# Professor Tim Spector - Food Fight

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 10 Sep 2023, 1 h 06 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/jwj0i64o1sg0xf1ek9gtaq1r.mp3

Food is such a mystery. Well, I mean, it’s the stuff we eat when we’re hungry, we know that much. But there are so many mysterious things ABOUT food. Like… What actually are healthy foods? What are good fats? Is meat good for you? Is orange juice really that bad? And can food truly be as effective as medicine? Professor Tim Spector has done all the research, written books (link below) and is one of the world’s top 100 most cited scientists. Tim really knows about food and he really wants to help all of us eat better and feel happier. And he’s here to answer all of the questions from students Hugh, Ryan and Josh in The Academy of Imperfection. To purchase Tim's book, Food for Life, follow this link: https://bit.ly/3EvBP6c To learn more about Tim, his other books and his research, follow this link: https://tim-spector.co.uk/ To learn more about Zoe, Tim's personalised nutrition company, follow this link; https://zoe.com/ The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

## Transcript

[0:00] My name's George, and I edit The Imperfects.
[0:02] I grew up on Ngunnawal country, studied on Bundjalung country, and am now living and working on Wurundjeri country.
[0:08] On behalf of The Imperfects, we acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded, and we extend our respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
[0:20] The rich storytelling history of the world's oldest living culture is what we proudly pay homage to when we share stories on The Imperfects.
[0:27] Before we start this episode with Tim Spector, this is not an ad.
[0:31] We just wanted to have a quick chat with you before because this is a bit of a different episode.
[0:37] It's like it's more usually when we talk to people, you know, we have them in the studio and we like have a conversation and we chat and we laugh and stuff.
[0:44] But this one is much more information heavy.
[0:50] But it is so helpful for...
[0:52] Yeah, so I first heard Dr. Tim Spector on one of the really big, I can't remember which one, it was one of the very big podcasts.
[0:58] And I am someone who I am so obsessed in a healthy way with trying to just be healthier and fitter.
[1:06] And one of the big parts of that is what you eat.
[1:09] I mean, we can invent the internet and we can invent- Well, some people can.
[1:14] I know, I probably couldn't.
[1:17] Yeah, you're right.
[1:17] Someone did.
[1:18] Yeah.
[1:19] I remember in year 12, a girl tried, this is 1998, a girl tried to explain to me an email and we're on computers next to each other and she set up an email address and she goes, I'm emailing you now.
[1:28] You'll get that on your computer.
[1:28] I went, that's because our computers are touching.
[1:30] It went like in the core.
[1:31] Touching.
[1:34] No, no, the computer's not hooked up.
[1:35] That's inappropriate.
[1:38] Anyway, we can invent – human beings are capable of inventing the internet, but we cannot agree on what is the best food for our bodies and for us from a health perspective.
[1:50] But there's no – there's so much conflicting – every expert's got a contradicting –
[1:56] take on what we should be eating.
[1:57] And so with that, I always listen to these experts with a level of skepticism thinking, yeah, but someone else is going to disagree.
[2:04] And that's what they'll probably disagree on.
[2:06] I just listened, the first time I listened to Dr. Tim Spector, I thought, yeah, that makes total sense.
[2:10] And that's completely changed everything for me.
[2:12] The link to mental health is really significant.
[2:16] And that's why we're so keen to do it on the show.
[2:18] But it's all aspects of your life about living a healthier and happier life.
[2:22] He covers them with his approach to eating.
[2:24] But Josh, you were saying that even after listening to this, I'm listening to it, but after talking to Tim, you changed your...
[2:30] Yeah, yeah.
[2:31] I mean, I think I sort of mentioned this on the show, but not as well as I could have.
[2:36] It's one of the few things that's genuinely changed my approach to eating.
[2:42] And because it's the first time I've ever heard someone talk about food in a healthy way, talking about how to eat healthily, that has actually made me want to eat more food as opposed to restricting life.
[2:54] It felt kind of life-enriching the way he talks about it.
[2:57] Because food is like...
[2:59] a very important part of my life.
[3:00] I love food.
[3:01] I love cooking.
[3:01] It's one of my favorite things to do.
[3:02] And every time I've tried to eat healthier or read about it, I'm like, well, this is going to destroy close to my favorite hobby, which is cooking.
[3:10] Whereas this time I felt like I can do more of it and do more interesting versions, grow my hobby and be healthier and live a longer life.
[3:18] I was like, this is, it was pretty inspiring.
[3:20] I think, yeah, what's definitely made me, I eat yogurt all the time now because of this episode and kimchi and, you know, all those sorts of fermented things I eat all the time now because of Tim.
[3:32] But yeah, like you said, Hugh, the link to mental health and just like clarity of thought and just how we feel.
[3:39] This is why this was so important to us to get out there and share with you guys.
[3:45] Yeah, there was a little bit of a delay.
[3:47] You won't hear this, we fixed up the delay for you.
[3:49] There was a delay which made it quite funny when you were saying some very funny things and he just didn't hear them in time and we'd move on and then it was sort of...
[3:57] So if you think he doesn't enjoy Ryan Shelton's sense of humour, he does, he just couldn't quite hear it.
[4:02] Well, we can't confirm that he does.
[4:04] LAUGHTER
[4:05] We can never confirm that they do.
[4:07] Well, the no laughter would suggest he doesn't, but the no laughter was because we didn't give him a chance to hear it and we panicked and just started talking again and then he was trying to get away.
[4:16] I'm happy with that story.
[4:17] Thanks, Hugh.
[4:18] It works well.
[4:19] People will buy that.
[4:21] So, yes, this is – I mean, just like Josh said, it was – well, like both of you said, it completely changed the way I eat food and I actually eat – I know that food is a – it's a slightly contentious one to do and I know people have very strong opinions on the second you start talking about food, it elicits pretty strong emotions with people.
[4:41] Josh and I know this all too well with the history of disordered eating in our family.
[4:47] We get that.
[4:48] And that's why we haven't really done an episode on food until this point.
[4:51] But this one, we could not do.
[4:54] So we hope you enjoy listening to Dr. Tim Spector.
[4:56] And we hope also it has a positive impact on you like it has us.
[5:01] We also wanted to acknowledge that food and what we eat can be a really difficult discussion and that for some people, due to various cultural, religious, socioeconomic and health reasons, the suggestions made in this episode may not actually be recommended.
[5:14] So as always, the information provided in this episode is general in nature and we encourage you to seek appropriate medical advice as required.
[5:23] Hello, Codger.
[5:25] You're in ruddy good luck because you've arrived in the Academy of Imperfection, where experts in their fields share their wisdom on the subject of imperfection.
[5:37] Today, fellow Brit and one of the world's top 100 sighted scientists, Professor Tim Spector, is here to educate us on the power of food.
[5:50] If you gave everyone a perfect diet, you switched everyone from their current diet to a perfect diet, you could probably reduce the number of oral chronic diseases by about 70% to 80%.
[6:02] So join students Hugh, Ryan and Josh as they devour a healthy, well-balanced serving of Professor Tim Spector.
[6:15] Well, welcome everybody.
