# Matt D'Avella Tried No-Sleep-Parenting For 10 Months

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 30 Aug 2026, 1 h 09 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/w54fcey3ca0stlpr6rm4j4m2.mp3

What impact does sleep deprivation really have on your wellbeing? What about your parenting? What about your identity? Matt D’Avella has amassed over 4 millions subscribers on YouTube undertaking 30-day wellness challenges, and promoting his minimalist lifestyle. In life that was meticulously controlled, having kids changed everything. 💌Join 9,400+ others in our newsletter community - http://bit.ly/45NyQDy Blessed with a baby who woke every 30 minutes for the first ten months of their life, Matt chats to Hugh, Ryan and Josh about how becoming a new parent impacted every facet of his life. Hugh and Josh share just how lonely they have felt at different times during their parenting journey, and Ryan saves the day by holding a baby for a full 40 minutes (save the applause! please!) Matt this was a dream come true. To watch the full episode on YouTube - https://youtu.be/foilZTRGXco 00:00 - I Tried Being Vulnerable for 30 Days 7:03 - Minimalism Maxxing 18:00 - The Vulnerabilitea House 20:25 - Becoming a father, losing sleep (and himself) 24:14 - Depression Diagnosis Wake-Up Call 32:56 - Hugh's Sleep Score 40:38 - SOS: Hiring Help, Expanding your Village 48:50 - Sleep Training: What Actually Works 52:02 - The Real Cost of Sleep Deprivation 58:29 - Being A Mum: The Additional Burden 1:01:32 - 'Do You Regret Having Kids?' 1:04:00 - The New and Improved Matt D'Ad-Avella 🫖Other Imperfects episodes mentioned in this episode • Dr Edna Lekgabe - New Baby… New Brain… Matrescence - https://bit.ly/4zVt9Si 📺 Things to watch • Minimalism Documentary - https://bit.ly/3SSZb0t • Why I disappeared - Matt D’Avella - https://bit.ly/3SwYA4g • Matt D’Avella YouTube - https://bit.ly/4wOzFXW 💤 Things to sleep train • Tresillian Sleep Organisation - https://bit.ly/4zAGTS5 • The Ferber Sleep method - https://bit.ly/4iCdqB4 • Masada Sleep School - https://bit.ly/4qNi7uc 📚Things to read • Regretful Parents subreddit - https://bit.ly/4gx9W0b 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - patreon.com/theimperfects 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

## Transcript

[0:00] Have you had any joyful moments in the past week?
[0:04] No.
[0:05] Do you often have feelings of anger or resentment?
[0:08] It was like every single one, it was clear that I was going through something serious.
[0:14] Matt D'Avella made a name for himself on YouTube.
[0:17] My name's Matt.
[0:18] So I've been a minimalist for over 14 years.
[0:20] Amassing an enormous audience who eagerly watch as he puts himself through more and more uncomfortable, but controlled, self-development challenges.
[0:30] I think I started with cold showers for 30 days, and then I did quitting social media for 30 days, and then meditating for 30 days.
[0:37] But his greatest challenge was something he couldn't control.
[0:42] That was just like the beginning of this 10-month period where my wife and I just got no sleep day after day.
[0:51] He describes the extreme effects of sleep deprivation on new parents.
[0:56] I was diagnosed with depression at that time.
[0:58] My wife was diagnosed with PTSD.
[1:00] It progressively got worse and worse.
[1:01] And so it went from him waking up five times a night to him waking up 15, 20 times a night, which is basically every 30 minutes.
[1:09] I'm a bit of a perfectionist.
[1:11] And I think when I'm faced with these kind of challenges, I go to anger.
[1:15] Which is something that I was quite ashamed of in those moments.
[1:19] Just being so angry to be put in that position, to feel like it was so unfair.
[1:24] It's a feeling every parent understands.
[1:27] It's the loneliest feeling in the world.
[1:28] And something we can all relate to.
[1:32] Friends of ours just had a baby and she's three weeks old.
[1:34] And so she could go and, you know, have time for herself.
[1:38] I was holding the baby and I held the baby for like 40 minutes.
[1:40] Hero.
[1:41] Yeah, well done, man.
[1:43] So I get it.
[1:52] Well, I'm very excited today because we are joined by someone whose content I have been consuming.
[1:58] It actually reminds me of when I first discovered Bluey, how much I watch Bluey.
[2:01] I've just been doing the same thing to Matt D'Avella, who is a YouTuber.
[2:05] And I have to say, I feel like I need to say straight after I said YouTuber, one of the good guys.
[2:10] He is one of the good guys.
[2:11] There's some baddies out there.
[2:12] There are some real baddies at the moment.
[2:15] And you're one of the real goodies.
[2:17] Matt D'Avella, how many YouTube followers now?
[2:19] Is it like 4 million?
[2:21] I passed 4 million last year.
[2:23] Yeah.
[2:23] Oh, goodness me.
[2:25] Yeah.
[2:25] Yeah.
[2:25] I would say from watching your stuff recently, I don't know.
[2:28] A lot of the time I'm on YouTube, vast majority when I finish, I feel a bit yuck and a bit like, oh, well, it was such a waste of time.
[2:34] What am I doing?
[2:36] I felt really good.
[2:36] I feel really good after I watch your stuff.
[2:38] I feel like it just feels like that was nice.
[2:41] Wholesome content.
[2:41] Yeah, just wholesome.
[2:42] Like a full meal.
[2:43] A full meal.
[2:44] I feel like it was good for my brain.
[2:45] Thanks.
[2:46] Whereas I feel like, and maybe that's because everyone else is like, just go smashing with dopamine at every opportunity.
[2:52] But yours is like...
[2:53] you get rewarded for watching it properly.
[2:56] So I thought AI was going to kill us last year.
[2:58] So now you're saying it's next year?
[3:00] When is AI going to kill us all?
[3:03] And not to get too far into the YouTube world, but I do think that there's a huge difference now and a huge opportunity for creators to focus on long-form
[3:12] where short form, it's easy to replace.
[3:15] Like AI is kind of like becoming harder to distinguish and understand in the short form.
[3:20] I just don't think that they can reproduce the same quality and the same connection in long form.
[3:25] And I do think that's where like, you watch a long form YouTube video and if it's meaningful and thoughtful, you can kind of pause.
[3:32] You're not going, oh, what's the next one?
[3:34] What's the next one?
[3:34] What's the next one?
[3:35] You can just be like, let me think about what I just watched.
[3:38] We are in the tea house, so we're here to draw a card.
[3:40] But there's a couple of things I want to ask you before we get to the card.
[3:44] So the other thing you're really well known for is minimalism.
[3:47] So in 2014, you directed a Netflix documentary on minimalism.
[3:52] So I'm interested to know about that, but I'm also interested to know about the series you did where you, for 30 days, you would try different, would you call them health trends or health fads?
[4:00] Yeah, like self-development trends.
[4:02] Yeah.
[4:03] So can we start there?
[4:04] So how many did you do in total?
[4:06] Do you know?
[4:07] I did.
[4:07] This was kind of at the peak of my YouTube channel and when it was really taking off, like it started with minimalism content and talking about simple living.
[4:15] And that was very popular back then still is.
[4:18] And then, yeah, I started making these self-development experiments where it was like, I think I started with cold showers for 30 days.
[4:25] And then I did, you know, quitting social media for 30 days and then meditating for 30 days.
[4:29] But I probably ended up doing about 14 or
[4:34] 15 of them in the initial sprint of making these videos.
[4:38] Okay.
[4:38] So just looking back on them, if you had to go back and choose three of them that you felt were really good for you, like you felt this is something that can really improve my life, could you pick three?
[4:53] Meditation, for sure.
[4:56] I say that even though I don't meditate.
[4:59] These days I don't have as much time to meditate.
[5:02] I will try to find these moments of silence in between the craziness of parenting and being a creator.
[5:08] Recently I did do power lifting, but I would say what's tied to that too is just like...
[5:13] an exercise habit.
[5:14] Uh, for me, lifting weights has, has really been one of those things that has, I've always come back to for me.
[5:20] That is actually quite a meditative practice.
[5:22] Sometimes I don't even listen to music at the gym.
[5:24] It's just a time where I can just be by myself, uh, and, and work out.
[5:28] And the third one, I don't know.
[5:32] Cause it's like, again, it's like,
[5:35] It's so funny looking back at all these experiments because it was like this was before I had kids.
[5:40] And I don't even think I could do these now with two kids.
[5:43] And I, you know, I actually I feel like a little bit cringe when I look back at it where I think I was just a little bit starry eyed.
[5:50] I had so much spare time.
[5:52] Like I could like even for some reason, cold showers, it's not adding much time to your day.
[5:57] You can just do it in the shower.
[5:58] But like just the mental load of thinking about handling enough stuff.
[6:01] I don't.
[6:02] Yeah.
[6:02] And like.
[6:03] Don't take away just one more thing, like one piece of joy that I have in the day.
[6:07] Like that, you know, 10 minute warm shower, hot shower is just like that to me.
[6:12] Don't take that away.
