# Courtney Ugle - Intergenerational Strength

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 13 Apr 2025, 1 h 15 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/xe4s5ikg2i5bc9szxtgmoxjk.mp3

Trauma ran through Courtney Ugle’s family - until it ran into her. CEO and founder of Waangkiny, as well as a football superstar, Courtney is on a mission to transform her adversity into resilience, power, and love. In our Vulnerabilitea House, Courtney answers the question, “what childhood challenges best prepared you for adulthood?”, diving into how she copes with the loss of her greatest source of unconditional love and support, and how this drives the work that she does today. In conversation with Hugh, Ryan and Josh, Courtney speaks to the raw intersection of grief and joy, and what it is like to realise that the only person coming to save you, is you. Courtney, we can’t wait to have an oat magic with you soon. If you want to watch this full episode on YouTube, follow this link: https://youtu.be/G_Rdt1EhA0U If you would like to host your own Vulneratilitea House, you can purchase the cards here - https://bit.ly/3Cx4tGP 💻 Things to checkout: • Waangkiny - https://www.waangkiny.com 📺 Things to watch: • Once Were Warriors - https://bit.ly/3XPMxyJ 🚨If you, or someone you know, has experienced or is at risk of domestic violence, call the 24 hour national counselling service 1800RESPECT (1800 737 732). In an emergency, or if you’re feeling unsafe, call 000. 🩷If you want A Little More Imperfects, join our Patreon to get just that - www.patreon.com/theimperfects 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - https://bit.ly/3Cx4tGP 🩷To subscribe to the Vulnerabilitea-mail weekly newsletter, join through our website - www.theimperfects.com.au This episode of The Imperfects discusses domestic and family violence. If these topics are too much for you right now, then we suggest you skip this one and come back when you're ready.

## Transcript

[0:00] This episode of The Imperfects discusses domestic and family violence.
[0:04] If these topics are too much for you right now, then we suggest you skip this one and come back when you're ready.
[0:09] It was a Wednesday.
[0:11] My phone starts to ring and it's my brother.
[0:13] And I said out loud, I was like, oh, my brother never calls me throughout the day.
[0:16] I wonder what's wrong.
[0:17] I answered it and he just said, something has happened at mum's house, you need to get there now.
[0:23] this is not good.
[0:24] And so we drive to Mum's house and I get there and there's police and ambulance everywhere and a different man that Mum had been on and off with for years was at the front.
[0:36] The Imperfects invites you into a very safe place.
[0:43] A place where we share without judgement and drink heaps of vulnerability.
[0:55] Grab yourself a cup.
[0:58] This is the Vulnerability House.
[1:07] Wow, Hugh.
[1:08] Here we are.
[1:09] Josh, Courtney.
[1:12] This is exciting.
[1:13] Yes.
[1:14] But I'm going to handball the bio to Hugh.
[1:16] Yes.
[1:17] Well, I will do the bye in a second, but I just... Handball.
[1:21] Thank you.
[1:21] Yeah.
[1:22] 40 ref.
[1:25] So you can kick it through the big sticks.
[1:26] Yeah, okay.
[1:27] Thank you.
[1:28] Thanks so much.
[1:30] I'm going to tackle you to stop you talking.
[1:31] Yeah, good.
[1:32] Okay.
[1:32] That's good.
[1:33] Yeah.
[1:34] I won't do that.
[1:34] It would be a weird thing to do.
[1:37] Yep.
[1:37] Speaking of football and tackles, we're joined by...
[1:41] We're joined by Courtney Eugle today, which is, I feel like this has been a long time coming.
[1:46] So we are so happy that you are here today.
[1:49] Oh, yeah.
[1:49] Thank you.
[1:50] I'm so stoked to be here.
[1:51] I want to say I can't believe that I'm here, but I feel like I knew that this was going to come eventually.
[1:57] Oh, really?
[1:58] And it's not to kind of big note, but it was like, I, as soon as Hugh, I read your book, I felt so connected to it.
[2:03] And I was like, I'm going to try my hardest to connect with him.
[2:06] Cause I feel like we will be able to have so much to talk about.
[2:10] And I just bombarded you with messages over the course of three years.
[2:14] And I don't know, I just always felt that we would come together and, you know, three years later, here we are.
[2:19] Yeah, just really want to stress that I promise you I didn't see the message on Instagram.
[2:23] I sent him like four times of the same message, copy and paste, sent it.
[2:28] And I was like, I'm going to hassle him until he sees me, until he hears me.
[2:33] I'm so sorry.
[2:34] But you did connect with Penny.
[2:36] And I actually remember the moment in the kitchen after kids had gone to bed out of nowhere, Penny said, you have got to get Courtney on your podcast a little while ago.
[2:44] And here we are.
[2:45] I just always knew in my heart that we would connect one day.
[2:49] Well, it's so great you're here.
[2:50] I will get to your bio because I'd love people to know more about you if they don't already.
[2:55] So Courtney, so opening line is a beauty.
[2:58] Courtney is a force of nature and is determined to break the cycle of trauma for herself, her family, her community and generations to come.
[3:07] Courtney is a, uh, Courtney is a proud, um, Baladong.
[3:10] Okay.
[3:12] I'm going to, I'm going to get this correct.
[3:14] Um, Baladong, um, Wadani Nunga woman from Bunbury, Western Australia.
[3:19] How'd I go there?
[3:20] Great job.
[3:21] So it's Wadandi, Wadandi Nhoongar.
[3:24] Okay, so not a great job.
[3:26] No, no, no, really.
[3:27] No, good.
[3:28] Thank you.
[3:28] First try.
[3:29] In 2018, Courtney moved to Melbourne to pursue an opportunity with the Essendon Bombers in the VFLW, a move which she claims changed and saved her life.
[3:39] Football provided Courtney with a purpose and a sense of community.
[3:42] Her leadership skills and talents saw her promoted to co-captain of the VFLW team in 2023.
[3:47] The first indigenous woman to ever fulfill this role.
[3:51] That must have made you very proud.
[3:52] I was very proud of that.
[3:54] Off field, Courtney was involved in the founding of the First Nations Women's Development Program at Essendon for the AFLW and VFLW players.
[4:02] Courtney now plays.
[4:03] So you were with the Bulldogs and you are now with the Kangaroos.
[4:08] Can you say North Melbourne?
[4:09] Do people say North Melbourne anymore?
[4:10] It's just kangaroos, isn't it?
[4:11] I think it's just the kangaroos.
[4:12] I'm not too sure.
[4:13] I'm still very new, so I'm still learning the terminology over there.
[4:16] Just kangaroos instead of kangaroos even?
[4:18] Yeah.
[4:20] Jeez, things have changed.
[4:23] Everyone's so fast-paced these days.
[4:25] They haven't got time to say roos.
[4:27] This is one too many syllables.
[4:29] After moving to Melbourne, Courtney began working at JIRA, formerly known as the Aboriginal Family Violence and Legal Service.
[4:36] Courtney now leads the Young Love Initiative at JIRA.
[4:38] Well, you did up until very recently, is that right?
[4:40] Yeah.
[4:41] Which aims to inform young Aboriginal girls about healthy relationships.
[4:45] Yeah.
[4:46] Now, however, so in 2024, Courtney launched Warkening as the CEO and founder, translating to speaking in Nungar language.
[4:54] Warkening empowers individuals and communities through storytelling in the form of workshops, keynote speeches and consultancy services.
[5:02] Cool.
[5:02] Which really makes sense why you're like, right, we need to, Hugh and I need to Warkening.
[5:07] Yes, that's right.
[5:08] Can you tell us a bit more about Warkening?
[5:10] Yeah, so Warkening essentially was born from my own struggles and, you know, me 10 years ago would not even think that it was possible for me to own my own business or to be the founder of something, right?
[5:24] And my mission is to inspire individuals and communities to transform adversity into influence through the power of storytelling.
[5:30] Yeah.
[5:31] I mean, it's sort of, even though the story clearly is very different than the story Hugh would tell when he was doing his talk, I can see why you resonated with the book when you read it, because it is very kind of similar, like very parallel experience.
[5:45] And I said this to Hugh, I said the part that I loved because I felt the most connected with was the day that he couldn't pay for his coffee.
[5:53] And I'm a big coffee snob.
[5:56] We've been drinking coffee since we were like young kids.
[5:58] How young?
[6:00] So probably like 12, 13.
[6:02] Now the back story of that is so mum had some difficulties, you know, being a single parent trying to raise kids and often that meant that we would be without children.
[6:14] food and power and you know sometimes we didn't even know where mum was right so if there was no food in the house there was stuff to make instant coffee so we would we would honestly just be drinking instant coffee um just to kind of feel full and so that was about you know 12 13 and it just has not stopped um it has not stopped so wow what sort of coffee do you take now
[6:36] Oh, now I'm a snob and Melbourne has done this to me, but I drink an oat magic.
[6:40] Oh, me too.
[6:41] That's my favourite.
[6:42] Yeah.
[6:43] If my family back home asked me what coffee I drink and I said that, they would laugh at me.
[6:48] Like, it is just unheard of, right?
