# Joe Williams - Concussion, Bipolar & Being a Dad

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 27 Jul 2025, 1 h 24 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/c0azkl45g7xegh5dhnqctgjm.mp3

Approached by 5 NRL clubs by the time he was 13, Joe was a sporting prodigy. 💌 subscribe to our newsletter, my imperfect email, here - http://bit.ly/4lMOdTj Thrust into the spotlight Joe was introduced to a world of concussions, accolades and copious amounts of drugs and alcohol. Now 18 years sober, Joe is honest about how he found his power through truth and the experiences and learnings through which he navigates racism and understands human behaviour. Joe chats to Josh about the difference between being a dad and a father, and how he has found compassion for his younger self. This conversation also touches on Joe’s bipolar diagnosis, his relationship with the natural environment and the incredible difference that he is making in the mental health space now. Joe, we can’t believe you found the time to join us. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. If you’d like to watch this full video on YouTube, click here: 📖 Things to read: • Defying The Enemy Within by Joe Williams - https://bit.ly/4eY3cr0 • What Happened To You by Bruce D. Perry and Oprah Winfrey - https://bit.ly/4lYzl4F • The Dreaming Path by Paul Callaghan with Uncle Paul Gordon - https://bit.ly/3ICXbEd 📺Things to watch: • Seen The Film - https://seenthefilm.com 💻Things to check out: • Our Way Academy - https://bit.ly/4lGt4uf 🚨If you, or someone you know, is struggling with suicidal ideation, thinking about suicide, or has issues with addiction, please call 000 in an emergency. Lifeline on 13 11 14 is also great resource, as well as the National Alcohol and Other Drug Hotline on 1800 250 015. 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase the Vulnerabilitea House Cards here - https://bit.ly/3Cx4tGP 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - https://bit.ly/3Cx4tGP 🩵To join our patreon community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - patreon.com/theimperfects 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts too, here apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

## Transcript

[0:00] You know, we know that concussions aren't fantastic for the head and might happen at a young age, you know, and I used copious amounts of alcohol and drugs every weekend to try and run away from what was going on inside my head.
[0:16] We're all imperfect, and on this podcast, I'll be chatting with a variety of interesting people who are willing to make themselves vulnerable by sharing their own struggles and imperfections.
[0:26] I'm Hugh Van Kylenberg from The Resilience Project.
[0:29] And I'm Ryan Shelton from My Mum.
[0:31] And I'm Josh from Hugh's Mum.
[0:33] And this is The Imperfects.
[0:36] I feel like a cup of joe.
[0:41] Well, you're in luck.
[0:42] Yeah?
[0:42] Yeah, you're in luck.
[0:43] A cup of Joey Williams you'll be getting today.
[0:45] Oh, delicious.
[0:46] Whereas he has probably been called more times than Joey.
[0:49] I feel like Joey Williams just, as a sports person, he's lived many different lives, this incredible man.
[0:54] Yeah, he sure has.
[0:55] He would have been referenced.
[0:56] He would have been called Joey Williams a lot, I reckon.
[0:58] Okay, Joey Williams.
[0:59] What do you reckon?
[0:59] Let's stick with Joe for today, though.
[1:01] Okay.
[1:02] Just to validate my cup of Joe, just so we don't have to delete my cup of Joe gag.
[1:05] Okay.
[1:06] Yeah, we'll keep it in.
[1:06] Yeah.
[1:07] It was a strong start.
[1:08] Oh, wasn't it?
[1:09] Yeah.
[1:09] Yeah.
[1:10] Clip it up, George.
[1:12] Joe Williams, he has done so much in his time on the earth.
[1:18] He has, well, by the age of 13, he has been courted by five different NRL football clubs all in year seven.
[1:26] Can you imagine?
[1:27] I mean, like...
[1:28] Yeah, I remember my days at Auskick and I was not getting the attention I thought I deserved from the AFL players at the clinic, but Joe sure was.
[1:38] Yeah, he was.
[1:39] He then, after that, went on to become a boxer, won some belts along the way.
[1:45] So you'll hear in the bio coming up that he has lived many different lives as an elite sports person and an advocate in the mental health space.
[1:51] doing really extraordinary work.
[1:53] I think the things in this episode that really stood out to me were his reflections on racism in this country, and it is quite confronting to listen to, but so important that we listen to it.
[2:06] His struggles with substance abuse as an elite sports person, which are really just him trying to work out who he really was.
[2:12] Yeah.
[2:14] Um, he also talks about, he struggles with bipolar, a topic that we haven't really discussed in this podcast before, which I think is a really important one as well.
[2:21] Uh, and then he talks about looking at racism through his kids experience of the world.
[2:29] So trying to explain it to his kids and trying to make sense of racism with his kids as well, which I think was a really, um, it was kind of heartbreaking to listen to, but again, really important that we do.
[2:39] Do you know when I called a couple of people who I know just through the NRL, just in researching Joe to try to ask questions about it, and one of the guys I called was a lovely man called Peter Robinson.
[2:49] Have you heard Peter Robinson from the Melbourne Storm?
[2:51] Yeah.
[2:53] Yes, I have.
[2:53] Robbo.
[2:54] Robbo.
[2:54] Yeah, I know Robbo.
[2:55] How do you know that?
[2:56] Oh, I just assume his nickname is Robbo.
[2:58] Well, it was.
[2:58] I mean, it is.
[2:59] It still is.
[3:00] Yeah, Robbo.
[3:02] Robbo told me...
[3:04] So I was asking what he was like and he said, oh, I've only met him a couple of times.
[3:07] And then he said this, interested to know if you guys know what this means.
[3:09] I pretended I knew.
[3:10] Yeah.
[3:11] He said, well, I can throw hands though.
[3:14] Oh, boxing?
[3:15] Oh, okay.
[3:15] There you go.
[3:16] I had no idea.
[3:17] What have you known?
[3:20] Yeah.
[3:21] If he wasn't a boxer, if Joe wasn't a boxer, I might not have gotten to it that quickly.
[3:26] Okay.
[3:27] Robbo said to me, I don't know him that well.
[3:29] I met him a couple of times, but gosh, he can throw hands.
[3:31] Yeah.
[3:32] And so I just went along with him and went, oh, yeah, don't worry about that.
[3:35] Yeah.
[3:35] You can.
[3:36] Are you imagining like an event at the Olympics that you've never seen?
[3:38] Like one that eventually got banned?
[3:42] Oh, yeah, they did hand throwing for about 50 years.
[3:45] In the 50s, they got rid of it.
[3:47] It was just too gruesome.
[3:50] Yeah.
[3:50] He said, do you throw hands?
[3:51] And I said, yeah, I bet.
[3:53] No, there's no question.
[3:54] And he said, have you seen it?
[3:56] And I just said, yes.
[3:57] Yeah.
[3:58] Oh, yeah.
[3:59] Yeah.
[3:59] Well, Hugh, tell me what you think throwing hands is then, mate.
[4:04] Luckily, I didn't get any further questions than that.
[4:06] Okay.
[4:07] But I did very much pretend to go along with.
[4:09] With throwing hands.
[4:10] Sometimes I just, I don't know, sometimes I find myself in a situation where like, I shouldn't be pretending here, but I'm just going to.
[4:16] Yeah.
[4:16] Oh, every time I get my car serviced.
[4:20] Every single time.
[4:22] Now, Ryan, it's probably about time we change the tube sockets.
[4:27] Yep.
[4:29] I would definitely agree with that.
[4:30] It's going to be $800.
[4:32] Is it?
[4:32] Is it?
[4:33] Is it?
[4:33] When did we last change tube sockets?
[4:34] About four years ago, I reckon now, mate.
[4:36] Has it been four years?
[4:37] Jeez, definitely change those tube sockets then.
[4:41] I don't know why I care so much that I'm looking like a fool in front of the mechanic.
[4:45] Do you change the way you talk to a mechanic?
[4:47] Mate, yeah.
[4:50] Do I what?
[4:52] Yeah.
[4:52] I'd definitely do it at a hardware store.
[4:54] Can I hear it?
[4:55] Can I?
[4:56] I'll be, I'll work at Bunnings or something.
[4:58] I'll work at.
[4:59] G'day, mate.
[5:00] Can I go up here?
[5:01] You all good over there?
[5:02] Yeah, mate.
[5:02] Just after some timber.
[5:04] Yeah.
[5:04] What length, mate?
[5:05] Yeah.
[5:06] Oh, look.
[5:06] 70 by 90s would probably do.
[5:08] 70 by 90s.
[5:08] Sounds exactly the same.
[5:11] You reckon we both sound exactly the same?
[5:12] No, Josh sounds exactly the same as he usually does.
[5:14] Yeah.
[5:15] 70 by 90s is not a measurement, by the way, either.
[5:18] 70 by 90s.
[5:19] A couple of 70 by 90s.
[5:20] Josh panicking that he's going to get found out.
[5:23] Just so you know, I know that 70s.
[5:24] It's not a timber measurement.
[5:27] Oh, there's a laptop server on.
[5:29] Yeah.
[5:30] Anyway, so let's get into this conversation with Joe.
[5:33] He is...
[5:35] Yeah, he's so fascinating and I feel like the more time we spend chatting with people like Joe, the better we will be because he gives such an insightful reflection on his journey and his life, one with which we could all benefit from understanding.
[5:53] Totally.
[5:54] Joe Williams.
[5:56] Joe Joey Williams.
[5:58] Joe Joey Williams.
[6:09] If the pre-chat, the pre-interview chat with the microphones off is anything to go by.
[6:15] We're in for a beauty here.
[6:16] We are joined by Joe Williams, who I've got a whole list of stuff here.
[6:20] You've done so much stuff.
[6:21] The fact you've found time to be here today is we really appreciate it.
[6:24] Thank you.
[6:24] You're a very busy man.
[6:26] I'm lucky.
[6:26] I always joke with people and say that I've lived enough for about three or four people.
[6:32] Well, let me actually just fill in the gaps there for people if you don't know.