[6:14] And so I do think like we are also entering into a phase where I think people are noticing the over optimization and we're trying to do too much.
[6:22] And so it's like these days I'm just focusing on quality connection time with my family, lifting if I can.
[6:28] For longer than 30 days.
[6:29] 30 days of time.
[6:29] For longer than 30 days.
[6:32] I did do a video.
[6:32] I tried being a dad for 30 days when I first became a dad.
[6:35] Okay.
[6:35] Um, yeah.
[6:36] You had to continue.
[6:38] Yes.
[6:38] Yeah.
[6:38] Yeah.
[6:39] And, um, but, uh, yeah.
[6:41] And then, you know, just trying to find little pockets of time.
[6:44] Cause at the end of the day, like I'll be lucky to have 30 minutes to 45 minutes to myself, um, every day.
[6:49] And so,
[6:51] when you're looking at these 15 to 20 habit experiments I tried, there's no room for 99% of them.
[6:56] Yeah.
[6:58] And minimalism.
[6:58] So that's something that was, you said before, it's still very popular.
[7:02] Can you explain that to people who don't know what it is?
[7:05] Yeah.
[7:06] I think, you know, I learned about this idea of minimalism
[7:11] Back in 2010, I just graduated from university.
[7:15] I had $100,000 in student debt.
[7:17] What did you study, by the way?
[7:18] Broadcast and telecommunications.
[7:21] And so it was really about like, you know, sports broadcasting and news broadcasting.
[7:24] And then I just kind of branched off and started doing filmmaking on the side.
[7:28] I was in this place where I moved into my parents' basement.
[7:32] I was in all of this debt.
[7:35] I was trying to figure out my way.
[7:37] And I also felt this like deep desire and urge to prove to everybody that I was successful.
[7:44] Because I was like so buried in debt.
[7:47] I had this weight of $100,000 in student loans.
[7:49] I was living in my parents' basement where like the roof wasn't even complete.
[7:53] It was just like, and I was just surrounded by a bunch of crap, like a bunch of stuff that I had that I didn't really find meaning, a closet filled with clothes that I didn't use.
[8:01] And then it was, you know, I was just like online and came across a couple blogs that were talking about this thing called minimalism, which was the intentional pursuit of less.
[8:10] It was focusing on having less stuff, focusing on consuming less, being more intentional and trying to find meaning and purpose outside of all of the things.
[8:20] And that was like it was permission to.
[8:24] Stopped trying to prove to everybody and also stopped trying to prove to myself that I was successful.
[8:29] And if I was happy and if I was, you know, making work that I was proud of, if I was connecting with family and friends in a meaningful way, that was enough.
[8:36] And if I didn't achieve all the things I had hoped to, then that was okay.
[8:40] So I didn't feel like I had to get the house, get the car, get all the stuff to prove myself to anyone.
[8:46] Because minimalism kind of taught you that those things, you don't need those things.
[8:50] Yeah, you don't need those things.
[8:52] I saw all these examples of people who were living a life of intention, and I was like, let me try that.
[8:59] And so for me, it was like a one-day process.
[9:02] I didn't have that much stuff, but it was like just loading everything up into bags, donating what I had, throwing out the things that weren't salvageable, and then just committing to being a minimalist, which at the time was like this crazy idea.
[9:17] I remember feeling really embarrassed.
[9:19] Like-
[9:19] telling people it was like telling people you were a vegan not that that's embarrassing no but there was a time where where it was yeah where yeah it's like kind of like showy like oh cool you're a minimalist um and people yeah i don't know if um anybody actually cared but uh for me it was it was important to attach the label to myself because it made it real and it made me more intentional with every purchase and every decision i made from that moment on
[9:43] I remember when the minimalism thing kind of exploded in its own little way and I got really into it.
[9:49] I didn't really follow through with all the things, but I really loved the concept of minimalism because I was like, you know, I forget what the actual numbers were, but it was something like you should only have five tops, four bottoms.
[10:01] You know, you should have this like very minimal wardrobe.
[10:04] And I remember thinking, that's great.
[10:07] That's...
[10:07] Yes, let's get rid of all the shit I've got all this crap in my cupboard And then I would think about it And then I would go to the cupboard and be like Yeah, but I can't get rid of that
[10:19] You know what?
[10:19] Let's do 25 T-shirts, 15 pants.
[10:23] And it's just very hard to actually do it, even though I love the concept of it.
[10:29] Love the concept of it.
[10:30] But we're so conditioned to sort of want all this stuff and need all this stuff.
[10:34] It's a very hard thing to actually do it properly.
[10:38] Yeah.
[10:38] And unfortunately, it feels like it's gotten a whole lot harder.
[10:41] like it's so much easier to buy stuff now.
[10:43] And we're also being sold in more ways than we've ever been sold to before.
[10:48] And we're comparing ourselves to people more than we ever have.
[10:50] I mean, if you think about it, like 50 years ago, how many, like our parents, like how many homes would they see the inside of?
[10:57] And now you're seeing like 10,000 every week.
[10:59] You're seeing minimalist home tours.
[11:01] You're seeing like different people like show off their homes and show off the things that they have.
[11:05] And actually I do think that that's kind of
[11:08] area that the part that we missed with minimalism, I think initially was that it was like the aesthetic was too perfect.
[11:15] Yeah.
[11:15] It's like when you look at the minimalist aesthetic and it was about curating these perfect items.
[11:19] And I think that that actually did a little bit of a disservice.
[11:22] That's interesting.
[11:22] That's true.
[11:23] There was a little bit of a movement a couple of years ago.
[11:25] It wasn't huge, but it was called under consumption core.
[11:28] And it was more of like the Gen Z approach to minimalism.
[11:30] And like, I wish it got bigger than it did, but it was people showing off like their tattered office chairs showing off like their kettle that was just like scratched up and ding their water bottle that had like fallen off a cliff.
[11:42] And I think that.
[11:44] That to me is a more aspirational view of minimalism.
[11:46] We should be like using our things until they're unusable.
[11:50] That's a true sustainable practice rather than being like, I need this perfect kettle that matches my toaster and it matches my trash bin.
[11:57] That's true.
[11:58] When I think about minimalism in my mind, the videos I've seen, the people who I've seen like talking about minimalism.
[12:05] it's like kind of perfect Scandinavian level.
[12:08] It's a beautiful aesthetic, isn't it?
[12:09] Yeah, it's very calming and greys and blacks and whites and navies.
[12:14] And it's like, oh, God, that kind of feels like severance or something, but like in a kind of nice way.
[12:19] But, yeah, maybe that's the problem is it sort of seemed too unattainable.
[12:23] Yeah, too perfect.
[12:23] And then I think, because I had this experience too where I, like, you know, early on into minimalism, I had this, like, stag kettle, which is like that, like, beautiful black gooseneck kettle that you use for pour over coffee.
[12:34] But I got, like, a scratch on it.
[12:36] And then it revealed this, like, stainless steel.
[12:39] And then I'm like, it's like, it just felt like I felt like I, like, lost something.
[12:44] And I'm like.
[12:45] Actually being able to embrace the scratch and being able to embrace the imperfections of your things, I think, is a beautiful way to approach ownership of anything.
[12:53] And I think it helps us be more sustainable.
[12:57] Hi, it's Ryan from The Imperfects, and I'm reaching out to you now because we need your help, gosh darn it.
[13:04] Why do we need...
[13:05] Sorry, no, I'm just making a plea to the listeners and viewers to ask them to subscribe to the show in whichever way they see fit because it really helps.
[13:15] The more subscribers, the better we can make this show, am I right?
[13:18] Yeah, but I don't think we need to, I think we could just ask them politely.
[13:21] Yeah, but if I use the emotional music.
[13:23] I think the music's a bit much.
[13:24] Is it?
[13:25] Who's playing that music?
[13:26] Doesn't matter who's playing the music.
[13:27] The important thing is we're pulling at the heartstrings and asking them to do us a solid.
[13:32] Could we not just ask, like, just ask them straight?
[13:34] Like, it'd really help us if you guys subscribed because we would be able to make more of the show and make the show better.
[13:40] Oh, and not use emotional manipulation.
[13:42] Yeah.
[13:43] Yeah, I reckon.
[13:44] We can give it a go, but I doubt it'll work.
[13:46] I really think the less consumption is like, for me, from the whole minimalist thing, the most...
[13:53] Personally, the thing that I resonate with the most and think is the most important thing.
[13:56] I feel like I've had to come to terms with that by...
[13:59] kind of just feeling a bit poor over the last few years with like how expensive everything's gotten, having a mortgage, having two kids.
[14:06] I just haven't been able to buy things.
[14:08] And it's been a sort of painful journey to realise how much of a crutch purchasing things was.
[14:14] But I'm kind of happy with where I've gotten to with having a lot, buying a lot less sort of toys for myself is a really nice place to be.
[14:22] But on the scratch, on the kettle, so we have a cleaner that comes every couple of weeks.
[14:29] And that Monday is just, I love it because I come home and the house is like, it's like we don't have kids for an hour or so.
