# Danielle Laidley PART 1 - Her Private Struggle

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 30 Mar 2025, 1 h 49 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/vacqf6kai0alxh6tsb3zjc1h.mp3

Danielle May Laidley was known by a different name for the first 53 years of her life. We are so proud that this episode is a contributing factor to her reclaiming her narrative as a transgender woman. An extremely talented AFL footballer, Danielle would go on to become a highly respected coach, always keeping within arm’s reach the version of herself which felt most authentic. Danielle’s story, in its entirety, is so incredibly important that we had to split it over two big and special episodes. In this first part, we are introduced to phase 1 of her life: the footballer, the husband and the coach and with an addictive personality that caused her to become tough, fierce and obsessed with footy. Danielle discusses with Hugh, Ryan, and Josh the strict compartmentalisation of the different parts of her life during her AFL career, and the terrifying risks she took to satisfy the cravings to be her authentic self. You can watch the entire interview (Part One and Part Two) on YouTube, here – https://bit.ly/3FJ8Lw2 🫖 Other Imperfects episodes mentioned in this episode • Mick Fanning - Riding The Waves of Loss - https://apple.co/4hNT0RN 📖 Things to read • Don’t Look Away - Danielle Laidley - https://bit.ly/3XrTkyo 📺 Things to watch • Revealed - Danielle Laidley: Two Tribes - https://bit.ly/3R8X6ct 🖼️ If you want to join out patreon A Little More Imperfects, go to www.patreon.com/theimperfects ☎ If you need support after listening to this episode, these are a few great places to start: • QLife - 1800 184 527 • Rainbow Door - 1800 729 367 The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

## Transcript

[0:00] This episode of The Imperfects features a conversation that references gender dysphoria, addiction and suicide attempts.
[0:06] If these are topics you don't think you can engage with right now, we recommend skipping for the moment.
[0:10] But please do come back when you feel ready.
[0:14] Because you're good at football, you're put on a pedestal.
[0:16] Whether you're a good, bad or indifferent person...
[0:20] And now walking on the other side of the tracks, as a transgender person, a proud transgender person, we're seen as mentally ill, unstable, predators, the list goes on.
[0:35] We're all imperfect, and on this podcast, I'll be chatting with a variety of interesting people who are willing to make themselves vulnerable by sharing their own struggles and imperfections.
[0:46] I'm Hugh Van Kylenberg from The Resilience Project.
[0:48] And I'm Ryan Shelton from My Mum.
[0:50] And I'm Josh from Hugh's Mum.
[0:53] And this is The Imperfects.
[0:56] Wow.
[0:58] Another big one.
[1:00] Another big app.
[1:02] Huge app.
[1:03] And we will talk about Danielle lately in a second because one of my all-time favourite conversations, one that we will never, ever forget.
[1:12] It is the last time we'll be, today is the last day we'll be in this studio.
[1:19] Are we recording this?
[1:19] Yeah.
[1:20] Oh, it is.
[1:20] This is the last thing we're recording in this studio.
[1:22] I didn't even realise that.
[1:23] Of course.
[1:24] We're moving out.
[1:25] Yeah.
[1:26] Which... We're moving to a different studio.
[1:28] Yeah.
[1:29] Everyone loves moving.
[1:30] It's fun.
[1:32] Yeah.
[1:33] What we're moving into will be so good, but the next few days and week, I'm a little stressed about lying in bed thinking about it.
[1:40] The reason we're moving is because, well, two reasons, I guess.
[1:43] One, because the Resilience Project, who we share a building with, you guys are moving here because you've outgrown the space and we're going to tag along.
[1:54] Because it's fun.
[1:55] Because it's fun.
[1:55] And also we're kind of outgrowing this space as well.
[1:58] Yeah, absolutely.
[1:59] And we often say that this studio room that we're shooting in is just about a metre too short on either side.
[2:05] And so we've built a studio that is a little bit a metre longer on each side.
[2:08] It's going to be so good finally.
[2:10] Living the dream.
[2:12] But we started, the first episode of this podcast was recorded in this room in a different, in the corner, and it's evolved and grown a lot more professional in the way we've approached it with gear and all that kind of stuff.
[2:24] But I think there's only ever been two episodes that weren't recorded in this room.
[2:29] Gina Chick and Esther Perel.
[2:31] Esther Perel.
[2:32] And Jack Watts.
[2:33] And Jack Watts.
[2:34] And Georgia Gardner.
[2:35] Okay, it's less impressive now.
[2:37] Four is pretty good out of however many, yeah.
[2:39] Nearly 200 episodes in this room.
[2:41] And I've worked in this specific room for 10 years, so it's going to be sad.
[2:45] But there is one item that has been quite contentious.
[2:49] Yeah.
[2:51] In doing the move, there is one thing, Hugh, do you want to explain?
[2:55] Well, the big question is what do we do with the painting?
[2:58] Might need more context than that.
[2:59] Well...
[3:01] There's a dead lizard.
[3:02] Again, more back further.
[3:06] Yeah.
[3:07] Actually, you're given the punchline before you get in the setup.
[3:09] Okay.
[3:10] Well, so we ended a dead lizard.
[3:11] How do we get there?
[3:13] First episode this season, I brought up the fact that there was something haunting my front room at home, our front room.
[3:20] I felt like I was being swooped at night.
[3:22] I saw a strange thing hanging from a curtain.
[3:24] Well, let's call it what it is, a ghost.
[3:26] Yes.
[3:26] Let's call it not.
[3:28] Josh doesn't believe in things he hasn't seen with his own eyes.
[3:31] That's not true.
[3:33] I didn't.
[3:35] I just don't stretch to ghosts.
[3:37] I didn't believe in ghosts until I moved into this house.
[3:40] And ever since I've been, every night I go to bed, I'm so scared of what's going to happen.
[3:44] And I did sort of talk about this a little bit in the opening episode and then we decided to just put it into the Patreon because no one comes here for ghost stories really.
[3:51] Oh yeah, if you want like the long version and incredible version of the ghost story that Hugh tells and we talk about, it's on the Patreon.
[4:02] What is it?
[4:03] Patreon.com forward slash The Imperfects.
[4:05] I think so.
[4:05] Actually, don't ask me.
[4:06] I have no idea.
[4:07] It's our brand new community, which we absolutely love.
[4:09] Yeah, and so I took the story to Patreon and it's really intense and it's actually quite scary at times.
[4:15] So very quickly, we were put in touch with a shamanic healer, a guy who would come out to our house and he would find the ghost, talk to it and tell it that it's no longer welcome.
[4:24] Just in the yellow pages.
[4:26] Yep.
[4:28] That's about a 45-minute story, which you can find on Patreon, but...
[4:31] One of the things he said was, he said, that bit of artwork has to go.
[4:34] He said, that is quite confronting.
[4:35] That's quite, it gives me chills when I look at it.
[4:37] It's that could be the portal by which it came.
[4:41] He didn't say it's the portal, but he said that is, that is bringing energy, which is encouraging the ghost.
[4:45] He said it's, and I sort of thought that's ridiculous.
[4:48] That can't be a thing.
[4:49] But then everything else he said along with it, everything made sense.
[4:53] He knew so much about our lives through what apparently the ghost told him.
[4:56] And so I thought, right, we'll take this.
[4:58] I'll put it in the garage.
[4:59] I'm putting it in the garage for now.
[5:01] At home.
[5:02] At home.
[5:02] It was on not quite a 45-degree angle from the floor to the wall, a bit less than that, maybe like 30 degrees or something.
[5:11] And I was lying on the floor doing meditation in the dark and I heard like a bang, like something crash.
[5:18] And I just assumed it was one of the kids.
[5:20] But it's five in the morning so no one's up.
[5:22] And then I turned the light on after doing the meditation with my eyes and the painting was just like lying flat on the ground.
[5:29] No wind.
[5:30] So it had somehow gone from 45 degrees one side and flipped all the way to the other 45 and to the ground.
[5:35] Yeah.
[5:36] That is, I mean, investigate no further.
[5:40] Ghost.
[5:40] Yeah, why would you?
[5:41] So then I thought, okay, I don't want this in a garage with me in the dark while I'm doing meditation.
[5:46] I'll just take it to work.
[5:47] Yeah, great idea.
[5:48] Let's infect everyone else at work.
[5:49] I brought it in here and everyone except for Josh was absolutely horrified.
[5:53] Resilience Project staff would just get it out of here.
[5:56] Why did you bring it to work?
[5:57] I didn't know else to take it.
[5:59] I love that you also told us that it was at work after you'd just spent 45 minutes telling us this horrific ghost story.
[6:05] Oh, yeah, and here's the painting.
[6:07] It's just outside.
[6:08] Yeah.
[6:09] So, you know, if the podcast starts going a bit wrong, it's because I put the painting there.
[6:12] So we're moving office.
[6:13] Yeah.
[6:14] No, it's not why we're moving office.
[6:15] But in cleaning out, we were like, where are we going to put this office?
[6:18] And so the painting's been sitting here.
[6:19] Yes, we're sitting in storage in the garage at work here.
[6:23] And then the Resilience Project staff told us that we had the biggest infestation of ants we've ever had, the only infestation of ants we've ever had.
[6:29] Just in that little storage space there.
[6:30] For the first time.
[6:31] For the first time.
[6:32] Since putting the painting in there.
[6:33] Yes.
[6:33] And because we were moving out, I thought, well, I can just leave it in this building.
[6:37] I'm going to hang it up here, just outside the room here.
[6:40] Yeah, haunt the next people.
[6:42] Yeah, that'll be fine.
[6:43] And so I left it there over just one night, left it there.
[6:46] And Josh, you came in this morning.
[6:48] Bridge saw it after being very annoyed that the painting was hanging outside our door and then came in and very calmly, but also quite alarmed, she's cool under pressure, Bridge said, there's a dead lizard under the painting.
[6:59] I mean, get rid of it.
[7:02] So expensive.
[7:03] I don't want to get rid of it.
[7:04] You know what's expensive?
[7:05] Losing your business.
[7:12] Oh, we just wanted to save some money.
[7:13] We don't want to lose the painting.
[7:15] So, yeah, both businesses have since failed.
[7:20] But the painting's still there.
[7:22] Yeah.
[7:23] Okay.
[7:23] But what do you think now, Hughie?
[7:26] Well, Sarah, one of the girls who was in this project, said just leave it with me.
[7:29] She put it in her car.
[7:30] I don't know what she's planning on doing with it.
[7:32] I think she's just planning on taking it to the new office and putting it up.
[7:36] We are absolutely not having it in that building.
[7:39] Have you guys ever seen a lizard in this building before?
[7:40] Never.
[7:41] Never.
[7:42] No.
[7:42] Never.
[7:43] Not that I tell you about.
[7:45] But no, I've never seen a lizard.
[7:46] Why would a lizard be in here?
[7:48] It's a gecko.
[7:49] They're everywhere.
[7:50] In the city?
[7:51] In Melbourne.
[7:52] Yeah, we have them in our house in Preston.
[7:53] Yeah, but you're in the suburbs.
