# Vincent Fantauzzo - A Brush With Pain

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 13 Jul 2025, 1 h 37 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/btba3ios2qnqvsu0o5e1yjab.mp3

Art saved Vincent Fantauzzo’s life. 💌 Subscribe to our newsletter, the Vulnerabilitea-mail - www.theimperfects.com.au In this episode, Vincent paints the picture of his childhood in Broadmeadows, a childhood marked with violence and abuse, and how undiagnosed dyslexia deeply affected Vincent’s ability to read and write, as well as his memory. Now known worldwide for his award winning portraits of Asher Keddie (his now wife), Julia Gillard and Heath Ledger, Vincent chats to Hugh, Ryan and Josh about the incredible father figures, role models and friends that he has connected with throughout his life, and the impact they have had on his sense of self. Vincent, this was a dream come true. To watch this video on YouTube (a picture paints a thousand words after all), follow this link - 🫖 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwH3A-jSd3U Other Imperfects episodes mentioned in this episode Billy Slater - Leading from the (Full)Back - https://bit.ly/45ZZfQ6 🎨Things to check out Vincent’s Gallery - https://bit.ly/4n4CyAr ‘Heath’ Portrait - https://bit.ly/3Tp8amG ‘Love Face’ Portrait - https://bit.ly/4lcE4yQ ‘All that’s good in me’ (self-portrait as son Luca) - https://bit.ly/4kJF8u1 📖Things to read Unveiled by Vincent Fantauzzo - https://bit.ly/4e3PsKO 🚨If you, or someone you know, is struggling with thoughts surrounding suicide, suicidal ideation or self-harm, please call 000 or Life Life on 13 11 14. 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase the Vulnerabilitea House Cards here - https://bit.ly/3Cx4tGP🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - https://bit.ly/3Cx4tGP🩵To join our patreon community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - patreon.com/theimperfects 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts too, here apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

## Transcript

[0:00] There was some violence that I can't even talk about because of who and what, but I can tell you that it was enough to wet my bed every single night and...
[0:20] You know how I said the vulnerability can just pop up?
[0:24] It kind of sucks that things happen to a kid that then do this to them.
[0:32] We're all imperfect.
[0:34] And on this podcast, I'll be chatting with a variety of interesting people who are willing to make themselves vulnerable by sharing their own struggles and imperfections.
[0:43] I'm Hugh Van Kylenberg from The Resilience Project.
[0:45] And I'm Ryan Shelton from My Mum.
[0:47] And I'm Josh from Hugh's Mum.
[0:50] And this is The Imperfects.
[0:56] Well, if you like really good things, you've come to the right place.
[1:00] Because today we are chatting with a man who I know his name.
[1:04] I know how to say his name.
[1:05] I'd practiced it for some reason when he sat in front of us.
[1:08] I just felt like I was in the presence of a genius.
[1:09] I got nervous and I just panicked.
[1:11] Yeah.
[1:11] But it's Vincent Fantuzo.
[1:13] Fantuzo.
[1:14] Fantuzo.
[1:15] Yeah.
[1:15] You know how to say it.
[1:17] Yeah.
[1:17] I think it's Fantuzo.
[1:18] Yeah.
[1:18] Absolutely.
[1:19] I'd practiced it.
[1:20] One of Australia's great artists, painters, and lovely guy.
[1:26] So interesting.
[1:27] It was so nice to meet him.
[1:28] Extraordinary man.
[1:30] So in preparation for the interview, I listened to the book.
[1:33] His story is just incredible.
[1:34] Which, listening to it, read by Richard Roxburgh.
[1:37] What an experience.
[1:38] Oh, yeah.
[1:39] Yeah.
[1:39] Yeah, absolutely.
[1:40] Yeah.
[1:41] But he spoke about so many incredible things, like really honestly, beautifully and tragically about a very traumatic childhood.
[1:50] Yeah.
[1:51] There was dyslexia, discussions about dyslexia.
[1:54] Well, dyslexia is something we haven't spoken about on this podcast and it's...
[1:57] To actually hear someone talk about how much of a challenge it is, it's a really good thing for us all to listen to.
[2:05] But also, I mean, I found it, we all did, so fascinating because what Vincent really became famous for is his portrait of Heath Ledger that he did that won the People's Choice Award at the Archibald.
[2:17] You've probably seen it.
[2:18] It's the painting of Heath Ledger where there's three versions of Heath.
[2:22] But the story that Vincent tells about the painting of that painting is just incredible.
[2:29] Like such an amazing insight into that time.
[2:33] Yeah.
[2:33] It's a great app.
[2:35] Yeah.
[2:35] If we do so, say ourselves.
[2:36] Well, he's great.
[2:39] He's great.
[2:39] It's a great app.
[2:40] And actually the whole podcast is fantastic.
[2:42] Like there's many episodes.
[2:43] It's wonderful.
[2:43] The Imperfects, you should check it out.
[2:47] We'll put links to all episodes in the show notes.
[2:51] Just check out the 200-ish links in the show notes, yeah.
[2:54] Yeah, and a lot of chat about neurodiversity as well, which I obviously found very interesting.
[2:57] And I actually thought, I often will share a story and anecdote before we start an episode, but I always preface it by saying this will be no more than two minutes.
[3:05] And then everyone laughs and says, that's ridiculous.
[3:07] It'll go for much longer.
[3:08] It always does.
[3:09] This will actually go for two minutes, this one.
[3:10] Okay.
[3:11] But it's so relevant.
[3:12] It's so relevant.
[3:12] Watching the clock.
[3:13] Yeah.
[3:14] It's so relevant to today's episode.
[3:17] As most people probably know, we are parenting an autistic child and just had a lovely moment in our house the other day with two things that relate to this episode or two themes that relate to it.
[3:29] I'm going to give them, we've put a lot of work into protecting the identity of our kids in this and so I'm going to give them fake names here because it's the only way I know how to tell the story.
[3:37] And you might be thinking, oh, the gender gives it away.
[3:39] I might have switched the genders.
[3:40] You don't know.
[3:40] Yeah.
[3:40] So I'm going to call my kids here Archie and Michaela.
[3:45] Okay.
[3:46] Cool.
[3:46] Yeah.
[3:47] Beautiful names.
[3:48] Thank you.
[3:48] I love it.
[3:49] Michaela was- Just like Archie and Michaela-
[3:53] Yeah, I'm positive.
[3:54] Yeah.
[3:56] The names you made up and not the ones that I made up.
[3:58] Yeah, okay.
[3:59] So Michaela was doing a drawing the other day, doing a drawing of a scene that incidentally unfolded at her kinder.
[4:09] And she was drawing away and I said to her, my gosh, you are so artistic.
[4:15] And she went,
[4:16] No, I'm not.
[4:16] That's Archie.
[4:18] And I went, what?
[4:19] What do you mean?
[4:20] Artistic.
[4:21] Yeah.
[4:22] Oh.
[4:24] I know you said that because we've been talking about autism a lot.
[4:27] We want to have the language in the house.
[4:29] We're talking about our brains.
[4:30] I'm talking about my ADHD brain.
[4:31] Yes.
[4:32] And we're talking about Archie's autistic brain.
[4:35] And she just said, no, I'm not.
[4:37] That's Archie.
[4:39] That is hilarious.
[4:40] We've had some, we're now looking at getting some assessments done for Michaela as well, because we've had some challenges.
[4:49] And in that conversation, we've just been explaining to her that we will find out what type of brain she has.
[4:54] And she said, I think I already know.
[4:56] And I said, well, what is it?
[4:57] And she said, well, I think they'll find that I'm autistic and artistic.
[5:04] I love it.
[5:05] Which made me think of today's guest because it turns out he is both those things.
[5:09] He's an autist.
[5:10] Yeah, he's an autist.
[5:12] Can I just, you've finished that anecdote on exactly two minutes.
[5:16] There you go.
[5:18] Finally.
[5:20] At last.
[5:22] He really, Vincent, this is really had that aura of just, we're in the presence of a genius and he was fascinating.
[5:30] And even when the mic stopped, he didn't stop.
[5:32] He kept going and regardless for some of the most extraordinary stories I've ever heard in my life.
[5:36] The book is called Unveiled and I did have a bone to pick with Vincent, but I didn't get a chance.
[5:41] But when we went on our family holiday, we invited mum and dad on our family holiday because we wanted to help mum and dad, but we also wanted mum and dad.
[5:48] We were hoping mum and dad could do a lot of the heavy lifting, looking after the kids so Penny and I could get some time together.
[5:54] Dad would not put his bloody book down and he kept disappearing.
[5:57] Yeah.
[5:57] I go to mum, where's dad?
[5:58] She goes, he's hiding reading a book he's got.
[6:01] It was Vincent's book.
[6:02] Oh, wow.
[6:03] Yeah, it's a wonderful book and he's a wonderful, wonderful man.
[6:06] Yeah.
[6:06] And also like this bonus fact, which has no real effect or impact on the interview, but husband of Asher Keddie.
[6:15] Who is the subject of one of his Archibald People's Choice Award paintings with his beautiful painting love face.
[6:23] Who Archibald is actually the extended name of Hugh's fake son.
[6:27] Yeah.
[6:29] It's incredible how it all connects.
[6:30] Haki-bald.
[6:31] Haki-bald.
[6:32] Yeah.
[6:32] Haki-bald.
[6:33] Yeah.
[6:34] Anyway, let's get to it.
[6:35] This has been something we hope you enjoy.
[6:43] I feel extremely excited.
[6:44] We are joined by someone today who, and if this isn't a sign that you've made it, I don't know what is, is that there is a YouTube video with 1,200 views on how to pronounce his surname.
[6:54] Oh really?
[6:55] And they still fuck it up.
[6:56] Yeah.
[6:57] Let's go.
[6:58] So here you guys.
[7:00] Let's go around in a circle.
[7:01] Hugh, do you want to take a stab?
[7:03] Well, there are three different versions out there, and I would like to go with the Italian version, if I may.
[7:12] We are joined today by Vincent van Totso.
[7:15] Ba-bam.
[7:19] By the friend.
[7:21] By the Italian friend.
[7:23] Okay, let me just go with the flow then rather than trying to be.
[7:27] Yeah, yeah.
[7:28] Okay, we're joined today.
[7:30] This is the least like going with the flow than I've ever seen.
[7:34] Just let it flow.
[7:36] Reading off a laptop.
[7:37] Okay, I'm eagerly awaiting Hugh's second attempt.
[7:40] We are joined today by Vincent Fantuzzo.
[7:42] Yes.
[7:44] That's what I would have guessed.
[7:45] Why didn't I go with my... Of course you would have.
[7:47] Now it's sad.
[7:48] Now it's sad.
[7:49] In hindsight, that's what I thought.
[7:51] Well, Vincent, you're the first painter that we've ever had on The Imperfects.
[7:56] So cultural you are.
[7:58] Yeah, anti-cultural.
[8:00] But no, we're very excited.
[8:02] This is really, really cool.
[8:03] It's so nice to meet you.
[8:05] Thank you.
[8:06] No one really wants to talk about painting.
[8:08] I do.
[8:09] I do.
[8:09] Desperately.
[8:10] Desperately.
[8:11] So if you mix yellow and blue.
[8:13] Save it, save it.
[8:14] We'll find out later.
[8:18] But I know Hugh wants to give a proper introduction.
[8:20] Yeah, so I've written a bio for you, which I really enjoy doing it because having just finished your book and just learning about your life is incredible.
[8:30] So Vincent has never done things the easy way.
[8:33] A fighter in every sense of the word, Vincent learned to survive with his fists, firstly as a kid on the streets of Broadmeadows and then in a boxing ring where discipline, pain and resilience shaped him.
