# Dr Emily - Other People Matter

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 24 Sep 2023, 1 h 10 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/r9ig0kerjif1vty0blgcr2il.mp3

Dr Emily is back - and once again proving why she is increasingly becoming the most popular person on The Imperfects. This Emisode is all about a fundamental part of Positive Psychology… the beautiful idea that OTHER PEOPLE MATTER. Now, you’re probably thinking… of course other people matter, right? Seems pretty obvious. But here, Dr Emily explains what it is about ‘other people’, that matters so much, and how much it relates to our never-ending search for that elusive thing we call “happiness”. To learn more about positive psychology and Christopher Peterson's work, follow this link: https://bit.ly/3t7AvnP To learn more about the impact of physical touch to build trust and corporation and to read about the NBA basketball study mentioned in the episode, follow this link: https://bit.ly/48puJ0R To learn more about Eudimonic and hedonistic happiness, and Martin Seligman's work, follow this link: https://bit.ly/3PRs88w For Josh's recommendation, This Is Water, by David Foster Wallace, follow this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC7xzavzEKY&t=6s For book recommendation, 'The Happiness Trap' by Russ Harris, follow this link: https://bit.ly/3tbjkl0 For book recommendation, 'The Courage To Be Disliked', by Ichiro Kishimi, Fumitake Koga, follow this link: https://bit.ly/452d8cA For book recommendation, 'On Living', by Hospice Chaplain Kerry Egan, follow this link: https://bit.ly/3rz3tfE For book recommendation, 'Love 2.0' by Barbara Fredrickson, follow this link: https://bit.ly/48psM4B The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

## Transcript

[0:00] My name is Andy, and I film the videos at The Imperfects.
[0:04] I'm the son of English immigrants, and I am grateful to call Australia home.
[0:08] We at The Imperfects acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded, and extend our respects to their elders past and present.
[0:19] I am inspired by the strength and endurance of the world's oldest living culture, and we draw on and pay homage to their traditions of story when we share stories on our podcast.
[0:30] The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
[0:37] The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.
[0:46] hear a doctor yes her name is dr emily and she's a psychologist please welcome to the imperfects our very own psychologist this is this i'm it's exciting to have emily back dr m hello dr m hello everyone this particular episode because i know what you're going to be talking about i i don't think i've ever been as excited for a dr m as i am this one whoa
[1:15] What have you got against social chit-chat at the moment?
[1:17] You just keep diving straight into the topic.
[1:21] No, no, no.
[1:21] I just wanted to – it's just on my mind.
[1:24] I wanted to get it out.
[1:25] We can riff off the back of that if you want.
[1:27] I feel like everyone just wants to know what the topic is now and then we should just start.
[1:33] It's just a little tease.
[1:35] It's a broadcasting technique.
[1:37] Look it up.
[1:42] I will mate.
[1:45] I did think of something just like slightly amusing off the back of what just happened before we turned on the mics.
[1:52] Can I share?
[1:53] Something I love more than slightly amusing anecdotes.
[1:57] The first thing I thought was Em would love this slightly amusing anecdote.
[2:00] So I'll share it very quickly.
[2:02] Well, the reason it came up was that you asked if you had anything in your teeth and I nearly went to get it out for you.
[2:07] Oh, yeah.
[2:08] When I was a teacher, there was another teacher and she worked in a library and me and a friend of mine always noticed around holiday time she'd get really particularly down.
[2:20] And so we used to just go and visit her a lot just before holidays because we always felt like maybe school was her connection.
[2:25] That's where she just loved being around people and the holidays maybe she'd never too many people in her life.
[2:30] So we used to go and see her all the time before holidays.
[2:33] Anyway, this one particular time I went down to chat to her just at lunchtime when she was eating a sandwich and I said something to her that made her laugh a lot at a very inopportune moment because her mouth was completely full of sandwich.
[2:46] And as I said in the laugh, she did this laugh where she went, she tried to keep her food in but she went like that and food just went flying everywhere.
[2:53] It looked like a sprinkler of chewed up sandwiches going everywhere.
[2:56] Like the Bellagio fountains.
[2:58] Yes, like that of sandwich.
[2:59] And I was looking straight at it, I was about a metre away.
[3:03] And it landed, like a bit of sandwich landed straight on my lip, like, right on my lip.
[3:08] And I could see her going, oh, I got him.
[3:10] And I was going, nope, she got me.
[3:12] But it's not something you talk about.
[3:14] And as, how's this, I was like, we just, it was just really awkward.
[3:18] I was like, I got to get rid of this.
[3:20] And then just out of nowhere,
[3:23] Like my tongue was just like, I got this.
[3:26] And my tongue just like, I just licked it off my lips.
[3:31] Wow.
[3:32] I was like, I didn't go, I know what to do.
[3:34] My tongue just, it took over.
[3:36] My tongue just did it.
[3:37] I didn't say, I know how to do this.
[3:39] I'll get my tongue.
[3:40] My tongue just went, I got it.
[3:41] Did she notice?
[3:42] Yeah, she noticed.
[3:43] And we never really talked ever again.
[3:47] It was so- Never spoke again about anything.
[3:49] She looked so disgusted in me and I looked a bit disgusted in myself.
[3:54] And I sort of traced off and just thought, oh, well, God, that's awkward.
[3:59] What was, can I, just to break it down a little bit- Lettuce, tomato.
[4:04] No.
[4:04] What was the time it took between it landing on your lip and your tongue grabbing it?
[4:13] impact to lick off was probably about five to seven seconds.
[4:22] That's a long time.
[4:23] I just sat there and I was just becoming, it was heavy as well as a lot of food.
[4:27] How big?
[4:29] Talking in centimetres.
[4:30] It was probably half a five cent piece.
[4:33] No, no, that's huge still.
[4:34] Yeah, that's pretty big.
[4:35] Yeah, it's probably the size of, it was probably the size of a sultana.
[4:39] And I was just sitting there and I was like, I thought I didn't want to wipe it with my hand because if I wiped it with my hand, you're looking back on it, it happened a long time ago.
[4:46] If it wiping with my hand would have meant we'd both see it and then both have to go, oh, it's happened.
[4:50] It's embarrassing.
[4:50] But with my tongue, I think my brain just went, you could whip it away with your tongue and she'll never notice.
[4:54] Yeah.
[4:55] But she was just staring at this Sultana sized bit of masticated sandwich.
[4:59] So this is obviously before you were doing intermittent fasting.
[5:03] Yes, because I would not have Break the fast That much food?
[5:06] Yeah, it would have Wow Yeah, it's still one of the most Awkward moments of my entire life And we would see each other From time to time And just go Was the other guy there as well?
[5:17] Or person?
[5:18] Girl Yes, she was But she didn't see it Because she saw the food go everywhere And then I told her What had happened afterwards And she said You are the strangest person I have ever met
[5:27] Took the words right out of my mouth.
[5:31] Wow, Hugh.
[5:31] Anyway.
[5:32] Oh, God, that is fantastic.
[5:33] I'm feeling for our producer, Bridget, who gets a bit coisier with these kind of stories.
[5:37] Yeah.
[5:38] Are you still with us, Bridget?
[5:40] She almost vomited.
[5:42] God, fantastic, Hugh.
[5:44] Anyway.
[5:45] Anyway, back to the issue at hand.
[5:48] Dr. M. There is a huge chance that we will not play that.
[5:52] I'd be surprised if that came out.
[5:55] And then we got no small talk.
[5:59] Exactly.
[6:00] Dr. M, every month you obviously come onto the show, you bring with us some sort of wisdom from your psychologist knowledge bank.
[6:10] What is it today?
[6:11] I know what it is, but just speaking on behalf of the audience.
[6:14] Gosh, I feel there's a bit of a build up to this one.
[6:16] Um...
[6:18] And I don't want to say it specifically yet, but I just wanted to first of all mention that I'm not actually... Em knows the radio techniques.
[6:24] Yeah, she's looked it up.
[6:25] She's looked it up.
[6:25] I know, I know.
[6:29] But I also wanted to mention that I'm not bringing in a particular episode to reference back because it actually feels like this topic is probably tying into almost every single one of the episodes that is out there already.
[6:41] So this is more kind of like a broad concept that will have relevance to all of them, I think.
[6:46] Yeah.
[6:46] Yeah, a universally relatable topic.
[6:49] Yeah, exactly.
[6:50] Love it.
[6:51] So what I'm broadly talking about today is positive psychology.
[6:55] And there's a whole lot of different ways in which we can define positive psychology.
