So, and you can work on them and you can become a better rounded person wherever you come from in life.
[37:45] And whether you come from a broken family or a great family life,
[37:49] So, you know, I would say find some people you trust, talk about it and work your way through to being the very best person that you can be.
[38:03] Be authentic because I can say from my experience of being authentic...
[38:12] And whatever that looks like, you know, for me and others, it's so rewarding.
[38:20] That's a beautiful point to end, I think.
[38:23] I feel like this is one of those conversations that you just put in the category of life saving.
[38:28] I think you'll save lives with your honest and very open reflections on your life.
[38:35] So thank you so much for joining us today.
[38:38] It's been an absolute pleasure.
[38:39] Oh, thank you to the three of you.
[38:41] It's, as I say, like I'm grateful and thankful to be able to come on here.
[38:47] So please keep doing what you're doing because, you know, we need this and not just from all walks of life and the different stories that you tell.
[38:57] It's helping the world be a better place.
[39:00] So thank you.
[39:12] What a legend.
[39:13] Yeah.
[39:15] Like, it's just rare that you meet people like that.
[39:19] It's so, yeah, it was just so, a really incredible experience to sit down for that long and chat with a woman like that.
[39:28] Like, incredible.
[39:29] Yeah.
[39:29] Yeah.
[39:30] How great was the energy of both the DLs?
[39:32] Oh, yeah.
[39:33] Donald Leckie, Daniel's partner, the two of them, they are good to be around.
[39:39] Oh, yeah.
[39:39] And Daniel says, like, you know, they're all about having fun and you can just imagine the fun they're having.
[39:45] Yeah, absolutely.
[39:46] They're great.
[39:48] I actually wanted to mention something which feels a little bit – there was so much to take away from the ep, but there was something that came up for me and it's been something I've thought about as we've recorded a few stories this year –
[40:02] As someone who just happened to be born in the body that I identify with as my gender and to have a sexuality that is, in inverted commas, the norm or at least the large majority in Australian Western culture.
[40:20] And I feel like to this point in my life, I hadn't quite really taken the time to think about how terrible an act is outing someone else.
[40:32] I obviously never do it.
[40:34] And I've obviously always thought that's just a nasty thing to do.
[40:38] And on its surface, without giving it any thought, I think it's inherently obvious that it's a terrible thing to do.
[40:44] but it used to be such a thing in media where you'd have like salacious sort of, it was like getting the scoop that that person is gay or whatever it happened to be.
[40:58] And it was like, we've got the story and our chance to leak it and get the headline.
[41:02] And it was like, that was fair game.
[41:07] And luckily it's not happening anywhere near as much anymore, but I'm sure there are still places that try and do it.
[41:12] But in any context, even if it's not leaking to the media, but just trying to like spread that story in social circles and that kind of stuff, it really, hearing Danielle speak...
[41:24] And some other people have spoken to.
[41:26] But in the case of Danielle, hearing the internal trauma that she went through for 48 years, feeling like she couldn't be herself in public and own her story, to spend your whole life working towards a moment where you can finally do it and then have that taken away from you.
[41:47] like your moment of announcing yourself to the world, you've done the work or you're doing the work required to be proud of the person you are.
[41:58] And we, we just heard for an incredible detail that how much,
[42:05] pain and had gone along in that journey and how much work Danielle needed to do due to the fact that society was not ready for her.
[42:15] I think that's the right way to say it.
[42:16] And I'm sorry if that didn't come out right.
[42:19] Um,
[42:20] For then, in her case, members of the police force to take it upon themselves to feel that they could do that, but it happens all the time, it's one of the nastiest things I can think of doing to someone, to steal that moment.
[42:33] Because it absolutely wasn't presented in a way that she would have planned or hoped for, and it wasn't the full story.
[42:40] It was a small part of the story.
[42:41] It was such an unkind version of the story.
[42:43] Yeah.
[42:44] And I just think about her being in a psych unit locked away.
[42:48] Oh.
[42:49] knowing that the world is making what they want of a few photos.
[42:56] It's so true, Josh.
[42:57] It is the nastiest thing to do to another human being.
[43:01] Yeah.
[43:02] And it reinforces the sort of power dynamic and the shame dynamic that,
[43:10] In her case, she spent 48 years trying to work through and it gets like smashed over the head with it again by other people.