[14:37] Or an hour and then they get home from childhood school.
[14:39] You really hate those kids, don't you?
[14:42] And the place is trashed.
[14:43] But recently my wife went home to her family home in Bendigo for a couple of days and it happened to be on a cleaner day.
[14:52] And I got home and the house is perfect and it was just so cold and empty and I found it really sad.
[14:58] And then another day went by and I got home from work on the Tuesday and it was exactly the same.
[15:03] Nothing had changed.
[15:04] There was no mess.
[15:05] Yeah.
[15:05] And I found it really sad and I had a sort of realisation that I think the cost of entry for me to having a sort of fulfilling life at the moment is mess and is chaos and is this kind of like...
[15:19] It's sort of like a representation of like there's life in the house.
[15:23] Yeah.
[15:24] And without it, it's like we... Yeah, I mean, like my partner Jam, she went away last night and so it's now just me in the house for...
[15:32] It'll be for ages.
[15:33] Yeah.
[15:34] And, yeah, I hate being home alone.
[15:36] Like, sometimes I think, oh, that'll be so nice because I can, like, watch Terminator 2.
[15:45] So, you know, I can do whatever I want.
[15:48] But the reality is it's like there's just no life in the house.
[15:51] No, I think that's having kids definitely changed my perspective on minimalism because it was a lot easier to keep the house tidy but also to not have crayon all over your walls.
[16:04] And it's like there have been times spew all over you or all over your house.
[16:09] And it's like I think –
[16:12] even we would even let like so he like our son wants like just you know colored crayons all over the wall and like we just left it there for like months yeah like there was i didn't care i was like and also like part of it is just because you're so busy you're like i'm not gonna like i tried to clean it off it didn't come off and i'm like what i have to paint it like i don't know even know how to get this off yeah yeah and then i just didn't care and then i'm like all right and like you know back in the day it's like our fridge was just completely like pure and clean there was nothing on it and now it's just filled up with his artwork and photos and family uh family photos
[16:42] To me, that feels like a lot more whole.
[16:43] It feels great.
[16:44] Yeah, it feels amazing.
[16:45] And it's like, I think we tried too much to kind of like curate and create a perfect home.
[16:51] But it feels a lot better when there's a mess.
[16:53] Yeah.
[16:54] We have to get into the cards.
[16:55] So the cards, you draw three cards from the deck and...
[17:02] What are you doing?
[17:04] This is hilarious because for whatever reason, I usually explain it.
[17:08] And I found Hugh.
[17:10] Hugh's doing it.
[17:10] That's my line.
[17:11] And I was like, well, this will be interesting.
[17:14] It is very interesting.
[17:15] As I was talking, I was thinking, I've never said this before.
[17:17] I don't know if I'm saying the right thing.
[17:18] Yeah, another go.
[17:19] Yeah.
[17:20] So we have our cards.
[17:22] If you would like to pick one.
[17:25] I'll fill in the blanks for those who haven't heard before.
[17:31] So we have this deck of cards.
[17:33] It's a vulnerability house cards.
[17:36] And there are 52 cards in the deck.
[17:38] And on each card, there's a question which will hopefully invoke some sort of vulnerable memory or something from your life, Matt.
[17:46] So we just, if you just pick the top three cards, read them out.
[17:50] And if one of those questions does resonate with you and it triggers some sort of story or trauma, please, please share it with us.
[18:01] I'll dig deep into the trauma for this one.
[18:04] Do you feel like you add value to the world?
[18:06] Why or why not?
[18:08] Well, that's going to be a quick yes.
[18:10] Yeah.
[18:11] Next question.
[18:12] Have you ever felt disconnected from yourself?
[18:14] What happened?
[18:15] What helped you find your way back?
[18:18] Hmm.
[18:19] What do you spend too much time on trying to control?
[18:22] Which one should I pick?
[18:26] I feel like, I mean, speaking on your behalf, I feel like you've done so much self-reflection.
[18:30] I imagine you'd have an answer for all of those, but is anyone jumping out?
[18:34] Yeah, I think this one here.
[18:36] Have you ever felt disconnected from yourself?
[18:38] What helped you find your way back?
[18:40] For me, I immediately think about becoming a parent and becoming a father.
[18:48] It was, it's like you have to say the good parts first, right?
[18:52] Like you got to be like, parenting's amazing.
[18:54] It's beautiful.
[18:55] It's like, it's life changing.
[18:56] It was like, it was also just that first year was just like the hardest year of my life and my wife, Nat's life.
[19:04] We were just rocked, I think in ways that we never expected.
[19:07] Yeah.
[19:09] We from from just the very the very first day, our son was just had such trouble sleeping.
[19:18] And it was initially you're like, okay, is this this is this is just what happens is what everybody goes through.
[19:23] And then
[19:25] As we went on, we just realized that his sleep challenges were a bit more than maybe average.
[19:33] And so it was that was just like the beginning of this 10 month period where my wife and I just got no sleep day after day.
[19:44] We were split shifting every night.
[19:47] We were, there were nights, many, many nights where we had two hours of sleep and we just were broken.
[19:53] And I don't think in the moment, in that, throughout that, we just felt, oh, this is normal.
[19:58] Like people go through this, but it like, it truly consumed us and I think broke us down in a way that we weren't expecting.
[20:06] How are you guys together?
[20:08] Like, did it affect, like, your relationship at all or moods or anything like that?
[20:14] 100%.
[20:14] I mean, it's one of those things where then you start to realize how important sleep is.
[20:17] Yeah.
[20:17] And when you're not getting consistent sleep, how much it impacts...
[20:21] Your ability to show up for your partner, also your ability to show up for your child.
[20:25] And so you feel this like deep sense of sadness that you you just cannot be there emotionally.
[20:32] You just don't have the patience to be able to, I think, parent in a way that you would like.
[20:38] And then for me, there was one moment.
[20:41] in particular that stands out.
[20:43] I was, this was after like 10 months of sleep deprivation after Frankie was born.
[20:49] I was working on a YouTube video.
[20:51] I'm trying to balance, I'm trying to like keep my old life.
[20:53] I'm trying to make videos and I'm trying to go to the gym.
[20:55] I'm trying to do everything that I was doing before having kids.
[20:59] And I'm working on this video and the video is called, this is really embarrassing, but it was something like nine ways I found my motivation again.
[21:08] I think I was like trying to convince myself that I had like I was back and like I figured it out because we still in the mindset at that stage of like Wanting like success being an important part of your or you already kind of shed that no no I Wanted to be I like for me It wasn't really about success and showing people that I was successful or feeling successful It was about feeling like myself and feeling like I still had that part of me that was creative and
[21:35] and energetic and was excited about showing up and making stuff and i'm working on this video late at night i'm 95 of the way through finishing this video like the the way that i i usually make videos at least certain kind of videos is like i'll put together the entire script in the entire video and then because i don't love being on camera i kind of keep those parts for the very end so like all i had to do was just like do my on-camera parts
[22:01] Like, hey, everybody, this is how I got motivated.
[22:03] Like, you know, these are the nine ways I got motivated.
[22:05] And I was just looking at the timeline and I was like, I can't do it.
[22:09] I can't do it.
[22:11] I there's I can't do I cannot.
[22:13] I had 24 hours until this video was had to be done by the deadline.
[22:17] And I was like, I can't do it.
[22:18] I'm done.
[22:18] So you can't do it in the sense that you can't physically perform or you don't want to.
[22:23] I couldn't force myself.
[22:24] I couldn't be on camera.
[22:25] Yeah.
[22:25] I was like, I had no drive.
[22:27] I just did not care about this video.
[22:29] I felt fake and forced being like giving people advice on motivation when I felt the least motivated I've ever felt in my life.
[22:37] And so I at that moment, I I like reached out to the brand who like was tied to the video.
[22:43] There was a deadline for and I just told them, I was like, I can't I can't do this.
[22:47] I remember like.
[22:49] Immediately after that moment, I went to my wife and I was like, I'm just really struggling right now.
[22:58] And at the same exact time, we said something.
[23:02] She said something.
[23:03] I said something.
[23:03] It was different.
[23:04] She said, you need therapy.
[23:05] I said, I need medication.
[23:08] And I ended up getting both.
[23:10] But that was kind of the beginning for me of kind of me trying to find myself again and feel connected to myself again.
[23:19] After 10 months of it just sneaking up on me and losing myself in the process of becoming a parent.
[23:26] I mean, I imagine, and I only would assume this because of what we do and the podcast we do, but was there a part of you when that happened that thought, I should make a video out of this?
[23:39] It's good.
[23:40] I mean, it's funny because it is...
[23:42] there's a part of being a creator and, and, and especially when you start to reveal and share parts of yourself, you're like, well, that's good content.
[23:49] That's interesting.
[23:49] That's, that's something that's real.
[23:51] Well, especially when it's real.
[23:52] Yeah.
[23:52] Yeah.
[23:52] Yeah.
[23:53] I, I, I have a hard time and I've done that in the past.
[23:56] I've shared moments of vulnerability.
