# Dr Emily - How to Be Leaned On

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 6 Apr 2025, 1 h 22 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/tzu0om1hoqq6crg4kc67165h.mp3

Chances are, you’ve supported someone going through a tough time. And while the meaning sustains the sacrifice, today we want to support you ….. supporting them. A bit of support inception, if you will. To guide us through this incredibly complex and meaningful topic is our resident psychologist, Dr Emily Musgrove. Navigating relationships requires awareness. Showing up as a partner, friend, parent, or sibling while holding space for pain – without being overwhelmed – is a skill that takes practice. Reminding us that no one hates their struggle more than the person suffering, Dr Em delves into some practical strategies of support, such as walking the line between respect and care, as well as always understanding the difference between effort and capacity. To all of the supporters and carers listening, we see you. We love you. And we hope you felt held, too. To watch this full episode on YouTube, follow this link - https://bit.ly/3XILzEe To pre-order Dr. Em’s book Unstuck, click here - https://bit.ly/4bhmCp2 🎧 Other Imperfects episodes mentioned in this episode • Dr Emily - Resent Less, Live More - https://apple.co/4hZiVWx • Esther Perel - Let’s Be Better Lovers - https://bit.ly/42phpsh 💻Things to check out: • Carer Gateway - https://bit.ly/41UEJhA 🩷If you want A Little More Imperfects, join our Patreon to get just that - www.patreon.com/theimperfects 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - https://bit.ly/3Cx4tGP 🩷To subscribe to the Vulnerabilitea-mail weekly newsletter, join through our website - www.theimperfects.com.au The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

## Transcript

[0:01] for those of us lucky enough to be in a partnership or have a friend or whatever, it's like that anxiety is in the house and it's ours to deal with together.
[0:12] And it's almost like we can work as a team to tackle it.
[0:16] And so this challenge is how do we show up to those people to allow this pain to be here without, and this is really important, without it overwhelming either of us?
[0:27] Quick, is anyone here a doctor?
[0:29] Yes, her name is Dr Emily, and she's a psychologist.
[0:35] Please welcome to The Imperfects, our very own...
[0:38] Psychologist!
[0:42] It's fun.
[0:42] It's a fun time of the month.
[0:44] It is.
[0:44] Your favourite time, you said before, the last time.
[0:47] I have said before, my favourite time.
[0:49] And I did also say no offence to other guests because I love every guest equally.
[0:54] But in terms of, I love every episode equally, but these are my favourite.
[1:01] We do learn a lot, that's for sure.
[1:02] How are you, Em?
[1:04] I'm really good.
[1:05] Great to see you.
[1:05] Very excited to be here.
[1:06] Love that top.
[1:07] Thank you.
[1:07] I like the glasses.
[1:09] Oh, yeah, great.
[1:09] Thank you.
[1:10] Isn't that the glasses that you always wear?
[1:11] No, different glasses.
[1:12] I have too many.
[1:14] Really?
[1:14] Actually, yeah.
[1:16] Huh.
[1:16] Yeah.
[1:17] What would happen if you didn't wear them right now?
[1:20] You would be very blurry.
[1:22] Okay.
[1:22] Yeah.
[1:23] Fascinating.
[1:26] That's an expert's opinion.
[1:28] I told you.
[1:29] Yeah.
[1:29] I wish I was someone who could have multiple glasses.
[1:31] I'm not going to say I can't.
[1:33] If I rocked up in different glasses, I feel like it would, to me, I feel like it would be like I've rocked up with a different nose on.
[1:39] Everyone would be like, whoa.
[1:43] Speaking of noses, I find...
[1:46] I'm really hoping this is your topic today, Em.
[1:50] This is a weird thing to think, but I was thinking before when I was looking at you both with glasses on how good it is we have noses and ears.
[1:57] Yep.
[2:00] Yeah.
[2:01] Imagine how you'd have to attach glasses without them.
[2:03] There'd be no way.
[2:04] Yeah.
[2:05] Maybe you'd dangle them from your hair with a string.
[2:06] Like a monocle or something.
[2:07] Yeah.
[2:07] Monocle.
[2:08] Yeah.
[2:09] Might as well have to.
[2:10] Hell of a day for Josh to try mushrooms for the first time.
[2:15] See how it goes.
[2:17] Imagine that.
[2:18] Oh, good.
[2:23] Dr. M, now usually on this, when you come on, most people know that you're a resident psychologist, you're a clinical psychologist.
[2:31] You come in once a month and you bring in a clip from a previous episode.
[2:35] However, I don't think you're doing that this time, eh?
[2:37] No, no.
[2:38] And it's because it's, this is a really very broad topic and I think it kind of sits really at the heart of the work that you guys do on the podcast.
[2:46] And that's, you know, this is in the area of mental health.
[2:49] And what I wanted to explore was the, um, the experience of supporting someone with a mental health struggle and, um,
[3:00] You know, in that way, it didn't really feel to me like there was one specific episode that I wanted to kind of really highlight this because I think in a lot of ways it's present in all of them, in some capacity, whether it's that they're being supported by someone or they're supporting someone in their lives.
[3:15] And the reality is that all of us, every single one of us will be exposed to, if not experience, a mental health struggle.
[3:25] because we're all human and we all experience pain.
[3:28] I'm sure like no doubt, definitely myself and I'm sure Hugh and Josh, everyone I'm sure immediately thinks of the person at least in their life now or maybe previously that is the person they've either supported or has supported them.
[3:43] And I mean, yes, we can talk about kind of clinical diagnosis here, but I think more broadly what we're looking at here is when people are really struggling and when they're in pain and how that impacts their functioning and their life, but also how it implicitly also impacts upon your functioning
[3:58] This is, I mean, this is such an important topic.
[4:02] This was really the main, if not only, reason why I first wanted to start seeing a psychologist was to know how I could best support the people in my life who are struggling, and specifically Jam, who often struggles with anxiety and depression.
[4:29] more.
[4:29] And I also think about the amount of times after the live show we did last year, we would meet people afterwards.
[4:37] We would have a line of people to meet and so often a couple would come up to us and one person would reveal their struggles with depression or anxiety and so often the partner would say, I'd love you guys to do an episode on the person who is supporting them and what they can do and
[4:56] So I've heard it so many times and every time I say it's such a great idea.
[5:00] So I'm so happy we're doing this.
[5:02] Yeah.
[5:03] So from my point of view, it feels twofold.
[5:05] The first part is, you know, how do we as individuals show up and care for the people in our lives that are important to us that are in our struggle?
[5:14] And then also the second part, which is really important, is that how do we care for ourselves in the place of being involved as a carer?
[5:24] And what I will talk about today will have applicability to the role as a carer broadly, but it's also more nuanced when it comes to mental health or mental illness because...
[5:37] In comparison to being a carer for someone with a physical illness and or a progressive illness, what is different about caring for someone with a mental illness is that it's unpredictable and uncertain and so on.
[5:52] And we don't know the periods of time when someone will be more functional or less.
[5:58] We don't know for how long someone will be suffering.
[6:01] We also don't know when something might occur again.
[6:05] So there's something intuitively different about caring and supporting for someone with a mental illness.
[6:11] There's also within that, there's also a great variation in terms of what we're talking about.
[6:18] So...
[6:19] In this episode, I'm going to do my best to speak as generally as possible so that it's generally applicable.
[6:27] But I do want to acknowledge upfront that there are going to be, for a lot of people, some very specific and very, very hard experiences.
[6:37] And I don't want to minimise those in any way.
[6:40] And so I just want to say off to the top that there's a lot of variation in what it means to be caring for someone with a mental illness or mental health struggles.
[6:48] And I really want to pay attention to, you know, to people that, you know,
[6:52] might be caring for someone who are chronically suicidal, for example, or who have a severe psychiatric illness, who have, you know, very severe eating disorders, for example.
[7:03] So I really want to acknowledge that and also really deeply encourage the people that are in a very care heavy situation to ensure that you've also got some additional support outside of obviously this podcast as well.
[7:19] Yeah.
[7:20] Really nice.
[7:20] Yeah.
[7:21] And I guess in all of these podcasts I'm doing, I always have to speak broadly and generally, and there will always be nuance and specificity.
[7:27] And I do want to say, because this just happens to be in my mind right now, that what I will talk about is also not what I would talk about very specifically with an individual in therapy.
[7:38] So if anyone ever comes to see me, it is always specifically tailored for that individual.
[7:44] So if you hear something that I'm saying here and it's like, well, that doesn't sound like a great thing for me.
[7:50] then no, it may not be a great thing for you, but if you were in therapy, we would look at what is a great thing for you specifically.
[7:56] I just want to say that kind of off the top.
[7:59] Yeah.
[7:59] Yeah.
[7:59] So I wonder, you know, kind of maybe even starting off with, you know, your individual experiences of what, what are the challenges when it comes to maybe supporting someone that is having a really hard time, like for you as an individual, what would be the challenges?
[8:15] I would say, I mean, Penny's been on this podcast before talking about her OCD and...
[8:23] There's a few ways to answer that.
[8:25] I think the hardest thing is, because you love them so much, watching them struggle.
[8:29] Penny's OCD, it can come and go, and it's never really bad for any more than a few days, but earlier this year, it was a good couple of months where she was stuck in a thinking loop, I think is the best way of saying it.
[8:44] And it's just really hard because you love them so much, and it's so hard to watch them struggle so much.