[6:51] No, no, sorry, what coffee do you drink?
[6:52] But is a magic, I feel like magic is quite Melbourne-centric.
[6:56] Yeah, even my mother-in-law who is Bendigo and is a country woman from way back, she'll say like, what, I'll get you coffee, what are you having?
[7:07] And I'll say, oh, magic.
[7:08] She's like, I'm not saying that.
[7:10] Yeah, that's embarrassing.
[7:11] There's no way I'm saying that to the brister.
[7:13] Yeah.
[7:13] Yeah.
[7:14] And so to your point about the coffee, when Hugh couldn't pay for his coffee, that resonated with me because I've always said to people like the day that I can't afford to buy my own coffee, then something's really wrong.
[7:25] You know, like something is wrong because.
[7:28] Back in the day, that was something that we used to feel full.
[7:31] And now it is a bit of a luxury for me to be able to go and buy a coffee.
[7:35] And so I just, I don't know, I just really resonated with that line.
[7:39] And yeah, people know that if there comes a time where I can't afford my own coffee, then something's wrong.
[7:45] What was it like, a kid from Bunbury coming to Melbourne?
[7:49] What was that like?
[7:50] It was a very different way of living because I, you know, I come from a community, a country town where everybody knows everyone.
[8:00] And I suppose it's not off topic, but it's a really important part of my move is that I was never questioned of my Aboriginality until I moved here to Melbourne.
[8:08] and that for me was so challenging because I couldn't understand that someone would look at me and not see me as an Aboriginal person because that's all I've ever known my entire life.
[8:18] Obviously I'm fair in appearance and I have blonde hair, but my bloodline is strong and I know where I come from.
[8:24] You know, both my mum and dad are Aboriginal, both sets of my grandparents are Aboriginal.
[8:28] Growing up with my darker skin family members, I didn't feel any less...
[8:32] Aboriginal than anybody.
[8:33] So coming here and being questioned of that was one quite daunting because I didn't know how to respond to that.
[8:41] So navigating a different, I suppose, community.
[8:44] I'm so used to seeing my people and cousins and family members just walking around and everyone essentially was a complete stranger here to me.
[8:52] When you say your Aboriginality was questioned, what do you mean?
[8:57] So if I said like, oh, yeah, I'm a Noongar woman, someone would be like, oh, so on what side of the family?
[9:03] Or the biggest one that I find funny now, but they would say, but you can't be Aboriginal, you have blonde hair.
[9:10] And they were really confused that an Aboriginal person could have blonde hair, naturally blonde hair, I must say.
[9:16] Um, but they couldn't, they couldn't grasp that I could look the way that I do and be Aboriginal.
[9:21] So I'd get asked what percentage I am, you know, is it my mom or my dad or is it my grandparents?
[9:26] Like how far does this go back?
[9:27] Cause you can't be Aboriginal when you've physically look not Aboriginal.
[9:31] You know what I mean?
[9:33] So I've known that I have been an Aboriginal person from the day that I entered the world.
[9:38] Um, and so as when I honed in on that and that strength and just that knowing about where I come from, no one was ever going to take that away from me.
[9:48] Awesome.
[9:50] Um, well, you're in the vulnerability house.
[9:53] There are cards in front of you.
[9:54] If you'd like to grab three of them and then you can choose the one that really speaks to you the most.
[10:00] Okay.
[10:01] Just three.
[10:02] Yep.
[10:02] Yeah.
[10:03] How's the tea, by the way?
[10:03] Oh, I haven't had a taste yet.
[10:05] No, neither are I. Peppermint tea?
[10:07] Yep.
[10:08] What do you think of our mugs but they're glasses?
[10:11] Very cute.
[10:12] Okay.
[10:13] Did you pick them?
[10:14] I did not pick them.
[10:15] Did I?
[10:15] I didn't pick them, did I?
[10:19] You did not?
[10:19] No.
[10:20] There's no I.
[10:22] No.
[10:22] No.
[10:23] Yeah.
[10:24] Oh, dear.
[10:25] Okay, so I'll read these ones out.
[10:27] So this first one is what triggers anxiety in you?
[10:31] Mm.
[10:33] What insecurities have held you back?
[10:36] That's a really good question.
[10:39] What childhood challenges best prepared you for adulthood?
[10:43] Oh, yeah.
[10:44] I reckon I'll go with that one.
[10:46] Okay.
[10:48] Yeah.
[10:49] This is interesting because...
[10:52] At no point in my childhood when we were experiencing some pretty heavy stuff that I feel, you know, no child should ever really experience that.
[11:02] But at no point did I think that this was a lesson that I was going to be taught or that I was going to take into my adult life.
[11:12] Because when you are a young adolescent, a young teenager, and you are...
[11:17] wondering where is your next meal coming from?
[11:20] How come we don't have any lights on?
[11:21] Like, you know, the power bill hasn't been paid.
[11:24] You don't think that what you're learning is going to carry off into your adult life.
[11:29] No.
[11:30] And so when I think about the things that we had to do as young kids, you know, for example, knocking on the neighbour's door asking for food was something that was quite common for us.
[11:40] And so I think when I look back and reminisce on what we went through is...
[11:46] young, young children, there's so many things that I was taught back then that obviously have come into play now as an adult.
[11:55] And some of them aren't, I suppose, you know, great because it, a lot of it is trauma response to what I experienced.
[12:02] Like my independence today is, um, very hard for people that are closest to me because I feel like I just have to do everything, solve every problem on my own.
[12:13] I can handle this and the asking for help.
[12:17] is very hard for me to do.
[12:18] Oh, that's interesting.
[12:20] It's hard for you to ask for help, even though that was such a big part of your childhood.
[12:24] That's right, yeah.
[12:26] And as a child, we had a lot of different people, random people, teachers from our school that came to our aid a lot of the time.
[12:34] But learning to figure things out on my own is one of my great qualities, but also can be very detrimental because I can suffer in silence
[12:45] trying to figure something out when all I needed to do is just ask for help.
[12:49] So this is something I'm trying to learn, right?
[12:50] So my mum had a lot of battles with drugs and alcohol and for a long time, you know, as a young child, she wasn't someone that I idolised or wanted to be like.
[13:00] It only now as an adult that she had the qualities that I possess today and the...
[13:10] being kind and not judging anyone, you know, the book by its cover, sharing, mum used to say, sharing is caring.
[13:16] So the ability to share with people, the ability to open up your heart and your mind, like all these things that I now have today are because of my mum, but I didn't recognise them or know them at the time.
[13:28] And so she wasn't someone I idolised or wanted to be like back then, but now, like, I'm so proud to be her daughter because the qualities that I have have come from my mum.
[13:38] And it's so crazy.
[13:39] Almost like you can see your mum and probably your whole life, I'm assuming, but as an adult, you see life through a different lens.
[13:47] Absolutely.
[13:47] And you have different experiences.
[13:48] Yeah.
[13:49] And I think one of the best lines she ever said was like, one day you'll understand.
[13:55] As I sit here today, like, I understand.
[13:59] But with mum's struggles, like, her ability to still help others, you know, she would give you the close of her back if it meant that you were okay, while she went without, like...
[14:11] I didn't, I didn't see that as something that was a good quality back then, you know, cause it was like, why would you give, why would you give that person something and now you've got nothing, you know?
[14:19] And so mum taught me so much about life in some really weird and messed up ways even, but I find myself thinking, you know, this is, I'm like this because of my mum.
[14:31] Can you talk a bit more about the things that she did struggle with?
[14:34] Like what were the – you've mentioned a couple of times that she had struggles.
[14:37] What were they – or what they looked like through your eyes?
[14:40] Yeah, yeah.
[14:42] So I'll only share my stories.
[14:44] I don't like to speak for others because I think that's their story to tell.
[14:48] So I'll come in from a child perspective.
[14:51] So growing up, my mum –
[14:54] she was abused by every single partner that came into the house, physically, mentally, emotionally, financially.
[15:01] And again, we didn't know those big words back in the day.
[15:03] We just knew that our mum would be violently abused by these men that came in.
[15:09] Would you witness that?
[15:10] Yeah, yeah.
[15:11] Oh, my God.
[15:12] Yeah.
[15:13] Yeah.
[15:14] I reckon from five years upwards.
[15:20] Yeah, until I was 19 years old.
[15:22] I can't think of him more scary as a child.
[15:25] It was so, so scary, so scary.
[15:28] And again, like reflecting on a lot of those times, I think, you know, you push a lot of your memories back into your mind, you suppress it, right.
[15:35] And it comes up in weird ways and comes out in, in your physical appearance, like how, how you respond certain triggers.
[15:42] And I do share this story when I'm comfortable.
[15:47] This, this, so when I say mum was abused by every single man, like every single man,
[15:52] Um, but I remember this one time it was mum's birthday and it was just, I was the only child there.
[15:56] It was mum and her partner and they were sitting around the table like this and they were having a few drinks and.
[16:01] And how old are you, sorry?
[16:02] I would have been 11 or 12, I think.
[16:05] 12.
[16:05] Yeah.
[16:05] Um, yeah.
