# Penny Moodie's New Book - OCD & Finding Joy Again

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 13 Sep 2023, 46 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/fwes7sulesuybd97ti54z96t.mp3

Penny Moodie first shared her OCD story on The Imperfects in 2020. Since then, we and she have been flooded with incredible feedback from OCD sufferers who finally felt seen. Now Penny is back because she’s written an incredible book about OCD called The Joy Thief and it’s out now (link below). In this beautifully moving episode, Penny talks openly with Hugh, Ryan and Josh about some of the confronting moments from her book. The reason Penny calls OCD ‘the joy thief’ is because it attempts to steal so much of the joy from your life. In Penny’s case, it almost stole her blossoming relationship with Hugh in the early days, and as a child it tried to take the one thing she held most sacred - the safety of her mother. This may be a b-b-b-bonus episode, but it’s also a v-v-v-very special one. To purchase Penny's book, The Joy Thief, follow this link: https://bit.ly/3RkMTuC To learn more about OCD and to access resources to assist with getting help and how to manage it, follow these links: • So OCD - https://soocd.com.au/ • This Way Up - https://thiswayup.org.au/ • The International OCD Foundation: https://iocdf.org/ The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] My name's Ryan Shelton.
[0:01] I'm a co-host on The Imperfects, the Jewish grandson of Austrian and English immigrants, and I grew up on and am now currently living on Wurundjeri country.
[0:10] I'd like to recognise the traditional peoples of this continent whose land was stolen nearly 250 years ago.
[0:16] In particular, we at The Imperfects would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded, and we extend our respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
[0:29] The rich storytelling history of the world's oldest living culture is what we proudly pay homage to when we share stories on The Imperfects.
[0:41] Book launch bonus episode.
[0:45] Isn't it?
[0:46] It's exactly what it is.
[0:47] This is exciting.
[0:48] This is exciting.
[0:50] It's our first book launch.
[0:52] Yeah.
[0:53] I mean, you've written books, Hugh, but... We didn't launch them here, though.
[0:56] We didn't launch them here.
[0:57] You had a much bigger stage.
[0:58] Yeah.
[0:59] Like, literally, you had a stage.
[1:00] Oh.
[1:01] Yeah.
[1:01] This is a much bigger audience.
[1:02] This is a much bigger audience.
[1:03] Yeah.
[1:04] This is exciting.
[1:05] We're joined by Penny Moody, my wife, who is here to talk about her book.
[1:11] New book you've written.
[1:13] I feel like I should apologise first, but not to you guys, but just to the listeners, because I have this feeling of, like, people are going to hear this and be like, fuck.
[1:21] Not again.
[1:22] Not again.
[1:23] Oh, no.
[1:24] She's back again.
[1:24] No, no, no.
[1:25] We're on every week.
[1:26] Ben must be thinking about it all the time.
[1:27] Oh, jeez.
[1:28] Ryan again?
[1:29] He's always there.
[1:32] Not at all, Penny.
[1:33] No.
[1:34] In my defence, it's a bonus episode.
[1:35] Like, I'm not taking anyone's.
[1:37] No, it is.
[1:37] I've just, like, attacked myself and now I'm defending myself.
[1:39] But, like... We're having the full war over by yourself.
[1:42] Well, to make it very clear, this is definitely our idea to have you on.
[1:46] Yeah, I haven't forced my way in.
[1:47] No, absolutely not.
[1:48] Thank you, though, for having me on.
[1:49] You're heckling yourself and instead of yourself.
[1:52] Well, it's well worth people listening to this one because this is – so for anyone who's listened for a while, you might have gone back, you might have heard, but the first time you were on – this was years ago now and you came on and you spoke about your sort of life with OCD.
[2:06] Yeah.
[2:07] And explained to all of us really for the first time what OCD actually is.
[2:13] but then also probably even more importantly what it's not and what the misconceptions are of OCD.
[2:20] I think we should probably say what the book is, give the title of the book.
[2:23] It's called The Joy Thief and it's out now.
[2:26] It is.
[2:27] You can buy it now.
[2:27] And also just a little thing to say just before we get right into it, we probably will talk about pretty heavy and some really heartbreaking stuff, but there is so much hope in this book.
[2:40] So we will talk about that later as well.
[2:42] And it's also probably worth mentioning there's so much science and research in this book and resources that are all at the back of the book.
[2:48] But as I was reading it, I was like blown away by how much I was learning.
[2:52] So it's such a well-researched, beautiful book.
[2:54] I've just seen a line here.
[2:56] It's also got a lovely picture of Penny where it describes her.
[2:58] And then afterwards it says, she lives in Melbourne with her kids, husband and a disastrously naughty black Labrador.
[3:03] So even Vance gets a mention.
[3:05] I mean, I continue to have people stop me on a weekly basis to say, people often talk about different episodes, but about once a week, someone will say Penny's episode.
[3:15] It's not uncommon to hear it save their life.
[3:17] And I think, and after we did our live show, when we'd meet the audience afterwards, every single show we did, someone was there saying that your episode saved their life because you were talking about...
[3:29] I see in a way that no one's ever really, we so flippantly use the term OCD about having a clean bathroom or a clean car.
[3:36] It's so far from that.
[3:37] It is the most, it's so crippling.
[3:40] It's devastating.
[3:41] It's heartbreaking.
[3:42] And it's very misunderstood.
[3:44] And the way people come up to me and talk to me about it, I almost feel like people must've talked about the first time they heard about, you know, when depression was first discovered and they're like, oh, that's, that's what I have.
[3:53] Okay.
[3:53] I'm not, I'm not crazy.
[3:55] This is, this is a thing that I've got.
[3:59] Well, I mean, to quote you from the book, Penny, this is a line that I really liked, I thought was really good.
[4:05] Once I was finally diagnosed with OCD, it felt like I'd been given a map that showed me how to escape the maze.