[8:49] I'd say that's the hardest thing.
[8:52] But there are little flow-on effects from that that, I guess understanding my own ADHD, I'm like a very sensitive person.
[9:00] I think it's rejection sensitivity dysmorphia, which is like I'm basically extremely sensitive.
[9:06] And so Penny might be stuck in a thinking loop and I'll ask her a question and she will just not answer or her answer will be very short because she's trying to get out of this loop and I'll take it personally.
[9:19] And then that'll happen a few times throughout the day.
[9:22] And so we have this kind of struggle.
[9:27] That's one of the big struggles I think we do have.
[9:31] But just to stick to it, I could do a whole podcast on this answer, but I'm just going to say the hardest thing is watching them struggle and not really being able to do much to help.
[9:41] Feeling really helpless.
[9:42] Yeah.
[9:42] And also worrying.
[9:48] what it means long term and how long is this going to be bad for and what does it mean for us and our life.
[9:55] And you can't help but flash forward and think, is this going to be, I mean, in 10 years or in 20 years, or is this just the worst it's going to be?
[10:03] And especially with Penny, she works, she puts in so much work to get on top of it.
[10:08] Like she's going above and beyond to try to manage her OCD.
[10:12] Yeah.
[10:13] So you also feel every time she says, I'm seeing Andrew, my psychologist, it's like a huge amount of pride that she's working so hard.
[10:20] But all those things, yeah, it's complicated.
[10:23] It is.
[10:23] It's really complex.
[10:26] And it's incredibly painful to witness the pain of someone you love.
[10:30] And it's hard.
[10:31] And to feel really helpless about that.
[10:35] Yeah, I think the thing that I always struggle to know what to do is like knowing what, I guess I know what the role is that I should play because it's like I know and I've been told this by experts and psychologists and is that it's important for me when I'm talking about jam specifically here
[11:00] It's important that I don't become Jam's carer, you know, or she doesn't look to me as her carer.
[11:06] Like I'm her equal, I'm her partner, you know, and that's what I want.
[11:11] But then when, if Jam is really, really anxious about something and she's really in the depths and really struggling, it's really hard to...
[11:25] to resist like telling her what I think she should do to get out of it.
[11:32] Because it's like, I'm so convinced that it's like, I'm pretty sure I know what you need to do right now and it will help you.
[11:39] You just did what I know.
[11:40] Yeah.
[11:41] Yeah, yeah.
[11:43] But I know I shouldn't, even I still do it, I do it because it's sometimes it feels like, you know, an emergency.
[11:50] And because sometimes it works.
[11:52] Yeah.
[11:56] maybe I have got the ability to be able to soothe or calm or level her emotions.
[12:03] I don't know what the right term terminology is, but I'm pretty sure the best thing for me to do in those situations just is to be there for her and just be a, like a loving partner who is in it with her.
[12:15] And she can rely on me to be there for her and be a nonjudgmental person supporting her.
[12:22] But,
[12:23] So when it's really bad, I just think like, that's not enough.
[12:26] Hmm.
[12:27] Yeah.
[12:30] And that's incredibly natural, I think, and very understandable.
[12:34] That's what you want to do.
[12:35] It's also a bit strange because Jam edits these episodes.
[12:41] I feel like I'm talking about images in the room, which would be fine.
[12:46] But yeah.
[12:46] I think one of the things that sits with me about that is this really, this very deep acknowledgement that no one hates their struggle more than they do.
[12:59] And I think that's always a really useful place to start is that no one hates their depression more than the person who is depressed.
[13:08] No one wants to fix their depression more than the person who is depressed.
[13:12] And so I think we really almost like start, there's a starting point there.
[13:15] It often pops into my mind with Penny when, you know, we've been here for 10 years now and if ever I feel feelings are creeping in of like, this is quite frustrating.
[13:25] that we can't do whatever because of this, or it's hard for her to be present right now, and very quick rushes to my mind that this is whatever I'm feeling, this has been a thousand times worse for Penny since forever.
[13:37] So yeah, I agree.
[13:37] Yeah.
[13:38] And that, of course, if they could be better, they would be better.
[13:42] Um, and that's kind of a bit of a given in there.
[13:44] Um, but yeah, it's a really tricky role to play to sit back.
[13:50] and allow the space for them to be in it.
[13:53] Because, of course, in the same way that we as individuals work really hard to avoid and escape our pain, we also want to do the same thing because it's painful for us too.
[14:04] Like, it's painful for me to witness this, so I want to get rid of it for you also.
[14:08] I should probably add, I've never once felt like Penny's carer.
[14:10] Like I've never once, you know, like I'm caring for her.
[14:14] She's been through some very tough times and I'm definitely there with her for it, but she's had this her entire life and worked so hard to manage it herself.
[14:22] I've never felt like I'm caring for her.
[14:25] I think...
[14:26] Sorry.
[14:27] I care for her deeply, but I've never felt like I am her carer.
[14:30] Yeah, yes.
[14:32] And I think like the image that comes to my mind with this is that...
[14:37] almost as though she or an individual has been walking a pathway and now we're walking it together.
[14:47] So I'm walking side by side with you rather than like miles ahead of you, like telling you how to get there, dragging you there.
[14:55] So this is like we're walking here together with this and I need you just as much as you need me.
[15:03] I think that that is really significant in here is that,
[15:05] even when it feels like you're doing a lot of caring, um,
[15:10] You need them as much.
[15:12] Yeah.
[15:13] And so like this is coming back to some really very, probably very basic kind of listening and active listening skills.
[15:20] And I know that this is something that you've all spoken about so eloquently many, many times before.
[15:25] But, you know, it's just, I guess, a bit of a refresher around how we talk to someone.
[15:31] You know, obviously we want to look at these kind of micro skills here of open-ended questions for us, Dan.
[15:35] Okay.
[15:36] So how are you feeling?
[15:37] Yeah.
[15:38] Tell me more.
[15:40] I'm curious about.
[15:42] I noticed this.
[15:44] How is this showing up for you?
[15:46] So the open-ended questions are a really, really helpful way to start and also to bring in, again, this kind of tone of curiosity.
[15:54] You know, I just noticed that, you know, you haven't been getting out of bed lately or I've noticed that you're having a difficult time getting to work.
[16:02] I just want to check in.
[16:04] Like what's that like for you?
[16:06] And I think for me, the part with that that I struggle to do is put those questions in words that don't feel like I'm Dr. M-ing her, you know, if you know what I mean?
[16:21] Yeah.
[16:22] Like words that, like sentences that sound organic to something that I would say, so it feels genuine.
[16:28] Yeah.
[16:28] And I think that's a really good point.
[16:29] So even off the top of your head, what would feel genuine?
[16:33] That would be like curiously driven.
[16:37] Um, sounds like everything's pretty fucked at the moment.
[16:43] No, not that.
[16:45] Yeah, I mean, I honestly can't think of it.
[16:47] I guess it's so situation specific.
[16:50] But the other thing that I get worried about is like if, for example, um...
[16:58] you know, she doesn't, you know, she doesn't want to get up because, you know, she's like, I just don't want to face the world.
[17:06] I'm not up for it.
[17:08] For me to say it looks like you don't want to get up today, she'd be like, yeah, no fucking shit.
[17:15] Yeah.
[17:18] She wouldn't say that, but that would be the tone.
[17:20] It would be like, yeah, obviously.
[17:22] Like that's, you know that.
[17:23] Why are you telling me what I already know?
[17:25] You know?
[17:26] And I don't mean to criticise, but I don't know how to do it in a way which feels non-patronising or something.
[17:33] Yes, and authentic too and sincere.
[17:35] Yeah.
[17:36] I think like even it can just be a start of reflecting.
[17:39] Like it looks like you're having a really hard time.
[17:42] Would you say that now?
[17:46] No, I wouldn't say that.
[17:50] And maybe because it's relatively regular, I...
[17:58] I think to point out the thing that we both know is a regular struggle might feel weird.
[18:06] Yeah, I think that's a really good point and I think it highlights too like the nuance and the difference here too.
[18:12] Yes, true.
[18:13] And also the chronicity of something too.
[18:15] That's true and I probably shouldn't be picking up on things like that because, yeah, you're right, it's such a you're talking generally and I'm picking up on specific.
[18:21] But no, that is a really important point and I think, you know,
[18:25] So thinking about your own unique individual situations, it might be that there are times when it's like open-ended questions are going to be really paramount, particularly if it's something that's unusual.
[18:34] Like if this is really unusual for your friend or your partner to be doing this, like let's bring in a curiosity.
[18:40] If it's something that we know is chronic and episodic, then it might be like we actually change the tact and it can be something like tell me out of 10 your capacity today.
[18:52] Mm.
[18:52] Yeah.
[18:52] More, more.
[18:54] Yeah.
[18:54] So it's like we get a temperature gauge of where you're at.
[18:57] Yeah.
[18:57] Yeah.
[18:58] Yeah.
[18:58] And that might be like, that's, that's often easier to answer for someone that's struggling.
[19:04] It's like, I'm at a three and then, you know, like you're given the information.
[19:07] It's okay.
[19:08] So today's a three.
[19:10] Then you have a sense of what you might have to step up with.
[19:14] But we also then might be out to ask, okay, so at a three, what do you need?
[19:18] So what do you need?
[19:19] What would be helpful to you right now?
