# Dr Emily - The Phenomenon That Is Imposter Syndrome

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 20 Sep 2026, 1 h 12 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/hd5np1p7e9dh5hhd53vdi8xi.mp3

Do you live in fear of being found out as a fraud? That despite your years of competency, achievement and high performance someone will uncover the truth? Well, you’re in the right place. Our resident psychologist Dr Emily Musgrove is here to tell you that your imposter syndrome is nothing to be afraid of. In fact, it’s not even a syndrome. 💌 Get practical take-aways from this episode, and join 9,400+ others in our newsletter community - https://www.theimperfects.com.au/sign-up-to-our-newsletter/ To get a little bit meta, Dr Emily explains that knowing that you don’t know everything, is a good thing. Especially if you’re starting a new role, or trying something for the first time. HOWEVER, the long-term consequences of the imposter cycle such as perfectionism, overcompensation, burnout, or even avoidance and procrastination, may impact your willingness to say yes to new opportunities, such as going for that promotion or asking for support. In this episode, Dr Emily asks Hugh, Ryan and Josh to think about the balance of their competence and confidence, and provides them (and you!) with four practical strategies for combatting this pesky phenomenon. And then, a weird amount of chat about Vlad the Impaler. 0:00 – An Emisode! 2:41 – Adam Grant is not an imposter 5:11 – Origins of Imposter Syndrome 6:45 – ‘Syndrome’ is the wrong word 8:19 – It all comes back to belonging 10:39 – How common is imposter syndrome? 12:20 – Fear of being found out as a fraud 15:16 – The evolutionary psychology of belonging and self-doubt 16:35 – Is self-doubt actually healthy? 17:42 – Is your confidence a mask? 18:57 – The Dunning-Kruger Effect 23:15 – The more you know …. 25:12 – Competence vs confidence 26:29 – The Imposter Cycle: anxiety, perfectionism, luck 32:09 – Becoming your own favourite artist 35:55 – Avoidance, procrastination + self-fulfilling prophecies 38:29 – Long term consequences ft. Hugh’s anus 45:26 – Authenticity as the antidote 46:22 – Less growth, less promotions 48:52 – Strategy 1: write down your skills 49:53 – Strategy 2: name your shame 51:40 – Supporting a friend with imposter phenomenon 52:29 – Self-doubt in a new role is a good sign 57:12 – Strategy 3: mentor a near peer 1:00:38 – Strategy 4: celebrate your success 1:02:57 – Creating a good workplace culture 1:04:06 – Belonging is good for business 1:06:25 – Want more on belonging? Dr Em, thanks for joining us. 🫖Imperfects episodes mentioned on this episode • Adam Grant - The Potential of Your Potential - https://bit.ly/4jc0DFM • Dr Emily - We’re Longing for Belonging - https://bit.ly/4yElLJp • Rana Hussain - Belonging for Connection - http://bit.ly/4odhGY8 • Esther Perel - It’s Not Them, It’s You - https://bit.ly/4yxgljs 🎧Things to listen to • The Curiosity Shop with Brene Brown and Adam Grant - https://bit.ly/4gT05mW 📖Things to read • Hidden Potential, by Adam Grant - https://bit.ly/4AemQcv • Hardwiring Happiness, by Rick Hanson - https://bit.ly/3T6IhM0 📺 Things to watch • Mad Men - https://bit.ly/4cLB6zx 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - patreon.com/theimperfects 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] If 70% of people are experiencing this thing, it's not abnormal.
[0:06] It's actually normal.
[0:08] It's imposter syndrome with Dr Emily.
[0:10] This very strong feeling of being a phony or being a fraud, accompanied by a fear that I will be discovered and outed as such.
[0:21] What I've experienced is also the fear of being caught that I think I'm good enough to play in this arena.
[0:27] Yes, absolutely.
[0:28] And it sounds something like, who do they think they are?
[0:32] Yes.
[0:33] People that are prone to imposterism will often fail to recognise that their skill and their hard work resulted in this achievement or this outcome.
[0:45] They believe that it was just by chance that I made it through this.
[0:49] That resonates big time.
[0:51] For me, it was a very sore anus.
[0:57] Never felt pain like it.
[0:58] And I screamed.
[1:00] I can't wait till this comes back to imposter syndrome.
[1:04] Quick, is anyone here a doctor?
[1:06] Yes, her name is Dr Emily and she's a psychologist.
[1:12] Please welcome to The Imperfects our very own...
[1:16] Psychologist!
[1:17] She's back.
[1:18] She's back and psychologist-y as ever.
[1:23] Everyone gets so excited when you're here, Em.
[1:25] Do you get excited when you're here?
[1:26] I really do, yes.
[1:28] I'm very excited.
[1:28] That's really what I wanted to hear.
[1:30] Everyone's sitting at home with their pen and pad at the ready just going, stop talking, just tell me what I need to learn.
[1:35] I'm going to learn something.
[1:37] Give me the facts.
[1:38] Change my life quick.
[1:41] No pressure.
[1:42] Let's get straight into it because this topic that we know that you're going to be talking about today is one that I certainly have dealt with a lot.
[1:53] What are you talking about today?
[1:55] I would really like to explore imposter syndrome.
[1:58] Yeah.
[1:59] Jeez.
[2:00] Good.
[2:01] Yeah.
[2:01] Yeah.
[2:02] Thank you.
[2:02] Now, I'm aware that you had in 2024, you had Adam Grant come on and talk about, you know, at that time, the book he'd written, which is Hidden Potential.
[2:13] Um, and he touched on imposter syndrome, um, in a really eloquent way, of course, which he does.
[2:20] Um, but I thought it would be really useful for us to actually kind of do a bit of a deep dive into this experience that is, um, such a normal human experience to have.
[2:29] Um, and then hopefully to look at some ways in which we can work with them.
[2:31] I mean, I already knew Adam Grant was a big deal, but then I found out recently that he's just started a podcast with Brene Brown.
[2:37] Yes.
[2:37] Really?
[2:38] And it's excellent.
[2:38] Is it?
[2:39] Can highly recommend.
[2:40] Yeah, I bet.
[2:41] I mean, it's amazing.
[2:42] It's like Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley have started a podcast together.
[2:46] It's like, whoa, okay.
[2:49] That's going to be great.
[2:52] Okay, now do you have a clip?
[2:53] I do.
[2:54] It's actually from that episode and I thought it was kind of a good platform to start off with if that's okay.
[2:58] Yeah.
[2:59] What's common are imposter thoughts, which are the everyday pangs of, I wonder if other people are overestimating me.
[3:07] I wonder if I'm up to this challenge.
[3:09] Am I ready for this promotion or this role?
[3:13] Am I as good as other people think I am?
[3:15] The big question that comes out of this is, what do you do with the feeling of being an imposter?
[3:19] And I've come to think it's a paradox that on the one hand, you're saying, I don't know what I'm doing.
[3:24] I don't.
[3:25] I don't believe in myself.
[3:28] And on the other hand, you're saying, but I definitely know that I don't know what I'm doing.
[3:33] And I'm going to trust my own opinion over the expectations and beliefs of other people.
[3:37] Well, can you you can't have it both ways.
[3:39] Either you know what you're doing or you don't.
[3:41] Anyway, so when when when you confront that paradox, what I would say is it's really tempting to trust your own judgment over other people's because you have more information about yourself than any other person will ever have about you.
[3:55] What you're forgetting is that other people see you more objectively.
[3:58] They're more neutral.
[3:59] They have more distance.
[4:01] And that gives them an accurate viewpoint that's just invisible to you.
[4:06] And I think what that means is if multiple people believe in you, it's probably time to believe them.
[4:12] And that when you feel like an imposter, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're being overestimated by other people.
[4:19] It often means that you're underestimating yourself.
[4:22] Because the people around you, especially if there's more than one, they have seen a capacity for growth in you that you cannot see yet.
[4:29] And you should trust that you have that potential and then see what you can do to try to live up to it.
[4:35] That to me is a healthy attitude toward imposter syndrome.
[4:38] And Basima goes a step further and she says, look, when you feel like an imposter, you should just say, hmm.
[4:44] Other people think I could be pretty awesome and now let me go and try to make them proud.
[4:51] God, smart guy, isn't he?
[4:52] He speaks well.
[4:53] Yeah, very well.
[4:54] Oh, there were just, you know, really kind of about 10 little nuggets in there about imposter syndrome in such a short space of time.