[6:35] But Joe is a former National Rugby League footballer, having played at South Sydney, Penrith and Canterbury.
[6:42] By the age of 13, you had five NRL clubs asking to come down to the club, which is quite extraordinary.
[6:48] That is crazy.
[6:50] That's amazing, isn't it?
[6:51] In Year 7.
[6:51] In Year 7.
[6:53] That makes it sound even crazier.
[6:54] Yeah.
[6:56] In 2009, Joe switched to a professional boxing career and as a boxer, you twice won the World Boxing Junior Welterweight Championship.
[7:04] Then in 2014, Joe founded the organization, The Enemy Within, which is basically a mental health organization doing incredible work.
[7:13] Joe then went on to establish Our Way Academy, which works alongside schools to create environments which First Nations kids have a chance to build healthy relationships, explore their
[7:23] and contribute to their school and family in a meaningful and enriching way.
[7:26] And I've just heard extraordinary things about that.
[7:29] In 2017, Joe was named as a finalist for the Courage Awards in the National Indigenous Human Rights Awards.
[7:34] In 2018, Joe was awarded the Suicide Prevention Australia Life Award for his work in suicide awareness and prevention.
[7:41] In 2019, Joe is a co-winner of the National Mental Health Prize.
[7:45] If that's not enough, Joe is an adjunct associate professor at the School of Psychology in the University of Queensland.
[7:50] Joe is a proud Wiradjuri First Nations Aboriginal man.
[7:55] Welcome.
[7:57] Jeez, that's pretty good.
[7:58] That's one of the more impressive intros we've had, I'd say.
[8:01] Yeah, look, I also get, I guess I get a little bit embarrassed because it's who I am or it's things that are who I've done, but it's also very much who I was.
[8:12] You know, a lot of it isn't who I am.
[8:14] Yeah.
[8:15] You know, there's different parts of our life, who we are, and we all go through this, you know, getting different parts of life.
[8:20] who we become.
[8:21] But, um, I'm certainly somebody right now who's on a path that I never, ever, ever imagined that I would have been on.
[8:30] Um, and I think I always refer to, you know, something that's, that, that sits with me a lot is that the two most important days of your life are the day you're born and the day you find out why you're born.
[8:42] For me, I had to go through some stuff, um, to find out, I guess, why I'm here.
[8:48] and we'll definitely get into that.
[8:49] And I think identity will form a pretty big theme around this conversation.
[8:53] And so I just want to ask you, you said just before the mic turned on, ask me anything, which is great for interviewers to be given a green light.
[9:00] But I've been a bit unsure recently around the wording when you say Aboriginal man or Indigenous man, is there one that you would prefer or one that makes you feel more comfortable?
[9:10] Because I have been told that we should be saying Indigenous.
[9:12] Is that...
[9:13] I'm okay with everything, you know, because people are doing their way or doing their best to navigate this way to build this relationship, you know, and some people call it reconciling or reconciliation.
[9:27] I don't even use that term.
[9:29] I don't even use that word because to reconcile is to heal a broken relationship.
[9:33] And if I'm brutally honest, we haven't had a relationship with each other for 250-odd years.
[9:39] It's just been a one-way street where nobody has learned about us.
[9:44] we can honestly say now that we're beginning to, and it's uncomfortable, that stuff, super uncomfortable, because the truth of this place isn't pretty, of how we all got to where we are now, particularly around behaviour.
[10:03] You know, the behaviour of who we are as all individuals is shaped in the very early years of our lives and what we see and what we learn, right?
[10:14] Now for a hell of a long time, the behaviors that have been modeled in our community are ones out of pain, discomfort, and hurt.
[10:21] And a lot of the time, those behaviors, when you think about relationships or even instances in your life, if you can think of a relationship or a behavior associated with pain, hurt, or discomfort, it's not particularly a positive relationship a lot of the time.
[10:37] Who we are for 200 years has been a people that have done their best to find our way back home.
[10:45] Is there anything that people can do when you're chatting to someone, you meet someone, that someone can do or say that just makes you feel loved and seen for your experience and your people's experience?
[11:00] I don't know if that question makes sense, but I just feel like what's something that people can do to express...
[11:06] their kind of love for what you've been through, what your people have been through?
[11:10] I think compassion is a big one.
[11:11] Like compassion and just understanding that, you know, my life and the work that I've come to with the work that I do now has been about just observing, being so intrigued with human behavior where I go, why is it that Hugh sits there and I'm super observant, why is it that Hugh sits there and scratches his hand with one finger and not the other?
[11:36] There is a reason why he sits there actually.
[11:38] I'm someone who is just super intrigued with human behaviour and when you understand where behaviour comes from and you understand the story, you just need to show people compassion.
[11:49] But, you know, we all, who we are, we are all shaped by the early experiences that we all have.
[11:58] And in the early days of my life, I have a non-Indigenous person who treats me
[12:06] disrespectfully and I observe that and I observe that with my parents, right?
[12:12] If I observe somebody disrespecting my parents, watching me like a hawk in the shopping center, then that shapes my entire relationships with people that look like that for my entire life until I begin to unlearn it.
[12:28] Yeah, makes sense.
[12:29] That's all of us, right?
[12:30] So if you're someone who's been taught and told that the dark people of this country are bad and violent and no good with alcohol and all of those different things, then you have to start to unlearn that and start to understand why people are the way they are.
[12:45] Even if you're not told that specifically, it's like watching it in people, whether it be your parents and seeing your parents behave like that, then it seeps in.
[12:54] It's the nonverbal cues that we all pick up as babies.
[12:59] You know, how we all have relationships, how we are treated, how my parents are treated, how they treat other people shapes everything that I do.
[13:08] I'd love to talk about the things that shape you then.
[13:10] I mean, as a kid, we mentioned that you're obviously a prodigious sporting talent.
[13:15] At the age of 13, you've got five NRL clubs, you know, wanting you down at the club at the age of 13.
[13:22] I guess, how do you describe your childhood?
[13:24] I was just a kid that just loved footy.
[13:27] It sounds fantastic, you know, five NRL clubs chasing you at a really young age and all that sort of stuff.
[13:32] And, you know, I don't, I guess, hide that fact and I'm really grateful that it happened.
[13:37] But there was also some, I guess, some not so great markers that come with that as well, like the pressure from external people and then the talk and the chatter around.
[13:47] you know, from other parents and the jealousy with that sort of stuff.
[13:50] Do you mind going into that?
[13:52] I'd be really interested to hear about that specifically because that is, it must be for most prodigious kids in whatever area, I imagine that is sort of the dark side of the, all the glitzy, you know, like praise and everything you're getting and the attention.
[14:09] There must be a lot of pressure.
[14:10] So in terms of like the specific pressure or the comments that were being made, what was your experience with that?
[14:16] Mine was around racism with that.
[14:18] Because if you could play a little bit, the one thing that I guess parents or other players can try and bring you back down to earth in a moment would be to target you because of your colour.
[14:31] which I got a bit as a kid.
[14:34] My younger boy, actually, Ari, he was judged for not being dark enough.
[14:41] So then he come home with all this, does that mean I'm less Aboriginal than anyone else?
[14:46] The next time we have a cultural event, he's sort of sitting there going, I don't know if I want to do it today, Dad.
[14:52] I guess the first thing a young Aboriginal boy does is that, this is generally speaking, but a lot of what we do is we act out because it makes us so upset that we feel victimised, we feel attacked,
[15:06] that the only thing that we can control is this anger that we've got going through our blood and our body just wants to explode.
[15:17] That's what a lot of people do.
[15:19] Now, I was one of probably one or two Aboriginal kids that was at the school that I was at and racially vilified and called the names.
[15:30] I won't go into the names here, but
[15:32] Um, and then when you explode and you start throwing your hands and then you get in trouble for the violence that you're showing.
[15:42] Um, I was really lucky that, that my mom had my back with that sort of stuff.
[15:46] Um, and mom was up and she, you know, she had my back when it come to the school principal stuff, got suspended, all that.
[15:52] I went home.
[15:52] It was time to face dad.
[15:53] Dad said, what happened?
[15:54] And I said, I had a fight.
[15:55] And he goes, yeah, I heard.
[15:57] And he goes, what happened?
[15:58] I said, I got suspended.
[16:00] Kid called me a black da-da-da-da-da.
[16:03] And he said, I want to ask you a question.
[16:10] And I also understand that not a lot of people may agree with this or not a lot of people will be able to respond in this way.
[16:18] But my dad's enemy goes, what colour are you?
[16:20] And I said,
[16:22] Black, he said, oh, so you belted a kid for telling the truth.
[16:24] He said, be upset with what he called you after that word, but never be upset that he actually called you black.
[16:32] He said, the only way you'll ever beat racism isn't with your fists.
[16:36] He said, you'll only ever beat racism with intelligence and facts.
[16:42] So from that day, I just learnt so much about history and learnt so much about the truth of this country.
[16:51] So then whenever I am encountered with racism, my response to that is through truth and through intelligence rather than throwing my hands.
[17:05] What age is this, Joe?
[17:07] That was in that situation, yeah.
[17:11] It seems like a lot of it is to do with power as well.
[17:15] Racism always is about power.
[17:18] And therefore, I imagine, as you were saying, the acting out or, and in your case, fighting.
[17:24] Taking your power back.
[17:24] That's taking power back.
[17:26] At least you can control that.
[17:28] But then as your dad so brilliantly put, that's an intelligence and being proud of who you are is another form of power, isn't it?
[17:39] Yeah, it is.
[17:40] I think intelligence in those moments, because they're trying to make you feel inferior.
[17:45] Because that's what it is, right?
[17:46] I always, when I talk about race, I talk about, it's about making somebody feel inferior.
[17:54] Again, other people can, you know, agree, disagree with that sort of stuff.
[17:57] But I think about, I think back to this, right?
[18:00] Is that the very first people who got off the boats, generally speaking,
[18:04] looked at the colored people on the land that were there for thousands of years before they even turned up, thought those people are worthless.
[18:12] They mean nothing.
[18:13] They know nothing.
[18:15] And we are far much more superior than them.
