# Hedge 288: Loneliness

An episode of [The Hedge](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1473947013), 13 Nov 2025, 51 min.

Audio: https://media.blubrry.com/hedge/media.blubrry.com/hedge/content.blubrry.com/hedge/hedge-288.mp3

Sometimes we just like to talk about “life issues” as they relate to network engineering and technology career fields. Loneliness seems to especially plague network engineering and other “small” IT fields, where communities are small, change is rapid, and stress is high. Loneliness expert Lucy Rose joins Eyvonne, Tom, and Russ to discuss loneliness. Check out the Cost of Loneliness here. https://media.blubrry.com/hedge/media.blubrry.com/hedge/content.blubrry.com/hedge/hedge-288.mp3 download

## Transcript

[0:01] Join us as we gather around the hedge,
[0:03] where we dig into technology,
[0:05] business, and culture with the finest minds in
[0:08] computer networking.
[0:21] Well, hello, Yvonne's
[0:22] frog lamp.
[0:24] Good afternoon.
[0:26] From the frog lamp and me.
[0:30] We are going to need
[0:31] so I got an official request
[0:34] for
[0:35] a live webcam of the plant.
[0:38] So now we're gonna have to have a
[0:39] live webcam of the plant and the frog
[0:41] lamp. That would be
[0:44] a sleep inducing,
[0:47] like,
[0:48] stream that, you know, it just sits there.
[0:50] I mean, maybe once a year, the bulb
[0:53] will burn out and need to be replaced,
[0:54] and that's all the excitement you're gonna get
[0:56] from the.
[0:57] So Yvonne, I just have to break in
[0:59] at this point, and, Russ, you can say
[1:01] who this new voice is at some point.
[1:03] But, there is a play on Broadway right
[1:05] now where a plant is one of the
[1:06] stars, and it is you know, it's not
[1:08] one that you would think it might be.
[1:10] It is a whole new one that is
[1:11] a breakout's
[1:13] new play on Broadway. So maybe you've got
[1:15] a future for you with your plant and
[1:17] the, you know, and the the landline. No.
[1:19] It's Tom's plant. Tom's plant is the one
[1:21] everyone wants. Tom's plant.
[1:23] Yeah. Tom's Yeah. Well, Tom's
[1:25] plant is a new addition. They're they're both
[1:28] live, but
[1:29] yeah. Okay. It's yeah. We constantly worry about
[1:32] Tom's plant.
[1:34] So how are you, Tom?
[1:35] I'm I'm good, but I know you really
[1:37] are caring about the plant, and so the
[1:38] plant is fine. And its ego has been
[1:41] stroked quite a bit by that last message
[1:43] we got from a listener saying they want
[1:44] to see it see it live. So the
[1:47] plant's happy.
[1:48] Yeah. There you go. I can see you
[1:50] can see, like, the vibrancy, can't you, Yvonne?
[1:53] In the
[1:55] plant? I I'm not sure this is the
[1:57] same plant that's been there the whole time.
[1:59] I'm not I'm not sure.
[2:01] Oh. What? Are you accusing him of substituting
[2:04] a new plant?
[2:06] I would have to go back to old
[2:07] video clips and confirm. But
[2:10] I suspect that
[2:12] the leaves have a little more coloration in
[2:14] them than they used to. So
[2:16] Maybe he's singing to it.
[2:18] Maybe. Yeah. It'd be. It'd be.
[2:20] So the third person back there is
[2:23] fourth person, whatever it is. I I I
[2:25] can't count. Don't worry about me. I'm an
[2:27] engineer, not a mathematician.
[2:28] Is Lucy Rose?
[2:30] And Lucy's here to talk to us today
[2:32] about loneliness. So talk to us a little
[2:33] bit about yourself before we start talking about
[2:36] that, Lucy.
[2:38] And and by the way, in your project,
[2:39] I know you've written a book on this.
[2:41] So let's not I would be happy to,
[2:43] and and I do think I am a
[2:44] person, not a plant or a lamp. But
[2:47] if if you all think otherwise, just just
[2:48] let me know before this is over. Okay?
[2:51] Yeah. My name is Lucy, and I am
[2:52] delighted. Thank you all for having me today
[2:54] and being a part of this, amazing discussion
[2:57] already.
[2:58] I take it the plant is not lonely,
[3:00] because it's got followers, so that's a good
[3:02] thing. Yeah.
[3:05] I have been I've been involved in public
[3:07] health for thirty years, a very long time.
[3:09] It's been,
[3:11] it's been the entire trajectory of my professional
[3:14] career.
[3:15] So I have worked at the Food Drug
[3:15] Administration as a senior leader there. I own
[3:15] my own business and work as a
[3:27] information that goes out to health care providers
[3:29] and patients is truthful and not misleading,
[3:32] that it provides the kind of information all
[3:34] of us need in order to use products
[3:36] the best and most effectively. So I've done
[3:38] that for a very long time.
[3:41] But about eight years ago, Russ, I I
[3:43] I'm a PA, by the way, so I'm
[3:44] a physician assistant. I have an MBA in
[3:46] marketing.
[3:48] Lots of things that I enjoy doing in
[3:49] life, but all of them dedicated to health.