[4:11] And I feel like that really helped me understand.
[4:14] It's like, oh, that makes sense to me.
[4:16] Because I know what it's like being stuck in a maze and I hate it.
[4:20] So I finally, I can relate.
[4:23] I can relate.
[4:24] Just like a hedge maze, like one of those kids.
[4:27] I went to a hedge maze with my niece and I was with Jam as well and I told Tegan, my niece, how to get out of any maze, like told her the trick and Jam was furious at me.
[4:38] What's the trick?
[4:40] Oh, spoiler alert, everyone, because Jan was angry because she was like, don't tell her how to get out.
[4:44] It takes all the fun away from the maze.
[4:47] Yeah.
[4:47] But if you want to know how to get out of a maze, all you have to do is put your left hand on the left wall or your right hand and just keep following the wall.
[4:58] Even if you go to a dead end, hit the wall and you'll get out eventually.
[5:03] So is that a rule for maze makers that you have to create something that that...
[5:07] Well, you just have.
[5:08] That's just how it works because you'll always find.
[5:10] You might have to walk a long way, but you'll always find.
[5:12] You'll always get there.
[5:13] Yeah.
[5:13] The out.
[5:14] Yeah.
[5:14] Which is exactly the same as OCD.
[5:16] You just put your left hand on a wall.
[5:18] Yeah.
[5:21] I've taken 250 pages to.
[5:25] Sorry, Penny.
[5:26] No, it was just a little detail.
[5:27] But yes, I think that what you wrote there about the maids, that helped me really, really understand it.
[5:32] There was a lady in Perth who came up to me and her mum was there with her and she was a young mum and she had actually...
[5:42] she was in tears the second she came up to me and just said that she had developed a very severe case of the new written about in your book but pedophilic um ocd which is i think the most horrific thing i've i can i've heard can you explain what that is penny
[5:57] Yeah.
[5:57] How to feel like OCD.
[5:59] Yeah.
[6:00] We're going to start there.
[6:01] Yeah.
[6:01] Well, no, I mean like, I mean, she brought it up, but it is like, it's a big one to start with, but I feel like we should clarify what it is.
[6:06] No, absolutely.
[6:07] But this is common for like a lot of people experience this.
[6:09] So I think it's like we might as well just jump right in.
[6:11] Like there's no.
[6:11] Yeah.
[6:12] Yeah, absolutely.
[6:13] I mean, people with OCD will have different kind of themes that take hold.
[6:19] And for some people they'll change throughout their life, like.
[6:22] It was my experience.
[6:23] Some people might just be one theme, might be really stubborn and won't move.
[6:28] And one of the themes is that you are terrified that you're a pedophile.
[6:34] Like what could be worse than that in a lot of people's minds?
[6:37] Definitely.
[6:38] That's like the most shameful, awful thing.
[6:41] Yeah.
[6:42] And you truly believe that you're like, no, this must be me.
[6:45] I must be...
[6:47] your brain just starts to convince you of it.
[6:52] And I think most people with OCD like
[6:56] deep down know they're good people and it's not – but logic doesn't – once you're in the depths of OCD, logic doesn't help.
[7:07] It doesn't work.
[7:09] And the more you think about it, the more you convince yourself that the worst must be true and you start to lose grip on reality.
[7:19] You then perform compulsions.
[7:20] You might perform compulsions.
[7:21] To try and somehow in your head, if I do this, then this won't be the case.
[7:25] Yes.
[7:26] Yeah, it might be that, like it might just be trying to think your way out of it.
[7:32] Like it might be like, okay, I need to sit here and I need to think of all the reasons why I'm not a pedophile.
[7:38] Or maybe I need to go to my partner and be like, and ask them and they can convince me because I can't quite trust myself.
[7:45] And I think it's also maybe important to clarify what OCD often is.
[7:51] Yeah, of course.
[7:52] Because for those who haven't heard the other episode that you did with us and don't know, like for example, before we were recording this episode, I was just at a cafe and I saw a friend of mine and I said, we're recording this episode with Penny about her book on her OCD and about OCD in general.
[8:09] Yeah.
[8:11] And his response, and he wasn't joking or being, you know, disrespectful or anything, but he said, he goes, oh, God, a person with OCD writing a book, does that mean that, like, you know, all the words and the letters and the lines have to be perfectly aligned?
[8:24] And, you know, that kind of classic understanding misconception of what OCD is that we've kind of learnt from films and things like that.
[8:34] But what this book really helped, I mean, I already understood it from you explaining it to me, but reading this, I mean, I'm only like 50 pages in, but it really helped me understand, especially around the thoughts like what we were just talking about.
[8:49] Yeah, so I can just give you like a really brief rundown, but basically OCD would be the presence of obsessions.
[8:58] So they'd be thoughts or feelings or images in your head and then the presence of compulsions.
[9:08] So that's behaviours that you use to try to get rid of the anxiety that these obsessions bring up.
[9:15] And together, like the compulsions will just spur the obsessions on and on and on.
[9:22] So the more you do the behaviours, the worse the obsessions will become.
[9:27] So rather than alleviating the anxiety, it actually fuels the anxiety.
[9:31] So it usually alleviates the anxiety for a little bit.
[9:34] It might be like a couple of minutes.
[9:35] It could be a few hours.
[9:36] Could, yeah.
[9:37] But it'll come back stronger.
[9:39] So what's like an example for you, particularly when you're a kid, what's like an example of those, the obsessions?
[9:46] Can I read a bit to answer that question?
[9:48] Just there's a bit that really, because I know you're putting your head, you're going through like this, what are my options here, but there's one bit that really.
[9:54] No, it seems fitting that Penny doesn't explain it.
[9:56] It seems great.
[9:58] Getting my husband to explain it.
[10:00] He'll do a better job.
[10:01] We're just going to get Hugh to mansplain Penny's OCD to her.
[10:07] With her book that she wrote.