[18:17] That's what white supremacy is, right?
[18:19] We are so much more superior than what they are.
[18:23] And they told their kids that or their kids observed that, going back to the behaviour thing that we were speaking about earlier.
[18:28] Their kids observed those type of behaviours and then they taught their kids that.
[18:34] And all of a sudden, five, six generations down the line, here we are today, right?
[18:39] So I understand that why people still feel superior to coloured people is because that's all they've been taught and all they've known
[18:53] the entire existence...
[18:55] of their families being here on this country since they first stepped off the boats.
[19:01] Right.
[19:02] The only way we take that power back is by teaching them the truth that everything that happened back then was out of a place of, you know, superior mindset and thinking, feeling that they believe that they were better than and the natives knew nothing.
[19:18] Like how different our conversation would be today as a country, as a nation, how different our conversation would be,
[19:26] If they got off the boat and said, holy smokes, these people have been here for at least 100,000 years in the same harsh, barren climates that we're seeing now.
[19:37] January.
[19:37] January, they got off January 26th.
[19:39] Like, would have been hot, surely.
[19:42] Yeah, yeah.
[19:43] Right?
[19:43] Yeah.
[19:44] If they got off the boat and said, holy smokes, we can learn some of these people.
[19:49] But they didn't.
[19:50] They got off the boat and said, these people know nothing.
[19:52] They're less than us.
[19:54] The superior mindset from that.
[19:57] And then that is taught down generationally.
[20:00] And here we are today to a point where in my lifetime, we didn't even learn about the true history of this country.
[20:09] On to your story.
[20:11] You said before from that moment you thought, I'm going to learn about who I am.
[20:16] What's that journey look like and how does it start?
[20:18] In that moment, the biggest lesson I didn't learn was about history.
[20:22] The biggest lesson I learned was about, okay, next time this happens, I'm going to learn to regulate my emotions when this happens because we know that what they're trying to do is trying to assert dominance.
[20:32] What we know they're trying to do is they're trying to make themselves feel smarter than what I am.
[20:37] So that was the first thing and it hasn't been perfect.
[20:39] There are going to be people that listen to this and go, I know the Joe Williams that I grew up with wasn't that person.
[20:44] And he wasn't.
[20:45] We all go through life and we learn.
[20:48] So it was about, I guess, gradually learning things.
[20:54] When we look at January 26 or what's called Australia Day and then we look at the National Anthem, then I learn about the National Anthem and I go, you know what I mean?
[21:03] Like the National Anthem is –
[21:06] the original lyrics is a five verse song written about england so i go hang on a minute like no like you don't get taught that stuff okay so i'm going to learn about that you know it literally talks about people coming across the seas to live here and and you know call australia their home and then i go in my lifetime we sang god save the queen you know
[21:27] Wow.
[21:29] So like this is the stuff where people say that Joe is so divisive with things that he says and does.
[21:36] And I go, like that was all that, you know, back in 2000, I think it was 16, when the Australia Day Citizen of the Year thing back in Wagga.
[21:48] Again, when I didn't stand up for the anthem and then that sort of gained some national attention with what that was because I had,
[21:54] local council is trying to demand that I hand back the award.
[21:58] It was an opportunity to go like, why do you sing that song?
[22:02] You know, let's, let's have a look at, let's have a look at the identity of who we are as a country, right?
[22:07] Let's have a look at the identity of who we are as a person living in this country and do we really want to stand on that?
[22:14] We live in this country and we all love this country.
[22:19] Many of us love this country and this place that we call home, but the stark reality is and the facts are that it's safer for certain people and not the others.
[22:30] What does that do to your, as a teenager, your own mental health?
[22:34] It's something you've done, put so much work into now in your career, but I'm interested to know your mental health journey as a kid, as a teenager navigating racism, navigating the pressures of what must have seemed like it was going to happen.
[22:49] You were going to play rugby league footy.
[22:52] What was your mental health like as a teenager?
[22:55] I always talk about the three really significant things that happen around the same time.
[23:01] And I signed my first deal when I was in year seven, when I was 13 year old.
[23:05] First scholarship, it was a scholarship.
[23:08] My parents always said, you know, we're signing one year at a time.
[23:11] We're not going to lock you awake because we knew that clubs or they thought that clubs sign a kid for five years and they don't talk to him again.
[23:18] But mum and dad were really smart.
[23:20] They said, we don't care about anything.
[23:22] We don't care about money, none of that sort of stuff.
[23:23] What we care about the most is our boys' education.
[23:25] So the club who looks after our boys' education is going to get him.
[23:28] So in that moment, paid for my schooling pretty much.
[23:34] Every deal that I had throughout those years was about schooling.
[23:39] Wow.
[23:39] Yeah, which that was the one thing that happened.
[23:42] The other thing is that I had a massive, massive concussion at a really young age.
[23:46] Because you were playing against grown men, weren't you?
[23:48] Or like big, much bigger body.
[23:50] Yeah, I went from under 13s to under 18s.
[23:53] Whoa.
[23:53] And then I played my first first grade trial that off season as well.
[23:57] So I was 13, played in the under-18s competition, and then that off-season I played against what was the Newtown Jets in a men's competition, yeah.
[24:09] So I was 13 and I got to play with my dad.
[24:12] Wow.
[24:12] Yeah.
[24:13] And this concussion you spoke about before, that took place in one of those seasons or?
[24:19] Yeah.
[24:20] So in one of those seasons, around about the same time when I was, when I was, it was actually in a junior game, not in the senior game.
[24:27] Oh, right.
[24:27] But it's,
[24:29] If anyone's had a concussion, you'll understand exactly what I mean when I talk about the insecurity that concussions bring as people.
[24:37] Just started this conversation inside my head that just got louder and louder and louder and more constant and progressively got worse and started planning thoughts, plans and ideas to not be here anymore.
[24:49] So that conversation just got louder and louder and louder and more negatively and more.
[24:54] And let's just say a plan of thoughts, plans and ideas with every situation I had every single day, crossing roads, walking down streets, all sorts of stuff where the conversation or the idea of suicide –
[25:13] became louder and bigger and more entertaining.
[25:18] And the only way that I could escape it or silence it was to drink as much as I possibly could.
[25:24] And that was at a young age.
[25:26] And like you think about this, like young kids –
[25:30] troublesome, young teenage boys, you know, get on the drink, all that sort of stuff at parties.
[25:36] I was no different.
[25:37] It's just that I wasn't, I didn't like who it made me turn into.
[25:41] I didn't like the taste of it.
[25:42] I didn't like how it made me feel.
[25:44] It was the only thing that I could do to silence what was going on in my head.
[25:47] And that all started with the concussion.
[25:49] Well, I believe so.
[25:51] Yeah.
[25:51] The research we know around head knocks and concussion now and the impacts that it can have on a person's mental health is wide.
[25:59] You know, we know that concussions aren't fantastic for the head.
[26:03] Yeah.
[26:05] and might happen at a young age, you know, and I used alcohol.
[26:09] And then, you know, by the time I moved to Sydney, the bright lights of the city were on and, you know, I was down there chasing my dreams to be a footy player, playing in the lower grades in the NRL system, using copious amounts of alcohol and drugs.
[26:24] every weekend to try and run away from what was going on inside my head.
[26:29] Again, hated who it was, but you could disappear for days and people didn't know that you'd gone in the big city.
[26:36] And, you know, to that point, you know, there was some negative things that were going on that were impacting my footy life, impacting my personal life, you know, and then that was the time and the day that I –
[26:53] I guess after some serious conversations with myself and some people close to me, the days that I decided to walk away from a lifestyle of alcohol and drugs and started to walk the path of sobriety.
[27:07] So did you, a big part of footy culture, having been part of working with footy teams, especially in our old sides, and hearing the stories of what it used to be like,
[27:19] It blows my mind.
[27:19] Way back then.
[27:20] Yeah.
[27:22] Did you stop drinking and using drugs while you were playing professional footy?
[27:26] Was that during that career?
[27:27] Was that a hard thing to do?
[27:29] Yeah.
[27:29] Out of the 2005 season.
[27:30] So then I played 06, 07, 08 sober.
[27:33] Yeah.
[27:38] I just had enough.
[27:39] Like there's everything negative that was happening in my life, whether it be on the footy field, relationships, everything, everything negative that was happening in my life, there was one common theme and it was alcohol and drugs.
[27:51] And I thought to myself, maybe if I get rid of this stuff, I'm a chance.
[27:56] But I remember it was, we used to play in a touch footy carnival down at a little place called Yass out near Canberra.
[28:04] And it was always the weekend of January 26.
[28:08] And I grew up playing at that carnival.
[28:11] And then a friend of mine who was a partier, right, and he was a really good mate that we played touch footy with, and I said, where have you been?
[28:20] He goes, I just don't go out anymore, Joe.
[28:24] I was like, wow, really?
[28:25] And...
[28:27] And two years had gone past and I'd not noticed that he, you know.
[28:31] So it's just funny that we still sit on the same stools in the same bars telling the same shit stories.
[28:38] But...
[28:39] But, like, we had this conversation in the backseat of the car on the way down to Yass from Sydney.
[28:45] And then Yass was a party weekend always.
[28:50] And he was like, you know, there's no coincidence, Joe, that all the bad stuff that's happened in your life, like, there's...
[29:00] alcohol around it.
[29:01] And then I was like, like, I just didn't, I didn't give it that thought, but I always wanted, I always wanted to not drink.
[29:09] That made sense.
[29:11] It's just, but, but I'd never, I'd never seen anyone not do it.
[29:15] Wow.
[29:16] I said, I said to him, um, that's it.
[29:21] When I get back to Sydney,
[29:24] I'm going to quit drinking.
[29:26] I'm going to stop.
[29:28] And he said one of the most confronting things I've ever been said in my entire life.
[29:32] He said, why don't you stop now?
[29:39] And I was like, I've got to give it one more tilt.
[29:45] And then I went out that night and then the next day driving back in the car to Sydney, hung over as 25 men.
[29:49] Um,
[29:52] I went to the Rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous on that Monday.
