# Lauren Zonfrillo - Grief: The Shittest Greatest Gift

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 4 May 2025, 1 h 22 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/eooffb9rgnyepji4phu1dqo6.mp3

Lauren Zonfrillo knows grief - intimately, devastatingly, and meaningfully. Almost two years since the sudden death of her husband Jock, Lauren describes grief as the ‘shittest, greatest gift’, and how she navigated unimaginable loss while continuing to parent two young children. In this episode, Lauren shares what she learnt about herself in the days, weeks, and months since Jock’s passing. Discussing with Hugh, Ryan and Josh about her evolving relationship with spirituality, Lauren vulnerably shares how she is beginning to reconcile her identity as a mother, widow, and person in her own right. Lauren, thank you for such a special episode. If you would like to watch this full episode on YouTube, follow this link: https://bit.ly/4mi4mkD 📖 Things to read: • Till Death Do Us Part - Lauren Zonfrillo - https://bit.ly/4m7Dy6z • Last Shot - Jock Zonfrillo - https://bit.ly/4iCyfJi • Finding Meaning - David Kessler - https://amzn.to/44QgNNU ☎️ If you, or someone you know, is struggling with grief, these are some great resources to start with • National Centre for Childhood Grief - https://bit.ly/4iEMvkP • Griefline - 1300 845 745 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase the Vulnerabilitea House Cards here - https://bit.ly/3Cx4tGP 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - https://bit.ly/3Cx4tGP 🩷To subscribe to the Vulnerabilitea-mail weekly newsletter, join through our website - www.theimperfects.com.au 🩵To join our patreon community, A Little More Imperfect, follow this link - patreon.com/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

## Transcript

[0:01] For Isla's birthday, she blew out a candle and she said to me, I wish that Papa would come back so you don't have to cry anymore.
[0:08] Al feels like I give all the wishes in my heart that Papa would come back.
[0:12] And it's a beautiful thought and I let them have it because they're children.
[0:16] And I go, that is beautiful, I wish for that too.
[0:18] But you know Papa can never, ever come home.
[0:21] Because forever is so impossible for a child to get their head around.
[0:26] We're all imperfect.
[0:28] And on this podcast, I'll be chatting with a variety of interesting people who are willing to make themselves vulnerable by sharing their own struggles and imperfections.
[0:37] I'm Hugh Van Kylenberg from The Resilience Project.
[0:39] And I'm Ryan Shelton from my mum.
[0:41] And I'm Josh from Hugh's Mum.
[0:44] And this is The Imperfects.
[0:48] Well, today's episode is definitely in a category of...
[0:51] I thought we'd have categories, but we've got a category that was special...
[0:55] It would very much be in that draw.
[0:56] Yeah, I don't know.
[0:57] Hopefully there aren't too many episodes in the not special, not very special category.
[1:03] No, just be like some might be, you know, fun and frivolity.
[1:06] Oh, gotcha.
[1:07] Some might be under the, you know, like Steve Curry was joyous.
[1:11] Yes, yeah.
[1:12] This is special.
[1:14] Absolutely.
[1:15] That's a very, very good point.
[1:16] We don't have any unspecial episodes.
[1:18] No, we don't.
[1:18] Let's be very clear.
[1:19] We don't.
[1:20] So we have a chat today with Lauren Zonfrillo, who is a widow to Jock Zonfrillo from MasterChef.
[1:28] I mean, in her own right, has achieved so much.
[1:31] Incredible, incredible person.
[1:34] You might have seen her on Gruen Transfer, for those of you who are fans of Gruen.
[1:39] Her company, Pulse Collective, has won many awards for marketing and PR.
[1:42] Yeah.
[1:43] And she's won awards herself.
[1:45] I think it was like...
[1:46] Yes, yeah.
[1:47] I mean, you say it in the intro, but it's like young businesswoman of the year.
[1:51] Yeah, yeah.
[1:52] She's amazing.
[1:53] As soon as she walks into the studio, it had that feel like this is a really amazing person.
[1:58] I thought you were going to say, this is the young businesswoman of the year.
[2:03] You can just tell.
[2:05] She just has that young businesswoman of the year energy.
[2:08] No, I was just looking at the special drawer the second she walked in going, I know where this episode's going to go.
[2:14] I know exactly where this will go.
[2:15] Yeah.
[2:15] I don't even know where these drawers are.
[2:17] You should tell me where these drawers are.
[2:18] I'll show you later, yeah.
[2:19] I think you described her energy as being Dr. M adjacent.
[2:23] It absolutely is.
[2:25] Charisma and grace.
[2:27] Yeah.
[2:28] Absolutely.
[2:29] Yeah.
[2:30] Yeah.
[2:32] I don't know why I felt like I needed to pause after saying that.
[2:36] Hold some applause.
[2:36] Yeah.
[2:37] I summed her up.
[2:38] It did feel like a very big star.
[2:39] Charisma and Grace.
[2:41] Hmm?
[2:41] Yeah.
[2:41] What do you reckon?
[2:44] How does that land with you?
[2:46] It could be a name for a cafe as well.
[2:48] Not one that you'd go to.
[2:49] No.
[2:50] It'd be a good name for a cafe that you walk past all the time.
[2:54] I hope there's someone called Charisma and Grace.
[2:56] I hope not.
[2:56] Because I'm going to have to edit this out.
[2:58] Yeah.
[2:58] True.
[3:00] But we certainly felt, yeah, very grateful that she would spend the time with us because we have had people asking us for a long time, could we do an episode on grief?
[3:11] And which we've really wanted to do, but just sort of wanted to do it really well.
[3:17] And we do feel like this conversation is, I feel like it's a great way for us to approach this topic.
[3:25] Mm-hmm.
[3:27] It was a really vulnerable conversation and she did it so beautifully.
[3:35] And it was a little bit unlike other episodes we've done where we interview the guest and then we chat about what we've learned from them because we've decided the best thing to do here is to, after back this episode in the next few weeks, we'll have an episode from Dr. M.
[3:48] And she'll be talking about grief and the way we work through it, because that essentially is what this conversation is, the ways that Lauren has worked her way through grief and continues to work her way through grief.
[3:58] I mean, so many people have experiences, everyone will experience this huge thing in your life, grief.
[4:03] And we thought that was the best way to do it, to have him following up the next couple of weeks.
[4:07] Yeah.
[4:08] I think it's also worth mentioning that when talking to Lauren, we didn't go into the details of how Jock passed away.
[4:17] It didn't feel appropriate to do so in that conversation.
[4:21] But Lauren does talk to this in her new book.
[4:24] Jock was such a big figure for many people who loved him dearly through knowing him or just watching him on TV I think he was so charismatic and so magnetic that a lot of people would have felt like they knew him and the book is called Till Death To Us Part it's incredibly powerful for anyone grieving and it's also a wonderful way for those who love Jock on TV to connect
[4:55] We are so lucky today to be joined.
[4:58] In fact, before I even say the name, no, I will say the name, sorry, Lauren Zonfillo.
[5:03] You have a presence about you that is just, you know, in fact, I was going to say aura, but I feel like Gen Z have stolen that word off us, but I'd like to take it back.
[5:10] We can share it.
[5:11] We can both have aura.
[5:12] I think we use it in a more authentic way.
[5:14] They say it for everything.
[5:15] Wow.
[5:16] He's taken some big swings early on.
[5:18] Yeah.
[5:19] He's going for Gen Z.
[5:21] No, but in the most, your aura and presence, it's a lovely, we have a lovely presence about you.
[5:27] Thank you, Hugh.
[5:28] I appreciate that.
[5:29] Yeah, I feel very, very lucky to have you here.
[5:30] I 100% agree.
[5:31] There you are.
[5:32] Yep.
[5:32] That's nice.
[5:33] 100% agree.
[5:33] It's so calming.
[5:34] Yep.
[5:35] I'd say Dr. Emily adjacent.
[5:38] Oh, yeah.
[5:38] Oh, what a compliment.
[5:39] I totally agree.
[5:40] Yep.
[5:41] Goodness me.
[5:42] Yep.
[5:42] Not to compare, but since we're talking about auras, sorry, Gen Z.
[5:46] Well, for those of you who don't know the backstory, I might just do a quick bio, if that's okay, and then we'll jump in.
[5:55] In April 2023, Lauren Zonfillo's world changed in the most heartbreaking way.
[6:01] Setting up her family's new life in Rome while her partner Jock finished up his Masterchef press junket in Melbourne, Lauren received the devastating phone call that would alter her future forever.
[6:11] In an instant, everything changed.
[6:13] Lauren began her journey as a mother, public figure and human being dealing with cataclysmic grief.
[6:18] Before she was Lauren's on Frillo, Lauren had already established herself as an extremely accomplished businesswoman.
[6:23] In 2003, Lauren founded the marketing and communication firm Pulse Collective and won the New South Wales Telstra Young Businesswoman of the Year Award in 2010.
[6:32] Lauren met Jock in 2014.
[6:35] Together they have two children, Alfie and Isla.
[6:38] Beyond their deep love for each other, Lauren played a pivotal role in Jock's career, serving as board director for the Irana Foundation, CEO of the Irana Group and Jock's personal manager.
[6:49] Lauren's work and presence have deeply inspired many.
[6:52] She's a passionate and dedicated advocate for connection, storytelling and family.
[6:56] With her background in media and communications, Lauren has used her platform to shed light on the often unseen moments behind the scenes of public life, sharing with honesty and vulnerability, what it means to navigate love, loss, parenting and identity in today's world.
[7:10] Lauren's strength, warmth and authenticity shine through in everything she does and we are so grateful to have us with us here today.
[7:18] My first question, the older I get and the more I go through, I feel like I feel a lot more things in my heart.
[7:24] How's your heart feel today, right now?
[7:26] Just hearing you say that, it was like, wow, no one said anything about me in so long.
[7:31] I just completely forgot I had a career, really.
[7:33] I just feel like all I've done for the last nearly two years is...
[7:37] create Jock's legacy, parent our children, put parts of it hide away and just try and rebuild.
[7:44] So, yeah, that kind of got me in the throat when you were saying all that because I was like, oh, yeah, that's right.
[7:50] There's that other part of me and I am trying to rebuild that.
[7:53] As a solo parent now, I have a lot of responsibility for my children's future.
[7:58] and that means I need to have a career and work as well as find meaning for them in what has just been a cataclysmic event for them.
[8:07] Yeah, that was heartwarming actually.
[8:09] I forgot parts of myself.
[8:13] Why did you choose marketing?