[7:54] Yeah, and on the day we're moving out, things are getting shuffled, boxes are getting pulled out.
[7:57] It probably just came out with a box.
[7:59] You've been here nine years, Josh.
[8:00] Yeah, but had to die.
[8:01] Have you seen a gecko in here before?
[8:02] I haven't seen a gecko.
[8:06] Case in point.
[8:07] Anyway, so if you want to hear the full story, it's terrifying.
[8:10] You'll go to Patreon and you'll – if I was to do it, I would type in Patreon in a web browser and then I would just download it, I think.
[8:20] Patreon.com slash The Imperfect.
[8:22] Yes.
[8:23] I get it.
[8:23] Yeah, but really awesome try here.
[8:24] You've been on the insert before.
[8:25] Yeah.
[8:27] It suddenly doesn't matter how website works.
[8:29] Anyway, so we need to get into Danielle Lydley's episode because it's just one of those things that I, as I said just before, I'm just so proud that they've had the conversation on the podcast.
[8:41] The reason, I mean, there are so many reasons this conversation is important.
[8:45] So many for us culturally in Australia right now, it's a really important chat.
[8:49] But I just to really sort of, I guess, reiterate that point, I just want to go over a couple of stats that I think are just really confronting, but I think we just have to mention them before we chat to Danielle.
[9:03] This is around the prevalence of suicidal thoughts and self-harm among LGBTQ plus Australians.
[9:09] And when it comes to the trans community, one in four trans people had thought about suicide in their lifetime, and two in five trans people had self-harm in their lifetime.
[9:20] Wow.
[9:21] Which to me is just a reflection of the world is just not accepting enough.
[9:27] It's not kind enough.
[9:29] It's not accommodating enough.
[9:31] It's just not accepting enough.
[9:32] And when you hear someone's story from the heart, like we're about to with Danielle,
[9:37] It really helps to build empathy and understanding towards people, whether it's trans or anyone, any minority group.
[9:45] But I think it's just a very important conversation to have for that very reason.
[9:52] Danielle talks about life as an AFL star.
[9:55] NFL premiership player, but then also talks about having this other person with her the whole way.
[10:05] This little Danielle she talks about who was, you can imagine, went to all types of things, knowing from the age five or six that this person, Danielle, was there, but having to hide that for 48 years.
[10:18] A big part of this chat is when she was diagnosed with gender dysphoria, which happened only in 2017.
[10:25] And it's something that she has had her entire life.
[10:27] So that was incredible to learn about there as well.
[10:31] Most of us know what it feels like to have a secret, like a big secret or a big thing that you can't share for whatever reason.
[10:39] But this is like on another level.
[10:43] Yeah.
[10:44] For a long time.
[10:45] There's an incredible love story in there with Donna, who was actually in the studio when we recorded the episode.
[10:52] There's the trauma associated with the experience of being outed publicly and in the most shockingly unfair way.
[11:03] But then there's also this incredible story of resilience in there as well that we think is such an important one and we really hope you enjoy.
[11:10] When we come back from the chat, we're just a couple of comments on what we learned from Danielle.
[11:23] This feels like a long time coming in the most exciting way.
[11:28] Well, for us, maybe it does.
[11:30] I'm not sure.
[11:30] Well, yes, no, I shouldn't speak on Danny's bath.
[11:33] But, yeah, for us, it feels like a long time coming.
[11:35] Yeah, yeah.
[11:36] I've just realised, I'm just looking down at my fingers.
[11:38] Do you remember when we had Jack Steele from the Inspired Unemployed?
[11:42] I wore my cap backwards to really try and... Oh, yeah.
[11:44] Yeah.
[11:44] I've just realised I've got my nails painted today.
[11:47] Oh, you sure do.
[11:48] I think for the first time in my life, I went to a hotel with my daughter on Friday and she bought nail polish and said, can I please paint?
[11:54] And I said, of course.
[11:54] But now I feel like I'm doing it just to try and impress you, Danny.
[11:58] And looking at the quality of them, I'm glad you said Elsie did them and not you.
[12:01] I think you need to come with me next week and we need to sort them out.
[12:06] I mean, no offence to Elsie.
[12:07] Sorry, if you're listening, Elsie.
[12:08] Well, she's only five, but that would be a great pleasure.
[12:10] I'd love to do that so much.
[12:12] We are joined by Daniel Ladley.
[12:14] What an incredible honour it is for us to have you here in the studio with us.
[12:18] Thank you.
[12:19] Thank you for joining us.
[12:20] Ah, thank you.
[12:21] I firstly just want to say the great job that you all do in letting people tell their stories like we will today with mine.
[12:34] I've always wondered what a cup of vulnerability would taste like.
[12:40] So today, hopefully, I can get a little taste of that.
[12:44] God, it's comforting to know that the branding is working.
[12:48] It's really getting out there, guys.
[12:49] I have to say, Donna and I listen to a lot of podcasts, and she introduced me to The Imperfects quite a while ago.
[12:56] Donna's your partner.
[12:58] Yes, and we listen to it regularly.
[13:01] I haven't caught up with Mick Fanning yet, but Donna has, and she says it's absolutely wonderful.
[13:07] Yeah, he's a pretty amazing guy.
[13:09] Yeah.
[13:10] It's so tempting to jump into the story right now of you and Donna.
[13:13] We won't.
[13:14] I know.
[13:14] My gosh, what a love story that is.
[13:16] And she's actually here in the room with us, which is very exciting.
[13:19] Yeah.
[13:20] Having just watched your documentary, it kind of felt like two celebrities have just walked in.
[13:24] It was like, oh, my God.
[13:25] Absolutely.
[13:26] They're the people from the film.
[13:27] Yeah, D-grade.
[13:29] D-grade.
[13:32] Well, I've just written a little bio for you here, which I'd just love to read, just for those people who maybe aren't as familiar with your story.
[13:41] So today we have the great privilege of sitting with someone whose story is as heartbreaking as it is inspiring.
[13:47] Danielle Lydley is a Premiership winning AFL player, a former coach and a fierce competitor.
[13:52] On the field, she was known for her toughness, her leadership and her relentless drive, but off the field, she was fighting a battle no one could see, a battle to be herself.
[14:01] For decades, Danielle carried a secret so heavy, it shaped every part of her life.
[14:06] She built a career at the highest level of football, whilst living in fear that if the world knew who she truly was, it would all be taken away.
[14:13] And when her truth was exposed, not on her own terms, but in the most devastating and public way, she faced a storm that would have broken most people.
[14:22] But instead of letting it destroy her, Danielle found the courage to rebuild.
[14:26] She chose honesty over fear, authenticity over shame.
[14:30] And in doing so, she has become so much more than a footballer or a coach.
[14:33] She has become a symbol of resilience, of transformation, and of the power that comes from finally stepping into who you truly are.
[14:41] Today, she is an author, an advocate, and a woman standing fully in her truth.
[14:46] And in telling her story, she's giving others the courage to live theirs, and she's
[14:50] So before we go back to your childhood, which I so want to do, I just would love to ask you how you feel, how you're feeling today in this moment?
[15:01] Where do we find you in our life right now?
[15:03] Um, listening to that, it, um, I get a bit of butterflies and a bit of that washing machine stomach cause it sort of just fleetingly takes me back to, uh, that tumultuous time.
[15:19] Um, and I, I used to sit in that a fair bit, but now I've sort of worked really hard and have great support, um, around me that I can really be present.
[15:29] Um.
[15:29] in my life, which is really good, but that doesn't still stop.
[15:34] Like we all have different issues that pop up, you know, at the, at the moment, you know, my health isn't that, that flash.
[15:43] But life's pretty good.
[15:44] I have to say.
[15:46] Beautiful.
[15:47] Are you comfortable talking about your health situation?
[15:49] Would you?
[15:49] I'm happy to talk about it.
[15:50] Yeah.
[15:51] Yeah.
[15:52] So what's happening now with your health at the moment?
[15:54] Um, but I started getting headaches, um, the back of around about October, I think it was last year.
[16:01] And so I went to the doctors and you have scans and CT scans and MRIs and all that sort of stuff.
[16:07] And they found a brain tumor in the bottom of my back of my skull on my, um, spinal cord.
[16:14] Wow.
[16:15] Um, so it's called a sub subpendomoma, um, which is a very rare, uh, tumor.
[16:22] So I can sit here today, um, and to use a quote from my surgeon, it's not going to kill me.
[16:29] Um, but being on my spinal cord, it has to come out.
[16:33] Um, it's sort of like walking around with a, you know, a stone in your shoe.
[16:38] Some days it really hurts and other days it's, it's okay.
[16:41] Mm.
[16:42] Just hearing that and I mean, when there's any sort of tumour or especially around the brain and the head, it's like, I mean, I get sort of flooded with like emotions and it's not me.
[16:52] It's just like hearing about someone else.
[16:54] But what about maybe when you first found out what it was or even now, what are the emotions that you're feeling?
[17:03] So when we had the scans and the MRIs, when we went back to the GP, it was as blunt as you have a brain tumour.
[17:12] His referral, off you go.
[17:16] And.
[17:18] Donna and I went really quiet and for Donna to be quiet, you've got to understand that something's not normal.
[17:31] And we drove back in the car and we didn't speak for quite a while.
[17:35] And at that point in time, like we didn't know what sort of brain tumour, when you say brain tumour, it like,
[17:44] It's like getting hit over the head with a sledgehammer.
[17:48] So we've, for about three weeks, you know, we're Googling it, you know, what is this thing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[17:55] And then it wasn't until we went to the surgeon that he allayed all our fears and said, yes, it's benign.
[18:01] We don't know much about them.
[18:03] They are very rare.
[18:04] Yeah.
[18:04] But I've operated on a lot of these around the world over the last 20 years.
[18:09] And he was amazing.
[18:10] We spent like nearly an hour in there going through every picture and explaining everything to us.
[18:17] So we walked out then thinking, well, it is a brain tumour, but we're going to be okay.
[18:27] Hmm.
[18:27] So that was a big relief, but it really knocked our socks off.
[18:33] It was a couple of weeks of being in the dark.
[18:36] Yep.
[18:37] Yeah.
[18:38] You know, and you start to think, okay, well, what do I need to do to start to wind everything up and that sort of stuff.
[18:44] So, yeah, that took its toll.
[18:49] So then to hear that was good.
[18:51] But then every now and again, I'll think, gee, I've got a brain tumour.
[18:56] Yeah.
[18:57] Which is the downside of it, but the upside is a great upside.
[19:02] It can be fixed and we can, you know, get on with our life.
[19:07] Hmm.
[19:08] Wow.
[19:10] Okay.
[19:10] Incredible.
[19:11] That's a – we've gone straight into the deep end, Danny.
[19:14] Yeah, and you know what?
[19:15] To be honest, it's the first time, you know, I've publicly said anything about it.
[19:20] But, you know, like on the weekend, I was supposed to be at the Dales for Chill Out Festival doing some work with diverse youth and just couldn't get out of bed.