[5:02] And I think really what he's saying is, you know, in there is that there is actually great potential to arise from imposter syndrome.
[5:08] this imposter experience that we can have.
[5:12] But I wonder if it might be useful just to start off with even understanding what the definition is and also having a look at the origins because the origin is quite interesting.
[5:21] Great, great.
[5:22] Great, okay.
[5:22] Let's do it.
[5:24] So this particular phenomenon was first observed and named by psychologists Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes in 1978 and it came through their observations of,
[5:38] specifically of high-achieving women
[5:43] not being able to believe that they should be where they are, of feeling very doubtful about their performance and their capacities despite evidence to the contrary.
[5:57] So it's kind of this key component here is that they were doubting themselves despite factual evidence to the contrary and they termed it imposter phenomenon.
[6:13] It was seen as an experience rather than a syndrome.
[6:17] Okay.
[6:19] But across time, somehow or another, the culture has begun to weaponise this very normal experience to then create it as a syndrome.
[6:32] Okay.
[6:33] So in some ways it's actually really important because when we think about a syndrome, it's the medicalisation and creating a pathology of a normal experience.
[6:44] And so when we see it as something that is pathologised, it often means that we internalise that experience to be our fault.
[6:56] Okay?
[6:56] Wow.
[6:58] So that there's something, if it's a pathology, if it's a syndrome, that means there's something wrong with me and that the responsibility lies with me to overcome this experience.
[7:09] But what I need to really make very clear with the transition to it being a syndrome as opposed to a phenomenon is that in the very first instance, imposter feelings often arise from very real experiences of being told you don't belong here.
[7:29] So in 1978, when these high achieving women, you know, most often in academia and in the health industry, health professions, they were the minority.
[7:40] And they were experiencing overt messages that you don't belong here.
[7:45] that they, in actual fact, what a normal and healthy response to being told you do not belong here.
[7:54] And yet we have pathologised that experience to then become our fault rather than the culture that we might have been swimming in at the time.
[8:04] How is that making sense?
[8:05] You have started very strong today, madam.
[8:08] Thank you.
[8:09] Thank you.
[8:10] It kind of reminds me of, have you seen Mad Men, the show?
[8:13] The Peggy Olsen kind of arc, her story is a really interesting one to think about in terms of this sort of thing, the feeling of like belonging and not being welcomed and having that narrative or trying to fight that narrative in your head that is a real thing, especially in that time.
[8:31] Yeah, absolutely.
[8:32] I think that's a really great example.
[8:33] And because she was a minority.
[8:35] Again, we know from the belonging research, of course, that any time you're a minority, you are going to be much more vulnerable to experiencing, you know, a sense of uncertainty, of feeling worried, of feeling doubtful.
[8:49] And this then most obviously can translate into feeling doubtful about your abilities, about your skills, about your ability to complete or perform in this particular job.
[9:01] So I just wanted to emphasize that there are these historical foundations here to this experience.
[9:06] And I guess, you know, for me in the work that I do and also more broadly, there is a call in some ways to take away it being a pathologized experience and just to look at this as a normal human experience that we can all have.
[9:23] And what difference might it make if we don't view it as being a problem or something to fix or treat?
[9:30] Yeah.
[9:31] Yeah.
[9:31] Or also that the problem is you.
[9:35] Exactly.
[9:36] Because I guess it's got, I'm sure you're going to go into this, but it seemed very complicated as far as what's going on in your mind, in your brain, and then, as you said, the overt signals that you get that you don't belong that I'm sure...
[9:51] uh, people experience every day and people of different minorities would feel to a more extreme degree in certain scenarios.
[9:58] Yeah.
[9:58] So calling it a syndrome kind of makes it like the problem, it kind of puts the problem on you rather than the people around you and the system.
[10:05] Exactly.
[10:06] And it minimizes the accountability of the institutions and the cultures with, within which we work.
[10:12] Yeah.
[10:13] Um, so I think that's important just to acknowledge at the start that, um,
[10:16] from my point of view, and working with this feeling, which is very real and can be very debilitating, that we also want to hold it as an understandable response, that it's okay that this arises.
[10:30] It's so good.
[10:31] And to state the obvious, so helpful to hear that.
[10:33] I've never really thought about it from that point of view.
[10:36] In my experience of imposter syndrome, which is usually in a work environment, it always feels like the thing that I need to do.
[10:43] I need to get over it.
[10:44] It's like I need to feel comfortable in this thing despite the environment around me.
[10:51] The other thing I want to add in there is that there are varying estimates as to how many people experience the imposter phenomenon.
[11:00] Or we could call it imposterism.
[11:01] Some researchers call it that.
[11:03] But there are varying estimates.
[11:05] Mostly they land around 70%.
[11:08] 70% of people will experience the imposter phenomenon at some point in time.
[11:14] Now, if you think about the normal bell curve and how we identify pathology, it's usually when an experience is abnormal.
[11:24] But if 70% of people are experiencing this thing, it's not abnormal.
[11:31] It's actually normal.
[11:32] Yeah, well, I mean, like 70% is lower than I would have guessed, actually.
[11:36] Yeah.
[11:36] But maybe that's from my own experience, but yeah.
[11:39] It needs a rebrand.
[11:40] It needs a rebrand.
[11:41] And it's helpful for a number of reasons.
[11:44] I think it can invite, obviously, a normalising experience.
[11:49] So I'm not alone in this.
[11:50] It's a really normal thing.
[11:52] Other people will have had this too.
[11:54] That's so helpful.
[11:55] It's validating and I think it takes off this kind of internalised blame that we will hold.
[12:02] But I will come to that as well.
[12:03] I've got the bloody imposter normals.
[12:07] Yeah.
[12:08] We call it the normals.
[12:09] Yeah, good Ray Brand.
[12:10] The normals.
[12:10] Yeah, got the bloody normals.
[12:12] But what is normal?
[12:18] That could follow.
[12:20] But I think if we just called it imposter normals.
[12:22] Yeah.
[12:23] No, just normals.
[12:24] Yeah.
[12:24] I'm going to stick with them for now.
[12:25] I'll do the marketing stuff.
[12:28] No.
[12:32] So I guess if we kind of then jump into what is the imposter phenomenon or what is imposterism and at its heart, it's obviously doubting your competencies and this very strong, often pervasive feeling of being a phony or being a fraud accompanied by a fear that I will be discovered and outed as such.
[12:58] Yeah.
[12:59] What I've experienced is also the fear of being caught that I think I'm good enough to play in this arena.
[13:05] Yes.
[13:06] There's a really common thought that comes with that.
[13:08] And it sounds something like, who do they think they are?
[13:12] Yes, exactly that.
[13:14] They think they can do this job.
[13:16] What a joke.
[13:16] Can I add another phrase that someone said?
[13:18] Stay in your lane.
[13:20] Yeah.
[13:20] Yeah.
[13:21] And that's, you've heard that before.
[13:23] Not actually.
[13:24] That's what the internal dialogue is.
[13:25] But I know that's what people do say about like the example that most people would know is like if an actor starts a singing career.
[13:33] It's like stay in your lane.
[13:34] You don't need to, you know, and then it's the rejection of trying something new that they're not known for.
[13:41] Yeah, yeah.
[13:42] So you can see even in that how restricting that feeling can become.
[13:47] Mm-hmm.
[13:47] If there are these internal messages, who do they think they are?
[13:51] Stay in your lane.
[13:53] Focus on what you can do.
[13:55] You can even feel like in a bodily sense, this sense of contraction and even a shrinking feeling, which is very kind of common.
[14:04] Yeah, yeah.
[14:05] I remember when my first job out of uni was in advertising and advertising splits people up into suits or creatives and you're like one or the other.
[14:14] I was put in the suits category.
[14:16] Really?
[14:16] And yeah, and I was terrible at it.
[14:18] That's surprising.
[14:19] But every now and then as part of that job, you kind of do have to do something a little bit creative and it was always there was so much judgment from the creative path of like,
[14:30] Just leave it to us.
[14:32] Don't even try.
[14:33] You're not supposed to be here.
[14:35] And I think it's had a lasting impact on me.
[14:38] And I think that that's an important point too, is that often our experiences of imposterism are most often informed by our early experiences.
[14:49] And so an experience like that where there may have been genuinely overt messages that say, stay in your lane, what are you doing here?
[14:55] You know, of course you bring that with you into your next, like into the next thing that you do.
[14:59] Yeah.