[8:43] Long before he picked up a paintbrush, he was throwing punches in the dark, fighting battles most people would never see, against the weight of severe dyslexia, against the feeling of not fitting in, and against a world that didn't yet understand the power and beauty that he held in sight.
[8:58] But somewhere along the way, Vincent traded gloves for brushes, and in that act, he found a new way to fight, not with force, but with feeling.
[9:06] His portraits don't just depict people, they disarm them.
[9:09] They reveal the truth beneath the skin.
[9:11] With the canvas and oil, Vincent has become one of the most celebrated artists in the country, winning the Archibald People's Choice Award a record-breaking four times.
[9:19] And yet, for all the acclaim, there is no ego in his work, only honesty and love.
[9:25] And perhaps no painting speaks more to the heart of who Vincent is than his portrait of his son, Luca, titled All That's Good In Me, a work that didn't just win the People's Choice Award at the Archibalds but won the hearts of the nation.
[9:37] His other People's Choice Awards were for...
[9:41] In 2008 for Heath, a poignant portrait of his friend Heath Ledger, completed just before the actor's tragic passing.
[9:48] In 2009, Brandon capturing child actor Brandon Walters from the film Australia.
[9:52] And in 2013, Love Face, a tender portrayal of actress Asha Keddie, who would later become his wife.
[9:59] At his core, Vincent is not just an artist, he's a father, a partner, a man who has taken every broken piece of his story and turned it into something transcendent.
[10:08] He once fought with his hands, now he fights with his heart.
[10:11] And in both arenas, Vincent has become something rare, a quiet warrior for vulnerability and courage.
[10:17] A man whose life reminds us all that greatness isn't about perfection.
[10:21] It's about connection.
[10:23] Welcome to the Imperfects Podcast.
[10:25] Well, um, firstly, I appreciate that so, so much.
[10:31] I feel like we should just leave it there because I sound really good and I'm going to fuck it right up.
[10:37] Well, thanks for doing it.
[10:41] So the plan was to talk about your childhood first, but just reading that, there's something else I want to ask you.
[10:47] What's your relationship like with the word vulnerability?
[10:50] When you think vulnerability, what do you think?
[10:54] You know, I try and be strong and I realise now how vulnerable I am.
[11:02] I feel like sharing vulnerability helps people, but I also feel like some things I've realized now is so sensitive that I haven't dealt with that when I talk about them, the vulnerability is very strong.
[11:17] Like, you know, I think it's helped people I know understand maybe my reaction and choices and even my kids or, or Asha, you know,
[11:29] Our childhoods are made up of so many things that affect us every single day, all day.
[11:36] And sometimes you don't even know why.
[11:39] And I'm starting to kind of learn why.
[11:44] Reading about your childhood, I was heartbroken by how vulnerable you were in so many situations, but then blown away by how you dealt with that.
[11:54] But then I also look at the person you are now and the paintings you're able to do must come from a place of like, you must be very vulnerable to be able to make the connections with the people you paint.
[12:04] There must be a level of vulnerability there, which is like a strength.
[12:07] You know, if you can't see, your hearing improves, and if you can't do a certain thing, you can grow in a different way.
[12:15] And I think not being able to read and write, feeling very insecure and wanting to learn desperately, I started to learn through conversation, and I was the annoying kid that asked too many questions.
[12:28] I love people, and I love meeting people and learning about them
[12:32] It's not just words, it's people's energy.
[12:34] I feel energy a lot.
[12:38] Like even thinking about it, my hair will stand up.
[12:41] Well, we were chatting about this.
[12:42] We went over for coffee as I was getting coffees.
[12:45] Sorry, you weren't invited.
[12:46] No, no, but I saw Vincent as he was walking in and he came over to the cafe.
[12:50] And one of the first things you mentioned to me is like my energy is a thing that you were picking up on.
[12:57] And we were talking about how like that is, can be like a strength, but also it can kind of if...
[13:03] If it's a bad energy.
[13:04] If it's a bad energy.
[13:05] Like I said, you have.
[13:06] Yeah.
[13:08] It was one of the first things he was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, which, which?
[13:13] No, I thought I might be wrong, but I felt like a very funny but calming energy.
[13:18] I mean, on that, I just, do you think, because you're someone who paint, you paint portraits of people, and so in doing that, you're obviously naturally a very curious person about other people.
[13:32] Are you comfortable in this environment where everyone, where we're talking about you?
[13:35] Like, is that something that you're comfortable doing?
[13:38] It's the only thing that was wrong in the bio was the ego thing.
[13:42] I love it.
[13:42] No, I feel awkward, but I feel privileged and humbled, but I also feel kind of obligated that...
[13:58] sharing stories and then seeing the impact that it has on people and maybe helps them especially as an artist it's hard to impact people just through paintings and now i've had a chance through the book and podcasts and things to be vulnerable and we all kind of go on the journey together so justin i grew up in boron those who don't know where is that uh
[14:26] Eastern suburbs, very leafy, very safe.
[14:29] It's a dry area.
[14:29] Sheltered.
[14:30] Very sheltered.
[14:32] Ryan grew up in Brighton.
[14:34] Main streets of Brighton.
[14:35] Yeah.
[14:36] Where all the Range Rovers go to die.
[14:39] Yes.
[14:40] I feel like Josh and I were officially the least feared boys in Bourne.
[14:46] And Ryan was, I'm going to guess, the least feared boy in Brighton.
[14:49] You don't know a thing about me, bro.
[14:50] Yeah.
[14:51] You were the most feared kid in Broadmeadows.
[14:56] Your childhood, I mean, it was, I had to stop when I was reading it because I just felt so scared for this child.
[15:05] Could you talk us a little bit through your childhood?
[15:09] Yeah, before I start that, I feel like, you know,
[15:14] People can grow up in a place like I did on paper.
[15:18] It's all of those things.
[15:21] But I know, you know, I have a lot of friends from Brighton, and I have friends from leafy suburbs, and sometimes they can go through just as...
[15:31] powerful and complicated situations.
[15:33] It could be that their executive dad doesn't give a fuck about them, their marks aren't good enough, they're gay and they can't tell their parents.
[15:42] Everyone has these complicated childhoods.
[15:44] I wouldn't want people to think I'm like, oh, I'm a victim, I was poor and all this
[15:49] But I think I grew up in fear in so many ways.
[15:55] Like, I don't know where to start, really.
[15:57] So can we start with the physical safety?
[15:59] That was certainly something that you didn't have as a child.
[16:02] I'll also just explain with my dyslexia and ADHD, it's a bit like watching TV and someone keeps flicking their channels and I'll forget what I'm talking about.
[16:12] There was...
[16:14] There was some violence that I can't even talk about because of who and what, but I can tell you that it was enough to wet my bed every single night and...
[16:33] You know how I said the vulnerability can just pop up and I don't mind talking about things, but some things, you know, it kind of sucks that things happen to a kid that then...
[16:50] do this to them.
[16:51] Even now, like most nights, I'll go to bed with a smile on my face, dancing on the bed with my kids and dressing up and doing silly stuff.
[16:59] And I'll wake up happy as well.
[17:01] But then Asher will wake me up because I'm screaming and kicking in my sleep or crying, you know, and
[17:10] I dream every single night, it's like a movie marathon.
[17:13] There's some good movies as well.
[17:16] But a lot of them are very complicated and it's like no drug fixes them, no alcohol fixes them.
[17:23] It's like fucking go away.
[17:25] And that's...
[17:26] So I don't know if that gives you an idea.
[17:28] That's the part that people don't see.
[17:32] Then there's the streets where, you know, you can't go to the milk bar without getting to a fight.
[17:38] I had to fight pretty much every single day.
[17:41] And as I got older, that included, you know, bats and bars and knives and even got to guns.
[17:49] And I was never a bully, but...
[17:53] I would bash myself in the face and make myself bleed when I'm going to fight someone, you know, and I'll just make them think I'm a fucking crazy dog.
[18:02] And I fought like that, but then I'd go home and cry because, you know, I didn't want to be that.
[18:09] Mm-hmm.
[18:12] It's really, really heartbreaking trying to even imagine that.
[18:16] How old were you when this is happening when you're fighting?
[18:18] This, I started, you know, like seven or eight, you go down the street and there's a bunch of kids and you're fighting, but they're scuffles, you know.
[18:27] I knew, I always knew what situation would go so far.
[18:31] Those situations you might get a black eye.
[18:34] When I got a bit older, there would be groups coming down.
[18:38] I'd get phone calls in my house.
[18:39] People ask for me and threaten my life.
[18:41] And I'm like, my 14-year-old worries about, Dad, I'm going to be late for soccer.
[18:47] And I was fearing for my life in cases.
[18:51] And what was frustrating was I wasn't looking for trouble and I wasn't starting trouble.
[18:58] But I think because of things that were out of my control abuse-wise were happening to me outside, I wouldn't take anything.
[19:08] Like, I don't care.
[19:10] I'm going to fucking get a bottle and stick it over your head and pick it off a fence, and I'm not taking shit outside where I can defend myself.
[19:19] Mm-hmm.
[19:20] It's like my past is a movie that I've watched and I'm so different now.
[19:26] And your siblings, where are you in the... Are you brother, sister, me, sister, brother?
[19:36] Right, so right in the middle.
[19:37] Yeah, okay.
[19:39] In the book, there's a heartbreaking mentioning of repeated sexual abuse that you suffered as a kid.
[19:49] And in the context of what we've been talking about, that is appalling in itself and awful.
[19:56] But the idea of having to handle that alone as a child just completely breaks my heart.
[20:03] And I guess I wanted to ask you, what does that do to you when you have to try and take on that stuff alone?
[20:08] Yeah, it's something I've thought about a lot.
[20:11] And again, it's one of those things that, you know, a lot of people have the same story.
[20:18] And since the book, I've heard a lot of people share their own experience.
[20:24] They kept this secret.
[20:25] They're in their 50s or 60s or 70s.
[20:29] One guy that was 84 years old.
[20:31] Oh my gosh.
[20:32] came up bawling his eyes out after the book talk, and he was with his wife, and she said in 65 years of marriage she hadn't seen him cry once.
[20:45] Oh my gosh.
[20:46] And this hits you really hard, but it's also why I feel like it's an obligation to talk about it.
[20:53] And if I help that one guy at 84 to let go of, not to let go, but his wife said, so much makes sense now.
[21:06] that poor guy had to hold that in all that time.
[21:09] And some people feel like, oh, well, you know, it was just these kind of things.
[21:14] It could be one moment for 10 minutes and that's enough.
[21:18] It doesn't matter if it went on for five years or it happened once and they'd be like, oh, well, I can't really, I don't want to, I don't want to tell people that every moment of my life after that 10 minutes, every single day, when I had my first girlfriend, when I lost my virginity or when someone...
[21:36] you know, tries to pick me up or says something complimentary or, you know, it's staying their life forever.
[21:43] And you can't underestimate that, what their feelings are.
[21:47] Some people can, like they can put it away and they can move on with their life.
[21:53] And that's, you know, we're all born with different minds and some people are more vulnerable.
[22:01] You can't escape like how, how,
[22:04] How much does it suck?
[22:04] You need a little delete button in your head because every, you know, here I am talking about it now and I thought about it, you know, when you watch a TV show, you just think about it all the time.
[22:15] Whether it gets you, might not even get you down, but why do you have to have that stupid fucking thought coming in all the time?
[22:21] It's very frustrating.
[22:22] Yeah.
[22:23] Yeah.
[22:24] My feeling when I read that was it was absolute heartache.