[3:52] And about eight years ago,
[3:54] because of the extensive travel that I've had,
[3:56] during my entire professional life and I mean,
[3:58] guys, like, you're looking at a person who
[4:00] probably needs some therapy just for this alone.
[4:03] I traveled six week six days a week
[4:05] for twenty years. So you're looking at a
[4:08] person with, how many, 8,000,000,
[4:11] almost 9,000,000
[4:12] hotel points
[4:14] and 5,000,000
[4:15] airline miles. Way too much travel.
[4:18] And it made me lonely, quite frankly.
[4:20] And loneliness really is we think about what
[4:23] does that mean. It's pain. It's true pain.
[4:25] And I'm talking chronic loneliness, not what you
[4:28] felt like in eighth grade when you're in
[4:29] the corner in the dance and nobody was
[4:31] paying attention to you. That's situational loneliness.
[4:34] Chronic loneliness is that difference between what you
[4:37] need to fill your your spirit inside, feel
[4:40] like you belong,
[4:41] feel like you are cared for in this
[4:43] world, the intimate kind of emotional relationships we
[4:46] all need
[4:48] when that's not being met. And so it
[4:49] feels different for each person
[4:51] because, Yvonne, you might need three best friends,
[4:54] and Tom might need five and Russ one
[4:56] or whatever that may be in terms of
[4:59] thinking about what fills you. But about eight
[5:01] years ago, I realized how lonely I was
[5:03] from that travel and staying in hotels every
[5:05] night alone, and it was impacting me physically
[5:08] and emotionally.
[5:09] And I took a look at the world
[5:11] and said, woah. It's not just me. There's
[5:13] a whole lot of people that are being
[5:15] impacted by this and started doing research into
[5:18] the dollars that were being lost and the
[5:20] productivity that was being lost and the systems
[5:22] that should be there, Russ, and Art when
[5:24] we think about networking and networking systems and
[5:27] how it's not built into our culture because
[5:29] we're all about, yes. You can. Pull yourself
[5:31] up by the bootstraps. You don't need anybody
[5:33] to help you with that. Don't cry. You
[5:35] can hear all of this. And so that's
[5:38] when I away from home to take that
[5:40] big new job. Right? Leave your support system.
[5:43] Your fam you don't need them. You're fine.
[5:44] That's right. Oh, yeah. All that stuff. And
[5:47] so I decided to dedicate part of my
[5:49] life to to really making folks aware of
[5:51] this,
[5:52] helping encourage folks to build systems and to
[5:55] pay attention to this and to understand that
[5:57] this is as important,
[5:59] if not more so, than going to the
[6:01] gym and taking care of our physical cells,
[6:03] etcetera. So I started with that project you
[6:06] said called the the cost of loneliness project
[6:08] that is there and exists
[6:11] to really convene and catalyze and connect
[6:14] people and communities and systems in our country
[6:17] and in our world to help us all
[6:19] be more fulfilled and get what we need
[6:21] that way. Pay attention to it and do
[6:23] something about it. And you're talking about dollars
[6:25] and cents in one direction, but there's other
[6:27] directions. Like, I assume if you're what you're
[6:28] thinking there is you're thinking,
[6:31] okay.
[6:31] There we talked about apathy last week on
[6:34] our show, which is, like, odd. People are
[6:36] like, you know but
[6:38] it's part of the reason that people are
[6:41] apathetic is because they are lonely. That's one
[6:43] of the problems. Right.
[6:45] And the other thing is not just lost
[6:47] productivity,
[6:48] but the health problems it causes
[6:51] from, like, being under
[6:54] constant stress
[6:56] of being lonely. Like, that whole
[6:59] seeking things out and not being able to
[7:01] find it, I think drives a lot of
[7:04] stress in your life
[7:06] that then
[7:07] falls back into
[7:09] heart problems and muscle problems and Yeah. It
[7:12] does. Internal It does. Like organ or whatever
[7:14] kind.
[7:16] Absolutely. And it it's kind of a paradox
[7:18] too because as a lonely person seeks soothing
[7:21] behaviors,
[7:22] and those behaviors could be overeating
[7:25] as an example or addiction or buying too
[7:27] much
[7:28] in a at a local store or online
[7:31] or whatever it may be, all kinds of
[7:32] ways we do that.
[7:34] It's kind of a paradox, isn't it? Because
[7:36] as we go to the soothing behaviors, they
[7:38] make life worse, not better, ultimately, in the
[7:40] long run. And so it becomes even harder.
[7:43] But, you know, as I think, yes, you're
[7:45] right. I mean, let's just put dollars on
[7:46] it. The amount of dollars estimated
[7:49] lost in this country due to absenteeism
[7:52] alone,
[7:52] Just absenteeism.
[7:54] $460,000,000,000
[7:55] from business every year. And that doesn't include,
[7:58] Russ, your cons your thoughts about
[8:01] how the hormone cortisol is released with chronic
[8:04] stress and chronic anxiety causes
[8:07] heart disease, GI disease, cancer,
[8:09] even dementia, perhaps.