[23:58] I've shared, um, uh, I had generalized anxiety when my channel first started to build momentum and I started to get like millions of views on my videos.
[24:07] It just really put this immense amount of pressure on myself.
[24:09] I made a video about that.
[24:11] Um,
[24:12] I always felt like making those videos is just never felt natural and I never felt great about it.
[24:16] I loved hearing from people that like it was worth it for me to open up because then I could hear from people who were impacted by it and who who had helped.
[24:26] But I just always feel I think I felt uncomfortable.
[24:30] opening up and sharing that.
[24:32] When I was going through this phase, it was like there wasn't a part of me that wanted to share that with anybody because I just had no drive to turn on a camera, no drive.
[24:41] I just didn't want anything to do with it.
[24:42] I was like, I thought at that point, I thought I was gonna quit YouTube and I might never go back.
[24:47] And I did end up taking an eight month break from creating any videos.
[24:51] And that was the longest break I'd taken since I started in 2017.
[24:57] When you said before that you didn't know really, I think paraphrasing, you didn't really know who you were at this point.
[25:04] Then going and not making content, which was such a big part of you, did you feel more lost in that initially of like, who am I?
[25:11] Like, what have I become?
[25:13] I think so in the beginning.
[25:15] And I didn't know where to start.
[25:17] Like, I think for me, it was like.
[25:20] Obviously because the sleep deprivation had just like broken me down.
[25:25] But I also just genuinely had less time to invest in myself and my habits and healthy eating and going to the gym.
[25:33] And so I was in a fortunate position that I could take a break, that I could stop working.
[25:37] Like I couldn't imagine if I had to keep pushing through and keep working through that.
[25:41] Yeah.
[25:42] Which a lot of people have to do.
[25:43] So many people do.
[25:44] I have so much empathy for people who are in that position and they're like, I have to pay the bills.
[25:49] I can't take a break.
[25:52] And I think that's what having a village and a support system, that's why it's so important to be able to have people that you can lean on.
[25:57] But I was fortunate to be able to kind of take a step away.
[26:01] And I just – I didn't feel like myself for the longest time.
[26:03] It was like –
[26:05] months of just trying to figure out how do I like, how do I find it again?
[26:09] Part of it was like finding my healthy habits.
[26:11] The other part was finding that creative spark.
[26:13] For me, it started with, um, I told you, like I did a little bit of medication.
[26:17] I only did that for about a week and then I didn't like how I felt.
[26:19] So then I stopped.
[26:21] Um, therapy was, was really great.
[26:23] That was so helpful.
[26:28] It just gave me...
[26:29] I think at the time, I was relying too much on my wife, Nat, to be my therapist.
[26:34] And we were both struggling.
[26:35] We both needed therapy.
[26:36] We both needed mental health support.
[26:38] I was diagnosed with depression at that time.
[26:41] My wife was diagnosed with PTSD.
[26:42] It's like when you think about...
[26:46] the realities of what those wake-ups were like, it was, we would, you know, it progressively got worse and worse as our son got more associated with us attending to him for every wake.
[26:57] And so it went from him waking up five times a night to him waking up 15, 20 times a night.
[27:02] Which is basically every 30 minutes.
[27:04] You're just in there in the room with him.
[27:06] You're holding him mostly through the night.
[27:08] You're holding him for sometimes four hours.
[27:09] You're wide awake.
[27:10] You can't sleep.
[27:12] It's the loneliest feeling in the world.
[27:14] Yeah.
[27:14] It is.
[27:15] And I sometimes...
[27:18] This is like, I think this is a side, like I'm a bit of a perfectionist.
[27:22] And I think when I'm faced with these kind of challenges, I go to anger, which is something that I was quite ashamed of in those moments, just being so angry to be put in that position, to feel like it was so unfair that we were being put through this.
[27:40] It was very, very quick to spiral in the middle of the night.
[27:43] And yeah, to your point, it's just incredibly lonely.
[27:46] I...
[27:49] we, we, we got to the point where I was like, this is 20, 20 wake ups a night.
[27:53] And we just felt, I don't know.
[27:56] It's just in that process, you, you, you certainly kind of lose yourself.
[28:00] Um, I think for me coming out of it was the therapy helped me to like reflect on a lot of those feelings, the feelings of anger, um, why I, I jumped to that, what I can do when I feel anger, also just being accepting, um,
[28:19] the anger and not trying to hide from it.
[28:22] I think it's very easy to try to like bury these feelings down and actually shame yourself for feeling the sense of anger and just being like, this is okay.
[28:29] This is like, it's natural.
[28:31] It's, it's okay to feel this way.
[28:32] Like your beat, your body and your mind are just being pushed to the absolute limit.
[28:37] Do you, do you remember, or if you, if you mind sharing, uh, why you resorted to the anger?
[28:43] Uh,
[28:44] I don't know if I ever got to the bottom of like why the anger comes up.
[28:48] I think to me, I feel like, I mean, I know the anger came up because of the, the feelings of it.
[28:55] It felt feeling unfair, feeling like it was just robbing me of everything, of all the joy of my life.
[29:02] And like, again, I like, you have to say the good parts too.
[29:04] Like it was, it was also a magical time.
[29:07] Like being able, looking back at the photos of my son, Frankie, and, and, and there was like,
[29:12] I burst into tears the moment that I saw my son.
[29:15] It was just like, for me, I know not everybody has that instant connection, especially fathers.
[29:21] But I was fortunate that I just had that instant connection with my son and I just bawled.
[29:28] And then I think it just cracked me open and I was so much more emotionally open during that time.
[29:35] But with all these extra emotions, anger was a part of it as well.
[29:39] I mean, I don't know, like I really resonate.
[29:42] Like I don't have kids, but I would worry that if I did, I would have the exact same reaction to what you did.
[29:52] I don't, you know, to what degree, who knows.
[29:54] But I...
[29:56] I get really overwhelmed when things go wrong.
[30:01] And from what I can tell and from all the therapy that I've done, it's because growing up I didn't have much go wrong.
[30:08] So, like, my discomfort, my ability to kind of weather the discomfort or weather a storm is...
[30:14] is I've got a pretty low tolerance level because I wasn't hit with many big storms as a kid.
[30:21] And so since then, I've been able, luckily, to be able to control most of the things that I do in my life and been able to kind of like have a pretty good handle on everything.
[30:30] So if I was dealt something like that, which was completely out of my control, I can see myself really struggling.
[30:37] Yeah.
[30:38] Is it just like a rite of passage?
[30:39] It's just like as a parent, you just like...
[30:42] it's going to be a struggle or are there people out there?
[30:44] Like, cause sometimes you see people online and you're like, I don't think they're struggling.
[30:47] I think they're actually.
[30:48] So our former nanny has just had a baby in the last year and she's not struggling.
[30:53] She's fine.
[30:54] Baby sleeps nonstop.
[30:55] I think some people just get babies who sleep.
[30:57] We dropped a baby last night.
[30:58] They didn't even cry.
[30:59] So they come over last night and one of our kids dropped the baby.
[31:01] The baby's totally fine.
[31:02] She's like, that's fine.
[31:03] Don't worry about it.
[31:04] I'm like, what?
[31:04] Our child will have cried for four days.
[31:06] So yeah, I, I 100.
[31:08] So we've got three kids, nine, six and four.
[31:11] And,
[31:11] For whatever reason, all three of our kids were exactly the same as yours.
[31:17] In fact, my wife and I noted only in June of this year, so nine and a half years in, have we started getting proper sleep.
[31:24] Are you serious?
[31:25] Yeah.
[31:26] So I know exactly how you feel.
[31:28] And it has changed me so much that I'm still not nowhere near the person I used to be, as in not a negative, I'm just totally different.
[31:40] I know I've said this analogy before on the podcast, but I always feel like the scene from Gladiator where Russell Crowe is about to go out and fight in the final scene they're about to have their... Against the Emperor.
[31:54] Yeah, and the Emperor, he hugs him underneath.
[31:57] No one sees it.
[31:58] He hugs him underneath and he stabs him with a knife into the back and puts it deep into his back and then wraps him up with...
[32:04] bandaged so no one can see he's been stabbed in the back and he has to go and fight with one arm and he's been stabbed and he's just no one knows what he's dealing with no one knows why he's losing no one knows why he can't be himself that's what I every day I'd go into the world feeling like no one knows no one knows how depleted I am how much I'm struggling and I can't you can't just it's it's
[32:25] And so two weeks ago I did it.
[32:28] My job used to be I do so many talks all around the country and I haven't done it for a long time, mainly because I couldn't do it when I had no sleep.
[32:35] And I did one the other day.
[32:37] And this is after a couple of months of good sleep again.
[32:39] And I, I, the crowd were, they were fine, but there wasn't the warmest, most engaged crowd.
[32:45] And I was up there going, I used to, I would have been able to win them over so quickly and turn this into a really incredible energy.
[32:52] I was like, I can't do it anymore.
[32:53] I can't do this.
[32:54] I'm still too tired.
[32:55] I'm not myself.
[32:56] I'm not as confident as I used to be.