[22:28] But then very quickly I was just aware of how many people will read it and I was thinking this is going to change so many people's lives and to hear that an 84-year-old man came up and told you that must feel like you are by having the courage to share you've done something, you've done a really good thing there.
[22:49] Yeah, the book tour has been like a very emotional ride.
[22:55] I had one woman, she was bawling her eyes out as well, and she has a non-verbal autistic son, adult son, and she said she finally heard him talking.
[23:12] See, I'm Mr. My son calls me Mr. Motion.
[23:16] I'm a Mr. Man, Mr.
[23:17] Emotional at the moment.
[23:19] I was Mr. Forgetful and now I've changed to Mr.
[23:21] Emotional.
[23:23] But, you know, I feel like, wow, it's like... And then there's the dyslexia and different things and people understand their children now, you know.
[23:33] There's a...
[23:34] a large statistic of kids in youth prisons that have ADHD, dyslexia, autism on the spectrum somehow or some kind of diversity.
[23:45] Broken parents and all this, I ticked all the boxes and I could very, I mean, if I had got caught, I was pretty smart.
[23:52] I would definitely be there for a long time as well.
[23:56] There's also a very high percentage of adults,
[24:00] like super successful people with all the same things.
[24:04] They're entrepreneurs, Richard Branson and Steven Spielberg and there's Tom Cruise.
[24:10] But then there's like the sports people that are incredible minds, really strong.
[24:14] There's musicians, creative people, engineers, you know.
[24:18] So I feel like if there's more awareness, then there's a chance when you come to the fork in the road that you might get a better shot or even just...
[24:27] you know, you get so low on self-confidence.
[24:30] So if, you know...
[24:33] confidence in a young person is everything.
[24:36] And if you can get them confident about something positive, I got confident at one point about I was good at being bad.
[24:43] And yeah, good one.
[24:45] Yeah, that was great.
[24:46] How you smacked him in the head with a pole.
[24:48] And then you want to do it again to impress these people or you know, you're a class clown, which I think is actually not a bad thing.
[24:54] But you know, whatever is giving you confidence, then I had boxing and then I had art.
[24:59] And, you know,
[25:02] I feel a bit guilty sometimes saying, oh, I find I'm lucky I have a talent.
[25:08] But there's always something in these young people and adults that, you know, it might be dealing with people and empathy.
[25:17] It might be, you know, could be the engineering.
[25:20] There's a lot of problem solving.
[25:22] I want to put it out there for people to know that it's actually a gift.
[25:29] It's just a matter of, you know, how do you use it?
[25:31] Yeah.
[25:33] With the fighting, you're more often than not, almost every single time standing up for someone, you hated seeing people getting bullied more than anything.
[25:43] And that triggered something in you.
[25:45] In school, I would be in a special class.
[25:49] I was undiagnosed at that time.
[25:51] You know, there's also... Undiagnosed dyslexia, you mean?
[25:54] Every, like a spectrum, autism, you know.
[26:01] I got a whole bunch of good stuff, but I now know that it is good stuff.
[26:05] I didn't at the time, so I was in the special class.
[26:08] Me, the kid with Tourette's, the kid in the wheelchair, the blind kid, the deaf kid.
[26:11] And I'd go out at lunchtime and, you know, this particular kid still emails me now.
[26:19] He also had Tourette's and different things.
[26:20] And he'd go out at lunchtime and he would start humping a pole or something and kids would, or, you know, yelling out loud and kids would tease him.
[26:27] And I just, like...
[26:33] I just have to punch him in the face, you know, because I just, just... Couldn't handle saying something.
[26:39] I can get through a day and no one would know how hard it is.
[26:46] But then, you know, when you can't defend yourself verbally or, you know, you're doing terrible in class and you want to get kicked out of class.
[26:55] If you're in a class where you can't even read what's on the board, when it comes to your, you know, the class is going around reading a book and it comes to your turn and you know how bad it's going to be.
[27:09] You do something silly or funny and you get kicked out of class and I'm like, oh, fuck
[27:13] That was good.
[27:14] You know, just in time.
[27:16] And the same thing if you're at lunchtime and you whack some kid because he was picking on your mate, then you're in trouble.
[27:24] And it's just, it's very depressing for a kid, you know, and you just don't know how to find a way out.
[27:30] Yeah.
[27:30] Like I would meet people's parents and I would just sweat thinking they're going to know I'm dumb because that's what you feel like.
[27:36] Yeah.
[27:38] Um, when you, if you don't want to talk about it, obviously that's totally fine.
[27:43] But as Hugh just mentioned, um, as a kid, a relentless determination to stand up for people who are being bullied or picked on.
[27:54] I wondered if you've ever thought about it, that you as a kid at home were being bullied and picked on physically.
[28:01] Was there no one like you were, there was no one to defend you in that situation?
[28:04] Yeah.
[28:05] No, and that's part of the frustration now is, you know, how do you get through, and again I don't want to sound like some sook because I'm happy with who I am, but you know, how do you get through the whole of schooling?
[28:20] I didn't pass one, not one class, didn't even get a mark.
[28:24] didn't hand an assignment in because I didn't know how.
[28:27] Never wrote anything that would make any sense.
[28:30] And you get through school and no one says anything.
[28:33] And at home, you know, my mum was a single mum with five kids, mostly to four kids at home, and she slept on the couch for 15 years.
[28:44] And, you know, we'd have the sheriff's knocking on the door and all this kind of, we'd had no money.
[28:50] And she worked as well.
[28:52] She worked hard.
[28:54] But she's also the kind of person if, you know, we got a check from the council to go and buy shopping, she would give half of it to someone else.
[29:01] Someone else would always be sleeping on the couch as well.
[29:03] Or, you know, it was it was that's kind of how we grew up.
[29:08] But I still have feelings of resentment, like, like, did you know that was happening?
[29:16] You know, there's the sexual abuse.
[29:18] Yep.
[29:20] I also learnt very, very well to hide everything.
[29:23] So, you know.
[29:25] Is it a – because having not been in the same situation as you have as a kid, but even as a kid in my situation, showing weakness was sort of – you don't want to show weakness.
[29:40] Like it's just sort of something that sort of maybe it's just a boy thing.
[29:43] It's sort of like –
[29:45] It's a problem, I think.
[29:46] Yeah, it definitely is.
[29:48] But I think especially when we were kids, it's like as a boy, you don't want to seem like anything's bothering you.
[29:52] You're on top of things, you know.
[29:54] But for you having to kind of like keep it all a secret.
[29:57] I didn't show any weakness at all, you know, even like I was so hardcore about not showing any weakness.
[30:06] I'd break my leg and three weeks later, they put it in a cast, you know, so...
[30:11] I wouldn't cry.
[30:11] I was always laughing.
[30:13] I like humour and comedy, but it was either that or violence or anger.
[30:18] But even I did feel the anger, but it was more like a defence mechanism.
[30:24] You know, like I was pretending to be angry rather than crying.
[30:30] Have you always felt emotions like dialed up to 11?
[30:36] Did you notice?
[30:39] I toned it down from 15.
[30:40] Yeah, 11's not enough.
[30:44] Yeah, I think I did, yeah.
[30:49] Yeah, as far back as I can remember, yeah.
[30:51] I imagine in the environment you're describing that that's a problem.
[30:56] Yeah, well...
[30:59] I felt the emotions, but I didn't show them so much.
[31:02] Like, I wouldn't cry.
[31:06] I would almost take it.
[31:08] So my taking it and not showing it most of them was like, fuck you.
[31:13] So your fighting skills on the streets, you ended up pursuing.
[31:18] So you became a boxer and had the incredible privilege of being coached by Jack Rennie, is that right?
[31:25] Yeah.
[31:26] Yeah.
[31:27] What was it that made you think, right, I'm going to do this in a more safer environment or a professional environment?
[31:34] Riding my bike past his gym actually and I saw, you know, it was like a house and I heard people running up and down the driveway and skipping and I just randomly went in to have a look and I was doing Taekwondo.
[31:49] I had a lot of Taekwondo fights as well, but martial arts for kids is expensive and I had no money.
[31:56] I had no one to take me there.
[31:58] My whole life I kind of luck out on things.
[32:02] There was a guy there that was willing to let me train if I packed up and swept and did a kind of Mr. Miyagi style.
[32:10] Problem is for people like myself is I don't know how to speak Korean and I can't learn the words and they want you to do a pattern before you get your next bout.
[32:20] I don't even know the alphabet, you know, so I'm not going to learn that.
[32:24] How old were you at this point?
[32:26] I must have started that when I was seven.
[32:28] And again, I started it myself.
[32:31] I went there, I walked past and I saw them in there and I said, can I join and, you know, got someone's old suit and da-da-da.
[32:38] I actually ended up getting my black belt that was almost given to me because I couldn't do the patterns, but I was competing and I was winning the tournaments.
[32:45] Um, but then I couldn't do the, like, it's, it's silly.
[32:50] Right.
[32:50] Then I found a boxing gym.
[32:52] I said, Oh, this is good.
[32:52] No, you know, just punching people.
[32:55] This is great.
[32:57] I met this guy, Jack Rennie, who, um, coached Lionel Rose, many world champions.
[33:03] He was just this Aussie bloke in the back of the gym and, um,
[33:09] But I now know that he had a very similar upbringing.
[33:14] I've only learned recently from his son, who contacted me after the book and just said, wow, you really understood him.
[33:21] He was also secretly an artist that no one knew about.
[33:25] And he was kind of, yeah, he's a macho guy who's, you know, arts, you know, not my thing.
[33:30] I'm not allowed to do it.
[33:32] I was fighting.
[33:33] He knew my background and, you know, the guns and the violence of drugs, whatever it might be, and he said, if you want to train here, something's just got me so emotional.
[33:47] I grew up with no boundaries and we want boundaries, but we want to pretend that we don't.
[33:54] And he was the first person ever to say, don't fuck up.
[33:59] Do you want to train here?
[34:00] This is what you got to do.
[34:01] He said, I understand if your back's against the wall, you know, but you're going to have to be a different person.
[34:07] And I saw, fuck, you know, he taught me so much more than boxing.
[34:13] That's the dad I would have liked.
[34:15] Yeah.
[34:17] Um,
[34:19] One day, you know, I was fighting, I was winning fights.
[34:22] I thought, you know, I'm good at boxing.
[34:26] My first little trip, I went to Tasmania, got on a plane.
[34:29] It was like, wow, this is really cool.
[34:31] I want to be a boxer, you know.
[34:33] I thought this is a way out.
[34:34] This is how poor people get out, or not just poor, like people that are struggling.
[34:39] You know, it's a way out.
[34:41] So I wanted to thank him one day, so I came in with a drawing, gave it to him, and now I know why he had a tear rolled down.
[34:50] Like, you don't see this guy, emotional.
[34:53] Yeah.
[34:54] Um, and he said, uh, now I know you're going to be all right.
[35:00] Oh.
[35:01] Yeah.
[35:02] It was partially insulting and partially a compliment because I think he thought, you know, you're going to do better at art than you would at boxing.
[35:11] I thought I was good.
[35:13] I mean, that really makes me emotional thinking about that because to be validated by someone that you respect and that obviously respects you.
[35:25] The fact that I knew he set me boundaries and cared, then when he said that, it meant so much more.
[35:32] This was different.
[35:33] And I just, it's like someone, there's the confidence that kid needs to not end up in jail.
[35:43] It didn't completely change me.
[35:45] I still went on to do dodgy things.
[35:48] But I knew someone cared.
[35:51] That's like a bit of data that you store in your brain to go like, Here's the positive data that you also think about every day as well.
[35:59] And I think that's how you get through the bad shit when you have the positive outweigh it.
[36:07] So he asked me to do a drawing, a painting of Lionel Rose and Johnny Femison.