[7:00] It's a huge area of research, particularly in the last kind of 20 years.
[7:05] But there's a particular professor who really, I think, sums up positive psychology.
[7:12] And he sums it up, and he says this in his lectures, he sums it up in three words.
[7:19] Other people matter.
[7:22] It's the best.
[7:23] And what he proposes is that if we look at what kind of the meaning is of positive psychology, it's kind of this scientific study of, of what makes life worth living.
[7:33] And he says it's other people and then other people matter.
[7:37] Mm-hmm.
[7:39] It's brilliant.
[7:40] It's brilliant.
[7:40] Well, thanks for coming in, Em.
[7:42] That's great.
[7:44] So the reason I'm so excited about this topic is I've done like an afternoon's worth of research on this a while ago because early on when I was seeing psychologists I've seen over the years and Josh, you have as well, she introduced me to this concept.
[8:03] And so the professor I think you're talking about is Dr. Christopher Peterson.
[8:06] Mm-hmm.
[8:08] from America, is a university professor.
[8:11] And he's sort of like known, I think, as sort of one of the fathers of positive psychology, sadly passed away now.
[8:21] But he seemed to be like a real pioneer and front runner in setting the...
[8:27] He wrote a lot about positive psychology.
[8:30] Then I heard this story about it, which was that he was, he'd been lecturing for years.
[8:37] I talked a lot about positive psychology, thought a lot about it.
[8:41] And he was going to write a paper like this huge, I guess, I don't know what it'd be like a thesis or a paper.
[8:47] What would you call it?
[8:47] Like a dissertation or meta-analysis.
[8:50] Dissertation, essay, something on the topic of like what makes us happy.
[8:55] That was this broad, big topic.
[8:57] But because he was who he was and he'd done all the research he'd done, the entire, maybe entire positive psychology community or psychology community was really excited to find out what, to read his paper.
[9:10] And so he'd spent years researching this.
[9:12] He'd interviewed like thousands of people and like read lots of stuff, written lots of stuff.
[9:18] So what he was going to say about it was important.
[9:22] And finally, it was coming time for him to publish and everyone was really excited to read this paper.
[9:27] And he only published the three words, other people matter.
[9:30] Awesome.
[9:34] And I think, I mean, there's so much that sits underneath that statement, really.
[9:38] You know, it's in some ways, obviously, such a simple statement, but it really hits at the core of what makes life worth living, really, is our sense of connection and connectedness with other people.
[9:50] Mm-hmm.
[9:51] Actually, it's probably worth even mentioning what maybe some of the misconceptions are about positive psychology.
[9:55] And I first really want to emphasize that positive psychology is not positive thinking.
[10:01] It's not about being positive.
[10:04] It's not about, you know, gritting your teeth, smiling through something.
[10:08] It's actually kind of in some ways unrelated to that, but it is the study of, you know,
[10:15] positive emotions, it's the study of traits and states that elicit positive experiences and positive emotions.
[10:23] It's also the study of institutions that promote wellbeing.
[10:27] But all of that, all of that stuff that sits there is held by how we relate to, how we connect with and how we care for and show up to other people.
[10:39] I feel like I've heard once that it comes from that previously to this, a lot of psychology was focusing on what could be perceived as negative diagnosis and deficits.
[10:50] Yes, absolutely.
[10:51] And then this was the first time that there was a directed attention into what we'd call positive character traits.
[10:58] Yes, absolutely.
[10:58] And in fact, it was the kind of, I would say maybe one of the founders or the primary founder was Martin Seligman.
[11:06] And his research, his initial research was actually on learned helplessness, which is a feature and aspect experience in depression.
[11:14] And so really, you know, the, the main research, you know, probably up until the nineties was around kind of this medical illness model.
[11:24] So.
[11:24] coming from a place of scarcity or a place of lacking, a place of deficit, a place of illness.
[11:32] So all approaches to therapy and to psychology were really around how do we get someone functioning from a place of ill health to a place of normal functioning.
[11:42] Yeah.
[11:43] Whereas positive psychology, it actually moves into like a really different sphere of functioning.
[11:49] And interestingly, it was Martin Seligman that moved from learned helplessness and the study of kind of ill health actually into the study of wellbeing and flourishing and optimism.
[12:01] Yeah.
[12:01] Okay.
[12:02] So it went from learned helplessness into almost learned optimism.
[12:07] Yeah.
[12:07] And so he was kind of the founder in some ways of this movement towards looking at how we flourish, how we experience vitality, how we experience like a life worth living.
[12:20] And Christopher Peterson was one of his colleagues and they've written quite a few papers together,
[12:26] And it was their work together that looked at things like character traits.
[12:31] So the virtues or the character strengths that I have that promote wellbeing and promote happiness, promote resilience, those sorts of things.
[12:42] So did Seligman just have a much better PR team?
[12:44] Because he certainly is more out there than Peterson.
[12:47] Yeah, well, he's definitely very well known.
[12:49] Also because he, I think in the late 90s, became the president of the APA, which is the American Psychological Association.
[12:57] Yeah.
[12:58] And so, you know, obviously he was really, he was much more well publicised.
[13:04] But also, you know, really sadly, Christopher Peterson passed away in 2012.
[13:07] And so...
[13:08] you know, the capacity for us to know more of Peterson's work is so limited because, you know, he hasn't been able to continue his work.
[13:16] But Seligman still, you know, is very much, you know, in the world of positive psychology and producing a lot of really interesting and important kind of research.
[13:25] Wow.
[13:26] I mean, it's kind of,
[13:29] I think it's well described as the science of flourishing really like the, because I think a lot of before positive psychology, it was when you went to a psychologist, you were assessed on a scale of, I think it was zero to negative five.
[13:41] Is that right?
[13:41] And, and, um, and then Sullivan said, well, let's have a plus, like, rather than getting people to zero, let's get them to flourish.
[13:49] Let's get them beyond neutral or whatever you want to call it and get them to this positive place of flourishing.
[13:56] Absolutely, and I think it really importantly in there that it's not just about happiness because if we think of happiness, it's one measure of experience, but also happiness is a state.
[14:07] So it's an emotion that like any other emotion comes and goes.
[14:12] So we don't want to use that as the hallmark of a life worth living because it's a transitory emotional state.
[14:20] So there are these other markers of what actually Peterson calls the good life.
[14:26] And they're probably some of the things that we might talk about a little bit today.
[14:29] That sounds good.
[14:31] Yeah, because more and more you do realise the more you read about things or hear people talk about this stuff is that you realise that the pursuit of happiness as like a goal in life does not make sense.
[14:46] No.
[14:47] You can't be happy all the time.
[14:49] Yeah.
[14:49] And I'm also struck by that thing.
[14:51] I don't know who said it, but that fun is only fun because it stops.
[14:57] Oh, that's good.
[14:58] Nothing, anything you can think of that's fun, if I told you you're going to do that for the rest of your life nonstop, becomes awful.
[15:06] Yeah.
[15:06] And I think it's similar with happiness.
[15:08] Like happiness is only happiness because it stops.
[15:10] Yeah.
[15:10] Do you guys have anything come into your head then that would be like?
[15:13] Tiggy.
[15:17] I thought of the ball pit at Ikea.
[15:19] Oh, yeah.
[15:20] Yeah, that is only fun because it stops.
[15:25] Yes, okay.
[15:26] So, I mean, there are so many researchers in this area that are producing something like such interesting and really important work.
[15:33] But if we come back to this kind of core theme around other people matter...
[15:39] You know, really what Peterson's saying in there is that all the things that create or foster or cultivate this life that's worth living involve other people usually.
[15:49] And I just want to start off with one kind of area, and that is the area of pleasurable experience and celebration.
[15:59] And so I want you to think about, you know, when you think of maybe like a recent pleasurable experience,
[16:06] How often are those experiences in solitude or how often are they in the company of other people?
[16:13] Yeah.
[16:13] I mean, well, the first thing that comes to mind is our live tour, our imperfect stage tour that we did earlier in the year and will continue to do.
[16:24] But it's – that is – and I've often thought this, that live performing –
[16:29] doesn't really interest me on my own because I think that I find it hard to see the joy in that.
[16:37] I greatly admire solo performers like stand-up comedians.
[16:41] And I just think it's incredible because it would be so hard.
[16:46] And I think the reason for me, the reason I think it would be so hard is because in success or in failure, it's hard to find joy in it.
[16:56] I did a show just before COVID with a few friends.
[17:00] It was called Dave's Shed Show, which was like a live – it was a web – Dave Lawson hosted it.