[19:21] Mm.
[19:22] Now, it's tricky because the question of what you need, this is really relevant in schema therapy, but it's a question that is used across, you know, really probably all theoretical therapeutic orientations.
[19:35] The question of need is really tricky because often we don't know.
[19:38] Mm.
[19:40] And for someone in particular who has had a history of, for example, emotional deprivation, their needs being chronically unmet, it's very hard to kind of be able to step in with a real felt sense of what I might need in this moment.
[19:57] Now, as a partner or as a friend, it might be that, you know, what do you need?
[20:02] Yes, maybe some people can answer that.
[20:05] And also you might get an answer like, I want you to go away.
[20:08] Hmm.
[20:09] And that might be this kind of tendency, particularly in the place of depression, that there's a very, very strong urge to withdraw and to avoid and to shut down and to numb and to immobilise.
[20:23] And so the urge then is I want to shut you out.
[20:27] Now we know, like everybody knows that, um, that only tends to further perpetuate a depressive episode, for example.
[20:35] Um, but how do you walk the line of caring and also respecting someone's wishes?
[20:44] Does anyone have a sense of what, you know, how you might navigate that kind of put like the push away that often happens?
[20:50] Yeah.
[20:50] I mean, this is my fault, but often my inquiries into Penny's, how she's going, like I should be asking out of 10 how her capacity is much better, but I'll say, particularly when it's bad over summer for a couple of months, I'll say, how's your OCD today?
[21:08] And it would be the quickest answer ever.
[21:11] Just go, yes, not great.
[21:12] And then that'd be it.
[21:15] And I'd kind of,
[21:17] in a way kind of got what I was looking for as in like, how, how are you today?
[21:21] But then there was a dead end that there's nothing I could do.
[21:25] There's not much I really can do with OCD, but it kind of shut the conversation down and it was my line of questioning that did that.
[21:34] It wasn't, I don't know what she's meant to say.
[21:36] She's not in the mood to elaborate the ins and outs of it.
[21:40] But yeah, I, my question led us to a dead end.
[21:44] I mean, I think it's a very understandable question.
[21:46] Um, and I think intuitively it, you know, it's coming from a place of care of wanting to know, like how, how are you today?
[21:52] Um, but it's also tricky.
[21:54] I, you know, I hear what you're saying there.
[21:55] It's, it's a tricky, um.
[22:00] It's a hard way to open up a meaningful conversation.
[22:03] But also on the flip side, in the day-to-day of life, you know, we're not – it takes a lot of intention, I think, to be able to find the space to really be able to truly check in.
[22:15] We're so busy with our lives rushing around and helping other people and doing our jobs and going to work.
[22:21] that, you know, I think it's very natural that that kind of question is going to show up.
[22:25] And so we also have to be kind and compassionate to ourselves when we feel like we haven't done the best job.
[22:31] Is there another way that comes to mind that you could, like, ask that question?
[22:37] Yeah.
[22:46] It's also, OCD is a tough one because like Penny talked about it being a stigma on top of a stigma because she's often not comfortable sharing the thoughts she's having, which I totally understand as with anyone with OCD because it is so hard to explain.
[23:01] So I actually don't really know.
[23:04] Mm.
[23:05] And this has been my, you know, mental health's been my work for 15, 20 years.
[23:10] So, and I struggle with this part of it.
[23:14] Yeah.
[23:15] Because I can sense that Penny doesn't really want to talk about it.
[23:19] Yeah.
[23:19] And that leaves you feeling pretty helpless.
[23:22] Yeah.
[23:22] Well, inadequate and yeah, yes, helpless.
[23:25] Yeah.
[23:26] Yeah.
[23:26] I mean, adequate is also probably a very common experience too.
[23:30] Yeah.
[23:30] Yeah.
[23:31] I imagine that that question could be quite tricky for the person with whatever it is to answer, especially if you layer on what you were saying about before, that no one wants to be free of their anxiety or depression or whatever, or ICD or whatever it is more than that person.
[23:47] So I imagine that there would be this like,
[23:54] weight of like, oh, I don't want to disappoint them again.
[23:56] Like I don't want to tell them again it's a two or a three.
[24:00] Like I just don't want to answer that question because I'm sick of letting you down.
[24:05] I think that's really spot on.
[24:07] And it also, you know, in addition to that, whether it's I don't want to let you down or it's also such a dislike of where I'm at, it might be that you feel defensive.
[24:16] Yeah.
[24:17] So like, you know, the question how are you today?
[24:20] I'm like...
[24:21] Like, it's almost like piss off, you know, like, of course I'm shit.
[24:27] Yeah.
[24:27] And I think that that can really activate, because we're in so much pain, it can really activate a defensiveness that, like, this question is meaningless to me.
[24:36] Why are you bothering to ask?
[24:38] But from the person that's loving this person, like it's coming from a place of, like,
[24:43] I also don't know.
[24:43] I don't know what I'm doing.
[24:45] Like I don't.
[24:46] We're all trying to figure this out all in the same kind of house almost.
[24:50] Does that make sense?
[24:52] Yeah.
[24:54] It's really tricky.
[24:55] So if someone does say go away and leave me alone, how do you respond to that?
[25:02] What comes to mind, this is probably more personal, what comes to mind is like almost as a recognition, like actually I'm not going away.
[25:13] I'm going to be here.
[25:15] That may or might not be helpful.
[25:18] But there is this deep acknowledgement in here that we are in here together with this.
[25:23] And I know you don't want to be around me right now, but I am here and I will be here.
[25:28] So that's one.
[25:29] That sounds really cool.
[25:33] The other thing is that you can, you know, I can hear you.
[25:36] Like I hear you don't want me to be here.
[25:38] So we're using this kind of reflective paraphrasing here.
[25:40] I really hear you don't want me to be here right now.
[25:43] And that's really hard.
[25:45] So it's just reflective paraphrasing what you've heard back to them again.
[25:51] And, you know, we can also ask in that moment maybe what you need.
[25:54] Would you need me to give you some space?
[25:56] Yeah.
[25:56] And that's, again, like a tricky thing to answer.
[25:58] Sometimes people say, yeah, that would be helpful.
[26:00] And you might go, okay, so I'm just going to go and take a walk and I'm going to come back and maybe we'll be able to have a chat then.
[26:09] That's nice.
[26:10] So it's like kind of this boundary between not withdrawing and...
[26:17] reacting to their defensiveness, but also being respectful of, you know, when there's a readiness or not.
[26:23] But I think this kind of key message in there is that, and it's the same too with parenting.
[26:28] Like when you've got a little kid, it's kind of the same, like a little kid that's like pushing you away and telling you to go away.
[26:33] Yeah.
[26:34] if we're not tuned in we can go fine see you later yeah yeah yeah and we can walk away it's deeply wounding for a child to hear that even though they're telling you to go away it's the same thing for a partner we actually don't want our partners to go away
[26:48] With like kids, you know, when kids like say those horrible things to their parents, if my kid said, I hate you, I don't know how I'd deal with that.
[27:01] I'd be like, well, because I know you don't, but how could you say that to me?
[27:06] Yeah, I think that most parents will hear that.
[27:09] Shocking.
[27:10] You just get used to it.
[27:11] Oh, my God.
[27:11] It's totally used to it.
[27:12] Yeah.
[27:12] Wow.
[27:12] Yeah.
[27:13] Yeah.
[27:14] Like my daughter often says stuff like that to me and also she does not want me to comfort her when she's upset.
[27:23] She does not want it at all.
[27:24] And so I will often do things like whether she can hear it or not, I don't know.
[27:28] I'm just going to be outside the door.
[27:31] I'm not leaving.
[27:32] I'm just here whenever you're ready.
[27:35] And again, she's probably not having the capacity to hear me right now, but she knows I haven't left.
[27:40] And that's the same thing that we're talking about here with our partners.
[27:42] How old is she now?
[27:43] She's four.
[27:44] Four.
[27:44] Oh, she's five next week.
[27:47] Oh.
[27:47] Yeah.
[27:47] Mermaid party coming right up.
[27:48] Oh.
[27:50] We have a five-year-old mermaid party on Sunday.
[27:53] Really?
[27:53] There you go.
[27:55] Yeah, mermaids are lovely.
[27:57] Yep.
[27:58] I love them.
[28:00] And mermaids.
[28:02] Yes, correct.
[28:03] So we have the option of mermaid or pirate.
[28:05] Also do we, yeah.
[28:07] Really?
[28:08] Must be the thing.
[28:08] Options are essential.
[28:09] I guess they are the same world, aren't they?
[28:11] Pirates and mermaids.
[28:12] But they're kind of enemies?
[28:14] No, not enemies.
[28:16] Actually, let's not go into the relationship between pirates and mermaids.
[28:18] I think it's complicated.
[28:19] It would get really complicated if like, you know, like one of the mermaids had like an eye injury and had to wear an eye patch.
[28:25] Yeah.
[28:25] Well, I shouldn't laugh at this.
[28:28] My daughter has a lazy eye and to do that, I really shouldn't be laughing at this.
[28:32] This is very serious.
[28:33] She has a lazy eye and she has to wear glasses that has a patch on one eye.
[28:38] So every morning for two hours a day, she has glasses with an eye patch on.
[28:41] Oh, right.
[28:42] And she has to alternate every second day to correct her vision.
[28:45] And so she's often pirate mermaid in just her daily life.