[19:33] And, you know, I think it's probably time –
[19:36] You know, not to keep it private, but to put it out there like I've probably done with the rest of my, my life.
[19:43] Um, to let people know and understand that, um, you know, you can go through these things, um, but with the right care and empathy and team around you, you know, everything's going to be okay.
[19:55] Well, you are a picture of resilience, so if anyone can get through this, it is absolutely you and your team.
[19:59] Well, maybe you should have a look from this side.
[20:04] Sometimes I'm not too sure.
[20:05] Yeah.
[20:06] Okay.
[20:06] Yeah.
[20:07] It's not a bit of roses, but... Yeah.
[20:09] Yeah.
[20:09] Well, let's go back to your childhood and your early identity, I guess.
[20:15] You grew up in Perth, really, really good at cricket and footy.
[20:20] You've done your research.
[20:22] Yeah.
[20:26] I was excited to see that.
[20:28] I love cricket.
[20:28] I love cricket more than footy.
[20:30] Is it?
[20:30] Oh, wow.
[20:31] Yeah, I do.
[20:31] Still do?
[20:32] Oh, I still do.
[20:32] Just mad.
[20:33] Mad for it.
[20:35] I've seen a whole lot of photos of you playing footy and cricket.
[20:38] It looks like you're probably, I don't know, six, seven, eight years old.
[20:41] And I was curious from those photos to know, did anything feel different to you at that point in your life?
[20:48] Did you feel things weren't as maybe they appeared to the rest of the world?
[20:52] Yeah, it was like, um, it was like I lived in this bubble with no connection to the world.
[21:01] Um, and when I say that from like a people in relationship perspective, so mum and dad split up really early, myself and my brother were moving from.
[21:12] you know, parent to parent to grandparents.
[21:16] So I just felt disconnected.
[21:17] I didn't trust anyone because people were coming and going, you know, out of my life.
[21:24] And I just didn't really engage with people.
[21:27] I was a quiet, introverted kid, very intense kid and had...
[21:37] these feelings from probably five or six years of age at that.
[21:44] What were the feelings?
[21:45] Yeah, like looking in the mirror and not what I'm seeing is not what I'm feeling.
[21:51] And having these experiences, you know, like we were talking about nail polish earlier,
[22:00] You know, my mum had an Avon party for all the mature listeners out there that would remember those.
[22:05] Like other women come round and like try on makeup and...
[22:08] Yes, that's right.
[22:09] And the lady sells her wares.
[22:10] Oh, right.
[22:11] And then, you know, they'll have a breezer and say her biscuits with cheese on and...
[22:17] cocktail onions and stuff.
[22:19] Anyway, I was besotted by this woman and she had some nail polish and she was using it and showing her wares and it just struck me that I wanted that.
[22:35] So I ended up stealing it off the table once they had finished and done their orders and everything and ran out and painted my nail.
[22:42] And it was still hard to explain because,
[22:47] When you get to this place that you recognise just from that one slither of nail polish, there was a sense of peace and calmness.
[23:00] Wow.
[23:02] And so that was the first time.
[23:05] And there's thousands of other stories I can tell you through that period that,
[23:13] Can I just, so when you took the nail polish and painted your nail, did you know, I mean, obviously I'm assuming you knew that you weren't supposed to be using it because it was for the adults, but did you know also that you weren't quote unquote supposed to be using it because you were not a girl?
[23:34] Yeah.
[23:36] Well, people didn't see me as the way I felt.
[23:40] Yes.
[23:41] And...
[23:42] So I remember when I was in the bathroom and, you know, taking that pleasure for a minute or so and then thought, oh my God, A, I've stolen the nail polish.
[23:54] B, little people like me aren't supposed to be wearing nail polish.
[23:59] Mm-hmm.
[24:00] And then I thought, right, I've got to get it off.
[24:03] Um, but I had dried and I couldn't get it off.
[24:08] And then I was petrified of getting found out about stealing this nail polish.
[24:14] You know, why have you got nail polish on?
[24:16] Yeah.
[24:17] So I ran out the back, tried to put it under some water.
[24:21] That didn't work.
[24:22] So I got some sand and rocks and started to take it off and eventually got most of it off.
[24:28] I ran through the house and out the front of our house, don't forget this is the early seventies, big pampas grass for people who know what the pampas grass looks like.
[24:39] And I've just lobbed the nail polish into the pampas grass, never to be seen again.
[24:45] Um, and then it was like, but it was then like, I remember going in and just putting my hand under, you know, my, um, my legs.
[24:54] So no one could see it anyway until, um.
[24:58] Everyone had sort of left, yeah.
[25:01] You know, so there's lots of other stories like that.
[25:03] I remember for my ninth or tenth birthday, I had a party at my Nan and Pops.
[25:12] And again, the younger generation won't know what I'm probably talking about, but the fashion was for females to wear these clogs, like skulls they were called, which were wooden and had a leather strap.
[25:27] And I wanted them for my birthday.
[25:30] I suspect they're back in fashion, actually.
[25:31] Yeah.
[25:35] You know, and I remember wearing them at the party and feeling so cool.
[25:40] And all my friends didn't judge or anything.
[25:44] And, you know, I still remember, you know, I...
[25:48] I always had long hair and that was another attachment to without telling people or people knowing that that was my connection always to who I really was and not just having all these different episodes, if you like, of getting back to that space.
[26:10] So once I got there, it was like
[26:14] I needed to get back there as much as I could.
[26:18] And then when I couldn't in my early teenage years, um,
[26:24] It was a lot of depression and anxiety.
[26:28] And, you know, I actually stopped playing football and cricket, which I use sport as, you know, I had all the stuff going on my life, family life, but then I also had what was going on with, with me.
[26:45] And whenever I walked onto a cricket field or football field, all that would disappear.
[26:51] And I'd probably used that cricket early days, but certainly footy right up until, you know, I left the AFL as something to keep myself balanced, you know, so to speak.
[27:04] And then going through and peeling back the layers, all those things,
[27:10] times when I was trying to get back to, you know, being me was little Danielle.
[27:17] So there were times when, um, little Danielle was quiet, content and would go about her business and other days she would be roaring and wanting attention.
[27:29] Um, and you know, these are the emotions that I'm going through on a daily basis.
[27:35] Yeah.
[27:37] What does that do to your sense of, um, I guess shame for one of a better term?
[27:43] Is there, does that?
[27:44] Yeah.
[27:45] Shame, fear, embarrassment of, I had no idea what this was and why.
[27:53] What I do know is that I never pushed it away.
[27:58] I sort of just carried it with me to explore because I knew how it made me feel.
[28:07] There's no Google back in the seventies and eighties.
[28:10] So you can't find out any information and I probably wouldn't have even known what to look for.
[28:17] One of the first real times that I found something and read it and thought, oh my God, this is me.
[28:27] I remember stopping into a news agent on the way to training.
[28:32] I just got my license and.
[28:34] There was a book on the magazine rack and it was covered in plastic.
[28:38] So that sort of gives you an idea of what sort of magazine it was.
[28:43] And it had this gorgeous woman on the front cover.
[28:47] And it had transsexual, which was the language back then, transsexual woman.
[28:52] And I thought, what's that?
[28:55] What?
[28:56] Mmm.
[28:57] The first time you've seen that word.
[28:59] Yeah.
[28:59] Yeah.
[29:00] Anyway, I got my hands on the magazine, which happened to be, I can't remember exactly whether it was a penthouse or a Playboy.
[29:09] And I started to read this article about this woman and her real name was Carolyn Cossie.
[29:16] She told her story about growing up in the UK and being a transgender woman and I'm reading it thinking.
[29:25] Oh my God, this is me.
[29:30] And then as the story went on,
[29:34] she had just finished being one of the Bond girls in the latest movie.
[29:39] Um, and no one knew she was, I'll use the word again, trans, transsexual.
[29:44] And she was outed by the British media for being transsexual.
[29:51] Um, and that would come back to haunt me at a later state, um, you know, many, many years later with what happened to me.
[29:59] Um, but that was my first real
[30:03] education into what was going on.
[30:08] You're the first person I've ever met who I truly believe when they say they read Playboy for the articles.
[30:13] Yeah.
[30:14] Ah, that's good.
[30:17] I like that.
[30:18] Okay.
[30:22] Well, the pitches as well.
[30:24] There was a couple of good pitches.
[30:26] Closed, I will say.
[30:29] So, okay, so we've skipped forward in time a little bit to, I guess, your later teen years where you're drafted to play the West Coast Eagles.
[30:39] Mm-hmm.
[30:40] And I'm fascinated by that because you are entering a world where, I mean, footy, Aussie rules footy in the 80s, the 90s, in my mind is as blokey, masculine an environment that you could ever see or experience.
[30:58] And I'm interested to know how you felt, I mean, entering that world, I guess, with all the thoughts you're having about who am I really?
[31:10] Yeah, it was interesting.
[31:12] If we go back to when I was talking about a lot of depression and anxiety and I stopped playing football and cricket, I think it was a lot of fun.
[31:21] In year 10, I had an outdoor education teacher who had coached Swan Districts in the WAFL.
[31:29] And he happened to be a state selector for the state school boys in 1982.
[31:36] And he kept badgering me and said, you know, I want you to come and try it.
[31:41] I want you to come and try it.
[31:42] And I was just not interested in it.
[31:45] And that was sort of a real, really big fork in the road for me.
[31:49] So eventually I went down to the to the tryouts and then like eight weeks later, I'm in the best.
[31:56] Twenty five kids in the state thinking, oh, OK.
[32:00] So this is great.
[32:02] But what what still not knowing what this thing is, which we now know is little.
[32:11] And then from there, you know, I played in the carnival, played my local team.
[32:20] And then the next year I went to West Perth in 1983 and I played 19 games in the Colts under 18s.
[32:30] And the next year, just 17, and I'm playing league footy for West Perth in the WIFL, where the crowds were 15, 20,000, you know, back then.
[32:41] And I'm still at school.
[32:42] So Hugh, with the question that you asked about going into this blokey, testosterone-fueled environment.
[32:53] never saw it that way.
[32:55] Maybe I was oblivious to it.
[32:58] For me, it was an outlet to also be me.
[33:04] And there was another side of me over here.
[33:07] So I kept them quite separate.
[33:11] What I will say is, you know, I was never a fierce willing, um,
[33:19] going to the, you know, to the pub for the boys and going for a punt on a Saturday afternoon or it was like footy and then out.
[33:28] And then what manifests out of that is unsociable, aloof.
[33:36] Introverted.
[33:38] In terms of what people thought of you?
[33:40] Yeah.
[33:42] So this persona continues to grow and grow and grow.
[33:49] And that's when the disease of addiction first got hold of me, unbeknownst to me at that time.
[33:59] Um, because in the ladley side, um, disease of addiction has manifested right back to my great, great, great grandparents on the male side.
[34:11] Um, all alcoholics, um, right down to my dad.
[34:16] And, you know, they all died by suicide.
[34:19] Um, except, except for my, my dad who basically drank himself to death.
[34:24] Um, so there was this disease of addiction and I...