[8:11] As all that happens, that's not even included
[8:13] in that 460,000,000,000,
[8:15] nor is the treatment for addiction or any
[8:17] of those other things. So the cost dollar
[8:20] wise, just pure dollar wise, is it is
[8:22] just almost hard to believe or imagine and
[8:24] put it together.
[8:26] Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that I
[8:27] find in our our world, especially when it
[8:30] comes to any topic related to feelings, mental
[8:33] health, any of that,
[8:35] we don't have a vocabulary
[8:37] to even talk about it. Right? And so
[8:40] if you don't have a vocabulary,
[8:42] you have a hard time even recognizing
[8:45] the condition.
[8:46] Right? And so
[8:48] what should
[8:50] what are the things that people might notice
[8:52] in themselves to even help them know whether
[8:55] this is a problem for them or somebody
[8:58] they care about?
[8:59] How how do you know you're lonely?
[9:01] You feel it in your in your heart
[9:03] and soul, frankly.
[9:05] It's a heartache almost that that one can
[9:07] feel. But what you also see and, you
[9:10] know, it depends on age as well. I
[9:11] mean, if you're a parent looking at a
[9:13] child as an example,
[9:14] that child's grades might have been all a's
[9:17] and b's, and suddenly now they're not wanting
[9:19] to do their homework and their grades are
[9:22] falling. Or we used to see them on
[9:23] the phone all the time, like, in the
[9:24] old days. Now I guess it's texting or
[9:26] whatever.
[9:27] But and that that has its own place
[9:29] we should talk about before we go. But,
[9:31] you know, now they're not doing that as
[9:32] much, so they're not connecting. They used to
[9:34] be involved in sports. And this season, they
[9:37] said, I'm really not sure I wanna play
[9:38] baseball anymore. You know, you can see actual
[9:41] changes happen. You also can see folks again
[9:44] begin to get sick because the immune system
[9:47] gets down, when in fact you're lonely and
[9:49] this cortisol releases and all of that happens
[9:52] too.
[9:53] You might stay home to apathy. Russ, you
[9:55] already mentioned apathy. One of the things that
[9:57] that pops up often is folks just say,
[9:59] I I don't care anymore. They choose to
[10:01] stay home instead of going to a party
[10:04] this season this holiday season. You know? And
[10:06] they they they don't wanna go to dinner,
[10:07] and they start turning down invitations.
[10:09] All kinds of things can happen up to
[10:11] and including the soothing behaviors we were just
[10:14] talking about as well. Because you know inside,
[10:17] you're you're not being seen. You're not feeling
[10:19] cared for. Something feels missing Yeah. In your
[10:22] soul.
[10:24] I have I have a couple kids still
[10:25] at home, and and I know during the
[10:27] pandemic back when, like, we were doing school
[10:30] at home, and
[10:31] kids lost a lot of those connections that
[10:34] they had with school and friends. I even
[10:36] noticed in my own children
[10:38] that they would hit a point where they
[10:40] just continued to further withdraw
[10:44] and they didn't understand what was going on.
[10:48] And we had to actively
[10:49] say,
[10:51] come out of your room,
[10:52] sit in here with me and your dad,
[10:55] let's have a conversation,
[10:56] let's get out of the house and go
[10:58] do something.
[10:59] And then when we prompted them to, and
[11:02] then they started interacting,
[11:04] a lot of those behaviors got better.
[11:06] But
[11:07] you have to recognize it and make some
[11:10] kind of behavior change in order to solve
[11:13] the problem.
[11:15] And when it's your children, at least you
[11:16] can kinda say, hey, I'm mom. We gotta
[11:18] do this. Right? But I I also think
[11:21] that the pandemic and the changes in schedule
[11:24] and routine
[11:26] kick started loneliness for a lot of people.
[11:28] And then when you're in it, if you
[11:29] don't recognize this what's going on, it's harder
[11:33] to pull yourself out of it.
[11:35] It's really harder because one of the things
[11:37] you don't wanna do is go out when
[11:38] you're lonely. Right. Because you're putting yourself out
[11:40] there. And what if folks don't say, come
[11:42] on, Yvonne. Let's hug each other or do
[11:44] whatever and accept you? And I think, you
[11:47] know, when you mentioned COVID and you mentioned
[11:48] this younger children, it scares me to death
[11:51] about this next generation coming up because I'm
[11:54] not sure they've learned those social skills or
[11:56] that we have really focused on empathy and
[11:59] teaching them how to, you know, do what
[12:02] we're talking about here. Kudos to you for
[12:04] recognizing it and for saying and for modeling
[12:07] it and for saying, let's go out. Let's
[12:09] do this. Let's do that. Because it really
[12:12] sometimes takes some real jump starting on our
[12:14] behalf as parents to notice it, a, in
[12:16] ourselves, if we're lonely, and to notice it
[12:19] in our kids and then to say, yeah.
[12:21] Together, we can do something about it. And
[12:23] what great thing. Setting rituals as a family
[12:26] can also be important. Maybe we do pizza
[12:28] night every Friday, and people get excited about
[12:30] it. Or you and your kid take a
[12:32] walk together in the woods on a Saturday
[12:34] afternoon or whatever that may be. So I
[12:37] think recognizing it is in part,
[12:41] knowing that you are getting sick more often,
[12:45] Knowing that you than you normally do. Because
[12:47] that's the effect of the stress. Right? That's
[12:49] what happens. When your stress is up,
[12:52] your your immune system goes down and you
[12:54] start getting sick all the time. Another thing
[12:57] is, you know, not wanting to go out,
[12:59] not wanting to do things, withdrawing.