[8:15] I find marketing very, very fascinating because it's really, from what my limited knowledge of it, it seems very much like about understanding people.
[8:25] Yeah, well, I fell into it.
[8:27] So I was at university doing a bio communications, thinking I'd be a journalist because I did like writing and I thought that's where I'd go.
[8:36] Then I started working at McDonald's at head office, just part time.
[8:39] They needed some help with some admin.
[8:42] And then all of a sudden I had a job.
[8:43] So I was sort of, I went into the marketing department, did uni at night and just started being an adult, probably a little bit earlier than I should have.
[8:51] So yeah.
[8:52] How old was that?
[8:52] I was 19 when I got my full-time job there.
[8:55] Yeah.
[8:55] And then I learnt how to market on the job.
[8:57] I learnt that marketing is a really untrusted profession.
[9:01] And so with that I thought, oh, maybe I'll just do a bit more work with meaning.
[9:07] And then I just kept going at it.
[9:10] So I think that...
[9:12] I wasn't ever a very good people person.
[9:14] I read people really well.
[9:16] I read situations.
[9:17] I could unpack stuff.
[9:19] But I was never a great leader of people.
[9:20] I was never great at friendships or relationships.
[9:22] But in the make-believe world of business, I was very good at that.
[9:26] That's really, I mean, I've only just met you, but that's very surprising to hear.
[9:29] I think I'm better now.
[9:30] Okay.
[9:32] I'm a bit more, you know, I've lived a bit more now.
[9:35] Yeah.
[9:36] I understand what happiness feels like and is, and I know what the opposite of it is now.
[9:43] I think my emotional repertoire has changed, and so I'm maybe a bit more caring and thoughtful.
[9:49] And I realize that really bad shit can happen.
[9:51] You know, I think that's pretty enlightening
[9:57] for me probably being the best version of myself that I've been so far.
[10:01] Really?
[10:02] What makes you the best version of you?
[10:05] I think that grief, and for me, grief is a catch-all.
[10:10] So really losing Jock was very traumatic.
[10:14] It was so unexpected and it was just so big, so far away from him.
[10:20] Our babies were two and a half and five and it was just so public.
[10:24] It was just so international.
[10:26] So I think that...
[10:28] Grief is something that came a bit further down the line.
[10:31] So there's this chaos of the immediacy of it.
[10:34] So for months I had no idea what was up or down.
[10:38] But then in the future grief does enter and in with grief comes a very narrow passage that you can only go one way.
[10:45] Like you imagine physically imagine that metaphor and go, I'm going through this tiny passage and my shoulders are right to the edge.
[10:51] You have nowhere else you can go forward.
[10:53] It just depends on how fast you can get out of there.
[10:56] And I just wanted to get the fuck out of there.
[10:58] I could not handle it.
[10:59] It was so unbearable.
[11:01] So the speed at which I tried to get away from the impact zone of losing jock was important to me.
[11:08] Numbers became important.
[11:09] I wanted to get to one month.
[11:11] And then I negotiated it myself for that.
[11:13] It's actually four weeks.
[11:14] And because one month I thought something would happen, nothing happened.
[11:17] One year, nothing happened.
[11:19] Actually got worse at one year.
[11:21] So I think that I was just doing anything to get away from the pain of it.
[11:25] You just, in grief, I was just looking for...
[11:29] a moment of stillness or just some reprieve from the hurt.
[11:33] It just hurts all the time.
[11:36] And it hurts when I would see our kids do something cute and it's tiny.
[11:42] You know, like Alfie might just twirl Isla's hair and I'm like, oh, there's no one to share that with.
[11:49] No one cares.
[11:49] You don't take a photo of that and send it to a friend.
[11:51] Like that's a parent loving, caring moment going, we created these two beautiful people that love each other.
[11:59] So I think that I'm learning to stand on my own two feet.
[12:04] Jock and I are very enmeshed in every way.
[12:07] So I had to really rebuild because I was very much a part of Jock and then I didn't have him anymore.
[12:12] So I had a lot of work to do to kind of get back to the baseline to then rebuild myself as a person.
[12:18] I think it might be helpful for the people who are sort of catching up as we go, just to hear kind of from your side of things what actually happened.
[12:27] Because, I mean, I feel like you've lived everyone's worst nightmare, really.
[12:33] Yeah, well, the kids and I were in Rome, so we'd relocated there.
[12:37] We figured, why not?
[12:39] Which is pretty much our decision-making matrix was always, why not?
[12:43] Let's just do it, why not?
[12:45] We always agreed that if we were happy, then our children would be happy.
[12:49] Their flow-down effect into our family and our life.
[12:52] Our extended life was always going to be positive.
[12:53] So what did we want?
[12:55] Jock would just be able to travel back for MasterChef.
[12:59] We would not be away from each other for more than maybe three or four weeks.
[13:02] We'd come here while he's filming.
[13:04] He'd come back at Christmas and we thought we'd nailed it.
[13:07] So I was the forward party, went over to Rome.
[13:10] Jock was just wrapping up MasterChef and doing the promotional stuff.
[13:14] And...
[13:15] Sorry, you flew over there with two kids by yourself?
[13:17] Yeah.
[13:18] Yeah, it did.
[13:19] That probably deserves a round of applause at this point.
[13:22] And I was just so used to having a husband that was so hands-on with the kids.
[13:30] So that was quite overwhelming for me.
[13:31] I'd never done that before and now I'm just like, oh, anything.
[13:34] There's nothing I can't do with my two kids now.
[13:37] We just got this agreement that we do hard stuff and we do it together and we're all good at it now.
[13:44] We were over there and Jock was over here, so it was a weekend.
[13:47] So the kids slept in and they woke up and there was a present from Jock, so he sent them something and they just couldn't believe that mail could come to Rome.
[13:56] And then they wake up and they open the box and it was from Jock and he'd sent them like two stuffed animals each, which are now Piggy and Foxy, and he'd sprayed their aftershave on the stomach.
[14:06] And so they opened the box like, oh, my God, Papa's in the box.
[14:08] And then it wasn't.
[14:09] It was obviously the toys.
[14:13] I'm surprised.
[14:14] But then he also gave them like these playing cards.
[14:17] One is called Mindful Kids, which is teaching them to have confidence and mindfulness.
[14:23] And another one was called Emotions and it was animals showing different emotions.
[14:27] And then it talked about the light and shade of each emotion.
[14:30] And a book, each one was about, you know, a kid's book on empathy and one was a kid's book on confidence.
[14:35] Oh, my God.
[14:35] So a lot has happened in my whole life with Jock, which just stuff happens and I go, gosh, that makes so much sense now.
[14:42] But this little kind of gift pack from Jock came and then we called Jock and we FaceTimed him and we were having a great day.
[14:49] Jock had just been out with Andy from MasterChef after his birthday, so Jock had had a great day.
[14:54] It was mid-afternoon.
[14:55] He was back in the hotel and he was just talking to the kids while I was trying to bust out breakfast, which is not my lane.
[15:01] You know, Alfie specifically wanted pancetta, not bacon.
[15:04] Isla wanted tomatoes with balsamic and pepper.
[15:09] And so I'm busting out all these different breakfasts.
[15:11] And Isla wanted freshly squeezed juice.
[15:14] Alfie wanted frothed milk.
[15:15] So I'm running around.
[15:16] Jock's finding this so funny because that's his job and I just sort of, I'm in charge of music or something.
[15:22] So I'm busting all the breakfasts out and the kids having a great time with Jock and playing with their cards.
[15:26] And life was just normal.
[15:28] So we did that for quite a few hours.
[15:30] And then it was late his time, like it was probably the early hours in the morning, so I said ciao and just we got on with our day.
[15:39] And I guess there's a period of time, and I don't know what it was, where life was normal for us.
[15:45] Like we just got on with life, but actually it probably wasn't normal.
[15:49] You know, the kids had probably lost their dad.
[15:52] I'd probably lost Jock and we just didn't know.
[15:56] I think spirituality has been a really interesting lane for me and I'm not spiritual, I'm not religious, I'm not generally spiritual now, I'm only spiritual when it comes to jock.
[16:07] And later that afternoon, our time,
[16:11] Alfie said, oh, can we watch The Lion King?
[16:12] I'm like, yeah, sure.
[16:13] I was sick anyway, so we're just going to chill out at home that day.
[16:16] So watching The Lion King and I'm giving the kids a cuddle and there's this scene where Mufasa, the dad, dies in a stampede and Alfie couldn't watch it.
[16:25] He, like, put his face into my chest.
[16:27] He's like, oh, it makes me so sad that someone could not have a papa.
[16:30] Wow.
[16:32] And when I look back at the timing of that, I'm like...
[16:35] Could that have been the first sign?
[16:36] Is that the first message from Jock that Alfie would say something like that?
[16:40] Because Alfie and Jock were very, very close.
[16:43] And then we just went to bed.
[16:46] And then when we woke up, we FaceTimed Jock and he didn't answer.
[16:50] And I just knew something had shifted, like something in my world wasn't the same.
[16:55] And I just, he could have just been having a shower or on another call.
[17:00] He could have been doing so many things.
[17:02] Had you ever had that feeling before?
[17:04] No.
[17:05] Right.
[17:06] Not at all.
[17:07] So I just wrote a list of what would I urgently need to pack if we needed to fly quickly back to Australia.
[17:13] So your mind went there straight away?
[17:14] Yeah, it was dramatic.
[17:15] He missed one call.
[17:16] Very dramatic for my mind to go there.
[17:19] But now when I think back or I'm kind of reflecting on spirituality, I think that was the first time Jock was talking to me.
[17:26] It's like he was saying to me, Loz, something is wrong.
[17:30] Don't just give up.
[17:32] Figure it out.
[17:34] And so I did.
[17:35] I was like, well, I'll call you a couple more times.
[17:38] I called the hotel.
[17:40] They thought I was a crazed Jocs on Frillo fan so they wouldn't put me through to his room.
[17:45] But I was like, I am his wife.
[17:47] I made the reservation.
[17:48] I've got the paperwork.
[17:49] It's on my credit card.
[17:51] I've got passports.
[17:52] I've got marriage certificates.
[17:53] Tell me what you need to put me through to his room.
[17:55] And he said, I'm just not going to do that.
[17:57] And I was like, oh, okay.
[17:59] I'm on the other side of the world with two young children.
[18:01] I'm really panicked.
[18:02] If you could just knock on his door or something.
[18:05] And he said, I'm just not doing that for you.
[18:06] Wow.
[18:08] I said, okay.
[18:09] So I kind of, I sat on that for a little bit and I thought, okay, I'm not getting anywhere here.