[34:28] had a very addictive personality in regard to little Danielle, but also the football world.
[34:37] So then what happens going back to that personality that manifests, it started there, you know, in the early 80s and then grew and grew and grew through my time.
[34:47] And then going to West Coast and North Melbourne as, you know, this fierce, tough, uncompromising footballer.
[34:58] The Junkyard Dog.
[34:59] The Junkyard Dog.
[35:01] Is your nickname.
[35:02] Yes.
[35:03] And like, I hated it.
[35:05] And I know it was a term of endearment really, but to me it wasn't because it was my brand or reputation that had developed was even further away from the person who I really was.
[35:22] Mm-hmm.
[35:23] And I wrestled with it and hated it.
[35:27] I think I only let one of my teammates call me a junkyard dog, which was Wayne Swass.
[35:36] And Wayne was going through his own, you know, issues at that time.
[35:42] You know, but now I'm happy for them to call me the junkyard bitch, so...
[35:48] Which is, which is a bit of a play on words, obviously.
[35:52] Yeah.
[35:55] So, so the disease of addiction manifested in me in a different way.
[35:57] I became a workaholic.
[36:00] I just put everything in to football.
[36:04] And then obviously family, very young and still had this sitting out here, not really knowing what was going on.
[36:12] So my life became quite compartmentalised.
[36:18] little Danielle's here and you've got this person who plays football and then you have family and then you have friends, then you have the AFL.
[36:29] And I had to be a different person to all of those things.
[36:35] So it was quite compartmentalised really.
[36:38] Yeah, for a long time, which which in itself carries a lot of weight.
[36:43] Did it feel like you were almost like playing characters?
[36:46] Yes.
[36:48] Yeah.
[36:49] In a sense.
[36:50] And at the time, I'd never thought about it that deeply.
[36:57] You know, that from a young age, that was just, that was my life.
[37:03] You talk about those different segmentations of yourself, really.
[37:09] Was there ever a fear or panic or worry that they might meet or blend?
[37:17] That was my biggest fear of my life that they would meet.
[37:22] I can remember at West Perth going to my boot after training with a particular player who I won't mention, opening my boot and there's some more of my stuff.
[37:34] And I was like, oh, that's my girlfriend's or, you know.
[37:38] Yeah.
[37:38] When you say your stuff, you mean like Danielle's clothes?
[37:40] Yeah.
[37:41] Yeah.
[37:41] Yeah.
[37:42] And then the panic in that situation.
[37:47] And then I remember going to the West Coast Eagles training one day and I went to get my jumper and the property manager goes, why have you got pink lips?
[37:58] And I've gone, oh, no.
[38:01] So I very quickly made up.
[38:03] I had a red icy pole or a red.
[38:06] Yeah.
[38:07] You know.
[38:08] Um, and so all those, you know, things like that, where they nearly crossed over.
[38:15] And there was a lot of that, I don't know if I'm jumping forward here, but you can't
[38:21] outrun gender dysphoria.
[38:23] So as you know, I got older, the worse, it, it got, I shouldn't say worse.
[38:31] The louder maybe?
[38:32] The louder.
[38:33] Yeah.
[38:34] Um, to deal with it on a daily, on a daily basis.
[38:37] So it was like, so I'm coaching North Melbourne at the time and I'm taking off to the U S at the end of the season.
[38:48] And that was Denny Owl's time.
[38:50] Um.
[38:52] And in between going to watch NFL games, cause I'm a great American football fan.
[39:00] And then spending time as Danielle, but still living in fear.
[39:04] I remember being out one night and I heard an Australian voice and it was like, just, just panic and just get out of there.
[39:15] But over the years.
[39:17] I grew up enough confidence to start to do it in back home in Australia, particularly Sydney, as it was back then, less obvious AFL people and going out and spending, you know, four or five weekends a year in Sydney as the now.
[39:37] And then I got to the point where I wasn't coaching North at this point in time, but I was still in the AFL going out here in Melbourne.
[39:46] Now, the risk and reward for that is massive.
[39:50] But the want and the desire to get back to that spot, peaceful self, you know, was I remember sometimes I'd get home and think, right, I'm never doing that again.
[40:07] And the next day I'm going, okay, the calendar, when's my next calendar?
[40:12] Because you get to this point where you're spending time with yourself and, you know, I'll say growing my real identity in Danielle.
[40:25] And so you want to keep getting back there.
[40:29] And that's, in essence, what gender dysphoria is.
[40:33] Do you have a memory of the first time you stepped out as Danielle in Perth?
[40:40] Yeah, I went to the place called Subiaco Markets, which is now not, not there.
[40:46] And I would have been.
[40:50] 17 at the time.
[40:52] And it was quite a drive from where I lived to the Subiaco markets.
[40:56] I had to go through sort of the West Perth area and I remember pulling up at the lights and I looked across at the lights and there was a director of the West Perth football club at the lights opposite me and I'm thinking.
[41:13] He's found out.
[41:14] He's found out.
[41:15] He can recognize.
[41:15] He can see me.
[41:16] He can see me.
[41:18] So then for a lot of years, there wasn't many, by choice, opportunities to do that because of that fear, that shame, that connection that they will cross over.
[41:32] The way you, certainly back then, and I think unfortunately still today in some circles, but certainly I imagine it would have been prevailing thought that,
[41:45] Male characteristics are tough and hard and female characteristics are only nurturing and gentle and for want of a better word, soft.
[41:58] I wondered if you'd ever considered, and I could be completely wrong here,
[42:04] Was the way, because you were known as such a tough, hard footballer and how much you'd had the nicknames that came along with that.
[42:11] Was there any sense of the way that you were going about football, an attempt to outrun Danielle?
[42:19] Yeah, certainly.
[42:22] I remember that.
[42:24] playing for West Perth again, I actually haven't told this story for a long time.
[42:28] So there used to be the Sunday sessions in Perth from 4.30 to 7.30.
[42:33] We'd all go to the pub and see a band or whatever.
[42:37] And then we'd go to this place called Fitzgerald's in North Perth.
[42:43] And it was an amalgamation of all walks of life because it was the only bar that was open in Perth.
[42:52] Late on a Sunday?
[42:53] Late on a Sunday night, finished at about 11.
[42:56] And I remember being there with some football players and some, um, transgender girls walked in and I'm like, oh my God, the butterflies watching, um, them wanting to meet them, wanting to ask them questions.
[43:13] But the people that I'm with are just, you know,
[43:18] being nasty.
[43:19] And so that sort of, uh, the shame, the embarrassment, the fear then became very, very, very real because I'm hearing and seeing, um, what these people that I play with, um, their views on this type of person.
[43:38] Yeah.
[43:38] And I've always struggled with this, that, um,
[43:42] You know, just because we're good at something, and that being AFL football, I wouldn't say good, reasonable.
[43:52] It's interesting, since it's all been public, all of a sudden I've become a star of the AFL, where really I was just a shit kicker, you know.
[44:03] Really, you know.
[44:04] I don't know if an apprenticeship player shit kicker works, but yeah, there were definitely shit kickers.
[44:10] You were not one.
[44:12] Yeah.
[44:12] And because you're good at football, you're put on a pedestal, whether you're a good, bad or indifferent person.
[44:20] And now walking on the other side of the tracks as a transgender person, a proud transgender person, we're seen as mentally ill, unstable, predators.
[44:33] The list goes on.
[44:36] And again, there's good, bad and indifferent in the transgender community as well.
[44:40] You're either a good person or you're not.
[44:43] You should be judged for who you are and the person you are, not because of what you do.
[44:50] It just illustrates how important it was to you And how good it obviously felt to be To live as yourself, as Danielle
[45:01] And it's like I guess for so many people it would be like, oh, I don't know what would happen if people found out.
[45:08] Like that would be – because you'd read this article about this transgender woman in Playboy and was that potential outcome or that fear, was she coming into your thoughts?
[45:23] Was it a direct line between – I wouldn't say a direct line.
[45:29] What I will say is I always would think and play over and over in my mind
[45:39] When is this going to happen?
[45:42] Um, and for all the hundreds of thousands of scenarios I played out in my mind, um, the one that actually happened, I never thought of.
[45:55] Um, even reading, going back and reading that article after, but as soon as it all happened, like the article boom, come into my head, like, you know, who, who would have believed, um.
[46:08] And with the gender dysphoria, I remember going on the internet and doing...
[46:16] probably 50 different quizzes about, do you have gender dysphoria?
[46:23] You know, I try and find every single one and each one would come out differently.
[46:28] So it was even more confusing.
[46:31] But then as I started to get older, the, the, the noise, um, and little Danielle was, she wanted to live her life.
[46:42] Um.
[46:44] She wanted some attention and it started to affect my mental health, my physical health.
[46:53] And I, by that stage, I knew exactly what, what it was, but just couldn't tell anyone or not, not even, you know, I've had psychs and counselors and mentors as you know, when you're coaching and playing and.
[47:09] You know, I would go and see them all and talk about lots of different things, except for the one thing that I knew that, you know, when I was having a bad time or particularly when I was coaching, people would, again, if I go back to my earlier years and the unsociable, aloof, that type of thing that manifested when I was coaching, but it was more angry, volcanic.
[47:37] Um, and those are the behaviors that were coming out because of what was happening, you know, underneath.
[47:44] And it was very, very hard to, to control.
[47:47] You know, so even through all those years, it was still wrestling.
[47:54] Who am I really?
[47:57] You know?
[47:58] And then it wasn't until 2015, I thought, and I was going down the steep hill at that point in time.
[48:10] Um.
[48:11] And I'd made plans to leave the AFL and then end up getting fired by Brendan Bolton.
[48:19] So I really started to emotionally transition.
[48:25] Um, so I was living my life as me, except for, um, at my place of employment and in front of my children.
[48:35] So we haven't, we haven't mentioned this yet, which I think we probably need to before we jump into the next bit, if that's okay.
[48:40] But you're married from a young age and you have three kids as well.
[48:43] And so you are, so Danielle is...
[48:46] I think in your own words, you said really had to, I'm paraphrasing here, but really had to, so you kept the family together because that was very important.
[48:58] It was very hard for you to really be Danielle when you had the family as well.
[49:02] And that just had to sort of wait.
[49:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[49:05] One thing that I thought was because of my upbringing and my parents splitting up and that sort of stuff, I didn't want to have that happen to my kids.
[49:14] And it was certainly going to be when they were older, because we had the three of them, even though my youngest daughter is, you know, in her mid-twenties now.
[49:26] It was whatever was going to happen with me and, you know, I've got all this stuff going on, it would happen.
[49:38] after, you know, they've grown up, got through school or uni or whatever that, that looked like.
[49:44] With my then wife, it got to the point where we went through a few rough, um, stages, but you know, in our marriage, not, not particularly about, not, not about this at all.
[49:55] Um, and then, you know, I eventually, um, told her, so she knew from about 25 years ago.
[50:03] Oh, wow.
[50:05] I mean, in the documentary, I think one of the moments that really kind of illustrated how important...