[10:10] That's like when the book came.
[10:11] The book came yesterday in the mail and I couldn't even have a chance to look at it because someone had, you know, I was looking after the kids, someone had pooed their pants and someone had.
[10:20] Not me.
[10:21] No, no.
[10:21] Worth clarifying.
[10:24] The dog had chewed up something and I couldn't, you know, and then finally there was like a moment of peace and Elsie, and I said to Elsie, Elsie, look, Mummy's written a book.
[10:32] And she just looked at me and she said, no, Daddy bought this book for you.
[10:35] This is Daddy's book.
[10:36] I'm like, no, no, no, Mummy wrote this one.
[10:39] Daddy's had his time.
[10:43] Daddy's not writing any more books.
[10:45] Yeah.
[10:46] Daddy's been away for a long time.
[10:48] Mummy's turn to be away.
[10:49] Mummy writes the books in this family.
[10:52] I think I jumped the gun.
[10:53] Maybe you answer that.
[10:54] No, no, go for it.
[10:55] There's a part I'm particularly proud of that I'd like to share because I think it must be very hard for you to write about and it's heartbreaking, but it also answers Ryan's question.
[11:02] Yeah, no, I reckon go for it.
[11:03] Okay.
[11:04] And I feel like it's you reading the book, you might feel a bit weird doing that.
[11:07] So this is an excerpt from The Joy Thief.
[11:09] Yes.
[11:10] So the dedication, I just want to read out the start of the book because it's very moving.
[11:15] Are you reading the whole book?
[11:17] This is the audio book.
[11:19] Published 2023.
[11:24] I do.
[11:26] For my mum, Anne, who never stopped trying to understand.
[11:30] Now, I just really found that very moving because knowing your mum and your relationship with your mum.
[11:35] So this bit here, in part to answer Ryan's question around what are some of the obsessions that you would have, this is one that I found particularly heartbreaking, which I didn't actually know about until I read this.
[11:48] And, yeah, it'll become obvious why I referenced your mum.
[11:53] Providing constant reassurance to a child or anyone with OCD isn't particularly helpful in the long term.
[11:59] However, at this stage, no one knew that I had OCD.
[12:02] So you were probably about 11 or 12 years old at this point, I think.
[12:06] However, at this stage, no one knew that I had OCD.
[12:09] And this fact wouldn't come out for a very long time.
[12:11] It was the 1990s, an excellent era for boob tubes and camo pants, but not so much for nuanced discussions around mental health.
[12:19] I was pestering my mum multiple times a day, but apart from that, I was very good at hiding my distress.
[12:24] I did well at school, I had plenty of friends, and I was an excitable, enthusiastic, albeit overly anxious child.
[12:29] Constant rumination and reassurance seeking were the only ways I knew to pacify my anguish, and I struggled to think about what I have done without my mum's unwavering support.
[12:40] This is why one obsession I developed when I was 10 years old was particularly upsetting.
[12:46] I've been camping with my Irish friend, Bridget, and her slightly dysfunctional family at a seaside town near Barcelona for 10 days.
[12:52] This is when you were living over in Europe.
[12:54] Yeah.
[12:54] Obviously, there's a long way to travel.
[12:58] No matter how much time I spent with them, I was always entranced by their strong north, northern Irish accents.
[13:03] You're about to do an accent.
[13:07] Linda, Bridget's mum, was a lovely, softly spoken woman who was constantly exasperated by her kids.
[13:12] Bridget was a sharp-tongued tomboy with a habit of getting into punch-ups with her brother.
[13:17] Throughout the vacation, I was drowning in homesickness and various obsessions, still mostly on the topic of contracting AIDS.
[13:24] You'd spoken earlier in the book about how that was one of your first obsessions was the obsession you had AIDS.
[13:29] I realised that it probably wasn't an option to bring up the subject with my Irish guardians.
[13:33] Hey, guys, I think I might have AIDS.
[13:34] Can someone pass the potatoes?
[13:36] Without a mobile phone or access to email to contact my mum, my safety net had disappeared and I retreated into my head for large parts of the trip.
[13:44] I was trying to enjoy the Spanish sun and wash off my worries by splashing around in one of the many pools at the caravan park, but for much of the time I was on autopilot.
[13:54] I was going around in circles in my head trying to disprove the theory that my brain had established as fact.
[14:00] I had AIDS and I'd soon pass it on to everyone I loved.
[14:04] I wanted desperately to move through the world with the same presence that Bridget possessed.
[14:08] It seemed to me that her biggest dilemma throughout the holiday was working out how many different ways she could stitch up her little brother, strategically placing him in Linda's firing line.
[14:16] But I was stuck.
[14:17] After obsessively counting down the days, hours and minutes until I'd be home, the time finally came to leave Spain.
[14:24] I felt enormous relief as I knocked on our apartment door, knowing I'd soon be able to unload my avalanche of worries onto my mum and feel safe once again.
[14:34] But in the excitement of seeing her face and answering her questions about the trip, my mind was hijacked by a barrage of thoughts.
[14:41] Your mum looks different.
[14:42] This isn't your mum.
[14:44] Something about her has changed.
[14:45] Maybe this is someone pretending to be your mum.
[14:48] I know this sounds very meta and let's be honest completely insane, but that didn't make my thoughts any less alarming to me.
[14:56] My mind had found a way to target the most precious thing in my world and make me question everything I knew to be true.
[15:02] But I couldn't possibly confront this new mystery mum because if it's someone pretending to be her, she'd just say what I wanted to hear, wouldn't she?
[15:11] My mind became tangled in knots and I suddenly felt a bottomless despair that I hadn't known before.
[15:16] I tried to think my way out of it and sank into a deep depression for a few weeks, which my parents most likely put down to tweenage hormones.
[15:24] Eventually the thought subsided, but from that day onwards it felt like my brain had entered a new phase.