[28:49] Retract my eye patch jokes.
[28:52] Pirate mermaid's pretty cool.
[28:54] Yeah.
[28:55] Yes.
[28:55] I guess like my main point in there is if I come back.
[28:59] I think I'm coming over.
[28:59] Yeah, I think we got it.
[29:01] Yeah, is the message that I'm not leaving.
[29:06] Yeah, unless you're going to be violent and unless you're going to be treating me really poorly, of course.
[29:12] Safety is key.
[29:13] Safety is important.
[29:14] But because I love you, this feels hard, I'm going to give you some space, but when you're ready, I'm here.
[29:19] Yeah.
[29:21] Is it, I don't know where I heard this recently, but I'm having like a memory of hearing or reading something about whatever is happening to Jam or whatever is happening to me is actually happening to us.
[29:36] whether it's like something that Jam is anxious about or something that I'm anxious about is not something that either one of us have to or should be expected to tackle on our own.
[29:45] It's like for those of us, you know, lucky enough to be in like a partnership or have a friend or whatever, it's like that anxiety is in the house and it's ours to deal with together.
[29:58] And it's almost like we can work as a team to tackle it.
[30:02] And when I was told that...
[30:05] I remember thinking, oh, that makes much more sense because that is what it is often in my experience.
[30:12] It's really beautiful.
[30:14] It's also really hard.
[30:16] It's really hard to do.
[30:19] Yeah, I guess in my specific situation, it is hard sometimes, but I actually kind of prefer thinking about it that way because it is so hard to feel helpless.
[30:33] And if I think of it more in terms of like, oh, this is mine to, we've got to work this out together, to me, I feel like I'm more useful in that way, in that situation.
[30:45] I think that's great.
[30:46] You know, we can apply also to, it doesn't have to be to your romantic partner, it can be also to siblings or, you know, even to parents and also particularly to friends.
[30:56] You know, when you witness a friend that's really struggling, gosh, it would feel really cold to not be in it with them in some ways.
[31:07] Yeah.
[31:08] So, yeah, it is...
[31:10] I mean, we know without a shadow of a doubt that we always do better in company with other people.
[31:14] Like I've spoken about that every episode.
[31:17] And so this challenge is how do we show up to those people to allow this pain to be here without, and this is really important, without it overwhelming either of us?
[31:27] And this is, I think, one of the greatest challenges that we all face is like, how can we be present to the pain without it drowning us?
[31:36] Now, like if we look at the research around what's called emotional contagion, I think it feels really important to mention because emotional contagion.
[31:47] So often we would obviously say that things like mental illness is not contagious.
[31:51] Right.
[31:51] Very, very, very clear.
[31:52] It's not an infectious disease.
[31:55] However, and this is a tricky path to tread, I'm very aware of how this could sound and I want to be really careful and sensitive to this, but what the research also shows is that we are implicitly impacted by the emotions of other people.
[32:11] So this is a bit of a no-brainer in some ways.
[32:14] When you're around someone who is laughing, when you're around someone who's really happy, what do you notice happens to you?
[32:21] You get lifted.
[32:23] Yeah, yeah.
[32:25] And it's a function of mirror neurons and what's called emotional mimicry.
[32:30] And so we have these special brain cells that are basically acting like mirrors for what we see and experience in front of us.
[32:38] So it's present from birth, right?
[32:41] So you, when your baby starts to come alive, for example, you can see that it will mimic your smile.
[32:49] It will mimic your facial expressions.
[32:51] This is called emotional mimicry.
[32:53] We are mimicking and imitating what we see and what we hear.
[32:57] A very, very easy example.
[32:59] If I witness one of you yawn, even if I say it right now, an urge to yawn arrives.
[33:05] This is mirror neurons right at work.
[33:08] Being at a festival, like a music concert, involved with all this joyous activity, we feel joy too.
[33:16] It's an inbuilt part of our human body and our human brain.
[33:21] It's almost like contagious, like instantly contagious.
[33:24] Yes.
[33:24] And it also works the other way.
[33:27] So when you think about, you know, what is it like to be around someone who is feeling very anxious?
[33:34] Equally, what is it like to be in the presence of someone who's feeling very, very low?
[33:38] Now, if we're really in tune with our internal state, for most of us, we will notice that our nervous system is changing in accordance with the presence of that other person.
[33:51] Does that make sense?
[33:52] Yeah.
[33:52] Yeah.
[33:53] Yeah, it does.
[33:54] And I think, and I'm not just talking about with Jam here, but anyone, if I'm around someone who is clearly going through it, like if one of the team came in and they were like in a really, really bad place, I'm,
[34:09] I think the mimicry, it almost feels like it's out of respect.
[34:15] Like I don't want to be up if you're down.
[34:18] Yeah.
[34:19] To continue to be up in the presence of the down is like feels inappropriate.
[34:27] You're right.
[34:27] And because it's not adaptive, right?
[34:30] And I mean, you think about it, like if someone is like laughing in the face of your trauma of like...
[34:37] that's diabolical, right?
[34:39] And so the mimicry is also opening us up to empathy and opening up to us feeling the emotions.
[34:46] It's the same way that we will cry watching a sad movie or we will cry with like a joyfulness at a wedding, for example, is that these experiences, we're basically always in contact with other people's emotions.
[35:02] And so that has also a great bearing then on...
[35:07] our vulnerability to experiencing our own mental health struggles when we're caring for someone who is also struggling.
[35:18] The research is pretty clear on this, that there is certainly an increased vulnerability towards experiencing depression when you're caring for someone who has depression, for example.
[35:28] And it makes sense from a number of different points of view.
[35:33] Yeah, and I know you said before that you were conscious of being really sensitive around this and I just want to, now that you're talking about it right now, I would just hate anyone who's depressed to feel like it's their fault that they're making their partner or parents or child depressed because they're depressed.
[35:57] Yeah.
[35:59] Yeah, that would be a horrible thing to think or feel.
[36:03] Yes, and that's exactly, I guess, was my hesitation and my caution in talking about this because there is certainly, I don't want there to be an attribution of blame at all.
[36:13] So, yeah, this is a really fine line to walk because I don't want it to feel as though it's my fault that my partner is now struggling.
[36:23] It's more like let's raise attention to this as a possibility and a vulnerability.
[36:28] And that there are active things that we need to do to take good care of ourselves in that space so that we can also then show up to support our partners even more.
[36:38] So that's like that's really fundamental in there.
[36:41] And, you know, I have to say that like I in my practice, I see both sides.
[36:46] You know, obviously I have the vast majority of my clients are coming because they themselves are struggling.
[36:53] But I also have clients that are coming because their partners are struggling.
[36:56] And they're wanting to ensure that they're getting their own support in order to keep supporting them.
[37:01] So, you know, I can see like many sides of this experience.
[37:07] And I think the thing is that depression never is just affecting one person, for example, or anxiety is never affecting one person because we live in a collective community.
[37:17] We're in combination.
[37:18] Our nervous systems are co-regulating and dysregulating all the time.
[37:23] So it's a tricky thing to navigate.
[37:26] You know, I think that my main point in there that I really want to emphasize is that this is not about anyone being at fault, but about how we really kind of bring awareness to the vulnerability there that can happen.
[37:39] When we had Esther Perel on, she mentioned a phrase that's always stuck with me about power in this situation where she said, which we'll link to, but that people who are suffering from depression or anxiety or any range of mental ill health can often feel very powerless.
[38:00] But they actually have a lot more power than they realise in the room or in the dynamic or in that family.
[38:06] Yes.
[38:07] Um, and it was something I hadn't realized in my life until she mentioned it really that when I've been in a not so great place, I feel very isolated, but I was unaware of the effect I was having on other people as well.
[38:19] Yeah.
[38:20] Yeah.
[38:20] And what, what has that recognition done?
[38:23] Do you think?
[38:24] It just brings an awareness to me, especially now as a dad, that my mood has...
[38:32] It's not just me in this.
[38:34] And so recently I haven't been feeling great at the start of this year.
[38:37] So I sort of proactively, earlier than I think I would have normally, have seeked help because the stakes just feel a bit higher now and I'm aware that it's not just me.
[38:49] Yeah.
[38:50] And I'm going to have an impact on other people.
[38:51] So I've got to get onto this before it gets worse.
[38:54] So which is easier for me because I was able to get access to help and it's very hard for people and that I could afford to get help.
[39:05] So I'm aware that I'm very lucky.
[39:08] Yeah.
[39:09] But it's and that I'm really lucky that I don't have a sort of I don't know if chronic mental health issues is the right term.
[39:18] But that for me, it's a it's a fluctuating thing.
[39:22] So I'm able to kind of get ahead of it, so to speak, which I know is not an option for a lot of people.
[39:27] But it has allowed me to think, OK, it's not just me.
[39:31] I think there's so many important things in what you've just said then.
[39:34] Um, and like to start with, you're able to get ahead of it by noticing it.
[39:40] Yes.
[39:41] Like, I want to be really clear about that is like you've caught it and the next step then, um, there are a number of avenues.
[39:49] So yes, like for you, it might be accessing therapy.
[39:52] Um, but I think what is the more powerful piece in there is that you noticed it.
[39:57] And to be honest, I, yes, and to be honest, I have felt the steps that have gone into seeking therapy and some of the other things I've put in place, like having honest conversations with people here at work, with Soph, my wife at home, and changing a couple of things in my day.