[50:16] it was for you to keep this secret was when your wife found tissue with lipstick on it in the car and she as you would expect she assumed that it was another woman's and there was an affair going on and instead of um instead of telling her um
[50:38] no, no, no, there's no affair, I didn't cheat, and explain what was actually happening, you said, yeah, it is another woman's.
[50:48] What was then the fallout of that?
[50:51] Like what was the following events?
[50:54] A lot of work by myself to fix what was the perception of having happened.
[51:04] Because it's like I've never heard of a situation where you're lying about having the affair, like as opposed to trying to… Yeah, and that caused some grief in the marriage.
[51:18] And there's another story where there was a fingernail found on the front path walking.
[51:30] It goes to the front door.
[51:33] And she found it.
[51:36] So it took its toll, let's say.
[51:40] And that was quite difficult.
[51:43] And then, you know, this is in Perth, then moving to Melbourne, it was okay, these feelings are getting really strong.
[51:53] I love the family.
[51:56] I still love my wife at that point in time.
[52:00] But I couldn't go on, something had to break.
[52:03] And I eventually said it or did it or showed her, which I won't go into.
[52:11] And so at that point in time, it was seen as fun in the bedroom.
[52:21] And, um...
[52:23] Sorry, what do you mean by that?
[52:26] Oh, so me being Danielle.
[52:28] Ah, okay.
[52:28] And, and, and with my then wife.
[52:31] Gotcha.
[52:31] But not who you truly are.
[52:33] Uh, no.
[52:33] So it was more of saying, this is who I am, but not going into depth at this point in time.
[52:42] Yeah.
[52:42] It seemed more like role playing.
[52:44] Yep.
[52:44] Yep.
[52:45] It was a way to introduce, I suppose.
[52:49] And it was fun.
[52:50] And then when it got to a point of telling a bit more of the, you know, of the story, then it became, oh.
[53:00] I don't know about this.
[53:03] But even the day I got diagnosed, she was the first person that I rang.
[53:10] Were you together at that point?
[53:12] No.
[53:12] No, okay.
[53:13] No.
[53:14] And, you know, we said, well, we need to explain this to the kids, even though we were sort of, we were split up.
[53:24] And that meeting never occurred.
[53:26] And this is my fault.
[53:27] This is a massive problem.
[53:30] burden that I still carry.
[53:34] And we never got to talk about that.
[53:38] At that point in time, I've been diagnosed.
[53:43] I'm in active addiction and not being through a workaholic, through substance abuse and self-sabotaging.
[53:55] And so we never got to have that.
[53:57] So the kids found out basically when it was on the front page of the paper.
[54:02] Oh, God.
[54:03] It's, you know, go back to the magazine.
[54:07] Go back to the thousands of scenarios that, you know, I played.
[54:14] played out in my mind.
[54:16] It's the biggest mistake that I've made in my life.
[54:25] And it's a huge burden to carry.
[54:28] I still haven't forgiven myself.
[54:29] Sorry, are you talking about the fact you didn't get to talk?
[54:32] Okay.
[54:33] Yeah.
[54:34] Is there any space to forgive yourself for that when you think about what an incredibly difficult thing that is to actually do?
[54:43] I'm still working through that.
[54:46] I probably spent a lot of times putting myself in their shoes.
[54:52] So being their rock, their role model, what I did, a loving, doting parent that had great relationships with all of them, that's now gone.
[55:08] And, you know, will I ever get that back?
[55:11] You know, I'm unsure.
[55:13] That's, it's up to them.
[55:15] I know now I'm a much better rounded person because of who I am, you know, but it's still been massive.
[55:29] burden for them, seeding the paper.
[55:33] The narrative was unkind and, you know, they, I imagine, have gone through a grieving process.
[55:45] So I've never, the girls I've never seen, they've never seen me.
[55:54] Still to this day.
[55:55] Yep.
[55:56] Nice.
[55:56] Yep.
[55:58] And you know, that's...
[56:00] we talk about building up strategies and stuff like that.
[56:03] I've, you know, I, I still get, you know, a fair amount of depression these days.
[56:09] And it's mainly due to that.
[56:12] Looking back on that time of, you know, the mistakes that I made, getting caught up,
[56:20] in self-sabotaging through, because going back to when I said about the lady and the disease of addiction.
[56:28] So I always, my values in life were, I'm going to change the narrative for our family.
[56:39] So it was like just social drink, like no drugs.
[56:44] And, you know, when I left the AFL, when the stresses of the gender dysphoria came through, I would stick my head into the football to sort of counteract how I was feeling.
[56:56] But then once I left and that was gone.
[56:59] the disease of addiction manifested in a different way.
[57:02] And that was initially through gambling first, you know, on sport, got bored.
[57:08] So I stopped doing that.
[57:09] And then I turned to drink and hated hangovers.
[57:14] So that got wiped out.
[57:16] So all this happens is in a pretty quick sort of space of time because the active addiction was probably 18 months.
[57:25] And then at 48 years of age, got introduced to cocaine through a partner I was with at the time.
[57:34] And then that just went from...
[57:37] a Saturday night to a Friday night, Saturday night to a Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday night to every night.
[57:45] And then the shame and embarrassment of that was just as high as,
[57:52] the gender dysphoria, how all that's manifested and going back to the kids, that's still my biggest heartache and I can't get that back.
[58:06] All I can be is the best person I can be now and when they're ready,
[58:12] And there is some conversation, but it was horrific for our whole family, you know, and people have heard my story, but don't realize that the other side, the carnage that it's caused.
[58:25] And I have to take responsibility for that.
[58:30] I don't think you have to take, I mean, that responsibility isn't solely on you.
[58:36] If we, I think we're going to get to this, but the, I understand that you were
[58:43] It's as you said, and I totally get it as a parent myself, and I've got a lot of parenting still to go with two very little kids.
[58:54] But the idea of feeling in any way responsible for a situation where we're not.
[59:03] they're not in my life the way I'd love them to be.
[59:06] I understand there's a temptation or I understand why you want to take responsibility, especially given that you were fighting an addiction at the time as well.
[59:16] And so I'm sure your behavior wasn't what you wanted it to be, but also the nature in which, which I think we should get to, but the nature in the way it was revealed, that's not your fault.
[59:27] No, and so I can segment what was my responsibility and what things that I didn't have any control over.
[59:37] Yeah.
[59:38] So I've certainly come to terms with that.
[59:41] I'm sort of just looking at purely my actions and...
[59:46] in self-sabotaging, you know, and that, that self-sabotaging did also lead to an attempt to take my life twice.
[1:00:00] And so even that is embarrassing.
[1:00:02] But all I do know is that that point in time, I was at the lowest, you know, point.
[1:00:10] in my life, I'm thinking, how in the hell have I got here in just a very, very short space of time?
[1:00:22] And, you know, even now it is just social drinking and a desire to use or self-sabotage is,
[1:00:36] Hasn't since that time has never been on the radar again.
[1:00:41] So, you know, I have to put my hand on my heart and say, yes, I wasn't addict at that point.
[1:00:51] point in time is a lifelong addiction.
[1:00:54] I had the disease of addiction, which obviously manifests in so many different ways.
[1:01:00] But to go down that path again, I honestly think from the players that I played with and players that I coached and people in the AFL, the drug part, self-sabotage part there was more a surprise than Danielle.
[1:01:18] Really?
[1:01:18] Yeah.
[1:01:19] Wow.
[1:01:19] Yeah.
[1:01:20] Yeah.
[1:01:20] I remember, I think Anthony Stephens said that you were the last person you expected to have issues with alcohol and drugs.
[1:01:28] Yeah.
[1:01:28] And, and, and invariably, um,
[1:01:32] you know, other behaviours manifest out of that.
[1:01:37] The way that you describe work and work addiction, it sounds like maybe football or work was your drug for a long time.
[1:01:44] And I didn't realise that until obviously over the last five or six years of digging deep into all these mysteries and working out with my psych that,
[1:02:02] The disease of addiction got me at 15 or 16, but I didn't know, we didn't know.
[1:02:09] Um, and then, you know, that's what it was.
[1:02:12] And then you build this brand through a football career and little Danielle sitting out on the side and, um, then when that's not there, the disease of addiction manifests in a different way.
[1:02:25] Mm.
[1:02:26] And that's the tricky thing that seems with work addiction is that particularly in elite sports, I mean, a lot of jobs, but particularly in elite sports, it's like the like obsession or addiction to the sport is applauded and encouraged.
[1:02:42] And if you're someone who like, you know, eat, sleeps and, you know, everything football, then you are dedicated and anything less is not enough sometimes.
[1:02:54] Hmm.
[1:02:55] We've, we've sort of alluded to it and I hope you don't mind us asking the specifics, but I think for the people listening, it would be helpful to know exactly what this public outing was and how it happened.
[1:03:10] Yeah.
[1:03:11] So, um, so through this bad period, um, remember I said, you know, getting introduced to cocaine, 48 years of age, because I was in a relationship.
[1:03:24] and the drug use was elevating at that point in time.
[1:03:30] And I'd been on and off with this person for five or six years.
[1:03:35] And the being off was being unsure of who I was.
[1:03:43] The very first date that we went on, I told her,
[1:03:47] Because I thought if I ever get back into a relationship, that other person needs to know.
[1:03:54] Yeah.
[1:03:55] So I told her and she was supportive to a point.
[1:04:01] It was sort of mid-2018.
[1:04:04] I'd just been to America with my youngest daughter and I came back and thought, no, I
[1:04:11] I need to break this circuit of what's happening with the gender dysphoria, which still at that point I hadn't sought medical advice or intervention.
[1:04:24] And I knew if I was going to explore that, that the relationship couldn't go on.
[1:04:33] So we split up and then I went, that's when I went really badly down, downhill.
[1:04:40] back of 2018, 2019.
[1:04:43] And then I called her.
[1:04:45] I was reaching out for help.
[1:04:49] It was a cry for help.
[1:04:53] And anyway, we end up buying a property together.
[1:04:58] She was seeing someone.
[1:05:01] And she told me that she wasn't seeing him anymore.
[1:05:04] And I was thinking that we'll,
[1:05:07] there's a chance that we might rekindle what would have happened, which, you know, looking back now with clear eyes, it was never going to be the case.
[1:05:16] Anyway, we got into a property dispute through a lot of texting and emails.
[1:05:23] And so she went to the police.
[1:05:25] They put an intervention order on me, which I accepted.
[1:05:29] And then as soon as she moved into the apartment, she told me to get out of her life.
[1:05:35] She never wanted to see me again.
[1:05:37] And I found out that she was still seeing this other person.
[1:05:41] And that's from my point of view, and I'm sure she has her point of view.
[1:05:44] So I was going that bad.
[1:05:49] that I thought, right, I'm going there.
[1:05:51] Um, and I went to the apartment and like I was an emotional wreck.
[1:05:58] Um, and I rang the police and said, I've got breaking the intervention.
[1:06:05] What do you need to come and arrest me?
[1:06:07] Um, and within two, two minutes, um, they came and arrested me.
[1:06:14] So around to this was on a Saturday night around the St Kilda police station.