[15:00] And we can think about this if we go back much, much earlier to,
[15:05] If you have had experiences as a kid that have said things like, you're not good enough for this, you don't belong here, any kind of critical tone, voice in there, that message becomes really internalised.
[15:24] And again, we carry that with us into adulthood.
[15:27] Yeah.
[15:28] Yeah Hi, it's Ryan from The Imperfects And I'm reaching out to you now Because we need your help, gosh darn it Why do we need Sorry, no, I'm just making a plea To the listeners and viewers to ask them to Subscribe to the show in Whichever way they see fit Because it really helps The more subscribers, the better we can make this show Am I right?
[15:50] Yeah, but I don't think we need to, I think we could just ask them politely.
[15:54] Yeah, but if I use the emotional music.
[15:56] I think the music's a bit much.
[15:57] Is it?
[15:57] Who's playing that music?
[15:58] Doesn't matter who's playing the music.
[15:59] The important thing is we're pulling at the heartstrings and asking them to do us a solid.
[16:04] Could we not just ask, like, just ask them straight?
[16:07] Like, it'd really help us if you guys subscribed because we would be able to make more of the show and make the show better.
[16:13] Oh, and not use emotional manipulation.
[16:15] Yeah.
[16:15] Yeah, I reckon.
[16:17] We can give it a go, but I doubt it'll work.
[16:19] How does this intersect with a feeling of belonging?
[16:22] Almost implicitly.
[16:24] They're intimately connected.
[16:25] And if we look at, if we kind of zoom back, and I always reference this in usually all of the episodes, is that we need to also have an understanding from an evolutionary point of view why we would be prone to having this experience.
[16:39] And because, you know, fundamentally it is linked to our yearning and our need to belong.
[16:46] Yeah.
[16:47] This being absolutely crucial for our survival as cave people, for example.
[16:53] So if we think about what happens in imposterism is that it's in essence like a checking.
[16:58] It's a checking of my performance.
[17:02] Am I doing enough?
[17:03] Am I doing enough to stay connected to this group?
[17:08] Am I doing enough to feel like I am valued for being here, that I won't be ostracised?
[17:15] Because at the bottom of the fear of imposterism is that I will be found out and I will be cast out.
[17:23] So you can hear in that even like the evolutionary undertones.
[17:28] And so we could also then look at maybe there actually is something healthy and adaptive about experiencing the doubt.
[17:38] Yeah.
[17:38] What do you mean experiencing the doubt?
[17:41] Okay.
[17:41] So I'll give you an example personally, and this is really interesting in the therapy world in particular, and that is that if the moment that I sit in my office with a client or even here, for example, and believe that I know how to do it all, we have a big problem.
[18:00] Okay.
[18:00] Okay.
[18:02] The state of feeling a little bit doubtful, like I don't know, I don't know this part enough, I'm not entirely sure, or I could learn more here, that's actually really helpful because it prompts more learning.
[18:19] It prompts me to go and gain, for example, in the therapy context, it will prompt me to go and gain supervision and,
[18:26] to enhance my skills.
[18:28] But the second that I am sitting there from a state of complete expert, there is no space in there for curiosity.
[18:36] There's no space for metacognition, so being able to contemplate where I may have gone wrong.
[18:44] So in a situation where there's a person who, like the archetype of someone who, you know, always wants to be right, never wants to be wrong, wants to be seen to know everything, is that like a protection against like...
[19:04] Like the fear of not belonging?
[19:06] Is there an imposter phenomenon in there where they're like, I don't want to be found out as not belonging or not being smart enough to be here, so I'm just going to never admit fault or never admit any flaws or...
[19:21] I mean, it absolutely can be that.
[19:22] You know, this kind of protection against vulnerability and that looks and feels like overt confidence, sometimes even arrogance.
[19:31] So it might be protecting against the, you know, long held wounds, for example, of feeling a sense of inadequacy, of not feeling good enough.
[19:41] So we can have different modes of responding to that core wound there.
[19:44] And that might be like a narcissistic or entitled appearance, for example.
[19:51] Absolutely.
[19:52] The opposite of imposterism or imposter syndrome in that context is what's called the Dunning-Kruger effect.
[19:59] I knew Sonia was doing more than Dancing with the Stars.
[20:05] So this really is a sense of having a greater amount of confidence than your actual competence.
[20:16] So confidence that I know this.
[20:20] is vastly distinct from your actual levels of competence.
[20:26] Yeah.
[20:27] So is this, just to clarify, is this people who claim to know the answer even though they clearly don't?
[20:32] Yes.
[20:32] Okay.
[20:32] Yeah.
[20:33] And the interesting thing about that is that the people that are super confident in their abilities...
[20:41] and actually lack the skills to do the job, for example, actually lack the capacity to know that they don't have the skills to do the job.
[20:51] Oh, whoa.
[20:52] Right.
[20:52] Okay.
[20:53] And I'm going to give you an example.
[20:55] I don't have the names of the researchers off the top of my head, but this particular phenomenon has garnered quite a lot of attention.
[21:05] It's very relevant in the current political world.
[21:08] Right.
[21:09] I will just leave that there.
[21:11] But in the 1990s... God, you could insert so many names there.
[21:18] Okay.
[21:18] There's one big orange one, but yeah.
[21:19] Exactly.
[21:20] So I think if you could think about this as the idea that you don't know what you don't know,
[21:25] And this was partly informed or the rise of this study around this was partly informed by the observation of a man.
[21:34] I think I've told you this story before, but I'm going to tell it again.
[21:37] Of a man in America in Pittsburgh who was arrested for robbing two banks in broad daylight.
[21:46] And when he was arrested, he was totally baffled as to how they recognised him, like how they knew that he was the robber, because...
[21:59] you know, to the police, he had walked in with no mask on, completely not disguised in any way, shape or form.
[22:07] He was really baffled.
[22:08] Like this guy was really baffled and people were baffled that he was baffled.
[22:12] And what they discovered was that he had believed that if he rubbed lemon juice on his face, that that would make him invisible because sometimes you can use lemon juice to erase ink, right?
[22:27] Wow.
[22:28] And so he believed that if I rub it on my face, then now I become invisible.
[22:34] So he could walk in with a freedom to rob the banks.
[22:39] And that's an example of Dunning-Kruger.
[22:42] You don't know what you don't know and you lack the critical skills to be able to evaluate it.
[22:49] God, that's unbelievable, isn't it?
[22:51] Yeah.
[22:51] Yeah.
[22:52] So that's the absolute opposite.
[22:54] That's extreme version, I imagine, of Dunning-Kruger.
[22:58] It is.
[22:59] But we are all, again, vulnerable to Dunning-Kruger because we can't be experiencing expertise across all areas.
[23:09] So a more day-to-day example of that, would it be someone giving very firm opinions on a world issue, even though they have no knowledge of the details?
[23:23] And saying it with great confidence.
[23:25] So that's the really important key part in that is that the confidence is way higher than the actual confidence.
[23:32] Which is really, I mean, it's really common.
[23:33] We all know people who do that.
[23:35] But what's kind of bizarre is to know that they potentially don't know that they don't know.
[23:40] They don't know.
[23:41] They actually think they have all the information.
[23:43] Yeah.
[23:44] Wow.
[23:44] And I think, you know, we can have that experience of Dunning-Gruger and then recognise like, oh, I really didn't know.
[23:53] And so an example that comes to mind for me would be like making birthday cakes for the kids and you see a picture and you're like, oh, yeah, I can do that.
[24:02] And then you're like three hours into this birthday cake and it's looking absolutely nothing like the picture.
[24:10] That's an example there of an overestimation of my abilities and a lack of knowledge about the skill that's required to do it.
[24:17] That's so interesting.
[24:19] So I don't know if this is Dunning-Kruger or this is like my sort of pop psychology, like memes that I've seen that I've taken.
[24:26] So I don't know if this is the correct reference point.
[24:29] I haven't seen all the memes yet, so no spoilers for it, please.
[24:32] Yeah.
[24:34] But one of the things I find with life in general and getting older is that like I think if I look back at my entire freelancing career, I look at myself and think, God, you tried to cover up for how little you knew with a sense of like I know the answers here when I really didn't know what I was doing and I was trying to make it up.
[24:53] And then the older I get, the more I feel like I don't know things.
[24:57] Like I am definitely acquiring knowledge but I move through life
[25:01] And most of the time the weird thing about it for me is that it's actually quite freeing to be admitting that I don't know stuff more and more and more.