[29:55] Wow.
[29:56] Yeah.
[29:56] Wow, that's incredible discipline.
[29:58] Nearly 20 years ago, man.
[29:59] Jeez.
[30:00] Yeah, and it hasn't always been sober from that first jump.
[30:05] I got sober and was –
[30:08] It was about 11 months, thereabouts, and, you know, things were going great.
[30:12] Like I was starting to get better with things on the footy field and all that sort of stuff and relationship and all that.
[30:19] And then I was like, oh, no, I can give it one more go and then had a bender for about a month and quickly realised that I didn't want to be that person and that was 18 years ago in December.
[30:33] Yeah, so it's –
[30:35] Yeah, it's been a journey.
[30:37] Like throughout that journey, I've had – obviously I've had deaths.
[30:40] I've had marriage separation, separations from my kids, challenging parts of my life, suicide attempts, all that sort of stuff, psych ward stays, all that, and I've never needed a drink.
[30:51] I've wanted to a stack load of times.
[30:53] I mean that is so unbelievably impressive.
[30:56] Yeah.
[30:58] It's probably like we think it's impressive because it's so normalised in Australia's culture where, you know,
[31:07] Alcohol is readily available yet documented as the worst drug problem Australia's got yet it's applauded and celebrated, you know?
[31:17] I think it's impressive because it was your coping strategy.
[31:20] And then when things were really tough down the line, you went, nah, that's not going to be my coping strategy now.
[31:25] I think, I think again, timing's, timing's important, Hugh, and also hindsight's important.
[31:31] I didn't know that that was a coping strategy.
[31:34] I only know after years of reflecting, going, oh, that's what I was doing then.
[31:38] And then getting sober, I go, all right, I've got to get my head into something else.
[31:43] Maybe that's the thing that's silencing what's going on in my head as well.
[31:46] But it was always about essentially dissociating from what was happening inside my head, really.
[31:52] And, unfortunately, that can be things like relationships and my eyes looking elsewhere and stuff like that, which is never great things.
[32:01] But it's about trying to unpick who you are authentically and start to live with that.
[32:10] But without a doubt, sobriety, getting sober saved my life.
[32:15] I'd be dead or locked up.
[32:17] I wasn't a violent drunk or anything like that, but I was a pest.
[32:22] I was the guy who didn't know when to go home because it was like the fear of missing out on things and stuff like that.
[32:34] One thing I'm most proud of is that my kids have never seen me do it.
[32:39] Yeah, amazing.
[32:41] Did anyone else, sounds like they did at the end, but did anyone else know what was going on in your head and that you were using, I mean, you probably didn't know you were using those two.
[32:50] I also, like you don't realise that, you know, I can't say as an 18-year-old now that I was using to silence what was happening.
[33:00] Like it's 20-odd years down the track I go, wow, that's exactly what I was doing.
[33:06] Like I was just fitting in.
[33:09] The conversations around mental health weren't anywhere near what they're like now.
[33:13] Yeah.
[33:14] Like 20 years ago in a male-dominated sport where the tough guys get to the top.
[33:22] I didn't want to show any type of what I thought vulnerability by saying that I've got a voice inside my head telling me to die.
[33:29] You know, I'm trying to make the team every week.
[33:32] Yeah.
[33:32] You know, so there's challenges with that.
[33:34] Must have been very lonely.
[33:37] One lonely, but here's the other thing.
[33:39] You don't talk about it to anyone because no one else knew about it because I also thought I had the understanding that if I'm going through this, maybe everyone goes through this.
[33:49] But is there any part of you that thought, because I can imagine if anyone was getting this sort of like
[33:59] external praise that you would have been getting in terms of your footy.
[34:04] Even now, I think people definitely, as adults, if things are going generally well for you in life, it's hard for people to speak up and talk about their inner demons because they don't want to seem like whinging, like they're whingers or they're ungrateful for this great opportunity.
[34:20] I think there was a point in time where it was about being scared to talk about it because of what we thought was this thing called stigma and it was forbidden to talk about it.
[34:31] So I think that there was very much a timeframe where that was the case.
[34:36] I don't think it's the case now.
[34:37] I think subconsciously we –
[34:40] we are almost wired to not talk about it because of the early interactions we have as kids.
[34:47] We're always told to shut up when we're crying.
[34:50] Stop sookin'.
[34:53] I know communities that the old, don't cry or I'll give you something to cry for, sort of thing, those type conversations, I know those conversations.
[35:06] You know, subconsciously we start to go, when that comes up for us, I can't do that now.
[35:11] Yeah.
[35:13] I can't share this because for the last 10 times I've been told to shut up crying.
[35:17] The last 10 times, like I've been whinging.
[35:20] For the last 10 times, I've just been a little sook.
[35:23] And then as 13, 14, 15, 16-year-old kids, we go and get on the piss with our mates.
[35:30] And then we start talking to our mates about it.
[35:33] And then our parents go, but why don't they feel comfortable talking to me about it?
[35:38] Yeah.
[35:40] But they don't know what they actually did for the last 10, 15 years.
[35:45] Because it was a subconscious trait that they took on from the way that they were parented.
[35:50] So they didn't have their feelings validated, one.
[35:53] So the uncomfortable feelings in those moments is not about my little one actually crying.
[36:01] It's about...
[36:02] me not being able to cry when I wanted to cry,
[36:06] And that triggers me.
[36:08] Like if you think you've got nothing to be triggered about, go and have kids.
[36:13] Do you think like obviously for you, Joe, like obviously you've like done so much work on yourself and you're like a different person than you probably were, you know, when you're a teenager, as we all are.
[36:23] But I think do you reckon like in terms of what you're talking about there with like parents and how they interact with kids, particularly around like vulnerability and like being okay to like express your feelings, do you think that's getting better?
[36:37] The conversations are there.
[36:38] Yeah.
[36:38] Right.
[36:39] But, you know, I can, you just said I've done a stack load of work and I have, right?
[36:44] So I've done loads and loads of stuff on myself.
[36:46] What triggers me?
[36:47] How come it triggers me?
[36:49] How do I respond when I get triggered?
[36:51] All of those sort of things.
[36:54] And it's still a challenge for me every day.
[36:57] Yeah.
[36:58] You know, I've got five kids from three relationships where my partner now sees a very different Joe than what my previous two did.
[37:11] So they can sit back and go, who the hell is this bloke to try and give parenting advice?
[37:16] When, because that wasn't like, that literally, who I am now is a completely different person because of the work that I've done.
[37:25] And I just, I look back at that, Joe, and go, you know, I shudder at some of the things that I used to do and say, but I didn't know any better.
[37:33] Because, I mean, I feel like we're jumping around a little bit here, but...
[37:38] Was there an event?
[37:40] Because, I mean, you talk about like these suicidal ideations from when you're a teenager.
[37:44] But was there like an event or something happened or something changed in your life?
[37:50] Which, I mean, was it as sudden as like, I need to do work on myself?
[37:54] Or was it a gradual...
[37:57] You just said we jumped around.
[37:58] Let me get us to that point.
[38:00] That would be great.
[38:02] Challenges with alcohol and drugs.
[38:04] Got sober 18 years ago.
[38:07] Got sober from alcohol and drugs 18 years ago.
[38:09] And I realized that I was using substance to turn the noise down.
[38:13] Take away the substance.
[38:14] What happens?
[38:15] Noise goes sky high.
[38:16] Holy shit.
[38:16] Got some work to do.
[38:18] Right?
[38:18] So then...
[38:20] uh separated from my from my marriage repartnered had another child three kids two set relationships all i wanted to do more than anything more than a sports person was be a good dad wasn't being a good dad wasn't being a good person separated again i'm like going you know what's wrong with these just to jump in sorry joe but like did you realize you were not a good dad no after you'd be after you got sober
[38:44] No, no, because I thought that I was doing the best that I could with the tools that I had.
[38:54] But I always knew that I'd wanted better.
[38:57] I didn't know how to do or be better.
[39:00] That was the thing.
[39:01] Which must be so common.
[39:03] hugely common yeah uh went through through some challenging circumstances around suicide in 2014 psych ward stays all of that sort of stuff get into this work that i do with the enemy within traveling all around the place realized that it wasn't mental health that i was battling it was challenges with trauma and the impacts of trauma and the force changes in behavior so then i learn as much as i can about trauma and
[39:27] get to the path of understanding that, educating other people about that, the pandemic happens.
[39:33] The world closes down.
[39:36] All of a sudden, I'm sitting at home with three little kids and I realized one of the biggest realizations of my entire life is that I'd been a father for 18 years and a dad for two.
[39:50] And I was like, holy smokes, I don't know how to do this thing.
[39:53] Because when I was a dad, firstly, I was playing footy.
[39:57] So I was either training or playing for six days a week.
[39:59] And then I was going through addiction.
[40:00] So I was completely out of it on prescription pills and alcohol and drugs the entire time.
[40:05] Get sober, separation, repartnered, separated before he was even one.
[40:10] That kid.
[40:11] So now I don't have any kids around.
[40:12] And then I get into this relationship.
[40:15] But then I'm constantly dissociating.
[40:17] and finding a way to escape what was going on in my mind by throwing myself into the work.
[40:23] I was on the road 310 odd days of the year in communities, hundreds of communities across the country with the work that I was doing.
[40:32] At the end of the day, all I was doing was running away from myself.
[40:36] The pandemic happens, I go, I'm not allowed to go anywhere anymore.
[40:39] I'm not allowed to do anything.
[40:41] I've got to sit with this thing that's screaming at me inside my head, what the hell is it?
[40:44] Thank you for that.
[40:46] I really want to ask you more about parenting and something that you said specifically before.
[40:51] I don't know who said this first.
[40:53] I can't remember who said it, but being a parent is a bit like watching your own childhood through a window.
[41:00] And I certainly feel that as a parent and it brings the best and the worst out of me, I think.
[41:09] And I wanted to know when you said it triggers stuff.
[41:11] What has being a parent triggered for you?
[41:17] That I haven't been patient.