[18:13] I'm going to have to escalate this.
[18:15] And so...
[18:16] I called the local police and just said, look, I'm just a bit concerned.
[18:20] Do you mind just doing a welfare check for me?
[18:24] So they called the hotel, also weren't put through.
[18:26] And so they said...
[18:27] The police weren't put through?
[18:29] No, no.
[18:30] I don't know why.
[18:31] And so the police said we will go around.
[18:34] And so they probably from that conversation...
[18:38] Can I just jump in?
[18:40] What was your emotional state at this point?
[18:42] Were you worried?
[18:45] Yeah, I think the numbness of shock had kind of started to settle.
[18:51] I wasn't crying or anything.
[18:52] I was just going...
[18:54] oh, this doesn't feel like I'm even awake.
[18:58] It's interesting because I vividly remember that last conversation with Jock, like over hours, vividly remember that.
[19:06] And it's nearly like that was the last time my brain was
[19:10] was solid.
[19:12] Like since Jock died, I have like, I've just got this grief nausea where my brain doesn't operate at the same speed.
[19:18] I hear words and I've really got to think about what that word means, or I completely forget someone's name or even cities in the world.
[19:24] Like it just goes.
[19:26] And that conversation is so vivid and it's not because it was anything special.
[19:30] I mean, it was our last conversation.
[19:32] Um,
[19:33] I do love, I've got all Jock's journals.
[19:35] He journaled a lot and I've got, he journaled that night after we spoke.
[19:39] So it's so beautiful to read the journal because he was just so happy for us that like the local coffee shop was,
[19:48] now giving me one-year row macchiatos because we were classed as locals, not tourists.
[19:53] And, you know, the chick that owned the natural wine store was like, ciao, Lauren, across the street that day.
[19:58] And I was like proud but a bit ashamed that she already knew my name.
[20:04] And then but then he wrote in there that he was just he felt really guilty that he wasn't helping me with the kids.
[20:09] He really missed everything.
[20:11] putting the kids to bed every night and singing to them.
[20:13] But he was super excited about like us curating these little Scottish, Italian, Aussie kids that were going to have these really big lives.
[20:22] And so it's nearly like...
[20:25] I knew that that's what he thought, but it was just so beautiful to read those words.
[20:29] And he did write in there, which has been like nearly a motivating sentence for me.
[20:34] He said, you know, Lauren wasn't quite herself today.
[20:37] I think it's kind of a lot of hard work for her to do all this by herself.
[20:40] Yeah.
[20:42] but she's so capable and that's why I'm okay with it because she's so capable and when I get there I'll make it up to her.
[20:48] And so, you know, reading those words later, it's like there's this time capsule of our last day of communication, which, you know, it's nothing.
[20:59] It's nothing but it's so special to me and it's something that the kids have of, you know, what that period looked like.
[21:07] Just a great insight into where he was at and...
[21:10] that he was just so excited about this life we had planned and we didn't know how long we were there for.
[21:15] We didn't know if it would work.
[21:17] We didn't speak Italian, so that was a bit of a – well, Jock spoke some Italian, mainly food, words.
[21:24] Yeah.
[21:25] So the police weren't allowed in.
[21:27] So they went to the hotel.
[21:29] Yeah, so they called me and said, look, we can't get through to his room but we will go there now.
[21:34] And I said, thank you.
[21:36] And then they called me a few hours later and said,
[21:41] I can't remember the exact words, but it was something along the lines of, we entered your husband's hotel room and we found a deceased male.
[21:51] And I just fell down, like I just fell on the ground and I just said, can you call me back?
[21:59] Can you just give me a few minutes and call me back?
[22:02] And I just remember sitting there on the carpet going,
[22:07] Could it be someone else?
[22:09] Like, what does that even mean?
[22:10] And then he called me back and he said, just, you're probably not going to remember a lot of this, so just get a pen and paper and let's write some things down.
[22:20] So in that few hour window between them saying, we'll go over there now for you, um, I'm
[22:27] He was already taken away.
[22:30] So he was already with the coroner.
[22:32] So they moved pretty fast.
[22:34] And I have a lot of respect for the Victorian police.
[22:37] They were very sensitive and communicated very well.
[22:40] They actioned something that, you know, probably isn't a priority.
[22:44] I can't get through to my husband.
[22:45] Isn't a big deal.
[22:46] And they treated it like it was.
[22:48] And I really appreciated that.
[22:50] But then things just moved really fast.
[22:53] So where were the kids when you were taking this call?
[22:55] They were asleep.
[22:56] Okay.
[22:57] Thank God.
[22:58] And so I had this window of time where I thought I need to now action.
[23:04] I have to book flights.
[23:06] And once I book flights, I can make calls.
[23:09] And I did it in that order.
[23:10] So I knew when we had to leave by.
[23:12] And then I started making some calls.
[23:15] So I called Jock's daughter, Ava, first.
[23:19] And that...
[23:20] And how old was Ava at the time?
[23:21] She was 22.
[23:22] Okay.
[23:24] Maybe, yeah, just turned 22.
[23:26] And saying the words was part of the beginning to accept that something had gone wrong.
[23:32] Not accept it.
[23:33] I still assume Jock will rock up.
[23:36] Like I see him, often I see him in concentrated periods of time.
[23:39] I saw him twice last week.
[23:41] Just in people and then you go, oh, that's not him.
[23:44] Was saying the words to Ava, was that the first time you'd said it out loud?
[23:49] No.
[23:49] Yeah.
[23:50] What was that like?
[23:51] I think telling any child that one of their parents or both their parents has died is just everyone loses.
[24:00] It just takes a lot of courage to do it.
[24:03] There's not a lot of words to use.
[24:06] And with Ava, she was super close to Jock as well.
[24:10] Like they were really, really close.
[24:14] They'd been through so much together.
[24:16] They...
[24:17] You know, they just found their rhythm and Ava's mum and Jock separated when Ava was young, maybe a year, 18 months old.
[24:25] And so he had a close bond with her from a very early age where he would have her.
[24:30] So they found this really beautiful relationship through that.
[24:34] And so she became, over time very quickly actually, became my grief partner because it was like
[24:42] It's not something that my best friends could have done or my sister even, not because they didn't want to, just because Ava and I had a shared understanding of the man that Jock was, the one he really wanted to be.
[24:54] And we had the greatest understanding of what we had lost.
[24:58] which anyone that had jock in their world, like in a friendship or family space, knew what they'd lost.
[25:05] But we truly knew what we had lost.
[25:07] And so in that I found a grief partner, which isn't fair.
[25:12] I reflect on that now going I needed to help her not –
[25:17] evenly help each other.
[25:18] I should have been more of her mum and less of her grief partner.
[25:22] But look, I don't think you can get anything wrong in grief.
[25:25] I wasn't intentionally doing the wrong thing.
[25:27] I've done things that I wish I had done differently, but I did them with the right intention.
[25:32] And I did everything with love and kindness and as much calmness as I could.
[25:37] When you, I mean, especially like you're calling Ava that soon after finding out, I can't imagine there would have been any thought into, okay, like what's the best way to say this?
[25:51] It's just like, but with your other two kids, was there any...
[25:58] Like, I don't know.
[25:58] I don't even know if there needs to be, but I'm only asking this because people will be listening to this and they'll go through a similar situation and be faced with the same situation having to tell kids.
[26:12] Did you think about how you would tell them?
[26:15] Yeah, I really worried about it.
[26:18] So with Ava, I didn't have time.
[26:20] I just called her.
[26:23] With our little ones, I didn't tell them until we got back to Melbourne, so maybe 36 hours later.
[26:29] Gosh.
[26:30] In that time, I had time to talk to my therapist.
[26:34] And what we decided was the best approach was –
[26:39] to not use made up concepts like passed away or heaven.
[26:42] It has no meaning to young children.
[26:44] And to be very clear and concise and make it more like a conversation versus a statement.
[26:53] So, you know, in my instance, the kids woke up, we were in a hotel room, so family and best friends and stuff were there.
[27:01] And I said, if everyone could just sort of,
[27:04] be normal and make noise and, you know, I don't want silence or anything.
[27:07] Just try and be normal.
[27:09] I got the little ones into my bedroom and just got them up on the bed with me and said, I've got some really sad news.
[27:18] Papa has died and he's not coming back.
[27:25] Yeah, so that's all I said.
[27:30] And then I left it open for them to...
[27:34] Take that in.
[27:34] I mean, we're talking about a two and a half and a five-year-old.
[27:38] They were feeding off my energy and obviously my response to that.
[27:42] They were both very, very upset.
[27:43] Alfie was, you know, that hysterical but no noise is really coming out kind of level.
[27:50] He had a lot of questions.
[27:52] He wanted to know where Jock was right now.
[27:54] He wanted to know when did it happen.
[27:57] He wanted to know am I sure.
[28:00] He went into sort of a little bit of bargaining.
[28:03] Will I ever be able to see him again?
[28:04] I said, no, because Papa's dead so he can never come back.
[28:08] I'm not even for a cuddle.
[28:10] No, not even for a cuddle.
[28:13] And then he just went into questions about himself.
[28:17] So can we still be best friends?
[28:19] Who's going to do Lego with me?
[28:22] Do you think he's cold?
[28:24] He asked, can I still go into Papa's kitchen?
[28:26] Can I still cook?
[28:27] And I was like, wow, this is just not where I expected this conversation to go.
[28:32] Isla was more about statements.
[28:35] I mean, she just started talking.
[28:37] You know, she was really maybe three months into talking.
[28:41] And so she was making statements like...
[28:45] Papa gets really cold, so make sure he's not cold.
[28:47] Have you thought about putting his dressing gown on him or his slippers?
[28:50] Like maybe if Papa wasn't cold.
[28:52] And I was like, yep, look, when you're dead, you don't have any feelings like that anymore.
[28:57] But I know Papa's not cold.
[28:59] It's okay.
[28:59] He's in his pyjamas and he's got a blanket.
[29:02] And she's like, well, what blanket?
[29:03] Has he got his Scottish blanket, which is one we bought in Scotland, and we got the really big ones so the whole family fit under it.
[29:09] And I'm like, he doesn't have the Scottish blanket right now.
[29:12] Um, she said, well, he needs that.
[29:13] And I said, I just, I mean, we got on a plane in Rome with plastic bags.
[29:17] Like we fled that place and came back here.
[29:20] I'm like, it, it'll come home eventually, darling.
[29:23] Um, and then she got a bit angry at me.