[17:07] It was like a web show that we did live at the Comedy Festival for a few nights.
[17:10] And I remember there was a stand-up just before us in the venue we were at, and she was killing – she was getting so many laughs.
[17:18] And then she – because we were waiting in the wings to set up our show once she finished and the audience left –
[17:24] She came off to like, you know, huge applause and laughter and everyone just loved her.
[17:28] She's hilarious.
[17:30] And she came back and there was no one there back there that she was with because she's just, she's a standup.
[17:35] And so she went back, like waved and it was high energy.
[17:39] But then as soon as she came back, she's a, you know, like a professional comedian.
[17:43] So the energy just drops, checks her phone, grabs her bag.
[17:47] And then, and then that was it.
[17:48] Like she's done.
[17:49] She leaves.
[17:51] And...
[17:53] Certainly not to criticise that way of working like that.
[17:57] It works for so many people.
[17:58] But for me, I would find that really tough because she was – it was such a successful show and she didn't look like – she had no one to go back and celebrate with essentially.
[18:09] Whereas when we – yeah, well, that's what you did for so long.
[18:12] I've lived both and I did like, you know, for many years.
[18:16] I think the example I gave was Adelaide Entertainment Centre –
[18:20] It was the last one I did last year.
[18:22] It's like 2,000 people there and it was such a great night.
[18:26] Literally 15 minutes after the show finishes, I'm sitting on my hotel bed by myself just going, okay, I guess I'll go to sleep.
[18:33] And it's like you feel really – because you've had 2,000 people loving it and then by yourself it feels extremely lonely.
[18:39] And now we do this live show and it's just like we're hugging afterwards, like the four of us are hugging after we finish and –
[18:47] And actually someone who had been meeting the audience after and someone said to me, what's your favourite part of the show?
[18:54] And I thought for a second and I said, you know, my favourite part is when I'm off the stage and I'm watching Josh perform or I'm watching Ryan perform.
[19:01] That's my favourite part, watching the others do their thing.
[19:04] I love it.
[19:05] Like it's such a lovely moment.
[19:06] So, yeah, I couldn't – that resonates with me so strongly.
[19:12] Mm-hmm.
[19:13] Yeah.
[19:14] Nothing.
[19:17] No, I just greatly disagree with what you're saying.
[19:19] Yeah, my favourite part is when I perform.
[19:23] But I think, I mean, both of those examples are, I mean, so important and that is that it's in the company of others that we can really savour and experience pleasure.
[19:33] You know, a similar example came to my mind.
[19:35] I remember when I finished, I had finished my PhD and I handed it in at the desk of the, like the university desk.
[19:44] And I was on my own, which was probably in hindsight a silly idea, but I handed it in.
[19:48] This is like this piece of work I'd worked on for so long.
[19:51] I handed it in and the woman that received it was like, thank you.
[19:54] And she just turned around and walked away.
[19:56] And I remember standing there going, oh, this is.
[19:59] What do you mean?
[20:00] Thank you.
[20:01] So then I got in the lift and I pressed the button and I was like, oh, okay.
[20:05] Yes, that's it.
[20:05] That's done then.
[20:07] But it was when I went out for dinner with my parents that night where there was this moment to savour the celebration of this achievement.
[20:17] But that sense of achievement and accomplishment and pride and gratitude and all those sorts of pleasant experiences or emotions would not have been there in the absence of someone to witness them.
[20:29] Yeah.
[20:30] And this is really kind of, you know, for me, I think really fundamental when it comes to the importance of celebration and celebrating other people's successes because it fosters connection.
[20:45] Does that kind of resonate with you?
[20:46] Absolutely.
[20:47] The thing I'm, I don't know why my mind went here, but whenever I'm having, like if I'm having fun by myself, like if I see something that I find funny on like a YouTube video or something I find funny, the immediate feeling is I want to share this with people and send it around to people.
[21:02] Similarly, similarly, similarly, similarly, similarly, similarly, similarly, similarly,
[21:10] What a funny word.
[21:15] When I am, say, experiencing something that's fun with either out by myself or with one of my kids,
[21:27] The desire to take a photo of it and share it is kind of pretty quick because I want to share that experience of joy and fun.
[21:34] And I just wonder if the whole like social media thing of like it becomes about projecting a life that you're not potentially living.
[21:41] But I feel like does it have a much more innocent acorn where it began of just like I want to share this joy with other people?
[21:49] I think that's a really great question.
[21:51] And I think, you know, to me, the thing that first hits me is that there is this natural instinct we have to connect and to share.
[21:59] Um, and so you're sharing something that's really important to you.
[22:02] And it's almost like if there's no one here to witness this experience, is this not as meaningful?
[22:08] Yeah.
[22:09] Yeah, which is kind of the – and then people turn to the cliche of like, if you didn't take a photo of it, did it really happen?
[22:15] It's like the sort of joke.
[22:16] But it kind of feels like there's more truth to it, that if only I experienced this, did it really happen?
[22:22] Well, it makes sense if you think about it without getting too cynical, but it makes sense that a company would be able to observe something that is so important to us as humans –
[22:34] which is the need to share a happy moment with friends and commercialise it.
[22:42] Of course.
[22:43] It makes complete sense as to why they would want to do that because it's obviously worked.
[22:48] Yeah.
[22:48] It's one of those things that seems obvious when I think, but it just never occurred to look at it from that angle before for me.
[22:54] Anyway, continue.
[22:56] Sorry to digress.
[22:58] There is a really lovely piece of research that has come from Peterson's work actually, although it wasn't actually him that did this research but he was reporting on it, to do with celebration and to do with connection.
[23:11] And he cites this research that was done by Krauss and colleagues in 2010.
[23:16] And it was looking at basically kind of the determinants of performance, of work performance or good performance.
[23:24] And he studied, or the team studied NBA in the 2008-2009 NBA season.
[23:32] And what their intention was to look at predictors of performance across the season through kind of two factors being trust and cooperation and,
[23:44] But that there was an element in there that would facilitate trust and cooperation that would then lead to high performance and that was physical touch in celebration.
[23:56] Whoa.
[23:57] So what the team did was they coded, and this was really robust research too, they coded, they watched the whole season and they coded- Every game.
[24:05] Yep.
[24:05] They coded the number of touches, fist bumps, high fives, chest bumps, hugs.
[24:11] Oh, my God.
[24:11] They coded all of the games and looked at which, like at the beginning and at the end, which teams were performing the best.
[24:21] So before they started this, did they hypothesize the physical touch?
[24:25] Is that why they were tracking it?
[24:27] Yeah.
[24:27] So their hypothesis was that physical touch would, the frequency of physical touch would increase trust and cooperation and trust and cooperation would then lead to high performance.
[24:39] So that's why they were tracking it.
[24:40] Yeah.
[24:40] Yeah.
[24:41] So they coded all the behaviors and at the end of the season, it was unequivocal.
[24:47] that the higher number of physical touches in a game led to higher performance ultimately through some other variables, but ultimately led to a greater performance of the team at the end of the season.
[25:01] Fascinating.
[25:02] And I think like this is for all the basketball people out there.
[25:05] You and Ryan both leaning in.
[25:08] I'm basically horizontal.
[25:13] The players that recorded the highest number of touches were
[25:17] I can't remember all their names, but the one that I knew, and so I'm going to report this one, was Kobe Bryant.
[25:23] So he was one of the most highly celebratory touch, physical touch players in that season.
[25:30] Toucher or touchy.
[25:31] He touched the most.
[25:33] Oh, that's a good question.
[25:34] I don't know, actually.
[25:35] I think it was making the celebration.
[25:37] Yeah.
[25:38] Which could be partly because he's on court a lot.
[25:41] Like he's doing a lot of playing on minutes.
[25:43] But also, I'm sure that's not the only reason.
[25:45] Yeah.
[25:46] And I do want to emphasize that they did also take into account any confounding variables.
[25:50] So they controlled for confounding variables.
[25:52] Such as the fact that he had so much to celebrate because he scored so much, for example.
[25:56] He was always scoring.
[25:58] That's the first thing I thought was like the team that won, they would have outscored every other team.
[26:04] Yep, so they controlled for all of these variables and looked at their performance at the beginning of the season too.
[26:13] So basically what they did was they could really pull out from this data the fact that,
[26:19] When we are celebrating and celebrating through physical touch, this increases trust and cooperation and we therefore have a much greater likelihood of performing really well as a team.
[26:31] which I think is pretty interesting.
[26:33] It's fascinating.
[26:33] I mean, it would be really interesting to know.