[13:02] And that withdrawal doesn't look the same for
[13:04] everybody. For some people, it's go stare at
[13:06] a screen or play a video game. And
[13:08] for some people, it's, you know they can
[13:11] this can sound crazy. Some people can withdraw
[13:13] by going and sitting in a bar every
[13:15] night and sitting in the same little corner
[13:17] and not talking to anybody.
[13:19] It's almost a form of self harm, and
[13:21] I hate to say that. Yeah. So much
[13:22] fun. It's it's an
[13:24] emotional,
[13:25] like, I'm gonna torture myself by watching other
[13:28] people have fun.
[13:29] Well, and I leave your cell phone. Come
[13:31] up. No. And as the holidays come up
[13:34] and we think about this, you know, one
[13:36] in eight to one in twelve, all the
[13:38] studies always have, you know, some variety in
[13:40] them.
[13:41] But as an example, are alcoholics in our
[13:43] country, adults? Lots. And we may or may
[13:46] not realize who is around us.
[13:48] But the people sometimes the loneliest people are
[13:51] the ones that are in a crowd or
[13:53] the ones that are at your own Thanksgiving
[13:55] table, and we don't know it because there's
[13:57] such a stigma around
[13:59] people saying I'm lonely. Help me. It sounds
[14:01] weak in this country to say that still.
[14:04] And so how do we encourage people that
[14:07] are sitting alone at the bar, Russ, and,
[14:08] you know, we see them at the bar,
[14:10] so they must be okay because they're not
[14:11] sitting at home.
[14:13] Yeah. I so I it seems it's it
[14:15] seems to me that when you when a
[14:17] when a loan someone who's feeling lonely does
[14:20] because because like we talked about, it is
[14:22] very hard to break out of it on
[14:23] your own. But when you do,
[14:25] really, that person is taking a pretty huge
[14:27] risk to come out and be and be
[14:29] among people again. It takes a gigantic risk
[14:32] and so and and it can go it
[14:34] can go wrong like pretty easy and especially
[14:36] with, you know, diminished social skills and connection
[14:39] skills among other people, we'll see them. Oh,
[14:41] they're fine. If they're here, they're fine. I
[14:42] don't need to worry about them. When we
[14:44] look at other people by themselves, we ought
[14:46] to say, oh, they're probably do they're probably
[14:48] not doing as good as I think. It's
[14:50] probably a pretty good assumption to make. Yeah.
[14:52] Oh, Tom. I I just
[14:54] I just wanna pause for a second and
[14:55] capture what you just said. Because, you know,
[14:58] as I look around at people in the
[14:59] grocery stores that are checking out and they
[15:01] got their headsets on or talking on the
[15:03] phone, and they're never looking at the the
[15:05] checkout
[15:06] person and talking with them and recognizing
[15:09] you know, people ask me about hope, and
[15:10] I look at it, and it's those small
[15:12] moments that all of us can control.
[15:14] You know, the person who is deathly lonely
[15:16] may not feel like and I say deathly
[15:18] in loose terms. I don't mean it that
[15:19] way, but really lonely,
[15:21] you know, may not have the courage to
[15:23] go out, and it becomes upon us to
[15:25] try to help them do that. But there
[15:27] are also moments every day in our lives
[15:30] where we can touch people simply by smiling
[15:32] as we bought bought by the security guard
[15:35] or the doorman at an apartment building or
[15:37] the folks checking us out in a in
[15:39] a large store, anything that might, to your
[15:42] point, change their lives forever. And we'll never
[15:44] know, But taking that moment can do that.
[15:47] And by the way, the most at risk
[15:49] for loneliness, just to introduce this, is not
[15:52] the elderly as a lot of people think,
[15:54] but between 18 and 34.
[15:58] Interesting. Yeah. So one thing I wanted to
[16:01] ask
[16:02] is that
[16:05] we have a lot of introvert
[16:07] extrovert stuff in our field.
[16:10] One of the reason I call this podcast
[16:11] The Hedge
[16:12] is because all the network engineers
[16:15] I know are like hedgehogs.
[16:16] I
[16:17] mean, it's it's it's a place to go
[16:19] and gather and talk. Right? That's the hedge.
[16:21] Right? You know, people talk at the hedge.
[16:23] But the other thing is is that it's
[16:25] a hedgehog because a lot of network engineers,
[16:28] you get close to them and they hiss
[16:31] and chatter their little teeth and curl up
[16:33] in a ball and stick their spines out
[16:36] and say go away. And we have a
[16:38] we have a lot of introversion.
[16:41] So I wanna get your take on, like,
[16:43] is there a relationship between that introversion,
[16:46] extroversion?
[16:47] Because you can't change it. I know people,
[16:49] oh, I can check and be in it.
[16:50] No. You can't. I'm sorry. You either get
[16:52] your energy from other people or you don't.