[40:20] Mm-hmm.
[40:22] By the time I actually got to the therapist, I was like 80% better than what I was.
[40:26] Yeah.
[40:27] That's not uncommon.
[40:28] Yeah.
[40:29] Which is, I think, proof that, yes, I do need to do some work and there's some things I need to work through.
[40:35] But there were lots of steps before getting into a therapist that helped.
[40:38] Yeah.
[40:38] Yeah.
[40:39] The other part in there that you mentioned, Josh, is also that there's a deep understanding and awareness that I matter to other people.
[40:48] Yeah, you're right.
[40:49] And also that if I want to show up to the kind of person I want to be, then that's going to move me in the direction of seeking help.
[40:59] Yeah.
[40:59] Yeah.
[41:00] So there's a recognition in here that me, when I'm suffering, it is not just me that's suffering.
[41:07] It's not me in my silo over here.
[41:10] It has an implicit impact on other people.
[41:11] And because I care and love them, I'm showing up with a willingness to put an effort in to change it.
[41:19] It's actually an interesting way of also reframing the idea because I know there's obviously, as you've said very well, that we don't want to be attributing blame.
[41:28] But reframing that into your mood will affect other people because you matter to them.
[41:34] Yes, that's, this is like the core of this is that, you know, like for example, it would be different if you're a paid carer.
[41:42] I mean, and yes, we can go like there is burnout issues there too, but this is not a paid position, right?
[41:49] I'm caring for you because you matter to me and because I care for you.
[41:53] Yeah.
[41:54] And so when I see someone that is really struggling,
[41:56] and I care about them, then yes, that has an impact on me.
[42:00] Yeah.
[42:00] Yeah.
[42:01] And I think this also kind of brings to question when, you know, when we are caring for other people, um, a number of things like one of them is identity.
[42:11] And I'll talk about that in a minute.
[42:13] But the second one is differentiating between effort and capacity.
[42:19] So if we have someone that is struggling
[42:26] and they're not putting in any effort, even if they have very limited capacity, but if they're not putting in any effort, then we have a real problem.
[42:37] Because it can feel for someone who is caring for them deeply disrespectful.
[42:45] This is like at one end of the spectrum.
[42:46] It can feel deeply disrespectful.
[42:48] It can feel like you don't care about you and you therefore don't care about me.
[42:54] Now, I need you to care for me and I need you to care for me by caring for you because I love you and I want us to be in this life together, for example.
[43:03] So it's how do we differentiate?
[43:05] Like if I can see that you're making an effort like that to me is this willingness to care for each other.
[43:11] The effort is the example of care.
[43:15] That effort may be really small, like may look really small, capacity, I should say, it looks really small.
[43:20] So the effort might be today I went into work for half an hour.
[43:27] That's all the capacity I had, but the effort was really key in there.
[43:32] And I therefore can see that, that there is, there is a movement towards caring for us, like as a family, almost.
[43:40] Does that make sense?
[43:41] Yeah, well, it kind of, like what I was talking about before, that what I was told about it's, you know, you're in it together.
[43:51] I guess you kind of compare it to a workplace.
[43:53] This is very different.
[43:54] But if like a crisis hit a company and someone wasn't pulling their weight to help the company work,
[44:03] get out of the hole, then the rest of the time will be like, hey, we're all trying really hard here to save the company and you're not pulling your weight, you might feel a bit resentful or disappointed or pissed off with that person.
[44:17] Yes, and this is what happens and that is that in the absence of effort, and again I want to say that effort doesn't have to look like maximum capacity, effort can look like 2% capacity.
[44:26] Yeah.
[44:28] But in the absence of a vision of effort, in an absence of me seeing you,
[44:33] trying, I will then start to feel resentful.
[44:37] I will then start to feel angry and annoyed.
[44:41] And then what happens, this is really common, is then when you as a supporter starts to feel resentful and irritated and angry...
[44:51] then it's not uncommon to then start to feel guilty about the fact that you had these resentful feelings for someone that is clearly suffering.
[45:00] And it's a real bind for someone that's in that place.
[45:05] And one of the biggest, probably important parts in this is that we need to be able to communicate this dilemma and this problem with our partner or our friend.
[45:18] And saying I'm feeling a bit of resentment or saying that I feel guilty about the resentment.
[45:23] Possibly both.
[45:24] But even one step before that might be I'm noticing that we talked about you going to see a therapist and you haven't seen one.
[45:36] And for me, when I notice that that hasn't happened, I feel really let down.
[45:43] And these are really hard conversations to be having.
[45:46] We can then go down the pathway of reflecting back to them how hard this is for me because I care for you so deeply.
[45:53] I think that's the crucial point, isn't it?
[45:57] It is.
[45:58] Yeah.
[45:58] Yeah.
[45:58] Because otherwise it could come across like if the person who's really, really struggling and they might feel like, yeah, I haven't organised therapy, but I am just trying to survive.
[46:10] Mm-hmm.
[46:10] Yeah, that's a tough conversation.
[46:12] It is.
[46:13] And it also does open the door to like to me now as a carer, understanding that, okay, that was too big of an ask.
[46:19] And so now I can bring in some compassion.
[46:21] I was like, gosh, I didn't know that.
[46:22] Yeah, great.
[46:24] And so then we move into problem solving.
[46:26] Okay, what would we need to do to get you there?
[46:28] But if we hold all of this in, I mean, I have spoken about resentment, obviously, it is so corrosive.
[46:35] And what it does more than anything is create separation and distance between me and the person that I actually love.
[46:42] It is really corrosive.
[46:46] And the antidote to that, as hard as this is, like as painful as this is, is to be able to communicate
[46:52] what's going on and to bring a curiosity.
[46:55] Like, you know, we can say it in other ways, obviously, like I'm just really curious.
[46:58] You know, last week we spoke about, you know, the possibility of you coming to a therapy session with me.
[47:06] How, where are we with that?
[47:07] How are we tracking with that?
[47:08] So we can bring curiosity there.
[47:11] And that is a point that I will also make.
[47:12] And that is that it is very, certainly for me, it's very common that I will have a partner come in.
[47:19] to be with their partner in my session.
[47:23] And it's not couples therapy.
[47:25] My client will invite their partner to come in with the purpose of this session being about understanding the client's experience and understanding what the partner can be doing, how the partner can be helping, and also for the client, and this can be very powerful, for the client to hear what it's like for the carer.
[47:46] And most often it's extremely, it can be extremely painful, but also very moving session because the reason that that person is there is because they love the other person.
[47:58] And that, you know, by me showing up to a session is like a willingness and an effort for us to stay together on the same page.
[48:06] which, again, this is different from couples therapy.
[48:09] But, you know, if you have someone in your life that, like it could be you that's going as the client, but you are the carer, you can also invite the person that you're caring for to come into your session.
[48:21] Like I think that that can equally be just as helpful.
[48:25] I think it's a very good option when particularly, this is really particularly the case,
[48:31] If the person that you're caring for, that you love, is not acknowledging or denying that there is a problem, I think that that is the cause of a lot of relationship dysfunction, is when the partner is refusing to acknowledge that there is a problem and refusing to get help or to do anything differently.
[48:50] That's a major stuck point.
[48:53] So sometimes it can be that I will tell the client to ask their partner to come in to support the partner rather than to move down a diagnosis or treatment of the person that we're talking about.
[49:04] Am I making sense there?
[49:05] Yeah.
[49:06] Yeah.
[49:06] Penny and I did that with the OCD so that Andrew could really explain to me because Penny found it hard to explain.
[49:12] Yeah.
[49:12] And it was an unbelievable thing to do.
[49:14] Yeah.
[49:15] It was so good to sit there and listen to.
[49:18] Penny try and talk through the different stages of her OCD with the support of a professional was really good.
[49:24] Yeah, I think it's an immensely helpful thing at both ends of the spectrum.
[49:31] I just was one part of it, which I wonder if it's worth mentioning, which could be a lot of people's experience in the situation you were talking about before where the person person who's struggling has not booked the appointment or hasn't, you know, quote unquote, like done their bit.
[49:53] And the the supporting person feels like disappointed.
[50:01] a lot of situations where that supporting person then kind of like goes, well, I tried and you're on your own now.
[50:08] Takes it personally and like steps back and almost punishes the person for not accepting their help.
[50:14] I think that's very common.
[50:17] And I also think that one of the, again, the biggest factors in there is communication.
[50:22] And so often, like if we've experienced like this, almost what I would say is like a carer burnout and compassion fatigue or, you know, feeling very overwhelmed by the other person's struggle, but that that is done in silence, then like that is a road and a pathway to making big decisions like leaving.
[50:44] There's so much unsaid there that and the unsaid and the unspoken is actually what causes the breakup, for example.
[50:51] I can no longer tolerate this kind of feeling of discomfort and what might feel like disrespect.
[50:58] So we go, we leave.
[51:00] It's yeah, and it's not uncommon.
[51:02] And I think that this is also where stepping into being able to own your own mental health and being responsible for taking good care of yourself becomes so paramount.
[51:14] And it's tricky because if your if your partner or your friend or your sibling
[51:21] is having a really hard time.
[51:23] It may feel like I can't go off and do the thing that I love, that I will feel too guilty for leaving them or that I won't want to show them that I had a good time.
[51:32] This is really common.
[51:35] It's like I shouldn't have this because you're suffering.