[29:25] She kind of blamed me and she's done that a couple of times and I've learned not to let it upset me anymore because it's not her blaming me.
[29:32] But she said to me, well, you look after our family.
[29:35] So why didn't you look after Papa?
[29:37] Why didn't you give him medicine?
[29:38] Um,
[29:39] Why didn't you know he had a temperature?
[29:41] Why aren't you with him now?
[29:42] Why are you here?
[29:43] Shouldn't you be with him there?
[29:45] And this... And that was that, that happened the first time when you told her?
[29:50] Yeah, that was the first, that was their responses.
[29:52] That was their initial reaction to the news I told them.
[29:58] And then I have to stay true to the permanency of it because the kids, the way they bargain and negotiate, like...
[30:07] for Isla's birthday, she blew out a candle and she said to me, I wish that Papa would come back so you don't have to cry anymore.
[30:14] Al feels like I give all the wishes in my heart that Papa would come back.
[30:18] And it's a beautiful thought and I let them have it because they're children and I go, that is beautiful, I wish for that too.
[30:24] But you know Papa can never, ever come home because forever is so impossible for a child to get their head around.
[30:32] So, yeah, I think that...
[30:35] I now realise, and I'm very early in the journey, I mean we're a couple of weeks away from being two years, I'm not trying to raise happy children.
[30:44] I am trying to raise emotionally capable children who are learning emotions way before they're meant to, sometimes decades before they're meant to, and I'm trying to...
[30:57] hold them through that and let them try and navigate themselves.
[31:01] And then I sort of help them a bit.
[31:02] Children aren't meant to understand grief or fear or loss of safety or anger.
[31:07] Yeah, maybe anger, but, you know, a lot of these emotions, they're just their little hearts and minds aren't meant to be capable of, and they are capable of them.
[31:15] And so I've just got these emotions.
[31:18] beautiful little children that aren't broken by this.
[31:21] And that's very encouraging for me to think that if the world can't break them, then it can't break me either.
[31:29] There was so many overwhelming parts of trying to grieve and have young children that I thought this is going to break me.
[31:37] I can't do this.
[31:40] I can't be a mum.
[31:41] I'm hardly being a mum.
[31:42] I'm hardly present in any sense.
[31:45] And what I realised was that they completely saved me, that having them has been the only thing that got me, like dragged me forward because they just represent such joy and innocence.
[32:01] And like, I would love to feel joy too.
[32:03] How do I feel joy?
[32:04] Well,
[32:06] Being childish makes me feel joy.
[32:08] And so as much as I was thinking maybe this is just too much for me, maybe I can't do this, I realise now that it's the only thing that got me through.
[32:19] I'm amazed by the fact that you took time before you told them because you wanted to get it right, which it sounds like you absolutely did.
[32:26] Do you have a memory of the flight on the way back where you're trying to hold everything together in front of them so you didn't give any clues away?
[32:34] And how hard is that?
[32:36] They knew something was awfully wrong and I just cried the whole time.
[32:42] But you would never have tried to piece it together.
[32:44] Alfie was just sort of holding my hand a lot.
[32:47] And my sister met me in Singapore.
[32:50] So she was at the gate and the crew helped me off with the kids and the bags.
[32:56] And, you know, Isla was still in a pram and got me off.
[33:00] And when I saw my sister, I was just like, I can just let go now.
[33:03] You know, I've got someone who loves me and loves my children.
[33:10] I think that my...
[33:14] I have a very close relationship with my brother and my sister and they really stepped into that job.
[33:22] My sister was there in the exact moment I needed her and my kids needed her.
[33:29] Turning up into the airport in Singapore, I really had no idea what was happening.
[33:33] I just thought we were going home and this would...
[33:36] This was terrible and there'd be a bit of media for a day or two and then that would be it.
[33:41] But we were in the lounge and Jock's face was everywhere on the TV screens.
[33:46] I'm like, shit.
[33:47] Oh, wow.
[33:49] Why is this on CNN?
[33:51] Why is this international news I didn't understand?
[33:53] And so I had to try and...
[33:56] hide the kids from it.
[33:57] There was a moment where I got Isla facing me and then Alfie on my lap so I could hold them in place and keep their faces away from the TV screen because they would have been like, oh, Papa and MasterChef.
[34:07] And, you know, it was just not something I could do in that space.
[34:12] And so I literally had to block my kids from seeing that.
[34:16] And then we got on the plane and my sister said, I'll just look after the kids, just try and have a rest.
[34:22] And so I did sleep maybe an hour or so and then landed into Sydney and then I was like, holy shit, I had no idea what was in front of us and I had no idea what to do.
[34:35] We were really well looked after.
[34:36] We kind of had a, I guess, a very...
[34:40] affluent version of morning I would say where Network 10 safely got us to a place where we could have privacy.
[34:48] We had security 24-7 for weeks and weeks because we needed it.
[34:54] The kids didn't leave the house or the hotel for months.
[34:59] No version of morning is ever good but the affluent version was that there were a lot of people that would help us.
[35:06] Did you feel
[35:07] During that, a strange sort of combination of, because you had a lot of support, but did you also feel very alone?
[35:14] Yes.
[35:14] And I think that there's sort of daytime grief, which is where people can support you and help you.
[35:21] And then there's nighttime grief.
[35:22] And if someone is there looking like with you at night, it just delays the onset.
[35:28] So nighttime grief is the loneliest place.
[35:33] It is awful.
[35:34] It's actually sickening.
[35:35] And...
[35:37] It happens every day.
[35:38] And I was just like, when is this going to get any better?
[35:41] And so I started putting some rules in place around nighttime grief.
[35:45] So I could only look at photos and videos for 10 minutes.
[35:51] The next phase was no videos, so I couldn't hear Jock's voice.
[35:55] And the next phase was if I had anything to drink, I wasn't allowed to look at anything.
[36:01] And so I started sort of doing little rules or negotiations with myself to try and make nighttime grief not so severe because I realised very quickly my body was so unhealthy.
[36:12] You know, I was constantly thirsty.
[36:15] My hair was just breaking.
[36:16] My skin was dry.
[36:17] My nails, I was getting chest pains.
[36:20] My body just needed to rest and I just didn't need to rest.
[36:24] There's no difference for me.
[36:26] There was no need to get into bed at night.
[36:28] I didn't need to do it.
[36:29] I was just the first few nights we got back to Melbourne, I was just wandering around in the middle of the night going, I've got nothing, there's nothing about me that can shut down.
[36:39] And so I knew that I had to shut down.
[36:41] I had to find a way.
[36:42] I went to my GP.
[36:44] She's amazing.
[36:46] And so medication was a lane that we looked at.
[36:50] there was Valium that for daytime used just to calm me a bit, beta blockers for my panic attacks.
[36:56] It was sleeping tablets.
[36:58] And she said, but none of these you can have if you're drinking.
[37:00] I was like, hmm, well, which one's better?
[37:03] Like, and I had to sort of go, which one's better?
[37:05] And for about six months, wine was better.
[37:07] Negronis and whiskey and that was much better.
[37:11] And so I didn't take any of the medication over that period.
[37:14] I decided drinking was better.
[37:16] Yeah.
[37:18] But then I realised that obviously nothing good comes from that, but I had to figure that out myself.
[37:24] Yeah.
[37:25] And that just makes you weaker.
[37:26] It made me weaker and sadder and just felt more incapable of doing anything really.
[37:32] And so then I just started going, the most important thing to me is sleep and sleep at night like a normal person.
[37:40] Don't sleep in the afternoons when you're tired.
[37:41] Don't nap.
[37:42] Sleep at night.
[37:43] And then getting my sleep back on track was amazing.
[37:46] The first thing that I did and I accomplished and then I went, cool, nighttime grief now is not really there.
[37:51] And then I felt empowered to go, okay, I think I'm on top of this now.
[37:55] I think I can get through this first wave of grief and that first wave is big.
[38:00] It's like tsunami levels and you can't avoid it.
[38:02] You can't walk around it.
[38:03] You've just got to let it take over everything.
[38:06] Yeah.
[38:07] And it did.
[38:09] And then you get a breath and you go, okay, there's going to be another wave.
[38:12] That's totally fine.
[38:14] But thank God that one's over.
[38:16] And we all got through it.
[38:17] I'm really proud of us.
[38:19] And I think Jock will be really proud of the kids too.
[38:22] When you are going through that process of restricting the amount of photos and videos you can look at, was there a sense of guilt of like looking at it less?
[38:34] Yeah.
[38:34] Yeah, there was.
[38:35] Yeah.
[38:37] I apologise to Jock a lot where I'm like, so sorry, darling, but I just can't do it.
[38:41] And on the one-year anniversary...
[38:45] I set up the dining table with like photos of Jock and the kids and some of his like stag candle holders and some thistles and all this stuff.
[38:55] And I moved the pictures off the table and I like completely lost her shit and said, give me the pictures of my papa back.
[39:04] He's my papa.
[39:05] Where are my pictures?
[39:06] Put them back.
[39:07] And I'm like, no, they're just on the shelf.
[39:10] They're back in their forever place.
[39:11] But I just moved them off the table because the pictures were making them sad.
[39:17] it was also confusing them.
[39:19] So by having the pictures of Jock on the dining table, they started setting the table at night for four.
[39:25] So they started setting a place for Jock.
[39:27] Then they'd argue about who got to sit next to Papa and then I wouldn't put a plate down and they'd get angry at me for not including Papa and they went into this imaginary world of him still being here but just not, you know, maybe being at work and just not being at the dinner table.
[39:42] So it actually spiralled and that's one of the things when I say I wish I could have done some stuff differently.
[39:47] I didn't see the end game there.
[39:50] I didn't see how you give and then I have to take back.
[39:53] I don't know how you could.
[39:54] I just like I can't imagine maybe this is making, but I can't imagine how you didn't think so much of the time, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.
[40:02] Oh, no, I still think that, but that's just parenting.
[40:04] Yeah.
[40:04] Like I honestly don't know what I'm doing.
[40:06] Yeah, but it feels like the stakes for you are slightly –
[40:09] They're higher in a way that, like I've heard people talk about this being in this position before, but I've never actually thought about the day-to-day battles or challenges and just hearing that, that would just break me.
[40:24] I feel like that just that scenario just would be too much.
[40:27] Yeah, there's a lot which you just, I've just been going, this is too much.
[40:31] And I just, like, and then I go into getting angry at Jock going, fuck's sake, why is this happening?
[40:37] You just left me here to deal with this?
[40:38] Of course.
[40:39] Like, you're my person.
[40:41] Like, we were always in everything together.