[16:08] And so we're sitting around and mum had said to her partner at the time, we should go down to the pub, have a few drinks, like have some dinner there.
[16:15] And he didn't like this.
[16:17] And so he leant over the table with a cigarette and burnt her on the cheek with the smoke.
[16:22] And I remember she had this big mark on her face for so long.
[16:26] Anyway, they were arguing that night and I was asleep and it would have been about three o'clock in the morning and mum comes in to me and she's whispering, she's like, babe, we need to go, we need to go.
[16:34] And I'm thinking, what?
[16:35] Like, what do you mean?
[16:36] She's like, we can't go out the door.
[16:37] We have to go out on the side.
[16:39] And this apartment that we're in was a two-story complex and she was like, we have to jump off the balcony.
[16:45] And so I'm just listening to mum.
[16:46] I'm just doing whatever mum's telling me to do.
[16:48] So we open up the door, the sliding door, and mum jumps off and she's like, come on, baby, come.
[16:54] You have to jump.
[16:55] You have to jump.
[16:55] How high up are you?
[16:56] It was two flights, like two stories up.
[16:59] And so I jump and we land, like mum's trying to catch me, and we land on the floor and we go to this little bush area and she lit a smoke and she got a phone.
[17:10] And then we started running the streets of Perth to this house and this lady was at the front.
[17:15] She had the car on and the door open.
[17:17] And I remember she looked so familiar and she was the mother of my little friend that used to play with at the park across the road.
[17:22] And so now when I think about this and I reflect, like mum had that planned.
[17:26] Like it was organised and I think like I was so terrified that
[17:34] I couldn't imagine my mum, right, and how she felt.
[17:37] And this wasn't the first time that she'd been in a situation like that.
[17:40] And she just would have hated that she had one of her babies with her during this time.
[17:44] But that's just one story.
[17:47] There are so many more.
[17:49] Wow.
[17:51] Oh, my God.
[17:52] Like what happens to you in the few weeks after that, like in the coming days or are you just –
[17:57] Well, I'm a young child, so I don't really have a good grasp of what's really happening.
[18:02] I don't have an understanding of what's actually happening around us.
[18:04] Again, you know, I was born into this environment where family domestic violence was normalized.
[18:10] You know, it wasn't just our family going through this.
[18:12] There were so many people in our family that were experiencing the same thing.
[18:16] So...
[18:17] For so long, especially in my young adolescent years, you know, you start to think, is this the way people show love to one another?
[18:25] Is this how it's meant to be?
[18:26] Because that's what I saw.
[18:27] That's what was modelled around me.
[18:29] And again, not just in my household, but in our community.
[18:35] Yeah, a lot of it is kind of a blur.
[18:37] But I remember we would be on edge mainly because of mum being on edge.
[18:42] And, you know, you kind of...
[18:44] you take on those feelings and even though you have no idea what's happening, um, but you know, walking the streets and like looking over our heads.
[18:51] Um, I remember coming out of school one time and like, he'd be there.
[18:55] Um, like it, it's now that I think back, like it was really, like, it was really scary.
[19:01] Um, um,
[19:03] And I don't, I honestly don't know how my mum kept persevering through all these different men.
[19:10] And my mum did her very best with what she had for us kids.
[19:12] And, you know, a lot of the time it wasn't good enough, but it was her best.
[19:16] Yeah.
[19:17] You don't have to answer this question at all if you don't want to.
[19:19] I'm just curious to know about your dad.
[19:22] So did you know your dad at all and what happened there?
[19:25] Yeah, yeah.
[19:26] So my mum and dad were quite young when they met and fell in love and had four beautiful children.
[19:32] They split up when I was about three or four years old.
[19:34] So I don't actually have a lot of memories of mum and dad being together.
[19:38] My older two siblings do, and they have a lot of their own stories that are theirs to tell.
[19:43] But what I will say is that when they separated, we were not necessarily kept from that side of the family.
[19:49] Like we still went up and visited on school holidays.
[19:52] We even lived with dad for a little while and got enrolled in school.
[19:56] And a lot of the memories that I do have with dad, you know, involved alcohol.
[20:00] And that was just normal.
[20:01] Like it was just normal for dad to have a drink every night.
[20:03] Um, but when I was 11 years old, my dad lost his life.
[20:07] So quite early on in my, my childhood, we experienced grief, loss, trauma, again, no idea what those words meant back then, but all I knew was I didn't have a dad anymore.
[20:19] How did you find out?
[20:20] Do you remember?
[20:20] Do you have a memory of someone coming to tell you that?
[20:23] Yeah, I do.
[20:23] I actually was sleeping over at a cousin's house that night and I remember walking back to where I was staying and mum, my pop, and my brother were out the front and I remember seeing my brother crying and mum just walks up to me and she just said, your dad's passed away.
[20:38] And then we just embraced in a hug and was crying again.
[20:41] You know, I was 11 or 12.
[20:42] So...
[20:44] You don't really understand what's happening.
[20:47] All you just know is that your dad is not here anymore.
[20:49] Do you remember the last time you saw him before he passed away?
[20:54] I've actually never been asked that question, you know?
[20:59] No, I don't, I don't, I don't know.
[21:02] The only, the only thing that my mind goes back to was when we actually had a stint living with dad and, um, it was like time to go back to mom's.
[21:11] So I remember being in the car driving away, like waving at him, but I don't, I honestly can't remember if that was the last time that I saw him.
[21:20] Um, you know, that's going on 17 years now.
[21:21] A long time ago.
[21:22] Yeah.
[21:22] Like I've lived longer without my dad than I have with him.
[21:26] Is that hard to say?
[21:27] Yeah, yeah, of course.
[21:29] Of course it is.
[21:30] You know, like even now, like learning of stories and trying to understand, um, dad and his upbringing, like, like, I just wish that I had more time with him.
[21:39] I wish that he could see me now.
[21:42] And I know when I got the call up to come play for Bombers that he would have been, um, jumping with joy because he was a Mad Bomber supporter.
[21:51] Oh, wow.
[21:51] Mad Bomber supporter.
[21:52] Yeah.
[21:53] Um, so that was kind of cool to, to.
[21:56] to one, to do that for myself, but to also know that this was my dad's team, you know, and and even though things were quite tough for us growing up and, you know, the things that I know now of my dad and I just I there's no gray area when it comes to the love that I have for my parents.
[22:10] You know, things were hard, but I think things were even harder for them.
[22:14] But it just allows me to have a greater understanding of society and how the world works and the struggles that my parents did face.
[22:22] It's so nice to hear that, that you'd like now as an adult, of course, you can look back and see the struggles that they clearly had.
[22:29] But at the time, as a kid, without the kind of life experience and, you know, we all know what it's like being a kid.
[22:36] It's like it's very much all about you and about like your experience.
[22:40] What was your feelings towards them back then?
[22:43] Yeah.
[22:44] oh, I don't want to be anything like these people in my life.
[22:48] Like, no, like honestly.
[22:49] And I think a lot of people ask, you know, how did you get to where you are?
[22:53] And there's no magic potion, right?
[22:54] Like I love my family and I don't think that I'm better than anyone.
[22:58] None of that.
[22:58] But I knew what I didn't want to be like.
[23:01] And that's what has always stuck with me.
[23:04] You know, it's like, I don't want to be someone who drinks.
[23:07] I don't want to be someone who takes drugs.
[23:09] I don't want to be someone who accepts, you know, this this type of abuse.
[23:13] I just didn't want to be like that.
[23:15] And so I didn't know how I was going to get out of that.
[23:18] I just knew that that's what I didn't want.
[23:20] So every everything that I did was like a step closer of moving away from that lifestyle.
[23:26] And when I talk about these things, it's not to bring shame to my family.
[23:32] It's not at all.
[23:32] It's just to talk about the real life things that we experience and face in our homes, in our communities, and that so many of us in society do, but we don't talk about it enough.
[23:42] I think it comes through in the way you talk.
[23:44] It's like beautiful the way that you're able to talk about the struggles that your parents are going through with so much respect for them and love.
[23:53] It really does come through.
[23:54] Yeah.
[23:55] And how about your mum, the relationship with your mum?
[23:58] That must be a, I'm thinking, like to go through that together, to have things like jumping off, you know, apartment buildings together to escape, that must be a very close bond.
[24:11] Yeah.
[24:13] Gosh, when I think about my mum...
[24:16] we had that kind of best friend bond, right?
[24:20] And your very typical mother-daughter relationship, I feel like that wasn't necessarily us.
[24:27] We were so tight and so close that it was just like having like a big sister who was all of our best friends and so many challenges, you know,
[24:38] throughout our childhood, mum was very open with us, like sharing a lot of these stories.
[24:43] And I think a lot of the things that she experienced, she openly spoke about with my older sister.
[24:49] And we all have a different relationship with mum in our own way.
[24:53] And it's funny, I've actually got a text message that says I'm the favourite child.
[24:58] And I have that and she told me not to tell the others, but I do whip it out every now and again, which I know is obviously not true.
[25:04] But for so many years, I used to think that like I had this middle child syndrome.