[32:57] And I noticed, I was on stage going, gosh, I am not who I used to be.
[33:01] I'm a totally different person now.
[33:04] And it's because of that sleep deprivation.
[33:06] That's what it is.
[33:07] Did you find that you were desperate for people to understand?
[33:12] Yeah.
[33:13] It was like that for the longest time, it was like that's all we talked about.
[33:17] And we talked we in every detail we shared with family and friends how hard it was and what we were going through.
[33:22] And they were all amazing and very like supportive and compassionate.
[33:25] But like until you talk to somebody who's actually been through it and been in the trenches, it's like you feel like you're not being heard.
[33:32] Yeah.
[33:33] And I just felt this desperate need for, we both, Nat and I both did, this desperate need for people to be like, to really, like almost to like feel it and to really understand the depths of how low you can get when you don't have sleep.
[33:44] It's really, I mean, it's impossible for me to properly know what it's like, obviously.
[33:49] It's a real, so like, because when parents tell me kids aren't sleeping, I haven't slept in days, I'm like, oh no.
[33:59] But I don't really know what that means.
[34:02] Like, I can't possibly understand.
[34:05] It's kind of bizarre, though, too, because you like what's crazy to me is that like if I had one of these nights before kids like you just rewind five years ago.
[34:15] If I had one night like this, I would take a week off.
[34:17] Yeah, I would tell everyone about it.
[34:19] I would tell everybody about it.
[34:20] But like now it's just regular.
[34:21] Like the other night I had just a random two hour night where I only got two hours of sleep.
[34:27] And I was like, I guess that's what happened.
[34:29] You got to get up.
[34:29] You got to get the kids ready.
[34:30] You got to go to work and you got to continue on with life.
[34:34] And I think you build a little bit of resilience.
[34:36] But also I think it's just like your body is just like – It's dying.
[34:41] It's dying inside, but you just are somehow moving.
[34:44] You're somehow showing up.
[34:46] It's a particular – 2023, this particular night where –
[34:50] The next day I had a very important speaking.
[34:54] I was launching the Queensland State of Origin pre-season camp.
[34:57] I was like the opening address.
[34:59] I never met the players before and it meant a lot to me and I knew it was a really big deal.
[35:04] And I had prepared the talk and everything and I had to fly up the morning.
[35:07] So my flight was 6am flying to Brisbane, going straight to the hotel.
[35:09] They're staying up to do the talk.
[35:12] and I thought we just had a really bad night and I was I remember being with my son from about I was just falling asleep at about my alarm was going up at 4 o'clock I was falling asleep at 9 30 and my son woke up and he had a was a lot going on and I remember lying in bed with him until he didn't go back to sleep till 4
[35:34] And I was lying there with him and I was in tears.
[35:38] The clutch got to four o'clock the morning.
[35:40] I just started crying because this is fucked.
[35:43] I may not sleep here.
[35:44] And then sure enough, he finally fell asleep.
[35:46] And I remember 10 minutes after he fell asleep, my alarm went off and I hadn't slept.
[35:50] And I was going to the airport and I literally hadn't slept.
[35:55] My hands were shaking.
[35:56] Yeah.
[35:56] And I remember I was going to call Josh.
[35:58] I was like, I need to tell my brother what's happening.
[36:00] I had to talk about this because this is, I thought, I can't call him.
[36:02] It's four in the morning.
[36:03] So I was meant to send you, I don't remember this, I was meant to send you a voice note.
[36:05] This is ringing down.
[36:07] And I pressed the button to send the voice note and I tried to say it and I started crying.
[36:10] And I just cried for like a minute.
[36:13] And then I was like, I can't send him this.
[36:15] And I just like took my thumb off it and sent it to him.
[36:18] And I was in such a rush to get the plane then.
[36:21] I just didn't have time to like follow up and say, hey, just so no, like I'm not dying or anything.
[36:25] I'm just like, and then I got on the plane and then there was no Wi-Fi and I went, oh, I can't tell him.
[36:30] So I arrived in Brisbane at 9 o'clock in the morning.
[36:33] In the morning, Josh just got this voice at 4 o'clock in the morning and made me cry for a minute at all.
[36:38] No words, just made me cry.
[36:40] And then I remember saying... All Josh asked was how's the Resilience Project going on.
[36:46] And I had to go and stand in front of those people.
[36:48] And it's such an important thing.
[36:49] I was like, I'm at about 1% of my... You told them?
[36:53] No, you.
[36:53] Did you tell the crowd?
[36:54] Halfway through because I just was trying to push through and then I was like, I can't.
[36:58] So I just told them what happened.
[36:59] And I think I was quite teary because I was quite worried about my son as well.
[37:02] And I just...
[37:03] Yeah.
[37:04] And it was the only thing that sad me was telling us, sharing what I was going through, like you said before, but it was just, it was just a thing of like, this is not fair.
[37:10] This is so unfair.
[37:11] I think though, like some things just suck in life.
[37:14] Like there's sometimes there's no silver lining.
[37:16] I think when I look back at it, like just hearing you, you share that I got quite emotional just about how hard it was for you.
[37:21] It brings me back to where I was, but it also like, I just, I understand how hard it is.
[37:23] And I don't want anybody to feel like, I don't want anybody to feel like, I don't want anybody to feel like, I don't want anybody to feel like, I don't want anybody to feel like, I don't want anybody to feel like, I don't want anybody to feel like, I don't want anybody to feel like, I don't want anybody to feel like, I don't want anybody to feel like, I don't want
[37:32] that way.
[37:32] And I just think that maybe before having kids and before having this experience, I didn't have that level of empathy where I was, I really, I mean, I think that's just one of the things that, that helped me, I think, be a, maybe a better person is just being able to better understand, empathize with people who go through struggles, whether it's like challenges with pregnancy or it's, um, yeah, sleep, or there's just so many other challenges as well that people
[38:03] you know, for women, whether it's breastfeeding challenges or it's reflux, there's just, you hear from so many people who've had so many different challenges than, than you've had.
[38:12] And you don't realize all the things that you can be grateful for.
[38:15] I guess that's why parents like often attracted to each other in terms of hanging out together.
[38:19] Cause you want to like share your thing.
[38:21] War stories.
[38:22] Yeah.
[38:22] The war stories.
[38:23] Because like as an, as a non-parent,
[38:26] Even though there's no, it's not like I don't believe parents either way, but like, it's a really hard thing to get your head around, which is like, this is, I'm really, really struggling, but it's also the most amazing thing ever.
[38:37] Yeah.
[38:37] So it's like, which one, what do you mean?
[38:40] How is it possible to be both?
[38:42] Yeah.
[38:43] It's really, I guess, impossible to understand until you're in it.
[38:46] Yeah.
[38:47] Yeah.
[38:47] I want to say one thing that I think is important because, you know, when you talk about building a village, I think these days you kind of have to pay for it.
[38:58] If you can't, like if you don't have the people around you.
[39:00] And so sometimes you do have to like pay for whether it's daycare or it's a nanny support for us going into having our second kid.
[39:10] We decided to get a night nanny.
[39:13] And that was just like a game changer.
[39:16] Like I look back and I'm like, I wish we did that with our first.
[39:20] Because even one night, out of that 10-month period, if we had one night of full sleep, it would have changed my life.
[39:26] And I'm like, I think that, so if, for whatever reason though, we just felt like we had to do it ourselves and do it alone.
[39:31] Were you feeling like a failure with your first child during that?
[39:35] I would say, did we feel like a failure?
[39:37] Yeah.
[39:37] Yeah.
[39:38] Yeah.
[39:38] Like the whole time you're like, I'm obviously doing something wrong.
[39:41] There's something that, that we're getting, you're just compulsively tracking their sleep and figure like their nap schedule.
[39:47] Like this must be something that I'm doing because everybody else seems to be having like babies that sleep through the night or at least sleep in two hour trunks.
[39:55] But yeah, that feeling of putting your baby to sleep.
[39:58] It's like they're sleeping your arms and then you slowly lower them down.
[40:02] You put them in the bed.
[40:03] You're just quietly pulling your hands away.
[40:06] You're creeping out.
[40:07] But then because you've done this so many times, you know that it's gonna be 15 minutes or 20 minutes.
[40:13] It's just like you lie down and you're just about to fall asleep and then they start crying and you're like, okay, here we go.
[40:19] And I think that feeling to me is one of the hardest things when you're like,
[40:23] so deprived for sleep and you're just about to fall asleep and then you're just thrown back into it.
[40:27] Yeah.
[40:28] And it's almost like the definition of anxiety of this lack, anticipating what's going to come all the time, anticipating how it's going to go wrong at every, that's it.
[40:37] At every step.
[40:38] Is there, was there an element for you, Matt, where the, and I,
[40:41] I don't know if you, like as a performer and as a creator and someone who's just making stuff and particularly online, you're getting feedback.
[40:48] You're getting often, you know, really positive feedback and you sort of measure the success of video maybe based on how many views it got or how many comments or likes, whatever.
[40:58] Was it at all hard, and maybe I'm just projecting a future me potentially, was it at all hard to not be getting constant praise for parenting?