[26:35] Obviously, we can't now, but it would be really interesting to know if he knew that, if he had any insight or advice, if he knew that at all.
[26:47] I don't think he would have because then that would ruin the researcher.
[26:49] I don't think he knew.
[26:51] No, not that they told him about it.
[26:53] But if he just knew as a leader, if he was like, you know what, I feel like this really helps teamwork or whatever.
[27:00] If he was consciously making an effort to be more like physical and
[27:03] You know, who knows?
[27:07] But I think that kind of like when you think about the times when you've kind of achieved something and it's interesting you guys actually mentioned it that at the end of your show you want to hug each other.
[27:16] Yeah.
[27:17] Yeah.
[27:17] We have a group hug, yeah.
[27:18] Yeah.
[27:18] And interestingly I find that if I, before the show, if I'm not feeling like I'm quite in it and I need to get in the zone,
[27:26] I will give you guys a hug and try and like get physical, like just to, and that's a way I get into a better place.
[27:34] Tops off skin on skin.
[27:35] Yeah.
[27:37] It's like the baby thing.
[27:38] Skin on skin.
[27:39] Yeah.
[27:39] I feel like that really helps, especially when you can't sleep.
[27:41] It's really helpful if you just lay on my chest.
[27:47] curled up in the balls.
[27:49] How interesting.
[27:54] That's amazing.
[27:54] Yeah.
[27:55] And I think it really speaks to, again, you know, there's a couple of things in there.
[27:58] The first is being able to celebrate together an achievement or celebrate together, even little moments, um, where, you know, even if something hasn't gone well and you'll see this obviously in a lot of sports, you know, you'll see when people are like being encouraged,
[28:14] giving an encouraging tap on the head even if, you know, something didn't go well.
[28:17] You know, like there's these moments where we're still present to someone else's difficulty, we're present to someone's effort.
[28:26] Does that kind of make sense?
[28:27] Yeah, absolutely.
[28:28] I mean it's making me – because the sports example is so interesting but does it translate to romantic couples as far as like intimate touch or just like just day-to-day intimacy?
[28:41] Because, you know, some couples are more –
[28:43] touchy-feely than other couples.
[28:45] But has there been any research or does it translate?
[28:48] Yeah.
[28:48] Look, I'm sure there definitely is.
[28:50] But I've got to be honest, I don't actually know the specifics.
[28:53] My hunch is-
[28:55] Yeah, that's my area of expertise.
[28:58] My hunch is that that would probably be a predictor of trust and cooperation in the same vein.
[29:06] And, you know, of course there's going to be individual differences and, you know, you may know people that are a little bit more standoffish but that doesn't make them less, you know, less connected.
[29:16] Totally, yeah, yeah.
[29:18] Interesting.
[29:19] But in there, like, again, kind of looking at,
[29:22] Where do we show up to other people's experiences, whether they are successes or whether they're struggles?
[29:28] Mm-hmm.
[29:29] There's – so does – so again, the book The Courage to be Disliked comes to mind, which is – which for anyone who's read it will know that it's – a lot of it comes from the, like, theories, ideas from Alfred Adler.
[29:47] He talks about community feeling and so this idea of –
[29:52] The goal is not for me to be happy.
[29:54] The goal is not for you to be happy, but the goal is for us to be happy and to be constantly checking in with everyone to be making sure that we're all happy, whether it be as a couple or as a family or as a basketball team or as a planet.
[30:09] And that feels like it kind of crosses over.
[30:12] Absolutely, yeah.
[30:14] And interestingly, in the same book, actually, Adler makes – there's this kind of statement in there that all problems, all personal problems are interpersonal problems.
[30:25] Yeah, all problems are interpersonal problems, aren't they?
[30:27] Yeah, yeah.
[30:28] Yeah, so everything – any problem you have stems from some sort of relationship or person.
[30:34] Yeah, which again, you know, we can see coming back to this concept that Peterson proposes is that –
[30:39] you know, really our wellbeing is dependent upon other people and our relationship with them.
[30:45] Yeah.
[30:45] That's on the sports example, I was just reflecting back to like, I played a lot of cricket for a long time.
[30:50] Alright, mate.
[30:51] I didn't say I was at a particularly high level.
[30:57] That's it, that's all I'm saying.
[31:01] When someone takes a wicket in cricket,
[31:04] And this is something that I can't have to think about when we're talking about this, is that like you all run in together, in my case, 11 men on a team, and we all hug each other.
[31:13] Like it's just all these 11 men just hugging quite intimately and making lots of noise because we're cheering.
[31:20] And that's what I like.
[31:21] And it's lovely.
[31:23] And I remember how often... Do you need a moment?
[31:27] But I remember how often I'd be in this middle of this pile of 11 men all hugging and making weird noises.
[31:34] Not weird noises, like celebratory noises.
[31:36] Appropriate noises.
[31:38] Yeah, that's the noise, yeah.
[31:40] Great job, mate.
[31:40] Good wicket.
[31:41] Yeah, things like that.
[31:42] Yeah, great wicket you just got.
[31:44] Stuff like that.
[31:45] Yeah, stuff like that.
[31:45] Good catch, mate.
[31:46] Yeah, things like that.
[31:48] Sweet LBW.
[31:49] Yes, another good example, I might say.
[31:51] It's covering all bases.
[31:54] Good slips, Kutch.
[31:55] Yeah.
[31:55] Any other modes of dismissal you want to go through?
[31:59] Great court and bold.
[32:00] Yeah, great C&B.
[32:04] Anyway, it's just like something good's happened.
[32:07] And so often in life when things good happen, you just go, oh, that's a good thing that happened.
[32:10] But when you're playing sport or when you're playing cricket, in that example, it's like we all just run around hugging and making silly noises.
[32:17] And it's lovely.
[32:18] Like the physical touch and the celebration all happen.
[32:22] And you take 10 weeks, it happens 10 times in an afternoon.
[32:24] And it is about celebrating someone else because –
[32:27] At the end of the day, if the game is won, and so let's say you've pretty much already won, or you're going to win easily, or the other team have already won, but you're still out there for whatever reason, bowling.
[32:38] If you get a wicket, there's no real celebration.
[32:39] Because everyone's about like, well, the game's over, so this is not exciting.
[32:43] It's just like when it's about the team, lots of cuddles.
[32:47] Yeah.
[32:48] Can you think of in the different, and for Josh as well, like in the different cricket teams you've been on with different groups of guys, were there certain teams that had more physical touch that you think were more like better teams?
[33:01] We were definitely, it was just like if you're much closer as a group of people.
[33:04] You were more successful as a team, do you think?
[33:07] I can't remember that necessarily.
[33:10] It's just like it was an indication of how close you were.
[33:11] Yeah, I remember it being more enjoyable playing there.
[33:14] And my sense is that if you're having fun, probably being more successful too.
[33:17] Yeah.
[33:18] Which really kind of reinforces the research there too.
[33:20] Yeah.
[33:21] You know, the closer you are, the more trust, the more cooperation, the more touch, the more celebration, the better the performance.
[33:26] Yeah.
[33:26] Yeah.
[33:27] Yeah.
[33:28] I guess if we're looking at some other aspects that are related to this kind of particular concept, another one of, I guess, maybe the aspects of living that Peterson suggests is really related to this idea of other people matter is the idea of the family meal.
[33:45] And this doesn't have to be specific to parents and children, but it can be this concept of the community or the communal meal that we share.
[33:55] And there were some stats that were done probably about 10 years ago.
[33:59] I don't have the ones for Australia, but in the States it was something like 40 to 50% of Americans don't eat dinner together as families.
[34:10] which is like it's a really high number.
[34:12] So basically like 50% of families are not eating dinner together.
[34:15] There's just sort of just – there's a great documentary called The Queen of Versailles, which is brilliant doco about the – I think it's sort of loosely about the – I think the housing crisis or the global – there was some sort of financial crisis that it was set around, essentially about one of the richest families in America.
[34:36] He was one of the owners or founders of Timeshare Properties, I guess.
[34:40] And it was about his wife and their family and they had all these kids.
[34:44] And in the middle of – the documentary when it starts is about them building the biggest house in America.
[34:50] And then when the financial crisis hits, they lose all this money and they have to – they had like I think seven children and they had to fire six of the seven nannies that they had to look after all the kids.
[35:04] And so the wife of the guy who was living this luxurious life and had a room full of things that they've bought and didn't want anymore, so they just put it in this room.
[35:14] This is insane, disgusting luxury.