[25:09] It was like, she was always just picking on me.
[25:11] I remember one time she woke up in the morning and was like, Courtney, get to school, get to school.
[25:14] And I'm like, what about the other kids?
[25:16] Like, why are you just telling me to get to school?
[25:20] And so it may be cringy and a bit cliche now, but I feel like mum always saw something in me.
[25:26] You know, I must have always shown that I had this big loud mouth and, you know, could speak to anyone and wasn't shy when it came to a camera being out.
[25:36] Right.
[25:36] So I feel like she may have all always known that about me and maybe in a weird way, getting me ready for what life was going to throw at me.
[25:45] But the love with my mum has no bounds.
[25:49] And I think now talking about it as an adult, you know, when parents are meant to love their kids unconditionally and it was exactly that with mum.
[25:59] It was unconditional love.
[26:00] And, you know, if she had the right resources and helps, I know that she wouldn't ever want to put her kids through what we went through.
[26:10] And I think now I can look at that and think she...
[26:14] has strength like someone like out of this world, like this strength that she embodied for so much of her life.
[26:23] Like I'm in awe of what that woman, what she went through and what she overcame and still possessed that unconditional love for us kids.
[26:32] But, yeah, tragedy struck our family again when I was 19 years old when my mum was murdered.
[26:39] And I remember that day so clearly because it was the worst day of my life.
[26:42] Oh, my God.
[26:46] I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that sentence before.
[26:51] You don't have to go back to that day if you don't want to.
[26:53] That's okay.
[26:56] Do you remember what you were doing when you found out?
[26:58] Yep, yep.
[26:59] So to go back just a little bit, so when I'd graduated high school and all of us kids, we'd all moved to Perth.
[27:06] So we were all living, working, playing footy in Perth and mum was still in Bunbury and was still unfortunately experienced a lot of the hardships that she was going through but had called us and said, I want to...
[27:16] come to Perth, I want to move to Perth, I want to be present, I want to be back with my kids, with my grandkids, I want to come to footy games.
[27:22] And we were jumping for joy and we were like, yeah, we support this, we want you back just as much as you want to be back.
[27:31] And in the year of 2016 in January, mum made the move to Perth and it was...
[27:37] this version of mum that we got, that we yearned for, for, for so long, because to have her back in our lives, coming to footy games, having dinner with mum, you know, this version of mum where she was glowing, she was so happy and she was clean.
[27:50] And again, the version we knew always existed.
[27:54] And so it was great.
[27:54] It was, it was, it was this time in our lives that I suppose we had just been waiting for, for so long.
[27:59] And how old would have she been at this time?
[28:01] 42.
[28:01] 42.
[28:02] So that was in January of 2016 that she moved.
[28:05] And on March 9th, 2016...
[28:10] It was a Wednesday.
[28:12] I remember ringing mum that morning on the way to work because she'd owed me $20 and I wanted my $20 back.
[28:19] And she didn't answer.
[28:20] I didn't think anything of it.
[28:22] So I knew I had a meeting on that side of town later that day.
[28:25] So I was like, I'll just go and see her then.
[28:27] So I'm driving to this meeting and I drive past Swan District Footy Club, which was my footy club, but my little sister was working there and I thought I better just make sure she's got a feed, like she's all right.
[28:37] Anyway, we're sitting talking, my phone starts to ring and it's my brother.
[28:39] And I said out loud, I was like, oh, my brother never calls me throughout the day.
[28:42] Like, wonder what's wrong.
[28:44] Answered it and he just said, something has happened at mum's house, you need to get there now.
[28:49] And so I screamed for my sister, because you know gut feelings, right?
[28:52] We all have them.
[28:53] And so something was just saying, this is not good.
[28:58] And so we drive to mum's house and I get there and there's police and ambulance everywhere and...
[29:04] a different man that mum had been on and off with for years was at the front and I screamed.
[29:11] I said, what the fuck did you do?
[29:12] What did you do to mum?
[29:13] What did you do to her?
[29:16] And I go to run inside to go find her and the paramedics pushed me out and my little sister and I watched our mum's body come out on a stretcher.
[29:24] And at that moment we still didn't know the severity of the situation.
[29:29] We just knew it was really bad.
[29:31] And the paramedics said to me, like, you need to calm down because you need to drive behind us because we need to go to the hospital.
[29:38] And I don't know what possessed me to do this, but I still managed to call the school to tell them that I couldn't come to this meeting.
[29:45] good manners, I suppose, but we get in the car and my little sister, who's 16 at the time, is next to me and I have no words because I don't know what we were going to go and see and hear.
[30:02] I had no idea.
[30:03] And I'm not a religious person, but I was praying.
[30:05] I was praying to something like, please, please, please don't let this be what we think this could be.
[30:09] Like she's always, she's been in this situation.
[30:12] She's always come out.
[30:12] Like she's been in hospital before because men have abused her, but she's always come home to us.
[30:17] And that drive behind the ambulance was the most eerie, unsettling feeling because you just have no idea.
[30:24] You're creating all these different scenarios in your head, but you don't know anything just yet.
[30:30] We get to the hospital and they put us in a room.
[30:33] My siblings, other siblings start to rock up, family start to come, and I'll never forget the nurse that came in.
[30:39] She was shaking and she had tears rolling down her face.
[30:42] And she just said the paramedics did everything that they could, but your mum has passed away.
[30:49] Later that night he was charged with her murder.
[30:54] Sorry, how old were you at that point?
[30:56] Nineteen.
[30:59] Oh, that's just, it's beyond words really, isn't it?
[31:02] That's horrible.
[31:03] It's, it's so interesting because when, when people say, well, like what happened next?
[31:08] Like, I don't know, because so much of what came next was, was such a blur, like to me and learning about how we as humans can disassociate ourselves.
[31:18] Obviously we don't mean to do it, but so for so long after that period of my life, like I feel like I didn't even exist.
[31:25] I didn't even know what I was doing or I don't remember a lot of it.
[31:28] Cause I just like, as a 19 year old, where do you go from there?
[31:32] Mm-hmm.
[31:33] Like what do you do with that?
[31:36] And so we didn't come from money, right?
[31:37] We didn't inherit any money from mum or dad, anything.
[31:41] So trying to put a funeral on for our mum was extremely hard.
[31:45] Like four kids under the age of 25, no one had any savings, no one had...
[31:50] a safety net and our footy club, Swan District Footy Club at the time, started a GoFundMe page and people from our community, complete strangers, were the ones that, you know, showed us so much kindness and compassion and love in the worst times of our lives just so we could put a funeral on for our mum.
[32:07] Thank you for like, I just can't believe you're able to share that story with us.
[32:10] It's so incredible you can do it.
[32:12] So thank you.
[32:13] Cause I know that I can't even begin to imagine how hard that is.
[32:17] Is there a memory of like the feeling you have, whether it's in a hospital or when you go home that night of like, do you remember the overriding emotion or the primary emotion that you had at that time?
[32:27] This is a good question because I vividly remember this as well.
[32:32] So where I was living at the time was in a suburb called Ellenbrook and my brother was living just maybe 10 minutes down the road.
[32:39] And I don't think I slept that night, but I remember driving back to my brother's house that morning and I was driving and I was screaming in the car by myself, like screaming like...
[32:49] Why?
[32:50] No, like why?
[32:51] Why has this happened?
[32:52] Like punching my steering wheel and just like screaming hysterically by myself in the car.
[33:01] Oh yeah, that's...
[33:03] I feel like I haven't screamed like that since that day.
[33:08] But I just remember like just screaming so loud and just asking why, why, why?
[33:15] And I still feel that same, I feel that pain today.
[33:18] I just don't scream.
[33:19] How old are you now?
[33:25] I am 28.
[33:27] That the yelling in the car, just so angry.
[33:31] And then the fact that you haven't yelled like that in nine years.
[33:35] Because I, what do you think is that that is?
[33:40] Like I don't want to say I bottle things up because I talk very openly about this, you know, but I was someone that for a long time didn't feel like I needed some kind of professional help because footy was the escape, was, you know, a place where I felt normal and it was safe and I could be okay navigating my reality.
[34:00] And I think as I've gotten older, I have really honed in on that, that grief and joy can coexist, right?
[34:05] And it's been nine years since I've lost my mum and...
[34:08] I still feel like I've got so much healing to go because I was stuck in the survival mode, right?
[34:13] It was like, all right, well, I'm still, I'm still bent on that, not wanting to be my lifestyle.
[34:19] And I did make a decision that I wasn't going to let this define me in a negative way.
[34:23] And so there's probably a bit of avoidance along the years as well.
[34:26] Just being like, no, like this is okay.
[34:27] Like, obviously I can't change what's happened, but I still want a life to live.
[34:31] And I probably, um, yeah.
[34:34] hadn't allowed myself to really grieve and mourn the loss of my mum because I was pretty, um, I was pretty determined that, that it wasn't going to define me in a negative way.
[34:45] It was like you had this sense of, I'm going to keep moving forward, keep moving forward.
[34:49] Yeah.
[34:49] Um, which is so understandable.
[34:51] I completely understand that.