[41:19] Oh, wow.
[41:20] Right.
[41:21] What's an example of you being impatient?
[41:23] Temper.
[41:24] Oh, yeah.
[41:24] Yeah, I go from zero to 100.
[41:26] When I go to 100, it's really hard to wind back.
[41:29] One of the biggest challenges with my youngest daughter has been articulating what it is that I want to say so it doesn't land in a fearful way for her.
[41:44] I'm just frustrated and I'm trying to get it out.
[41:49] So articulate and then take a breath and go, no, darling, what we need to do is just put that back.
[41:56] We can wait till dinner.
[41:58] And there's going to be times where we go, shit, I didn't want to do that.
[42:01] And I said this and I didn't mean it.
[42:03] I don't know about you guys, but how many times, I know I certainly have as go,
[42:09] dad's really sorry.
[42:10] I didn't mean to say what I said.
[42:12] I was going to ask you about sorry, the power of sorry.
[42:14] Yeah.
[42:15] I think the power of sorry and the power of admitting, admitting that you didn't mean the way it came out.
[42:23] Yeah, yeah.
[42:24] There's a lot that needs to be said around validating how it makes people feel.
[42:30] Yeah, yeah.
[42:31] I'm sorry that you feel like that.
[42:32] I can see that it really upset you.
[42:35] Yeah.
[42:37] And dad, you and dad can sit down now and we can have a conversation about how it made you feel.
[42:42] Because dad doesn't want to make you feel like that.
[42:45] Dad doesn't want you to feel like that.
[42:47] Thanks to someone that's in this doco called Scene that you're in, thanks to Lyle Stone who was on the show, I've sort of been in the process of saying sorry to my kids because I make mistakes all the time as a dad.
[43:00] And like you, what you said before, it's like that's the thing I want to be, that's the most important thing to me is being a good dad.
[43:09] And I was having a chat with my oldest, who's only four, after I'd done something, like I'd slammed a door or something.
[43:17] I was really angry about something.
[43:20] And after coming out of that room and went up to him, I'm like, I'm really sorry about what happened before.
[43:27] How did it make you feel?
[43:30] And he told me he felt scared.
[43:32] And I just felt so low at that point.
[43:34] Cool.
[43:35] Because I was like, you're the person in the world, you and your brother and your mum are the three most important people in the world that I never want to make feel like that.
[43:45] But I had already done it.
[43:48] Like I'd done it and there was nothing I could do to change that.
[43:50] But to be able to have him say that to me.
[43:53] And then me really apologised for that was just, I'm so grateful that I picked up that lesson from Lael because it's, it feels like there's a chance for us to mend and maybe he'll say that dad's not perfect either.
[44:05] Like dad's making mistakes, but at least I'm trying to, I'm trying to be better.
[44:10] And you're understanding me a bit here.
[44:13] Yeah.
[44:14] There's parts in that doco where I sat down with particularly my two oldest kids and we had conversations that were so deep and they were like, they hit me with some stuff between the eyes that I just went, I had no idea that you felt like that.
[44:32] And they're taking their own power back in that moment and they're going, Dad, that wasn't cool.
[44:37] Because I lived in the bush in the country and they lived in the city and they were like, we thought that you only came to Sydney.
[44:44] You had only saw us when it was convenient for you to be in Sydney for work.
[44:50] And I was like, I want to see you every chance I get.
[44:56] So like that doco, that process of that doco was really beautiful for us as a family, for all of us and all of the kids, you know, like all the kids love each other.
[45:11] But I can also understand why my eldest two might be a little bit resentful.
[45:19] Hmm.
[45:19] Yeah.
[45:20] Around who I am as a dad to the youngest three.
[45:23] Yeah.
[45:24] Because they would have liked this dad.
[45:25] They would have loved this dad.
[45:27] Yeah.
[45:28] You know, and, you know, whilst I text them every day or I try and call them every day, dad still wasn't there when they were crying.
[45:40] How does that make you feel to not be able to get that time back?
[45:43] Mate.
[45:44] Mate.
[45:45] Like it's, that's why I just go,
[45:50] I wish things were different.
[45:52] I wish things were better.
[45:56] But the brain is this incredible thing that is continuously malleable to the point where if we still do the work, the brain will still wire for connection with our kids.
[46:09] So I try everything to try and...
[46:13] mend what happened, mend the relationships of who we are as three now, them young adults, me getting an older adult, but as three people, three individuals to really grow what we didn't get to grow.
[46:33] And that to the next point where I don't want to rush them, but I'm like,
[46:39] Can't wait to be a grandfather.
[46:43] I don't want to rush.
[46:44] Those grandkids are in for a treat.
[46:47] It's also different.
[46:49] I was 21.
[46:51] 21 when I had Brodie playing in the NRL.
[46:55] Like ego out of control.
[46:57] You know, all of what comes with that.
[47:00] And...
[47:01] I just didn't know how to be a dad.
[47:04] I was really at home because of my life lifestyle.
[47:08] And when I wasn't playing footy or training, I was out doing things that I shouldn't be doing anyway.
[47:13] So I just, I just didn't, I always wanted to be a better dad.
[47:19] I just, it wasn't like I didn't know how to be because like literally all you, all you do is just spend more time with them.
[47:26] But it was like, I was almost scared to do that as well.
[47:29] Like there were, there were times I can reflect, but,
[47:32] There are times I didn't want to be left at home with my kids.
[47:34] I didn't know what I was doing.
[47:36] Yeah.
[47:37] Oh, that's heartbreaking.
[47:38] I didn't know what I was doing.
[47:39] And then, of course, the mothers can go, he doesn't want to spend any time with the kids.
[47:47] I want more than anything to spend time with my kids.
[47:50] I'm just terrified of doing the wrong thing.
[47:53] I mean, I don't have kids, but I'm amazed just from what I observe.
[47:58] I'm just amazed that how much presumed knowledge there is when it comes to parenting.
[48:04] I'm just like, because I look at anyone who parents and I cannot believe they're doing it.
[48:11] And I know you just kind of have to, so you just sort of, you do your best.
[48:15] But...
[48:16] or you make the most of your situation, or you don't.
[48:19] You know, it's like everyone's got a different story and different situation.
[48:22] But it is amazing to me how hard I hear that it is and how it's just sort of, you just kind of, you go to the hospital, you have the baby, and then you go home, it's like, all right, good luck, call, see if anything.
[48:36] It's almost like everyone expects you to know what you're doing.
[48:38] Yeah.
[48:40] It's wild.
[48:41] I did want to ask you, it's kind of hard to really answer this question, I guess, but...
[48:46] You are the person you are now because of your experiences like we all are.
[48:51] But have you thought much about like, what's your, I guess, like relationship with regret?
[48:58] I'm grateful for absolutely every negative experience that I've ever had in my life.
[49:03] And that can be hard for some people to hear.
[49:05] And I'm not saying that I would want to go out and do it again, but I can't even sit here and regret it.
[49:11] what happened with things like my suicide attempt and things like that.
[49:16] Because that catapulted me into a place to learn about myself, the brain, which then led me into the parenting space, which then leads me into becoming a better dad to rebuild some of the best relationships that I could ever build.
[49:31] I failed every subject at school.
[49:34] But one, I can't regret even those days at school when I wasn't listening.
[49:38] Because now...
[49:40] I've written my own autobiography.
[49:41] I've contributed to loads of different other books.
[49:43] I'm now doing a PhD.
[49:45] Everything happens the way it's supposed to happen on the day that it's supposed to happen.
[49:48] And you get to exactly the point where you're at right now because of those experiences.
[49:54] Do you have a memory of the months and days and hours leading up to what you mentioned before with your suicide attempt?
[50:03] And how dark a place was that for you in that?
[50:06] I can 100% say...
[50:09] that people, and this is to the thousands and thousands that I've spoken to around the world that have been fortunate enough to be able to come through situations like that, is that in those moments we didn't wanna die, we just didn't know how else to end the pain.
[50:25] We're in so much consumable pain that we don't know what else to do, right?
[50:32] And it is so dark, it is so painful, and the noise between your ears is just screaming at you that you are so worthless, that you don't deserve to live, and that everyone, this is the important thing, is that everyone believes that you'd be better off not here.
[50:50] That is the most challenging thing about all of it is that depression convinces you.
[50:58] It robs you of reality and convinces you that you don't matter.
[51:04] In those moments, it convinces you.
[51:06] I'm a fairly mentally strong person, and I've been to some really tough places physically and emotionally prior to that, and then physically and emotionally after that.
[51:22] But in those moments, it convinces you and beats you with a stick to genuinely believe that the world is better off without you.
[51:36] I mean, thanks for sharing that.
[51:37] You must get asked to speak to a lot of people who are in that dark place.
[51:40] I'm interested to know what you say to people who are, for anyone listening right now who feels themselves in what you just said.
[51:48] What do you say to those people?
[51:49] Is there anything you can say to those people?
[51:50] Yeah, I say to those people, I promise you, I promise you, and I'll look you dead in the eye here, Hugh, and say, I promise you things can and do get better.
[51:59] Not will, do.
[52:01] They do get better with time, persistence and some effort to just start to learn about yourself.
[52:08] Because what we also know and understand is that every response that we have in our head, every response that we have with our body, how we feel, what we are triggered by, all of these things is a very natural and normal response to other experiences that we've had in our life.
[52:29] So, with time persistence and starting to dive into understand it a little bit,
[52:36] When you start to dive in and understand it a little bit, you can start to unpick where it's at.
[52:41] How does someone do that?
[52:43] How does someone, yeah, I need to understand myself better.
[52:46] Where's a good place?
[52:47] I mean, is it we're talking therapy here?
[52:48] Yeah, I think therapy, if you're not a therapy person, I've never been a therapy person.
[52:53] I'll openly admit that.
[52:55] I've had a crack at it.
[52:56] It just hasn't worked for me.
[52:58] Maybe it was because I was too guarded.
[53:00] and wouldn't, you know, and other times it's because I just didn't connect with the therapist.