[40:43] I just, like, and I've...
[40:46] In my head it's like I'm doing a deal with the devil sometimes going, just give me five seconds with Jock.
[40:50] I just need to have a chat.
[40:51] I need to ask him a question.
[40:53] I just need an embrace.
[40:54] I just need to look at him, something to give me, to energise me again so I can keep doing what feels like an unbearable, impossible task, which is just parenting.
[41:05] And it's nearly like just some of my emotions were turned off, like love and that just kind of got turned off.
[41:13] But then I go, actually, no, it was just that I was –
[41:16] I think that grief for me does fade over time and that's grief literature.
[41:24] There's a lot of talk about it, not ever fading it being like an extra limb that you carry around.
[41:28] But for me, I think grief fades and memories fade, but love grows.
[41:33] And I feel that a lot.
[41:34] I love Jock more now than I've ever loved him.
[41:38] And I talk like in my mind,
[41:43] He's my husband and he's present every day because we talk about Jock.
[41:48] I feel his presence.
[41:50] And I know he connects with the children spiritually.
[41:53] Like I saw that really early on.
[41:56] Carl Jung talked about these sort of spiritual wells or these holes and children walk towards him going, oh, they look fun.
[42:05] Ooh, wee.
[42:06] And they jump straight in going, what are we going to discover?
[42:08] Yeah.
[42:09] Adults go, whoa, a hole, danger, and we take a wide walk around it and we just don't open our mind to it.
[42:15] So I feel the kids' spirituality and their connection with Jock started straight away.
[42:20] You know, in the first few nights I went into their bedroom and Alfie's like, well, Papa's just up there.
[42:26] I was so angry.
[42:27] I thought someone's talked about heaven.
[42:30] And like I told them not to talk about heaven because I don't even know the answer to any questions around heaven.
[42:35] And I was like, someone's head's going to roll.
[42:37] Wow.
[42:38] And then Alfie's like, no, Papa, he's just up there at the lights.
[42:41] And I was like, oh, is he?
[42:42] He's like, he's just there.
[42:43] I was like, oh, hi, Papa.
[42:46] And I was like, I just want to nurture this.
[42:49] And at the time I wasn't spiritual yet.
[42:52] So I was like, I'll just nurture this coping mechanism that the kids are using.
[42:57] A few nights later, you know, Alfie's like looking at him through binoculars going, he's getting further away.
[43:02] But if I use binoculars, I can still see him.
[43:04] Oh, my God.
[43:05] I'm like, wow, Alfie, that's cool.
[43:07] Don't lose your binoculars.
[43:09] And then like nights later, he's like going, do you want to put some kisses through the tunnel?
[43:12] So Papa told me, make a tunnel and I can just put kisses through there.
[43:16] And it doesn't matter how far away he is, he'll always get all the way to him.
[43:19] I'm like, mate, I'll put some kisses in the kiss tunnel.
[43:23] And so, like, I'm just playing along with them.
[43:25] And then actually I'm like, no, they were just, Jock was still around.
[43:30] I truly believe his presence.
[43:33] I do believe that Jock talks to the kids.
[43:35] And I had this conversation with Alfie where he said to me, um...
[43:41] He didn't know I had gone to see Jock at the coroner and that I'd seen Jock a couple of times after that.
[43:49] I've never seen a dead body before, so that was...
[43:53] I didn't know how I would react.
[43:55] And so I didn't want to take the kids to do that stage.
[43:58] It didn't really cross my mind.
[44:00] I just figured that wasn't a thing that they needed to do.
[44:03] But strangely, I needed to do it, and it gave me a level of comfort that's very hard to explain.
[44:11] But Alfie said to me, months later, he said, Mama, why didn't you take me to say goodbye to Papa?
[44:17] And I said, you did say goodbye to Papa.
[44:19] He dropped us to the airport.
[44:20] You said goodbye to Papa.
[44:21] He goes, no, no, no.
[44:22] After he died, he said just the first time, because he was still in there, Mama.
[44:27] Do you know that?
[44:27] He was still in there.
[44:28] But the other times, he wasn't there anymore.
[44:31] And that's exactly what I had thought too, going when I saw Jock the first time, Jock was there.
[44:38] It was like he was kind of waiting and he was there.
[44:41] And the other times I saw Jock, I'm like, this is just a shell now.
[44:44] He's just not present anymore.
[44:46] And Alfie knew that.
[44:48] And he didn't even know I'd seen Jock.
[44:49] He didn't know that was a thing.
[44:51] Wow.
[44:51] But somehow he knows these things.
[44:53] And the kids say stuff to me like that.
[44:55] And I go, wow, it's like, it's proof to me that it's real.
[45:00] Mm-hmm.
[45:01] I mean, that experience of, because I've also never seen a dead body and I'm curious to know how it was for you, that experience of seeing Jock after he died.
[45:18] It made it slightly more real.
[45:22] I had no expectation, but I was also absolutely numb to it.
[45:27] When I saw him, it was just like, this is my goodbye.
[45:31] So I could touch him and be close to him.
[45:34] He was in his pyjamas still.
[45:37] And the man...
[45:42] The coroner, I don't know, I can't remember his name, but he was extraordinary.
[45:45] Like that's a really special job to do.
[45:48] There's people that I've crossed paths with over this journey that I'm like, thank goodness that you do this job and you are perfect for it.
[45:55] But he said to me, Jock is just behind this door.
[45:58] So when you walk in, you'll see his feet.
[46:01] And as you turn the corner, you'll see his face.
[46:04] He's behind a glass door, but I can retract that if you'd like and you can touch him.
[46:10] But he's going to be cold, so don't be alarmed.
[46:12] Um, but he said, you take your time.
[46:14] I'm in no rush.
[46:16] I'm just going to wait over here.
[46:18] So, um, I went in with Ava to kind of acclimatize her as much as I could to the room and then left and gave her her time.
[46:27] And then when she was done, I went in and it was, um, I think.
[46:34] I was just in there talking to Jock going, what the fuck is happening?
[46:38] Like, what the fuck is this?
[46:40] Like, this is just a terrible joke.
[46:42] This is fucked up.
[46:44] I was so angry about it and wasn't angry at him.
[46:48] I was just going, what the fuck is going on?
[46:50] Like, what?
[46:51] It was just outrage at how crazy this concept was.
[46:54] And Jock was just there and it was completely him.
[46:56] Like I could smell his aftershave and I could smell the curly stuff he has in his hair.
[47:02] And he was just sleeping and I was just like, open your eyes.
[47:05] Just please just open your eyes just a little bit.
[47:09] And so I went over to him and...
[47:13] I touched him, but I was really scared to touch him.
[47:15] And so I started with his hair and I was like, oh, I love his hair.
[47:19] And then I was able to touch his face and I was able to sort of be really close to him and kiss him and say goodbye.
[47:26] And I was talking to him just going like, I've got this.
[47:31] I know it doesn't seem like it right now, but I've got this.
[47:34] And the kids are going to be good.
[47:36] They're going to be fine.
[47:37] And I'll figure it out.
[47:41] And...
[47:43] Then I was crying on Jock and I was just saying to him, please just open your eyes, Jock, just for a second.
[47:51] I just need something from you.
[47:54] And then a tear went down his face but it was actually my tear that had fallen in and it fell down at that moment.
[48:01] I was like, oh, God, I just want you to be alive.
[48:05] I just want you back so badly.
[48:08] And it's just incomprehensible.
[48:12] And it's so unfair.
[48:14] And I definitely, I left that room going like I had a moment with Jock and I got to do things like run my fingers through his hair and kiss him like I would every day, like it was normal, but it was the most abnormal thing ever.
[48:29] And then from there it was I saw him a couple more times and then it was time for him to be buried.
[48:36] And I was actually relieved because that was a long time, probably I think it was 11 or 12 days until...
[48:43] I just had no idea how hard it would be to organise Jock's funeral and the moving parts and the privacy and the scale of it and the scope of it.
[48:52] I didn't know what to do.
[48:54] Jock and I never talked about death or do you want to get cremated or buried or where does this all go?
[48:58] I hadn't even talked about the kids' schooling.
[49:02] We hadn't had these conversations yet.
[49:03] So I decided, I know that Jock would have said, don't make a fuss, just cremate me and chuck me into a lock in the Scottish Highlands and just be done with it.
[49:12] But actually the kids and I needed a place and I think that the ritual of the burial was a really important part of them processing what had happened and them now having Jock, a place for Jock that they can visit.
[49:29] So they knew that...
[49:32] Papa was going to be in a box and he was going into the ground and they were going to cover him with dirt and put grass on him.
[49:39] And so they knew what was about to happen and then they saw the ritual and now we go back and visit Papa.
[49:47] And strangely, it's a really nice cemetery.
[49:52] I know that sounds really strange.
[49:54] People are out there with picnic blankets, sitting, reading books next to whoever.
[49:59] We go out there for Jock's birthday, Father's Day, have a picnic breakfast, sit under an umbrella, like literally spend time with Jock and it makes sense to the kids that he's there.
[50:10] They know where his head is, where his feet are.
[50:12] And, you know, Alfie always lies on Jock's stomach.
[50:15] That's where he used to always lie.
[50:16] So he gets into his little position on top of Jock's heart and they give his head kisses before they leave.
[50:22] And, you know, it makes sense to them.
[50:25] They can visualise that that's a place where Jock is resting.
[50:27] Yeah.
[50:29] I just thank you so much for, for taking us through that experience.
[50:35] That is such a personal experience in terms of going to see Jock after he died.
[50:42] Like I just thank you very much.
[50:44] It's really powerful.
[50:45] And I think the thing that I keep thinking about, I don't know if this is, I mean, we've never met, but, and you've, you've run your own business, you've run multiple businesses.
[50:56] And I, I,
[50:57] I know something that I've always struggled with and I think many people probably struggle with is like want to control things and want to be able to dictate how things happen and when things happen.
[51:11] You know, that's a comfort for so many people.
[51:12] It definitely is for me.
[51:14] And something like this happening is like the ultimate loss of control.
[51:21] Yeah.
[51:22] Really.
[51:22] You're spot on.
[51:23] How does that resonate with you?
[51:25] Yeah, you're right there.
[51:26] That's a word I write about, journal about a lot.
[51:30] And it was a realisation that nothing's under my control.
[51:35] When I think back to what actually has been the things that worked for me, because I did everything, bereavement yoga, acupuncture, anything, just tell me what I need to do and I'll do it because I need this to go away.
[51:46] I think that would be me too.
[51:48] Yeah, I do anything.
[51:49] I'll do it.