[34:53] You remember, um, after it happened, what were there conversations that you had with your siblings?
[34:59] Did you, were there memorable moments you had with the siblings in the, in the coming days?
[35:04] Yeah, I mean, we talk a lot about mum now and like I said, like this is something that I consciously promised myself, right?
[35:16] And I don't want to say that everybody in my family looked at this situation the way I did, but I knew that if I didn't do it this way, I wouldn't be here with you guys today.
[35:26] Like I know that.
[35:28] Yeah.
[35:29] and some people understand this and some people won't but i don't i don't hate this man who killed my mum because hating him is not going to bring her back it's just not um you know people don't understand that because he also pleaded not guilty and so we went to a trial process like 18 months later and i had to give evidence in my mum's murder trial like saying that out loud is i still
[35:55] I still can't believe that that's what happened to us because that's the kind of stuff you see on TV, right?
[36:00] Like on on crime shows, on Netflix.
[36:03] You don't think that that can happen to you, but that was our reality.
[36:06] And that's what that's what we went through.
[36:09] But after that, that's when I made that decision that I was I wasn't going to let it define me in a negative way.
[36:14] And I made that decision that I wasn't going to let him take anything more from me.
[36:18] And so I don't hate him because that's just going to take my soul, my energy, my spirit.
[36:24] And it's just it's not going to bring my mum back.
[36:26] He is where he needs to be because he was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison.
[36:30] And I have a life that I want to live.
[36:34] That's extraordinary.
[36:35] It is extraordinary.
[36:36] Truly extraordinary.
[36:38] Your mum would be so unbelievably proud.
[36:41] Thank you.
[36:41] I hope so.
[36:43] Yeah.
[36:44] Before you beautifully said that you're not religious but you're praying to a higher power in the car, what was it?
[36:53] Honestly, I don't know, but I've always believed, you know, that there is a world beyond us here.
[37:01] And, you know, being Aboriginal people, we are very spiritual.
[37:03] We're very connected to the land, to the dream time, to our dreaming.
[37:07] And so I suppose it was, you know...
[37:10] calling out to my, to my people, to my old people, to my ancestors.
[37:14] But that's just us as, as you know, a culture, we are, we are very connected to this land that, that we come from, you know, we, we come from our mother.
[37:21] And when we go, we go back to our mother.
[37:23] And so I suppose I was just screaming out to my old people and to try to gain some understanding of like what was happening and why this was happening and to, and to help me.
[37:32] Hmm.
[37:33] When you're driving past where your sister worked and you thought, I'll just check to see if she's got a feed, I think you said.
[37:40] Yeah.
[37:42] You obviously care so much for your sister and to look out for her.
[37:48] Did you think about your sister when you were told what had happened to your mum?
[37:53] Yeah, I mean, my younger sister and I navigated through so much hurt and trauma and really just crazy times of like wondering where our next feed was going to come from.
[38:04] Right.
[38:05] So that we were really close, um, growing up, but the relationship we have now, um, is so powerful.
[38:14] Like I wouldn't be here if it weren't for, for that bond that I have with them.
[38:19] Um, but everything I did.
[38:21] I thought about Madison in that I'm going to get emotional.
[38:29] So before this happened, right, so going back to Madison's 16th birthday, I was living in Perth.
[38:34] Madison was still there at the time and I drove down.
[38:36] We had this big party at the house and mum was in a state that we just had never seen, you know, before and it was horrible.
[38:45] It was really scary.
[38:47] And I remember that next morning when I was ready to go back to Perth, I said to Maddie, I can't leave you here.
[38:52] I can't leave you here.
[38:54] This is not right.
[38:54] Yeah.
[38:55] And at that time I was actually living in my friend's storage unit.
[38:59] Yeah.
[39:01] that I created into a bedroom.
[39:03] And I had no idea what we were gonna do, but I just said maybe pack some things cause you're coming with me.
[39:08] And she came and stayed with me in Perth, in our storage unit for some time until some adults kind of stepped in and said like, we need to kind of give you some help and offer you some support.
[39:22] And we all have our own little families who kind of took us in for periods of time, right?
[39:26] And who we are extremely close with and are very much our family.
[39:30] Um, but going back to the, the question about my sister, she, she was the first thought of everything that I did, even after we lost mum and moving to Melbourne.
[39:44] Yeah.
[39:44] It was like so selfish of me to do because all I was thinking about was like, I'm going to leave my little sister.
[39:50] Like, what is she going to do?
[39:52] Um, but I knew I had to do this not only for me, but like for, for them and for her.
[39:57] Um, and yeah.
[39:59] She is someone who has suffered a great amount and she doesn't speak about it a lot because she never wants people to...
[40:09] feel sorry for her.
[40:10] She's never been one to play victim, but the strength that she has, she's a mother now and watching her be a mother has been the greatest thing to witness.
[40:20] Like she is the best mum.
[40:22] And I've often said to her, I was like, I wish you were my mum, you know, like watching you the way that you are with, um, with, with her baby, who I call my son too.
[40:31] Um,
[40:33] again, just shows me that the love that mum had for all of us comes out and it's shown in the way that she loves her boy.
[40:42] And it's been the greatest thing to witness because she's overcome some really dark, scary times and I couldn't be more proud of her.
[40:50] She sounds amazing.
[40:51] She's, she's unreal.
[40:52] She is.
[40:53] And my sister too, my older sister, Sky, our rock, back then and today, like,
[41:02] These women are like my backbone.
[41:05] Like they are.
[41:07] I wouldn't be here for my sisters.
[41:10] They are quite literally the backbone of me.
[41:13] The...
[41:17] The why, it's incredibly powerful, that image of you in the car.
[41:23] I'm struck by the way you were talking about your mum in the months before she was murdered.
[41:28] This glowing woman who was living the best version of her life and that you got those months together.
[41:37] Is part of the why because you felt like you were potentially past this risk happening?
[41:46] Yeah, I mean, like the why, it just seemed for so much of our lives, it was like this red tape, there was always something, you know.
[41:55] It wasn't necessarily like normal for us to sit down and have a family dinner together.
[41:59] That just wasn't how things were, the way we grew up, right?
[42:03] And so for mum to leave everything that she'd done and known and make this big scary choice to want a better life
[42:12] her life and have that relationship back with her kids.
[42:14] Like we were so proud of her and it was like, oh my God, this is, this is what we, this is what we've always wanted, you know, and, and seeing mum for those, you know, two and a bit months.
[42:23] I remember she was volunteering down at the, um, the Salvos and I went down to see her and she grabbed my hand and she was introducing me to everyone.
[42:31] She was like, this is my footy star.
[42:34] Sorry.
[42:41] like just how proud she was of all of her kids.
[42:44] Like she was so proud.
[42:45] And she'd always say, like, I must have done something right because I've got four beautiful kids.
[42:49] She'd call us like an awesome foursome.
[42:52] And then to see her with her grandkids, with my brother's kids, you know, like that, that was, they were just the light of her life.
[42:59] And so to see her...
[43:01] make these changes with essentially everything against her, we couldn't have been more proud for that to only then be taken away.
[43:08] And, and this man that she'd been on and off with for years, like he was, he'd only come back and lived in the house with mum for two weeks.
[43:17] So two weeks was kind of all it took, you know?
[43:21] Well, you, you talk about her proud, how proud she was of you, but it sounds like that pride is matched.
[43:30] Yeah, yeah.
[43:31] And again, you know, hindsight and you wish I could have said this and that, but like, I, I wish that I had said that more often to her.
[43:40] And, and I try not to get stuck in that, you know, um, those things, cause I was a young kid, you know, experiencing a lot of those things and I don't want to disregard my feelings as a young child.
[43:50] Um, and, but when I think about who I've become today, so much of that is because of my mum.
[43:57] Um, she was our, our biggest supporter, our biggest cheerleader.
[44:03] The love had no bounds.
[44:04] And I often reflect now and just think like, I'm so lucky that she was my mum.
[44:09] Mm-hmm.
[44:11] Yeah.
[44:11] Yeah.
[44:12] Beautifully said.
[44:13] Um, when you, I, the logistics of the funeral and all, and that first step sounds unimaginably hard, but I also imagine once that's passed and that part of the grieving process for want of a better term has happened, how do you begin to live a life without mum?
[44:40] I still ask myself that today, you know, it was just her anniversary, um, a couple of days ago.
[44:46] And I think like, how, how have I lived this life without her?
[44:50] And there's so many things that I have now, and it's not about materialistic things, but growing up, you know, you'd wished someone would come and save you.
[44:57] You wish you had this, you wish you had that.
[45:00] You don't realize that the person coming to save you is you as an adult.
[45:04] Um, and so many things that I haven't, like the fact that I could go to Coles and fill a trolley full of food and not worry about who was going to pay for that.
[45:14] Like, I wish I could have experienced that with mum, you know, like we used to steal food from Coles just so we could have lunch or dinner.
[45:23] Um, we had no power on at times.
[45:24] Right.
[45:25] So these things that were horrible to experience and go through as young kids, I don't live that life anymore.
[45:32] And I wish that mum got to experience this life now that I get to live.