[15:29] I no longer knew what was real and what was a trick played by my imagination.
[15:34] I was losing my sanity.
[15:37] I mean, it's the most horrifying thought, Penny, and it's like this is really hard for you now.
[15:44] No, it's fine.
[15:48] I don't know why.
[15:49] No, it's okay.
[15:49] You sure?
[15:50] Oh, it's like it was the most precious thing to you.
[15:55] Your mum was like your – she was what kept you safe from the world and all of a sudden.
[16:01] Like I've written that.
[16:02] I don't know why.
[16:02] It's so weird that I'm getting emotional listening to my own book.
[16:06] Yeah.
[16:07] Do you want to brag for a bit?
[16:08] No, I'm okay.
[16:10] You sure?
[16:10] Yeah.
[16:11] We can.
[16:11] No, that's okay.
[16:13] Okay.
[16:14] It's – I mean, it makes sense to me because – That should do it.
[16:20] A drop.
[16:21] Yeah, you got like one mill in there.
[16:23] With what I've come to know about OCD is your brain really attacks –
[16:29] what is most important to you at that time in your life and tries to take that.
[16:33] I mean, the title, The Joy Thief, that's why it's so apt because it really targets that thing for you in your life at that moment and still very much to this day, your mom, relationship with your mom, it was the most important thing to you as a 10, 11 year old girl and then your brain hijacks that safety in that relationship and it's, it's, it's devastating.
[16:54] Yeah.
[16:55] Yeah, I think that was – I think I'm getting emotional because that was a real – so long ago, but it was such a low point for me and I was so young, you know, and it just makes me sad.
[17:10] But yeah, absolutely.
[17:11] It does target the things that you love, the things that you value and the things that
[17:18] you think, keep you safe.
[17:20] And I was actually recently at this big OCD conference in the US and the first session I went to this great psychologist who I spoke to for the book, Jonathan Grayson, was taking it and he was asking everyone, most people there had OCD and he said, he asked everyone what,
[17:46] to talk about what they've lost to OCD.
[17:49] And because it was in the US, everyone was very quick to put their hands up and contribute, which was awesome.
[17:58] You know, the first person said, oh, I've lost my job.
[18:01] Someone said I lost the chance to have kids.
[18:06] Someone said I lost the ability to have people over to my house.
[18:10] It's like all these different things.
[18:11] And then this young girl who was probably about 12 or 13 put a bare hand and she was like, oh, I've just lost all the joy in my life.
[18:19] And it just...
[18:21] Yeah, it was just I think that's what it does.
[18:23] I think it takes away your joy because as soon as you start thinking the worst about yourself –
[18:33] you start to think, well, I don't deserve to have joy in my life.
[18:36] Like if you start to think, you know, like we were talking about before about pedophilia or OCD, for example, if that's what you think of yourself, you're not going to allow yourself to feel happy or feel like you're going to strive for things or it just takes it all away from you.
[18:53] So, yeah, that was a real low point, I think, for me.
[19:00] It also strikes me as well that because of the way that it targets, a brain with OCD targets you, it seems to hit you at not only the safe places but the things that matter to you the most with the most negative connotation.
[19:19] So it's destined to be sort of swimming in so much shame.
[19:22] Yes.
[19:23] That especially as a child, I can't imagine you'd want to share it.
[19:28] No.
[19:28] So then you're dealing with it alone as well.
[19:31] So I imagine that I just got this reading from the first sort of 30-odd pages I've read, this feeling of there must be so many people who are experiencing this by themselves alone without sharing it because the thought of sharing these thoughts with anyone else is too terrifying.
[19:47] Yeah, absolutely.
[19:48] I think there's so much shame involved in it.
[19:52] And I was so lucky that I felt comfortable enough to talk to my mum and dad about it.
[19:57] And I think that's what completely saved me because they listened without judgment and they didn't know how to help because how would you when you don't know what it is?
[20:07] But they always listened to me and I knew I could go to them.
[20:10] But I think you're right, there are so many people who...
[20:13] wouldn't be comfortable doing that and so they keep it to themselves.
[20:16] And they certainly don't want to talk to a psychologist about it because what would they think?
[20:20] Are they going to take – are they going to call authorities?
[20:23] Like are they going to – you know, so people suffer in silence.
[20:27] Yeah.
[20:28] Yeah.
[20:28] And it – yeah.
[20:29] Yeah, and it's targeted at the thing that you're most ashamed of.
[20:32] Yes.
[20:33] Yeah.
[20:34] So with OCD, a lot of the obsessions are ego dystonic.
[20:40] So that basically means that they're against your values.
[20:44] Yeah.
[20:45] A bit of a way to sometimes separate OCD from anxiety is that OCD will often be ego dystonic thoughts, so they'll be targeting your values, whereas anxiety will often be...
[21:01] ego-syntonic, so things around, you know, like it might be I'm really worried that I'm going to get fired from my job or like I might – so they're not against your values.
[21:11] They're sort of real life things.
[21:13] You feel like you're in danger.
[21:14] Yeah.
[21:14] It's not attacking your values.
[21:15] That's what anxiety is.
[21:16] Yeah, and not trying to downplay anxiety, but that's just the difference.
[21:20] Yeah, yeah.
[21:21] Yeah.
[21:22] And as far as – I don't know if this is the right time to mention this, but it's something that was playing on my mind reading this as well.
[21:30] that dealing with it on your own because we met a little bit after this time that he was just writing, probably a year after that.
[21:38] Yeah.
[21:39] When you, did you come to school in year eight?
[21:42] No, year seven.
[21:42] You did come in year seven.
[21:43] Yeah.
[21:43] Okay.
[21:44] Yeah.
[21:45] But I was the year above you.
[21:46] What are you guys going to talk about when you dated?
[21:49] Is that coming out?
[21:50] Yeah, we're going to talk about Shrek.
[21:52] Yeah, Shrek.