[1:06:18] Um, and I've walked in, I'm handcuffed, I'm not slept for probably 10 days.
[1:06:25] Um, I'm at a very low ebb in my life.
[1:06:32] Um, walked into St Cooter Police Station, there's probably...
[1:06:36] 12 to 14 police officers sort of in a semicircle, plain clothes and uniform, just laughing at me.
[1:06:48] And I felt like an animal in the zoo.
[1:06:52] So then they were coming in and out and there was a lot of laughing and carrying on and, you know, they had to search me, which they then didn't do a very good job because I had a little satchel in my bra, which I didn't even know was there, and they didn't search me properly and didn't find it.
[1:07:15] So then when I didn't get bail and went –
[1:07:19] to the custody center, I got searched again properly and then got charged with bringing a substance into a prison because they didn't do their job.
[1:07:29] So anyway, I got going back to the police station, I'm sitting there, I'm an absolute emotional wreck of rung them as a cry for help.
[1:07:40] And what they didn't see was a person in distress.
[1:07:45] Yeah.
[1:07:45] A person who was at their most vulnerable and one of the lowest points of their life.
[1:07:52] And a police officer thought it would be a good idea to take a photo of me getting interviewed, which he did do that.
[1:08:01] And while this was happening, they asked me for my phone.
[1:08:06] They said, if you give us your phone and give us your PIN, we'll give you your phone back by the end of the night.
[1:08:12] If you don't and we have to open the phone ourselves, you probably won't get it back.
[1:08:16] So I've never been in any trouble with the police at all in my life.
[1:08:23] So I gave them the PIN number.
[1:08:24] So while I'm getting interviewed,
[1:08:27] They're going through my phone taking photos of my photos.
[1:08:32] And those photos were of a visual Diary of my transition so quite intimate photos.
[1:08:43] So the photo that they took in the interview room and off my phone Were distributed on a whatsapp group And then within hours, I
[1:08:56] Yeah, they're on the front page of the paper on Sunday morning.
[1:09:01] So we didn't apply for bail, so I got then taken to the custody centre.
[1:09:07] And so then you get this profile, police profile, and you get what's called a CRN, which is criminal record number.
[1:09:16] Um, and you get put up, your profile gets put up onto, um, a LEAP system.
[1:09:22] Um, so any police officer in any station around the state can go into this, um, LEAP system and have a look at what you're charged with or charged with breaking intermission order, um, charged with bringing drugs into a prison, whatever it might have been.
[1:09:42] So then they've taken a photo, someone in Victoria has taken a photo of my profile photo in that LEAP system.
[1:09:52] And then that also became public.
[1:09:56] It's horrific.
[1:09:57] So it was, yeah, it was horrific.
[1:09:59] And so I'm still in custody.
[1:10:02] And then I go to the Melbourne Assessment Prison, which I'd worked in.
[1:10:09] for years for the Department of Justice doing their leadership and management program.
[1:10:14] So that was embarrassing for a start.
[1:10:18] So then we got given a magistrate who apparently loved media attention
[1:10:25] So my lawyer said, no, we're not, we're not going to, you're going to have to stay in jail.
[1:10:30] So I stayed for nine days.
[1:10:33] And I was put into the psych ward at the Melbourne Assessment Prison because I had attempted suicide only two weeks before.
[1:10:44] So the records were there.
[1:10:46] So I was in this psych ward.
[1:10:49] And I remember when the door closed, just breaking down, thinking, this is right now the worst time in my life.
[1:11:00] What's happened?
[1:11:01] So you've got no clothes, no clothes on.
[1:11:05] You just have like a...
[1:11:06] Smock with some Velcro at the top with two pieces of material because they don't want you to self-arm.
[1:11:14] No pillow.
[1:11:16] You have a blanket which you can't bend.
[1:11:19] No toilet paper.
[1:11:22] So I, for the first six or seven days, I was, slept for 18 hours a day and cried for the other six.
[1:11:31] And I didn't know, but, you know, talking on the phone to my son, he just said, Dad, it's a firestorm out here.
[1:11:43] know, so... And that was in regards to the media.
[1:11:45] Yeah.
[1:11:46] Yeah.
[1:11:47] And the narrative was unkind, you know, using the word stalker and it was a two-way conversation, but you know, I should have been better than that.
[1:12:01] Um, and I only could talk about my side of, you know, a dispute.
[1:12:06] Um,
[1:12:06] You know, I should have been better than that, but, you know, I was unwell at that point in time.
[1:12:13] And then, you know, about, you know, being a cross-dresser and cross-dressing is a fetish.
[1:12:21] Gender dysphoria is a medical condition, two completely different things.
[1:12:27] I don't like being labelled that.
[1:12:29] So the narrative was really unkind through that period, and I couldn't do or say anything, and then the police stuff was going on, and then there was criminal charges to the police who all got off
[1:12:42] through that period of time.
[1:12:44] And then there was the civil case.
[1:12:46] So I couldn't do or say anything.
[1:12:48] And so that's why I wrote the book and then the documentary that we made because I wanted to reclaim my narrative, my story.
[1:12:58] Yeah.
[1:12:59] Yep.
[1:13:00] It was interesting.
[1:13:03] There was 50 people or something like that.
[1:13:06] charged with conduct unbecoming and, um, oh, that was another charge.
[1:13:14] I forget what it was anyway.
[1:13:17] So some of them got just raps over the knuckles and then three got charged.
[1:13:23] Um,
[1:13:25] And to their lawyers credit, they played the system out really well and they got a not guilty verdict about sharing the photos and what was private stuff, what was police stuff.
[1:13:41] And they used case law dating back to the 1890s to get off.
[1:13:47] And even the third case just got thrown out because.
[1:13:51] they were kind of come up with the same result anyway.
[1:13:54] So since then, the legislation to do with what's police information, what's private information, the legislation has been changed through my case, which I'm pretty pleased about.
[1:14:09] And I've now worked with Victoria Police to develop a training package for any new police officers going through the academy.
[1:14:20] Oh, that's great.
[1:14:20] Good on you, gosh.
[1:14:22] Amazing.
[1:14:24] Do you mind, this is a bit of a gear shift to something we were talking before.
[1:14:27] Do you mind me asking why you use the word embarrassing when you were talking about suicide attempts?
[1:14:34] Embarrassing in a way that I thought that that would not happen to me.
[1:14:45] But what I have learned is.
[1:14:49] that it can happen to anyone.
[1:14:53] And that's the embarrassing part.
[1:14:57] And that was initially not so much now because I'm far more educated on it.
[1:15:04] You know, I have to say a few times in my life, I'd sort of went there through depression and stuff like that.
[1:15:16] But I always used to wonder.
[1:15:19] What it would be like when you plan, you prepare and you get to that point, um, how would you feel?
[1:15:34] You know, and then that, that would scare me.
[1:15:37] And then it was like back and forth.
[1:15:40] All back from that.
[1:15:40] Yeah.
[1:15:41] You know, um, yeah, but having been there, it was also just the calmness of
[1:15:51] I thought the world would be better off without me.
[1:15:57] And that again, this is through active addiction.
[1:16:01] This is when gender dysphoria is, and this is just before being diagnosed.
[1:16:09] And I was only, I was seeing my counselor, um, and I can remember vividly, used to go there on Tuesday night at four o'clock after work and I
[1:16:20] They were really worried about me and I looked like and felt like death warmed up.
[1:16:26] Like I was just full of drugs, all this stuff going on, completely locked out the whole world and even my kids at this point in time.
[1:16:43] Mm-hmm.
[1:16:44] And it just came out and I said, I think I've gender dysphoria.
[1:16:49] I think I'm transgender.
[1:16:53] And the first thing she said to me was, and this is, this is what care and empathy is about, she said to me, what would you like me to call you?
[1:17:06] And at this point in time, and I said, you know what?
[1:17:13] Thank you for asking, but I reckon we've got this big pile of shit to work through before we even get to... And we both had a laugh, but then it was sort of the weight lifted off and... Beautiful response.
[1:17:25] That was the first time I ever told anyone, so that was late 2019.
[1:17:32] Yeah.
[1:17:33] Oh, so you're in your 50s by then when that happens.
[1:17:36] Wow.
[1:17:37] Yeah.
[1:17:39] So then it was like, okay, gender psychs, endocrinologists, tests, you know, all this stuff.
[1:17:47] And your endocrinologist, Ada, I think it is, who had this wonderful, I think you went for a half an hour appointment but stayed for four hours.
[1:17:55] Yeah, it was.
[1:17:56] Yeah, that was, again, and that was the first one.
[1:18:00] And I was a mess.
[1:18:03] The day she told me, she said, you know, looked at everything, read, researched, could see you.
[1:18:09] Yeah.
[1:18:11] You know, you do have and have always had gender dysphoria.
[1:18:16] So, cause when you go through that, you go through your whole life.
[1:18:20] So then when Ada said that, that was just the affirmation that I needed.
[1:18:25] Then it was like, okay, you're not crazy.
[1:18:28] You're not mentally ill.
[1:18:32] You've known this your whole life.
[1:18:33] Yeah.
[1:18:34] Was it a relief?
[1:18:35] Yeah, huge.
[1:18:36] Huge.
[1:18:36] I remember walking up the road, skipping and jumping and stuff like that.
[1:18:44] But she did say, she said to me, well, what are you going to do?
[1:18:47] And I said, well, I can't live like this.
[1:18:51] So I want to be here.
[1:18:54] But the only way I can be here is if I'm myself.
[1:18:59] because I can't live this life that I'm, that are just in the space of a few years, just spiraled out of absolute control and on myself, but also those, those around me.
[1:19:17] So this is, this all happened late 2019.
[1:19:19] Um, and then, you know, in, into 2020, um, was when it all.
[1:19:27] went pear shaped.
[1:19:29] I'm interested to know, has people from within the AFL have some surprised you with their support and have others disappointed you in their silence?
[1:19:43] Um, I, I can honestly say that everyone has been wonderful.
[1:19:51] That's so great.
[1:19:52] Incredible.
[1:19:54] Like.
[1:19:55] You live in that fear, shame and embarrassment.
[1:19:58] And then, you know, when it became public, they're the first to arrive on the scene.
[1:20:06] Um, how did that feel?
[1:20:07] Oh, incredible.
[1:20:09] And I'm talking from Gil McLaughlin, who was CEO at the time, Brian Walsh, Jay Allen, you know, at the AFL to Steve Hocking, who was at the AFL at that point in time to my own football club.
[1:20:26] Um, the players that I played with and coached, um, it's been, um, yeah, amazing.
[1:20:34] Yeah.
[1:20:35] It must have been, I can't imagine what it must have felt like to be carrying this for 35 years when you were saying before how the absolute horror and fear in your mind of those two worlds crossing, for it to happen and then...
[1:20:57] be embraced by the AFL community, that must just feel, that's got to be one of the best feelings of your life.
[1:21:07] Yeah, it was.
[1:21:10] Absolutely.
[1:21:12] And what's interesting now, and I've spoken about this with Anthony Stephens and Wayne Swass, but why didn't I say anything back then?