[6:17] We are very excited to let you know we have an international guest for today's episode in the Academy of Imperfections.
[6:23] Yeah, it's very exciting.
[6:25] A bit of an accent, I hope it doesn't tell everyone, but yeah, it's worth it.
[6:29] It's worth it.
[6:30] It's a lovely accent.
[6:31] Lovely accent.
[6:33] We are joined by Dr. Tim Spector, who I think some people may have heard of before.
[6:38] I'm going to, this will bore you, Tim, but I'm going to read part of your bio for a second.
[6:42] Sorry, just for the people out there who don't know Tim's work, Tim is an award-winning scientist.
[6:47] Before you get into that, I feel like people are dying to hear the accent.
[6:49] So, Tim, can you please reveal?
[6:52] What do you want me to say?
[6:52] In your natural one.
[6:58] Sorry, yes, I'm a very posh English accent from London.
[7:02] There it is.
[7:03] Hello, everybody.
[7:05] Tim is an award-winning scientist and author with over 1,000 original articles published in some of the world's top scientific journals, placing him in the top 1% most cited scientists on the planet.
[7:17] He is a professor in genetic epidemiology.
[7:18] That's good, isn't it?
[7:19] That is a very good stat.
[7:20] That's great.
[7:21] I feel like we need to sit in that for a second, just simmer in that piece of the bio for a moment.
[7:25] It's the good 1%.
[7:26] It is, yeah.
[7:27] It's the good one.
[7:30] He is a professor in genetic epidemiology at King's College London.
[7:34] and the leader of the world's largest identical twin study, Twins UK, which led him to write his bestselling book, Identically Different, which looks at our genetic traits and how our environment impacts our genes.
[7:46] He also wrote The Diet Myth, which was the first introduction on the importance of the gut microbiomes for human health for a wide non-scientific audience.
[7:55] It became an international bestseller.
[7:58] And we are going to talk about your new book as well today, Food for Life, Tim.
[8:01] But I think just to introduce you, I mean, for me personally, I have been absolutely in the last two, I'm 42 years old and I've spent the last, I guess, maybe three years of my life being absolutely obsessed with health and trying to be as healthy as I possibly can.
[8:18] And naturally in that, I probably went to exercise first and then I'm going to be
[8:24] After exercise, you know, fanatically for a couple of years, I then went to diet and food and what I'm actually putting into my body.
[8:31] And I listened to so many people and it struck me that we can do incredible things.
[8:37] We can put man on the moon, yet we cannot seem to agree on what we should be eating as the best fuel for our bodies, for our mental health, for our physical well-being.
[8:48] And whenever I heard someone talk about it, I found myself thinking, yeah, but I know an equally credible doctor who completely disagrees and contradicts everything you've just said.
[8:57] And I would say, listening to your stuff, for the first time in this journey of mine, I went, yes, unequivocally, this makes so much sense to me.
[9:09] It's changed the way I've eaten enormously.
[9:12] And we were so excited to get you on the podcast to share what you have learned.
[9:17] Is that a good intro to what?
[9:19] Well, it's what we've got.
[9:21] You never get a compliment, do you?
[9:26] So what I'd like to get to by the end of this interview is what you eat every day, you personally.
[9:32] Yeah.
[9:33] But before we do that, how did you get into, because I know this isn't how you started your journey.
[9:38] You didn't set out to think, right, I need to work out what is the best food for our bodies.
[9:43] How did you get to this point?
[9:45] Well, I've been studying twins for 30 years.
[9:47] I started life as a rheumatologist, which is bone and joint doctor.
[9:51] And I was interested in epidemiology, which is a study of populations.
[9:57] And, you know, so I was always, there was a sort of detective in me that was trying to work out why people got diseases.
[10:04] And I was using twins to do that, nature of inertia, that kind of thing.
[10:09] And I, you know, that led me to study everything possible.
[10:14] So, yeah.
[10:15] I did hundreds of diseases, traits, personalities, preferences, political views, sexuality, sense of humor, you name it.
[10:28] I'd studied it.
[10:28] I then got into the genetic side of it when the genetic revolution hit and we were able to sequence everybody and started,
[10:35] looking at how genetic things were.
[10:37] And I was interested in obesity, trying to find obesity genes and where weight was put down.
[10:44] We also did a little bit on food preferences, how genetic they were, you know, why garlic, whether you like garlic or not is genetic or not, et cetera.
[10:55] And on that
[10:58] So on that journey, I was discovering lots of interesting things, was part of big concern to finding these genetic genes.
[11:04] And originally, we thought there'd be one gene for each trait.
[11:08] And of course, it turned out that was ridiculous optimism.
[11:12] And there are about thousands of genes, for example, that control something like obesity or blood pressure.
[11:21] And it was really everything I had my own personal experience that I...
[11:28] really got into this in a big way because up to that point, really, epidemiologists and doctors generally had said, well, the nutrition world, you know, it doesn't really know what it's doing.
[11:39] It's very dull.
[11:40] The studies are tiny.
[11:42] There's no funding in it.
[11:43] And if you're academic, you've got to follow the money.
[11:46] Otherwise, you can't actually do decent science.
[11:50] So no one in my sort of position was really,
[11:54] doing that with nutrition in any big way because it was just sort of so seen as backward and uh not interesting and there was this general thing about fats and you know and there's a bit of disagreement but it you know it it didn't really rub off much on me and i was just taught as a doctor
[12:12] low-fired diet's the way to go, high-starchy fruits, try and eat a bit of fruit and vegetables, and the rest will take care of itself.
[12:23] And, of course, that was what I was doing as an individual as well up to the point about 12 years ago when I was skiing in the Dolomites in Italy and had what I call a micro-stroke.
[12:40] at the top of a hill where I suddenly got double vision and my blood pressure shot up.
[12:46] And that was a frightening moment because obviously, you know, I was in the early 50s, thought I was fit and healthy, didn't want to, you know, suddenly get some brain tumor, you know,
[13:01] stroke whatever it was it turned out to be a very very minor stroke it was enough to give me a real big scare and that point I decided to you know find out what was best for me and that you know what am I going to do for my health and that's how I discovered all the advice you know when I
[13:26] Nothing was based in science as I knew it.
[13:29] It was based on studies of 10 people done 30 years ago.
[13:32] No one had questioned, like, you know, the eat little and often, or, you know, only eat all your main meals in the morning, or these sort of things.
[13:41] There were tiny, ridiculous studies that weren't based on any solid evidence.
[13:49] And of course the whole fat debate
[13:52] got blown apart and you know it started about 12 years ago and we realized that actually that that data was very unreliable based on these observational studies so there was that that moment that actually coincided with me looking at twins and finding out looking at why identical twins were different and that was you know
[14:12] If you've been saying twins for 30 years, you get through these phases of, you know, twins are really cool when you see them identical, they're so similar, you know, where they hold a billiard, exactly the same, they choose the same brands of cigarettes or whatever it is.
[14:29] Then, whereas they do die of different diseases, they die of different times, you know, aging isn't really similar in them.
[14:37] And one gets cancer, the other one doesn't.
[14:39] One gets depression, the other one doesn't.