[21:53] At the Bourne Cinema.
[21:54] So it's a great tie-in for the... Where's their mugs?
[21:56] In Musgrove.
[21:57] Yeah, Musgrove is probably where you're dating.
[22:01] No, what I wanted to say was that I, from an outside, from my perspective of knowing you a little bit then, all I saw was this, like, to be honest, the best-looking person in the year below and this, like, incredibly... Not in your year, though?
[22:18] Well... That is such a high school way of thinking, isn't it?
[22:22] As far as the year below, Penny's hottest in the year below, Samantha in our year...
[22:28] You had Matty McMaster in your year.
[22:30] I'm not, yeah.
[22:32] That's very funny.
[22:33] Okay, so yeah, but just to clarify, only in the year below.
[22:36] I didn't even mention that because I remember hearing Josh saying that back in, like, what are you, I was like, yeah, Penny Moon, definitely hottest in the year below.
[22:42] Yeah, done.
[22:43] Second hottest?
[22:46] No, let's not go there.
[22:47] Let's not do it.
[22:48] But I could probably get the point that you were thinking about the rank.
[22:52] Yeah.
[22:53] Probably Charlie Fitzpatrick.
[22:54] Oh, I agreed.
[22:55] Yeah.
[22:56] He was hot.
[22:56] He still is.
[22:57] Yeah.
[22:58] So, yeah, but from my perspective, you could see this, you were just this beautiful, intelligent, kind and wonderful person who never for a million in a million years would I imagine anything was going on inside your brain like that, that your ability to hide it
[23:18] was obviously you become the best expert at the world at hiding your OCD when you have OCD.
[23:24] But I find it really sad to think that you were dealing with that at the time and how fucking hard high school must have been dealing because it's hard enough already.
[23:34] But just the fact that it was completely unknown to me and everyone else and no one would have even guessed for a second, I don't know if there's a question there but it just... Yeah, it's interesting you say that because it is...
[23:49] I don't think I knew if I was doing a good job of hiding it because you never know yourself.
[23:55] But you do become – you're right.
[23:58] You do become a real expert at hiding it because how could you possibly –
[24:05] accept that anyone would know what's going on in your head.
[24:08] What would they think of you?
[24:09] Yeah.
[24:10] I would often go into the toilets at recess or lunch and just try to think my way through what was going on.
[24:18] And that was how I kind of dealt with it.
[24:21] And then I think – high school was really –
[24:24] hard in that sense.
[24:25] I think OCD can often become a lot worse during times of change or upheaval.
[24:32] So that's why I think when we moved overseas, even though I really wanted to go, I was super excited.
[24:36] I had the best time, but it was still a big change and that's when all the AIDS stuff started.
[24:41] Um, and then starting high school was when it got really bad as well.
[24:45] And then, um,
[24:47] having kids, so like those really big life moments where there's a lot of change, I think that's when it's gotten a lot worse for me and I think that's really a common experience.
[24:55] But you certainly learn very quickly that this isn't something that other people should know about.
[25:04] Yeah, because you can't imagine that anyone would understand.
[25:07] No.
[25:08] How can I explain that to anyone?
[25:09] No, you can't.
[25:10] I mean, yeah, I mean, hopefully you can, but as a kid, you can't imagine that they would.
[25:14] Yeah.
[25:15] Hopefully this book will, I imagine this book will help that because you're trying to explain something that no one has any grasp of what that is and only has the misconception that it's about making sure everything, all the pens are lined up on a desk or whatever.
[25:29] Yeah.
[25:30] That's such a steep hill to climb, especially as a 12 or 13-year-old.
[25:35] Yeah.
[25:35] And I reckon this book, just people understanding what it is, suddenly you've got a way in.
[25:43] Yeah.
[25:43] Oh, I hope so.
[25:45] Someone I interviewed, a woman called Liz McIngvale in the US, she actually explained it really well.
[25:51] She said she suffered OCD as a teenager and now is a really well-known therapist.
[25:59] But she sort of said it's become really hard because not only are we trying to explain to people what OCD is, we're also trying to explain to people what OCD isn't.
[26:08] That just becomes so much harder.
[26:10] Yep.
[26:11] Um, so I really hope it does help.
[26:14] But like if someone had told me even like 10 years ago that I would be writing about everything, you know, all of my innermost fears, um, like I would have been like, no, I'd rather die.
[26:27] I really, no, absolutely not.
[26:29] I would have been mortified.
[26:30] You left absolutely nothing out in this.
[26:32] It's an incredible, I, the thing I love so much about it is it's like, um, it's like
[26:36] great storytelling around your life, but then you also have chatted to the world's leading experts on OCD.
[26:41] And so they kind of give the, I guess, the more medical and psychological rigor around what's going on, but then it sits alongside your stories, which I have to say, like as your husband read it, it is heartbreaking to think about how long you didn't know,
[27:00] I was like you were 31 when you were first diagnosed.
[27:03] Yeah.
[27:04] That's like after we were together, pretty much your whole life, you didn't know what you were dealing with.
[27:09] And so many people have come up to me to talk to me about your episode with us.
[27:14] That's what they say.
[27:14] A lot of people say, I just thought I was crazy and I'd accepted that and it was a secret I could never share.
[27:20] But hearing – I mean, this lady that I spoke about who came up to us after the podcast who talked about the pedophilic one –
[27:25] She didn't know what it was, but she was there with her mum and her mum was hugging her and she was saying, she had two young kids, this lady, and she said, I was thinking, it's much better I'm not around.
[27:35] Like I shouldn't be around for my kids.
[27:37] I couldn't do that, so I shouldn't be here.
[27:39] And then she heard your episode and realised that's what it was.
[27:42] Yeah.
[27:42] And so this book is going to, like the two thoughts I had reading, it was first on this book.
[27:51] This is so beautifully written.