[25:08] Yeah.
[25:08] But then also I have this weird kind of like dual thing going on of like I know less and less.
[25:17] Am I just a big fraud?
[25:18] Have I always been a big fraud and a big fake?
[25:21] Or am I just getting more realistic as to the reality of how little I know about the world?
[25:25] Yeah.
[25:26] Well, I think in some ways it's, you know, it is this notion that the more you know, the more you realise you don't know.
[25:32] And that's okay.
[25:34] In fact, that can invite, it can invite more curiosity.
[25:40] It can invite a letting go of the pressure to know everything.
[25:43] Mm-hmm.
[25:44] it can be, I think, a very healthy and adaptive response.
[25:48] But I wonder if we can come back to this experience of feeling like this imposter.
[25:53] I just want to mention that there are obviously, there's a spectrum of this experience and also a very opposite experience where it kind of highlights the fact that over an imposterism, we actually objectively usually have competency and we actually usually have confidence
[26:10] a bank of evidence to say that you can perform at this job, but our confidence doesn't match it.
[26:17] So we've got a mismatch in our belief with our actual competencies.
[26:24] I think about teaching.
[26:25] So my first year as a teacher and anyone's first year as a teacher, you walk into a classroom, you have your own class for the first time.
[26:33] As a 23, 24-year-old, I definitely pretended I knew way more than I did and pretended I was always fine and never really accepted help or support from other teachers anymore.
[26:43] I always wanted to look like I knew exactly what I was doing.
[26:46] But I look back and that was absolutely imposter syndrome.
[26:48] But I look back and I just wish so much I had really lent into the fact that I've never done this before.
[26:54] I wish I'd said that.
[26:57] I wish I'd said I don't know all the time.
[26:58] I wish I'd said, I don't know, I've never done this before.
[27:01] It was the first time I've ever tried it.
[27:03] Then the imposter syndrome wouldn't be there because I would be actually saying, like my experience would be what people are saying is what I was feeling.
[27:11] Mm-hmm.
[27:11] Because the amount of times someone would say, oh, are you comfortable to do this and this?
[27:16] And my answer should have been, I've never done it before.
[27:17] I have no idea.
[27:18] We'll find out.
[27:18] I'll have a go.
[27:19] But I'm like, I may not do it very well because this is my first time.
[27:22] Everyone knows, all the parents know it's your first time as a teacher.
[27:25] The whole school knows it's your first time as a teacher, yet you're trying to pretend that you're on top of everything.
[27:30] You can't be.
[27:30] Like, it's impossible.
[27:31] No.
[27:32] You can't be.
[27:32] And this is such an example too of how vulnerable new grads are or anyone that's entering a new job or new role, that it's actually very understandable and a normal response to new situations with new tasks and new demands.
[27:52] And so, yeah, I want to come to how we could work with that differently.
[27:55] And I want to, before we get there, just acknowledge that
[28:00] the actual experience of imposterism and then also the costs of that too when it becomes really pervasive.
[28:08] So a lot of the research has documented that there is really a cycle of imposterism and usually it starts with there being a cue to a new task first.
[28:20] So you're given this new task or it could be a new job, for example.
[28:25] And what happens then is we get a very quick increase in feelings of anxiety and discomfort.
[28:31] I don't know if I can do this.
[28:34] I'm going to be found out.
[28:35] I don't belong here.
[28:37] So lots of anxious, worried thoughts that show up.
[28:41] And in response to that, we often get one of two behavioural reactions or coping modes.
[28:49] Probably the most common is over-preparation and perfectionistic, unrelenting standard responses.
[28:56] I was not guilty of that hesitation.
[28:57] Yeah.
[29:02] Well, maybe it could be the other one, which is avoidance and procrastination.
[29:05] That feels more familiar to me.
[29:09] Yeah.
[29:09] So when we think about someone that is very, very fearful of being discovered as a fraud, that in order to cope with that fear, they will become over-preparing.
[29:21] So I'm definitely prone to that.
[29:24] And so people will go above and beyond of doing all the preparation, doing lots of practicing.
[29:32] They're up late night, rehearsing, et cetera, et cetera.
[29:36] And you can feel, even as I'm saying that, you can feel this kind of pressure here to perform.
[29:42] So for those people, and it might be true that they're going to do extra professional development, they're doing all the online stuff, so they're really kind of
[29:51] of going overboard in some ways, like really kind of overcompensating for this fear that's here.
[29:58] And so then when the task arrives or when they've completed the task and they complete it successfully, yes, there's a feeling of relief.
[30:05] Phew, I've avoided the...
[30:08] Detection.
[30:09] Exactly.
[30:10] And I've like, thank God I've got through this experience.
[30:13] But what is so key in this is that they're at that point
[30:19] is a failure to attribute the success to your hard work and to your skill but to luck.
[30:26] Oh, yeah.
[30:27] So people that are prone to imposterism will often fail to recognise that their skill and their hard work resulted in this achievement or this outcome.
[30:40] Instead, they believe that it was just by chance that I made it through this.
[30:45] That resonates big time.
[30:48] Yeah.
[30:48] What do you notice with that?
[30:49] Yeah, I've often thought that.
[30:51] I've often thought that I only got, you know, yeah, the podcast is going well, but it's because, you know, Hugh had the idea to do it and I'm sort of just along for the ride and,
[31:02] And don't, you know, I just sort of dismiss, you know, the everything else I've done to get to a point where you wanted to do a podcast with me or whatever, you know, all those things.
[31:13] I don't think about those things.
[31:14] I more think like, oh, God, this is lucky that I'm, you know, hitched to that train and dismiss all the actual work.
[31:24] I've actually done to do a good job or make the thing good, you know.
[31:29] I'm much quicker to jump to like I'm lucky that I was able to get along on that thing.
[31:37] I think that that will speak to so many people's experience, this sense of, you know, when the job is done or when that particular task is done, there's like a relief.
[31:47] But the tricky thing is that when you...
[31:50] get through that particular milestone, task, request, demand, whatever it might be, and you've made it, we then get an increased pressure to keep performing to that degree and an increased fear that now I will be discovered.
[32:09] If I don't put in all that effort every single time.
[32:11] Yeah.
[32:12] Yeah.
[32:12] I'll be found out.
[32:13] I will be found out at some point in time.
[32:15] So there's always this sense of time that at some point in time it's going to come out and it's likely it's going to come out soon.
[32:23] So we get stuck in this really tricky, pervasive cycle of fear, fear,
[32:33] over-preparation, achievement, and then denial of my efforts and my skill level, and then a further pressure to continue to perform to that degree.
[32:46] Yeah.
[32:47] And so you can imagine when you get stuck in that cycle, when you're not able to really internalise, this is really important, when you're unable to internalise your own experience of success,
[33:00] and your own levels of competence and skill, and you attribute it to luck, we just get caught up in a very overwhelming and very debilitating cycle.
[33:11] Just yesterday, maybe the day before, I think it was, where I've been kind of trying to like...
[33:19] I've been doing a lot of journaling recently, a lot of writing, and a lot of this is coming up for me when I'm writing about it.
[33:26] And some people will know that I've talked about it, but some people will know that last year I did my first art exhibition.
[33:34] So that was a huge imposterism, imposter phenomenon moment for me because it's the fear of not being accepted by the art world or whoever.
[33:43] People will think it's weird or who do you think you are?
[33:45] You're putting yourself out there a bit.
[33:46] Putting yourself out there, yeah.
[33:48] And what do you mean by that?
[33:53] So, yeah, so that was a real thing.
[33:55] And like I've always done, I'm judging the success of it based on the feedback.
[34:01] Like do people like it?
[34:03] So what I thought yesterday is like maybe from now on the goal is I want to become my favourite artist.
[34:11] Right.
[34:13] So it's like I want to become, I want to like make things that I love so much.
[34:20] And it kind of seems obvious when you say it like that, but it's actually a huge shift because just naturally my whole life I'm always looking to other people for the validation that the thing that I've done is good.
[34:34] And I'll make something, look to someone that I trust or...
[34:37] Even like mum and dad who's like from such a young age, it's like I want them to like what I'm doing.
[34:42] And if they don't like it, I'm like, oh, okay.
[34:46] It wasn't broad enough or it wasn't accessible enough or constantly changing and taking all these bits of information and data that are often contradictory to...
[34:55] Because what this person likes and this person likes generally could be very, very different things and maybe even very different to things that I like.
[35:03] Yeah.