[16:55] That's just the way you are,
[16:57] and you just have to deal with coping
[16:59] skills
[17:00] to do that. So do you think there's
[17:02] anything in that realm
[17:04] that might impact
[17:06] the amount of loneliness that people see or
[17:08] the way they react to it?
[17:12] How many Von is there? Do you all
[17:14] have thoughts? I'll weigh in, but I just
[17:15] wanna make sure that Yeah. We're all speaking
[17:18] of loneliness, so we're all engaged together on
[17:20] this.
[17:22] You know,
[17:23] I I often so I I think everybody,
[17:25] at least me, Tom, and Russ, all have
[17:27] degrees of introversion.
[17:29] Right? Like, and
[17:31] and I've often wondered if at the end
[17:34] of the because but for me,
[17:37] I enjoy
[17:38] deep conversation and deep connection
[17:40] in small groups. Yep.
[17:43] Right. I have often wondered if for extroverts,
[17:47] they don't get the same degree of connection
[17:51] because they flit around. Right? They they
[17:54] and maybe this is
[17:56] a harsh characterization.
[17:58] But,
[17:59] you know, I I most of the extroverts
[18:01] that I know,
[18:03] it's harder to have a deep conversation with
[18:05] them. And so
[18:07] I wonder if in some way where we
[18:09] think, well, maybe introverts are lonelier because,
[18:13] you know, they they they don't care
[18:15] to engage with lots of people. But, you
[18:17] know, I don't know. I'm not sure that
[18:19] that will be the case. I think extroverts
[18:22] can be lonely. They just don't seem it,
[18:26] maybe. I don't know.
[18:28] Yeah. I I my observation has been it.
[18:30] I don't know that it has exactly the
[18:32] same manifestations
[18:33] in both, introverts and extroverts, but I think
[18:36] it cuts just as deep in them. I
[18:38] think it is just as difficult emotionally.
[18:42] And I I think sometimes it's
[18:44] a lot harder if you're looking at someone
[18:46] and trying to help them, from the outside.
[18:48] It's a lot harder to sort of gauge
[18:50] how lonely an extrovert is,
[18:52] because their energy sort of covers up some
[18:55] things.
[18:56] And and I think we're also a little
[18:58] more prone
[18:59] to look at a an introvert and quote
[19:01] diagnose them as being lonely. And, you know,
[19:05] sometimes that's not what's going on at all.
[19:07] Although increasingly more people are being affected by
[19:10] it, but I but I've made more mistakes,
[19:12] thinking it's loneliness with introverts than I have
[19:15] with extroverts.
[19:18] Interesting.
[19:19] Yeah. What lovely observations. And I think, you
[19:22] know, at least as we look at data,
[19:24] it really boils down to each individual
[19:26] and what they need.
[19:27] And I I I will say that, Tom,
[19:30] I really as an extrovert,
[19:32] I really appreciate your observation
[19:34] because it it does matter. And, interestingly, of
[19:37] course, folks assume extra extroverts because they are
[19:41] generally more out there and seem to have
[19:43] whatever.
[19:44] They can't be lonely.
[19:46] I am here to say, being extremely vulnerable
[19:49] as I say it, yeah. I was definitely
[19:52] lonely, very lonely, and no one noticed, you
[19:55] know, because I I don't put that persona
[19:57] on.
[19:58] And I think so as we look at
[20:01] and and I really appreciate what you said,
[20:02] Yvonne, about having those meaningful deep conversations.
[20:06] It is certainly possible. I I love having
[20:09] those deep conversations, and and I I,
[20:12] I I really beg for them almost, if
[20:15] you know what I mean. I set up
[20:16] opportunities to do it because they're exceedingly meaningful
[20:19] to me even as an extrovert.
[20:22] I'm not getting energy from it in the
[20:24] same way we define introvert and extrovert,
[20:26] but I'm getting meaning and feel seen and
[20:29] heard and cared for. So I think
[20:32] to a great extent, it's whatever an individual
[20:35] needs
[20:35] to fulfill that
[20:37] that need for them.
[20:39] But we do have to care for all.
[20:40] And here's the thing, you can't tell just
[20:42] by looking at somebody most of the time,
[20:45] which is why we also have to destigmatize
[20:47] it and ask the right questions,
[20:50] you know, and and move forward in helping
[20:53] each other figure this out some not another.
[20:56] What a great question. Yeah. Interesting.
[20:59] So,
[21:00] alright. So now we've talked a little bit
[21:02] about what it is,
[21:03] and we've talked a little bit about how
[21:05] to recognize it a little bit. I think
[21:07] there are other things that people could could
[21:09] clone on to know if they're feeling lonely
[21:12] because not everybody is deeply emotional, frankly,
[21:15] and particularly people who are and, again, this
[21:18] is another strange thing. I remember walking
[21:22] into a a Cisco office one day and
[21:24] I walked into the development department, and someone
[21:26] kind of where all the coders sit and
[21:28] somebody was like,
[21:30] you know,
[21:31] if you want to just
[21:33] look at the range of the spectrum
[21:38] of people who are on the spectrum,
[21:40] you're probably looking at a bunch of either
[21:43] high functioning or mid functioning sociopaths
[21:46] sitting
[21:47] in this darkened area writing code.