[36:12] They both trained.
[36:12] Lionel Rose used to be there in the corner and it was amazing.
[36:17] So I did this painting.
[36:19] It was from a very old photo where they once sparred.
[36:22] It was black and white.
[36:23] I painted it in colour.
[36:25] We used it to raise some money for a charity and it went to the Boxing Hall of Fame.
[36:29] And I got paid for the first time in my life some money.
[36:32] And I thought, oh, wow, this is cool.
[36:34] I can make some money.
[36:36] Are you still seven or eight at this stage or are you older?
[36:39] Oh, no, this is like, you know, 15.
[36:41] Oh, you're 15 at the stage.
[36:42] Okay, great.
[36:43] Okay, gotcha.
[36:44] 15 or 16 something.
[36:45] Wow.
[36:46] But I wasn't working at this time.
[36:47] I'd left school.
[36:48] I left school when I was 13.
[36:50] Again, like how do you, how does a kid get away with leaving while I was kicked out, but then don't go back to school?
[36:56] And I was working in a kitchen with these fuckheads.
[37:00] So the one time my dad comes back around, he says, oh, I'll get you a job.
[37:05] You could have got me some shoes, but...
[37:07] He never paid my mum one cent of child support because he wanted us to suffer, so then we blamed my mum.
[37:13] So she didn't get any help at all, not one bit, and she didn't want to challenge it because she didn't want a custody issue.
[37:20] That happens a lot too.
[37:21] I heard that story a lot with single mums.
[37:24] They don't want the abusive husband or the shit husband coming back for a custody battle, so they just shut up and live without any support.
[37:35] So he said, I'll get you a job, gets me a job with these scumbag criminals.
[37:40] I worked maybe 100 hours a week, sometimes all night, and got paid like $4.50 an hour or something.
[37:46] We're going to give you an apprenticeship, never happened.
[37:49] I skipped through a few restaurants similar for many years.
[37:52] So I was boxing as hard as I could at the same time.
[37:57] And then I get someone like Jack, and I'm like, oh, good people.
[38:00] There's good people there.
[38:01] Mm-hmm.
[38:02] I think it would be important for people to hear what your relationship with your dad was like and perhaps what you would have liked it to be like.
[38:14] There wasn't much of a relationship.
[38:17] I chased a relationship.
[38:19] Yeah.
[38:21] He never read a book, he never went to the park, he never rode a bike, he never kicked a ball.
[38:25] He didn't do anything.
[38:27] And I didn't know that that was normal until I started seeing other people doing it with their kids.
[38:33] And I was so jealous and I thought to myself as a little kid, I'm going to find what he's passionate about and I'll try and jump in there and do that.
[38:42] He was good at cooking and so I would just follow him around, try and help, try and get involved.
[38:51] there were key moments that were so disappointing.
[38:54] I thought, Oh, you know, I got to stop trying because trying is breaking me because every time you try and it doesn't work, then you get rejected again.
[39:04] Like I would send him a long message and, uh,
[39:09] It's his birthday or something and I'd get a thanks, you know, or it was my birthday.
[39:15] He was obviously reminded by someone else and he'd say happy birthday.
[39:18] And I'm like, well, that's fucking nice, isn't it?
[39:19] You know, I had all these boxing fights and sporting events, didn't turn up to one.
[39:24] And I started to think, I'm not, why am I not good enough?
[39:30] Then it was, I didn't do drugs because I was into sports.
[39:34] I thought, oh, marijuana's not so bad.
[39:36] I'll start a grow house.
[39:38] And so I somehow, I don't know how I rented a house.
[39:41] I got someone to help me.
[39:42] Stole electricity from other places.
[39:45] Created this grow house and I started to make some money.
[39:48] I couldn't manage it.
[39:49] And I said to-
[39:53] I was probably 19 or something.
[39:56] So old enough to know better.
[39:57] Should have listened to Jack.
[39:59] But there were certain stages, you know, it's all up and downs and people come into your life and out of your life and you forget the advice.
[40:04] And, you know, it's like when Mike Tyson lost his mentor, he went off the rails.
[40:10] Before that, he was focused.
[40:11] And I was...
[40:12] I was having one of those moments.
[40:14] I thought it was a great idea, finally making some money.
[40:17] Oh, I could be, you know, I'm good at this.
[40:19] Couldn't manage it.
[40:20] And I told, I was very protective always of my younger brother and he wasn't doing anything.
[40:28] And I thought, oh, you need a place to stay and do something like look after the house, just stay in there.
[40:33] And I didn't realise...
[40:35] what a fucking dumb thing to be doing to allow him into something he wasn't ever going to do without me doing that.
[40:43] And, you know, another season into it, I saw my dad for the first time in a few years and I desperately wanted, I wanted someone to stop me.
[40:56] Like I still, I still, you know,
[40:59] I still always want someone to stop me.
[41:01] Like that boundary that Jack had.
[41:03] And I saw my dad and met him down the street for a coffee.
[41:07] I told him what I was doing and I expect him to say, go to jail for this.
[41:11] What are you doing?
[41:11] And he said, can you cut me in?
[41:13] How do we set it up?
[41:14] And I'll grow it and you sell it.
[41:17] And you know, it just crushed me.
[41:20] And I'm like, fuck, like this is the...
[41:24] He was the guy that taught me how to shoplift.
[41:28] Part of me would assume, obviously wrongly, but part of me would assume that you would be happy that he approved of the thing you were doing.
[41:37] Yeah, well, I may have if I wasn't fighting that I wanted to do better.
[41:42] Right.
[41:43] But I know a lot of people that I was friends with would say, oh, that's cool.
[41:47] Yeah, you're like a mafia family now.
[41:50] I wanted him to say don't.
[41:51] And then I realized at that point what I'd done to my brother and I still don't forgive myself and I'm still sorry to him.
[41:59] I ended it right then.
[42:02] The one time he was meant to take me fishing my whole life, we went.
[42:08] I don't know what it was from, a swimming club or something.
[42:12] There was a father-son weekend in a caravan park and he came.
[42:17] I don't know how that happened.
[42:19] I was probably 10 and we were staying in a caravan park where you had to stay in a tent.
[42:24] Whoever wins the fishing competition gets to stay in the caravan.
[42:28] So he said, and some people are kind of funny, but he said, everyone went fishing and he said, let's go down to the trout farm.
[42:36] and we'll buy the fish and then we'll rub them in the dirt and we'll win.
[42:39] And we did it and I just wanted to go fishing.
[42:43] Every time I did something successful, I'd tell them about it or, you know, I win the Archibald People's Choice, nothing.
[42:51] Or, you know, he loved Alphas.
[42:53] I become ambassador for Alpha.
[42:56] I go and pick him up and, you know, I just felt like he was jealous.
[43:01] In terms of Alfa Romeo, you became ambassador for that car?
[43:04] Oh, whoa.
[43:04] Yeah, so then I become an ambassador for Ducati.
[43:07] And, you know, he had Ducati pictures, he couldn't afford one.
[43:12] I'm an ambassador.
[43:12] I'm designing a bike for them.
[43:14] Nothing.
[43:15] And then I just start to get disappointed.
[43:19] Is it hard not to blame yourself?
[43:21] That's what happens.
[43:22] You think like, why am I, is there something, why don't you like me?
[43:26] I'm at his funeral years later, and I'm sitting there with my son, who we met once.
[43:37] you know, vow he didn't even meet.
[43:39] Like, you got these beautiful grandchildren, but he'll go and have a relationship with another family and be fatherly to them.
[43:46] What the fuck is wrong with you?
[43:48] So I'm watching this priest who was calling him Cloud, his name's Claude, knew nothing about him.
[43:54] And they're talking about what a great person he is.
[43:56] And he was humorous and, you know, believed in a church.
[44:02] All these different things, family, man.
[44:04] And I was just like, what?
[44:06] All the relatives I didn't know because he had split with all of them over the years and I couldn't take it.
[44:14] And I got up out of my seat.
[44:16] I went up, I grabbed the microphone off the priest and I said, uh, looked at the coffin.
[44:21] I said, oh, dad, welcome to church first time, you know?
[44:24] And I said, I don't know who you're, who you're talking about here.
[44:30] And everyone's in shock.
[44:32] And I said, you know, this is not the guy that I knew.
[44:37] I'm not going to say anything bad, but whoever we're pretending is there isn't the person you're talking about.
[44:45] And I said, I always wanted to get to know my dad.
[44:49] I wanted him to love me.
[44:51] It didn't happen.
[44:52] And I still feel like I could have made it happen and I would have accepted it.
[44:57] It still pains me that I didn't fix it.
[45:02] And then I said, if there's one thing we can get out of it is that I ran out of time.
[45:07] You guys don't talk to each other.
[45:10] None of them talk to each other.
[45:11] Don't run out of time.
[45:12] Like go, you know, become friends or fucking forgive or move on or something.
[45:17] And then I dropped the microphone.
[45:18] No, I didn't.
[45:20] Well, within your right to, though, that is an extraordinary story.
[45:22] Yeah.
[45:23] Like that's like from a movie.
[45:24] I don't even know how it happened.
[45:25] Like it wasn't any plan, nothing I thought about.
[45:28] But then I was, I hadn't cried, you know, I cry pretty easily now, but I hadn't cried through him being sick, him passing.
[45:37] And I was kind of like, not that I definitely didn't want him to pass away.
[45:41] I just, I don't know, nothing happened.
[45:43] And then I picked up the coffin and I was just...
[45:51] I just couldn't stop, just like fucking, and I don't know, I still don't know why.
[45:58] I can't explain it.
[46:00] But there was a lot to come out and then that was it, you know, and I never got to fix it.
[46:08] But I just feel like, you know, all these things bottle up.
[46:13] Thanks for sharing that.
[46:14] That's an amazing story.
[46:17] It sounds like it was just a huge release.
[46:21] Yeah, and it wasn't a relief, but release it definitely was.
[46:25] It kills me that I want to talk nicely.
[46:29] I don't want to be bitter.
[46:32] And strangely, I don't know, my feelings were more powerful than my siblings about the whole situation.
[46:40] But I think I'm just a bit more honest about it.
[46:43] Yeah.
[46:44] Don't know how I've gone into this positive talk.
[46:49] Let's all have a shot of vodka.
[46:52] Fine.
[46:53] It's 12.15.
[46:56] So I imagine then, like as a teenager and not being in school, that's when art sort of becomes like, I mean, it's natural for a teenager to think like, well, what am I going to do when I grow up essentially?
[47:10] Well, this is something I really want to discuss because art is the thing that I'm good at.
[47:19] if art's really not a way out yet because I'm very lucky and I'm a percentage that is successful.
[47:28] But every kid starts off as an artist.
[47:30] We're all creative.
[47:32] Everyone likes paint and drawing.
[47:34] And you go into a classroom, it's everywhere.
[47:37] And then it stops.
[47:38] And, you know, my motivation is not making money.
[47:42] You know, it's about...
[47:44] Jamie Oliver-ing the art world.
[47:47] You know, like now kids want to be chefs.
[47:50] People want to cook the bleh, bleh, bleh.
[47:52] And before they didn't even know what it was.
[47:54] Yeah.
[47:55] But I want to make art more accessible.
[47:57] I want to make it somewhere where these Indigenous kids that are talented and someone else, they...
[48:04] Football's a way out, you know, boxing's a way out and art should be a way out too.
[48:10] One of the things that happened very early in your career where you were probably seeing yourself as an artist was your friendship with Heath Ledger.
[48:16] Yeah.
[48:17] And you painted his portrait.
[48:21] In fact, I might get you to tell a story, but the whole timing of it really puts you on the world stage.