[35:03] So it's like the only why not just be my favourite artist because there's then that's I'll be so excited.
[35:12] Yeah.
[35:12] Well, I mean, what do you notice when you step into the idea of me being my favourite artist?
[35:19] It's very relieving because I feel like the pressure is still on, but I feel like in a healthy way, like there's still pressure, self-imposed pressure, I guess, to make work that I'm proud of and to do it in a way that I'm proud of and to always just be asking myself, do you love this?
[35:38] And I'm the only judge that matters.
[35:42] in this particular sort of situation.
[35:45] And if I can genuinely honestly say, yes, I love that, then mission accomplished.
[35:50] That's great.
[35:51] And I think that's a really nice kind of like invitation here to really think about, you know, who it's for, you know, why are we doing this?
[36:01] Why are we doing this job?
[36:04] And in fact, if we look at the
[36:07] the emergence of these imposter feelings, the information that that tells us is that I care really deeply about doing this well.
[36:17] And that speaks to something that's valuable to me, something that is important, particularly with jobs that you may have worked really hard to get, for example.
[36:28] The fact that this feeling is here actually tells me that I care.
[36:31] Mm-hmm.
[36:32] And there's nothing wrong with that.
[36:34] It's what we do with that then that most often counts.
[36:40] I mentioned that obviously perfectionistic and unkind of overcompensatory behaviours often show up in response to feeling like an imposter.
[36:49] We can also often move in the opposite direction, which is avoidance and procrastination.
[36:54] That's not an uncommon response to this feeling completely.
[36:57] I've got an example.
[36:57] Yeah, great.
[36:58] If you want an example.
[36:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[36:59] I've done this my whole life but I think to close the loop on the thing I mentioned earlier about advertising, the way you go from being a suit or one of the ways is there's a thing called award school which is like the school for advertising creatives and I was like that's what I'm going to do that.
[37:15] Then I'll be accepted because I'll get into award school, I'll do well, I'll be accepted as a creative person, I can move into that area.
[37:22] And I...
[37:24] I waited till like three days before the thing was due, like pushing it away, didn't want to do it.
[37:30] Then I finally did it and I showed it to someone who I like respected and they were like, it's pretty good.
[37:36] When's it due?
[37:36] And I'm like, oh, in two days.
[37:38] And he's like...
[37:39] People usually spend about six months preparing for award school and trying to get in.
[37:43] Like, we'll do our best.
[37:44] But like, and I look back then, that's exactly what I was doing.
[37:49] And then when I didn't get in, it was confirmation that you don't belong.
[37:53] Exactly.
[37:54] Yeah.
[37:55] Exactly.
[37:55] And so it works in the opposite ways that the attribution there of an experience of failure is that I'm not good enough.
[38:02] Rather than the attribution being that I didn't put the work in.
[38:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[38:06] Well, it speaks to your core.
[38:08] It's like it's who I am rather than the work that I do.
[38:10] Yeah, exactly.
[38:12] But we can also look at the function of avoidance there.
[38:15] So if there's something, a job that's really important to you, a task that's required, and you know it's going to bring with it an idea or a yearning to do it perfectly or to do it super well.
[38:28] Yeah.
[38:30] there's an immense amount of pressure that comes with that, right?
[38:33] And that pressure feels very overwhelming.
[38:37] And the thought of sitting down to create this thing that is a masterpiece or that is brilliant or that is highly regarded, that feeling is so aversive that we will put it off.
[38:48] I don't want to turn towards this feeling because it's so deeply uncomfortable.
[38:53] I get exposed to my own fears of failure there.
[38:56] So I just don't do it.
[38:57] Mm-hmm.
[38:58] But we can obviously see how self-perpetuating that cycle becomes.
[39:02] Now I have less time.
[39:03] I have more internal judgment.
[39:06] There's more of a threat response that's here.
[39:08] And I actually can't produce at that point in time quite potentially the quality of the work that I wanted to, you know, at the start.
[39:18] So, you know, whether it's overcompensation or avoidance, we can see that there are some potentially really detrimental outcomes there for us and particularly for our sense of worth, sense of self-worth.
[39:30] Yeah.
[39:31] The cost interests me, like the costs of living with imposter syndrome for a long term point of view, physical, mental, there's a lot, isn't there?
[39:42] Yeah.
[39:43] There's a huge amount.
[39:46] You know, burnout is one of them, absolutely.
[39:48] For me, it was a very sore anus.
[39:52] Oh.
[39:54] There he is.
[39:54] It was not on my list.
[39:57] It was not on my list of costs, I'll tell you.
[40:02] There'll be a handful of people, a lot of people listening going, yes.
[40:05] Okay.
[40:06] Definitely.
[40:06] Say more.
[40:08] You tell me if I'm wrong, but my first year as a teacher, I remember waking up one morning and I felt like,
[40:16] My part of the time had shoved a cricket stump up my bottom.
[40:19] I have never felt pain like it.
[40:23] And I screamed and woke her up and said, what's happening?
[40:27] And it was obvious that she wasn't doing that to me.
[40:30] And I said, I have no idea.
[40:32] And then the pain was gone.
[40:33] I went, what the hell was that?
[40:36] And then nothing.
[40:37] And then about three days later, I was standing up teaching maths to my class.
[40:42] And I thought someone had stabbed me in the bottom with scissors.
[40:46] And I dropped to my knees and screamed in front of like all the kids.
[40:51] I had tears in my face, in my eyes.
[40:54] And I had to like go into the resources room and then it was gone.
[40:57] And then my mind went to the worst possible.
[40:59] I was like, oh, God, this is bad.
[41:01] I've got something very bad here.
[41:02] But anyway, I ended up saying to the doctor and she said, oh, yeah, you have very common with medical students, law students and one primary school teacher, obviously, it's called proctolactifugiax.
[41:11] That's where every out of stress, every single muscle in your anus.
[41:18] Why is that word so funny?
[41:21] I can't wait till this comes back to imposter syndrome.
[41:25] I can't wait to see how you bring this back.
[41:27] Oh, no, it doesn't.
[41:28] No, it doesn't.
[41:30] Every single muscle there spasms.
[41:34] And the doctor said it is like that is just stress.
[41:39] And when I actually think more about it, it wasn't so much stress.
[41:41] It was just I was desperately trying to pretend that I was like I knew what I was doing and I was not.
[41:47] Like I was comfortable, I'm here, I belong here.
[41:49] And I didn't.
[41:49] And so I was like, if you've just started teaching, you don't belong in a classroom, like as in you do, but you have no evidence in your brain that you actually belong there.
[41:59] And so I think it was like, and it's probably the same with when she said medical students and law students going into a stressful profession and pretending that you know what's going on when 95% of the time you have no idea what's really going on.
[42:11] And I wonder if that's what led to...
[42:13] I wonder.
[42:13] Yeah.
[42:16] I think we're all wondering.
[42:17] Well, I feel...
[42:19] If that's why.
[42:23] And I just wonder.
[42:25] Whether or not it's connected to the episode that we're doing tonight.
[42:32] Before Em answers, I feel like I have to, this is not dissimilar to an episode years ago when Ryan, you mentioned that you take hair pills when Hugh said he'd take hair pills.
[42:43] I feel like I have to admit that I have that too.
[42:46] Really?
[42:46] Yeah.
[42:47] Sorry, that was it.
[42:48] No.
[42:49] Wow.
[42:49] I've had it throughout my life.
[42:51] There you go.
[42:52] At moments of stress.
[42:55] Yeah.
[42:55] Have you ever known pain like it?
[42:57] It's pretty, yeah, to me I get...
[43:03] I get images.
[43:05] Do you know Vlad the Impaler?
[43:06] Have you ever heard that historical reference?
[43:09] Yeah.
[43:10] I think he was someone in Europe who killed people by putting him on a spike.
[43:15] That's what it feels like.
[43:16] That's better.
[43:16] Fall slowly on the spike.
[43:18] Yeah, that's what it feels like.
[43:18] That's to me what it feels like.
[43:20] Getting floated.
[43:21] Sorry Emma for taking stuff you're about to go into.
[43:22] LAUGHTER
[43:29] Look at her notes Oh yeah it is It's Vlad's next Vlad the Impaler Vlad the Impaler's next up Sorry Sorry It ruined your flow Yeah so no I know what you mean And I've experienced it Throughout my life And I wrote about it in my book And I've had a lot of people Come up to me and go Just I had no idea what was happening to me I just ignored it Because it was so awful And I was like I can't I'm too embarrassed To ever talk about this But I haven't felt it in years And I haven't felt imposter syndrome Well there you go Did you have it Did you have it when you were Working in advertising?