[53:06] For me,
[53:08] Culture, getting out in the bush and sitting with cultural people and understanding that there's different lessons and values that we learn through different means.
[53:21] So it's therapy really.
[53:22] That is therapy but it's just not in the Western sense of what therapy is.
[53:28] The other thing is to understand that everything that we go through now, every thought, every feeling, every response that we have is a very natural and normal response.
[53:36] Yeah.
[53:38] to a very unnatural environment.
[53:41] Right.
[53:42] So that book, What Happened to You?
[53:44] I don't know if anyone read that book.
[53:46] No, no.
[53:47] That is an absolute game changer.
[53:48] Yeah, right.
[53:49] An absolute game changer.
[53:50] It changes because when people are like this, we always go, what's wrong with me?
[53:54] Yeah.
[53:55] What's wrong with me or what's wrong with that person?
[53:57] Why do they keep doing that?
[54:00] Why do they continuously turn their back on their family and go down and get on the drink every weekend?
[54:04] Why do they do that?
[54:06] What's wrong with them?
[54:08] And we all say it.
[54:09] What's wrong with me?
[54:10] And that book changes the conversation of what's…
[54:15] Not what's wrong with you, but what happened to you.
[54:19] It doesn't have to be the big capital T trauma, traumatic incidents that we know are super damaging.
[54:28] It doesn't have to be that.
[54:29] It can be the little nuances in behaviors and the experiences that we have that shape who we become as adults.
[54:38] That is very powerful.
[54:40] Beautifully said.
[54:42] How hard is it to go from a place of, and I'm guessing you're there, but you could tell me if you're not, of looking at yourself.
[54:51] When you look at yourself in that way, when you're in the depths of depression,
[54:56] there's a dearth of a severe lack of compassion and self-compassion.
[55:01] How hard is it to go?
[55:02] And how does one go from that to being able to, it seems like you have a level of compassion now for yourself and for the younger you that you were doing the best you could given what you had.
[55:13] I think what I'll say to that is that I judge myself every single day, but I also rate myself every single day.
[55:20] One to 10, even if things aren't great.
[55:23] If I'm at one, all I've got to do is get to two.
[55:27] What can I do that can get me to two?
[55:30] We know that 26 minutes of rigorous exercise equals enough endorphins to produce naturally in the brain for 12 hours of better moods.
[55:38] And 70% thereabouts of what we eat acts as a direct food source to our brain.
[55:42] So if we're feeling like shit, there's every chance we're not moving our body and we're eating rubbish.
[55:47] Now, there are many layers to that and what that is.
[55:49] I understand that.
[55:50] But what I'm saying in that moment is that
[55:53] I put the priority of how I'm feeling as priority.
[55:59] All right.
[55:59] First thing I need to do is move my body and start to eat better.
[56:03] Because when we're depressed, what you want to do is lay in bed, seclude and isolate from everyone, and you want to eat rubbish.
[56:09] Mm-hmm.
[56:10] and this probably speaks to everyone, get out in the bush.
[56:15] For me, getting out around a fire, Aboriginal people did that for 100,000 years.
[56:20] We had 10 therapists sitting around the fire.
[56:23] We just didn't have a piece of paper on the water tell us that's what we were.
[56:27] It's about being in the world's natural environments and,
[56:33] We could learn so much.
[56:35] I mean, like The Dreaming Path, which is Paul Callahan's book, this is a perfect book, I think, to read.
[56:41] I mean, it's got so much Aboriginal wisdom, knowledge that we just do not access enough.
[56:48] And like that book is such a good entry point for anyone who wants to learn more about that.
[56:55] The role that intergenerational trauma plays on the mental health of your community, is that something you must think a lot about that?
[57:05] I sit down and have conversations with the older people, aunties, uncles, great aunties, uncles, and my nan, and talking about how the white fellas used to come and the way that they used to speak to my dad and his brothers and sisters when they were just babies and stuff.
[57:21] Like having conversations like that.
[57:23] And then that little thing inside you boils, and then you go, they're all like that.
[57:30] But then the reality goes, they're not all like that, Joe.
[57:33] Like that's what intergenerational trauma is.
[57:37] It's just a natural response that comes there because of the experiences and the things that we observe throughout our life.
[57:44] It's super challenging to work through.
[57:47] And you've got to understand as well, I'm someone who is probably a wee bit further on down the road of processing and understanding and identifying what that is and how it plays out
[58:00] in my life in comparison to others.
[58:06] So I have the same challenges that brothers and sisters have when they crack off and want to.
[58:14] blow the joint up, when we get violent, I have the same response.
[58:20] It's just that I can slow it down a little bit and go, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[58:24] Because of all the different experiences I've had, the different lessons that I've had throughout my life from the likes of Uncle Paul Gordon, Uncle Paul Callaghan, but also people like my mum and my dad that go, you don't have to do that, Joe.
[58:36] That's right.
[58:36] You're not in danger here.
[58:38] So once you start to breathe deep and you start to slow everything down and start to talk to yourself, talk to the little version of you.
[58:44] We've all got that little version inside of us.
[58:46] Start to talk to the little version of you and go, it's all right here, Joe.
[58:51] You're not in danger, mate.
[58:52] It's okay.
[58:55] Just in the research I read about you, it said somewhere you had been diagnosed with bipolar.
[58:59] Is that right?
[59:00] Yeah.
[59:01] Yeah.
[59:01] We haven't talked about bipolar on this podcast ever before.
[59:04] And I would love to ask you questions about it.
[59:06] Is that all right?
[59:07] I said, go for it.
[59:09] Yeah.
[59:09] I was going to crack a joke then, but go for it.
[59:11] Of course.
[59:12] Yeah.
[59:13] So it used to be, it was...
[59:15] labeled as manic depression.
[59:18] So bipolar is bi, right?
[59:20] So two things, and I'm not the world's best at explaining things, but how I explain it is huge highs, huge lows.
[59:27] So we all go through highs and lows, except the mania is when you're up on this and you've got these grandiose ideas of,
[59:34] I wanted to go out and spend – my biggest one is spending.
[59:39] So one of my symptoms of when I'm manic, I spend heaps.
[59:44] I'll spend every last dollar that I've got and then Courtney will go, what are you doing?
[59:49] You just walked home with 10 suits.
[59:51] What?
[59:51] What?
[59:52] You're not going anywhere.
[59:53] Why do you need 10 zeros?
[59:54] I'm like, shit, I have.
[59:56] How did I do that?
[59:57] Because you're in this moment and you're just going, wow, everything.
[59:59] The world's amazing.
[1:00:00] You feel amazing.
[1:00:01] You feel unstoppable.
[1:00:02] You're just so grandiose with how high you are with different things that you're just constantly spending.
[1:00:08] And, you know, with that can come some behaviors that aren't fantastic either.
[1:00:13] And then there's the other one of the depressive moments.
[1:00:17] So it's stopping those from going huge highs and huge lows.
[1:00:21] And how I do that is exercise when I'm low and meditate when I'm high.
[1:00:28] And that presence of being out in the bush I touched on earlier –
[1:00:32] Um, for me, like Courtney said to me multiple times, it's time to get in your swag and piss off for a couple of days because you're just, you're not right, you know, and it's impacting all of us.
[1:00:44] Um, go out there.
[1:00:46] I know you're safe and she'll say, are you safe?
[1:00:49] Is it?
[1:00:49] And, and, and, um, I think I know what you mean by are you safe, but what do you actually, when she asks, are you safe?
[1:00:55] What is she actually asking?
[1:00:56] Um,
[1:00:57] There's been multiple times, too many times to count, where I've driven off out of my driveway looking in my revision mirror and not knowing whether I'd come home or not.
[1:01:06] Okay.
[1:01:08] Because I've been...
[1:01:11] so at war with what goes on between my, in my head.
[1:01:19] Do you have techniques or things that you do to try and pull yourself out of that?
[1:01:23] Yeah.
[1:01:23] I ring the right people.
[1:01:24] Yeah.
[1:01:24] Okay.
[1:01:24] I ring the right people.
[1:01:25] If I'm, if I'm, if I'm at that point.
[1:01:27] Is that a hard thing to do that?
[1:01:29] So when you're at that point to call someone, it was, and it has been over the years.
[1:01:33] Um,
[1:01:36] Actually, a really good friend of mine, Dr. Nairie Brown, I remember it the first time.
[1:01:43] She's an incredible woman and if anyone knows Dr. Nairie, look at the work that she does with young people and trauma and understanding.
[1:01:52] She was actually my doctor at a lot of my fights when I was boxing and she's stitched me up a few times and things like that after getting –
[1:02:01] knocked around.
[1:02:02] But it was confronting one time, I remember the conversation I had with her.
[1:02:07] And she said, darling, pull over.
[1:02:10] Are you safe?
[1:02:10] Is everything all right?
[1:02:11] And I was like, yeah, doc, I'm okay.
[1:02:13] And like I was, I was, I was crying.
[1:02:15] I was crying.
[1:02:16] And then she just talked to me and wove her magic and, you know, and then I'm like, I'm all right now.
[1:02:20] Yeah, I'm good.
[1:02:21] Cause they're fleeting.
[1:02:22] For me, they've always been fleeting thoughts, right?
[1:02:25] And then whilst they dive deeper and get deeper and deeper and harder and louder,
[1:02:29] It also what seems like it can be an hour of thinking, it's about 15 seconds.
[1:02:35] So it's always fleeting.
[1:02:37] I just know that I have to get back to presence and I know that it'll pass.
[1:02:42] It sounds like you and Courtney have a beautiful relationship and you guys have such an open dialogue about what's going on in your head.
[1:02:53] But talking about suicidal ideation with someone who loves you and cares about you so much, that must be a very difficult conversation or how do you go about that?
[1:03:03] You know, those type of conversations, Court, like she's very different.
[1:03:07] She doesn't communicate like I communicate.
[1:03:11] It's because she's a very – she's a super reserved person and I guess I can reflect on it by this, right, is that there was one time and, you know, if you can scroll through my social media pages and stuff, like there's probably three pictures of her out of the thousands that are there because she just doesn't like to be – she's not a person that likes to be in the forefront, right?