[1:21:24] In the 90s in North Melbourne, it wasn't,
[1:21:27] a time or place to do that.
[1:21:31] You survived on sort of attacking your teammates in a fun, jovial, you know, way.
[1:21:39] We just didn't have those conversations, deep conversations back then.
[1:21:47] I don't think anyone did.
[1:21:48] No.
[1:21:49] Um, but as a society and, um, we've come a long way and I think
[1:21:58] The younger generation today are really leading the way in being authentic.
[1:22:05] being raw, being themselves, not really caring what people think about them, as long as you're a good person.
[1:22:14] And I think that's huge.
[1:22:17] And we should water that, if you like, because what it's doing is invariably saving people's lives.
[1:22:28] And then you don't have car crashes like Danielle Lately.
[1:22:35] Do you just, I mean, on that, I wonder, do you ever look at young transgender kids who have not only recognised what's going on, but have the support to become their true self at a young age?
[1:22:55] Is there any like envy?
[1:22:59] Good question.
[1:23:00] Very good question.
[1:23:01] Um...
[1:23:03] No, if I sit, so there's two, I'll answer this in two ways.
[1:23:08] The first part is, like I sit here today and I always talk about phase one of my life and now phase two, if you like.
[1:23:19] Now that I'm sitting here and going through what I've gone through, would I change my life?
[1:23:27] No.
[1:23:29] The only thing I change is the stuff that, the mistakes I made which have affected my children.
[1:23:35] And the other part with young, I won't say just transgender people, I'll say gender diverse youth.
[1:23:43] You know, there's a lot of people and a lot of fake news about, you know, this is a fad, this is whatever.
[1:23:51] It's been around forever.
[1:23:54] And.
[1:23:56] It's now on the table where we can actually talk about it, where it's never been before.
[1:24:02] If you look at the L, the G and the B in the rainbow community, that's been going on for a long time.
[1:24:09] And those people in that movement, if you like, is so far advanced.
[1:24:16] And I think the T's fallen off the table over the years.
[1:24:20] And now it's back on the table and we're having these conversations.
[1:24:24] Yeah.
[1:24:25] And what there is now is resources, education for these young people.
[1:24:31] You know, people go, well, and I'll use the gender clinic at the Royal Melbourne Hospital, for instance, or the Monash gender clinic that have been around since, I think, the early 70s.
[1:24:43] And so for a lot of years,
[1:24:49] The lines in the graph, if you like, from both those two clinics were very flat light until probably in the early 90s where it's just gone through the roof.
[1:25:01] And people say, oh, look, look at all these people come out.
[1:25:04] It's just a fad.
[1:25:06] No.
[1:25:07] No.
[1:25:08] people now more secure to come out and talk about it as adults or young children, um, are more open to talk about it with their parents and educate their parents.
[1:25:23] My concern, and I think this is where I sit, when those lines were just flat lining through the seventies, eighties, you know, and even perhaps earlier before the spike,
[1:25:34] So all those people have still been here, but they've just not gone to use these facilities.
[1:25:43] They're the biggest worry.
[1:25:44] They're people like me that have had all sorts of issues in life.
[1:25:50] So the rhetoric around, you know, transgender youth and, you know, going to school one gender and coming back the other, come on, please.
[1:25:59] There's a lot...
[1:26:03] involve parents, the person themselves, GPs, gender psychs, endocrinology, big team, Supreme Court, like it's massive, you know, and it's not, it's not taken lightly and nor, nor should it be.
[1:26:23] So there's two, yeah, there's two parts to that.
[1:26:26] But I, I.
[1:26:28] people say to me about, oh, you know, resilience or courage for me.
[1:26:33] But then I look at these young kids, um, and I haven't, I do have an example of one, um, transgender, um,
[1:26:43] I won't say child, youth, right now, probably 18, but going back quite a few years ago, left primary school as one gender and came back into high school as another and stood up in front of the whole school and said, this is me.
[1:27:03] Wow.
[1:27:03] Now that's courage, right?
[1:27:07] Like I'm not even the same stratosphere as that, you know,
[1:27:12] How does it feel to you to know that you're a part, like you're a part of that change?
[1:27:19] How does that feel?
[1:27:20] Um, I remember when all this public stuff came out, you know, and I'm wrestling to be who I am and dealing with police, family, a whole range of things, you know, and you have these conversations, well, how are we going to use this?
[1:27:39] What are you going to do?
[1:27:41] Um,
[1:27:43] And I was thinking, oh, you know, I'm a bit naive, but I'd really like just to live my life now.
[1:27:52] you know, and obviously that didn't happen.
[1:27:56] And I remember reading this article about a young transgender woman, Andrea Pellick.
[1:28:07] So she was the androgynous model from Broadmeadows who got whipped up by the world.
[1:28:15] So she's transitioned.
[1:28:17] And she was going through the same thing saying, I just want to live my life.
[1:28:22] And then she got to the age, I think it was 28 or something, when she thought, no, I need to break down barriers for the next generation and things that I went through.
[1:28:35] And when I read that, I thought, yeah, that's me.
[1:28:38] Mm-hmm.
[1:28:38] So I've lived my life as me.
[1:28:43] I don't get up on my soapbox and I hope that I'm a part of this by just, you know, being me and being lucky enough to have platforms like this.
[1:28:57] where we can talk about these things and talk about my story.
[1:29:01] And, yeah, it is a passion to break down as many barriers that I can for the next generation and the following generation because I think I'm in a pretty good space, if you like, that I've walked on both sides of the tracks and I've got a really good understanding of what minority groups now, you know, go through.
[1:29:29] Can I ask you about Donna?
[1:29:31] She's sitting here today with us and you met back in primary school when you were in grade one and there were so many special parts of the documentary, which we'll put a link to in the show notes.
[1:29:43] One of my favourite moments was when you reached out to her to tell her
[1:29:48] about Danielle basically and she said yeah whatever but I just want to know that you're okay are you fine I don't really that's whatever that's good but and then I think she went on to say that she's just always loved you always for you and all this stuff is irrelevant she just loves the you the person and
[1:30:09] That type of love and that partnership and that support, I'd love to hear.
[1:30:14] I mean, yeah, I'd love to hear you talk about Donna.
[1:30:19] Um, the good's bad, but even different.
[1:30:21] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's all, it's all, it's all good.
[1:30:26] Um, I think the thing that got me, um, apart from a lot of things was, um, Donna often says, you know, I love this person.
[1:30:39] For some people that's hard to comprehend.
[1:30:42] And maybe because it's, we did meet in grade one, um, we were boyfriend and girlfriend at times through primary school and at high school.
[1:30:51] Um, our two brothers were best friends going through school.
[1:30:56] You know, we, we had this connection there that's been there forever.
[1:31:01] And I got married early and kids and so did Donna.
[1:31:05] You know, our two worlds were, you know, ways apart.
[1:31:09] and then we reconnected
[1:31:13] Oh, I don't know, 2014, 2015.
[1:31:16] So it wasn't long after I got the villa in Bali and I thought, because my Facebook and socials were very private.
[1:31:24] And I thought, well, I've got this villa, I'm going to rent it out when I'm not there.
[1:31:28] So I opened my Facebook and then we reconnected, started there.
[1:31:31] And then it started to become long late night chats over a long period of time.
[1:31:35] And she'd come to Melbourne, have lunch, that sort of stuff.
[1:31:40] And it rea- when I was going through that bad period of time, you know, we were talking all the time, but then I would just disappear, you know, for days on, days on end, no, nothing.
[1:31:55] And then it'd be text, welfare check, and then I think, oh, okay.
[1:32:01] Um, but she knew.
[1:32:06] me, she understood me.
[1:32:08] I tried to give
[1:32:12] some clues and hints.
[1:32:14] So I'd always send her little emojis like high heel shoes or a dress or a thing like that, and it just went straight over her head.
[1:32:23] I thought she would get it because I don't know if you know this, but Donna was the ducks of our school.
[1:32:28] Pretty smart.
[1:32:29] I thought she might have got it, but she didn't.
[1:32:34] Wasn't looking for it.
[1:32:35] No, no.
[1:32:37] And then she does tell another story that...
[1:32:42] apart from our lunches in Melbourne and being on the phone all the time.
[1:32:44] And we organised to meet up in Bali.
[1:32:50] So this is like 2000 and
[1:32:54] 17, 18, I can't quite remember.
[1:32:56] Anyway, I'm in the, I'm bad.
[1:33:00] Like, I'm really bad.
[1:33:03] And when you're like that in Bali, that's also on another level.
[1:33:09] In what way?
[1:33:11] You can very end up, easily end up in jail.
[1:33:14] Oh, gotcha.
[1:33:14] For using drugs in Bali.
[1:33:15] Yeah.
[1:33:16] Yeah.
[1:33:16] Yeah.
[1:33:19] And I remember we'd organised to catch up.
[1:33:22] So it was 10 o'clock in the morning.
[1:33:23] I walk in with a plastic bag with probably a dozen Jack Daniels and Coke in.
[1:33:29] I hadn't slept for maybe a week.
[1:33:33] Wow.
[1:33:34] I'm just sitting on the chair and like sort of coming in and out of consciousness.
[1:33:39] But we really reconnected and we were supposed to catch up again, but then I disappeared again.
[1:33:47] but she was always there, there, the care, the love, the empathy.
[1:33:52] I could really tell that.
[1:33:54] We eventually left and I'd drunk all the...
[1:34:00] alcohol and, um, jumped on my bike, which I shouldn't have jumped on and I dropped off the restaurant and she walked into her girlfriends who were there waiting for her and just started crying, like really crying, saying, you know, I'm never, I'll never ever see that person again.
[1:34:20] Hmm.
[1:34:22] So the flip side of that is it was true because that was the last time she saw phase one.
[1:34:31] Wow.
[1:34:32] Yeah.
[1:34:32] So her care and empathy for me and helping me to be the best person –
[1:34:40] That I can I think I bring out the best in in Donna as well and we get along like a house on fire you know, it's We've we've worked really hard to carve out a great life for us and hopefully our kids moving forward You know, but it's something that we still need to work on every day You know, we both have our quirks and that's what I love about it.
[1:35:07] Mm-hmm
[1:35:08] Um, did your parents ever find anything or see anything or when you were young that, that they questioned or they, or that you felt panicked about that they had seen?
[1:35:20] Um, I've asked mum this, uh, dad passed over 20 years ago and she said, no, no, no.
[1:35:30] How's your relationship with your mum?
[1:35:32] How was your mum with, that's gotta be a very confronting and complicated conversation.
[1:35:39] Yeah, when I was going through that bad stage, before it all blew up, Mum and I used to fight on the phone.
[1:35:46] Because I wouldn't, didn't want to speak to her, didn't want anything to do with her, like I did a lot of people.
[1:35:52] Yeah.
[1:35:54] And kept saying, you know, I've got a lot of stuff going on over here, blah, blah, blah.
[1:35:57] She goes, well, tell me.
[1:35:58] And then we'd end up yelling and screaming and one of us would hang up.