[51:49] I'm up for it.
[51:52] And what it has come down to is nature was one of them.
[51:56] So we live in a location where I can watch the weather.
[52:01] And so I was able to sit at home and watch storms come and go and just realise that Mother Nature has all the control and we have no control.
[52:08] And it was a nice visual for me to go, nothing is under my control.
[52:13] And...
[52:15] The one thing, actually, I would hate for anything to happen to our children, but the one thing I would have wanted to stay in my life was jock because together we could conquer anything.
[52:25] And I had no control over that.
[52:26] I had no control over anything that happened afterwards.
[52:29] And there were points where I said, I've just got to get out of the way.
[52:31] I've just got to let this run its course.
[52:33] I can't stop any of this from happening.
[52:36] And I don't have the strength to just let it go.
[52:39] Yeah.
[52:40] It's a big lesson and it's a humbling lesson.
[52:45] And I think it's like part of the shittest greatest gift, which I, you know, my version of the silver lining, which is that this is the shittest greatest gift I could have been given because my gratitude is...
[53:00] exponential.
[53:01] I value my life more than ever.
[53:03] I've never wanted to be a mum more than I am in this moment.
[53:07] I've never been a better mum than I am right now.
[53:09] I think I'm a better sister and friend.
[53:11] I'm just more aware.
[53:14] But I also know my capability.
[53:16] I was pushed really close to the edge and
[53:19] I'd turn around and said, no, I'm not doing this.
[53:22] And I had to turn around and walk back.
[53:24] And, you know, a new version of me was formed and, um, the bits that kind of could be burned away were.
[53:31] And so this other version came out of the flames and, um, I'm really proud of that.
[53:36] It's lots of scar tissue and some, you know, unsavory bits, but that's who I am.
[53:42] Um, and, um,
[53:44] I'm the mother that they deserve.
[53:47] I really believe that Jock chose the right person when he fell in love with me and he chose the person that was going to be able to get us through this.
[53:56] I'm the perfect person to be the mother of his two children and make sure that they are versions of him.
[54:02] I don't have to do a lot of work.
[54:03] They're very much like him.
[54:06] And I want that around me.
[54:07] I want to talk about jock every day.
[54:09] You know, even this morning Alfie got out of bed and he's like, I'm going to be Papa today and speak Scottish.
[54:14] I'm like, great, mate, let's go.
[54:15] So talk Scottish.
[54:17] He's like, aye.
[54:20] Stop it.
[54:21] And I'm like, great, let's be Papa today.
[54:22] You've got to speak like Papa all day.
[54:25] And so, like, we just have fun.
[54:26] We have fun with Jock now.
[54:27] You know, I found it when I did his eulogy, I reread it, and it wasn't really a eulogy.
[54:34] It was kind of like my last letter to Jock in that I just wrote all the stuff we'd lost and was sad about.
[54:42] And I think he deserved a celebration of him, not...
[54:48] his crying widow talking for, I don't even know how long I spoke for.
[54:53] I think he deserved a celebration of him and especially those people in the room, I wish I could have given them that to go.
[54:59] I understand we're all in pain, but what a wonderful man.
[55:02] And that's not what I gave them.
[55:04] Let's do that now.
[55:04] I'd love to have a celebration of Jack.
[55:06] I'd love to because I never met him.
[55:08] And Bridget, our producer here, who I remember coming to the studio the day because Bridget worked with him on MasterChef and I remember coming in here
[55:17] and sitting, we were all sat with Bridge and she talked about this incredible man.
[55:21] I'd love to hear you talk about this incredible man.
[55:23] Oh, easily.
[55:24] I'll talk about Chuck nonstop.
[55:26] He's a wonderful human, you know, incredibly flawed.
[55:30] Life broke him lots.
[55:31] And each time he rebuilt, he rebuilt it with meaning and purpose.
[55:36] And I think that,
[55:37] each time he rebuilt, he was saying to sort of that trauma he was carrying with him that you can't take away the good parts of me.
[55:43] Like trauma is like this demon that wants to just tell you no.
[55:47] And Jock was like, no, I'm not going to do that.
[55:50] I want to be happy.
[55:50] I want to be a good person.
[55:52] I want to be a great husband and father.
[55:54] So the jock that I knew was incredibly deeply sensitive.
[55:59] He put a beautiful exterior out that he's a swearing Scottish guy, drank whiskey and, you know, did all that stuff.
[56:04] And that was him.
[56:05] That was genuine.
[56:06] But he was just a deeply sensitive person.
[56:08] And I think my...
[56:12] knowledge and education in addiction made me understand the person that Jock was and it gave him a safe place to be himself and to have really honest conversations around where he was at and what he needed.
[56:25] And so I,
[56:27] he felt the safety of our home and we were like his docking station that he came back into and we cared and adored him and we got the same in return.
[56:36] And then he was powered up to go back out there and have, I mean, I just, if I look at, like, I think of Jock's face now, he's smiling, he's laughing, you know, he's got this, he leaves places and he leaves an afterglow because he's like, God,
[56:49] that was fun or he was a good guy.
[56:51] Like he just always had that about him.
[56:53] Like he just had this energy that you just like loved being around.
[56:57] And so really that energy when that got taken out of our family was really, it was a huge hole for us, really hard.
[57:05] And I tried really hard to be fun and fun.
[57:09] be, do energy and it's just not my thing.
[57:12] So that's really hard to, because he was just stupid with the kids all the time.
[57:18] So you're almost like trying to play both roles, like being you and Jock and what you both brought.
[57:23] Yeah.
[57:24] I think that if any parent is removed from a family overnight, it's, it, there's a huge vacuum.
[57:31] For us, I think we, like Jock was very much the heart of our home in every way because,
[57:36] You know, we missed him when he was working and we were all at home or on the weekends it was all around him in the kitchen and he'd have Scottish ballads playing in the morning which said, like, food time, everyone, let's go.
[57:47] And he just had a way of creating an environment that we always wanted to be in.
[57:53] There's some strong genetics.
[57:54] You know, Isla eats chicken skin like and dangles her head back and dangles it in.
[57:58] And I'm like, Isla, stop eating like that.
[58:01] And she's like, but Papa ate like that.
[58:03] I'm like, he doesn't.
[58:04] Do you know you like that?
[58:05] Okay, okay, carry it on but don't do it in public.
[58:08] It's all right but don't do it in restaurants.
[58:11] Yeah, so I think that I can smile and celebrate Jock now and the moments of chaos, which grief is chaos, the moments of chaos are less often and we get out of it quicker.
[58:26] And I think that's just the fact that,
[58:30] we're building a bigger life now, not a better life, but grief takes up 100% of it.
[58:35] And so the only way to make it a smaller percent is to make a bigger life.
[58:40] And we just keep Jock alive in that.
[58:43] Yeah.
[58:44] Maybe I've been thinking about this wrong the whole time, but I imagine that growing a life bigger without Jock would be so
[58:55] hard.
[58:56] But the way you talk, it's like he's, it's not without him.
[58:59] No, it's not.
[59:00] I don't believe that someone who has such impact and connection and love, that that energy can just disappear.
[59:10] Like that just is impossible.
[59:12] Like you think about if, you know, someone you love goes overseas for a week, you can't see them or talk to them, but
[59:18] you still love them and their energy is still present.
[59:21] And I just feel that with Jock.
[59:23] And I get moments where I know Jock's laughing at me.
[59:26] And, like, I went out one day at the cemetery with the kids and I was like, you know what, I'm going to weed Jock's grass.
[59:33] And it was like Jock was laughing at me going, this is the most gardening you've ever done.
[59:38] Like I can hear his voice and so I find he's still having fun with me.
[59:43] It's just a strange thing to explain.
[59:46] And maybe that's just coping.
[59:48] Maybe this is just a make-believe world I've created, but I don't care because something that's really critical in grief is time and you can –
[1:00:00] I, in the beginning, just handed myself over to the current and was like, I'll just be dragged forward at a pace that time wants me to.
[1:00:07] And then I was like, that's enough.
[1:00:09] This isn't fast enough.
[1:00:10] I've got to get out of this and just work, like get onto some stepping stones and get out of here as quickly as I can.
[1:00:15] Yeah.
[1:00:16] That was one of the critical parts for me in addition to nature and medication and journaling and exercise that got me further away from the impact zone.
[1:00:27] Getting away from the impact zone has meant I can celebrate Jock and I can love him without crying and being sad.
[1:00:34] I can...
[1:00:35] love him as if he's just away.
[1:00:38] And look, I've checked this with my therapist.
[1:00:40] It's okay.
[1:00:41] Like I'm not in complete denial.
[1:00:44] It's just that that's what my mind would like.
[1:00:46] And so, you know, the balance sheet of something so awful happening is that the universe allows me to do certain things or it gifts me certain stuff.
[1:00:54] And so this spiritual connection with Jock is part of that, I think that I've been gifted it so that it just makes it more possible for me to keep
[1:01:05] Yeah, it's such a beautiful way of describing it because having no experience with this at all, you hear the phrase and it's, I kind of don't like it, of like being able to move on to the next step of your life.
[1:01:20] And it feels like you're describing something completely different.
[1:01:23] You know, I've really enjoyed that.
[1:01:26] reading Nick Cave's words, he's really good at taking really complex feelings around loss and grief and trauma and uncomplicating them.
[1:01:38] And that was actually a real breakthrough for me when I started reading his words and his interviews and his book, um, to sort of understand that
[1:01:50] It's not over.
[1:01:52] Nothing's ever over.
[1:01:53] Yes, it's very sad and you have to try and figure out a way forward.
[1:01:58] But it's actually another layer to you that at some point you'll be grateful for.
[1:02:06] And so I think that that gratefulness that I have is I'm so grateful that I
[1:02:12] I had Jocky in my life for a period of time and now he's mine forever.
[1:02:17] Like he really is mine forever.
[1:02:18] And I love that.
[1:02:20] He's Alfie and Isla and Ava's papa forever.
[1:02:24] No one can take that away from us.
[1:02:26] And it's something that's truly ours.
[1:02:28] And as the world moves on and everyone just goes back to normal, which is what happens, I'm...
[1:02:32] We still have him and we still love him and I don't want to be sad anymore.
[1:02:37] I want to laugh all the time.
[1:02:39] And I felt guilty about laughing.
[1:02:41] I read this book.
[1:02:43] It was called Finding Meaning.
[1:02:44] It was a great book, really, really impactful book.
[1:02:48] It went through some of the basics around like what do you do with someone's social media when they die?
[1:02:54] How do you unpack their wardrobe?