[1:03:35] But so she doesn't like a great deal of public events and things like that.
[1:03:40] She's just a super reserved person.
[1:03:42] I remember that I was really – I was in a really bad way, really bad way, and I hadn't come out of the room for a number of days before.
[1:03:54] and as much as she hates people, public, all of that sort of stuff, trying to paint a picture here, she come in to me and she said, she knows that I'm a music lover and I'm a massive Troy Cassadaly man.
[1:04:08] Like I love Troy.
[1:04:09] Troy, every time he comes to Dubbo, he reaches out and says, brother, I'm in town, do you want some tickets and stuff like that?
[1:04:16] Yeah.
[1:04:17] And I was in a real hole and Court come in and said, get up and have a shower.
[1:04:22] We're going to watch Troy.
[1:04:26] We're going to watch Troy Cassidaly tonight.
[1:04:33] Like I knew that she hates that, you know, but I knew that that was her way of reaching out her hand to go, Jo, you're not right here.
[1:04:45] And she put herself, she put herself in her hand
[1:04:50] most challenging space around people to get me out of it, if that makes sense.
[1:04:55] Selfless.
[1:04:56] Super selfless in that moment.
[1:05:00] And I go and I like – and I just go in that moment like I must be not –
[1:05:06] I mustn't be well here because she's putting herself and, and, and it mightn't seem like a huge thing to you, but anyone who knows her, anyone who knows Courtney knows that that's a big thing.
[1:05:16] And this is not a slight on Troy Cassadale.
[1:05:18] It was just the crowd.
[1:05:20] She just sound like people.
[1:05:22] A close brother of mine put it so, so perfectly when he said, she's that old woman who sits at the fire, right?
[1:05:30] In our, in our community or our cultural ways.
[1:05:33] And she will make sure everything else around us going good.
[1:05:36] Everyone's fed.
[1:05:36] The kids are warm.
[1:05:37] Everything's safe.
[1:05:40] She's that old woman that makes sure everyone's right like that.
[1:05:43] That moment that night, I have that post on my social media actually because it's a picture of me and her and she hates getting the picture taken.
[1:05:51] It was just a picture of me and her at Troy's show.
[1:05:57] And I remember it instantly.
[1:05:59] It was like,
[1:06:01] People who are going through depression say it's like a dark cloud.
[1:06:04] It was like the cloud went away after that night.
[1:06:09] We should say it's Troy's music or we can say it was Courtney's music.
[1:06:14] She'll cringe at me even speaking about this.
[1:06:17] I wrote it about it in my book actually.
[1:06:20] What's your book called?
[1:06:21] Sorry for people who want it.
[1:06:22] Defying the Enemy Within.
[1:06:24] It goes right through in depth the story of things but also probably the most important part about the book is the last third of it which talks about everything that I do to get well.
[1:06:34] I wrote about it in my book that she lost her mom to leukemia and she had leukemia at the same time as her mom.
[1:06:44] Oh, wow.
[1:06:44] Going through the chemotherapy and so she's a super guarded person
[1:06:53] And I think, you know, there's many reasons as to why we are the way we are and why she is the way she is.
[1:06:58] But super guarded person and a person who's just been so selfless, super fortunate to, you know, wasn't supposed to have kids because of the, you know, the chemo and everything that she went through as a young person as well.
[1:07:11] So, you know, really, really grateful for that.
[1:07:16] I can have those conversations.
[1:07:17] And it wasn't one not too long ago, actually.
[1:07:20] It wasn't a really dark, deep conversation about I just went, I'm not doing too good.
[1:07:28] And she's like, what do we need to do?
[1:07:31] What can we do?
[1:07:33] What do we need to do?
[1:07:34] Right response.
[1:07:35] You are a fascinating man.
[1:07:37] You're so generous with your storytelling.
[1:07:39] I've only given you a little bit today.
[1:07:40] Okay.
[1:07:42] We'll get up a pint too.
[1:07:44] It is such a privilege to chat with you.
[1:07:47] We think you're amazing.
[1:07:48] Thank you for joining us, mate.
[1:07:49] It's been an absolute pleasure.
[1:07:51] It's been good.
[1:07:52] Sometimes I can have conversations that people find difficult to hear.
[1:07:56] But please, from me, know and hear it that I'm only trying to,
[1:08:03] to help the world understand that we can be in a better place.
[1:08:09] Thank you, Matt.
[1:08:10] Thanks, lads.
[1:08:10] So nice to meet you.
[1:08:11] Thanks very much.
[1:08:12] That was awesome.
[1:08:13] Thanks, Jack.
[1:08:20] What a fascinating guy.
[1:08:23] An unbelievable life.
[1:08:25] And a directness and kind of determination towards honesty and improvement.
[1:08:32] Yeah.
[1:08:32] Bettering oneself throughout their life.
[1:08:35] Pretty remarkable person.
[1:08:37] Yeah.
[1:08:37] Yeah.
[1:08:40] I don't know why.
[1:08:41] I mean, it's sort of obvious why this came up for me, but I found myself thinking a lot about my own life.
[1:08:47] adolescence while listening to Joe and talking to Joe.
[1:08:52] And there was some things he talked about then there, really distressing things about that he'd gone through.
[1:08:57] But he was talking a bit about getting concussions as a young person playing sport.
[1:09:03] And I was thinking of this sort of like hyper-masculine, like rugby and footy.
[1:09:09] I played like junior footy rather than rugby.
[1:09:12] Such a hyper kind of Aussie rules, I should say.
[1:09:15] Yeah.
[1:09:15] Certainly when I was playing it as a kid in the late 90s, early 2000s, and I assume it's still the same today, but there's such a premium on kind of toughness.
[1:09:28] And thinking about his story makes me reflect on my own story and also how much I've changed as a person.
[1:09:36] But also, like I carry a lot of shame about the kind of sportsman, footballer I was back then.
[1:09:45] I completely understand why you're thinking this because he did talk about quite a similar journey of reflecting on who he was as a footballer and who he is now.
[1:09:52] And he's just a totally different person.
[1:09:54] Like that's who he was.
[1:09:54] He talks about that's who he was.
[1:09:55] It's not who he is anymore.
[1:09:57] Yeah.
[1:09:57] And it's complete contrast, the man he's now to what he was.
[1:10:01] And this is obviously the same with you.
[1:10:03] Well, yeah, and I think ironically, I think a lot of people wouldn't guess this about me or even a lot of people wouldn't have known at the time.
[1:10:13] But as a like sort of I guess as a year eight or nine kid, I started playing footy in about year seven, year eight.
[1:10:21] I was a lot bigger than the average kid.
[1:10:23] I grew a bit earlier.
[1:10:24] I was quite strong.
[1:10:26] And off the field, I was I think as I've spoken about on this podcast before, I was trying to be kind of.
[1:10:31] perfect in all ways.
[1:10:33] I was very polite, very friendly.
[1:10:35] I think probably a teenage version of the person you see now.
[1:10:40] Play songs at assembly.
[1:10:41] Yeah, play guitar.
[1:10:42] Yeah, play music at assembly.
[1:10:44] The Holy Grail.
[1:10:46] Yeah, really.
[1:10:47] Got up at assembly and sung.
[1:10:49] And I think I had a sort of an image for a lot of people as kind of, and I'm using the term that I felt at the time, but a kind of very, in inverted commas, soft person.
[1:11:02] And so I started playing footy and I wasn't very good.
[1:11:05] Like I was not very skillful.
[1:11:07] When playing, I was very good at hurting people physically and hitting people.
[1:11:15] You mean like you wanted to, like you meant to?
[1:11:18] Well, yeah.
[1:11:19] I think in about a year out of nine, I got... No, you weren't like punching people.
[1:11:23] Yeah.
[1:11:23] No, but it was dirty.
[1:11:25] Like I was, like you used to call it a shirt front, which has now been outlawed.
[1:11:30] The hip and shoulder, yeah.
[1:11:31] Hip and shoulder in the sort of chest and chin, which is quite dangerous and it's now illegal.
[1:11:37] But I was quite, like I remember there was this kid who was at an opposing school and at that age, you're such different sizes.
[1:11:44] He was tiny.
[1:11:45] Like I was in year nine.
[1:11:46] I was probably the size I am now.
[1:11:48] He would have been basically a kid.
[1:11:50] And I tackled him so hard that I'm pretty sure he ended up in hospital.
[1:11:56] And I remember it was like really celebrated.
[1:12:00] Like it was celebrated amongst the players, amongst the coaches.
[1:12:04] Like you put a kid in hospital.
[1:12:06] Yeah.
[1:12:06] And the story going around of like, well, you're, that's cool.
[1:12:09] Like you're, that makes you tough because you did that.
[1:12:14] I can just imagine that.
[1:12:15] Like obviously now knowing how horrible it is to go to hospital and like to be sent to hospital, it's, but yeah, as a kid, I can so imagine how that would have been, particularly within a footy environment.
[1:12:28] So celebrated.
[1:12:29] Yeah.
[1:12:30] I still, I felt so bad because I still remember the kid's face.
[1:12:33] Like when I was, when I heard him, he was terrified.
[1:12:37] And yeah, I feel a lot of shame about that and about, and this was like tackling and bumping and I wasn't throwing punches.
[1:12:46] I wasn't like,
[1:12:47] I had this weird thing in my mind of like, well, it's on the field.
[1:12:51] It's all.
[1:12:51] It's fine.
[1:12:52] It's like part of the game.
[1:12:53] It's almost like what can you get away with within the rules?
[1:12:56] Yeah.
[1:12:57] Yeah, exactly.
[1:12:57] God, if we parted against each other, I would have stayed so far away from you.
[1:13:01] Yeah.
[1:13:02] Yeah.
[1:13:02] Well, I did that in the United.
[1:13:03] I won this.