[14:41] What explains that for people who are clones, who live most, you know, 18 years of their life in exactly the same situation?
[14:49] And I'd been looking at that for years.
[14:52] And it was the only way I looked at their gut microbes, I saw they were massively different.
[14:57] in identical twins or you know or even one it was similar to one identical twins there was no genetic component and then we shared about a quarter of their microbes and so for me that was a bit on our harm moment that came just at the same time as i had my little health crisis so suddenly i said you know what this is so important this could explain the
[15:21] everything I've been seeing up to now.
[15:23] And this missing part of the puzzle, the gut microbiome, could explain why everyone's got nutrition wrong up to that point.
[15:30] And so that really motivated me and said, right, I'm going to dedicate the rest of my career to this area, gut microbes, nutrition, and try, and before I hang up my stethoscope, really sort something out,
[15:48] See if we can actually, while they're just writing more and more papers, try and do something that's really going to help people and change our whole idea about food.
[15:58] And I've gone on that journey as well.
[16:00] So that's the way.
[16:03] I've changed my diet in the same way.
[16:06] Would it be, I feel like it'd be helpful.
[16:07] This might be a really silly question for a lot of people, but what is a microbiome, what is it?
[16:14] Gut microbiome.
[16:15] Gut microbiome and a microbe.
[16:17] Would you be able to explain that quickly?
[16:20] Yeah, the gut microbiome is a term we use for the community of microbes we have in our gut, maybe our lower gut, our intestine, our colon, 99% of them.
[16:29] And they are hundreds of trillions of them.
[16:32] So by the same or slightly more than we have cells in our body.
[16:37] So you could say we're more than half microbe.
[16:39] Wow.
[16:40] And we evolve from them and maybe they...
[16:44] you know, evolved a human shell to live in, which keeps them comfy.
[16:48] It's another way of looking at it.
[16:51] Okay.
[16:51] And so they have little microbes, microscopic organisms that you can, you microscope to see, which they first saw in the 17th century.
[16:59] And bacteria are the ones we mainly talk about.
[17:02] That's because we know more about them.
[17:04] There are also other little guys there called archaea.
[17:07] There are also fungi, yeasts, viruses that prey off the microbes and eat them when they get overgrown.
[17:14] And there are also little parasites in there that we're discovering more and more about that sometimes are actually good for us.
[17:21] And together, this community, we're discovering what really they do.
[17:28] And the best way to think of it is a series of mini pharmacies
[17:33] Okay, so these guys take the food you eat and convert those into other chemicals that are thousands of different chemicals that supply your immune system around your gut, where most of the immune cells are, and are really important for your immune system.
[17:52] Also, your nervous system and your brain controlling your mood, your appetite, your metabolism, etc.
[17:58] They're key for fighting cancer, aging, etc.
[18:02] breaking down chemicals as well.
[18:05] And they can act to interfere with every medication, including antidepressants, et cetera.
[18:12] And so it's really, really important that we understand this new virtual organ in our bodies that we now understand it has a raw function rather than just being there as a byproduct of our poo.
[18:27] And so that's the real difference.
[18:30] It's really, you know, really key that we add this to our understanding.
[18:34] And it really changes our whole approach to eating, nutrition, what we put in our mouths, because everything has some effect on these guys.
[18:43] So that's the microbiome.
[18:44] It's probably a bit immature of me to giggle when you said poob.
[18:47] Sorry about that.
[18:49] So this might be an impossible...
[18:51] I don't know if this is an impossible question to answer or not, but when we think about food going in there and getting processed by our stomach, how much of it is being processed by our cells as opposed to this microbiome?
[19:04] Is it a lot more of the work being done by these other organisms or is it more us or is that a silly way of looking at it?
[19:11] It depends what you're eating, really.
[19:13] So if you're eating ultra-processed refined food,
[19:18] then it's mainly absorbed high up in your intestine, and your microbes don't get much of a look in.
[19:26] Right.
[19:26] But if you're eating real food, so the whole grains or whole plants or nuts, seeds, vegetables, anything with a structure and fiber in it, that will travel down to the lower gut where most of the microbes are, and they will be doing the vast majority of the work.
[19:47] We evolve with microbes so that humans only have about 20 chemicals to break down food, whereas microbes have maybe tens of thousands.
[19:56] Oh, wow.
[19:57] So the very simple stuff, breaking down sugar or, you know, a bit of supermarket bread or something or a tam-tam or whatever it is, is going to happen right up here, right?
[20:07] I mean, ironically, you got the name wrong of the biscuit and the word you got wrong is your name.
[20:13] It's a Tim-tam, not a tam-tam, but...
[20:17] A Tim Tim would have made more sense to you.
[20:19] What is a Tim Tam?
[20:22] I do, but I'm a bit rusty on mine.
[20:24] No, no, it's... Well, then, okay.
[20:27] You're the last person who I think should know what a Tim Tam is based on your diet and what you eat.
[20:34] So, Tim, I've got two questions.
[20:36] So, the first one is obviously, from what you've just said, the more different communities we have or the more microbiomes we have, the better.
[20:44] Is that right?
[20:45] The more different species, yes.
[20:47] So, generally, the greater the diversity, the healthier our gut is and...
[20:54] That's in a way interesting because compared to our ancestors or hunter-gatherers, we've lost about 50% of our species perhaps in the last 70 years.
[21:08] But in all the studies we do, there's a general correlation between the lack of diversity of species and poor health.
[21:18] And so it's a pretty good sign of your health if you get a snapshot
[21:23] of your gut microbes and that, you know, there's not many of them.
[21:28] And I mean, the other way that we're doing with it, now that we've got this huge database with the company Zoe, we're doing, we're seeing that actually it's the ratio of good bugs to bad bugs.
[21:39] It's another sign of, it's perhaps a better sign, but in general, conceptually, it's easy to think of this diversity of different species and, and,
[21:51] We know the diversity of species in your gut is really important because that means you've got more chemicals you can produce.
[21:58] You're more flexible when faced with some threat.
[22:03] You've got all different kinds of immune chemicals you can produce.
[22:07] Your brain chemicals can change.
[22:09] You're much more resilient.
[22:10] I think that's the way to look at it.
[22:13] And people who are eating chemicals,
[22:16] non-diverse diets, really poor diets, get less and less of these over time as they're basically starving their gut microbes.
[22:24] And this is what's happening in the UK and Australia with ultra-processed foods as we're killing our microbes off essentially.
[22:34] Yeah.
[22:35] It would be, it feels like the right time to bring up something I wanted to bring up because I've started, I've just started reading the book.
[22:41] I'm only just sort of, you know, 40 or 50 pages in, but I am absolutely loving it.
[22:46] But something that grabbed me pretty early is this, because how do you know if you've got good microbiome or not in there?
[22:53] And you mentioned how it can be, it's an expensive process to get it done in a lab and tested, but you guys have come up with a test or something that people can do.
[23:02] quickly and it might make Ryan giggle again.
[23:04] But do you want to explain what that is?
[23:06] Because it seemed like such an easy thing to do.
[23:10] Yes.
[23:10] So it's called the transit time or the blue poo test is the other, you know, the blue poo challenge.