[35:17] And the reason I bring it up is because when this happens and all the nannies are gone and all of a sudden she has to now look after all these children –
[35:26] there's this scene where she gets the family to sit around the table and have dinner, which they'd never done.
[35:33] And so she's like, all right, we are going to have a meal.
[35:37] We're going to have dinner together.
[35:38] And the kids are like baffled.
[35:41] She's like, we're going to do it like they do it on television.
[35:44] And so like the kids are setting the table, but they're like, what is this bizarre thing?
[35:49] Like they had no...
[35:51] The point is that they grow closer together without all the money and it becomes actually this sort of binding thing.
[35:56] But anyway, that was just sort of an interesting thing that we probably cut out.
[35:59] Cheers.
[36:00] Oh, no, I think that I... My confidence in that just declined.
[36:05] I was really enjoying that.
[36:07] Thank you.
[36:08] Shit, shit, shit, shit, shit.
[36:11] No, I think that was a very high no.
[36:13] It was really high.
[36:15] Yeah.
[36:16] The higher it is, the less I trust it.
[36:19] I've known you for a long time.
[36:20] It's the highest no I've ever heard you say.
[36:22] Are you sure the spaghetti's okay?
[36:24] Yeah, yeah.
[36:25] It's good.
[36:26] It's fine.
[36:29] That is a very relevant example because we see it obviously in TV shows and things around this, like this notion of the family dinner, but it's there for a reason.
[36:40] because it's not about what we're eating.
[36:43] It's never really about the particular food per se that we're eating, but it's about this ritual of coming together to see each other.
[36:52] And the research again is really unequivocal when it comes to the benefits of eating together as a family.
[36:58] And, you know, gosh, I really want to acknowledge the difficulties of, of eating with little kids.
[37:03] Like, you know, this is not always a very pleasurable experience.
[37:07] Um,
[37:09] The least pleasurable thing you could do.
[37:13] Yep.
[37:13] And you'd do it.
[37:14] Wow.
[37:15] That's a big statement.
[37:16] We are now entering negative psychology.
[37:20] The less talked about form.
[37:22] But if we can kind of sit with what's the long-term gain here, and that is we know that the research says, first of all, that families that are eating together more often and usually are healthier,
[37:36] So there's lots of reasons for that.
[37:38] If you think about the alternative to eating together with a family, it's often you might be eating in front of a TV, hypothetically.
[37:44] And when you're eating kind of mindlessly, we also tend to eat more and eat things that aren't necessarily as good for us.
[37:50] So there's that aspect.
[37:53] But it's really fundamentally this moment of coming together to see each other.
[37:57] And maybe we see each other in a way where someone's really struggling or maybe we see that this is a really, really difficult moment to be here with one another.
[38:05] But the alternative is avoidance.
[38:08] And so if we've got like, basically we've got avoidance of discomfort or we've got discomfort with the view of this being in the direction I would like our family to head in.
[38:19] Does that kind of make sense?
[38:20] Yeah.
[38:21] So I'm just kind of really acknowledging the little kids scenario here, but I'm also acknowledging the scenario where you have adolescent children and maybe there's no talking.
[38:30] Or maybe there's grunting or maybe there's disagreement and conflict at the table.
[38:34] Well, the ultimate thing to acknowledge from mine is that many families battle with someone with an eating disorder around the table and that is a nightmare.
[38:43] Yeah, and that's a whole other thing.
[38:45] Yeah, I do really want to acknowledge that.
[38:46] So, you know, of course there are going to be some really difficult aspects to this idea.
[38:51] But at the heart of what we're looking at here is an opportunity for some quality moment.
[38:58] And it might be quality that is hard, but it's a time in which you are present to other people's experience with.
[39:06] We have an opportunity to ask, how was your day?
[39:10] And we can obviously bring in a whole lot of different kinds of questions that really kind of can bring into kind of gratitude moments, for example.
[39:18] But, you know, for me that this is like a tradition that we can cultivate not only with our families, but it can also be with friends.
[39:27] I'm just kind of thinking back even to things like, you know, if there are people listening that live in share houses, you know, do you have a family dinner once a week?
[39:34] Like, do you have this opportunity, you know, in your share house where you all cook together or you eat together?
[39:41] You know, is this an opportunity that you have to kind of sit down and say like, gosh, like how, like, how are you going here?
[39:47] I just can't help but think about this podcast.
[39:51] It's pretty amazing, actually.
[39:53] We sit around a circular table and we just talk for the sake of talking because we have a podcast, because we're recording it.
[40:02] Otherwise, we wouldn't just sit around like this facing each other and just talking about something so consciously, intentionally.
[40:10] Yeah.
[40:11] But it's so good.
[40:12] Like, I love it so much.
[40:15] And, of course, I mean, there are times where we're so engrossed, you just forget that there are microphones and cameras because it's just such a healthy thing to do.
[40:24] Yeah.
[40:24] But it's so rare that you actually get to do it.
[40:28] This may be a pointless side strain, but I wonder what the shape of the table matters.
[40:32] Because I feel like circular tables are so much better for conversation than square.
[40:37] It just makes me think of the Knights of the Round Table.
[40:39] You know, that there's something.
[40:41] Everyone's equal.
[40:42] Yeah, there is.
[40:43] And there's like an infiniteness about a circle, like a circle, right?
[40:47] So that we're all together and there's no one that is of higher status than another.
[40:51] Yeah.
[40:52] So, yeah, I think there could be something, you know, certainly in terms of like how you sit around a table together.
[40:57] We've got this table that we sit around.
[40:59] It's so great, grandparents, I think.
[41:02] And it's had like, at one point there was some ridiculous amount of people in a family that there was like 10 siblings or something.
[41:10] It's about the size of this.
[41:11] And there was at some point in time, there were family dinners happening around that table.
[41:14] There was like 11 of them squeezed around the table.
[41:17] It feels like a four or five person table.
[41:19] Yeah.
[41:20] It's probably smaller than this actually.
[41:21] A little bit smaller than this.
[41:23] But I was looking at it and it's like a hundred years old.
[41:26] It's pretty rickety.
[41:28] But I was looking at it last night weirdly and from the couch and thinking...
[41:32] I reckon even if we got enough money to update the dining setup, I kind of like the idea of just keeping that one for our family dinners to keep because of the amount, the shared experience and the rickety-ness of it.
[41:46] Yeah.
[41:46] I don't know.
[41:47] It's funny that it would pop in.
[41:49] The history of it is just, if you think about it, it's quite cool.
[41:53] And a small, like, I feel like if we were going to get a new one, we'd end up with a big fancy thing where everyone's a bit further apart, a bit nicer.
[42:00] There's something about this table that's a bit imperfect.
[42:05] I really regret saying that.
[42:07] It's a little bit shitty, but lovely.
[42:10] And it's small.
[42:11] So we're all kind of compact around this thing.
[42:13] Lovely.
[42:13] Lovely.
[42:14] That's really good.
[42:15] I think that's beautiful.
[42:16] It's actually interesting.
[42:17] This is a bit of a personal note, but my parents are most likely about to pack up our long-standing family home and they're probably going to have to get rid of most of the furniture, the furniture that I kind of grew up with and things.
[42:30] And there is something about our kitchen table, you know, for sure.
[42:33] It's actually interesting.
[42:34] As you're talking, the thought of that table going is like this is the table where we've like –
[42:41] Shared everything, like pleasant, unpleasant, all of the things are around that table.
[42:46] Yeah.
[42:47] And it just really represents, like this is like this representation of family and being connected.
[42:52] Yeah.
[42:54] So I guess just, you know, having this moment to reflect on...
[42:57] you know, how often can I show up to this and how can I let, for example, how can I let my phone go or how can I let work go?
[43:03] How can I give over 30 minutes to show up to this family?
[43:07] If that's the only time I get during the day, like, can I be present to this even if it feels really hard?
[43:13] Yeah.
[43:14] First thing I think is, and I'm not saying I'm good at this, but –
[43:18] Because I was thinking about parents going, how do I get my teenagers to get off their phones?
[43:23] I'm more thinking going back a step and just thinking for parents who have kids our age, like, you know, primary school kids who don't have a phone yet, just modelling, modelling and never have your phone on the table.
[43:33] So it doesn't look like an acceptable thing to do at any point.
[43:36] And again, I'm not perfect at that, but... Oh, absolutely.
[43:39] Yeah, and I should say we're not perfect either.
[43:40] We have, like, I reckon it's 50% of the time we can get Charlie to sit there, but otherwise he wants to watch TV and we're like, no, can't watch TV.
[43:52] Well, we try to hold that rule, but obviously break it a lot, as every parent seems to do with their rules, I hope.