[41:08] um you mean online no just just in general from your child because like i like i often wish i got a bit more praise from my baby pat on the back well because like the other day i was like my friends of ours just had a baby and she's three weeks old and i and i and so she could go and you know have time for herself i was holding the baby and i held the baby for like 40 minutes and hero yeah well done man
[41:35] But genuinely.
[41:36] Stop the other side.
[41:38] So I get it.
[41:41] But at the end of, you know, when I had to hand it back to the mum, I realised that I'd been like flexing, unintentionally flexing my arm and I was so, my arm was so sore.
[41:55] And I said, oh, gee, like my arm was so sore and no one gave a shit.
[42:00] But my arm is so sore.
[42:04] And there was no, like, thank you so much for holding the baby while I was able to.
[42:09] Not that I expected it, but it's just a weird experience to think of.
[42:15] I just wonder, considering, like, I don't know if we're similar at all like that, but did you, did you, going through this really hard thing, was it weird to, no, no one's going, hey, Matt, you are killing it right now.
[42:29] You know what's, it's funny is that just recently, what's, what's amazing about technology now is that you can kind of go back and look at a snapshot of who you were and what was happening through text messages and emails and photos and,
[42:42] And recently my wife went back and she's like, I just want to like look at a snapshot of our text messages and conversation of like, what were we saying?
[42:50] And how are we communicating with each other back then?
[42:53] And it brought me to tears.
[42:54] It was like seeing the level of love and compassion that we gave towards each other was it was it was like I.
[43:08] it made me realize that like we weren't alone, you know, during that, that period that we had each other.
[43:13] And, um,
[43:16] It was still really hard, but it was just like, we do these like handoff notes in the middle of the night when our shift was over.
[43:22] And it was just like, we were shift workers passing in the middle of the night.
[43:25] But then we would be like, yeah, nappy change at this time, you know, vomit on me, like a little bit of reflux.
[43:32] You know, I love you so much.
[43:33] Thank you so much for everything, love heart.
[43:35] And it was just seeing us give each other so much grace and compassion during like the hardest point of our life.
[43:43] That is awesome.
[43:43] Was amazing.
[43:44] Yeah.
[43:45] And it was just like, I think when you're in the trenches, you have like having somebody there, not having to do it alone, I think change us.
[43:56] Like, and also now looking back, we both have been through that experience together.
[43:59] We both like, nobody knows what we've gone through, but each other.
[44:03] And I think while having a relationship with kids is much more challenging, you don't have as much time.
[44:09] I think it made our relationship so much stronger.
[44:13] That's so good.
[44:14] That's incredible.
[44:14] I mean, it just can you imagine doing that?
[44:18] as a single parent, can you imagine not having the person to do it?
[44:24] Like, I just can't.
[44:26] I mean, I've never done it and I can't imagine it.
[44:27] You've got a sore arm.
[44:29] That's true.
[44:30] That's true.
[44:30] I did single parent for 40 minutes.
[44:31] Is your arm okay now?
[44:33] It's just healing.
[44:34] Thank you, Josh.
[44:34] Yeah.
[44:35] No, that's really kind of you to ask.
[44:36] Yeah.
[44:37] But seriously, like that is really wild that like people are doing that on their own.
[44:40] Yeah.
[44:41] Yeah.
[44:41] Hmm.
[44:42] I've often thought that, um, the, the hard stuff as a parent would be really hard on your own, but I think what would be harder is not being able to share the good stuff.
[44:51] Like have no one else that understands what they just did.
[44:55] Like if it's, if it's sleeping through for an hour, like to have no one with you to be like, this is the best moment of a year.
[45:03] Well, I think that would be the hardest part to not share the good stuff.
[45:06] Yeah, it's like, it feels like your heart's going to explode sometimes just because like the amount of love and like, it's just as I've seen, you know, our two sons get older and develop and like, you know, our oldest is now three years old.
[45:19] It's just like that level of connection and playfulness and silliness.
[45:22] And it's just like.
[45:24] we have like such amazing moments together and being able to share that as a family and see like our family dynamics start to be formed as these kids get older has just been that's been the best part and now we can enjoy it because now now we're sleeping like our second actually sleeps like knock on wood i mean that's he still has like these days where he wakes up at like 4 a.m but he'll sleep for like eight hour chunks easy you've done you you've done your hard yards yeah
[45:49] You mentioned earlier that you were diagnosed with depression.
[45:54] About a year and a half ago, I started seeing a psychologist and she told me that, I think you have depression.
[46:02] And it was the first...
[46:04] I've been in some dark places in my life and that's the first time anyone had ever said that to me.
[46:08] And I got really scared and terrified.
[46:13] And it was a really...
[46:16] I would have thought it would have been a relief, but I was terrified when it happened.
[46:19] And it took me quite a while to come to terms with that.
[46:22] I wanted to know what it felt like for you when you were told, when you heard the words and when you were actually diagnosed that this is what you've got.
[46:30] This is where you are.
[46:30] I don't think I was surprised.
[46:33] Yeah.
[46:34] It was a label that I was really, I didn't want to attach to myself.
[46:39] I remember, you know, they have these like quizzes online, these like little questionnaires.
[46:44] Are you depressed?
[46:45] Do you have ADHD?
[46:46] And I, um, I filled out one of those depression quizzes.
[46:49] It was like 20 questions.
[46:51] And it was really, it was really bad.
[46:53] It was, it was, and like, while it probably, maybe it wasn't scientific or, um, it was, everything was, it was like, have you had any joyful moments in the past week?
[47:04] No.
[47:05] You know, have you, do you often have feelings of anger or resentment during that?
[47:09] Yes.
[47:09] It was like every single one, it was clear that I was going through something serious.
[47:14] And, um.
[47:16] And it was I had gone to the doctor because I wanted to get medicated because I felt because at the time I felt like the only way I'm going to be able to show up and continue to work is if I medicate.
[47:28] And that was my first like that was my first thing.
[47:31] I got to push through this.
[47:32] I got to keep working on Medicaid so I don't have to change my life and I don't have to like do the real work.
[47:37] Yeah.
[47:37] It's like it's like strap up my leg so I can keep playing the game.
[47:40] That's right.
[47:40] Yeah.
[47:41] Just keep going.
[47:41] And I can't change my life.
[47:43] The thing that's causing this is always going to be there.
[47:47] And I think obviously medication helps a lot of people.
[47:50] I think for me, what needed to change was just everything else in my life and then figuring out how to build a life that was compatible with having children.
[48:00] But going to the doctors, getting that diagnosis, I think helped me just accept that.
[48:07] that this is what I'm going through.
[48:11] This is pretty heavy.
[48:12] Yeah.
[48:13] And I do need help and I need support and I need therapy and I need some space to be able to feel this and move through it.
[48:22] And fortunately for me, the depression was linked to the circumstances and what I was going through.
[48:29] And it was around that time that our son started sleeping again.
[48:32] We, you know, we tried every sleep thing, every sleep training we did.
[48:38] We initially did the cry it out and then that didn't quite work and it was really hard.
[48:42] And then we did the gentle sleep and that's when things got progressively worse.
[48:47] And then we tried Ferber again just because we were like, maybe he's ready for it now.
[48:51] Sorry, Ferber, Ferber method.
[48:54] Have you heard of it?
[48:55] Probably.
[48:55] Yeah.
[48:57] Ferber, his book is something like Solve Your Child's Sleep.
[49:02] I've never heard of it.
[49:03] Oh, you haven't?
[49:03] Okay.
[49:04] So it's quite a popular method of sleep training, of essentially progressive waiting.
[49:11] So the first night you might check on them every two, three, five minutes.
[49:16] The next night you do three, five, seven.
[49:18] And then each night you progressively go up until you have 20 minutes in between each wake.
[49:22] And so the and these days it's like a little bit controversial, even at Tresillian, which is an amazing, amazing organization in Australia where you can like bring your baby and they help you work through sleep challenges because it's controversial, because there's an element of crying.
[49:38] They don't recommend it in the Tresillian system.
[49:42] But there's a lot of science to back that it doesn't do any harm to your child and can can work.
[49:47] Yeah.
[49:49] And for us, we did the first night, a lot of crying.
[49:53] Also, there was a lot of crying before.
[49:55] Like me and the kids, it was like all of us were crying through the night.
[49:58] So it's a Tresillium thing, you bring your child in and they kind of have a look under the hood.
[50:05] it's just making this weird noise it's actually yeah tracillian is an amazing organization that is they don't have anything like it as far as i know in america um but if you're having feeding issues with your child or if you're having um sleep issues you can bring them there they've got a little buzzer kind of like in a hospital where you can buzz it and then somebody will come in like a midwife or whoever will come in to to help you and to give you advice on how to
[50:34] That was our breaking point, to be fair, because we had gone through this whole thing.
[50:37] And they like the advice they were giving us was everything that we were already doing.
[50:41] And so we're like, yeah, we're like we're doing this kind of gentle approach when they're crying.
[50:45] We're going to them immediately, going to Frankie.