[48:27] Yeah.
[48:27] We were planning on doing this portrait for a long time.
[48:30] I met Heath through some of his very close friends.
[48:33] Like we'd often get together and, you know, chat about doing the portrait someday.
[48:37] Just so happened that this one Christmas he was going back to Perth and I went there.
[48:44] And he was in a really vulnerable place.
[48:48] So was I at the time.
[48:50] And you know, you can know someone for 10 years and you have a moment where you become really close.
[48:57] You know, it's like, or it can happen on the first day you meet people and you know they're friends forever.
[49:02] And we just had this night and conversations over this weekend where we just said, oh, like everything that we could possibly imagine was,
[49:13] light stuff, dark stuff, childhood.
[49:16] You know, it was like a lifetime of therapy in one session and laughs and all sorts of things.
[49:21] He wasn't drinking.
[49:22] He was focused.
[49:24] All of this came into one painting.
[49:26] You can only choose one image.
[49:27] Well, I kind of cheated and put three of them.
[49:30] But it was very complicated.
[49:32] And I arrived at his house and he sat down and it was seven in the morning.
[49:38] He hadn't even put a top on.
[49:39] He's in his pyjamas.
[49:40] And we...
[49:42] I just followed him out.
[49:42] Like, we hardly talked.
[49:43] It was a weird feeling.
[49:46] He sat down, grabbed his chair as he walked past the kitchen table, sat in the backyard, and I quickly got my camera out.
[49:54] I knew something was happening.
[49:55] And he sat there, and for a long time, just gives me the goosebumps again.
[50:03] And he just sat there and I felt, I just felt him going somewhere.
[50:07] He closed his eyes for a long time.
[50:08] Then he opened them and he's just staring and I started taking photos.
[50:12] This lasted a long time.
[50:13] Then he got up and he walked around himself a little bit like analyzing himself and looking.
[50:19] And then he started screaming, like, you know, like you feel it coming from his gut and he's like bursting and spits coming out his mouth.
[50:29] Then he breathes and he walks around again.
[50:31] And then he faces around and he looks at himself and he starts laughing in his ear, whispered something, can't hear it, and then screaming again.
[50:42] And then he was standing right in front of himself where I can't take a photo.
[50:45] He didn't care.
[50:46] Like it was this, I wish I had filmed it because it was the most powerful show I've ever seen.
[50:51] Oh my God.
[50:52] And then it ended.
[50:53] And that was the painting.
[50:55] He did it, but it was a collaboration building up, and that's why... And he knew he was doing this for the purpose of you.
[51:01] Yeah, he wanted to show, like he wanted to give it everything.
[51:04] Wow.
[51:05] And that's the thing I'd like to show people.
[51:07] And it doesn't, that's amazing.
[51:10] You know, shooting Guy Pearce was a little bit like that too, but also shooting...
[51:14] you know, painting Julia Gillard.
[51:17] You know, there's all these different people like really giving something that comes through.
[51:21] That's why a portrait's good, not because it's accurate.
[51:24] Julia Gillard do a similar sort of thing.
[51:25] Yeah, she did.
[51:27] Julia was incredible.
[51:29] I'll skip back to Heath in a second.
[51:31] But Julia was so funny, you know, like she had such a great sense of humour.
[51:36] Anyone that came into the studio, if she happened to be there, she'd talk to them and spend time and listen.
[51:41] I don't know about politics at all.
[51:43] I don't know.
[51:44] I'm sure people like, dislike for all sorts of different reasons.
[51:47] I just knew her as Julia and she was so passionate about children, education and the future.
[51:56] I just wish people had a scene and this is what I get to see and this is why I think it's important.
[52:02] But I got to see a really genuine person who was judged by their looks, by their nose, by their body.
[52:08] She let me paint her however she wanted.
[52:10] She just said, don't make me look like them.
[52:13] and don't make it about fashion or, you know.
[52:15] When you say them, do you mean?
[52:16] They're all old white dudes with a suit on, three-quarter, you know.
[52:22] Yeah, because this was the official portrait, wasn't it?
[52:25] Yeah.
[52:25] So she didn't see it until we unveiled it.
[52:29] Oh, wow.
[52:29] And I love that trust.
[52:32] Back to Heath.
[52:33] As he left, he was leaving right after this, and he said, this painting's going to change our lives.
[52:39] Wow.
[52:43] It's interesting.
[52:44] His dad recently told me that he definitely wasn't suicidal.
[52:50] He wanted to live.
[52:51] He wanted the future.
[52:52] He loves his daughter.
[52:54] He always felt like it wasn't going to be a long life.
[52:57] He was also very spiritual.
[52:59] And I think...
[53:00] This is another privilege of what he gave me.
[53:03] So many things, but I became very close with his dad who had lost a son.
[53:09] That's Heath's dad, I'm not taking that away, but he was very, he's still very generous to me.
[53:15] But he recently said he learnt a lot from me as well.
[53:20] And that was, Heath made decisions that were very different to Kim's way of thinking.
[53:25] And he didn't understand them and they butted heads about, you know, like Brokeback Mountain, you know, not getting paid enough and different things and buying a house here or a restaurant, supporting other artists.
[53:36] He did so much of people don't know about and it was a bit frustrating for his dad.
[53:41] And now his dad has become much more spiritual as well.
[53:46] And he said, I just wish that Heath could see me now.
[53:51] I wish Heath knew that I now understand him.
[53:54] And I think there's a lesson there for people that while we're here and we're living, you know, I'm not always perfect at it either, but just let people know or just be understanding.
[54:06] So he said this painting is going to change our lives.
[54:11] How soon after that did he pass?
[54:13] So I went back and started doing the painting.
[54:17] Oh, sorry, sorry.
[54:17] So he said that before you'd done the painting.
[54:19] Yeah.
[54:19] So that was just as I left his house after taking, I did a little sketch for him that looked very similar, like just a line drawing, the concept.
[54:29] And as I was getting in the car, he grabbed me and he said, this painting is going to change our lives.
[54:36] I felt really inspired, especially after watching that powerful thing.
[54:40] To honour that performance.
[54:41] And I never worked so hard in my life, 15 hours a day, not eating, painting.
[54:46] I took the painting home so I wouldn't have to even leave to go to the studio.
[54:50] I was using my television screen in my apartment to look at and paint him.
[54:55] And I had them next to each other as reference images.
[54:59] And I finished the painting after three weeks.
[55:02] I sent him an email.
[55:04] of the artwork, don't know if he got it, turn the TV on in the morning and he died and it was just everywhere.
[55:13] And I was like, it was, yeah, I couldn't even believe it.
[55:19] Like I just didn't believe it.
[55:21] That's surreal.
[55:23] Yeah, very surreal.
[55:24] Everything about it's surreal.
[55:25] Yeah.
[55:26] Then all this press, there's newspapers and magazines and TV knocking on my door.
[55:31] Next day it's on the cover of like Herald Sun and Age and all that stuff.
[55:34] And you want your whole life for your art to be on the cover.
[55:39] And it's this bittersweet guilty feeling.
[55:43] But I hear Heath in my head saying, well, you fucking wanted to have, you want this and I've given it to you.
[55:49] Don't fuck it up.
[55:51] So I knew he would want it to be in the Archibald.
[55:54] I knew he would want to make a statement.
[55:57] So I then pack it up, catch a plane myself with the painting to Sydney to put it in the Archibald.
[56:07] People are like recognizing me at the airport and the painting and the cab driver.
[56:10] And it's like, oh, fuck, this is really weird.
[56:12] But my friends died.
[56:14] So how did the painting get out there?
[56:18] I had shared it with a few people.
[56:21] One of them happened to be head of a news, blah, blah, blah.
[56:25] Like, just, hey, this is what I'm doing.
[56:27] And people knew I was doing the painting.
[56:28] Gotcha, gotcha.
[56:28] But it was out there.
[56:30] But then I gave them, obviously, a better image and talked to them after getting the family's permission.
[56:35] And they agreed that this is what Heath would like.
[56:37] Yeah.
[56:38] It gets into the Archibald.
[56:40] There's a lunch the day before for all the artists to meet.
[56:44] Edmund Capon, who was the head of the gallery at the time, takes me aside into his office, pours me a vodka.
[56:50] Thank you.
[56:50] I like those.
[56:51] We have a couple of shots and he says, congratulations, you're going to win the Archibald.
[56:55] And I was like, oh, wow, fuck.
[56:57] It gets even more painful and good at the same time.
[57:01] I feel sick, but I feel like, you know, he's sitting next to me and we're doing this.
[57:08] Then he said, make sure you're there in the morning because you have to be there.
[57:15] You see where your painting is hanging as well.
[57:17] So my painting is hanging there, which that's where the winner will hang.
[57:21] I saw them move the painting.
[57:23] So I go to the art gallery in the morning and my paintings moved.
[57:28] And then they do the announcement and Dal Catherine Barden wins great painting, amazing artist.
[57:35] I'm happy for her.
[57:36] But then I'm like, and for the first time in Archibald history, there's a runner up prize and it's Vincent Fantuzo.
[57:44] And then they have all this, you know, all the cameras, they still use me for all the press.
[57:48] There's a dinner you have in the evening for the winners.
[57:51] I'm invited to that one.
[57:52] First time someone extra is invited.
[57:55] So, thing is...
[57:58] I did have a chip on my shoulder.
[57:59] I was upset.
[58:00] Edmund said, don't worry, you'll get it next time, mate.
[58:03] Anyway, didn't.
[58:04] But I don't want to sound like, you know, I'm not, I am so grateful for what the Archibald Prize has given me.
[58:12] Because I, there's other people who say, well, you're lucky, you know, and I am, and I appreciate it.
[58:18] And I think it's a great prize, gives all this stuff.
[58:21] I was...
[58:23] annoyed about it.
[58:25] Just to step back a sec, because that's a real... Like, that whole experience is obviously the different... Like, extreme ends of the spectrum in terms of, like, highs and lows, you know, more or less.
[58:42] Like, that's a real mix of emotions.
[58:44] He said it was because the sponsors felt uncomfortable that they might be looked at as cashing in on his passing.
[58:51] But I mean, yeah, I mean, it's such a...
[58:54] I have no proof of this, by the way.
[58:56] No, no, but you've just lost one of your very close friends and he is the painting that you're then taking to the Archibald and this is like, as an artist, you don't get many...
[59:11] This is the biggest moment of your life possibly.
[59:13] It changes lives to win the Archibald forever.
[59:16] And so you're juggling these two things.
[59:18] It's so complex.
[59:21] I just can't even imagine like how you manage those emotions.
[59:27] Yeah, my head's blowing up.
[59:30] And then I win the People's Choice by quite a bit, I think.
[59:34] And it was, you know, that was Heath and me and the circumstances and I get that.
[59:38] But you know, that was a massive deal.
[59:41] So then I go back to Heath's family and spent a lot of time with Sally.
[59:48] And I wanted to give the painting to Sally.
[59:51] And she said,
[59:54] I feel guilty having the painting.
[59:55] I want people to have, I want to share the painting with people and to be somewhere where someone can go, people that appreciate him can go, you know, they're not going to a grave, they're going to a piece of art in the gallery and that's beautiful.
[1:00:11] So we together donated the painting to New South Wales Art Gallery.
[1:00:16] Annoyingly, the painting has never been hung.
[1:00:18] It's in the basement of the art gallery.
[1:00:24] can you either give it back to them or hang it?
[1:00:27] You know, like I also understand a gallery has thousands and thousands of pictures that and they can't show them all.
[1:00:34] I understand all that.
[1:00:34] That's fine.
[1:00:35] I'll buy it back from you.