[43:56] I reckon I've had it intermittently.
[43:59] I can't pinpoint it to specific times, but I've had it since my 20s.
[44:05] Yeah, probably since full-time employment every now and then.
[44:08] You just did an arm action as if it's to say, case closed.
[44:15] What more evidence do you need?
[44:17] I have also experienced a lot of other emotions apart from imposterism at that time, so I couldn't.
[44:23] Worth looking into, though.
[44:24] But I didn't want you to be alone in that statement.
[44:26] Thank you.
[44:26] You're not alone.
[44:27] I appreciate that.
[44:28] Brotherly love.
[44:30] No, actually, to be honest, in all seriousness.
[44:33] Vlad the Impaler.
[44:37] If we think about what's happening physiologically,
[44:41] that we're getting activation of the stress and the threat response.
[44:45] So we are going to experience physiological symptoms that indicate and tell us we are very stressed and overwhelmed.
[44:52] Our case is closed.
[44:53] Yeah.
[44:53] And if you think about it, I don't want to go too much into detail here, but contraction of muscles is a response to threat.
[45:01] Okay, yeah.
[45:01] Right.
[45:02] So like things like I don't have any information about your conditions.
[45:08] Do you have any notes on cricket stumps?
[45:12] But things like when we're feeling really stressed, you will often get really tight neck and shoulders and that's because your muscles are actually contracting in response to the overwhelm.
[45:22] So we start to lift our shoulders, our neck gets tighter, we hunch over.
[45:26] It's a very natural, normal response to a perception of threat.
[45:30] It's there with a good evolutionary purpose and function.
[45:34] But it's an example that our body and our minds are intricately, intimately linked.
[45:39] They're not occurring separately.
[45:42] When we're experiencing stress, our body is experiencing it.
[45:46] And so I think that's a good kind of practice in there just to be able to tune into what are your signs that you're really struggling with, like imposterism, for example.
[45:56] How frequently are you having colds and flu?
[45:59] How frequently are you needing to take sick leave?
[46:01] I mean, they're all good indicators like that something needs to be addressed to you.
[46:05] Yeah.
[46:05] Okay.
[46:06] One of the things I find amazing about imposterism or I think the feeling of when you're in a group working on something and someone else says that they don't know or like that I don't know what to do here and that we don't know.
[46:19] Yes.
[46:20] It's just the best feeling in the world.
[46:22] And I've kind of wish when I've seen other people do it, I kind of want to be that person to say that to people.
[46:28] To be the first one to kind of put your hand up and say like, I don't know what to do here.
[46:31] Yeah, yeah.
[46:32] Or we don't know, I've never done it before, we've never done it before, let's see, let's find out.
[46:37] Like that kind of thing.
[46:38] Because I feel like it's such a, it's similar to when Esther Perel was on and she was talking about apologising and she's saying the person that apologises first has the power.
[46:48] I kind of feel like the person who says, I don't know, first has the power.
[46:52] Oh, that's cool.
[46:52] Yeah.
[46:53] And what is so interesting about what you're saying there is that in some ways the antidote to imposterism is authenticity.
[47:01] Oh, yeah.
[47:02] Oh, yeah.
[47:02] Okay.
[47:03] Yeah, that's great.
[47:04] Yeah.
[47:04] That I can freely be myself and show up as myself.
[47:07] Yeah.
[47:08] Because in imposterism, there's a fear of being discovered for who I am and not worthy of being here.
[47:14] It's just being truthful in the moment really, isn't it?
[47:17] Just being truthful about where you're at and what you know, what you don't know.
[47:21] It's so much easier.
[47:24] So we'll get to a little bit more about how we can work with this feeling.
[47:27] I do just want to mention a couple of other costs that come with when this feeling really takes hold.
[47:33] And we can get really pushed around by those internal kind of negative thoughts, predictions and worries.
[47:40] And one of the really obvious ones is that when that experience is strongly or tightly held, it can mean that you're less likely to put your hand up for...
[47:52] promotions for new opportunities because you're too fearful that I will, I will be discovered even more.
[47:58] Yeah.
[47:58] Um, so often when that, that feeling is here, it can mean that you're unwilling to step outside of your comfort zone.
[48:06] And the tricky thing about that is that the less we step outside of our comfort zone, the smaller our world becomes.
[48:12] Um, um,
[48:13] the thing that promotes confidence is actually action.
[48:17] So, and we speak about this a lot in therapy and this idea that in order to gain confidence, we have to take the action first.
[48:25] So confidence only arrives from doing the thing rather than confidence coming first, unless you're done in Kruger.
[48:33] But most often we have to do the action to have the feeling.
[48:39] So that is kind of an invitation in here to say like, well, can I take a risk?
[48:45] Can I put my hand up not knowing how I'll go with that?
[48:50] So I guess the question is, well, how are we going to work with this when this shows up?
[48:53] Because we know that there can be a really debilitating cost to having this experience really pervasively.
[48:59] Yeah.
[49:00] And I think we've kind of already touched on a couple of things, but I think I'm just going to give you some really concrete examples about how to work with this.
[49:07] And I'm going to side note.
[49:11] Obviously, therapy and undertaking a therapeutic process is going to be really helpful for those really more deeply held experiences around self-worth.
[49:23] that often sit at the core here of why imposterism is showing up.
[49:26] So I'm just going to put that to the side and I want to come back to some really practical things that can help us kind of in the moment.
[49:32] How does that sound?
[49:33] Yeah, okay.
[49:34] So the first thing is that we actually want to learn the facts.
[49:38] So this might be a very concrete practice that you do where you write down all the skills that you do have
[49:45] all the, like if, for example, like all the qualifications you have, all the professional development seminars you've undertaken, actually just write them all down.
[49:54] Achievements.
[49:55] Yeah.
[49:56] So we then have a look at not interpretations but simply facts.
[50:00] These are the facts.
[50:01] I have this number of degrees.
[50:04] I've done this number of professional development seminars.
[50:07] I've got this feedback from these supervisors.
[50:10] So we actually just start to then keep a log on.
[50:13] of all the positive pieces of information and evidence to say, I am skilled enough here.
[50:20] Okay.
[50:20] That's just one really practical thing.
[50:24] The thing I think that is probably the most profound, and we've already kind of really touched on this, is how we share this feeling.
[50:33] So I know we've spoken about shame quite a bit, but most often imposter feelings bring with it a shame, that they're kind of running very closely together.
[50:44] So I'm fearful that I'm going to be discovered as unworthy.
[50:47] Yeah.
[50:48] And that when that feeling arrives, we know that shame tells you to stay quiet because why would I want to tell someone that I don't think I belong here because they might agree.
[51:00] So we don't ever want to expose this feeling that I'm having for fear that it could be true.
[51:05] Yeah.
[51:06] Okay.
[51:07] Yeah.
[51:07] But what we actually know is that we need to speak the shame, to speak these fears that I'm holding.
[51:14] We're the safe enough person.
[51:17] Yeah, it's like this hope that you can, if you're feeling the imposterism and you bring it up, the fear is that like it's like I'm pulling the wool over everyone's eyes and if I say it then they'll suddenly realise that, oh, yeah, you shouldn't be here.
[51:33] What are you doing here?
[51:33] Yeah, exactly, exactly.
[51:35] This is kind of like how the mind is kind of working to protect us in some way.
[51:40] So there is an invitation, I think,
[51:43] to speak to someone about the fact that you're struggling with this feeling.
[51:47] Now, in an ideal world, for me, it would be that you could speak to a colleague or a supervisor or a boss, but we don't always know if they've earned the right to hear that necessarily or that they're safe enough to respond to that appropriately.
[52:05] But if you can say, look, you know, I've got to be honest, you know, I'm new to this job, I am struggling a little bit with feeling like an imposter.
[52:13] What we often get, and this kind of comes back to Adam Grant's original clip, is that the people around us can most often be really objective observers and sources of information about the fact that we are competent.
[52:29] And so really in that sense, we have this opportunity to seek external feedback about the fact that you do belong here and that you're demonstrating that you do belong.
[52:40] So there's a great potential for that there.
[52:42] And if you're the person, if someone comes to you in a workplace and they say to you, I don't feel like I belong, I feel like I'm an imposter, what's the best response?
[52:54] Oh, normalising it.