[50:48] And then we were like, the only way we're going to get through this, I think, is if we try some form of sleep training.
[50:53] So we did Ferber and it was two nights.
[50:56] It was the first night he cried for like, I think, an hour.
[50:59] And it was like it was it was quite sad.
[51:01] Like he fell asleep standing up.
[51:03] which was like really quite hard to see as a parent.
[51:06] And then I walked in and I like lied him down and he slept through the entire night.
[51:10] That was the first time he ever slept through the entire night.
[51:12] It was just like, we were like, Holy cow.
[51:14] It was like that one hour of crying was so hard as a parent.
[51:19] I remember just put it, pulling my shirt over my head and just like, and like, I didn't want to put earphones in or plugs in.
[51:25] I wanted to hear it all.
[51:26] Like I wanted to be there for him.
[51:27] If he's going through it, I felt like I needed to be, go through it with him.
[51:30] Um,
[51:31] Um, and so that was night one night two.
[51:36] I lowered the bed and he fell asleep sitting up and, um, I lied him back down and then that was it.
[51:42] And then from that moment on, he slept through the night.
[51:44] He was asleep 12 hours straight.
[51:45] It, it, like, I, like I was, I was thinking about naming our second kid Ferber.
[51:51] Not very Italian, but, um, it like, I understand that people like don't want to sleep train their children or, or, or follow this method, but for us, and it didn't work the first time we tried it, it completely changed our life.
[52:05] We, we, we were able to start sleeping again.
[52:08] Um, we were able to show up and be more compassionate and have more energy.
[52:13] He started sleeping better.
[52:14] He wasn't waking up every hour like he is mood and energy change, like the bags under his eyes, like a one year old had bags under his eyes, like they went away.
[52:23] And so that was that was completely life changing for us.
[52:28] And so, yeah, again, I know like you go on Instagram and people think it's like the worst thing in the world, but it worked for us.
[52:36] We, yeah, we ended up at slip school with our first.
[52:40] He just wasn't sleeping.
[52:41] With us, same time we were there.
[52:43] Yeah, yeah, that's right.
[52:43] Oh, really?
[52:44] Yeah, exactly.
[52:45] And we ended up at this place.
[52:46] Masada.
[52:47] Masada?
[52:48] Yeah.
[52:49] Yeah, Masada.
[52:51] And I found, I think it speaks to how important it was for us, but like...
[52:57] Leading up to that moment where things were really bad and he was kind of waking up, it was weeks and weeks and weeks of him waking up sort of 10 times a night and just like exactly what you've been talking about, like just basically both of us not sleeping.
[53:11] And we got to a point where we were both so low.
[53:13] And I remember this moment in the middle of the night where I was trying to comfort him.
[53:17] and I was holding him and my wife was there too.
[53:21] And I think similar to you, anger, I'm very ashamed to admit it, but anger comes to me when things aren't working and I just couldn't handle it anymore and I just left him on the bed and stormed out in anger, leaving my wife alone.
[53:37] almost blaming him for everything.
[53:39] Like this, the anger that was inside me, I was so ashamed of.
[53:44] I couldn't believe I was taking the anger out on a three-month-old baby who is just like the most important thing at that point in my life.
[53:54] Now I have two children, but at that point in my life I only had him and he was the most important thing in my world and the most precious thing.
[54:00] I had the same experience as you and that I was lucky enough as a dad that the moment I saw him I was just like,
[54:06] everything changed.
[54:07] I just had this connection from day dot.
[54:09] Yet I was taking it out on the most beautiful thing in the world.
[54:14] I guess I just bring this up to say that this is what sleep deprivation does to you.
[54:18] It turns you into a person that you're not, I think, or for me anyway.
[54:22] It turned me into... And so we were desperate and we went to sleep school and it changed everything.
[54:27] And it was so much harder for my wife because she was the one in there at this place.
[54:32] The mum stays with the baby.
[54:35] There's no space for the father to stay there.
[54:36] So I left and went home and got sleep.
[54:40] But it allowed us to become the compassionate, caring, loving...
[54:45] parents that he deserved rather than this person that I was turning into.
[54:51] Yeah.
[54:51] I don't know if people realize that, like just how much sleep deprivation would change you.
[54:57] And it's like easy to say like, Oh, I would never do that in that situation.
[55:01] Yeah.
[55:01] But it's like, until you've actually been through it and you've been there, would you realize that you actually, you can.
[55:07] It also made me actually wonder if, if you could speak to this because I, I,
[55:14] My wife reacted so much better to so many things than I did during that time, the challenges and the stress.
[55:21] And I wondered if you learnt anything from Nat during that time and what you think about when you think about her and her ability to go through this.
[55:33] Nah.
[55:36] She was alright.
[55:37] She was alright.
[55:39] It is amazing.
[55:40] I mean, as hard as it was for me, it's like when I look at my wife and the extra burden that she had to carry as well and the challenges of breastfeeding.
[55:50] We were doing triple feeding.
[55:52] I don't know if you've ever heard of triple feeding.
[55:54] What?
[55:55] I thought there were two breasts.
[55:56] Yeah.
[55:58] I guess everyone's different.
[56:00] I don't know if you watch Ali Abdaal, it's a productivity hack.
[56:04] A real deep cut for YouTube.
[56:07] Love you, Ollie.
[56:09] But yeah, no, essentially our baby, Frankie, early on was losing a whole lot of weight.
[56:15] And so over the course of the, they actually kept us in the hospital for a week because he was losing weight every day.
[56:22] And they, he had to get up to a certain point before they would feel comfortable letting us go.
[56:27] And it was because the breastfeeding was such an uphill battle and it was it was just there wasn't enough supply coming in.
[56:32] And so then what they had us do was for every feed, we would start with the breast.
[56:38] Then we would do express bottle, which is like, you know, pumped bottle milk.
[56:42] So that's trying to feed them through the bottle if they can't take it through the breast.
[56:45] And then it was giving them formula on top of that.
[56:47] And so then it was like these three forms of feeding and by the time you get through all this and clean the bottles and sterilize and do everything you have a 45 minute break in between like each each feeding session.
[56:58] We got to do it again before you do it again 24 7.
[57:01] This is all that like this is like and this is like this is our entry into parenting is that for the first couple months it was like we were doing double and triple feeding.
[57:07] Eventually we were able to cut out the formula, but you were still doing the express breast milk.
[57:10] And it was just like this relentless nonstop.
[57:13] And like we were both there for it.
[57:14] But obviously with Nat, it was like she was for her.
[57:16] It was like physically draining on her body.
[57:18] She had a C-section as well.
[57:19] It's like she was physically recovering from this.
[57:23] Not to mention the kind of societal pressure that like the things of like, oh, you should be breastfeeding or like this pressure.
[57:30] I think that.
[57:31] I don't think I'll ever understand the expectation pressure on moms as opposed to dads.
[57:36] There's certainly a level of pressure on dads too, but it's a different level.
[57:39] Sometimes they say it's like, oh, women's hormones, they deal with the sleep deprivation a little bit better, I've heard.
[57:44] I don't think that's true.
[57:45] I think it's brutal on everybody.
[57:48] And I learned a lot from Nat in that period, and I think it was...
[57:54] Yeah, it was it was, I think, more about trying to, like, make her proud and trying to trying to help her in the ways that I could and seeing that she was struggling.
[58:04] And I think that's what we both tried to do at times, which was like sacrifice.
[58:09] Ourselves and at times I think we would rush in to try to help each other to Too soon where we were just like so desperate to try to help each other to try to like see each other again That it was like we were we were just burning ourself to the ground But yeah, it was
[58:26] It's one time.
[58:29] When you're in the – and this is maybe a bit of an ignorant – well, probably is a really ignorant question from a person who's never had a kid, but just like you guys talking about how it's so dark and you become this different person and you kind of – whether it's anger or whatever and you kind of behave in a way that is just like not you because you're so broken –
[58:51] I guess what I'm trying to ask, is there ever any moments of regret, like wanting your old life back?
[58:57] Oh, yeah.
[58:58] All the time.
[58:58] Yeah.
[59:00] The whole time.
[59:01] No, it's like there is, there's like a lot of regret.
[59:04] I think there's actually a whole subreddit dedicated to regretful parents.
[59:09] I don't know if you've heard about it.
[59:10] Oh, I've read it.
[59:11] Yeah.
[59:11] It's quite, it's quite sad.
[59:14] I read it when I was like going through this because I like wanted to hear from other people like.
[59:18] And it's it feels actually like a different life because I don't regret being a parent now.
[59:22] It's like the best thing ever.
[59:23] And it just it's this like my life used to revolve around my work.
[59:28] And now my life revolves around family.
[59:29] And I wouldn't want to have it any other way.
[59:31] Like I just I family comes first.
[59:33] I fit them in.
[59:34] And then it's like, OK, if I have five hours to work today, OK, I got five hours.
[59:37] If the kids are sick.
[59:38] work goes out the window and I'm there home with the kids.
[59:42] But there was this, there's a subreddit, I think it's called Regretful Parents, and just reading through it and just feeling heard and seen.