[1:00:37] There's a new director at the art gallery, if you're listening, like, let's make a deal.
[1:00:43] I'll give you a, I'll give you Asher and you give me Heath.
[1:00:48] The painting of it.
[1:00:50] At the moment she was staring at me all the time.
[1:00:55] In that process, are you able to, with all that stuff going on,
[1:01:01] Were you then or have you since been able to properly grieve losing such a special person in your life?
[1:01:07] Yeah, I have because I often, like I have a tattoo here that Heath had and that reminds me every day to be grateful for.
[1:01:19] to be all the things that he was passionate about.
[1:01:23] And, you know, more gifts just keep coming, you know.
[1:01:28] He just is my friend and his parents have been so nice to me.
[1:01:33] I feel like I have...
[1:01:35] They're my family, but Kim's not a father, he's not a brother, he's not a friend, he's just something else.
[1:01:42] I just feel like we've both learnt so much from each other.
[1:01:47] I can call him to...
[1:01:50] I had a divorce and he was so diplomatic and made me see sense, and I had other...
[1:01:59] gave me advice financially and sorry I didn't listen.
[1:02:05] So Heath's death, I wondered if it brought up anything for you around your own mortality.
[1:02:10] I know as a child you wrote a suicide note and that no one picked up or no one found it, which was almost the most heartbreaking part.
[1:02:19] My handwriting may have had something to it.
[1:02:23] Yeah.
[1:02:24] The little guy, little picture I drew would have made sense.
[1:02:26] Yeah.
[1:02:28] So, and then it was again, when you were in your teens, you wrote another note because the world was too much for you on two occasions and it swallowed you up in a way that you couldn't handle anymore.
[1:02:37] Yeah.
[1:02:38] I just wonder when you think about, when you reflect on that person, that child, that teenager, how you feel now, where your life is now, knowing the many experiences, the many colorful experiences you've had in your life and the joys, the ups, the downs.
[1:02:54] When you look back on that child or that teenager who felt that way, how do you feel now?
[1:02:59] It's the reason that drives me to want to do the art thing, to want to talk about the book and to go places that are very difficult, because I know that kid is still there and I wish I could help them.
[1:03:13] And you know how the – who's doing the mental health thing with the schools?
[1:03:18] Yeah.
[1:03:20] Oh, yes.
[1:03:21] Yeah.
[1:03:21] So like that, say for the dental van comes to your school or my son I didn't know had a problem with his eyes, the eye van came and where's the learning diversity, the dyslexia, ADHD, autism, all this, where's that van?
[1:03:43] And then if the van comes, they can tell all the other kids
[1:03:49] dumb, you know, or they might be different, but so is this amazing sports person.
[1:03:56] So is this musician.
[1:03:57] So is this, you know, you're lucky, you know, you're all going to want, you're all going to want to be like them because without those different people, we wouldn't even have electricity.
[1:04:08] Right.
[1:04:08] Yeah, they're the people that ultimately innovate and change the world.
[1:04:12] But then you get tested and, one, it's hard for the kids in a private school because of the embarrassment and the parents and all this stuff.
[1:04:20] Then the poor kid can't afford a test because a stupid test is like $2,000 and they just...
[1:04:26] It's not going to happen.
[1:04:27] And then if they did find out, the initial feeling when you find out something like this is you feel like, oh, okay, I have a disability.
[1:04:35] That sucks.
[1:04:35] I can't become a pilot or I can't become a cop, which is all ridiculous.
[1:04:41] And how do you support those kids afterwards?
[1:04:45] So that's something in the future I'm also passionate about is maybe making some kind of change in the education department or something where you find these kids and you give them support and you let them know that they have power and maybe it's art.
[1:05:02] Yeah.
[1:05:02] Well, I couldn't agree more.
[1:05:04] As I mentioned before the interview, one of our kids has been diagnosed with, it feels like everything under the sun, and has gone from an educational setting that they would lie in bed at night and tell us that they were stupid.
[1:05:14] It was heartbreaking.
[1:05:17] And now we are at a different educational setting where metaphorically the van has arrived.
[1:05:22] And I listened to them tell my dad with great pride that they're autistic the other day.
[1:05:28] Yeah.
[1:05:29] See, this breaks my heart.
[1:05:30] This is just fucking kills me that this kid's lying in bed.
[1:05:37] They hate themselves.
[1:05:39] The feeling of thinking you're stupid and you can never be like anyone else is there's some very incredible autistic people, like game changers, the most honest and interesting people there.
[1:05:53] truthful and passionate and they feel everything and show everything.
[1:05:57] And there's all different like dyslexia and all that.
[1:06:02] There's so many different, it's so broad.
[1:06:05] And ADHD is a problem because a lot of people say, oh, everyone has ADHD, I have ADHD.
[1:06:11] When you got it, you really know.
[1:06:13] And being a parent of someone that ticked all the boxes,
[1:06:19] You know how I said I failed everything my whole life?
[1:06:21] The only time I got full marks is when I got tested.
[1:06:24] I was like, fuck, this is good.
[1:06:28] 100%, and guess what else I got?
[1:06:31] Anyway, this is good.
[1:06:33] I always tell people congratulations because you got one of the magical ones.
[1:06:38] It's true.
[1:06:38] It's like we've got to support these people because they're what makes the world interesting and better.
[1:06:46] Just to change tact a little bit, earlier we discussed the sexual abuse.
[1:06:53] I wondered what it was like telling your wife Asha about that for the first time.
[1:06:59] That must have been an incredibly difficult moment.
[1:07:02] What was that like?
[1:07:03] How did that come about?
[1:07:06] It's one of those things where I made a decision when I was young to just keep this to myself because I didn't want to be defined by it.
[1:07:16] I still don't want to be defined by it.
[1:07:18] It's like someone in the public eye gets cancer and all of a sudden they have to be a face for cancer or something or it could be whatever happens.
[1:07:31] And I had this incredible ghostwriter that I was working with.
[1:07:37] It was therapy.
[1:07:39] I was getting, the good thing about it is having therapy every day, but I was getting paid for it, which was a bonus.
[1:07:44] Because it would have cost, with my life, it would have cost a fortune.
[1:07:48] Anyway, Craig Henderson, incredible guy.
[1:07:51] He's so different to me, whole different life.
[1:07:57] And he just listened without judgment.
[1:08:00] And I felt that I didn't have judgment.
[1:08:02] So I told him all the stuff that we even didn't put in the book.
[1:08:05] And I felt so trusted there that I could speak openly.
[1:08:10] And it just came out one day.
[1:08:11] And I was so shocked even that it came out.
[1:08:15] And it had a very strong impact on him as well.
[1:08:18] And I went home that night and I was just, I looked like I'd been hit by a truck.
[1:08:24] never spoken in my life and now i had and ashes asked me what had happened and then i i think once i said it once it was very difficult but i said it again and um like you know
[1:08:40] she cares so much and I think it hit her even more than it was hitting me.
[1:08:48] And I think it just made her, again, it brought us a lot closer and I think it made her understand, made her very angry and it also made her understand a lot about me.
[1:09:02] Like I'm, you know, I don't think I'm difficult to live with, but
[1:09:06] I am very passionate and I'm very protective of our kids and, you know, I fight hard for them.
[1:09:14] And I think that's how it came about.
[1:09:19] And then I wasn't sure if I was...
[1:09:21] I told Craig, but I wasn't sure if we were going to keep it in the book.
[1:09:26] And we discussed it a lot.
[1:09:28] And I think that's why, you know, I just feel it's important to, you know, just...
[1:09:37] Yeah, maybe like it has opened the doors for people to feel like, you know, if you're constantly sweeping things under, you're just not being true to yourself.
[1:09:50] There's the truth part is that kind of thing.
[1:09:52] Yeah.
[1:09:54] Yeah, I think one of the absolute tragedies of something like that, I think sexual abuse, is that I can't help but think of how alone this young child is when it happens.
[1:10:08] And then it forces people to carry it alone for the rest of their lives often.
[1:10:14] People blame themselves.
[1:10:15] Yeah.
[1:10:16] In all sorts of ways.
[1:10:17] Loneliness continues.
[1:10:18] And, you know, if you don't talk about it, then you have fucked up time for the rest of your life.
[1:10:25] You know, like no one understands the chaos going on in your head in a certain moment.
[1:10:31] And that's any type of abuse, and it can be verbal abuse, emotional abuse, control.
[1:10:39] There's a lot of different ways to abuse someone, and I think if you don't talk about it, and it doesn't have to be with a therapist, it could be with one of your mates, you don't have to tell the whole world, like I did.
[1:10:49] I think you just have to tell someone, especially the people close to you, so they get you.
[1:10:55] They don't have to help you.
[1:10:56] They just have to understand.
[1:10:57] Yeah.
[1:10:58] Well, I think far from being defined by it, I think it's just a gift that you've given to a lot of people.
[1:11:04] Yeah.
[1:11:05] Your passion for people is just off the charts.
[1:11:08] I was wondering how you navigated becoming a father personally.
[1:11:13] given your own experience of, I hope you don't mind me saying, but an abusive father and then collecting, maybe not collecting but finding father figures along the way, how did you navigate becoming a father and then also what,
[1:11:34] What do you want for your kids out of you?
[1:11:37] I am collecting.
[1:11:37] And if there's any that want to leave me an inheritance, I'm open to, because I don't have one of those.
[1:11:44] I was really nervous, so nervous.
[1:11:46] I remember calling up Matt Moran, like, oh, fuck, Matt, what am I going to do?
[1:11:50] Matt Moran, for those who don't know, he's the famous chef and your very good friend.
[1:11:55] So I was kind of hoping for a girl because I thought, how am I going to be a role model to a boy now?
[1:12:03] I mean, I absolutely love my boys.
[1:12:05] You know, I was so nervous and I'm still nervous if I'm doing the right job.
[1:12:10] I don't know if sometimes I'm too friendly, you know, like not a dad.
[1:12:15] Do I set enough boundaries?
[1:12:16] Because I want my kids to love me.
[1:12:18] I don't want to be strict.
[1:12:20] I can say I've never had to raise my voice to my kids.
[1:12:25] Definitely not my hand.
[1:12:26] I don't, you know, we discuss things and we talk about things and I really believe in the cycle ending.
[1:12:35] To me, success is that my adult children will say they love me.
[1:12:39] Like, I don't care about anything else.
[1:12:43] I still don't know how to do it, to answer your question.
[1:12:46] One thing I do know is I want them to know they can tell me everything and I'm always on their side and then we find a solution.
[1:12:52] Beautiful.
[1:12:53] So as a kid, as you're trying to make sense of the world around you, you're probably becoming vastly aware that probably when you start school and you compare yourself to other kids that words, reading or writing isn't coming easily to you.
[1:13:08] You didn't know what dyslexia was obviously, but you realised you were different.
[1:13:12] I didn't know for a long time.
[1:13:13] It might have helped how I became good at drawing and painting because I had to start recognising things as shapes and I became quite good at it.
[1:13:25] So I can't read out loud, but if I get a text, I just look at the whole thing as a paragraph and I know what it says.
[1:13:31] It's very strange.
[1:13:31] So I can read very fast.
[1:13:33] Oh, really?
[1:13:33] Yeah, but not word for word, but I know exactly...
[1:13:37] That's John, and he said he's going to be late for the day, and I just looked at it as a picture.
[1:13:41] So that's cool.
[1:13:43] Yeah.
[1:13:43] Replying to it, I use voice to text.
[1:13:46] But as a kid, I had to go for my learner's permit four times, five times maybe, until I figured out you could go with a friend and I can cheat off them.
[1:13:57] And you just become a liar.