[21:50] You know?
[21:51] They're probably not wrong, honestly, just to be
[21:54] truthful.
[21:55] And so people
[21:56] in technology fields tend to not have the
[21:58] emotional tools to see, like as as Yvonne
[22:01] said, that they're even that they're even they
[22:03] don't have the vocabulary or the tools to
[22:05] understand. I am lonely.
[22:07] Like, they they can't connect that.
[22:10] So,
[22:11] but I'm also very curious about
[22:13] what do we do about it? We've talked
[22:15] a little bit about getting out.
[22:17] Sure. Get out of your shell. I'll tell
[22:19] you a story. When I when I designed
[22:20] the first house I designed for my kids,
[22:23] I designed it with I designed this for
[22:25] my family.
[22:26] I designed it with two big great rooms.
[22:29] One was,
[22:30] quote, unquote, the living room.
[22:32] The other was, quote, unquote, the computer room.
[22:35] And
[22:36] the kids' bedrooms were really small.
[22:39] And all through their lives until we moved
[22:41] out of that, they complained about those bedrooms.
[22:44] Oh, I wanna sit in my bed. Oh,
[22:46] I wanna be in my my bedroom is
[22:48] too small, dad. And I was always like,
[22:49] you don't get it. That's the point.
[22:53] The point is to create a physical space
[22:57] where if you're gonna sit on the computer
[22:59] or you're gonna be doing crafts or whatever,
[23:02] you have to get out of your bedroom
[23:04] and come into a common area
[23:07] and be with people to do it. Like,
[23:10] that was intentional. That was not an unintentional
[23:12] thing.
[23:13] And so
[23:15] that's just one of those things that I,
[23:16] you know, think about when I think about
[23:18] what do you do to get out of
[23:19] this.
[23:20] I don't know. Any other thoughts, Yvonne, Tom,
[23:23] Lucy, anything?
[23:27] I had a scenario that happened at work
[23:29] a few years ago,
[23:30] and and,
[23:33] a very capable person had joined our team
[23:35] and when they first started, they were,
[23:38] you know, they engage in conversation and team
[23:40] meetings and things like that. And I just
[23:42] noticed one day,
[23:44] he's not said much lately. And so I
[23:46] just pinged him and said, hey.
[23:49] You've been quiet lately. How's it going?
[23:52] And we talked a couple days later and
[23:55] I, at the time, did not think anything
[23:57] of it. Right.
[23:59] But then like a year or two later,
[24:03] he and I were having our regular sync.
[24:05] And he mentioned that moment to me and
[24:08] how he felt noticed
[24:11] because I commented that he had gotten quiet.
[24:15] And
[24:16] so
[24:17] he had stuff going on that I had
[24:19] no idea
[24:20] about. And I think that
[24:23] that noticing
[24:24] and just offering that connection
[24:27] is so important. And it it was low
[24:30] effort.
[24:32] It was it was low effort. You know,
[24:34] it's not like I was like, oh, I'm
[24:35] gonna go out and be sure nobody's lonely.
[24:38] It was just, hey. Haven't heard from this
[24:40] guy in a while. I'm gonna see how
[24:41] he's doing. And it really is
[24:44] that can be
[24:46] that simple.
[24:48] I think a a great example of that
[24:50] is,
[24:51] learning someone's name and and using it when
[24:53] you talk to them.
[24:54] It's such a small and simple thing, but
[24:56] when you I've observed this myself. When you
[24:58] used to call someone by their name after
[25:00] having met them,
[25:02] it's it's powerful. I mean, it's powerful even
[25:04] in the conversation when you're learning their name.
[25:06] But when you say their name, the next
[25:08] time you see them,
[25:10] that is I don't know why, but it
[25:12] seems seems to have outsized impact that that
[25:14] one thing.
[25:16] You know, it's interesting, Yvonne, and, Tom, both
[25:18] of you, clearly, you're right on with some
[25:21] simple low hanging fruit things we can all
[25:24] just be intentional about. And I think, you
[25:26] know, one of my goals in this project
[25:28] and what we're doing right now is helping
[25:30] folks really understand the importance of doing it
[25:33] and how simple and free it is to
[25:35] actually do these things. But, you know, an
[25:38] example another one is, like, we measure our
[25:40] success in social media by how many likes
[25:43] we have. Mhmm. One of the actual measures
[25:45] we should be measuring is does anybody notice
[25:47] when I'm no longer there on social media?
[25:51] That's the kind of thing, you know, you
[25:53] notice, oh, a 100 people like this. Well,
[25:55] yeah, but Russ didn't comment for the last
[25:57] two weeks. I Wonder if he's doing okay.
[25:59] That connection,
[26:01] that being seen,
[26:02] and how we measure that is so important.
[26:05] And I think we can look at the
[26:07] individual level like this and thinking with intention.
[26:10] I was talking with a a college president
[26:12] the other day about painting, doing some painting
[26:14] stuff, and suggested and we'd just been talking
[26:17] about loneliness and connections
[26:19] when we're doing painting. And he said and
[26:20] I said, so why don't you just have
[26:21] an alumni day and bring everybody out there
[26:23] and, you know, bring community together, see what
[26:25] you can do? And he saw he stopped
[26:27] and he thought and he said, yeah. And
[26:29] we could actually, instead of having a bucket
[26:31] for everybody, have one bucket for five people.