[51:39] But what I want to emphasise is that if we don't hold and maintain our own sense of self and identity that is separate from caring,
[51:49] then we will move down.
[51:51] We will absolutely move down into a place of low mood.
[51:56] It's a very common trajectory.
[52:00] Yeah.
[52:01] a big mistake that I made when Jam and I first started, or we'd been dating for a few years and I was starting to sort of recognize the sort of pattern of anxiety and it was more and more present.
[52:16] And in trying to help and not having an understanding of mental illness at all, I think I said something along the lines of, well, let's see if you can get better by the end of the year.
[52:32] Like in a way of going, in a way of thinking, like my belief was this is like a broken leg.
[52:41] A rehab.
[52:42] A rehab.
[52:43] Like what do we need to do and let's have a goal of, you know, being like A-OK by the start of next year.
[52:50] Yeah.
[52:51] And, and I thought, I didn't think there'd be anything wrong with that.
[52:55] Oh, that's good.
[52:56] It's something to aim for.
[52:57] It's like, it's practical.
[52:59] There's a roadmap, you know.
[53:01] And, and then I spoke to my, I spoke to Maria, who was at that point, my therapist.
[53:08] And, and she, in the only way Maria can told me that is not a very good idea.
[53:14] And I wonder if it's worth explaining why that is not a good idea.
[53:19] Before you jump in, I think it's an important one because I think a lot of people, you just set yourself as the partner, you do look to the future and think by summer it's going to be fine or I think by winter it'll be okay.
[53:34] And also maybe because it was still a relatively new relationship and probably in my head at that time I was thinking like,
[53:41] okay, well, hang on, is this forever or are we able to get through this and have an easy life by this time next year?
[53:48] Yes.
[53:49] Yeah.
[53:49] So there's lots to that.
[53:51] If we look at, this might feel a little bit in depth here, but if we look at the idea of psychological functioning and the tendency that we have to view mental illness as something to be fixed, it's really problematic because,
[54:10] Because pain can't be fixed.
[54:14] Pain is a normal human function.
[54:18] What exacerbates pain is our struggle against it.
[54:21] What gets us stuck is our struggle with it and our dislike and diswant of it.
[54:27] So it's actually in some ways like the aim to get rid of this is actually paradoxically going to increase the struggle and the feeling of pressure to make this go away.
[54:40] How does that sit with you?
[54:41] Yeah.
[54:42] Yeah.
[54:42] Yeah.
[54:43] Yeah.
[54:43] I mean, what you resist persists.
[54:45] Yeah, absolutely.
[54:47] And also it's really kind of fundamental that in essence, there's nothing to fix about you.
[54:51] Like there's, it implies, you know, being broken, obviously that, well, we need to fix this because that means that when we fix this, you'll be better.
[55:00] And if we look at that, that means that if I'm better then, that must mean I'm broken now.
[55:05] Well, I mean, that was my understanding of mental health at that point.
[55:08] It was like, oh, there's something wrong.
[55:11] Yes.
[55:11] There's something wrong with you and we need to figure out, see the right person, take the right medication so you can get through it and you're better again.
[55:18] Yeah.
[55:19] And I think that's a very, very normal and very understandable understanding of mental health.
[55:25] mental illness and it's because it's also come from a, like historically it's come from a medical model of psychopathology, so a medical model of psychiatric illness for example.
[55:37] So we apply this model but if we look into therapy then really what we're looking at here is that here is a struggle
[55:46] And what we're aiming to do is to learn how to live with this so that we can keep heading in the direction that feels meaningful to me.
[55:55] Because pain is an inevitable part of human functioning.
[56:00] And if we try and get rid of it, it will only make it bigger.
[56:03] If we resist it, if we're not open to it, if we deny it, it will only get bigger, basically.
[56:09] Or rule our functioning much more, kind of drive our behavior much more.
[56:13] So there's that part to the reflection.
[56:17] But also like even just on a much kind of simpler level, the goals have to come from the person because only they know what is within their capacity.
[56:28] I think it's a deeply supportive thing.
[56:31] And I know that that kind of idea came from a place of like deeply loving her and wanting her to feel okay.
[56:39] But then like I'm now remembering what Maria said to me or she asked me is like,
[56:44] And if by the end of the year, Jam is not better, how do you think she'll feel?
[56:49] Yeah.
[56:49] If she hasn't met the deadline.
[56:53] Exactly.
[56:53] Yeah.
[56:54] Yeah.
[56:54] The mental health, depression deadline.
[56:57] Yeah.
[56:57] Yeah.
[56:58] And so, you know, it has to come from the individual.
[57:03] for them to determine what is their next move.
[57:07] In terms of goal setting, I mean, I can do a whole episode on this probably, but the goal setting is kind of threefold and it depends upon where we're starting.
[57:17] So if we're deeply, like deep in a struggle and functioning is very impaired, for example, then a goal may simply be to put clothes on today or to brush my teeth or to...
[57:33] Check the letterbox, for example.
[57:35] So we need to be able to check in with our capacity and our functioning first.
[57:39] We would make very small, concrete, measurable goals.
[57:42] And then once we get movement there, then we can look to making shorter-term, mid-term and long-term goals.
[57:49] But in order, like if we don't have the short, the very short-term goals, we can't actually look to making a reasonable and realistic long-term goal.
[57:59] Yeah.
[58:00] Yeah.
[58:01] And yes, it has to come from me being able to tune in with my capacity to be able to undertake this next step.
[58:07] Yep.
[58:08] But having a support person there is absolutely paramount.
[58:12] So, you know, if you say, okay, so what would feel helpful to you?
[58:18] You know, if this is where you want to be, what do you need from me?
[58:23] How can I show up to best support you?
[58:25] And the person might say, I don't really know.
[58:27] You're like, that's okay.
[58:28] I'll just keep checking in.
[58:30] And, you know, on the other side of things, you know, if you're, whether this is less likely with a partner but maybe more likely with a friend,
[58:38] It might be something like I'm going to send them a message every day and I will tell them that I'm not expecting a response.
[58:45] But by me sending a message to you, I'm just letting you know that I'm here.
[58:48] And when you're ready, you can speak to me.
[58:51] So it's kind of maintaining the sense that I'm here for you, but I'm also not pressuring you to give me something that you can't give me right now.
[58:59] But what I will do is I will be there and I will show up.
[59:02] And when you need me, I'll be here.
[59:04] I really like that.
[59:05] Yeah.
[59:06] You know, I had a friend recently who went through something pretty, pretty significant and I felt like a little bit of a stalker, I have to tell you, but I, because I was like, hello, it's me again.
[59:16] Just letting you know, I'm like, I'm here.
[59:20] I think it also takes some zooming out to recognise that if the person isn't responding to you, to not take it personally, just to know, particularly if you already know from a suicide risk point of view that they're safe, if that's a given, then we can know that, no, I'm just going to keep showing up until I'm told otherwise.
[59:39] But most often it will be like a few weeks later they'll be reflecting, it was so kind of you to send me those messages.
[59:46] Like I'm so pleased that you could do that.
[59:49] Yeah.
[59:50] And then for me to go like, yeah, I didn't expect you to respond, but I just wanted you to know I was there.
[59:53] I think that's such a good, that is so good to know, is to not expect, almost like don't expect a response.
[1:00:01] It's almost a selfless act.
[1:00:02] Yes, yes.
[1:00:03] And it's just a reminder that you're not alone here and that when, and again, when you're ready, I will be here.
[1:00:10] And I think it feels, it's also very natural that we will feel,
[1:00:18] and sadness or offended, even if we don't get a response.
[1:00:21] But I think if you really truly know the context that this person is suffering in, then take that into account in terms of your expectations of a response.
[1:00:29] Absolutely.
[1:00:30] Yeah.
[1:00:31] Yeah.
[1:00:31] So that like that's really something to keep in mind.
[1:00:34] So the other part that I wanted to talk about, there are two more parts.
[1:00:39] is identity and also when it trips over into being really unhelpful relationships.
[1:00:46] So first of all,
[1:00:49] What is really interesting I often find in my work is that sometimes we might be in a relationship where historically someone has been the one that has been in need of help and the other person has been the carer.
[1:01:01] And that sometimes we find ourselves in these relationships where that system works.
[1:01:08] So the carer feels valuable, particularly at the start.
[1:01:11] I feel valuable because I'm needed.
[1:01:14] And the person being cared for feels supported and feels like a great gratitude or appreciation that like, I couldn't do this without you.
[1:01:24] And so we've kind of got this like mutually kind of, there's almost like a chemistry here that is mutually beneficial.
[1:01:31] But we know that if I only exist here as a carer, what has happened to my needs as a partner?
[1:01:39] So it might be things like, if this happens over a really long, long period of time, it
[1:01:44] For example, my needs even for like physical intimacy, emotional intimacy, my needs to feel cared and nurtured for for myself are not actually being met and it's not possible for them to be met.
[1:01:58] And that it can sometimes start to feel like I'm no longer a partner, I've turned into a carer.
[1:02:06] And there's a deep grief in that, you know, for the person that's there.
[1:02:10] Yeah.
[1:02:10] You can see that in their eyes when they, people who queue up to talk to us who will say, could you pitch to an episode?
[1:02:17] You can see the loneliness or hurt in their eyes.
[1:02:21] You can see it.
[1:02:22] Yeah.