[43:58] But he'll then take his food and want to sit at the coffee table with the hope that the TV will just come on at some point.
[44:03] So he just sits there eating it going like, who's going to break first?
[44:07] But it always feels like a win.
[44:09] So I'm not trying to project that we have, we're a family, that we always sit down together and always do it.
[44:14] But it always feels like such a win when we can get him, get us all there.
[44:18] And it's probably about 50% of the time, but it's awesome when it happens.
[44:22] I'm just kind of thinking like, you know, even as you're talking about the traditions of saying grace, and, you know, I'm not a particularly spiritual person per se, but if we look at kind of what that tradition is, you know, obviously it's paying thanks to God, but also this is this moment here of gratitude for us being here together to share this meal.
[44:41] So, you know, in some ways we can also play with this idea around, you know, what's sitting under the intention of that particular tradition.
[44:49] Yeah.
[44:50] There is, you know, this is for maybe this is for parents with little kids.
[44:54] And I don't do this all the time, but I have done it on occasion.
[44:57] There's I don't know if anyone's if you guys have seen little meditation bowls that you kind of.
[45:04] Yeah, they like the sound bowls.
[45:06] Yeah.
[45:06] Or you can just use an app on your phone.
[45:11] I've done this a few times with my kids.
[45:13] Sometimes it's really helpful.
[45:14] Sometimes like they are away with the various.
[45:16] But to start, like to start a dinner, you ring the bell and you ask them, whoever doesn't hear the sound anymore, like as soon as you don't hear the sound, you put your hand up.
[45:28] So the practice is that they are having to pay attention to the sound or to the absence of the sound.
[45:35] That's so good.
[45:36] And it's just this way of kind of starting like the entry into this meal together.
[45:40] How about a gong?
[45:41] I think a gong would be great next to the dinner table.
[45:44] Yeah.
[45:44] Like a big like gong.
[45:45] And then you just need Red Simon to have dinner with you every night.
[45:48] Gong and red.
[45:48] Yeah.
[45:49] But it's just this like little moment sometimes.
[45:51] And again, you know, like this is ideal world stuff really.
[45:54] But and we can play around with what kind of traditions you have at the beginning of a meal.
[45:58] And maybe it is even something like what, you know, what went well today, you know, kind of really utilising that gratitude practice.
[46:05] But where are these moments to pause to kind of really see each other here right now?
[46:11] I love it.
[46:11] That's really cool.
[46:12] The gong is great.
[46:14] The gong would be great.
[46:14] It would be so dramatic.
[46:15] Imagine that.
[46:16] Yeah.
[46:17] The gong to kick off the meal.
[46:19] It would be great.
[46:20] It's a great idea, though.
[46:22] It just...
[46:24] Any kind of tradition around family moments is such a... Because they'll be talking about it in 20 years time.
[46:30] I remember we had to listen to that... Dad used to ring that bowl thing.
[46:33] We had to like...
[46:34] It was so weird.
[46:36] Telling their friends.
[46:37] Yeah.
[46:38] Yeah.
[46:38] You might have had a gong.
[46:44] I think I told you guys this, but just on the practice of gratitude at dinner time, we were away with Penny's parents for the whole summer holidays.
[46:51] It was like five weeks and the kids and everything.
[46:54] And so because we're all together, all sit around the table every single night, wasn't around one, but we would –
[47:00] And I would, every single night, I was like, everyone's going to say what your favorite thing was.
[47:05] And so I would start with the grandparents and then Penny and I would do it, then the kids would do it.
[47:10] And Benji, who was five at the time, didn't love it all the time, but he listened.
[47:15] Like he always listened.
[47:15] This is the message people are going, my kids wouldn't do that gratitude stuff.
[47:18] He didn't participate all the time.
[47:20] He was present for it and it was modeled to him for, it was like five weeks in a row.
[47:25] Yeah.
[47:26] And then on the last day, I had to come back home early for work.
[47:30] And so on my last day down at the beach house, it was raining.
[47:33] It was the first time it rained in five weeks.
[47:35] And I was so shattered about it.
[47:38] And I kept saying, I can't believe my last day it's raining.
[47:40] I don't get to go to the beach with you guys.
[47:41] I'm so sad.
[47:43] And I was sitting next to Benji and he said, hi, Daddy.
[47:47] And I said, yes.
[47:48] This is what I'd complained about the weather.
[47:50] And he said, it's raining, it's pouring, the old man is snoring.
[47:55] but he's happy because his water tank is full.
[48:01] Wow.
[48:02] I said, a bigger bun.
[48:04] That is not how it goes.
[48:08] We do things right in this house.
[48:10] No, I said, say that again.
[48:11] He said, you heard me.
[48:13] Oh, my God.
[48:14] That's great.
[48:14] You're amazing.
[48:15] Just like the most profound, deeply profound moment in gratitude.
[48:20] Yeah.
[48:20] I couldn't quite believe it.
[48:21] That's unbelievable.
[48:23] He's been noticing.
[48:24] We really kind of paying attention to that.
[48:27] Yeah.
[48:27] I mean, that was the ultimate gratitude saying.
[48:30] Absolutely.
[48:32] And this is, you know, really kind of when we're looking at gratitude, this is a fundamental aspect of other people matter, you know.
[48:39] The expression of gratitude, the experience of feeling grateful, so it's bidirectional, right?
[48:44] So it's for the receiver but also for the person that's giving, like, you know, saying the gratitude.
[48:50] So it's an absolutely fundamental part to other people matter.
[48:54] It's such a, I mean, for me, it's the impact it's had on me in the small amount I know about it is for so long, it's so easy to get caught up in your own stuff or your own like work or, you know, how you're acting at a certain place or wanting, you know, wanting to impress people or wanting to get praise for certain things at work or at home or whatever.
[49:19] but that is something that you often can't control, how people will feel about you, how people will feel about what you do.
[49:26] But the thing that sort of helped me realign how I look at everything is with other people matter is thinking about it in terms of
[49:37] how can I, instead of focusing on how I am loved, focus on how I can be loving to other people, especially with Jam, especially in my relationship.
[49:47] And it's in this sort of constant struggle that I have with prioritising my relationship more than I prioritise my work because I now know that...
[49:58] if I have a good relationship, everything else will be better.
[50:01] But that has to be the, for me, from what I know of this other people matter, and that has to be the first domino to fall.
[50:09] Like I feel like if you've, and maybe not your relationship, maybe like your friends or your family or all of them, but for me it's really helped to kind of keep reminding myself, focus on other people, focus on my relationships and like prioritize that
[50:25] try and show people how much I love them rather than just assuming that they know.
[50:30] I think that that's been a really big change.
[50:32] That's so spot on is the assumption that they know.
[50:35] Yeah.
[50:36] Yeah.
[50:36] Because, well, for me, my whole upbringing is that I was very lucky in my family is that I knew that my parents loved me.
[50:45] I assumed that they did.
[50:46] They didn't need to do outlandish things to show me.
[50:51] I didn't need to do outlandish things to show.
[50:52] It was just this assumed thing that I was loved and supported and so, so lucky that I got dropped into that house.
[51:02] But a lot of people don't have that.
[51:05] But so for me, because I had that,
[51:10] I've sort of grown up with the assumption that I don't need to show love because it's assumed.
[51:17] That's been a big thing with Jam and I is that I often don't.
[51:23] do, I don't organize things or think about ways in which I can prove to Jam or show Jam that I love her because I just think, well, you know, I love you.
[51:32] So I don't, why do I need to organize a big special day?
[51:35] Because you know, I love you.
[51:37] Why do you need that?
[51:39] But she, because she's all about ceremony and she loves events and she does so much for me and organizes so many things to show me how she loves me.
[51:49] But it's just not in my, my default position is not to do that.
[51:53] So I've had to, I have to now work really hard to keep reminding myself that that is important.
[51:59] It's important to show her that I love her and to show my family that I love them.
[52:04] And because if I don't consciously choose to do it, I just won't do it.
[52:09] But I know now, I know intellectually that it's so important.
[52:12] And by doing that, it will ultimately make me a happier person.
[52:17] Oh, I think that's wonderful.
[52:19] Yeah.
[52:19] And there's two really important parts and that is, you know, really undermining this assumption and I do want to acknowledge, you know, that that
[52:29] that the assumption that I'm loved is, you know, is such a wonderful thing really, you know, to, to be in a family, to know implicitly without the words being spoken that I'm loved.
[52:37] Yeah.
[52:38] Unbelievable.
[52:38] You know, that's pretty amazing.