[43:19] It's like it's just the worst.
[43:21] And it's always been inherently just obviously nasty, but I feel like it's a failure of my empathy to not really think about it properly to the point of what you're really doing to the person as well, as well as just being plain nasty.
[43:36] Yeah, but joke's on you because you have noticed it.
[43:40] And I think that's like, that is the exact, it's the perfect result really.
[43:45] From that conversation.
[43:46] That's why, that is why, it's one of the reasons why it's so, it's so good.
[43:51] Like having a conversation like that, we're just learning.
[43:54] We can't, we can't know everything.
[43:56] We can't feel everything and know what every perspective is like automatically and, yeah.
[44:00] Yeah, to speak to her and understand her perspective and hear her story.
[44:05] It's why we're doing this whole show, isn't it?
[44:08] Yeah.
[44:09] Yeah, and it's so true.
[44:11] It's well beyond a worst nightmare I could ever imagine.
[44:13] Ryan, you said at the top of this chat that at the start of this episode that we all know what it's like to have a secret.
[44:19] Hmm.
[44:20] And then a secret that big, imagining that secret coming out on someone else's terms, they tell part of the story, not the kindest version of it.
[44:28] We're not really there to defend it or explain it.
[44:31] I mean, it cost her the opportunity to sit down with her own kids and tell them who she really is, like in her own words.
[44:39] Probably one of the most important conversations of her life.
[44:42] Yeah.
[44:42] It was robbed from her.
[44:43] Yeah.
[44:44] It was taken away from her in a way that has made it impossible to get that opportunity back to this point, which is just so devastating.
[44:52] Well said, Josh.
[44:52] It's so true.
[44:53] Yeah.
[44:54] It was an honor to meet Danielle and to have my perspective on the world broadened even further.
[45:02] It was wonderful.
[45:04] Yeah.
[45:04] Ditto.
[45:05] Yeah.
[45:06] And thank you, huge thank you to Danielle because it can't be easy doing that.
[45:11] No.
[45:11] Sitting down and sharing that so generously for us to – Yeah.
[45:16] Getting us to that point of broadening our perspective.
[45:20] Yeah.
[45:22] Yeah, I think it's life-changing for so many people.
[45:24] Yep.
[45:25] Yep.
[45:26] All right.
[45:27] Good to see you guys.
[45:28] Yeah.
[45:28] Like I was.
[45:30] See you soon.
[45:30] See you soon.
[45:32] In a new office.
[45:34] Yeah.
[45:34] In a new studio.
[45:35] Without a painting.
[45:36] Without a painting.
[45:38] Well, without that painting.
[45:40] Yeah.
[45:40] Like I always say, no art allowed.
[45:42] Okay.
[45:45] That is a shelter.
[45:46] I think we've proven that that doesn't work.
[45:50] Helps no one.
[45:52] Let's just do away with it once and for all, finally.
[46:04] Q, it's Ryan.
[46:06] Wow.
[46:07] What an amazing woman she is.
[46:10] That was so, so great.
[46:13] And, uh, yeah, it's interesting, because I was actually just thinking to myself the other day, I was actually like, I was like, you know what?
[46:23] I actually haven't seen Danielle lately.
[46:26] Danielle lately?
[46:27] I haven't seen, yeah, I haven't seen...
[46:33] Yes, and also, I've been thinking about it, and maybe we should actually speak to that joke rider you've been talking about for these voicemails.
[46:42] Yeah, I just thought, like, why not, hey?
[46:45] Yeah, it could be really interesting.
[46:47] So let me know what you think.
[46:49] It's Ryan Shelton from the podcast.
[46:52] To call back, press 2-2 to reply message.
[46:56] Press 1 to reply.
[47:02] If you enjoyed this episode, there's a very good chance you'll love the Vulnerability Mail, our weekly newsletter to help you remain imperfect.
[47:10] Each week, we'll send you one vulnerable question inspired by the current episode to help you unpack your own imperfect life.
[47:16] Subscribe at www.theimperfects.com.au.
[47:20] The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh Van Kylenberg, Ryan Shelton and Josh Van Kylenberg.
[47:26] Our executive producer is Bridget North East, assistant producer of Bella North East.
[47:30] This episode is edited by George Martin with music from No Mono.
[47:34] The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
[47:41] The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 410.

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