[27:52] I'm so happy my wife is doing what she was put on the earth to do, which is to write, and it's going to save lives really well.
[27:57] Thank you.
[27:58] Can I just read another passage quickly that really resonated with me?
[28:02] Because, I mean, it's like it goes through chronologically in your life.
[28:09] And I was so fascinated to find, like, when I come into the book, like, am I a good guy?
[28:14] I hope I'm a good guy.
[28:16] He's a baddie.
[28:18] There had to be a villain, mate.
[28:20] Every story needs one.
[28:23] I do love how it's written in the sense of like it's your story but it's then like dotted with like facts and interviews and like kind of research that you've found from different experts.
[28:34] Yeah, thank you.
[28:35] It makes it really kind of easy to learn.
[28:39] about OCD while learning about your story?
[28:41] Yeah, I think the parts that I'm most proud of, even though the other people's stories that I tell at the end of some of the chapters, and that's just to give it a broader understanding of what it can look like, because it can look like so many different things to different people, and there are some really interesting but really heartbreaking stories in there as well.
[29:01] I mean, some of the stuff that people have shared is so generous of them and vulnerable of them to do so, but...
[29:06] I remember you would come home from, you'd interview these people and you'd come home and tell me their stories and I just couldn't get it out of my mind for a very long time.
[29:13] There's what so many people around the world are going through.
[29:17] Yeah.
[29:18] Not knowing what it is.
[29:18] Yeah.
[29:19] For a long time.
[29:21] So this part of the book happened, we'd been together for probably four months, and it was that everyone will know that exciting period of falling in love and being with someone for the first few months.
[29:31] This was kind of my first glimpse that something, I don't want to say it wasn't right, but there was something going on for you.
[29:39] Well, I think you're right, yeah.
[29:40] Yeah, there was something, I hadn't seen it at all, and then all of a sudden I started to think there's something happening here with Penny that I don't understand.
[29:47] And it turns out you didn't quite understand at the time either because you hadn't been diagnosed yet.
[29:51] But we had, you had, so the background to this is you decided everything was going so well with us and you were feeling really happy and you decided to go off the medication that you're on.
[30:00] You had anti-anxiety medication.
[30:02] Yeah, I was on antidepressants.
[30:04] Antidepressants.
[30:04] And so you decided to, yeah, for years.
[30:06] So you decided to come off.
[30:07] Without any help from any therapist.
[30:09] Yeah, it was really silly.
[30:11] And this little section of the book is called The Drugs Do Work.
[30:15] As irritating and tiring as the anxiety was, it didn't tempt me to go back on the medication.
[30:19] I kept telling myself that I felt more like me again, whatever that meant.
[30:23] I'd broken free of the medication shackles and I was proud of myself.
[30:27] I hadn't taken the pills for about three months when Hugh and I stayed at Palm Cove in far north Queensland during the Easter break.
[30:33] On our first evening, as we were sipping cocktails at the bar overlooking the turquoise waters of the Coral Sea, I felt elated.
[30:40] Holidays were usually the time when my obsessive thoughts would escalate, and yet, at that moment, I felt calm and in control.
[30:46] I've beaten it, I thought.
[30:48] But OCD has a devilish tendency to slap you down when you least expect it.
[30:54] The very next day I was kicking back on the hotel couch, flicking through TV channels, when I settled on a movie from the early 2000s.
[31:01] There was some kind of sex scene in the back of the car.
[31:04] I'd watched plenty of sex scenes on TV over the previous years, and none of them had caused me to spiral.
[31:09] I became fixated on a familiar stream of thoughts.
[31:11] Do I enjoy sex enough?
[31:12] If I don't, does it mean I'm not into Hugh?
[31:15] But I want to be with Hugh.
[31:16] Will I have to leave him?
[31:18] These thoughts kept swirling around and around my head and I was no longer enjoying the tropical weather or the aroma from the nearby seafood restaurant wafting through the open window behind me.
[31:27] I was being abruptly pulled back into the OCD maze and I had no way out.
[31:32] Just one dead end after the other.
[31:34] If only Ryan was there to tell you.
[31:37] Put my left hand out.
[31:40] It would be amazing.
[31:43] I tried to calm my mind with a whine, but it only made things worse.
[31:47] I told Hugh that I was tired and went to bed early, so I could lie down and keep thinking my way through my problem.
[31:54] The next morning, Hugh got ready for an early morning run before breakfast.
[31:58] I knew that exercise often helped me to interrupt my obsessive thought cycle, so I decided to go with him.
[32:04] He could tell that I was being less talkative and more distracted than usual, but I kept explaining that I was tired.
[32:09] Hugh soon got the message I didn't want to talk, and we ran in silence along the sand.
[32:14] It's back, I realised.
[32:15] It's fucking back.
[32:17] My heartbeat quickened, and my breathing became shallow.
[32:20] Before I knew it, I was clutching at my throat and yelling to Hugh that I couldn't breathe.
[32:23] It wasn't because of the running, as I'd hardly broken a sweat.
[32:26] I was having a panic attack, and my body felt like it was shutting down.
[32:30] Hugh tried gently to sit me down and encouraged me to breathe.
[32:33] The problem was that I was breathing too quickly and hyperventilating.
[32:35] I was having a panic attack, and my body felt like it was shutting down.
[32:37] After a few minutes of listening to Hugh's reassuring voice, the panic lessened and I was able to breathe normally again.
[32:42] We were both shaken by the experience and I admitted to Hugh that I was starting to experience repetitive thoughts and feelings of anxiety again.
[32:49] He suggested that perhaps I should think about going back on the medication, but to me that felt like failing.
[32:54] If I went back on medication now, wouldn't I just have to try to get off it again in a few more years down the track?
[32:59] I'd come so far, so I pushed through.
[33:04] I just, I remember that so vividly, that whole, I think we were together for a week, we were away for a week.
[33:11] And I remember that time thinking, oh, she's just not into me anymore.