[45:38] Yeah.
[45:40] Are there moments that happen for you where you go, I wish mum was here for this right now?
[45:44] What are the... Every, like everything, even this podcast, like I would have loved to have told her about this.
[45:50] You know, we think about the big things, right?
[45:53] Our birthdays, you know, footy games, things like that.
[45:56] But it's the little things.
[45:57] It's like the...
[45:59] The minor inconvenience that may happen to you and you just want to bitch to your mum or you just want, you know, some kind of reassurance like, mum, do you, where were we when we were five years old?
[46:08] Like what happened here?
[46:09] Or what was I like as a kid?
[46:10] It's like all of those little things.
[46:13] They're the things that I, that I miss.
[46:15] If I want to have a bitch about one of my siblings, I can't call it.
[46:19] You know, it's, it's in the little moments that I miss mum the most.
[46:25] There's something – what you said before about the adult version of yourself saving yourself is so profound.
[46:32] This question might make no sense.
[46:34] But how does the adult Courtney save the child, adolescent Courtney?
[46:42] Well, it's funny.
[46:44] There's this – and this is not to –
[46:47] big note or anything, but there's this, um, there's this mural of me in Perth.
[46:50] And I remember when it first came about, I was like, the lady who reached out, she didn't really have many followers on Instagram.
[46:56] And I'm thinking, this is a joke.
[46:57] Like, why would, why would she want to paint this picture of me?
[47:02] Um, anyway, she started to send me updates.
[47:04] I'm like, oh my gosh, she's so serious.
[47:05] Like she is, she's doing this big mural of me.
[47:08] And.
[47:09] When I look at that mural, like I don't see me.
[47:12] That mural represents strength and resilience found on the other side of adversity.
[47:16] But when I go home and I go there, I don't see me as the adult.
[47:20] I see the little girl.
[47:22] And she is clapping and cheering for me because she just always knew that I was going to come back and save her.
[47:28] And when I think about saving her, it's allowing space and a safety net to feel all those feelings that I did as a kid that were just dismissed.
[47:38] So just going back and allowing her to feel and acknowledge those things.
[47:42] Because we didn't talk about feelings.
[47:44] We didn't acknowledge that stuff kind of growing up.
[47:47] I also didn't understand it.
[47:50] But I look after her now and I want to allow space for her because...
[47:58] She was just stuck in survival mode for so long.
[48:02] That's incredible.
[48:03] And so pertinent to the work you're doing now.
[48:08] I feel like this work is beyond me.
[48:10] It's about the ability that we have to be kind, compassion, and hold space, you know, to love and nurture people.
[48:18] We have that ability as humans.
[48:20] And that little girl missed out on some of that.
[48:25] And honestly, I think I just,
[48:31] I just hold that little Courtney so tight and like tell her like you're going to be okay, it's going to be okay because when you're so young and you're experiencing, you know, a lot of hurt and trauma and you're in situations that you wouldn't want anyone to be in but you kind of have this view that the world is just cruel and nasty and horrible and life's not fair.
[48:54] So I hold space for her personally.
[48:57] It's like she's like standing next to me.
[48:58] It's so weird, like little Courtney next to me and she's just like, I knew you were going to come back for me.
[49:03] And so, yeah, that gives me strength because that little Courtney, I don't know, she must have just always known that I was going to come back and do this work.
[49:11] And it's honestly just to acknowledge that that pain and suffering that she had, that she was never really allowed to express or didn't know how to express growing up.
[49:21] Yeah, she's like my little shorty.
[49:25] I don't know if you're able to hear yourself today and like hear what you're saying, but do you feel proud of yourself?
[49:32] No, sorry, I'll ask a more direct question.
[49:34] Do you love yourself?
[49:35] Like when you look back on it and you go, gosh, I love so much love for myself.
[49:40] Yeah, absolutely.
[49:41] Now, for sure.
[49:44] In the mix of it, probably not.
[49:47] But it's only now that I can sit down and really look at the way that I have been able to –
[49:55] navigate life without mum and dad and to learn that grief and joy can coexist and to learn to, you know, shift away from the feeling guilty of living life because it's like, how can I live life without my parents?
[50:10] How can I still enjoy these things?
[50:12] But like I said, they are alive in me and I know that they wouldn't want me to play victim.
[50:19] Like I don't think I'm a victim.
[50:21] I feel like I am one of the luckiest people out there because they're
[50:25] The way that I can see the world obviously is that very much glass half full mentality and I didn't just come up with this on my own.
[50:33] Like this took some time to get to where I am because if it was easy, we all would look at life with a glass half full.
[50:39] We would all be able to overcome, you know, the challenges that we face.
[50:44] It is hard but it's not impossible and that's just what I want to show the world that we aren't what has happened to us and we do have the inherent ability to change the course of our lives if we want to.
[50:54] You know, especially in my community, we talk a lot about the, the international trauma that has been passed down and that lives within us, which is true, but so does strength and resilience.
[51:04] You know, we belong to the longest living culture in the world.
[51:08] And so I hone in more on that side.
[51:11] I think as an adult I can see all of those battles that, you know, a lot of my family tried to fight but didn't win and could have been a lack of resources, understanding, education, knowledge.
[51:23] But me as an adult now, I can see that.
[51:27] And that's why I'm working so hard to really try and break this cycle.
[51:31] You know, I often say like trauma ran in my family until it ran into me.
[51:36] Wow.
[51:37] And so... That's good advice.
[51:39] This work is all for my future kids, all my nieces and nephews, my wider family because I just, we're not meant to experience this type of trauma.
[51:51] But when it's what you've known and you also don't know how to get better,
[51:56] You just accept that, right?
[51:57] But I'm here, I'm here to try and shift that narrative and to show my people that we aren't what has happened to us and we can, and we do have the ability to change the course of our lives.
[52:07] Because trauma, what I've learned is, is not the actual event that happens.
[52:12] It's what happens inside of you.
[52:13] Right.
[52:14] That's what trauma is.
[52:15] And the only good thing about trauma is that you can heal it at any time.
[52:19] It's hard, it's exhausting, it's uncomfortable, but it's not impossible.
[52:25] And yeah, I look back and it's hard for me to say out loud, but I am, I am proud of myself.
[52:33] And I'm sure your mum would be incredibly proud as well.
[52:37] Do you, do you still feel a connection with her?
[52:41] It's funny because when we had to tidy mum's house up after everything kind of settled down, I remember walking in and there was $20 on the bench and she owed me $20.
[52:50] Remember I rang her that morning for $20.
[52:52] And so I pocketed that, right?
[52:55] But what was also left behind was this handwritten quote by mum and it reads, sometimes when things are falling apart, they may actually be falling into place.
[53:05] oh my god wow hang on that was just written somewhere that was mum mum's handwriting written and left in the house and so i've i've got my older sister has the physical copy of it but i've got i've got photos of it um and so when i think the world is against me i don't know i just refer back to that and think no this is this is teaching me something might be a bit uncomfortable right now but but there's a lesson in what's happening right now
[53:32] Wow Like I've even got it tattooed on me Just because it's a nice Just a reminder from mum That like I will be okay I will be okay
[53:41] When you say you've done a lot or to get there, and I cannot even begin to imagine the things you've done, but I would love to hear if there are things or people or actions or moments along the way that come to mind that have allowed you to get to this point of incredible resilience and perspective and hope.
[54:05] Definitely the people.
[54:06] It's the people that I've met.
[54:07] You know, there's a person that comes to mind when you ask that question and it was my first coach at Bombers, Brendan Major.
[54:14] He is a neuroscientist.
[54:16] I'm pretty sure that's his title.
[54:17] Very smart, knows a lot about the brain.
[54:20] But it wasn't until that I started to create a relationship with him and a connection with him that I then kind of let him in to what my life was like, that he was kind of...
[54:32] mortified in a sense it was like oh my god you go through this you experience this and so then to also have someone on the other side help me navigate the things that i was experiencing that i was feeling helping me kind of unpack what trauma does to us you know and our nervous system and he really opened my eyes up to me realizing that like
[54:55] there's nothing wrong with me and I was just dealing and carrying so much heaviness and grief and trauma that he probably was the one who kick-started the idea of like you could probably really benefit from talking with someone to help understand what you're feeling, what you've gone through, what you're going through.
[55:13] He hasn't been my coach for a couple of years now, but we still speak weekly and I'm so thankful for him, but he's only one little speckle.
[55:20] You know, there are so many other people that have been so influential and had such an impact on my life that have helped me navigate this world.
[55:32] I've always said that all coaches should be neuroscientists.
[55:35] I feel like that's a really such a helpful trait as a coach.
[55:42] I imagine for myself, if I'd experienced what you'd experienced, especially thinking about some of these men that were in your life as a child, it would be really hard to see goodness in people.
[55:56] Mm-hmm.
[55:58] Has that been a challenge and what does it mean?
[56:02] What does the phrase like or the goodness or the kindness or what does that mean to you when you think about that?
[56:07] Yeah.
[56:07] Being people.
[56:08] Probably some of my closest people would say that this is to my detriment, but I really do try to see the good in everyone.