[52:40] Um, but when we step outside of the family too, we can also see where, um, we need to, to work with that assumption around even like friendships.
[52:48] So, you know, our friends come from different families.
[52:51] Um.
[52:51] Our friends come from different or have different attachment styles, different personal histories where they don't know that I love them.
[53:00] So, you know, we can even see how that moves into friendships too around showing up to other people to show that we love them.
[53:07] You know, being able to be explicit about my love for my friends or the people that are outside of that family of origin where maybe it's not necessary to be so explicit.
[53:18] And another thing I'll say on it is the person in my life who has done this the entire time I've known him is Hamish.
[53:30] Hamish is incredible.
[53:31] You would know this, Hugh, but...
[53:32] He's a love bandit.
[53:33] He is a love bandit.
[53:35] He is...
[53:36] It is in his default.
[53:38] Yeah.
[53:41] But the way he shows love for his friends and family is unlike really anyone I've ever met.
[53:49] It's quite extraordinary.
[53:50] Yeah, it really is.
[53:51] The memories he creates for not only like his friends, but his kids and his wife.
[53:58] And it's quite extraordinary.
[54:02] And I can even hear in you saying that there's this kind of sense of feeling inspired.
[54:06] So much.
[54:07] And often I feel bad.
[54:09] Often I'm like, I'm a bad friend because I'm not doing as much as he is because he's always organizing incredible things and creating great memories and experiences for people.
[54:22] And he's done that for me for such a long time and so many of our friends.
[54:26] And it is very inspiring.
[54:28] And I think only recently now learning about Other People Matter do I realize how important that has been.
[54:35] and how powerful that actually has been.
[54:37] Just to get specific on the definition of other people matter, there seems to be multiple ways you can interpret that phrase as far as the other people connection and the connection with other people matter or the sheer fact that another person matters.
[54:51] I find that I...
[54:54] So I'm often questioning or thinking about why my general wellbeing has increased so much in the last few years from what it used to be.
[55:02] And I really think one of the key factors is that my epicenter of care and concern has sort of moved away from me to my children.
[55:13] And I think, and it's interesting hearing this, that just the sheer fact that I care more about them really than myself, it sounds like that's going to have a general increase in wellbeing.
[55:26] Because it certainly has been the experience for me personally, but it sounds like it sort of maps onto the research.
[55:32] Oh, absolutely.
[55:33] And so the way in which, you know, you're reaching out, you know, outwards to shop, to care for your family, for example.
[55:38] Yeah.
[55:39] Yeah.
[55:39] Has increased my wellbeing.
[55:41] Yeah.
[55:41] And I think that's also really tied into meaning and purpose.
[55:45] Yeah, of course.
[55:46] And, you know, if we're looking again with a positive psychology lens, there are, this is broadly speaking, there is more to this than what I'm about to say, but there are these kind of two kinds of happiness or wellbeing, and one's hedonic happiness and one's eudaimonic happiness.
[56:03] And hedonic happiness comes from, you know, like the...
[56:07] the pleasurable experiences, you know, being able to experience, you know, a beautiful dinner or a beautiful view or, you know, like very like, and again, coming back to this like hedonistic kind of experience of pleasure.
[56:18] Things you do for yourself.
[56:20] Yeah, in some ways.
[56:20] And they certainly can be in relation to other people, definitely.
[56:24] But they're more transitory states.
[56:27] But eudaimonic happiness or eudaimonic approach to happiness is around meaning and purpose.
[56:35] Yeah.
[56:36] And we actually kind of know to have like a more broad experience of wellbeing, resilience, enjoyment, life satisfaction that we need to address both of those parts of our lives.
[56:49] Would it be, as an example...
[56:53] of the different versions of that would one be going out for a really nice meal with friends versus inviting friends over and making a really nice meal for people, like kind of giving people an experience?
[57:06] Yeah, that could be in.
[57:08] That would be a eudaimonic.
[57:13] The interesting thing about, I won't go too much into this because there's quite a lot of stuff in here, but the interesting thing about eudaimonia, which is not about pleasure, and that is so relevant for parenting and I'm sorry if this is excluding people that are not parents, but when we think about raising children, there's often big increase in eudaimonia in raising children, but it's not necessarily moments of happiness.
[57:41] Yeah, okay.
[57:42] So there's a hard work in the raising of the children or being with the children.
[57:47] And in those moments, you may not say that I'm feeling really, really happy, but there's a big connection there to meaning and purpose, which in the longer term really leads us down this pathway of having a life that is worth living.
[58:02] Does that make sense?
[58:03] Yeah, it does because I reckon a lot of parents, if you called them at the time, they'd go like, I'm having the worst fucking day ever.
[58:08] But for me, I have more extreme moments of like, this is so overwhelming, I can't handle it.
[58:15] But my overwhelming sense of happiness is infinitely greater than it was five years ago.
[58:22] Is that kind of, for a non-parent example, is that kind of like if you go through any sort of really, really tough project that in the moment is like this is so hard but then you remember it fondly still?
[58:35] Yeah, I imagine people who are like,
[58:37] When there's like, for some reason I've got this image in my head of like an architect or something, but like people who are working really hard on a project together and they're doing like heaps of really late nights and working really hard, probably are complaining a lot, but there'd be, I feel like when you're on that momentum and you're achieving stuff, there's also this kind of feeling of really good feeling that comes along with it, even if you're very stressed throughout it.
[59:00] Absolutely.
[59:00] And this is about kind of this, again, this cultivation of a rich and meaningful life,
[59:06] as opposed and distinct from the pursuit of happiness.
[59:11] Because like I mentioned before, it is only a state, a transitory state.
[59:15] And if we're chasing happiness constantly, that comes at a huge cost.
[59:21] From a therapeutic point of view, if we are so averse to the other side of happiness, so like all of the unpleasant emotions, if we can't be with those emotions, that's hugely problematic.
[59:33] So the pursuit, and there's a great book by Russ Harris called The Happiness Trap, which really kind of will go into detail around the problems and traps of only wanting to feel this one emotion.
[59:48] And positive psychology is not about that.
[59:51] It's really kind of a much more broad concept around how do we promote flourishing, vitality, connection, all of those sorts of things.
[59:59] Wow.
[1:00:00] Wow.
[1:00:00] There's one other kind of aspect I just really wanted to kind of bring in towards the end, which is actually something that Brene Brown talks about.
[1:00:07] She talks about it in the last podcast she did.
[1:00:11] I think it might have been at the end of last year, maybe.
[1:00:13] And it was really around a question of, do you think people in general are doing the best they can?
[1:00:21] And it got me, and in this episode, I'd encourage people to have listened.
[1:00:24] It's really great.
[1:00:25] And she's such a good storyteller.
[1:00:28] But it's really bringing into question, you know, whether we believe that people are doing the best they can and how that kind of the answer to that impacts upon your sense of wellbeing.
[1:00:40] So, for example, like if we kind of think about this capacity to see the good in people,
[1:00:47] So if we can see that someone may have done something that's, you know, maybe not okay for us, you know, that can feel obviously really aversive and it can trigger us to feel, you know, very angry and resentful and bitter and a whole lot of sorts of things.
[1:01:04] But if we have this capacity to stand back and to really question like, oh, what might be going on for them, maybe this is the best that they are doing.
[1:01:13] Maybe this is the best that they can do at the moment.
[1:01:16] Mm-hmm.
[1:01:17] Is there some change for us in holding that view of humanity as opposed to the view that they're not doing the best they can?
[1:01:28] I have a wonderful example from this.
[1:01:30] I'm so happy to mention this person.
[1:01:32] He doesn't listen to our podcast.
[1:01:33] There's no way of his name's Chris.
[1:01:34] I played cricket with him for a long time, Chris Grant.
[1:01:36] Yeah.
[1:01:37] And he once, we're playing against the side, and there was a guy who had been batting for quite a while, trying his hardest, and after a while people getting frustrated, so someone sledged him.
[1:01:49] And Chris, who's on our team, who he was on the same team as the person sledging, he went, Oi, never have a crack at a bloke having a crack.
[1:02:01] What a wonderful saying for life Never had a crack at someone having a crack The thing I think about And I'm sure it's like chicken and the egg thing With a lot of stuff actually But I feel like when I'm having a bad day And someone wrongs me In the word of commas Like traffic or whatever I don't
[1:02:21] see that and I automatically go to worst possible interpretation of the behaviour.
[1:02:26] But if I'm in a really good place and things are going well, I'm much quicker and much easier to grasp, oh, they're not a bad person.