[26:35] So they actually have to share and talk
[26:37] with one another. And then we started talking.
[26:39] Well, what if we let them choose the
[26:42] residence hall they wanted to paint, and they
[26:44] could choose the one that they enjoyed the
[26:45] most? And then they talk about their best
[26:47] memories as they're doing that. All of a
[26:49] sudden, all it is is bringing intentionality
[26:52] to this at the at the individual level
[26:55] and how we think to rush your point
[26:57] about designing a family room and making the
[26:59] room so small, I didn't even wanna be
[27:00] in there. Of course not. It's intentional.
[27:03] But the other piece of this are systems.
[27:06] And I I think, you know, when I
[27:07] think about network systems and what we can
[27:09] do,
[27:10] how can we create better systems as a
[27:13] community and as a country to encourage this?
[27:16] How can we design towns that are walkable?
[27:18] How can we design buildings that encourage community
[27:21] gatherings and what they look like? What does
[27:24] that look like? So our architects, our city
[27:27] planners, our teachers, how can they build in
[27:30] empathy
[27:31] training in the classroom and awareness and things
[27:34] like that? So what are we doing with
[27:35] systems too? So it's a both and, Russ.
[27:37] I'm just I realized I'm introducing something Yeah.
[27:39] In addition here. Russ. But it's visual and
[27:42] big picture, I think. Yvonne, I yeah. You're
[27:44] leaning in.
[27:45] Oh, well no. So one of the so
[27:48] I've been a Googler for five years, and
[27:51] one of the things that really Which means
[27:53] which means, by the way, if you don't
[27:54] know what this means, it means she only
[27:56] searches for things. She's a Googler.
[28:00] Okay. To that case for us. Okay. No.
[28:03] But one of the things that I really
[28:05] learned
[28:06] and and became really real to me is
[28:09] when I started visiting
[28:10] our offices
[28:12] is how much our architecture
[28:14] and the space around us influences how we
[28:17] see the world. Like, big open spaces make
[28:19] us more creative. And I think one of
[28:21] the one of the really interesting things when
[28:24] you go to a Google office, for example,
[28:27] is they're they're designed to have big open
[28:30] meeting spaces. There are places to sit and
[28:32] talk and convene and collaborate.
[28:35] And sure, there are quiet places to work,
[28:39] but they're also
[28:40] intentionally
[28:41] designed
[28:42] for people to gather and connect.
[28:45] And,
[28:46] and and I think
[28:48] sometimes we've gotten to either clinical
[28:52] or,
[28:53] we we try to overoptimize
[28:55] every little inch of space and make use
[28:57] of it
[28:58] instead of
[28:59] thinking about
[29:03] how we construct.
[29:04] A a coworker of mine said this quote
[29:06] a while back. He says, you know, first
[29:09] I think it maybe Churchill. I can't remember.
[29:11] I have to look up who said it.
[29:12] But but first, we build our building we
[29:14] make our buildings, and then our buildings make
[29:16] us. That's the joke. And so yep. So
[29:19] the the
[29:20] the architecture
[29:21] in which we live
[29:23] influences how we see the world,
[29:26] and we can choose that.
[29:28] And it's and and thinking about it, gathering
[29:31] spaces, all those things can be so important.
[29:34] And I think, you know,
[29:36] in suburbia,
[29:37] like, we've kind of lost that, right, because
[29:39] everybody rides in the car, they, you know,
[29:41] they have their individual homes, their individual
[29:44] fences and yards, and,
[29:46] yeah, there aren't the communal spaces that that
[29:49] we've had in the past. Yeah. Or the
[29:52] community. I mean, those individual homes were supposed
[29:55] to contain families,
[29:56] and those fences were, you know, meant to
[29:59] make for good neighbors
[30:00] because you still have everybody working together
[30:03] on the other side of the house, on
[30:05] the front yard.
[30:07] We don't do any of that anymore.
[30:09] Like, we put the fences in the front
[30:10] yards, and we don't have backyards at all.
[30:13] That's pretty much what it feels like sometimes.
[30:17] And this is not guys, this is not
[30:19] a would feel what we're talking about now,
[30:22] just to make sure that everybody listening is
[30:24] the reality around this stuff, This is not,
[30:26] like, touchy feely, and we all just need
[30:28] to feel good and, you know, sorry we're
[30:30] not in the backyards anymore. This is this
[30:33] is a a public health crisis that
[30:36] arms us
[30:37] physically as well as emotionally in every way.
[30:40] And at some point in time, as humans,
[30:42] we're wired for connection.
[30:44] You know, we we act like we're not
[30:45] animals, and yet, clearly, we are.
[30:48] And our species is wired for connection from
[30:51] the beginning to to help each other, to
[30:53] support each other to survive.