[33:17] Like, something's happened.
[33:18] And this must happen to people all the time, though, in the relationships with people with OCD.
[33:24] The person with OCD is not present at all.
[33:27] And you're quite sort of cold for that.
[33:29] I understand now why, but...
[33:31] I just remember being shattered on that whole trip, just going, well, that's done.
[33:34] Oh, that's really sad.
[33:36] Yeah.
[33:36] That's why I find it hard to read that, because I remember that awful feeling of this is not...
[33:41] Because Penny, is there part of like you when you live with OCD and so you've started a new relationship with this hunk?
[33:52] Nice looking guy in his ear.
[33:56] Easily.
[33:57] And it's going really, really well.
[34:00] But is there part of you that thinks, because if the OCD hasn't popped up in a little while, is there part of you that thinks he's the cure?
[34:09] You know, like the love that I feel, this is the thing, not like Hugh Van Kallenberg was the secret key, but like finding love, did you think like that's all it needed to be?
[34:21] I think so.
[34:22] I think I was getting so much like oxytocin from that new relationship that I was thinking, oh, it's gone now.
[34:31] This is, yeah, this is all I need.
[34:36] But also like maybe it's just run its course.
[34:39] Like maybe it's just because I always had this feeling of like it won't be here forever.
[34:43] This can't be here forever.
[34:45] It'll go one day.
[34:46] And then I think when this was all happening, I was like, oh, I think I've beaten it.
[34:49] I don't know how, but I think I've beaten it.
[34:52] So that was the reason why I was like, I don't need medication anymore.
[34:58] Yeah.
[34:58] And so the panic when it started to come back.
[35:00] Yeah.
[35:01] Yeah.
[35:01] Yeah.
[35:01] It was really awful.
[35:03] And, um, and look, medication won't work for everyone.
[35:07] And, but I just, in that chapter, you know, I sort of go on to explain it, but I felt a lot of shame around medication for a long time, but I have to say now I don't have any of those feelings of shame.
[35:19] I'm,
[35:20] very happy to think that I'll probably be on medication forever and it doesn't bother me at all.
[35:25] And I know not everyone's, you know, everyone thinks differently about it, but just that's, that's kind of where I've ended up.
[35:31] Yeah.
[35:32] Well, when we got back from that trip, I remember you were living with your parents.
[35:36] I was living in Fitzroy and I just didn't hear from you from a couple of days and I was messaging and you were giving very short messages and I thought, well, we're definitely down here.
[35:43] And I was so shocked because to me it was like, this is definitely the person and I don't know what's happened to you.
[35:48] And I just like, just the, I'll read this very quickly.
[35:52] The follow on, this is what you're actually going through.
[35:53] When I was feeling sorry for myself thinking, I don't know what I've done.
[35:56] This is what was actually happening.
[35:58] So this is when we got back.
[36:00] My mental state deteriorated in sync with Melbourne's weather as autumn turned to winter.
[36:03] It happened in three stages, anxiety, obsessive thoughts, and then depression.
[36:09] I felt more irritable at work and within my relationships than usual.
[36:12] I started doubting all the decisions I was making and my self-esteem vanished altogether.
[36:17] Within weeks, the negative self-talk was drowning out any of the positive things that were happening in my life.
[36:22] I asked myself why Hugh wanted to be with me and why I was such an imposter in my role at work.
[36:26] I convinced myself that no one liked or respected me and that I was a fraud.
[36:30] It felt as if there was a dense black cloud over my head and I started to actively push people away so they didn't have to experience the shadow that the cloud was casting over me.
[36:40] And I remember this bit so well.
[36:42] One day after work, while I was sitting waiting for a tram on Collins Street, I spoke to Hugh on the phone and basically told him to leave me alone because I wasn't worth the effort.
[36:50] Then I slumped onto the footpath
[36:53] I really dragged my heels from the tramp stop to my parents' house where I was living.
[36:57] I hoped that they'd be there and that they would ask me what was wrong so I wouldn't have to volunteer the fact that I was falling into a deep well of sadness.
[37:03] They had just returned from a hike in New Zealand and were happy I was home so they could show me the slideshow of their holiday.
[37:10] After each photo, my dad looked at me, his face beaming.
[37:13] He didn't register my hostile attitude or take any notice of my pathetic grunts of approval.
[37:18] He just kept going, as dads tend to do when in slideshow mode.
[37:25] I think I'm deeply, deeply depressed, I blurted out, while Dad was explaining to me that he was always the one lagging at the back of the pack, even though he thought he was one of the fittest people there.
[37:39] He sat down with me and used gentle questions to try and break down the anger and defensiveness I was holding on to.
[37:44] I just remember that so much.
[37:46] It was like you were trying to end the relationship without – I kept asking why, and you didn't really have a reason.
[37:52] It was the most confusing thing, but –
[37:54] Thankfully, I didn't listen to what you're suggesting, but there is a relationship OCD as well, which I've heard from so many people now as well, which is where your brain sabotages the relationship and says you shouldn't be in this relationship.
[38:07] And I know quite a few people who have been through that.
[38:11] Another devastating thing.
[38:13] Yeah, yeah.
[38:14] Again, attacking something that you really value.
[38:17] And I think you wouldn't really be having relationship OCD thoughts unless it was someone that you really loved and, you know, someone who meant a hell of a lot to you.
[38:27] But that can absolutely end relationships.
[38:30] It does because you start believing it.
[38:33] And, of course, the person's pushed away.
[38:37] And you can't – and because all relationships have their issues.
[38:40] Like there's no perfect relationship.
[38:42] So then you start to think of all the things, all the reasons why it's not working.
[38:47] And that's very easy to do sometimes.
[38:49] So, yeah.
[38:51] Just because I'm a bloody hopeless romantic.
[38:54] So how do – when you were feeling like you didn't want the relationship to keep going, you're telling who to leave you alone.