[23:17] That's fine.
[23:18] So if you go on the Zewa website, you can probably still find the instructions for the blue poo challenge.
[23:23] But basically you get some bright blue food dye and you stick it in some food like a muffin.
[23:32] You eat it and essentially time when it comes out until it comes out the other end.
[23:39] So if it's bright blue, there's not much else that does that, ends up in the toilet like that.
[23:46] And it's actually quite an effective way of giving an assessment of your gut microbiome because the transit time, the number of days or hours it takes to get through, does tend to correlate with the diversity of your gut microbes.
[24:02] So I think particularly...
[24:07] in Anglo-Saxon countries, we've got a bit of a taboo about talking about our bowels and our bowel habits and our stools.
[24:14] We don't tend to show it to our doctors or our friends and family like they do in other countries.
[24:20] And I think it's really important we do get around this because most people think they're healthy,
[24:26] They go to the toilet once every two or three days.
[24:28] They think that's fine.
[24:30] By laxatives think that's normal.
[24:33] And it's not.
[24:35] We should be going once or twice a day.
[24:37] And the transit time should be between about 12 and
[24:45] 20 hours to be in that healthy range and the average australian is way over that just like the average brit so that's a good way to get an idea what you're doing and it's another way to just think about you know your bowel habits um are you bloating a lot are you you know do you get intermittent diarrhea and constipation these are all signs your gut is
[25:07] is unhealthy if you can't afford a proper test.
[25:11] But hopefully these tests are getting cheaper.
[25:13] So in 10 years, they will be pretty much routine for everybody.
[25:17] Great.
[25:18] I think like, I mean, I imagine, because I know a lot of people who, you know, food is such a comfort and they know they don't eat well and they probably don't need to do a microbiome test to know that what they're eating is not healthy.
[25:32] But
[25:33] but they get so much enjoyment and pleasure out of the food that they eat to convince them or for them to convince themselves or for anyone to convince them to change their diet significantly, particularly to the extent that you suggest in what you suggest that we eat on a daily basis, which is like whole foods and non-processed foods.
[25:53] It takes a pretty convincing argument for most people.
[25:56] And I think what a lot of people I know...
[26:00] What they're after is like, yeah, but what's in it for me?
[26:04] Like, you know, what am I really going to get from this?
[26:07] Of course, they know that they'll be healthier and they know that that's a good thing, but they might not be at an age where they think that's a problem yet.
[26:15] So I guess one of the things, and particularly this ties in with our podcast and what we talk about a lot, is mental health.
[26:22] And what I've found even in the last couple of years, like I've changed what I eat quite significantly and I've noticed a massive change in how I feel and just my clarity of thought, just general day-to-day feeling as opposed to this is completely separate from how I look or any sort of vanity things, but just how I feel.
[26:43] I've noticed a huge difference.
[26:45] And I just wondered whether you could talk a bit about the effects of changing your microbiome and concentrating on that with what you eat and how that affects how you feel.
[26:56] Yeah, it's...
[26:58] I think you've got to have a more holistic approach.
[27:01] So what I'm advocating here is, yeah, one of the effects is to improve your gut microbiome.
[27:09] You do that by eating up a greater diversity of whole, you know,
[27:13] more plant foods, more whole foods.
[27:15] I want people to eat fermented foods as well, which are good for your gut microbes, regular fermented foods.
[27:20] Can you give examples of fermented foods?
[27:22] Fermented foods, yeah.
[27:24] So everyone knows yogurt.
[27:28] Then you've got a sort of super yogurt, which is kefir, which is fermented milk, and which has like 10 times the amount of microbes in it.
[27:38] And if you can get...
[27:42] Good quality cheese is they have some microbes in it.
[27:45] It's hard to get raw milk cheese in Australia for archaic rules.
[27:49] How about a triple crème bray?
[27:52] Is that triple crème bray?
[27:54] Yeah.
[27:55] Yes.
[27:56] If it's genuine and it hasn't been, yeah, and it's going to go moldy, that'll be good for you, yeah.
[28:03] Tim, that's huge cheese.
[28:04] That's great.
[28:06] So cheese generally, if you look at the epidemiology of cheese eating, people who eat cheese are healthier than people who don't eat cheese.
[28:14] but avoid anything that says low fat on it.
[28:16] That's the general rule.
[28:17] That's huge.
[28:19] Anything that says has a health claim on it and is in packaging is ultra-processed ground.
[28:25] Wow, that's such a good rule.
[28:26] That's the general scientific rule.
[28:28] Okay, the scientific rule.
[28:31] And so when I talk about improving your gut health, it's all the good things to positively eat, right?
[28:38] And we try and get people to eat 30 different plants a week.
[28:42] Okay, that which...
[28:44] you might find is a high bar, but you don't have to get there on day one, but it's an aspirational idea and includes nuts and seeds and herbs and spices.
[28:55] And it's not as hard.
[28:56] There's lots of hacks you can do.
[28:59] And coffee is included in that?
[29:00] Coffee would be?
[29:01] I include coffee as one of my plants, yes, because it's a fermented bean.
[29:07] And it's been shown that coffee,
[29:09] Up to five cups a day is actually good for your heart and your health.
[29:13] Up to five?
[29:13] That's great.
[29:15] Five cups of coffee?
[29:16] I've got to drink more coffee.
[29:17] Yeah.
[29:17] I mean, some people, you know, do get jittery with it, but there's a lot of individual variation.
[29:23] But all the studies now show a clear benefit of...
[29:29] moderate coffee drinking over non-coffee drinking.
[29:32] That's amazing.
[29:33] So it's better than tea, even better than green tea, which is obviously better than black tea.
[29:37] Wow.
[29:38] Wow.
[29:40] And because it provides fiber, actually, three cups of coffee is about...
[29:48] four or five grams of fiber which is you know probably a third of the australian intake so you know that's incredible we haven't thought of coffee in this way because our reductionist view is coffee oh that's just caffeine that's bad for you right that you know it's an evil drink we haven't actually thought of coffee as a plant haven't thought of it being fermented which means that it gets more it's more complex it's got more flavor that's why it's got
[30:15] more complexity just like wine produces these defense chemicals called polyphenols it gives it its bitterness and that you know means it's good for you and your microbes love that stuff they feed off it so this is why many of these foods once you've got this different mindset about your gut microbiome are different and so you know what was the enemy now becomes your friend
[30:39] And things that we were told were good for us, like low-fat ultra-processed bronux, are actually the enemy because they contain lots of things that attack our microbes, like artificial sweeteners, like emulsifiers.
[30:57] like gums, like all these artificial flavorings and colorings.
[31:03] They're the enemy.
[31:04] Because there are such things as good fats and bad fats, aren't there?
[31:08] There are, yeah.
[31:09] And extra virgin olive oil should be everyone's going to fat of choice because it's proven without doubt to be super healthy, however much you have on it.
[31:23] whether you put it on your chips or you put it on your salad, it's still going to be good for you.
[31:29] And whereas low-fat spreads, some of these cheaper vegetable oils are not nearly as good and in ways we still don't completely understand, but it's most of the manufactured fats that were really bad for us.