[1:36:05] So one night I text her and said, okay, I'm going to tell you, I've been diagnosed with gender dysphoria.
[1:36:14] If you don't know what it is, look it up.
[1:36:17] If you still want to talk to me after that, I'm here.
[1:36:21] Um, I sort of waited and waited while thinking what's going to happen.
[1:36:26] What a wait.
[1:36:27] And I think she texted me back maybe six, seven hours later and said, you know, I'm so sorry that you've had to go through this by yourself.
[1:36:35] Why didn't you tell me?
[1:36:37] Um.
[1:36:38] Because with my mum, my relationship with my mum was pretty tumultuous.
[1:36:46] You know, why did she leave my dad?
[1:36:49] Why did she move to Sydney?
[1:36:50] You know, is it because she didn't like myself or my brother or, you know, you sort of start to wonder why?
[1:36:57] And...
[1:36:59] You know, she was very good in, you know, taking me to footy and giving me what I needed to develop and that sort of stuff.
[1:37:09] But there was just this something there.
[1:37:14] And since I received that text, you know, we've spoken about my childhood, all those things and...
[1:37:26] Now we have this great relationship.
[1:37:29] Unfortunately, obviously she's still with us, which is great, but she has the onset of dementia.
[1:37:37] Okay.
[1:37:38] But she can't remember what happened five seconds ago, but she can remember what happened 50 years ago.
[1:37:45] And I have a great relationship with her now.
[1:37:48] I just wish there was a lot more down the track, but unfortunately we don't know that.
[1:37:57] I have a relationship now with him, which is just absolutely brilliant.
[1:38:04] Wow.
[1:38:04] You know, because my mum will still revert to phase one name occasionally.
[1:38:08] And my pop, he'll say.
[1:38:12] It's not that, it's Danny, Danny, Danny.
[1:38:15] You know, mum would go, oh yeah, okay, sorry, sorry, sorry, I didn't mean to do that.
[1:38:21] You know, so, and that's why one of the reasons why we moved back to Perth.
[1:38:27] For Donna's dad and my parents, because at that age now and.
[1:38:33] Um, I've been away long enough and being able to fulfill some dreams.
[1:38:39] Um, now I feel it's time to give back to them.
[1:38:42] So my relationship with my, my, my parents, unfortunately my dad did pass, you know, many years ago.
[1:38:49] Um, he's in a good space.
[1:38:52] Wonderful.
[1:38:53] I would just love to hear you speak to anyone out there who's feeling trapped right now, whether it's through identity or addiction or mental health.
[1:39:01] If you have anything, what would you love them to hear?
[1:39:03] Hugh, I think what I've learned in this life is we can't do it ourselves.
[1:39:13] You need to communicate how you're feeling.
[1:39:19] to be able to be your best and who you want to be in this life.
[1:39:24] And I think that's incredibly important.
[1:39:27] And don't be ashamed, don't be embarrassed.
[1:39:31] You know, I thought my problems were bad.
[1:39:35] And you get so insular in those, in your own problems.
[1:39:39] But the person sitting next to you or the person around the corner is probably going through some sane stuff as you.
[1:39:47] You know, we're not...
[1:39:49] We're not perfect.
[1:39:50] We are imperfect.
[1:39:53] And that I think is also the beauty of the human race, that we come with all these things.
[1:40:02] So, and you can work on them and you can become a better rounded person wherever you come from in life and whether you come from a broken family or a great family life.
[1:40:15] So, you know, I would say find some people you trust, talk about it and work your way through to being the very best person that you can be.
[1:40:29] Be authentic because I can say from my experience of being authentic...
[1:40:39] And whatever that looks like, you know, for me and others, it's so rewarding.
[1:40:47] That's a beautiful point to end.
[1:40:48] I think I feel like this is one of those conversations that you just put in the category of life saving.
[1:40:54] I think you'll save lives with this, with your honest and very open reflections on your life.
[1:41:01] So thank you so much for joining us today.
[1:41:04] It's been an absolute pleasure.
[1:41:06] Oh, thank you to the three of you.
[1:41:07] It's, as I say, like, I'm grateful and thankful to be able to come on here.
[1:41:14] So please keep doing what you're doing because, you know, we need this and not just from all walks of life and the different stories that you tell.
[1:41:23] It's helping the world be a better place.
[1:41:26] So thank you.
[1:41:38] What a legend.
[1:41:40] Yeah.
[1:41:42] Like, it's just rare that you meet people like that.
[1:41:46] It was just a really incredible experience to sit down for that long and chat with a woman like that.
[1:41:55] Incredible.
[1:41:55] Yeah.
[1:41:56] How great was the energy of both the DLs?
[1:41:59] Oh, yeah.
[1:41:59] Donald Leckie, Danielle's partner, the two of them, they are good to be around.
[1:42:05] Oh, yeah.
[1:42:05] And Danielle says like, you know, they're all about having fun and you can just imagine the fun they're having.
[1:42:11] Yeah, absolutely.
[1:42:13] They're great.
[1:42:15] I actually wanted to mention something which feels a little bit, there was so much to take away from the ep, but there was something that came up for me and it's been something I've thought about as we've recorded a few stories this year.
[1:42:29] As someone who just happened to be born in the body that I identify with as my gender and to have a sexuality that is, in inverted commas, the norm or at least the larger majority in Australian Western culture...
[1:42:46] I feel like to this point in my life, I hadn't quite really taken the time to think about how terrible an act is outing someone else.
[1:42:59] I would obviously never do it.
[1:43:00] And I've obviously always thought that's just a nasty thing to do.
[1:43:04] And on its surface, without giving it any thought, I think it's inherently obvious that it's a terrible thing to do.
[1:43:11] but it used to be such a thing in media where you'd have like salacious sort of, it was like getting the scoop that that person is gay or whatever it happened to be.
[1:43:25] And it was like, we've got the story and our chance to leak it and get the headline.
[1:43:28] And it was like, like that was a, like a, that was fair game.
[1:43:33] And luckily it's not happening anywhere near as much anymore, but I'm sure there are still places that try and do it.
[1:43:39] But in any context, even if it's not leaking to the media, but just trying to spread that story in social circles and that kind of stuff, it really, hearing Danielle speak and some other people we've spoken to,
[1:43:52] But in the case of Danielle, hearing the internal trauma that she went through for 48 years, feeling like she couldn't be herself in public and own her story, to spend your whole life working towards a moment where you can finally do it and then have that taken away from you?
[1:44:13] like your moment of announcing yourself to the world, you've done the work or you're doing the work required to be proud of the person you are.
[1:44:25] And we just heard for an incredible detail that how much...
[1:44:32] Payne had gone along in that journey and how much work Danielle needed to do due to the fact that society was not ready for her.
[1:44:42] I think that's the right way to say it.
[1:44:43] And I'm sorry if that didn't come out right.
[1:44:47] For then, in her case, members of the police force to take it upon themselves to feel that they could do that.
[1:44:52] But it happens all the time.
[1:44:55] It's one of the nastiest things I can think of doing to someone, to steal that moment.
[1:44:59] Because it absolutely wasn't presented in a way that she would have planned or hoped for and it wasn't the full story.
[1:45:06] It was a small part of the story.
[1:45:07] It was such an unkind version of the story.
[1:45:11] And I just think about her being in a psych unit locked away, knowing that the world is...
[1:45:18] making what they want of a few photos.
[1:45:21] Yeah.
[1:45:22] It's so true, Josh.
[1:45:24] It is the nastiest thing to do to another human being.
[1:45:27] Yeah.
[1:45:28] And it reinforces the sort of power dynamic and the shame dynamic that,
[1:45:37] In her case, she spent 48 years trying to work through and it gets like smashed over the head with it again by other people.
[1:45:46] It's like it's just the worst.
[1:45:47] And it's always been inherently just obviously nasty, but I feel like it's a failure of my empathy to not really think about it properly to the point of what you're really doing to the person as well, as well as just being plain nasty.
[1:46:02] Yeah, but joke's on you because you have noticed it.
[1:46:06] And I think that's like, that is the exact, it's the perfect result really from that conversation.
[1:46:13] That is why it's one of the reasons why it's so good.
[1:46:17] Like having a conversation like that, we're just learning.
[1:46:21] We can't know everything.
[1:46:22] We can't feel everything and know what every perspective is like automatically and everything.
[1:46:26] Yeah, to speak to her and understand her perspective and hear her story.
[1:46:31] It's why we're doing this whole show, isn't it?
[1:46:34] Yeah.
[1:46:35] Yeah, and it's so true.
[1:46:37] It's well beyond a worst nightmare I could ever imagine.
[1:46:39] Ryan, you said at the top of this chat that at the start of this episode that we all know it's like to have a secret.
[1:46:45] Yeah.
[1:46:47] And then a secret that people, imagining that secret coming out through on someone else's terms, they tell part of the story, not the kindest version of it.
[1:46:54] We're not really there to defend it or explain it.
[1:46:57] I mean, it cost her the opportunity to sit down with her own kids and tell them who she really is, like in her own words.
[1:47:05] Probably one of the most important conversations of her life.
[1:47:08] Yeah.
[1:47:09] That was robbed from her.
[1:47:10] Yeah.
[1:47:10] It's taken away from her in a way that has made it impossible to get that opportunity back to this point, which is just so devastating.
[1:47:18] Well said, Josh.
[1:47:19] It's so true.
[1:47:20] Yeah.
[1:47:20] It was an honor to meet Danielle and to have my perspective on the world broadened even further.
[1:47:28] It was wonderful.
[1:47:30] Yeah.
[1:47:30] Ditto.
[1:47:31] Yeah.
[1:47:32] And thank you, huge thank you to Danielle because it can't be easy doing that.
[1:47:37] No.
[1:47:37] Sitting down and sharing that so generously for us to, getting us to that point of broadening our perspective.
[1:47:46] Yeah.
[1:47:48] Yeah, I think it's life-changing for so many people.
[1:47:50] Yep.
[1:47:51] Yep.
[1:47:52] All right.
[1:47:53] Oh, good to see you guys.
[1:47:54] Yeah.
[1:47:54] Like Rose.
[1:47:56] See you soon.
[1:47:57] See you soon.
[1:47:58] In a new office.
[1:48:00] Yeah.
[1:48:00] In a new studio.
[1:48:01] Without a painting.
[1:48:03] Without a painting.
[1:48:04] Well, without that painting.
[1:48:06] Yeah.
[1:48:06] Like I always say, no art allowed.
[1:48:09] Okay.
[1:48:12] That is a shelter.
[1:48:12] I think we've proven that that doesn't work.
[1:48:16] helps no one.
[1:48:18] Let's just do away with it once and for all.
[1:48:20] Finally.
[1:48:23] If you enjoyed this episode, there's a very good chance you'll love the Vulnerability Mail, our weekly newsletter to help you remain imperfect.
[1:48:31] Each week, we'll send you one vulnerable question inspired by the current episode to help you unpack your own imperfect life.
[1:48:37] Subscribe at www.theimperfects.com.au.

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