[1:02:56] Like just some real basics that you don't know what to do.
[1:02:59] Like they seem so simple but they're so not.
[1:03:01] You don't want to get it wrong.
[1:03:03] And he wrote the sixth stage of grieving with Elizabeth Kubler-Ross
[1:03:08] And then he lived it because his 21-year-old son died unexpectedly.
[1:03:12] And he said, we didn't laugh or smile for over a year.
[1:03:15] I was like, oh, I read this like week three.
[1:03:19] I was like, this sounds terrible.
[1:03:22] And then Ava and I had a week away at one of my friend's beach houses and just relaxed and had some alone time.
[1:03:29] And one night we laughed so hard.
[1:03:31] I don't think I've ever laughed that hard in my whole life.
[1:03:34] And I was so proud of us because I'm like, look at us.
[1:03:37] Like we laughed and we had a great night and it doesn't make us any less sad, but I think we're going to be okay.
[1:03:46] Right at the beginning of the conversation, you mentioned that your grief felt worse at the one year mark.
[1:03:51] Why do you think that was?
[1:03:53] I think shock is beautiful.
[1:03:56] It's just such a gift.
[1:03:58] It numbs you and numbed me and got me through the first year.
[1:04:03] And then at the one-year mark, I think that's when I felt it.
[1:04:07] I physically couldn't move like it was...
[1:04:13] That's when I replayed going this exact time last year.
[1:04:17] I had to call the police for a welfare check.
[1:04:19] This exact time last year I got a phone call saying, you know, I was getting on a plane and I relived it a year later but without shock and I really felt it.
[1:04:29] So I probably had two weeks of being...
[1:04:33] incapable of anything.
[1:04:34] Some days I couldn't even get upstairs to go to my bed, so I just had to lie downstairs.
[1:04:38] I physically felt hit by a bus.
[1:04:42] And so I did all the things.
[1:04:43] I was like, okay, go to bereavement yoga, walk, don't drink, have some CBD oil, you know, just listen to music that's not sad.
[1:04:53] Like I just went into all the things I'd learnt that could work for me.
[1:04:56] Yeah.
[1:04:57] But it was very hard to get through the one year mark.
[1:04:59] And so the one year mark is actually when it hit me.
[1:05:01] So I can see why there's a delayed onset with my friendship group and family dealing with it as well.
[1:05:08] Because you do, you need to shelve it to survive.
[1:05:11] And then when you've kind of partially through survival, then it has to come back off the shelf.
[1:05:16] And you can kick the can down the road.
[1:05:18] Like I truly believe that you can and there's value in that because as time passes, the inflammation reduces and it's made me more capable of things.
[1:05:29] And, you know, I've done a lot of reading about shock and trauma on the body and PTSD and trauma.
[1:05:34] different ways of managing that.
[1:05:36] And I just wish there was something, you know, something a bit more medical with grief because, you know, grief can be and a lot of the time is very traumatic and there's something else other than Valium, you know, to get you through that.
[1:05:50] There's got to be.
[1:05:51] And, you know, I'd love for there to be more work around grief.
[1:05:55] I would love for us to learn about grief.
[1:05:57] It's spoken about in whispers like it's taboo.
[1:06:00] None of us know what to do.
[1:06:02] Everyone's a fingerprint of each other.
[1:06:05] We just don't learn it until we live it.
[1:06:08] And that can be sometimes too late because everyone else has gone through it and you're at the other side of it.
[1:06:13] I just wish that there was more information, more medical approach.
[1:06:18] You know, you can lose people in grief and you lose them forever.
[1:06:22] Mm-hmm.
[1:06:22] Well said.
[1:06:23] I know this is a bit of a tone shift, but I kind of want to hear how you and Jock met and what it was that you, how you clicked.
[1:06:29] Yeah, yeah.
[1:06:30] Yeah.
[1:06:30] I love talking about how we met.
[1:06:32] It was a wonderful time of my life.
[1:06:34] One of my friends met Jock at an event.
[1:06:36] So I was supposed to go, but I ended up extending my holiday in Paris.
[1:06:40] And so she went to this event and met Jock.
[1:06:43] And she's like, I've met this guy.
[1:06:45] He's smoking hot, three-piece suit.
[1:06:48] He's a chef, a champagne ambassador.
[1:06:50] Jock.
[1:06:51] And he's European.
[1:06:52] I was like, ooh.
[1:06:53] Wow.
[1:06:54] Thinking like he'd be one of the Parisian men I'd been seeing.
[1:06:58] And so when I found out he was Scottish, I was like, oh, it's a bit of a stretch.
[1:07:02] But, yeah, I guess he's European.
[1:07:03] Technically EU at the time.
[1:07:05] Yeah, at the time.
[1:07:06] Yeah, yeah.
[1:07:07] And so she sent me a screen grab of his Instagram.
[1:07:09] I'm like, oh, that's a unique name.
[1:07:11] And he's pretty hot.
[1:07:13] And I said, just go give him my number or something.
[1:07:16] And she didn't.
[1:07:17] And then months later, months, months, months later, I went to my sister's house.
[1:07:21] It was my brother's birthday.
[1:07:22] And I just announced to my family, look, I'm asexual.
[1:07:24] I'm giving up on this dating game.
[1:07:27] All men are idiots.
[1:07:28] Like, I'm just not doing it anymore.
[1:07:29] Just taking a breather.
[1:07:31] So then I got in the Uber home because I was like, you know, nearly an hour away from my house.
[1:07:36] And I was just, I don't know why, I was clearing out some emails and killing time.
[1:07:39] And I was clearing out my photo album because everyone was dating.
[1:07:44] So we're just flicking each other photos of guys who were dating and all that sort of stuff.
[1:07:47] And I was deleting them out of my photo album.
[1:07:49] And I came across that picture of Jock.
[1:07:51] I'm like, oh, that's that chef guy.
[1:07:52] Yeah.
[1:07:54] Um, then I went into my email and I was clearing out my email and I got all these, you know, how these do clump your Twitter notifications and Jock had followed me and I hadn't noticed and I'd already followed him.
[1:08:04] So I was like, oh, we can talk now.
[1:08:05] Why'd he, why'd he followed you?
[1:08:07] I don't know.
[1:08:08] He told me, actually, he told me that he saw me and he knew my name from Gruen and he's like, oh, she's probably not crazy.
[1:08:14] So I'll follow her.
[1:08:15] Yep.
[1:08:16] Little did he know.
[1:08:18] And then I messaged him and then like it was late, 11pm or something, he messaged me straight back.
[1:08:23] And so we messaged all night and then he said, can I take you on a date on Tuesday?
[1:08:28] I'm like, yeah, of course.
[1:08:29] So he came to Sydney, we went on a date.
[1:08:32] And then he stayed until Friday.
[1:08:34] Where did you go on the date?
[1:08:36] We went to Fratelli Paradiso in Sydney.
[1:08:37] Great.
[1:08:39] Where they treated him like absolute shit, which is perfect because no restaurant would do that.
[1:08:44] But they were really protective of me because I would eat in there probably three times a week.
[1:08:48] So rocking out with a guy was a little bit like, whoa.
[1:08:50] So it was a regular for you?
[1:08:51] Yeah, not for dates, just for me.
[1:08:53] Yeah, I used to sit there and journal like multiple nights a week and cry and laugh.
[1:08:58] So they were just a bit protective, so it was quite funny.
[1:09:01] So that was our first date.
[1:09:02] And then he went home on Friday and he texted me saying like...
[1:09:07] Hang on, so when was the date?
[1:09:07] On a Tuesday.
[1:09:08] Tuesday.
[1:09:08] So he stayed until Friday.
[1:09:10] Wow.
[1:09:10] And he's like, I really have to get back to the restaurant for service.
[1:09:14] No one's eating in three days.
[1:09:15] Yeah, no one's eating.
[1:09:17] And he said, so when do you think you can visit?
[1:09:19] I'm like, well, I could come tonight.
[1:09:22] And so I flew to Adelaide that night and then... Way to play it cool.
[1:09:26] I was really cool, really dismissive.
[1:09:28] Two of you are both being pretty cute at this stage.
[1:09:30] But he'd already told me by the Friday that he loved me.
[1:09:34] So we just like went into this love fest and just like he just really exposed all the bad parts of him to kind of get them out of the way, I guess, and to check.
[1:09:45] So we just talked and talked and talked and I learnt so much about him.
[1:09:48] I was like, this is crazy good.
[1:09:52] Like and I just felt such a connection to him.
[1:09:55] And then so, yeah, I played hard to get and I went there straight away.
[1:09:58] And then... Did you call your mum and just say, hey, just hold that asexual thing just for a second?
[1:10:04] But you know what I did?
[1:10:04] I got on the flight and I emailed my sister and I've read the email since and it just said, you'll never believe it.
[1:10:10] But like, I'm flying to Adelaide.
[1:10:11] I've met this guy and I think it's love at first sight.
[1:10:13] Like, I actually think I love this guy.
[1:10:16] And so I've read this email since just going, what a beautiful moment in time where I emailed my sister.
[1:10:20] Like, who emails the sister that you would text or call?
[1:10:23] But...
[1:10:24] It's very formal.
[1:10:25] It's very formal.
[1:10:26] What was the subject heading?
[1:10:27] I can't remember.
[1:10:29] I will look it up.
[1:10:30] And then I spent a week there and then he spent a week in Sydney and then we just went into that and then it became like nine days in Adelaide, five days here and then, yeah, I mean things move really fast.
[1:10:43] So we met in October.
[1:10:45] We're trying for a baby.
[1:10:47] Two months later we'd bought a house.
[1:10:49] Hang on.
[1:10:50] I know.
[1:10:51] You're trying to have kids two months after you met.
[1:10:52] Yeah.
[1:10:53] Well, again, why not?
[1:10:54] No.
[1:10:55] You know, why not?
[1:10:55] You know, why not?
[1:10:56] Yeah.
[1:10:56] It's just like I wanted everything with Jock really quick.
[1:10:59] I wanted it all.
[1:11:00] And when I met him, I said, look, I'm freezing my eggs just as a safety thing.
[1:11:03] He said, why don't you just not do that?
[1:11:04] Let's just go off the pill and just see if you fall pregnant.
[1:11:07] I was like, sure.
[1:11:08] Why not?
[1:11:09] So.
[1:11:09] We started things really quickly, which is crazy.
[1:11:12] Eight weekends and you're trying for a baby.
[1:11:14] It's silly.
[1:11:16] So, yeah, two months in, we're trying for a baby.