[31:48] So it's the idea that...
[31:52] we follow these low fat labels is completely erroneous that you know we should just be looking for high quality foods high quality fats everything should be about quality and that's where i hate this idea of calories and fats as as being bad because they are leading us all down the wrong direction when we pick our foods and this is really what the whole book is about is about trying to
[32:15] tell people a really different set of rules when they're going shopping or, or buying things, uh, that, you know, it's shocking to some people because, you know, we've been bombarded with this message for 30 years that, uh, turns out to be completely wrong.
[32:31] So, uh, getting back to where we were, I'll, I'll, I'll go on this holistic view.
[32:35] I think we've got to, um, uh, and the mental health aspects.
[32:40] What is interesting here is, um,
[32:43] I had no idea until I started experimenting on myself the effects of a normal ultra processed food diet, even if it was low, you know, supposedly healthy, if it was low calorie, low fat.
[32:56] And I did some experiments with this company Zelle that I co-founded, which really is doing these tests regularly.
[33:06] to try and personalize nutrition for you.
[33:09] So it does, it gives you, it's, it's commercially available in the US and the UK, not yet Australia, but we've now done about 70,000 people.
[33:21] So everyone has had an identical meal at the same time of day.
[33:25] And which is a muffin and get a glucose monitor on your arm.
[33:30] Have you seen these little,
[33:32] uh cgm devices oh yes yeah they're like like bottle tops circle yeah like bottle tops that stick on your arm and they attach my bluetooth to your phone and get a readout in real time of your blood glucose okay so incredible technology and you show the peaks and the troughs as you you know
[33:53] and that lasts for two weeks so you can do all kinds of tests on that we also test your blood fats uh after the muffin six hours after to see what or three hours after or six hours after what's ever what's left in there and we measure your microbiome uh testing with genetic testing and it's those three together it gives idea of what's going on but during this whole process i i
[34:19] For 24 hours, myself and eight other people from the company Zoe were eating these muffins.
[34:25] And we're only eating muffins.
[34:26] So every four hours, we'd eat, I think, three muffins.
[34:31] And it was the idea that would give us 2,000 calories in a day.
[34:36] We look at our responses and I've never felt so sick in my life.
[34:40] Yeah.
[34:40] I can imagine.
[34:40] Like what sort of muffins are they?
[34:41] Like choc chip?
[34:42] Like vanilla?
[34:43] No, they were just flour, fats, but they had high fat content, high sugar fat content.
[34:50] So sugary, fatty muffins.
[34:53] And they spiked my sugar right up into the diabetic range.
[34:58] And then it dropped right down again and it spiked up again.
[35:02] And you said these, you know, every three hours, I had these massive spikes like this.
[35:06] And my brain, I couldn't concentrate.
[35:10] I couldn't work.
[35:11] I was trying to work on a book, couldn't do anything.
[35:14] And I suddenly realized this connection was,
[35:16] between food and mental health and mood.
[35:19] That was my first real idea.
[35:21] We had to stress the system because, you know, life's so complicated.
[35:25] You can't normally focus and say, what's this food doing to me?
[35:27] You're distracted.
[35:29] But in this scenario, absolutely sore that these peaks and troughs
[35:33] were playing havoc with my mood and my ability to concentrate.
[35:37] And I think that was, um, about seven years ago.
[35:40] And it was a real wake up call to me.
[35:43] And since then people have shifted from the average Australian diet, for example, which is very similar to the average UK diet, which is, you know, is majority of ultra processed foods in the diet.
[35:57] Um,
[35:59] and they've got rid of these sugar spikes, and they've got rid of the fat peaks.
[36:05] And they do the Zoe eating the Zoe way, which is you get a squirrel and you eat in a holistic way for your gut health to reduce your sugar spikes, reduce your fat spikes.
[36:16] So just after two months of doing that, the majority of people are noticed improvement in their mood and their energy, about 80%.
[36:28] And we were really surprised at that because we weren't expecting those to be the major, you know, the mental effects of altering a diet to be so significant.
[36:39] So as you were saying, that, you know, it coincides with your own experience.
[36:47] But this is now with, you know, 50,000 people's experience.
[36:51] We've done it in a trial as well.
[36:53] So I think that we've totally underestimated the mental effects.
[36:57] part of the fruits we eat and the effect it has on our body.
[37:02] And this is one reason that people get an immediate effect when they change.
[37:08] If they take the time to wean themselves off ultra processed food and get themselves onto something that's good for their gut microbes, they get that immediate effect.
[37:20] But I think it's, you know, and realize that they're probably out buying themselves another 10 years of healthy life.
[37:26] And I think that's the other thing that all these sugar spikes and this mental health and, you know, they're postponing all that stuff about dementia, depression, heart disease, cancer.
[37:41] You know, you're just pushing it 10 years out of the distance, which unfortunately, you know.
[37:47] people on the average Australian diet aren't.
[37:50] And I think that's the difference.
[37:51] So that's what we need to sell is try it.
[37:55] You'll notice the effects on your brain immediately, your mood, energy levels.
[38:01] No one had ever measured energy levels in studies before.
[38:05] Like seen so varied and wishy-washy, but on the app we can now measure it.
[38:10] And it's the number one thing that improves.
[38:14] you know, people, customers who've done the test will write in and say, you know, I had no idea my energy could improve so much just by reducing the stress on the body because these peaks...
[38:26] basically each time they are stressing, they're causing a little bit of inflammation.
[38:30] That probably causes some inflammation in the brain.
[38:33] You can just reduce that.
[38:34] It improves all the other things in life.
[38:36] So sleep, energy, mood, it all starts coming together.
[38:41] So food really is important for mental health.
[38:44] I think that's true.
[38:45] And we could talk about the studies looking at dietary changes in depression, probiotics in depression,
[38:54] all of which were as well as antidepressants or sometimes better.
[38:59] So I think we've underestimated the power of food as medicine, particularly in mental health.
[39:06] And so there is sort of like connection between eating well and serious illness?
[39:12] Such as depression.
[39:14] Such as depression or even cancer.
[39:15] Are there sort of ties to those things?
[39:19] Oh, yeah.
[39:19] I mean, if you gave everyone a perfect diet...
[39:23] you switch everyone from their current diet to a perfect diet, you could probably reduce the number of oral chronic diseases by about 70% to 80%.
[39:33] Wow.
[39:34] That is enormous.
[39:36] And it is totally preventable.
[39:38] unlike genetics or... And it's easier to do that than to tell everyone to be a superb athlete or jog for 10K a day.
[39:53] This is something that is...
[39:56] In institutions, in schools, in hospitals, the government, instead of subsidizing crap food...
[40:06] And essentially, you know, it's cheaper and cheaper.
[40:10] If they wanted to, you know, save health budgets, et cetera, and do things they could, that would be the number one priority.
[40:20] Just while you mentioned athletes, I was thinking about, I heard you talk about the impact that exercise.
[40:26] I mean, a lot of people will think weight loss when they're talking about food.
[40:29] It's the first thing they think about.
[40:30] A lot of people are striving for right or wrong.
[40:32] That's kind of what they're striving towards.