[52:55] Like for me it would be, and I supervise quite a few psychology, early career psychologists, and I mean I often share like, yeah, I totally get that.
[53:04] I had that too.
[53:06] I absolutely understand.
[53:07] Like, you know, I've had this experience.
[53:10] I was a beginner once as well because everyone was a beginner once.
[53:13] So I think that feels like a really nice normalising and validating statement of, yeah, I was there too once.
[53:21] I had those same feelings.
[53:23] But then do you then tell them why they do belong or no?
[53:27] Because if I had the imposterism and I went and spoke to someone, I'm desperately wanting them to say like, no, no, no, you do belong because you've done this and you've done this and you've done this.
[53:35] Yeah, well, I think you can as a boss or a leader or a supervisor.
[53:39] I think, of course, you can provide feedback to say, no, look, I'm really happy with how you're, you know, how you're performing.
[53:45] I think we can provide feedback.
[53:48] Absolutely.
[53:48] I think that that's very normal.
[53:50] It's different from, you know, being with a friend.
[53:53] You know, we're not, you know, in an employment context.
[53:57] I think it's very appropriate to be giving actual feedback.
[54:00] about someone's performance there.
[54:03] And for the person that's asking for feedback, you could ask, you know, what do you think I could work on?
[54:08] So we're really starting to promote more of a growth mindset rather than more of a fixed mindset which promotes kind of like this all or nothing, I'm a failure, I'm good enough dichotomy.
[54:24] Okay.
[54:25] So I think kind of going in with a curiosity mindset
[54:28] I'm struggling with this feeling.
[54:30] Is there, you know, could you give me some feedback on my performance?
[54:33] Can you point me in the direction of, you know, some further development?
[54:38] Is there anything I can be working on?
[54:39] So it's very curiosity-led and also indicating that this is important to me, which is also so reinforcing for a leader to hear.
[54:49] Yeah.
[54:50] Yeah.
[54:50] Yeah.
[54:51] I imagine you mentioned the friend thing there.
[54:54] I think I imagine that'd be difficult because if like, if someone, I can see a friend coming to me who like doesn't feel comfortable at their job and they like catch up with them for a beer or coffee or something and they're like, oh, I'm struggling at work.
[55:07] Like I don't know what I'm like.
[55:08] I feel like I don't know what I'm doing.
[55:09] I feel like I shouldn't be there and I don't know what they do.
[55:13] Like, and I'm like, well, I don't know, maybe you don't deserve to be there or maybe you do.
[55:17] Like I have no idea about your competency at work.
[55:19] I like you as a person.
[55:20] I think you're great.
[55:21] So I assume you're looking at this poorly.
[55:23] But what do you say there when you have no objective knowledge of the situation?
[55:28] Well, I think first of all, there is immense power in that person speaking it for a start.
[55:33] So I think we may often miss that.
[55:36] the actual sharing is very helpful and very therapeutic.
[55:40] So just having this trusting conversation with you and naming my experience.
[55:46] You know, we know, I've said a million times, naming to tame, very, very helpful just by itself.
[55:54] But then, of course, as a friend, you can meet that with, again, like validation and empathy.
[55:59] Like that feels really hard.
[56:02] But you also know your friend.
[56:04] You know, I think in those circumstances you can offer some feedback.
[56:08] You're like, I know you work really hard.
[56:11] I know that you have qualified in all of these things.
[56:15] I think you're wonderful.
[56:17] What are you going to listen to?
[56:18] Are you going to listen to that internal dialogue or when is it time, you wouldn't say this as a friend but more of a therapist, when is it time to take in all of the positive feedback that you're actually getting?
[56:30] Yeah.
[56:31] Yeah.
[56:32] I think I've had this a lot recently because a very good friend of Penny and mine, Nat, is in her first year as an OT and she'll often say to us, oh, it's the worst imposter syndrome today.
[56:42] And I just feel like just saying, yeah, because you're a good person.
[56:45] Like you're in your first year of a job and you're doing really important work.
[56:49] Yes.
[56:49] And because you're a good person, you're aware of the things you've not felt comfortable with yet.
[56:53] So like you feel like I feel like if you didn't feel imposter syndrome in this position.
[56:57] Yeah.
[56:57] Yeah.
[56:58] You're like, well, that's a very big false sense of confidence.
[57:02] Absolutely.
[57:03] And you're doing important work.
[57:04] Yeah.
[57:04] Got a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a
[57:20] you know, and for ourselves when we're suffering with it too, is to really, I mean, obviously I'm going to say that we need to hold a compassionate lens here to this, but also just the fact that it's understandable.
[57:30] There is an understandability about this experience.
[57:33] It tells me that I care very much.
[57:36] And it can, with some wisdom, help promote growth and connection with other people.
[57:43] And yeah, like responding in that way of like, yeah, of course, I get it.
[57:46] I think the response is like, oh, that's nice.
[57:49] I'm a good person.
[57:50] That's like your first thing.
[57:51] I've just found out I'm a really good person.
[57:52] Yeah.
[57:52] It's kind of like when I've, I don't know if you've experienced this or if you've experienced this as parents, but when I've expressed, I feel like I might be failing as a dad or something.
[58:01] So often people will say the very fact that you're questioning these things means you're doing a good job.
[58:07] And I kind of feel like it's a similar thing.
[58:08] I agree.
[58:09] In that like if you're feeling like that is indication that it's not as bad as it is.
[58:14] Yeah.
[58:14] Yeah.
[58:15] And actually what we know is that usually with time that feeling either becomes less or it has less of a grip around us.
[58:25] And we start to actually hopefully begin to internalise the real pieces of evidence that say I can do this.
[58:32] So time is a big one that can be most obviously very helpful.
[58:36] I think I want to really put a big shout out to the role of being a mentor when, this is going to sound weird, when you have imposter feelings.
[58:49] So let's just say you're a year into your job.
[58:53] So you've been there for a sufficient amount of time, but you really kind of tuned into this internal experience.
[59:00] Actually, mentoring, tutoring, assisting someone more junior to you can be a great, great platform to recognise the skills you do have.
[59:11] Oh, that's so true.
[59:14] Yeah, every now and again when I've met with someone and they've asked to, you know, they're trying to get into the industry or something.
[59:22] And you don't, because you're sort of just always in the thick of doing the job or doing what you do and worrying about doing a good enough job, it's very rare that you actually can sit down and like talk about the things you do know.
[59:33] It's kind of like the times whenever I've been asked to do a talk or something and you have to talk about your work or, you know, people ask you questions about it.
[59:42] It's like, yeah.
[59:43] Oh, I actually know quite a bit about this.
[59:46] Yeah.
[59:47] I was pretty impressive.
[59:50] Yeah.
[59:50] It's a confidence boost.
[59:51] Yeah, absolutely.
[59:52] And it is, it's very reinforcing about, oh, yeah, actually, I do have this knowledge.
[59:57] I do have this skill.
[59:59] And I have to also acknowledge the benefit of the reverse experience.
[1:00:05] There's some really great research that talks about the importance of what's called a near-peer mentor.
[1:00:13] Yeah.
[1:00:14] So a near peer is someone that is really only like a year out, like or early enough in their career to you where you're starting.
[1:00:24] So sometimes when we talk about mentoring, we might talk about finding a mentor that is 20, 30 years your senior.
[1:00:30] And so they've lived their whole career already and they're offering wisdom, yes, but.
[1:00:37] But sometimes with that kind of gap in age and experience, it's very hard for the mentee to see how they got there.
[1:00:46] Yeah, yeah.
[1:00:47] But if you have a near peer, there's a very short gap to demonstrate how it is that they got there.
[1:00:53] And it's much more tangible for people to see that there is a pathway for me to get to that place of greater confidence and confidence.
[1:01:03] Yeah.
[1:01:03] So it works both as the mentee and the mentor.
[1:01:07] I wonder if there's not I'm sure there would be somewhere but like Tinder for mentors you know where you can kind of like you're matched up with like the right where it's like do you want a near peer, do you want a far peer like what age, what industry that could be really helpful yeah
[1:01:24] It's also a dynamic that we're kind of used to because I think when you go through school, your like mentors or heroes are only a year or two above you.
[1:01:32] And you're used to that, like looking up to someone and you see how they've done the year above you or they see what they've achieved.
[1:01:38] It's like, oh, I'll try and do what they've done.
[1:01:40] Yeah.