[1:13:59] And so now you're stupid and you're a liar and you're a fake, and then you develop imposter syndrome for your whole life.
[1:14:07] Now I think it's different and it's a reason why the bus has to come to the school because it's devastatingly lonely and embarrassing.
[1:14:18] It was then.
[1:14:19] I think it can be different now because kids can say, well, I can't read or write.
[1:14:23] Or if that's their weakness, might be maths, could be memory.
[1:14:27] But if you need to get that chair through that door and you think it doesn't fit, I know exactly how it's going to fit.
[1:14:33] You know, you can solve problems and you can, in an emergency, I'm calm.
[1:14:38] You know, there's different things you can do that other people can't.
[1:14:41] Yeah.
[1:14:42] But at the time, I had no idea.
[1:14:44] I just thought until uni when I had to face, but I just thought it was stupid.
[1:14:48] Yeah.
[1:14:49] I was wondering if I could ask you about Asha and meeting Asha because I know with my partner, Jam, like being with her.
[1:14:58] She's put up with a lot of.
[1:14:59] She's heaps, heaps.
[1:15:02] But being with her, she's sort of, I guess, like unlocked certain things, like made me realise things about myself that I didn't realise about myself in a really positive way.
[1:15:18] I've never said it in this way, but I think seeing her love me in the way that she does has sort of helped me love myself more.
[1:15:30] She just stole my words, Asha.
[1:15:31] I was about to say the same thing.
[1:15:35] It's really true.
[1:15:35] Like I've never had anyone care for me like Asha cares and care for the boys.
[1:15:42] I've never had that level of...
[1:15:46] caring and love in my life.
[1:15:49] She's the opposite to me in a lot of ways because she has a different way of looking after us, all the things that,
[1:15:57] that I can't do and it's just worked out that way.
[1:16:00] But, you know, she's got my back, and she's also protective.
[1:16:04] And sometimes she says, Well, that's just not fair, you know, and no one said that for me before.
[1:16:09] Like if she thinks someone's done wrong by me, or, you know, or even growing up, and she'll say, like you were saying, who was who was looking out, I have someone looking out for me now.
[1:16:20] And I look out for her too.
[1:16:22] And that's a good
[1:16:24] It's nice to feel protected.
[1:16:25] I think that's a thing kids want.
[1:16:27] That's another thing.
[1:16:29] I want my kids to know they're protected.
[1:16:31] You know, they have, I have their back and they have mine forever.
[1:16:35] Like that's, nothing can change that for me.
[1:16:38] Can you quickly just retell the story of how you met?
[1:16:41] Because I loved reading that part of the book.
[1:16:43] I was doing, I did 30 portraits 30 days in New York and in Hong Kong.
[1:16:48] And the idea was I meet, say you, and you suggest someone else and they suggest someone else.
[1:16:54] Oh, wow, cool.
[1:16:55] And each day, and you end up meeting like a fascinating, diverse group of people.
[1:17:02] And I did it in Australia, but it was more about, can you tell me someone that inspires you?
[1:17:07] Matt Moran suggested Asher.
[1:17:09] I had no idea who Asher was.
[1:17:11] She didn't know who I was.
[1:17:12] It almost didn't happen because I'm disorganized.
[1:17:15] I was a single fathering and I still can't even organize my own lunch.
[1:17:21] I was late.
[1:17:21] She wasn't going to turn up.
[1:17:22] Her agent, who is also a good friend of ours now, forced her to go.
[1:17:27] And I remember I was... Was there any sense from Matt Moran of potentially a setup?
[1:17:34] Well, it's a weird thing because he made out, oh, you've got to meet her.
[1:17:40] She's super talented and she's beautiful and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[1:17:43] I was like, thanks, Matt.
[1:17:44] This is good.
[1:17:45] But then he also said to Asher, be careful of him.
[1:17:51] I'm like, you, what the fuck is that?
[1:17:54] Anyway, thanks Matt, godfather of my children.
[1:17:57] You lose, I win.
[1:18:00] But I wasn't thinking about that.
[1:18:02] I was thinking about, did I forget to pack Luca's lunch?
[1:18:06] And then my studio was a mess and I threw everything in two bins and I'm wheeling them out and I look like shit.
[1:18:12] And I saw her, I literally dropped the bins and she slept with me that night.
[1:18:17] No, she said, don't say that joke because it's not true.
[1:18:19] And it could be cut into a...
[1:18:22] But we just, again, that was another time I painted like a demon because I wanted to impress it so badly.
[1:18:29] I think I did the painting in two hours.
[1:18:31] I was like, it was like a robot.
[1:18:34] Worked.
[1:18:35] Sucked in.
[1:18:36] So you spend that time with her and you're painting with her in the room, I'm assuming?
[1:18:41] Yeah.
[1:18:42] No, I did prolong the period of- Hanging out.
[1:18:46] Hanging out.
[1:18:47] And it's really weird because I have our first meeting all on video and camera.
[1:18:53] Wow.
[1:18:55] And I remember that whole series, I was asking people what inspires them and kind of talking about them.
[1:19:01] And I just remember just staring at it going, just this engagement that I'd never felt before.
[1:19:09] And we worked together since then.
[1:19:11] That was it.
[1:19:12] And she's amazing.
[1:19:14] And I feel very lucky.
[1:19:16] She stepped into being a stepmother and all sorts of things.
[1:19:20] You know, entertaining but complicated.
[1:19:24] And so was she.
[1:19:25] And, you know, interestingly, she grew up Bayside and very different experience, but we're so like-minded.
[1:19:34] And that also helped me...
[1:19:37] you know, I grew up and it was them and us all the time, rich, poor.
[1:19:42] And it doesn't matter where you grow up or where you're from or what you believe, you can be so like-minded and be in love and all those things.
[1:19:51] That was a cool learning.
[1:19:53] Also, she's increased my vocabulary by correcting me often and giving me new words.
[1:19:59] Yeah.
[1:20:01] Nice bonus.
[1:20:02] Yeah, yeah.
[1:20:03] How has she?
[1:20:03] I mean, I imagine she does help quite a lot with your dyslexia.
[1:20:08] Because I know that she helps with like this general admin of running your empire.
[1:20:12] She's fired herself several times as my PA.
[1:20:15] But this is a normal day for me.
[1:20:18] So I am flying to Sydney to do something for the night.
[1:20:22] I drive myself to the airport, get on the plane, do my thing in Sydney, drive back, forget I parked the car in the airport.
[1:20:31] catch an Uber home, realize my car's not in the driveway, go back to the airport, realize my keys are in Sydney in a jacket I left there.
[1:20:41] And this kind of stuff is daily.
[1:20:43] I forget everyone's name.
[1:20:44] I know everyone says this, but it's a next level of not knowing.
[1:20:49] I don't know the alphabet, don't know the months of the year, don't know my kids' dates of birth, don't know half my relatives' names.
[1:20:56] I miss everything.
[1:20:57] I'm always like, I just completely
[1:21:01] And people think you're absent-minded and I'm the opposite.
[1:21:04] It kills me.
[1:21:06] I feel so embarrassed and so disappointed with myself.
[1:21:09] This is a hard thing daily to deal with.
[1:21:12] And I feel like I offend people.
[1:21:13] And I wrote my book and I forgot to mention some of my good mates in the book, not because they weren't such a big part of my life.
[1:21:24] And then they read the book and I could see that I hurt their feelings.
[1:21:29] That hurt me so bad because they're so important.
[1:21:32] And this is, I know everyone says, oh, you can't include everyone.
[1:21:35] No, this is just like, I went from that story to that story.
[1:21:39] And the stuff I wanted to talk about today and I've forgotten about it.
[1:21:42] And, you know, it's...
[1:21:44] It just kills me.
[1:21:46] It's the one thing that I hate to disappoint people I care about.
[1:21:49] And for the people that have the same condition as me, for the people around them, it's almost like we need a T-shirt.
[1:21:57] Like, I'm sorry, I'm going to forget shit.
[1:22:01] But I feel for the partners, but even more so for those people because...
[1:22:07] Once I felt stupid, now I feel like I'm letting people down.
[1:22:09] You know, that's something that's hard to deal with.
[1:22:12] Yeah.
[1:22:13] Is it hard to allow yourself some compassion, like, there?
[1:22:19] Because I have a lot of good in my life, I feel like I can't create one more thing with an excuse for why I'm doing it.
[1:22:28] People say, get a diary.
[1:22:29] You forget the diary.
[1:22:30] Put your keys in one place every day.
[1:22:32] Forgot that.
[1:22:33] That place, yeah.
[1:22:35] Yeah.
[1:22:36] get an Apple blah, blah, blah, and then the battery goes flat because you forget to – like it just doesn't stop.
[1:22:41] Like it's very difficult, but I would say it's, you know, at least it's entertaining somewhat.
[1:22:48] It is.
[1:22:49] It reminds me of like – so my partner, Jam, she has ADHD, and she sort of – she lives like phone-wise, she lives on 3%.
[1:22:58] You know, it's like as far as battery goes.
[1:22:59] She's like it's always –
[1:23:01] Phone's about to die all the time.
[1:23:02] And so years ago, early days, before we knew she had ADHD.
[1:23:06] But I noticed this.
[1:23:07] And so as a present, I got her like an extra phone battery.
[1:23:12] She lost that and forgot to charge it.
[1:23:14] Forgot to charge that.
[1:23:14] And so I was like, got it for her.
[1:23:16] I said, oh, your phone's run out.
[1:23:17] Just use the thing.
[1:23:18] She's like, well, I haven't charged that either.
[1:23:20] So I was like, oh shit, what are we doing?
[1:23:22] And it's so hard because it comes so naturally to you and to Asher is so organised.
[1:23:27] Another thing for parents or partners with someone that's neurodivisal, it's a fucking hard word as well, is...
[1:23:36] Don't try and improve what they're never going to be good at because that crushes their confidence, especially kids.
[1:23:42] Like if it's writing, that's a problem.
[1:23:44] They won't ever be good at that.
[1:23:45] Doesn't mean they can't write a book.
[1:23:47] I did.
[1:23:47] You just have to find a different way.
[1:23:49] Take the pressure off and find the good stuff.
[1:23:52] You know, if it's sports, let them concentrate on sport.
[1:23:55] You know, if it's music, throw the music.
[1:23:57] You only have to be good at a couple of things in life and people forgive you for the rest.
[1:24:02] Yeah.
[1:24:03] Good advice.
[1:24:03] Yeah.
[1:24:04] Well, it's been so an extraordinary – it feels like an extraordinary privilege to have spent time with you.
[1:24:10] I was saying, yeah.
[1:24:11] I feel like such a – as we were half of this conversation, I found myself just thinking, I cannot believe we get to speak to someone like this.
[1:24:19] See the Asher special?
[1:24:21] No.
[1:24:22] A lot of messages to Asher.
[1:24:23] No, no, yeah, yeah.
[1:24:26] I just like to get her – like I like –
[1:24:28] She would say, what did you do?
[1:24:30] And that's just fun.
[1:24:30] I like to tease a little.
[1:24:32] I like to tease a lot actually.
[1:24:33] I put, because I had to do lunches to, you know, I don't normally do the lunches for school.
[1:24:39] And one, I forgot the lunch at home and Val called me and I had to bring the lunch in just before recess.
[1:24:46] He's like, dad, I see the school's number.
[1:24:48] I thought he's broken his head.
[1:24:50] He was just saying, you forgot lunch and brain food.
[1:24:52] That's the recess.
[1:24:54] And I'd put, as a joke, I'd put a raw onion in his fruit box.
[1:24:59] Just so when he sees it.
[1:25:00] I think that's what Tony Abbott does for his kids.