[56:15] And...
[56:16] what that has meant for me is getting hurt a few times before I realise, okay, I can't accept this kind of behaviour anymore.
[56:28] But that's after, you know, giving these people that have showed me, you know, some kind of negativity or quite abusive in ways as well.
[56:38] I've still allowed that, the potential for them to show me good.
[56:43] I've allowed that to happen because,
[56:45] I'm not sure if you're talking about like romantic relationships there.
[56:48] I feel like that must be a very challenging thing for you to, and it's a very personal question, so you can completely just say I'm not answering that, but what you've seen and experienced your entire life, I feel like romantic relationships must be a very challenging thing for you.
[57:05] Yeah, definitely growing up probably allowed a lot of things to kind of happen again because it was considered normal, you know, like young, you know, boyfriends and being really jealous and possessive, you know, back in the day, like that was cute.
[57:21] Like, oh, he really cares for me.
[57:23] He really loves me.
[57:24] He doesn't want me hanging out with these people.
[57:26] He's protecting me.
[57:28] And I didn't know any better.
[57:30] So that for me growing up was something that I allowed purely because I wasn't educated and I didn't understand what was considered healthy and unhealthy in relationships.
[57:41] Right.
[57:42] So it wasn't until I really learned these things that then I could be like, whoa, okay, I don't like this.
[57:47] I know what's happening to me.
[57:48] This is not good.
[57:49] Like this is showing red flags.
[57:51] But.
[57:53] That wasn't until I was educated in the space because, again, I was conditioned to think that this was – this is how someone shows love to someone.
[58:01] I've seen it my whole life.
[58:03] I think that's obviously a very, very common hopefully learning, which is that just because he – you know, often he doesn't want me to see these people or hang out with this guy or they get in trouble when they speak to some guy or even look at a guy –
[58:20] That can be misconstrued as like love and care.
[58:24] Absolutely.
[58:25] But it's obviously not.
[58:26] But are you able to explain like what you've learnt about that?
[58:30] Yeah.
[58:30] And just because I think there'll be people who'd be listening and they know it's wrong and they know it doesn't feel right but maybe aren't sure why.
[58:36] Yeah.
[58:36] Yeah, yeah.
[58:37] And I will say that a lot of this education that I know now has come from working with JIRA.
[58:43] They have been incredible.
[58:45] So what I've learnt, like that abuse is fuelled by somebody wanting to control and manipulate another person.
[58:51] Now, this can extend beyond your intimate partner.
[58:54] This can, friends, family, anyone that you have a relationship with.
[58:58] And again, these little signs of jealousy, possessiveness, jealousy,
[59:04] it can be done in ways where it's so confusing to think that this is actually manipulation or I'm being gaslit here.
[59:12] And it's so crazy and really quite scary to see that this is done so often.
[59:17] And one thing that I've learned, it's very easy for people on the outside to say, well, if that's happening to them, why don't they just leave?
[59:24] And what we know is that it takes a woman up to five to seven times to leave their partner before they actually leave.
[59:31] And even when they do, that is the scariest time for them.
[59:36] Five to seven times to actually break up or leave.
[59:39] To actually completely separate.
[59:41] Yeah.
[59:41] And so they'll keep coming back and then it's okay.
[59:43] Gotcha.
[59:44] And so when you think about like, do you know about financial abuse?
[59:47] A little bit.
[59:48] Well, tell me what you know.
[59:50] Well, I only know in terms of like when someone doesn't have like full control of their money.
[59:55] And that's great because I feel like that's what most of us know.
[59:59] So if somebody is being financially abused, imagine, right, they've got control of all...
[1:00:06] finances, you may get an allowance.
[1:00:08] And imagine that woman keeping that allowance hidden somewhere where this person has no idea that that's been hidden and they've got to save that over months to years, whatever it may look like.
[1:00:19] But if they've got them three kids with them and they're trying to escape this abusive household,
[1:00:24] If they've got no car, they've got no money to get in a taxi, to drive, to take them to a family member's house, it's actually quite hard for someone to just up and leave when they literally can't even feed their kids, right?
[1:00:36] Because they have no money.
[1:00:38] And presumably that's kind of the point of the abuse.
[1:00:41] That's right.
[1:00:41] Is that it controls them to not be able to take them.
[1:00:45] And that's exactly right.
[1:00:46] And so abuse doesn't always, it's not always physical, you know, that can, that the fear that that instills in that person is so scary.
[1:00:57] And that's why it takes someone up to five to seven times to leave before they actually do, because they have been plotting and planning this for so long.
[1:01:06] And when we speak about.
[1:01:09] Aboriginal women, so we are 36 times more likely to be hospitalised as a result of family and domestic violence, and we are 11 times more likely to be killed as a result of family and domestic violence.
[1:01:19] 11 times more likely.
[1:01:20] Yeah.
[1:01:21] Now, when I speak about, you know, gender-based violence, I speak and advocate for all women, but I represent Aboriginal women, right?
[1:01:28] And we are so marginalised in this space, it's really quite scary.
[1:01:32] But...
[1:01:33] we aren't just numbers.
[1:01:34] We are the grandmothers.
[1:01:35] We are the mothers.
[1:01:36] We are the daughters.
[1:01:36] We are the sisters.
[1:01:38] And I think often that gets missed when we talk about this, right?
[1:01:41] Because it's really easy to throw around stats.
[1:01:43] But when I try to explain it to my friend, so if I'm sitting here with a group of my friends, if one of us was experiencing abuse, I would say to them, okay, so do you have a mum and dad, a safe space, a home that you could just go to right now?
[1:01:59] And they would all say yes.
[1:02:00] Yes.
[1:02:01] but I couldn't, right?
[1:02:05] Do you have a safety net of money that you could access right now that will set you up somewhere else most of the time?
[1:02:13] Yes.
[1:02:13] For me, even now, no.
[1:02:16] Obviously, there's services and stuff, but in terms of immediate action right now,
[1:02:22] all of my friends would be able to go somewhere and be safe, whereas I wouldn't.
[1:02:27] And so trying to really simplify it and understand it from just a real human perspective makes things a lot easier for people to actually understand how hard it is for people to leave abusive relationships.
[1:02:45] To put yourself in the shoes of someone like yourself and so many Aboriginal women, it really, for the privileged among us who do have a safe place to go and do have that safety net, I think it really does take a moment of just like pause and actually to think about that because I think it's really quite...
[1:03:05] and this is obviously the issue, but it's really quite difficult to imagine how that feels, like not to put words in your mouth, but maybe the loneliness or the kind of that's, yeah, I just think I just wanted to just go over it again just because I think it is a very powerful way to think about that.
[1:03:24] Yeah, yeah, and like I said, you know,
[1:03:27] Gender-based violence is really topical at the moment.
[1:03:30] You know, we've lost 101 women last year to violence.
[1:03:32] We've lost 14 this year so far.
[1:03:34] So it's an epidemic.
[1:03:37] Like, it's a failure.
[1:03:38] It's a failure and I...
[1:03:43] I know that, you know, it's going to take a lot of work to shift the mindset of a lot of people when it comes to this.
[1:03:50] But I think if we have these open conversations about it, like the real life shit, right, like not the stuff that you'll read from a book, like real life lived experience.
[1:03:59] to gain a greater understanding from society, like how hard it actually is.
[1:04:04] And I also want to acknowledge it can, violence can go both ways.
[1:04:07] But when we're talking about this, it is, it is gendered base because it is mostly our men that are killing our women.
[1:04:14] And it's really, it's really, really scary to see those numbers rise and continue to rise.
[1:04:21] But I think if we as a society can understand it, like truly understand it,
[1:04:28] I don't know, I have hope that we can create, you know, safer communities, you know, for our kids.
[1:04:32] But it's going to take a lot of work and we need everybody to want to be a part of this shift and this change.
[1:04:40] Yeah.
[1:04:41] Yeah.
[1:04:41] You mentioned before that you and your mother and you would talk about these violent men and situations.
[1:04:51] I can't begin to imagine how difficult those conversations have been for her.
[1:04:56] What's your recollection of them?
[1:04:58] It wasn't necessarily, you know, we sat down and spoke about it like this.
[1:05:01] It was, it was acknowledged what was happening.
[1:05:04] But I remember we would, um, we would all drag out our mattresses into the lounge room and all sleep out there.
[1:05:12] And we would watch, um, the show once we're warriors.
[1:05:15] Have you ever seen that show?
[1:05:16] Yeah.
[1:05:17] Yeah.
[1:05:18] And looking back now, it's really not funny at all, but we would all bond over that, right?
[1:05:24] Like I would be like, oh, mum, that's you.
[1:05:27] You know, that's you.
[1:05:29] And Sky, you're big sister Grace who cleans up after, you know, these big parties and it's like these younger kids that are crying in the back like, oh, my God, Maddie, that's you and me, you know.
[1:05:38] So it wasn't this...
[1:05:39] Like we know and we always knew that what we were going through was horrible, right?
[1:05:44] But it's almost like we didn't see the way out.
[1:05:47] So that was just our normal.