[1:11:18] Maybe three months after that, we'd bought a house three months after that, we're engaged six months after that, married, and then Alfie soon after that.
[1:11:26] So it kind of just rolled.
[1:11:27] And I really am grateful for that because we jammed in.
[1:11:31] We didn't waste time.
[1:11:32] We jammed in life.
[1:11:34] And what if we hadn't?
[1:11:35] What if we'd waited and maybe we wouldn't have had Isla?
[1:11:37] I mean, I can't imagine like all the different scenarios of where we would have been.
[1:11:43] But in that, you know, there were friends that didn't like the speed of it and so I did lose some close friends in the process.
[1:11:50] They would say things to me like,
[1:11:52] you know, do you have a prenup?
[1:11:53] And I'd be like, wow, that's so none of your business.
[1:11:56] And then we'd just lose touch.
[1:11:59] And I look at it now going, of course, you would ask those questions.
[1:12:02] That seems fair.
[1:12:02] But in the, you know, in the throes of this extraordinary, he's such high energy and so amazing.
[1:12:09] I was like, I just can't believe he's mine and like together is happening.
[1:12:13] Yeah.
[1:12:13] Things move really fast.
[1:12:14] And, um, yeah.
[1:12:16] You know, it's actually really beautiful that I can like read Jock's book and hear his version of our love and the way we fell in love and the love he had for me and the respect we have for each other for different parts of our personality and our skills and our life.
[1:12:34] And he read his book as well.
[1:12:36] So I'm hearing his words.
[1:12:37] It's like actually such a gift for me.
[1:12:39] for me, but a real gift for the kids to hear that about their parents.
[1:12:42] Yeah.
[1:12:43] You know, it doesn't happen very often that that's the case.
[1:12:48] You've spoken really beautifully about your role as a mum and then also it's sort of been implicitly talked about as being Jock's widow.
[1:13:01] But do you have a strong sense of who Lauren is?
[1:13:05] Yeah, I do now because I feel like I had nothing.
[1:13:09] Like I...
[1:13:11] I thought I was a person and then I was referred to as Jock's widow.
[1:13:15] My name sometimes wasn't even used or Jock's widow, Lauren.
[1:13:18] And so I felt like I was defined by that and that was my identity.
[1:13:22] And off that I had, I don't know if it was real or imagined, but I had this feeling that I now had to bring up his children and I had to protect his legacy and that I was just the doer of Jockness.
[1:13:37] And so I let that be.
[1:13:39] because I think it was imagined.
[1:13:42] And then I went, okay, let's start rebuilding.
[1:13:46] And what's most urgent?
[1:13:47] Most urgent is mother.
[1:13:49] How do I rebuild as a mum?
[1:13:51] And I loved the version, the old version of mum that I was, and I lost that and so I wanted to get it back.
[1:13:57] And so I needed to find calmness and calmness was lacking.
[1:14:02] I...
[1:14:04] I couldn't do two things at once.
[1:14:06] I couldn't have a thought and listen to the kids or loud noises still.
[1:14:10] Just it's like a PTSD thing.
[1:14:12] I hear a loud noise and it's like a gun has gone off next to me.
[1:14:15] Like it's like I've got frayed nerves.
[1:14:17] So I've had to sort of unpack each thing one at a time.
[1:14:20] And so rebuilding as a mum and...
[1:14:24] I now refer to them as my children because they were our children and they are our children.
[1:14:28] But sometimes I have to say to myself, they're my children because they're my responsibility, sole responsibility now.
[1:14:34] But I am defined by Jock's death.
[1:14:37] I'm comfortable with that now.
[1:14:38] But the way I look at it is I'm defined by that because that's helping me create the best version of myself.
[1:14:45] because I want that for me and I want that for the kids.
[1:14:48] And to be honest, like, I deserve that.
[1:14:50] I deserve to have this life that is well lived because I was going to have that.
[1:14:57] And now I'm not having that version, but I still want that.
[1:15:00] I want a big life.
[1:15:01] I...
[1:15:02] I want experiences and moments and culture and language and all the beauty of life.
[1:15:07] I want all of that.
[1:15:08] And it's not selfish.
[1:15:09] It's just a drive that I have.
[1:15:11] And I need to open up my heart and mind to be able to accept that in.
[1:15:15] And that's the new part of going.
[1:15:18] The new version of me is softer but much more determined.
[1:15:23] Yeah.
[1:15:23] That is so amazing.
[1:15:25] And that is just, God, for so many people, that is so hopeful.
[1:15:28] That is really, I love that.
[1:15:32] Thanks.
[1:15:35] Something I'm really, because you've gone through something which is in many ways very common but also extremely unique, is that,
[1:15:44] and you have a very, I guess, unique perspective on life.
[1:15:49] Before he died, how would you describe what life is about?
[1:15:53] And then now has that changed?
[1:15:59] I think that I always looked at life in really short blocks of time.
[1:16:02] I don't know why.
[1:16:03] I always thought of these few years, these few years.
[1:16:06] Then when I met Jock, it became a life I could see really far into the future.
[1:16:12] And I was really excited by that, maybe a bit smug that like I nailed it.
[1:16:17] Like I'd found this gorgeous guy.
[1:16:19] He was awesome.
[1:16:19] We loved life together.
[1:16:21] And now I don't think like that anymore.
[1:16:23] I think in short, I've kind of reverted back into short bursts of time.
[1:16:28] It also is probably all I can get my head around with young children to go, I don't know where we're going to live in 10 years.
[1:16:35] I don't know if I can buy a house here.
[1:16:37] I don't know.
[1:16:37] I don't strive for that anymore.
[1:16:40] I look at life in periods of time where I'm free to be a mum.
[1:16:44] So I know that for the rest of this year, the kids have my complete attention.
[1:16:49] I'm excited by that.
[1:16:50] I don't know what next year looks like.
[1:16:52] You know, it just doesn't matter.
[1:16:53] Yeah.
[1:16:53] But I think I've also, I've always been pretty philosophical.
[1:16:56] I've been very, I'm always, I'm quite a romantic about life generally.
[1:17:02] And I, I think I've been a student of therapy.
[1:17:08] You know, I've had the same therapist.
[1:17:10] Oh gosh, over 15 years now.
[1:17:12] I can imagine that would have been a huge comfort to have a relationship with a therapist and when something horrible like that happens to have someone to talk to.
[1:17:22] Critical.
[1:17:22] It was critical.
[1:17:24] And even now, like last week, I was getting into a bit of some negative thoughts and sometimes I can get myself out of it and other times it just lingers for a week or two.
[1:17:34] And I had my session with her and it all made sense and she had all the right words and I read something and I was like, cool.
[1:17:42] And the thing is that she, because I've been with her for so long, I started seeing her back when I kind of realised that I wasn't great with people.
[1:17:50] I was like, why friendships, relationships, staff, everything kind of leaves me.
[1:17:55] Why is that?
[1:17:56] And as I sort of tried to educate myself through that with literature, I thought maybe it's sort of this addiction because my dad drank heavily and often.
[1:18:05] He still does.
[1:18:06] And so I thought I just might unpack addiction.
[1:18:12] maybe I've got the characteristics of an addict, not behaviour, but maybe growing up next to one, maybe I'm like him and I just don't care about people.
[1:18:21] And so then I found a therapist that specialised in addiction
[1:18:27] And that's when I met Tanya and that's when we quickly discovered I am in fact nothing like my dad, which was a relief.
[1:18:34] And then she educated me through addiction.
[1:18:38] With that meant that I was very open to loving Jock, knowing that he used to be an addict.
[1:18:43] You know, he came to Australia when he was...
[1:18:46] mid-twenties and he had his last shot in the airport at Heathrow and then didn't touch drugs again.
[1:18:50] Wow.
[1:18:51] And that's not a common story that you can just stop taking heroin.
[1:18:55] I mean, he'd been taking drugs for a really long time, but he made a commitment and that is so jock.
[1:19:01] Like when he decided on something, it was a decision and –
[1:19:06] He never went back on it and he was very self-disciplined like that.
[1:19:12] But when he wrote his book and he detailed sort of his life, his early life with drugs, it was really important to him
[1:19:22] that he wrote that book.
[1:19:23] And then he realised the impact it had when he was on his book tour and a dad and a son would come up and the dad would say, my son's currently addicted to heroin.
[1:19:32] And I wanted to see if you could talk to him.
[1:19:34] And so Jock started having a lot of these conversations.
[1:19:37] I got a lot of DMs from people after Jock died.
[1:19:40] And then I saw the history and the conversations and people would reach out to Jock, whether they were carers, parents, actually someone going through an addiction and,
[1:19:49] and Jock would respond and then keep in touch with them and check in on them.
[1:19:52] And he did this constantly.
[1:19:53] And I didn't know about that.
[1:19:55] And then I saw it and I was like, what an extraordinary man.
[1:19:59] But he actually gave people hope.
[1:20:00] He gave parents hope that maybe their children might be able to work out of this.
[1:20:06] there's no question in my mind that he saved someone's life along the way by talking about that side of things.
[1:20:12] And so when I was thinking about writing a book and how personal it was and is there any benefit, I was like, Jock would absolutely tell me to write this book.
[1:20:21] And I feel very anxious about it because I don't want people to be mean to me.
[1:20:28] I don't know what kind of human being could hear your story and choose to be mean to you.
[1:20:31] I hope not.
[1:20:32] I hope not.
[1:20:34] Who knows?
[1:20:34] Let's see.
[1:20:37] It's, yeah, I know grief but I don't know your grief and saying at the start of this interview there's a presence and an aura about you, it makes sense now.
[1:20:48] Like it really makes sense that the second you walked in you can just feel there's something so special about this person.
[1:20:53] Yeah.
[1:20:55] That was what a privilege to listen to you talk.
[1:21:00] Thank you.
[1:21:01] It really was.
[1:21:01] Thanks for having me, guys.
[1:21:02] It was the first time I've actually talked about it.
[1:21:04] So, yeah, I felt very safe with you guys.
[1:21:08] Thank you.
[1:21:08] Well, you spoke incredibly well.
[1:21:10] It was unbelievable.
[1:21:10] Thank you.
[1:21:14] If you enjoyed this episode but want a little bit more, we've got some good news.
[1:21:17] We have a brand new show called A Little More Imperfects, and it's on Patreon.
[1:21:21] For a little bit of money, you'll get access to bonus episodes with Hugh, Ryan, and Josh every fortnight.
[1:21:26] Early access to live events, plus other things we haven't even thought of yet.
[1:21:30] Visit patreon.com slash theimperfects.

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