[1:25:04] And then I brought the lunch in and I noticed the woman at reception see the onion through the thing.
[1:25:10] And I forgot.
[1:25:11] I'm like, that's just a joke.
[1:25:12] I know there's an onion in there.
[1:25:16] that's why I have to a lot of jokes it has been an absolute honour and I felt this collective love for you the second we met you I really felt that so I feel like whilst it's amazing that Asher and you fell in love the first time we've also fallen in love with you today as well you know a few beers who knows laughter
[1:25:34] See what happens I feel so happy Being here If you ever want to Podcast We don't even have to record it We'll just like Just hang out Yeah Let's just hang out That sounds great Listen thank you for your time today It's been truly incredible Thanks Vincent There's no podcasters at boxing So you're all welcome Thank you Thank you Well I'll fight you for it There's no fighting either Let's I messed up the ending Okay Thank you for Thank you
[1:26:02] Thank you, Martina.
[1:26:04] Thank you.
[1:26:12] Well, huge thank you to Vincent Fantuzzo.
[1:26:15] What a lovely man.
[1:26:17] Such an experience.
[1:26:18] Those stories were like, obviously, never heard anything like it.
[1:26:23] I think what I would like to do at some point is get a list of all the guests we've ever had and just circle those who are neurodiverse.
[1:26:31] There's been...
[1:26:33] I feel like neurodiverse people really do some pretty extraordinary stuff.
[1:26:38] We've had so many neurodiverse people on here who just absolutely, I find so inspiring and he is absolutely one of them.
[1:26:44] Yeah.
[1:26:44] Oh, we desperately need neurodiverse people in the world.
[1:26:47] They're brilliant.
[1:26:48] He was so captivating as a person to be around.
[1:26:51] Like if you think about some of the people he's met, some of the people he's painted, I can just see it just makes sense.
[1:26:57] It's like I can see you doing that job and you having this really –
[1:27:03] unique and intimate relationship with the people that you paint.
[1:27:06] Just so I've never met anyone like him.
[1:27:08] Yeah.
[1:27:08] He's magnetic.
[1:27:09] Yeah.
[1:27:10] Yeah.
[1:27:11] There is something I wanted to talk about off the back of it, which I think it is a definitely a heavy topic, but I think one we should definitely be talking about right now.
[1:27:19] He mentioned twice throughout that episode, once as a boy and once as a teenager, writing a suicide note.
[1:27:29] And that topic of suicide has just come up quite a bit this year.
[1:27:37] The thing that I speak of here is the really tragic passings of both the Selwood twins.
[1:27:44] The footballers, yeah.
[1:27:45] And Troy Selwood and then back, I think it was in May, his twin brother a couple months later, Adam Selwood as well.
[1:27:53] And it's just...
[1:27:54] I actually remember looking at the photo of the Selwood family at Troy's funeral.
[1:28:00] And I remember just looking at Adam and thinking, I can't even begin to imagine what he is going through.
[1:28:05] I mean, the whole family, for some reason, was quite captivated by his twin.
[1:28:09] And then to have this happen a few months ago, it's just so devastating.
[1:28:14] And I just wanted to talk a bit about...
[1:28:16] A lot of people reach out to me around that time asking what do you think we should be doing or what should men be doing?
[1:28:22] And what I've heard a lot of, I don't disagree with.
[1:28:25] I've heard a lot of people saying if something doesn't feel right, go and see a doctor, go and see a GP, about going to see a psychologist.
[1:28:30] And I don't disagree with that.
[1:28:31] But I do feel like it's just a stretch.
[1:28:34] It's a really big stretch for people.
[1:28:37] And I'm speaking about men here because we had Vincent and also the Selwood twins.
[1:28:45] I can also add some weight to that.
[1:28:48] I've been recently doing some work with a group called Breakthrough in South Australia who are very much in this space.
[1:28:54] And I was reading stats that it's the number one cause of death for people between age 25 and 44 in Australia.
[1:29:03] And there are nine people a day in Australia who die of suicide.
[1:29:07] And seven out of those nine are men.
[1:29:09] Okay.
[1:29:09] Yeah.
[1:29:10] Yeah.
[1:29:11] So, I mean, it's just, it's an awful statistic.
[1:29:15] And this is just some things I think for any men listening or anyone listening to this who is having these type of thoughts, it's just some things that I think you might be able to do, which aren't as hard as calling up and calling a doctor and sitting down with someone you don't know or your local GP who you do know and saying things aren't right and it's a psychologist.
[1:29:35] I just want to talk about the power of, call it whatever you want, writing stuff down, like journaling I'm probably talking about here, but even just getting a pen and paper and writing down what's in your head and getting it out of your head, I feel like that is the first step towards some type of heading in the right direction.
[1:29:54] I feel like
[1:29:57] you can grab a notepad, just a blank piece of paper, a journal, whatever you want, and just write down what you're thinking, write down how you feel.
[1:30:06] And no one has to see this.
[1:30:07] This is just getting it out of your head onto paper.
[1:30:09] It gives you a little bit of separation.
[1:30:10] It makes you feel like it's not totally – you can observe it a little bit more if that makes sense rather than this is who I am.
[1:30:18] But write it down.
[1:30:19] And once you've written it down, then have a think to yourself –
[1:30:24] Who is someone that I love and I trust that I could maybe share my thoughts and feelings with?
[1:30:29] I'll give the example of, it's a very poignant example, but it's an AFL footballer who I did a lot of work with a few years ago.
[1:30:36] And I have permission to share this story.
[1:30:39] Charlie Dixon, as some of you might remember, who played football for Port Adelaide Football Club, one of the biggest and scariest looking men ever.
[1:30:46] in the AFL and I remember I would fly across to Adelaide a fair bit to work at the Port Adelaide Football Club and Charlie and I would catch up a lot and he was dealing with a really severe depression.
[1:30:58] Like we're talking, he would sit in the car before training and just cry and then he would go to training and no one would know and then he'd get back in the car and he'd cry again.
[1:31:06] And I remember saying to him once over coffee, so who are you confiding in here?
[1:31:12] Which of your friends do you confide in?
[1:31:14] He said, I haven't told anyone.
[1:31:15] And I said, do you mind me asking him why not?
[1:31:18] And he said, well, my job is to be like very tough and very hard.
[1:31:21] So I don't want to show them that weakness.
[1:31:22] Yeah.
[1:31:23] And I said, if one of your teammates here said to you, I'm struggling with depression, would you think that's weak?
[1:31:30] And he said, I would think it's the very opposite.
[1:31:33] And he then committed soon after that to write a letter to his teammates to tell them about his depression and what he was going through.
[1:31:43] But also to thank them for the role they have played in getting him through depression.
[1:31:47] his darkest days.
[1:31:49] And I was in the room when he read that out.
[1:31:52] It took him about six months, but six months later, I was in the room when he read it out.
[1:31:56] And the response from that grew.
[1:32:00] I still have never seen anything like it.
[1:32:01] It was like there was –
[1:32:03] The cupboard booked a very small room for this thing to happen.
[1:32:05] So it was very tight quarters, but he was engulfed by 45 men all hugging him at the end.
[1:32:13] And he said to me weeks later, he said, that was the start of my recovery.
[1:32:17] That's when I started to recover.
[1:32:20] When I shared what was happening in my head with the people that love me, that's when my journey to recovery started.
[1:32:26] And so I'm not saying to anyone out there who's struggling, find a group of 45 men and stand up in front of them and read it out.
[1:32:33] But it did start for Charlie with getting it out of his head.
[1:32:36] That's where it started, getting it onto paper.
[1:32:38] And then the next step was who's someone that I can share it with.
[1:32:40] It turned out Charlie's blessed is in a situation with 45 workmates who all love him.
[1:32:47] And the other thing that happens there, when you do openly send a message to the world that you are not coping, you're not coping.
[1:32:53] like Charlie did, the world responds to that.
[1:32:57] The world will wrap its arm around you and will support you and give the support you need.
[1:33:01] And that's exactly what I saw happen to Charlie.
[1:33:03] And, yeah, to me it starts at getting it out of your head onto paper.
[1:33:09] It's, oh, that's, I love that story so much.
[1:33:13] It's, cause you really, cause even Josh, like those stats you said before, it makes you realize that, cause of course we all think, not always, but often we think we're the only ones struggling and you look around at everyone else at work or at school or whatever, and you think, well, everyone else seems like they've got their shit together and I'm, I feel like I'm the only one.
[1:33:33] So I don't want to be the odd one out.
[1:33:35] I want to, and I don't want to be judged.
[1:33:39] stats, particularly with men, you can almost assume that someone else is struggling, maybe not to the same extent, but maybe more.
[1:33:48] And, but you're definitely not alone.
[1:33:51] And those stats kind of suggest that that's probably always true.
[1:33:55] Yeah.
[1:33:55] And it's only when you voice it and you say something, then it gives other people the opportunity to then say, oh yeah, I, I also, I'm the same.
[1:34:06] Having that kind of courage to be the first one, like to be the Charlie Dixon of the group, that takes courage.
[1:34:12] But God, what can happen afterwards is life changing.
[1:34:17] Yeah.
[1:34:18] I think it's also important to acknowledge, at least I know this for me personally, when I've been not doing very well, I kind of don't want to tell people.
[1:34:27] Don't want to tell people.
[1:34:28] It's very isolating.
[1:34:29] And you kind of, I think Em's talked about this and we can put a link to the episode in which she does talk about this in the show notes, but how you want to withdraw from society, withdraw from talking to people in general.
[1:34:46] So I totally understand that how hard it can be to share this with anyone.
[1:34:50] That's why I think writing is such a great idea to be writing it down because that's something you can do while you're withdrawn.
[1:34:55] And then maybe that will spark the idea to or the motivation to perhaps share it.
[1:35:00] But when I've been going through stuff in the past, it's really hard.
[1:35:05] I've felt...
[1:35:07] And in a low mood to the point of quite seriously low mood, I felt the need to regress and pull away from people and not speak to them.
[1:35:16] But if I think of all the things I've done to get out of that situation, having a genuine connection with another human being...
[1:35:24] Even if it's not, it doesn't have to be sitting down and talking through all the things you've gone through and what you're thinking because your friend is probably not qualified to have that discussion.
[1:35:33] But just acknowledging what you're going through and then being able to connect with that person on a level that you don't feel like you're hiding anymore for me is the single most important thing to turn back on.
[1:35:45] start turning things around.
[1:35:47] And I just think that we, I guess I just want people listening to know that like the dark and worst time that you're going through, this awful feeling doesn't have to define you.
[1:36:02] Like there is so much hope there that can come from just a very simple connection with another person.
[1:36:07] And it's not going to be fixed in the first conversation, but it could be the first step to, to making you thrive in life again.
[1:36:15] Well said.
[1:36:16] Well said.
[1:36:17] Anyway, I'm so grateful for Vincent for sharing those stories because I'm sure it wasn't easy, but he did it.
[1:36:22] And I feel like it's going to help a lot of people.
[1:36:26] Absolutely.
[1:36:27] Yeah.
[1:36:28] Great, well thank you Vincent Good to see you guys Yeah, absolutely See you next time See you next time On the Imperfects Remember all the episodes We'll link too Yes, yeah, yeah Because it's a fantastic podcast Yeah, wonderful Yeah, they're all 200 There's not a dud There is a couple I disagree I disagree I disagree I'm going all in On 100% perfection Ironically See you guys Thanks everyone
[1:36:58] If you enjoyed this episode, you'll love The Vulnerability Mail.
[1:37:01] It's a weekly newsletter that helps you remain imperfect.
[1:37:03] Each week, we'll send you one vulnerable question inspired by the current episode to help you unpack your own imperfect life.

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