[40:35] The impact of exercise on weight loss, I've heard you speak on that before and I found that really fascinating.
[40:41] Yeah, like everyone, you know,
[40:44] Years ago, you know, he used to start going to the gym when he felt a bit flabby and said, okay, I can get this off.
[40:51] And I thought he didn't have to worry about your diet if you were into exercise and sporting.
[41:01] And all the evidence now is very clear that exercise is completely useless as a way of initiating weight loss.
[41:10] It has really no place in it.
[41:13] Wow.
[41:13] Wow.
[41:14] And that surprised a lot of people.
[41:17] Even the vibrating belts that, like, rub around your belly?
[41:24] Of course they work.
[41:24] I mean, you know, they're gold standard.
[41:28] That was like $450, Tim.
[41:30] Yeah, that's good to know.
[41:34] Thanks.
[41:35] Yeah, keep the belt on.
[41:37] But there's no point running.
[41:40] And what these trials actually show is that if you take 100 people
[41:45] who want to overweight and you give, you know, 50 of them are given a PT instructor and 50 are just told to read leaflets or whatever.
[41:56] And they're told to, you know, try and lose weight.
[42:02] There are equal numbers who gain weight on the exercise armors lose weight.
[42:06] That's what it's saying.
[42:06] So it's never to say there's nobody who it works for, but on average you're just as likely to gain weight as loons weight.
[42:15] Okay, that's what the studies can be shown.
[42:17] Now, there is some small evidence that once you've lost weight, that exercise can help you, you're not going to rebound as quickly when you regain weight.
[42:30] But I think we have to totally look at this whole, you know, the fraudulent weight, calorie weight industry is responsible for a lot of myths.
[42:40] You know, and it goes along with this whole idea of,
[42:44] calorie restriction being you know in calorie counting be a good way of weight weight losing weight clearly we're getting uh much more overweight and obese than um 50 years ago and we've had the same advice you know count your calories and uh exercise more and it's failed miserably and we've actually got worse so yeah
[43:11] It's understanding what your body does in response to either...
[43:15] When you exercise, what does your body do?
[43:19] It reduces the burn rate of the calories out, so your metabolism slows right down, and it triggers appetite sensors in your brain to say, eat more.
[43:33] That's why your mum said, you know, go out and play...
[43:39] to get out and get an appetite, go for a walk, you know, get your appetite up.
[43:43] And that's, it's natural.
[43:44] So that's, you can't fight that nature.
[43:46] So the more you exercise, the more your body says, I'm not going to let you lose weight because, you know, gosh, that would be terrible.
[43:54] You know, you might start losing muscle.
[43:58] I've got to conserve things.
[43:59] And that's from our ancestors.
[44:01] You know, when we were running around, we didn't have this massive surplus of junk food.
[44:06] And similarly, if you reduce calories, you get a Weight Watchers and you're counting calories, even if you can, which is bloody impossible.
[44:18] And most people will lose weight in the first few weeks.
[44:23] And then what does your brain do?
[44:25] It starts ratcheting up the hunger hormones, the appetite.
[44:31] And so every day, for every kilo you're taking off,
[44:35] your body is trying to make you eat another 100 calories appetite-wise.
[44:40] So it's just like a thermostat that you're just turning up.
[44:44] And so most people get to about six weeks, and then they crack, and they say, oh, I've got to get some carbs inside me, and then they break.
[44:54] So that's why all the studies...
[44:56] 80% of people, you know, within a few years have returned to where they started, even in the tough clinical trials where they're supervised.
[45:05] So most people can't do it.
[45:09] There are a few, a tiny minority that seem to have that power, maybe lower appetite signals for them, but...
[45:19] Most of us humans can't do it that way.
[45:23] And therefore, it's the wrong approach.
[45:25] And that's really an important message that just eating low-calorie junk foods is also wrong because we now know that ultra-processed foods increase your appetite signal much more than real food.
[45:40] And that's part of their main danger is they make it addictive.
[45:44] You know, a bit like cigarettes, got that extra bit in, like they used to add sugars into cigarettes to make them even more tempting and addictive.
[45:52] That's what ultra-processed food does.
[45:54] On average, you would consume an extra 500 calories.
[45:58] That's about, you know,
[46:01] 20% of your intake extra just because of the fat style of food it is rather than the ingredients.
[46:08] So it's the way it's processed.
[46:10] It's designed to make you overeat.
[46:13] And that's why a lot of people quit smoking.
[46:17] They have these huge appetite drives, and they put on weight and they go for ultra-processed foods.
[46:24] So the two are very similar.
[46:26] They're using the same techniques as the sugar and the sugar.
[46:29] Yeah, the smoking industry.
[46:33] One of the things that I found really interesting in beginning the book was that I, having not had a great relationship with my weight over the years, I think I've always catched the thought process and I framed it in that calorie counting weight model.
[46:52] And then reading the book yesterday, I found myself...
[46:55] getting really inspired by the book because it felt like it was giving me a zest for more eating, but just more in a better way.
[47:03] So, I found, for example, when I went to...
[47:05] I had to do the shopping on the way home and I was in a green grocer and found myself picking a few more veggies that I wouldn't usually just to get them into the salad to get more different vegetables.
[47:17] And I just felt like
[47:19] inspired by the book to go out and eat more, but eat more healthy.
[47:22] So just if I can, I didn't feel, I find that so much of the work in this space makes you feel guilty about your choices and the life that you're living.
[47:30] And it's really, and as you would know better than anyone, it is really hard to choose healthy with the architecture, the, um,
[47:39] what's the word, the world in which we live.
[47:41] I can't think of the better word for it.
[47:43] But when you go to a supermarket, there's so much thrust in your face with advertising and trying to pull you away from healthy foods.
[47:50] But this book didn't so much make me feel guilty, but made me feel excited about the incredible world of diverse different vegetables and trying new things and getting new seeds in there and new stuff.
[48:02] And it just made me feel really excited about eating.
[48:04] So I don't know if there's a question there, but I just wanted to congratulate you for the tone in which this book's read.
[48:09] written in that I find it a really inspiring read rather than something that makes me feel bad about the choices I've made in the past.
[48:17] Yeah, well, that was deliberate.
[48:17] I mean, I got fed up reading books that, you know, demonize certain foods and say you must never eat anything with gluten in it or lectin in it or with this, you know, particular thing.
[48:32] And then you have to have a very reduced diet that's very narrow and you've got to be obsessed with eating only these things and you mustn't have nightshades because, you know, they're poisonous and you mustn't have this and, you know.
[48:43] And, you know, the idea is don't demonize anything, you know, and you can still, you know, have your donut occasionally if you know, but you just know what it is, right?
[48:54] It's a treat.
[48:55] And if you focus on people eating more diversely,
[49:00] It's fun.
[49:01] And your taste buds start to change.
[49:03] You like to see that difference.
[49:06] They want everything to be beige on your plate.
[49:08] And this 30-a-week rule, I think, really resonates with people.
[49:13] And, you know, it becomes a bit of fun.
[49:15] And you're trying to get out of those ruts.
[49:18] We're just going to the supermarket, filling your trolley with the same old crap.