[59:50] And it's saying the things that you could probably never say to your family or friends that you regret being a parent, that you regret making this decision, that you want your old life back.
[1:00:00] And fortunately for me, that was just like,
[1:00:03] That was just a period of time.
[1:00:06] I could definitely see there's people that actually they hold on to their regret their whole life.
[1:00:10] Maybe if they're not able to get the help or sometimes people rush into having kids and they're maybe not ready for it at that stage of their life.
[1:00:18] Or it happens with the wrong partner.
[1:00:22] You've described, I feel so, I feel like it needs to be mentioned of like how special your connection with your wife is.
[1:00:29] And I think you and I are both lucky as well, but that some people out there, they don't have a partner that's supportive or looking out for them.
[1:00:38] They're looking for the out.
[1:00:39] And like, I just want to acknowledge those people that it must be so hard for you right now if you're in that position and you're dealing with sleep deprivation.
[1:00:46] Either you're doing it alone, as mentioned earlier, or you're doing it with someone that is not with you and you're not a team.
[1:00:53] It must be so hard.
[1:00:54] Yeah.
[1:00:55] Yeah.
[1:00:56] We had an incredible psychiatrist on called Edna Lacabe and she talked about her episode was about matrescence, which is this concept of how the brain changes for a mother when they have a child and that you can actually track physiological changes and you literally become a new person now.
[1:01:14] And there is a version of that patrescence for men, which I've certainly, I've experienced.
[1:01:21] And I have found it, and I think it's a real, I found it a really challenging thing.
[1:01:27] And I don't think I've really spoken about this before, but because it's still formulating in my mind, but I found it to, I'm loving the person I've turned into this new version of myself.
[1:01:40] But I also think I'm really lonely.
[1:01:42] Yeah.
[1:01:43] Um, and I think I'm really lonely because I don't, because I have all these connections and people who know me as the person before when I was a dad.
[1:01:53] And I don't know how to show up now as this new version of myself to everyone.
[1:01:58] And I'm wondering if you've found the change of being, becoming the new you at all lonely.
[1:02:04] I don't know if I've felt the loneliness.
[1:02:05] Um.
[1:02:08] The one thing that I have felt is this like desperate need to hold on to my identity and to hold on to the person that I was before.
[1:02:16] Like I did not want to change.
[1:02:19] And I think because I think before you have kids.
[1:02:22] It's like going into it.
[1:02:24] It's a little bit of rose colored glasses.
[1:02:25] You're like, I'm not going to give up, you know, X, Y, Z.
[1:02:28] It's like, and you would say certain things like, you just got to go out at night.
[1:02:32] You just got to go on holiday with the kids.
[1:02:34] Like you need to do these things.
[1:02:35] You got to live your life.
[1:02:36] You can't sacrifice it.
[1:02:38] And then you realize that like, oh, if we go out with the kids and we screw up their sleep schedule, that's the next week that we don't get to sleep.
[1:02:44] Yeah.
[1:02:44] And so it was a huge adjustment just trying to like.
[1:02:48] you know, making these sacrifices.
[1:02:50] The one thing that I did during this time, which I would not recommend, is I trained to become a powerlifter for 100 days.
[1:02:56] And I, this was like a video that I was making and I hired Sebastian Orb, who is one of the best strength coaches in the world.
[1:03:05] He trains Thor Bjornsson, who's the world's strongest man and has the world record for deadlift.
[1:03:09] Very intense guy, amazing, lovely guy.
[1:03:12] And I basically like got a little consult from him and he's like, hey, if you want, I could train you for the whole 100 days.
[1:03:17] And I was like-
[1:03:18] Well, yeah, let's do it.
[1:03:20] But like protocol, very intense.
[1:03:22] It's like four days a week, two to three hour sessions every day.
[1:03:26] Jeez.
[1:03:27] So your arm wasn't hurting when you held the baby?
[1:03:30] Yeah, luckily there's no bicep.
[1:03:32] So powerlifting, it's a deadlift, it's a squat, and it's a bench press.
[1:03:36] So the bicep's not as activated.
[1:03:39] But looking back, I'm like, that was through the period of sleep deprivation.
[1:03:44] I was getting two hours of sleep some nights, and I would just show up, and I'd be lifting the most weights I've ever lifted before.
[1:03:49] It was just so ironic that...
[1:03:52] at the time that I was getting my strongest physically, I was becoming my weakest mentally and emotionally.
[1:03:59] And, um, I pushed through and, you know, I remember actually getting closer.
[1:04:04] Essentially it was like day one, my first day powerlifting day 100 performing in a powerlifting competition where I'm competing against other people who are like amateurs, but like trying to become professional powerlifters.
[1:04:15] And, um, it was like a whole thing.
[1:04:16] There's like an audience and a stage and you're like lifting in front of everybody.
[1:04:20] And I got, um, um,
[1:04:21] My wife did.
[1:04:22] She took the full night one night and let me sleep in so I could actually show up and lift weights and perform.
[1:04:30] But I remember just finishing that being like, what was I...
[1:04:34] Why did I and I see this with my friends too who have kids where it's like you're just doing whatever you can to hold on to a piece of yourself And for me that was like it was the mix of being a creator and and being able to like push myself and challenge myself and And lift weights and it was something that would have been Relatively easy before I had kids, but now I was like, okay.
[1:04:55] I actually need to slow down.
[1:04:56] I need to
[1:04:58] I can't be making as many videos.
[1:05:00] I can't be trying to make as much social content.
[1:05:03] I can't spend as much time on my work as I once wanted to.
[1:05:06] I need to have a slower, more balanced life as a creator.
[1:05:10] So then I can actually enjoy the moments with my family.
[1:05:13] And also give myself a little bit of grace if I haven't had enough sleep the night before.
[1:05:18] And so to round this out, would you say that you have reconnected with your old self or you've discovered a new version of yourself?
[1:05:25] I've discovered a new version of myself.
[1:05:27] So, you know, to go back to like that, that initial moment, right.
[1:05:30] Where I, I told Nat, like I needed help and I started, I got, I went into therapy and,
[1:05:35] For me, it took a while, but the first act of creation that I had was just going to a coffee shop and writing and just journaling my thoughts and just letting it all pour out onto the page and just kind of discovering myself through the process of writing again.
[1:05:51] And it was like it was it was quite hard to get to that moment.
[1:05:54] The next day was a little bit easier.
[1:05:55] The next day was a little bit easier.
[1:05:57] I gave myself some space to be able to like be creative again and make stuff.
[1:06:03] And it was, it was, I think it was probably about eight months from the day that I took a step away from YouTube that I decided to come back and make a video again.
[1:06:12] And, you know, I've been vulnerable on camera before and I started making this video and it's like pretty scripted.
[1:06:16] I've got like an outline.
[1:06:17] I know the things that I want to talk about.
[1:06:18] And then it was like, you know, 10 minutes into recording that video.
[1:06:21] I just like I was like, I'm back.
[1:06:23] And then I just like burst out into tears crying.
[1:06:24] And I was like, shit, I'm going to have to include this in the video.
[1:06:28] I can't I can't not include like this, this, this moment where not that I'm against vulnerability or men crying.
[1:06:34] Like, I think that's really important.
[1:06:36] But I also kind of what we do.
[1:06:37] Yeah.
[1:06:39] I'm in the right room, I guess.
[1:06:42] But I also didn't want it to feel performative.
[1:06:46] It was just a real moment that I wasn't trying to turn on the camera and cry.
[1:06:50] I wasn't trying to...
[1:06:51] It just came out, and it wasn't in the script.
[1:06:55] But...
[1:06:56] I just realized how important it was to me to find that part of myself again, to find the joy in making stuff again.
[1:07:02] And it was, yeah, like I could say that I found the spark again in creating, but I'm not the same person.
[1:07:12] I'm not the same person I was before.
[1:07:14] My life looks very different.
[1:07:17] But I am able to find similar amounts of joy in my work, more joy with my family.
[1:07:23] also more frustration and still some anger and still some resentment.
[1:07:28] But it's, I think I've come through feeling a lot more and being a lot more open with my, my emotions than I was before.
[1:07:35] That's a lovely, a lovely thing to share because I know there'll be so many people listening to this who are feeling that way right now, like that loneliness and that exhaustion.
[1:07:44] And it is every time you hear someone else going through it, it just makes it a bit easier.
[1:07:47] So thanks for being so generous with this story today.
[1:07:50] Yeah.
[1:07:50] Thanks boys.
[1:07:51] Thanks.
[1:07:52] Yeah.
[1:07:52] This is fun.
[1:07:55] If you enjoyed this episode and want a little more, you might enjoy our subscriber-only eps, available on Patreon and Apple Podcasts.
[1:08:02] If you want a little more but don't want to pay anymore, then you can join our newsletter at theimperfects.com.au.
[1:08:08] And while you're there, you'll be able to see the names and faces of all the incredible people who helped make this show.
[1:08:13] A show made on the lands of the Wurundjeri, Woiwurrung people, and we pay our respects to elders past and present.
[1:08:19] The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
[1:08:25] The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.

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