[1:05:49] And it was so interesting now looking back that we kind of laughed and giggled over something that...
[1:05:55] bonded us so close together because after the giggles it was like that fear and that feeling of being so scared that that was literally what we saw on TV was what we were living and you know to think back at something that we kind of bonded over was also the very thing that took our mum away from us.
[1:06:15] But in terms of asking mum questions about certain things, that wasn't necessarily the case because it was just, again, it was like normalised, right?
[1:06:27] Like it was just like this incident would happen where mum would get violently abused and we would see that.
[1:06:34] Then we'd come together and sleep in the room together and just hold each other close almost until like the next incident happened, you know, so it wasn't necessarily like a...
[1:06:44] sit down, talk to me how you're feeling.
[1:06:46] It wasn't that.
[1:06:47] It was just it was always acknowledged.
[1:06:50] And I suppose we just came together and held each other close in those moments when when we could.
[1:06:58] I something that I find
[1:07:03] bad, for want of a better word, is that often when this issue is brought up, and I was thinking earlier on less about the physical violence and murders and more about situations of financial abuse and behaviour like that, it often gets talked about, I think, in a way that is
[1:07:25] And it adds a level of denigration to the women involved.
[1:07:28] Like it's this sort of like, how did you get yourself in this situation?
[1:07:32] But the longer I live and the more people I meet and stories I hear and you hear about these brilliant, strong, intelligent women who find themselves in situations with awful men like this.
[1:07:49] I think it, I just want to sort of say that it doesn't discriminate.
[1:07:53] Absolutely not.
[1:07:54] For who you are or where you've come from or what you, it's just, it's not the fault of the woman.
[1:08:00] No.
[1:08:00] Because I think it's, it's sometimes not explicitly said, but implied in the way it's discussed.
[1:08:07] Absolutely.
[1:08:07] Absolutely.
[1:08:08] And it's interesting, I didn't know whether I was going to go here with this comment, but the idea that people can still be perpetrators, but then the expectation that we should just as a society, let them come back to community and to settle in.
[1:08:24] So I believe in rehabilitation, right?
[1:08:26] I believe in people being held to the full account when they perpetrate.
[1:08:30] But what also is quite scary is the people who can make decisions for perpetrators to come back in, to play footy, to walking around in community is quite scary because, you know, recently there was a comment made like, guys, I just want from a white man sitting across from a group of women telling them, well, just remember, guys, like he didn't physically abuse anyone.
[1:08:55] Yeah.
[1:08:56] It was everything else, but he didn't physically abuse anyone.
[1:09:00] So just because he didn't physically hurt anyone that we should all be fine and okay with this person kind of being here.
[1:09:07] And that to me makes me so angry that he was okay to justify this person's behavior and let it be known to the wider female community that they need to be okay with it.
[1:09:22] I'm like, why do we continually have to make space for perpetrators?
[1:09:27] Like, what about the victims, right?
[1:09:29] Like football is a place where so many of us come together, we bond over.
[1:09:35] But when it comes to these kind of issues, it's unfortunate that the lines can be blurred because it's like, are you standing against violence against women?
[1:09:46] Or are you happy for talent to mean more than integrity?
[1:09:51] Mm-hmm.
[1:09:52] And so I only mentioned that off the back of that comment because it's something that is happening.
[1:10:01] And like you said, it doesn't discriminate and it affects so many different people.
[1:10:05] And you may not be experiencing it yourself, but I can guarantee you know somebody who is.
[1:10:13] And we come from all walks of life, all different backgrounds.
[1:10:16] And like I said, just because us as Aboriginal women, we are so marginalised, like I advocate for all women and children.
[1:10:22] But this is an issue across this entire country, the world, but it's happening in our own backyards.
[1:10:33] Well said.
[1:10:34] I don't know what to say other than.
[1:10:35] I feel like there's so much more of your life than your.
[1:10:39] Yeah, I know.
[1:10:39] I feel like we're just scraping the surface of your brilliance.
[1:10:45] But it's been an honor to you, hasn't it?
[1:10:47] Episode one of ten.
[1:10:51] You've set up your own organisation now, Warkening, and I just wanted to know, people listening to this will be feeling so much love for you and wanting to support you anyway.
[1:10:59] What's the best way people can support you in the work you're doing now?
[1:11:02] Yeah, it's still in its infancy and to be honest, like I don't even know what I'm doing.
[1:11:07] Like I just feel...
[1:11:08] I beg to differ, Courtney.
[1:11:10] When it comes to the business side of things, like all I know is that I believe in my mission, right?
[1:11:15] I know what I want to do and this is going back to struggling to ask for help.
[1:11:20] Like I probably do need some help in shaping and shifting things
[1:11:25] um, where to next, right?
[1:11:27] Because I've gotten so many cool opportunities that I do have big dreams for Warkening.
[1:11:32] Um, and I think right now the best way, you know, to support is to, um, you know, head to socials, have a look at my website, check it out.
[1:11:40] Um, you know, always looking kind of for sponsorship to reach, you know, more communities, more people, because that, that's the goal with Warkening is to reach as many people as I can.
[1:11:49] And, you know, with this being my sole income, um,
[1:11:54] I hate talking about money, but, um, that's a big part of this work and what I am, what I am, am trying to do.
[1:11:59] So I'm still working it all out and how that's going to look, but I'm also in the process of developing workshops that can be delivered out into schools.
[1:12:07] Like I said, I called myself a CEO, but it's literally just me.
[1:12:10] So it's only me who works for myself, but, um.
[1:12:13] I know exactly where you're at at the moment and it's, um, it's an exciting but daunting part of the journey.
[1:12:18] I will absolutely lock you in for an eight magic with the entire Resilience Project team so we can support as much as possible because yeah, your work is so important and I just feel like saying like, oh, your mum and dad would be so proud, but it just doesn't even like, I mean, if she was excited to tell people you were good at footy, I can't like, she would just be, I
[1:12:38] Yeah, I remember saying it's just so obvious.
[1:12:41] Can I actually read out?
[1:12:42] I found this the other day.
[1:12:43] It was a message from mum and it popped up and it was just like divine timing when I needed it.
[1:12:50] I took this screenshot.
[1:12:51] It said, morning, my beautiful daughter.
[1:12:54] I just want to say that words can't explain how proud I am of you.
[1:12:57] I'm the proudest mum in the world and your dad would be too, I reckon.
[1:13:01] I reckon he wouldn't stop talking about you.
[1:13:02] Hey, he's smiling down on you each and every day.
[1:13:05] Love you to the moon and stars.
[1:13:06] You rock, my beautiful.
[1:13:09] Amazing.
[1:13:10] Well, they've both been smiling down on you today.
[1:13:12] That was just... Yeah.
[1:13:14] And it just, you know, this one's the favourite kid one because this was before a footy game.
[1:13:20] So this one, again, big important footy games, I feel like this just comes to me.
[1:13:25] Good luck today, my superstar.
[1:13:27] Chop up for me, okay?
[1:13:28] I'm so proud.
[1:13:30] And just stay positive.
[1:13:31] Don't try too hard.
[1:13:32] Just play your own game and let your natural talent shine.
[1:13:36] You were born to do this and you get it all from me.
[1:13:38] Ha ha.
[1:13:40] Love you so much and your dad would be as well.
[1:13:42] Just wish he was here to witness how awesome you really are.
[1:13:45] And you are my favourite kid.
[1:13:46] Don't tell the others.
[1:13:51] And so it's so interesting to, you know, to yearn for her.
[1:13:56] even today and I will for the rest of my life, but these messages somehow just make me feel just that bit better.
[1:14:03] And I'm a very spiritual person and I do feel, and I know that they are with me and they are alive within me.
[1:14:10] And I feel like that is what is keeping me going.
[1:14:14] Wow, Courtney.
[1:14:15] I'm so happy that you exist.
[1:14:19] That's brilliant.
[1:14:21] No one's ever said that before.
[1:14:22] Thank you.
[1:14:22] That's a bit of a weird thing to say, but I just feel so, so I'm speaking on behalf of everyone in this room, not just the three of us here.
[1:14:29] I could hear the tears from behind the curtain there throughout that conversation that...
[1:14:35] What an incredible person you are.
[1:14:38] And we are beyond honoured and privileged to be sitting at a table with you.
[1:14:43] Thank you so much for today.
[1:14:45] No, thank you.
[1:14:45] This is, I just can't believe I'm here, you know, after those years of bombarding you with messages.
[1:14:52] And it was all thanks to Penny that we are here.
[1:14:54] But this is a great honour.
[1:14:56] And like I said, I feel like I'm one of the luckiest people in the world to exist, but to be here and, you know, share this with you guys today.
[1:15:04] So thank you so much for having me.
[1:15:05] Thank you.
[1:15:06] Thanks for having me.
[1:15:07] Thank you.
[1:15:11] If you enjoyed this episode, you'll love the Vulnerability Mail.
[1:15:14] It's a weekly newsletter that helps you remain imperfect.
[1:15:16] Each week, we'll send you one vulnerable question inspired by the current episode to help you unpack your own imperfect life.

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