[49:21] You know, it may have been healthy originally, but, you know, by having exactly the same things all the time, the same salad at lunchtime or whatever it is,
[49:30] you're not really bringing yourself justice and exploring all the fantastic food tastes.
[49:35] So I think it's only about exploring more foods.
[49:38] And I think this is why it is a positive message.
[49:40] And that's, you know, that's sort of why it, you know, it's done so well.
[49:44] And I think the time, you know, the timing is, is right for people,
[49:50] So to fight against ultra-processed bland beige ultra-processed food, you know, for glaring out and trying to get all this weird stuff, trying something new every week that you've never, you know, a rare, strange-looking veggie that you've never seen before.
[50:07] Yeah, that's kind of the thing that made me, because I love cooking.
[50:10] And so much of what I've read in the past, I think it felt like it was going to take away something that I really enjoy in life, which is cooking, because it felt like, oh, I'm going to have to reduce and suddenly work with less ingredients to make it more healthy.
[50:22] Whereas the idea of picking something that I've never cooked with before and working out and learning how to do it felt really exciting to me and like a great challenge and way to grow in that area as well, while being healthier and good for my gut.
[50:35] Very inspiring.
[50:37] Can I ask about your thoughts on eating meat?
[50:42] I know there's like sort of conflicting thoughts from different people that I've read and watched about like whether meat is good, like the sort of the plant-based versus a diet with meat in it or like, you know, the other end, there's the paleo sort of approach.
[50:59] Do you have any sort of strong thoughts?
[51:01] I'm sure you do.
[51:02] Yeah.
[51:02] On that.
[51:03] Yeah.
[51:04] The rubbish meat, the stuff in ultra-processed foods, in the frozen pizzas and lasagnas and mints and stuff like that, and sausages and burgers, has been definitely shown to be unhealthy for us.
[51:21] So it increases heart disease risk, cancer risk.
[51:24] Yeah.
[51:26] We should be cutting that out.
[51:27] And that's probably three quarters of the meat that we eat.
[51:32] And we're much better off with plant options or, you know, and in the book does talk about the environmental impact of all these foods as well.
[51:42] So I think people have to realize now that the food choices they make are the most important things, not only for their health, but also for the planet.
[51:51] Yeah.
[51:53] We have the power to do this with our hands.
[51:55] I know there's a big debate in Australia about this and the two sides, but whether you're into mining or cars or fuel or whatever, forget that.
[52:07] Actually, if we reduced our meat and dairy...
[52:11] And, um, we'd have a massive impact on, on, on global warming.
[52:16] Um, so cheap meats, get rid of them is my view.
[52:21] Yeah.
[52:21] The question is what about high quality organic grass fed, uh, beef or lamb?
[52:29] Um,
[52:30] They're definitely bad for the planet, okay?
[52:32] They're 50 times worse than eating the same amount of protein from a soybean or a pea, 50 times.
[52:40] That's quite a big differential.
[52:42] But is it bad for your health?
[52:46] In small amounts, my view is no.
[52:49] There's no evidence that eating a small amount of meat, so once or twice a week, if it's good quality, is going to be bad for you.
[52:59] You want to make...
[53:00] Try and go for organic because less likely to have antibiotics in it, less likely to have other health, you know, growth hormones and other things in it, and may have some omega-3s, et cetera.
[53:14] The problem with meat is it takes up space on the plate.
[53:19] And if it's, you know, a big Aussie steak like I used to eat, there's no room for the veggies, you know?
[53:27] Yeah, okay.
[53:28] And so...
[53:30] Small portions, once or twice a week, as long as you've still got your focus on your 30 plants, I think is still fine.
[53:38] So that's my general view.
[53:41] If you do have meat every day, I think there's some evidence that it isn't good for you.
[53:49] How much of that is because of the lack of vegetables and how much is due to the meat itself is still unclear.
[53:55] What about these products like, you know, Beyond and there are these, you know, companies creating these plant-based meat substitute products?
[54:03] What are your thoughts on those?
[54:05] Yeah.
[54:06] Well, currently, most of the ones, these are the sort of V1 alternatives.
[54:11] They're currently ultra-processed.
[54:13] Okay.
[54:13] So a lot of things I'm criticizing them for are the same as, you know, for these meat products.
[54:23] So health-wise, they're not particularly better, although marginally better than the poor quality meats, because you don't know where they come from and what's been put into them.
[54:35] what the farmers have done with it, you know, or its origin.
[54:39] And so it might be marginally better, but you're still worried about the ultra-processing.
[54:46] They are 50 times better for the environment and the planet.
[54:49] So I think we have to wage that up.
[54:52] But I'm seeing now this next generation of alternative meats
[54:56] which are going to be healthier, healthier label, not ultra-processed, they're using microbial fermentation, so-called precision fermentation.
[55:05] I think we have to just see this as version one and the future is very much version two and try and keep an open mind on this because we definitely need better sources of protein.
[55:17] So, you know, I say to people, SWOT, you know, it's not more...
[55:25] It's better for the planet.
[55:26] It's by equal health value.
[55:29] For a rep, get used to it because this is going to be the future.
[55:33] And as the price point shifts and a fake burger will cost less than a real cheap meat burger, then I think everyone will be eating them.
[55:45] And hopefully the health of them will improve because it's not great at the moment.
[55:49] But, you know, we've done this in less than 10 years, developed a whole new food system.
[55:55] So give it time.
[55:57] I'm very conscious of your time.
[55:58] I do want to get to what you eat every single day.
[56:00] Just before I do that, I'm just really interested to know any foods out there or drinks that would surprise people that are maybe not as good for them as they have been told their entire lives.
[56:14] Any sort of things pop to mind very quickly that people are probably drinking a lot of or eating a lot of thinking that they're doing the right thing?
[56:21] Yeah, well, probably, as I was surprised, orange juice, I think, is pretty high on the list, which is basically the same as Coca-Cola for your system.
[56:35] Whoa.
[56:36] Except it has healthy labels all over it.
[56:38] And we envisage it's super healthy.
[56:42] But, you know, it's been kept in vats for two years and has taste flavor packs added to it.
[56:48] You know, it really isn't what it seems.
[56:50] And it should come with a health warning.
[56:52] These foods shouldn't be given to kids.
[56:54] So you're talking about not the freshly squeezed orange juice you're talking about.
[57:00] If you squeeze it yourself and you see the oranges in front of you and you squeeze it, it's probably healthy.
[57:08] Although drinking more than one orange...
[57:12] wouldn't be normal.
[57:13] Mm.
[57:14] Yeah.
[57:14] You'd be having, you know, and you're not, you're not getting the same as an orange.
[57:18] So it's never going to be as healthy as an orange.
[57:21] Gotcha.
[57:21] So there are various grades of this, but you know, the Tropicana type, um, orange juice that you get, um, is, is the worst ones.
[57:33] And then of course you've got, um, you know, doing it yourself, but then you are still getting a little of the sugar, not much of the fiber.
[57:42] It's not the same as eating an orange.
[57:44] And I think that's probably the number one misconception.
[57:47] I mean, a lot of breakfast, actually.
[57:49] Interestingly, children's yogurt is terrible.