[1:01:41] The steps feel very concrete and very clear as opposed to nebulous or vague or just way too big.
[1:01:48] So absolutely, I think that that can be a really helpful way to combat these impostery feelings.
[1:01:55] Um, there's, I mean, there's so much more that I could go into, um, obviously being able to hold, um, a compassionate response to this little part that's feeling really fearful is, is really profoundly important.
[1:02:09] Um, there is.
[1:02:11] Like I said, there's so many more things, but there is one particular practice that I think can be helpful.
[1:02:16] And that's actually celebrating success.
[1:02:20] So I may have spoken about this in other contexts, but so often when we have been working really hard towards a particular goal, when we get there, yes, we may feel relief, but often we just move on very quickly to the next thing.
[1:02:35] And I so genuinely believe that when we get to the point of success, we need to pause to soak it in.
[1:02:43] And in that moment, there is a real opportunity to reflect upon what did I do to get here?
[1:02:48] And how can I also more somatically and psychologically internalise this good feedback?
[1:02:57] Yeah.
[1:02:59] And so there are a number of different practices that you can do.
[1:03:02] There's a practice called taking in the good, which is like a meditation practice.
[1:03:07] Rick Hansen, who I have spoken about a billion times, he has a beautiful book called Positive Neuroplasticity.
[1:03:15] And that in there talks about this kind of notion of being able to really internalise and to take in this feel good feeling of having achieved it.
[1:03:25] And that when we internalise that, we can then use it as a resource for when I feel anxious or worried in the future.
[1:03:32] Yeah.
[1:03:33] Um, but being able to like some people do things like keeping a, it's going to sound weird, but keeping a log book or a little collection of positive feedback from people.
[1:03:43] And when you're feeling doubtful, you go back and read it.
[1:03:47] Um, that can be helpful.
[1:03:48] Just kind of like really soaking in that.
[1:03:51] Wow.
[1:03:51] Yes, I've done this.
[1:03:53] And I did put in a lot of hard work.
[1:03:56] Yeah, that's a great idea.
[1:03:58] Yeah, love it.
[1:03:59] There's one more thing I wanted to add.
[1:04:01] We've spoken a lot about, obviously, about how we cope with this feeling as individuals.
[1:04:05] But if we come full circle back to the beginning where I mentioned the role of the culture in which we work.
[1:04:13] Yeah.
[1:04:13] And so I have to really emphasise that as companies, as entrepreneurs,
[1:04:19] industries as particular workplaces, we too have a responsibility to onboard belonging.
[1:04:26] So true.
[1:04:27] Yeah.
[1:04:27] So that it's not just the onus is on the individual, but actually how do we create an environment where people feel free to learn?
[1:04:36] to feel free to come to us when they're feeling unsure or doubtful, I mean, really ultimately it's so good for the bottom line in the end.
[1:04:44] It improves staff retention.
[1:04:46] It improves absenteeism, sick leave.
[1:04:50] It actually results in greater performance in general.
[1:04:54] So there is an imperative here for the organisations to pay attention to how we cultivate belonging so that people can move through this feeling properly.
[1:05:04] of imposterism and actually really function at their full potential.
[1:05:08] It's also just a really good thing to do for the business as far as, not as far as like encouraging them to feel, yes, you want to encourage them to feel like they belong, but also you will gain so much.
[1:05:17] Like one of the youngest staff members at Resilience Project, I'm always asking her what she thinks because her perspective is, it comes from she's much more,
[1:05:26] out in the world than I am.
[1:05:28] And whilst she might not have been doing the work I've met her for as long, she's got a very different perspective and her perspective on things is so, well, you guys all know that, she's amazing.
[1:05:35] But I just, I love her thoughts on the world.
[1:05:38] She's a great person and hearing what she thinks is amazing
[1:05:42] Yes, hopefully it helps her feel more like she belongs, but also it's great for us in providing material that resonates with what we do with people in a way that helps.
[1:05:53] And it doesn't matter that she's been doing it for not as long as the rest of us.
[1:05:57] She's a wonderful person and she's very smart.
[1:06:00] Yeah, that's spot on.
[1:06:01] Yeah.
[1:06:02] I also assume, I think to assume if you manage people, just assume that a large percentage of them don't feel like they belong there.
[1:06:09] Yes.
[1:06:09] I reckon.
[1:06:09] I think that's a great, yeah, it's better to have that assumption than the opposite.
[1:06:14] Yeah, absolutely.
[1:06:15] And I think also just believing that they'll feel like they belong naturally, I think that doesn't really happen.
[1:06:21] I think you have to put an effort.
[1:06:22] Yeah, absolutely right.
[1:06:23] It makes me think about when I first started, when I was a kid and I started playing footy for like a club football club,
[1:06:31] club as opposed to just the school footy.
[1:06:34] And going into like my first game, going into the change rooms of a new footy club, like everyone just assumes that you'll figure it out.
[1:06:44] But it's terrifying.
[1:06:46] Terrifying.
[1:06:48] And to know where you fit, you know, like these guys have been playing together for a while.
[1:06:52] It's so scary.
[1:06:53] But to assume that every new player is going to have this feeling of imposterism and to kind of meet that and make them feel welcome would make a huge difference.
[1:07:03] I would have taken even more Speckys.
[1:07:05] Exactly.
[1:07:09] Exactly.
[1:07:10] Just saying.
[1:07:11] Yeah.
[1:07:14] That could be the name of your book.
[1:07:15] Yeah.
[1:07:15] Speckies.
[1:07:16] I would have taken more Speckies.
[1:07:17] I would have taken even more Speckies.
[1:07:19] But we do actually have, it's probably worth mentioning that we do have some episodes on belonging.
[1:07:25] True.
[1:07:25] For people that want to learn more.
[1:07:27] So you did it.
[1:07:28] No, no episodes on Speckies.
[1:07:30] Yeah.
[1:07:31] Not yet, not yet.
[1:07:32] You did an amazing episode, Em, and we also had Rana Hussain on to talk about belonging.
[1:07:36] So there's two great episodes we'll put in the show notes.
[1:07:38] Yeah.
[1:07:39] I wish so much I had heard this episode when I was – it should be one of the last things you do in your final year of being used to Em talk about imposter syndrome because it's something that most people will – I feel like it's a thing you'll probably have it throughout your life but it's most prevalent throughout sort of 20s and as you're trying new things.
[1:07:56] Yeah, exactly.
[1:07:57] It even could be in like, I'm just thinking about all the things that you start doing as an adult that you never did.
[1:08:03] You're like, oh my God, I'm doing an adult thing.
[1:08:04] Like even being in a relationship, things like that where you're like, oh, this is, I'm doing an adult thing.
[1:08:09] I don't know.
[1:08:09] I have to pretend I know what I'm doing.
[1:08:12] So I feel like this should be part of every uni degree, just like a bit on imposter syndrome that you'll experience it.
[1:08:17] And if you do, you're a good person and here's what you can do with it.
[1:08:19] Yeah.
[1:08:21] And you keep saying amazing stuff and we love you.
[1:08:23] Oh, I love you guys.
[1:08:24] Ditto.
[1:08:25] Thanks for having me.
[1:08:27] Thanks, Em.
[1:08:27] Yeah.
[1:08:28] See you next time soon.
[1:08:28] Excellent.
[1:08:29] Bye.
[1:08:29] Bye-bye.
[1:08:31] If you love Dr. Em and have always thought, God, I'd love to ask her a question, then you should jump across to a little more Imperfects.
[1:08:39] And so Lauren says, Why am I feeling more overwhelmed and reactive as a second-time mum with my newborn?
[1:08:47] And how can I manage the internalised anger?
[1:08:50] We just had a question from Little Morning Perfect's listener and it's, as a parent who shares custody, I feel crushing guilt if I don't enjoy every single minute during my weeks with my kids.
[1:09:00] How do I stop the guilt from making the burnout worse?
[1:09:03] And she says, I have always struggled with seeking external validation.
[1:09:07] I would love to hear Dr. M's perspective on this along with any advice you may have on managing it.
[1:09:12] So come and join the community at patreon.com slash theimperfects, or you can subscribe at Apple Podcasts.
[1:09:19] If you want a little more but don't want to pay any more, then you can join our newsletter at theimperfects.com.au.
[1:09:24] And while you're there, you'll be able to see the names and faces of all the incredible people who helped make this show.
[1:09:29] A show made on the lands of the Wurundjeri, Woiwurrung people, and we pay our respects to elders past and present.

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