[1:02:33] They're doing the best they can on this day.
[1:02:36] And I find that the fact that if you can hold on to that perspective would change your wellbeing made so much sense to me because I feel like I can view it from the other angle that I can only access those states depending on what day I'm having.
[1:02:49] Yeah.
[1:02:50] So it's mood dependent or state dependent.
[1:02:52] Yeah.
[1:02:52] Whether I can, and I can sort of get there, but it's the immediate reaction to someone's behavior.
[1:02:59] Yeah.
[1:02:59] It's more, it's a much more effortful state.
[1:03:02] To be like, they're just doing their best.
[1:03:03] Yeah.
[1:03:04] The best they can.
[1:03:04] Yeah.
[1:03:05] And I'm not saying, I really want to be clear that I'm not saying that we want to be excusing behaviour and I'm not saying that we want to have no boundaries, because I think that's really important, but can we compassionately hold boundaries?
[1:03:15] Of course.
[1:03:17] But just kind of looking at the cost of always thinking, like people can be doing better.
[1:03:21] Like, you know, what's the cost for you if you always think like that person's not trying hard enough or like they could have done better on that?
[1:03:28] You know, what often happens, and Brene Brown talks about this, is that the people that unequivocally believe that people are not doing the best they can, is tied so significantly to perfectionism.
[1:03:42] So, those people that will be more judgmental of others.
[1:03:47] are equally really very judgmental of their own performance too.
[1:03:50] Oh, interesting.
[1:03:51] Yeah, that makes sense.
[1:03:52] So, and the people that believe kind of more generally and in a reflective kind of way that people are generally doing the best they can are less likely to be perfectionistic.
[1:04:03] Mm-hmm.
[1:04:06] there's no point in me explaining this but I think maybe something worth putting in the show notes is a speech by David Foster Wallace called I think it's called This Is Water and I think it's the first time I heard it it made me cry and I probably would if I listened to it again but it's this amazing speech that I think is very relevant to what we're talking about but I'm not sure if it's worth me even explaining it because I'll butcher it but it's very much about what you're talking about We'll try and find a link to it maybe
[1:04:33] Yeah, there's heaps online.
[1:04:34] I think it's been animated and turned into many things.
[1:04:37] It'd be good content if we could get you crying.
[1:04:39] Yeah, okay.
[1:04:40] That'd be great, actually.
[1:04:41] All right, I'll do the speech.
[1:04:42] I'll read it.
[1:04:42] Just do a pick-up.
[1:04:44] Yeah.
[1:04:44] Just on that, is that, and I don't want to mean to be like the Alfred Adler fanboy, but the other thing he says is to have confidence in people.
[1:04:56] That sounds like similar to the idea of sort of assuming people are doing the best they can.
[1:05:01] Yeah, it's like assuming the good in people.
[1:05:03] Yes.
[1:05:04] And so seeing, like seeing the good in people.
[1:05:06] I think Ben Crow talked about this briefly in one of his episodes this year.
[1:05:11] Anyway, I think he did.
[1:05:12] And so the thing is, we have a choice around that.
[1:05:15] We really do.
[1:05:16] And I know it takes some intentional action here, but we have a choice around how, like what we see in people.
[1:05:24] Being wise about it, of course, but we have this choice.
[1:05:27] And if we choose to see the good in people, there is an implicit effect that that has on our sense of well-being and belief in humanity too.
[1:05:37] I feel like it does make a massive difference when you – because often when you see someone, you know that experience of –
[1:05:44] I don't know if this is the same, but it reminds me of it.
[1:05:46] When you walk past someone or you see someone somewhere and they look grumpy or angry and you make a judgment based on how their face is and their body is that, oh, they're an angry person.
[1:05:58] And then for whatever reason, you might like smile at them or test them and see if you can get them to smile.
[1:06:06] And then they'll completely change and become like this very, kind of give you this very happy smile like, oh, morning.
[1:06:12] And I'm like, oh, wow, he's that guy.
[1:06:15] I could have written that guy off as this angry person who I have nothing.
[1:06:19] I cannot connect with that guy.
[1:06:22] But then I just gave him a little smile.
[1:06:24] And then I maybe trusted that he would smile back or hope that he would smile back.
[1:06:29] And then he did.
[1:06:31] And so I think they're the moments where it kind of does remind me that, oh, yeah, he's just a guy trying to get through the day.
[1:06:38] Yeah.
[1:06:38] You know?
[1:06:39] Yeah.
[1:06:40] And isn't it so interesting that you remember that?
[1:06:42] Yeah.
[1:06:42] Like there's that moment there of connection and it's been kind of embedded in your experience of people.
[1:06:50] Yep.
[1:06:50] Definitely.
[1:06:51] Sorry, Hugh, you were going to say something?
[1:06:53] No, I'm glad you said it then because I was just going to say, I think we should go over the key points from today.
[1:06:57] So I think there was like three or four sort of main points.
[1:07:00] Yeah.
[1:07:01] Look, and there are lots, there's a lot more to this, I really want to be clear.
[1:07:05] And this is just like a snippet to understanding this, this kind of principle of other people matter.
[1:07:11] And so the things that we've spoken about is celebration.
[1:07:14] So really being able to show up to other people's celebrations, but also your own and maybe thinking about.
[1:07:21] You know, like even kind of physical touch and how you show up in that space.
[1:07:27] We've spoken about the family meal and rituals around kind of connection and togetherness.
[1:07:32] And that family meal obviously doesn't need to be taken literally in family.
[1:07:36] It could be work or it could be any sort of group.
[1:07:39] Absolutely.
[1:07:39] You know, any kind of moment where we're really pausing to be with each other.
[1:07:43] Yeah.
[1:07:43] Nice.
[1:07:44] Nice.
[1:07:45] And kind of implicit or a part of that is, you know, the experience of gratitude.
[1:07:50] And obviously that's a really big topic, which we haven't really gone into today.
[1:07:53] And then I guess the last thing was really around kind of this meaning and purpose discussion.
[1:07:58] But that it's always the meaning and purpose in some ways is always really connected to how we're relating to other people.
[1:08:04] Other people.
[1:08:04] Yeah.
[1:08:05] That matter?
[1:08:06] Yep.
[1:08:06] Yep.
[1:08:07] Yep.
[1:08:07] Yep.
[1:08:07] Yep.
[1:08:07] Yep.
[1:08:07] Yep.
[1:08:08] Yep.
[1:08:08] Yep.
[1:08:08] Yep.
[1:08:08] Yeah, seeing the good in other people.
[1:08:10] Yeah, believing people are trying their hardest.
[1:08:12] Yeah.
[1:08:13] It's a really nice way to...
[1:08:17] Yeah.
[1:08:18] I can think of a few examples of when I felt disappointed by someone, something they've done, and then if you think they're trying the hardest, yeah, that's great.
[1:08:27] Good on them.
[1:08:28] Yeah.
[1:08:28] And again, you know, I want to be clear with that last point that it's not about excusing unhealthy or bad behavior.
[1:08:35] Yeah, absolutely.
[1:08:36] But around, you know, how we relate to that experience whilst being able to put in kind of boundaries around that too.
[1:08:43] Yeah, that's true.
[1:08:44] There is just one very last thing.
[1:08:45] And I feel like it really exemplifies exactly what we've been talking about today.
[1:08:48] A little bit of a bonus moment.
[1:08:50] Exactly.
[1:08:51] Unexpected.
[1:08:52] Yeah.
[1:08:54] There was a, or there is a hospice chaplain called Kerry Egan, and she's written a book, and she reflects upon her time in going into hospices, working with the dying.
[1:09:07] And she talks in there about the fact that although she's a chaplain, very few people are wanting to talk about God in their dying moments.
[1:09:15] They're not asking for spiritual guidance in those moments.
[1:09:18] She reflects that what we talk about are relationships and what we talk about are families.
[1:09:26] And so at the end of the day, from birth to death, according to Chris Peterson, other people matter.
[1:09:33] Mic drop.
[1:09:34] I'm glad you did that finish.
[1:09:37] Goodbye.
[1:09:39] Thanks for joining us, everyone.
[1:09:40] Thank you, Dr. Em.
[1:09:41] Oh, it's a pleasure.
[1:09:43] Amazing.
[1:09:43] Ciao.
[1:09:43] Ciao.
[1:09:46] The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh Van Kylenberg, Ryan Shelton and Josh Van Kylenberg.
[1:09:51] Our executive producer is Bridget North East.
[1:09:53] This episode was filmed by Andy Poole and edited by Jamison Moore.

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