[57:54] Absolutely the worst thing you can give your children.
[58:00] Most breakfast cereals, ultra-processed, and despite all the health vitamins they add back into it,
[58:07] They're terrible for you.
[58:08] Supermarket breads, even if they're dyed brown to make them look healthy, are basically sugar bombs.
[58:15] And they're not healthy.
[58:18] So that's, and the things like granolas and mueslis and things like that, most of them, 90% of them are very unhealthy.
[58:26] So I think breakfast is a pretty good place for people to start to reshape their concept of what good food is.
[58:37] I've totally changed mine from mostly orange juice.
[58:42] I look, you know, tea with low fat milk,
[58:45] Um, and, uh, you know, and sometimes a piece of toast and, uh, marmalade and the, you know, it was terrible for me, you know, really bad.
[59:00] And so I switched to having a full fat yogurt with nuts and seeds, you know, get about six or seven in there, a few berries, often frozen, perfectly good to eat frozen berries out of season.
[59:12] Um.
[59:14] And lots of black coffee, which I love.
[59:20] Just a pint of coffee.
[59:22] Yeah, and an occasional egg would be my breakfast.
[59:30] And I think that suits me because I've tested myself and I know I get sugar spikes.
[59:36] And so I'm better suited to high fat.
[59:39] diet than a high carb diet most people don't know that so i'd advise them all to experiment themselves try different breakfasts and uh not ultra processed you know try and get um versions that are healthy made of whole foods without additives and things and see how they feel see how they feel through hours later do they get those mood mood dips um
[1:00:04] Are you getting a sugar dip and a spike?
[1:00:06] People just need to pay more attention to their bodies and realize the food they put in a few hours before has a real impact on what it does later.
[1:00:14] So that's changed my preferences as well as sometimes I actually skip or delay breakfast now because…
[1:00:25] But also shown, also helpful for mood is to do time-restricted eating where you're only eating in a 10-hour window.
[1:00:31] Okay.
[1:00:32] And you have a long fast.
[1:00:34] That's the other thing to experiment with.
[1:00:36] I'm about 260 days now into a 16-hour fast and I've found it to be one of the most life-changing things from a food point of view I've ever experienced.
[1:00:46] Okay.
[1:00:47] But not everybody does, and I know some people hate it.
[1:00:52] So it's very individual, just like our microbes are individual to all of us.
[1:00:56] So some of these patterns are individual.
[1:00:58] So we must move away from this one-size-fits-all, move into a way that we are experimenting with,
[1:01:05] with our lives and our diets working out what is best for us.
[1:01:08] I think it's keeping an open mind.
[1:01:10] And that's really what the book is designed for is to give people a tool book and then say, right, okay, I know about this now.
[1:01:16] I'm going to test my own body, work out what makes me feel good.
[1:01:20] But generally,
[1:01:22] What makes you feel good energy-wise, mood-wise, is also good for your health, good for your gut microbes.
[1:01:28] Lunch and dinner before we let you go?
[1:01:30] What do you have for lunch and dinner?
[1:01:31] Sort of fingers crossed here for a wheel of bray for lunch.
[1:01:34] And then we pies for lunch.
[1:01:39] Well, it varies.
[1:01:41] I used to have a sandwich at lunch at the hospital and it was brown bread, tuna, sweet corn, terrible for me.
[1:01:50] you know, probably contribute to me gaining, you know, a kilo every year.
[1:01:55] And so, it's, if I'm busy, it would be some fruit, a handful of nuts, would be, or a salad.
[1:02:08] But, I either sort of, just have a snack, or I sit down properly, and have a salad, or a soup.
[1:02:16] And my evening meal, is mainly veggie.
[1:02:20] I have,
[1:02:20] I do have meat once or twice a month.
[1:02:23] And if I'm eating out at a restaurant, I'll fish, but I won't cook fish at home anymore.
[1:02:28] So it's trying to get my diversity of plants in there.
[1:02:33] But I try to vary it.
[1:02:34] So, you know, if you had exactly the same lunch and things, it would be a bit boring.
[1:02:37] So it's seasonal.
[1:02:39] It depends where I am.
[1:02:41] whatever, but I was looking for something new and I tried to put fermented fillets into my, into my life.
[1:02:46] So I'll add in kimchi, which is a Korean sauerkraut into lots of things.
[1:02:53] Uh, have always always had the cheese, um, sauerkraut's great as well.
[1:02:58] And I often pour kefir, uh, as a, like a salad dressing or onto the end of curries and things like that.
[1:03:04] So I've always got lots of fermented foods in my diet as well.
[1:03:08] And, uh, but you know,
[1:03:10] It's changing all the time, and I'm fermenting lots of foods at the moment, so I'm doing lots of experimental stuff.
[1:03:19] And when I'm black, I always try and pick something different on the menu, something I've never had before, which is the opposite.
[1:03:26] We used to go for our favorites, but go for something you've never heard of.
[1:03:31] Are you drinking water all day?
[1:03:33] Is that your choice of fluid?
[1:03:34] No.
[1:03:35] No, I drink... Coffee.
[1:03:39] Lots of black coffee.
[1:03:40] He's going to get through five cups a day.
[1:03:42] I've got to get to five cups of coffee.
[1:03:44] I drink kombucha, which is fermented tea.
[1:03:47] Oh.
[1:03:48] I like the odd beer.
[1:03:50] You'll be pleased to know.
[1:03:51] Also fermented.
[1:03:52] I'm trying to work out.
[1:03:53] I'm trying to get my act together to do a study to show it's healthy.
[1:04:00] Belgians claim it is good.
[1:04:02] Belgian beer is good for your gut microbiome.
[1:04:05] We know artisan cider probably is good for it.
[1:04:10] And we did a stow about red wine as well.
[1:04:13] So one glass of red wine a day is good for your gut microbes.
[1:04:17] So I'm a big advocate of that.
[1:04:20] Okay.
[1:04:20] That's great.
[1:04:21] Although my glass is slightly bigger than the official one.
[1:04:28] Wow.
[1:04:29] Tim, I feel like I've just learned a lot of stuff about food and very, very exciting.
[1:04:37] As someone who has felt the effect of eating well, especially on my mood more than anything else, a lot of that was very affirming.
[1:04:45] So thank you so much for your time, Tim.
[1:04:47] I can't wait to read the book.
[1:04:49] The book is Food for Life.
[1:04:51] It has been such a privilege to chat to you.
[1:04:53] Congratulations on all that you've done and you're putting so much great stuff out into the world.
[1:04:56] Yeah, thank you, mate.
[1:04:58] And we thank you so much for your time today.
[1:05:00] Bye, guys.
[1:05:01] Nice to chat.
[1:05:02] Thanks, Tim.
[1:05:03] Bye.
[1:05:03] Thank you very much.
[1:05:03] Bye.
[1:05:04] Thanks.
[1:05:07] The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh Van Kylenberg, Ryan Shelton and Josh Van Kylenberg.
[1:05:12] Our executive producer is Bridget North East.
[1:05:14] This episode is filmed by Andy Poole and edited by George Martin.
[1:05:17] The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
[1:05:25] The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.

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