[1:02:22] And I think you hit on something really important there and that is that it's deeply lonely.
[1:02:27] And it can feel like you've lost, you've lost your sense of self.
[1:02:36] Um, and so this is, you know, the flip side of the coin and that is that it's, um, that we need to pay really strong attention to where my identity is and that I need to find ways to protect myself.
[1:02:51] my core sense of self as in like how I go out and find joyfulness, how I engage in the things that are meaningful for me.
[1:02:58] And also, and this is really significant is how do I enlist support both for me and for the person that I'm also caring for.
[1:03:04] So,
[1:03:07] That might mean like you're going to have to get other people involved to help care for your partner, for example, or to show up.
[1:03:13] Maybe it's caring for the kids whilst you go away or maybe it's that you, I don't know, if there's access to respite.
[1:03:21] And like obviously there's a bit of a minefield going down the path of NDIS and carer funding and things like that.
[1:03:28] It's a whole other ballgame.
[1:03:29] But...
[1:03:30] where is there a possibility for you to get respite so that you can return rejuvenated with your true sense of self, kind of fully resourced in some ways?
[1:03:40] Because I imagine this, I'm thinking like not only people who are not in a partnership, like single people, but even more so single parents who are caring for kids who have low mental health.
[1:04:00] So I imagine that would be a very lonely place for a single parent.
[1:04:04] Yes, without a doubt, without a doubt.
[1:04:07] And I think this is also then therefore, and there's some actually really some great resources out there for carers, particularly for carers of children with disabilities or anyone with a chronic disability in particular, some amazing support groups, and they are absolutely fundamental to your wellbeing and to your capacity to continue to care.
[1:04:27] There are some online peer support groups, which are really great.
[1:04:30] I think Carer Gateway is also a resource.
[1:04:33] I'll add some links to the, but it is absolutely paramount that you have your own support network in there to help you, to give you the resources to keep caring for the people that you love.
[1:04:44] Yeah.
[1:04:46] In there, what also happens is the acknowledgement of there is meaning and sacrifice.
[1:04:54] when we're caring for someone.
[1:04:56] So there's a sacrifice in that.
[1:04:58] There might be for a period of time, at least, a change to our life, a change to the way that we're living.
[1:05:05] It might mean making accommodations.
[1:05:06] It might mean that I have to take care of my own needs.
[1:05:10] And then on the other hand, there's also the great meaning that comes with being able to care for someone and that that is also like, and this often shows up in care research, but that the meaning is what sustains the sacrifice.
[1:05:25] So that's also something really important to keep in mind.
[1:05:30] With respect to getting support, I think we've all heard the expression, you've got to put your own mask on before the mask of others.
[1:05:38] And I cannot remember where I heard this, but it deeply resonated with me.
[1:05:42] And I think it was in reference particularly to mothers in the early childhood, child rearing stage, that the notion of putting on your own mask is actually just far too overwhelming.
[1:05:57] And there's actually entirely misplaced guidance.
[1:06:03] In actual fact, you need someone to put your mask on for you.
[1:06:07] So it's this notion here that like in your support group, and even if you think about people in your life who are supporting others, is you go put your mask on them.
[1:06:17] So you help them so that they can then feel resourced.
[1:06:21] Does that make sense?
[1:06:21] Yeah.
[1:06:22] Yeah.
[1:06:22] Yeah.
[1:06:23] Because I think it takes an enormous amount of effort to know how to put your own mask on and to be able to find the time and the space.
[1:06:31] Like if you are really struggling caring for someone, then I also deeply encourage you to talk about that with other people, not not just your partner or your friend.
[1:06:40] So to talk about that, whether that's with your friends or whether there's other parents or other support people.
[1:06:46] You need to be able to talk about this experience.
[1:06:50] Yeah.
[1:06:51] Yeah.
[1:06:52] So I thought it might be useful also really to be able to recognise when it is that you're feeling, you're beginning to feel really overwhelmed
[1:07:01] and perhaps burnt out as someone that's caring for somebody else.
[1:07:05] And so first, like the number one thing is like this, and I bang on about this all the time, is the capacity to tune in.
[1:07:13] So this kind of internal awareness of my experience.
[1:07:16] So being able to notice like how the body's feeling, being able to notice where the mind is going, being able to notice the feelings that are showing up.
[1:07:25] So that's the first thing.
[1:07:26] We have to have a practice in some capacity to be able to tune in.
[1:07:30] And yes, that like for me personally and in my practice is facilitated by like a daily practice of mindfulness, for example, doesn't have to be long, can be five minutes, just some capacity to be able to check in.
[1:07:42] It can be other things like, you know, doing yoga.
[1:07:45] So we're increasing our bodily awareness, our somatic awareness.
[1:07:49] It can be journaling.
[1:07:51] It can be giving like doing voice notes to yourself.
[1:07:55] That's always helps me.
[1:07:56] Does that?
[1:07:57] Voice notes.
[1:07:57] I do them all.
[1:07:58] Go for a walk and talk to myself on a voice note.
[1:08:01] Yeah, great.
[1:08:01] Yeah.
[1:08:02] And so in essence, we're trying to make meaning and sense of what our current experience is.
[1:08:06] So those kind of two major avenues there is like meaning making through writing or talking or tuning in with the senses, for example, using mindfulness.
[1:08:14] So that's the first thing is we have to be able to tune in.
[1:08:18] to our own internal experience, to know where we're at, what our capacity is, what's affecting us, where our mood is at, for example.
[1:08:25] The second thing is to be able to notice changes in your mood and changes in your functioning.
[1:08:31] So things like this is a really big one, a diminished interest in the things that you used to find enjoyable.
[1:08:39] I don't know, like Hugh, you spoke about that in a previous episode.
[1:08:42] Yeah.
[1:08:42] And that I think is a big warning sign, right?
[1:08:46] So it's a pretty obvious one that this is no longer feeling enjoyable to me.
[1:08:51] I want to emphasise that it is normal that that's going to happen from time to time.
[1:08:55] So don't be alarmed if you go and do your exercise like, oh, this is not feeling good.
[1:08:59] It's more that this is happening over more of a sustained period.
[1:09:02] And typically if we look at like
[1:09:04] DSM criteria, it would be that you're experiencing this and other symptoms for a period of at least two weeks.
[1:09:12] So every day for two weeks.
[1:09:13] So that's one, number one, diminished interest in the things that you used to find pleasurable.
[1:09:18] Things like withdrawing from social contact, avoiding calls.
[1:09:24] I find like a big one for me is often like delaying writing back to text messages that it just feels like too annoying or too hard to turn to.
[1:09:34] And then also engaging in more avoidant behaviour.
[1:09:38] So scrolling, doom scrolling, spending a long time,
[1:09:41] sitting in the phone in this space of avoidance basically.
[1:09:44] So anytime avoidance is starting to show up in any capacity, whether that's psychological avoidance by kind of turning inward or physical avoidance by not attending things anymore, withdrawing from other people, that's a really big one.
[1:10:00] Obviously, if there's any feeling of resentment and irritability, yes, definitely big warning signs.
[1:10:05] Like if we notice this showing up like we're like, okay, here is something for me to pay attention to.
[1:10:09] This is vital information.
[1:10:11] What is it telling me?
[1:10:12] So that's there.
[1:10:14] Changes in sleep.
[1:10:16] appetite, movement and daily tasks like daily showering, cleaning your teeth, brushing your hair, all that sort of stuff.
[1:10:25] So if we notice changes in that, you know, there's some big warning signs.
[1:10:29] What do you mean changes in brushing your teeth and if you just don't do it?
[1:10:33] If you're finding it really difficult to do, to undertake daily tasks.
[1:10:36] And that's really kind of moving us into depressive symptoms, depressive territory, I should say.
[1:10:42] So that's like, that's something to really kind of pay attention to.
[1:10:45] I think if we look at, even if we look at the kind of criteria around burnout, for example, it's that we start to feel like what I'm doing is really useless or that I'm having no impact here.
[1:10:56] So I'm starting to feel like my contribution is not particularly significant and also that I'm not receiving any praise for it or any acknowledgement of it.
[1:11:06] That's like, that's also another really big one.
[1:11:08] So we start to feel really kind of disillusioned.
[1:11:12] by the current world that we're living in.
[1:11:15] So there's some of the really big ones that we want to pay attention to.
[1:11:17] Obviously, there's much more nuance in that.
[1:11:20] But again, like this kind of main criteria here is the attunement to me, to be able to notice how am I feeling, what is happening, what are my resources, and then what do I do next?
[1:11:33] So what's the next step I can take?
[1:11:36] And that's going to be a myriad of options, obviously.
[1:11:38] So therapy might be one, connection, support from others, noticing and labelling it.
[1:11:44] It also really, in my mind, requires a discussion with the partner.
[1:11:49] Like I'm really struggling here.
[1:11:51] And like I said, I want to be able to care for you because I know you're having a really hard time.
[1:11:56] I'm also really struggling with this too.
[1:11:58] Yeah.
[1:11:59] So it's, again, these are very difficult, painful conversations to have, but the silence is, is really very corrosive.
[1:12:07] Yeah.
[1:12:09] I can imagine in that situation that there's obviously the fear that if you said I'm really struggling to someone that you would assume that they would feel bad.
[1:12:19] For some reason, my brain went to a point where they might feel bad.