[1:13:04] And funnily enough, my kids found a mum and dad had a box of trophies at the
[1:13:11] At their house And my kids were going through them And my oldest boy Charlie found this award That they called at the school the Die Hard Award Which was for like the toughest player And I won it in year nine And he was asking me what it was for And I felt really I didn't know how to, I didn't want to explain what it was for I kind of changed the subject And didn't tell him, because he can't read yet So he couldn't read the words So I sort of, he said I was I loved the movie Die Hard the most Yeah Yeah
[1:13:41] But truth is like for the rest of my playing footy days, so like year 9, 10, 11, 12, like I only – for the rest of time playing, that was all I was sort of known to do and was my job on every team was to hurt people.
[1:13:58] And I'm not over-exaggerating when I say I think I probably –
[1:14:06] concussed at least five or six people.
[1:14:09] Really?
[1:14:10] Wow.
[1:14:11] And at the time it was always like everyone celebrated after the game.
[1:14:15] It was like, look what you did.
[1:14:17] That's awesome.
[1:14:18] It sort of becomes like notches on the belt or something.
[1:14:20] Yeah.
[1:14:21] Yeah.
[1:14:22] And I hated it.
[1:14:24] Like the more...
[1:14:25] I played, the more I hated it, the more I hated I was doing it.
[1:14:27] I think one of the reasons I was doing it was because, as I said before, people kind of joked about me being soft and being a bit weak and being, this is very much the language of 14-year-old boys in the late 90s, but they assumed because I was singing at assembly and inverted commas soft, everyone said there was a lot of jokes about me being gay and stuff like that.
[1:14:50] Mm-hmm.
[1:14:51] Um, and so I think being physically tough on the field to me felt like, oh, this is me being, proving them wrong.
[1:15:01] To change the narrative.
[1:15:02] Changing the narrative and proving that I'm very much inverted commas, like manly and tough and a real bloke and one of the, and kind of one of the boys, like one of the team.
[1:15:14] I mean, in your defence for the time, it's like not only were you a kid, but also the unfortunately footy role models of like the 80s and 90s, it was about toughness.
[1:15:26] It was that.
[1:15:27] Yeah.
[1:15:27] Yeah.
[1:15:28] And toughness was defined by hurting other people.
[1:15:30] Yeah, yeah.
[1:15:31] And I remember watching the Electrifying 80s video and the Nervous 90s video.
[1:15:36] Oh, yeah.
[1:15:36] I had Biff's Bumps and Brawlers.
[1:15:37] Biff's Bumps and Brawlers.
[1:15:38] It was... And they really...
[1:15:40] There was a full montage of like...
[1:15:42] It was the whole DVD.
[1:15:43] Yeah.
[1:15:44] The whole VHS.
[1:15:45] Yeah, just like guys like running into and hurting each other and the commentators being like, Oh, God, can you believe he's absolutely left him?
[1:15:52] You know, it's like it's not like now it's really serious and not encouraged.
[1:15:58] But back then it was definitely encouraged.
[1:16:01] Yeah.
[1:16:01] Even by professionals.
[1:16:02] Well, yeah.
[1:16:03] And certainly celebrated by the adult males who ran the footy teams, like the coaches, the role models at the various teams I played in.
[1:16:15] And then by the time I was 19, I was still playing footy and I got hit in amazingly, really wet day, extremely heavy, hard ball.
[1:16:27] I got hit in the face from like a guy kicked it from about a foot away.
[1:16:30] And I had a weird twinge in my neck and an ambulance was called and I was taken off the ground in an ambulance because they're like, you might have done something to your neck.
[1:16:39] And I was so happy.
[1:16:41] I don't think I was that injured at all, to be honest, but I kind of faked it.
[1:16:44] I was like, I just don't want to play footy anymore.
[1:16:46] I hate the person I am on the field.
[1:16:47] I don't want to hurt people anymore.
[1:16:49] I can't do it in any other way, so I can't contribute and be part of footy.
[1:16:52] Oh God, that is so Josh, isn't it?
[1:16:56] Like that's so you to feel like to, even at that age, to realize how horrible that is.
[1:17:03] Like I can't do this anymore.
[1:17:04] Yeah.
[1:17:04] I think a lot of kids, myself included, would be if I was in that position, I'd feel like, oh, this is great.
[1:17:09] I've got some currency here.
[1:17:11] Like people are, you know, but it's so you to acknowledge within yourself, you're like, this is really, really bad.
[1:17:17] I've got to stop this.
[1:17:19] Yeah, mate.
[1:17:20] Yeah.
[1:17:21] Yeah.
[1:17:21] Well, I guess thank you for that classic Josh.
[1:17:25] But then, so I guess I just want to bring it up.
[1:17:28] I don't know, just to admit that I feel really bad about that time in my life, but also to say how confused I was as a kid and a teenager about what it is to be like tough, what toughness is.
[1:17:41] And now as a parent I've got two boys and my youngest boy is a really strong little – he's only two and a half, but he's a very strong little boy who's very good at advocating for himself and is very physical as a little kid.
[1:17:58] He will wrestle, will –
[1:18:00] And I found myself the moment he was, when he would like fall over and get up and not cry.
[1:18:07] I found myself being proud of him for being tough.
[1:18:11] And this ingrained thing of like, oh, look, he's a little tough guy and he stands up for himself.
[1:18:17] And even though I came to a point in my life where I've, that's not me and that's not the person I want to be.
[1:18:21] I still, I was impressed by a two-year-old being in quote tough in the same way that I was.
[1:18:30] trying to take on that the idea, the only idea of toughness is physical strength.
[1:18:36] So I think it's a really confusing area about what it is to be a male.
[1:18:44] There's so much that's confusing about being a man and there are infinite ways to be one, but I think it's really confusing when it comes to the idea of toughness and what that is and the way it's role modeled.
[1:18:56] Yeah.
[1:18:58] But then I look at some of the people that we've interviewed on the show who I would consider that are definitely role models to young men like Pat Cummins, like Billy Slater, like Harry Garside, who's a boxer, literally trains for boxing, but shows such a different...
[1:19:24] projection of what it is to be tough, those kind of men.
[1:19:28] And I just hope that the situation for young boys today is very different to what it was for someone like myself 20 years ago, that there are so many, there are infinite ways to be a man that is not...
[1:19:45] aggressive to other people or that shows a version of toughness in masculinity that is there's multiple ways it's duplicitous there's um you can there's many ways to be and it doesn't involve um pushing that toughness on other people i think um i don't know if i'm making any sense here yeah absolutely it's a really complicated area but
[1:20:07] Yeah, it's such a good thing to ask.
[1:20:11] Like, yeah, what is toughness for a man now?
[1:20:15] Because like, yeah, without wanting to, like, I haven't thought about this, but yeah, it feels like all those people you mentioned before and I guess like what we're always trying to do is the vulnerability part of it, which is sort of part of that can be like,
[1:20:34] I guess, like almost like listening and admitting you're wrong at times.
[1:20:40] To me, I think someone who is like really vulnerable, that to me is tough now.
[1:20:45] I didn't think that was in school.
[1:20:47] Yeah, yeah.
[1:20:47] But now I think, gosh, when we have someone come on the podcast and they speak really openly about it,
[1:20:53] I just think they're really tough.
[1:20:55] But we could probably change that word, yeah.
[1:20:58] Just say impressive.
[1:20:59] Impressive, yeah, resilient, open.
[1:21:03] Well, for so many men, for most men, it's much harder to talk openly and be honest and speak vulnerably
[1:21:13] even not even publicly but just like to one person than it is to go out onto a footy field and like line someone up and run through them.
[1:21:23] Being vulnerable, that's much harder and like much more impressive.
[1:21:27] Yeah, it's a great reflection.
[1:21:28] I think there are a lot of men listening to this episode.
[1:21:32] I think reflecting on who you truly are, the journey you've been on, the versions of yourself, the ways you've tried to project your journey,
[1:21:40] The ways you've tried to hide, like we're all insecure, but the ways what have you done to try and hide your insecurities I think is really interesting.
[1:21:48] Yeah, and if I think of Joe's life, I respect his willingness to confront his own life and his experiences.
[1:21:59] and the person he wants to be and the father he wants to be now, that's the part that I admire and respect about him rather than the fact that he was probably a pretty tough rugby player.
[1:22:11] Or boxer, yeah.
[1:22:11] Or boxer.
[1:22:12] Sorry, boxer as well.
[1:22:15] That's the, yeah, those are the qualities I think I would like to have in myself.
[1:22:21] Yeah, I agree.
[1:22:22] I agree.
[1:22:23] Yeah.
[1:22:23] Yeah.
[1:22:24] I mean, I could box if I wanted, but I don't.
[1:22:27] So choosing not to.
[1:22:28] Yeah, me too.
[1:22:29] Yeah.
[1:22:31] You and me boxing against each other would be quite funny.
[1:22:33] Throwing hands?
[1:22:33] Are you serious?
[1:22:35] No, thank you.
[1:22:37] It'd be an interesting battle, though.
[1:22:38] I don't think it was connected at any point.
[1:22:41] We'd be hugging pretty quickly.
[1:22:43] I'm so sorry, mate.
[1:22:44] I'm so sorry.
[1:22:45] I'm so sorry.
[1:22:47] I think I actually connected on your chin before.
[1:22:49] I'm really, really sorry.
[1:22:50] That was horrible.
[1:22:50] It was not necessary.
[1:22:52] You didn't deserve it.
[1:22:52] You are a good guy.
[1:22:54] We are good mates.
[1:22:55] I love you.
[1:22:56] I actually love you.
[1:22:58] What are we doing?
[1:22:59] Ding, ding, ding, ding.
[1:23:04] Anyway, very grateful for Joe's time.
[1:23:06] And Josh, that's a really beautiful reflection.
[1:23:08] Thank you.
[1:23:09] Thank you, Joe.
[1:23:09] Thanks, Joe.
[1:23:13] If you enjoyed this episode, there's a very good chance you'll love the Vulnerability Mail, our weekly newsletter to help you remain imperfect.
[1:23:20] Each week, we'll send you one vulnerable question inspired by the current episode to help you unpack your own imperfect life.
[1:23:27] Subscribe at www.theimperfects.com.au.

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