[39:00] Like then –
[39:02] How did it keep going?
[39:03] What changed in your head or was you just too bloody persistent?
[39:10] What was the next step?
[39:12] I went back on the medication the next day and I immediately felt better.
[39:17] I immediately had the self-esteem that had just drained away from me just slowly sort of came back and we had dinner the next night, I think, and then we went to some cricket raffle thing for a while.
[39:29] So he just made a date for the raffle.
[39:33] For the raffle.
[39:34] No, that will reignite the flame.
[39:35] The old reverse raffle.
[39:37] That's what it did.
[39:38] Very good raffle.
[39:40] And it was, you know, and I think we sort of just worked through it and there was never, I don't think it, like we were never breaking up.
[39:49] It was just that the communication was really bad for a little while because of that.
[39:54] I think it's worth mentioning that the byline on the book is how it seals your happiness and how to get it back.
[40:00] Yeah, it's not all doom and gloom.
[40:01] And I feel like we haven't talked about the how to get it back at all.
[40:04] And I think we need to tell people, A, I really like that you read that bit because there's some extremely funny lines and funny things in this book, the way you write.
[40:13] I was not, like when I was reading it, I was not expecting to find it funny.
[40:17] You are not funny.
[40:18] Yeah.
[40:19] No, I just didn't expect it to be that type of book.
[40:21] But there is like, I mean, there is so many lines, which I was like sending you, Penny.
[40:25] I was like, there's like lines.
[40:27] I was like laughing out loud.
[40:29] Like there's some really funny bits.
[40:30] Yeah.
[40:31] But maybe it's worth, without wanting to give away the whole book, but it might be worth talking very briefly about the fact that there is things that people can do once they realise that they do have OCD.
[40:43] It's a wonderful take on how OCD steals your happiness and how to get it back.
[40:46] There's so much hope.
[40:46] There's so much hope for people who feel like they're right in the thick of it right now.
[40:51] Yeah, definitely.
[40:52] I would love to think that it's a very hopeful book.
[40:58] I think diagnosis is the start of all that and the start of hope because you can't really get treated unless you know what's going on.
[41:05] So once I was diagnosed and I started to see –
[41:10] a really amazing psychologist who makes many appearances in this book.
[41:14] Like she's weaved throughout all her wisdom.
[41:17] She was like very kindly talked to me a lot.
[41:19] Can we say her name?
[41:20] For this book, Andrea Wallace.
[41:23] Yeah.
[41:25] Once I started seeing her, and this was also in combination with medication, it was like everything changed for me, everything.
[41:34] It hasn't gone away, but it's like I've been able to manage it.
[41:37] And now there are –
[41:40] weeks where I'm not bothered by OCD, you know, weeks at a time.
[41:44] You've written a book while raising three children.
[41:49] That alone is unbelievable.
[41:51] Did you imagine that that was possible, to go weeks without it bothering you the way it has?
[41:55] No.
[41:56] I'd always hoped so desperately that that would be the case, but I don't think I ever thought that that could happen just because I was so deep in this thought pattern.
[42:07] But yeah, it really has changed everything, the treatment.
[42:15] And I talk a lot about exposure and response prevention therapy throughout the book because that's got the most research behind it and it's something like 70% of people who will try it will have really positive results from it.
[42:30] It's really hard therapy but really, really worth it.
[42:35] But I also just want to make the point that it's not the only thing.
[42:39] I talk about other ways to kind of combat OCD alongside EIP as well.
[42:46] And so once you start the therapy, there's so much hope for people to get better.
[42:52] Some people will recover completely.
[42:53] Others will, you know, have it there throughout their lives, be peaks and troughs.
[42:58] But there's a lot of hope and there's also so much research happening at the moment.
[43:05] Because at the moment, if you have OCD, you go on antidepressants and they can generally help.
[43:09] There's a lot of people around the world who are trying to make medication that's specific for OCD sufferers.
[43:18] And so that will come out one day and that will be amazing.
[43:21] So there's so much more to happen and so many amazing people around the world who are working on it.
[43:26] So, yeah, I definitely I think I'm glad you mentioned that, Josh, because it's I think it's a really, really hopeful book.
[43:33] Yeah.
[43:34] Awesome.
[43:35] Yeah.
[43:35] The other thing I'll say very quickly is that I remember once we were talking about your love of writing and how you chose not to go into writing or creative writing at university because you feared that if you actually weren't good at that, then you weren't good at anything at all.
[43:51] and to see that you, at your age now, that you found your way to write it, is what you were put on the planet to do.
[43:58] Your writing is stunning.
[43:59] It's absolutely amazing.
[44:00] I'm incredibly biased, but your writing is so amazing.
[44:04] It's one of those books where you learn so much, but it's also a joy to read.
[44:09] You write beautifully.
[44:11] Thank you.
[44:12] I don't know.
[44:13] There was times she was in the study.
[44:14] I was literally holding the study door closed while three kids were trying to get into the study, like in Jurassic Park.
[44:20] True.
[44:21] The Walking Dead or something.
[44:23] Yeah, it was just, and she still managed to just punch out this extraordinary book that will, I've said it before, it will save so many lives.
[44:30] You're an incredible person, Penny.
[44:32] Thank you.
[44:32] Thanks so much.
[44:33] Why don't you bloody marry her?
[44:35] You love her so much.
[44:38] Thank you, Penny.
[44:41] Thank you.
[44:41] This is so exciting.
[44:42] Can't wait to finish the book.
[44:43] Thanks so much.
[44:50] I'd have to be you.
[45:00] The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh Van Kylenberg, Ryan Shelton and Josh Van Kylenberg.
[45:05] Our executive producer is Bridget North East.
[45:07] This episode is filmed by Andy Poole and edited by George Martin.
[45:10] The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
[45:18] The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.
[45:28] It'll be alright You set the flame by the doorway Let it be my way

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