[1:12:23] that is connecting and bonding to hear you're not just always fine and I'm always the one struggling.
[1:12:33] I don't know.
[1:12:33] Does that ring true?
[1:12:35] Yeah, it might be and it might be for some people it might feel assuring.
[1:12:42] For other people it might feel like I'm being blamed.
[1:12:45] Yeah, I can see it going by the way.
[1:12:47] It's tricky.
[1:12:47] Yeah, yeah.
[1:12:48] Yeah.
[1:12:50] And whilst I think of it, actually, what often, what is really fascinating in the work that I do often is that sometimes when someone starts to get well, the relationship doesn't work as well.
[1:13:01] Yeah, yeah.
[1:13:02] And that is something really to kind of pay attention to, I think, that when your partner starts to get better...
[1:13:08] What's the health of the relationship like?
[1:13:11] It sounds paradoxical, but it might be that now that this person is well, what's happened to my value over here as carer?
[1:13:17] It's no longer there.
[1:13:18] So who am I if I'm not caring?
[1:13:20] And so sometimes it's like our relationship functions better when you're sick.
[1:13:25] It's really, it's complicated.
[1:13:27] But it's just again, something just to notice and to turn the attention to.
[1:13:30] Yeah.
[1:13:30] That is complicated.
[1:13:32] So then there's one other aspect that I just want to mention and it's a tricky one because it moves into DV work.
[1:13:42] So I'm just going to tread, and when I say DV, I mean domestic violence, I'm just going to tread on the line where it's not pushed into great risk to life here.
[1:13:52] But one of the things I do want to mention is that there
[1:13:56] that a mental health struggle, whilst it's very real and very valid, is also never an excuse for unacceptable behaviour.
[1:14:05] And I think that this is a really very tricky place to be in, particularly and, you know, particularly, for example, with things like depression, irritability is a very common feature.
[1:14:19] It's very natural that that happens.
[1:14:21] But also what can come with that is anger and aggression and
[1:14:25] and name calling and attribution of blame and behaviour that can feel very unsafe at times.
[1:14:33] And again, I'm not talking about moving into the more severe end of the spectrum here, but I really want to acknowledge like this and disentangle, which is very tricky,
[1:14:44] to disentangle what is your struggle and what is also not acceptable.
[1:14:49] Like if you continue to talk to me in that way, I'm not, it makes it impossible for me to be able to help you.
[1:14:56] So if at all possible, being able to acknowledge that yes, you're struggling and it's not acceptable for you to talk to me that way.
[1:15:04] Yeah.
[1:15:05] This is much more nuanced and I'm only really kind of touching the surface here, but I just want to give that a flag that it cannot be an excuse or a reason as to why you're being treated poorly.
[1:15:16] Yeah.
[1:15:18] And so in that space also, if it is possible for you as the partner or a friend or a parent to be able to get, you know, if it's accessible to get therapy and if not to get some online support in some capacity.
[1:15:32] Yeah.
[1:15:34] Because it's at that point too that at the milder end of the spectrum, obviously, it's at that point that relationships break down, that I can't stay in this relationship when you continue to treat me really poorly even though I know you're really struggling.
[1:15:49] And then that comes to a point where we as individuals are
[1:15:53] are absolutely within our rights to make decisions at the end of the day that is really about caring also deeply for me in here too.
[1:16:00] Yeah.
[1:16:00] That I don't have to continue to make this sacrifice if I'm not also being cared for by their love at a minimum.
[1:16:07] Yeah.
[1:16:08] Yeah.
[1:16:08] That's such a God, what a crucial part of it.
[1:16:12] Yeah.
[1:16:14] Yeah.
[1:16:15] And I mean, it gives way, this whole topic gives way to so many uncomfortable emotions.
[1:16:22] And I might do an episode on guilt.
[1:16:25] This is, this sits at the heart of it.
[1:16:28] Often it's navigating this experience here.
[1:16:30] Yeah.
[1:16:32] Is there, if you're with someone, if you're in a relationship with someone who has really struggled and has been struggling for a long time.
[1:16:40] I'm sure there'd be a feeling of I can't leave.
[1:16:45] They need me.
[1:16:46] Yes.
[1:16:47] Yeah.
[1:16:47] I feel like I'm putting them at risk because of the dynamic that's been built between the two of you.
[1:16:54] I feel like they'll be at risk if I leave, like they won't be able to handle the breakup.
[1:16:58] Now that is a very classic man thing to think where it's like they won't be able to handle losing me.
[1:17:05] But I don't mean that.
[1:17:06] I mean more like if they're really struggling.
[1:17:08] Yeah, I think that's very real.
[1:17:11] Not only that, to put it in a less man way, like not that I think you were, but I think also when there are kids involved and you think, yeah, I can't leave because of the kids or something.
[1:17:25] There's that added guilt there.
[1:17:27] Yeah, absolutely.
[1:17:28] And I think, you know, like I've said, it may be really useful to have like a whole episode devoted to guilt because I think it's a human emotion that we will all experience, but we can be deeply pushed around by it and it can deeply drive our choices, um, that, and sometimes those choices may not be in the direction that are really actually most helpful for us.
[1:17:46] Um, it's very complicated.
[1:17:48] It's deeply complicated and complex.
[1:17:51] Um, and yes, that example is not uncommon.
[1:17:55] And then that brings us into also kind of navigating suicide risk, which is again, another whole topic in and of itself.
[1:18:04] And I think that maybe that deep in this too is this acknowledgement that I cannot be solely responsible for the life of someone else.
[1:18:14] And that's really hard.
[1:18:17] But, you know, for example, if I stay so that this person stays alive
[1:18:24] it's almost like I die.
[1:18:24] Mm.
[1:18:26] You know, like it's like I've abandoned myself.
[1:18:28] Mm.
[1:18:29] to do that.
[1:18:30] But that's a horrible choice to even think about.
[1:18:35] Yeah, yeah.
[1:18:37] And I feel like I've been very, this feels very, very hard to talk about.
[1:18:41] It is.
[1:18:43] Yeah, yeah.
[1:18:44] But I think it also really warrants being able to verbalise these dilemmas that we face all the time and how hard it is to make the decision that might feel...
[1:18:54] like deep in your heart, really the right thing to do.
[1:18:58] Because sometimes making that decision means a lot of pain for somebody else.
[1:19:05] Yeah.
[1:19:06] I always remember this particular saying that a psychologist friend of mine told me, and that is that you can't be the wounder and the healer at the same time.
[1:19:14] And I think that feels like in some ways quite pertinent to this.
[1:19:18] And that is that I want to care for you.
[1:19:21] I deeply care for you.
[1:19:23] I deeply love you.
[1:19:24] If I leave you, I'm going to wound you.
[1:19:26] But then I also want to come back and heal you at the same time from my wound that I gave you.
[1:19:31] Oh, yeah.
[1:19:33] So we can't do both.
[1:19:34] Yeah.
[1:19:34] Yeah.
[1:19:35] It's certainly really complicated and nuanced and
[1:19:39] You know, I know that so many of us experience this all the time.
[1:19:44] I think particularly, obviously, as we move into like what's known as the middle years, like this is a dynamic that is very, very common.
[1:19:52] And it's something that we need to kind of hold with such compassion and really honour each of our own unique experiences in there.
[1:20:01] Um, and just to know, like even by us talking about it, that you're not alone.
[1:20:05] You're not alone in that experience, even though you might feel deeply lonely when you're in it.
[1:20:12] Yeah.
[1:20:13] Yeah.
[1:20:17] I feel like you've done so many great episodes for us, but that I think will have such a reaching impact on so many people.
[1:20:23] Well, I think, I mean, anyone who has chosen to listen to The Imperfects at any point may, are either probably struggling with something or they know someone who is.
[1:20:32] So it really does relate to, I would say, most people listening to this podcast.
[1:20:36] Absolutely.
[1:20:37] Yeah.
[1:20:38] I feel like it's really uplifting now.
[1:20:41] Change is possible.
[1:20:42] That's what I will tell you.
[1:20:43] Change is entirely possible and I'm a big believer in that.
[1:20:46] Otherwise, I would not do this job.
[1:20:47] Yeah.
[1:20:48] Yeah.
[1:20:49] The other uplifting thing that we should say is that the best book of the year, Unstuck.
[1:20:55] If you like listening to Dr. M on the Imperfects, then you will love reading her book or listening to her book, Unstuck, which is out May 20.
[1:21:07] It's a bestseller.
[1:21:09] It is a bestseller.
[1:21:10] Well, it's already a bestseller.
[1:21:12] We'll see.
[1:21:12] We'll see.
[1:21:13] Well, we've seen.
[1:21:14] And it is.
[1:21:15] We've seen.
[1:21:16] We saw and we're reporting it.
[1:21:20] Excellent.
[1:21:20] Well, thank you so much for having me.
[1:21:22] It's just the best thing here.
[1:21:23] Thanks, Em.
[1:21:24] Thank you.
[1:21:25] Thank you.
[1:21:26] If you enjoyed this episode but want a little bit more, we've got some good news.
[1:21:29] We have a brand new show called A Little More Imperfects and it's on Patreon.
[1:21:33] For a little bit of money, you'll get access to bonus episodes with Hugh, Ryan and Josh every fortnight.
[1:21:38] Early access to live events plus other things we haven't even thought of yet.
[1:21:42] Visit patreon.com slash theimperfects.

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