[30:55] And so it is a critical moment in
[30:57] our time that we recognize this and begin
[31:00] to put systems and individual caring into place
[31:03] that brings us back. The paradox is we're
[31:06] the most connected we've ever been and the
[31:08] least connected we may have ever been simultaneously,
[31:11] which is an interesting way to think about
[31:13] this, I think. Yeah. I think partly because
[31:16] the way we connect today over social media
[31:18] in particular
[31:19] is very much an invitation to compare yourself.
[31:24] And that that is
[31:26] I mean, as I as I say, you
[31:28] know, it's too it's
[31:30] every media type this is going back to
[31:33] I can't remember this. Anyway, this goes back
[31:36] to an old media theory system
[31:38] where
[31:39] every media type has a resonance,
[31:41] and the resonance of writing
[31:44] is information transfer and narrative.
[31:47] The resonance of television
[31:49] is entertainment.
[31:50] This is why people say, oh, you could
[31:52] learn Greek on the television. No.
[31:55] Because it's
[31:56] television is entertainment.
[31:58] And and and no matter what you do,
[32:00] it's gonna turn in you can take the
[32:01] most sober preacher in the world or the
[32:03] best Greek teacher in the world. The only
[32:05] way they're gonna survive on television is to
[32:07] entertain
[32:08] because that's the that's just
[32:10] the way the medium works.
[32:12] To me, the medium of social media is
[32:15] about,
[32:16] is about performance.
[32:18] We go into social media to perform
[32:20] and to compare,
[32:22] and that, I think, is the real danger
[32:25] of the way the modern world
[32:28] connects, so to speak. I'm putting up air
[32:31] quotes for people who can't see me. Connects.
[32:33] It's not really connection most of the time.
[32:37] So, anyway, sorry. That was just, like, my
[32:39] little aside. It's funny you would say that
[32:41] the difference in connection and connect. Yeah.
[32:44] I just moderated a session in Las Vegas
[32:47] a couple weeks ago at HealthUSA
[32:49] twenty twenty five. And there were a lot
[32:51] of people in the audience, but there were
[32:53] four pretty smart people on the stage too.
[32:56] And as we began, the the topic was
[32:58] authentic connection in an artificial world.
[33:01] And we were kind of bantering back and
[33:04] forth this concept of the social media
[33:07] really connect, or is it truly a form
[33:09] of communication?
[33:11] And also going all the way now to
[33:12] the bots, the companion bots, and your best
[33:14] friend is Sarah the bot, and what does
[33:17] that look like and all the ramifications
[33:19] around that, which is a different path than
[33:21] we are now. But it's interesting to think
[33:23] about the impact that is making and is
[33:25] going to make in the future. Of the
[33:27] 12,000 people that were attending this conference,
[33:30] I bet a thousand of them are working
[33:32] on something having to do with technology Yeah.
[33:35] And bringing people together.
[33:37] Yep. It's interesting.
[33:38] I would love,
[33:40] one thing I would love to touch on
[33:42] is, you know, I really believe in order
[33:44] to truly connect, there has to be a
[33:46] degree of vulnerability.
[33:47] In other words, you have to risk a
[33:49] little bit to connect with another person. And
[33:52] I I thought of this as Russ was
[33:54] talking about social media because you can put
[33:56] exactly what you want on social media,
[33:58] show the parts of you that you want
[34:00] people to see,
[34:02] hide the parts that you don't want people
[34:03] to
[34:04] see. And and that can be,
[34:10] you can exclude any vulnerability,
[34:12] and you can even feign vulnerability.
[34:15] I'd love to hear your thoughts
[34:17] on
[34:19] the importance of vulnerability when it comes to
[34:22] that connection and battling loneliness,
[34:24] and
[34:25] how to manage that if vulnerability is really
[34:28] scary for folks.
[34:31] Vulnerability is really scary for everybody, I think.
[34:33] Yes.
[34:34] Yeah. I'm a big Brene Brown fan, and,
[34:36] of course, she if you happen to be
[34:38] a Brene Brown fan, you would know. She
[34:40] writes a lot about both shame and vulnerability
[34:43] and how how they hold us back from
[34:45] being the, often,
[34:46] the, most daring people that we might be
[34:49] able to be, it is critical. Clearly, one
[34:51] of the things that sets apart you and
[34:53] I actually getting to know each other in
[34:55] reality, which we are beginning to communicate this
[34:58] way, but or the five senses as well
[35:01] because we can hug one another when we're
[35:03] being vulnerable and and say I care about
[35:05] you and thank you for sharing that. We
[35:08] can meet eyes, we smell, we we feel,
[35:10] all those things. That's missing from what we're
[35:13] doing right now. We can see each other
[35:15] and hear each other, but we're missing the
[35:16] other senses.
[35:18] And that vulnerability
[35:19] is critical. Bilateral vulnerability
[35:21] is critical clearly for creating meaningful authentic connections.
[35:26] I I was not very vulnerable as a
[35:28] human for most of my life.
[35:30] I just I just didn't listen to everybody
[35:32] else. I didn't share mine. And only recently
[35:36] am I, I think, at least, beginning to
[35:38] learn how to be more that way. It's
[35:40] not easy, but it is the way to
[35:42] create
[35:43] authentic relationships.
[35:45] You're so right. Until we do that because
[35:47] it's trust at the end of the day,
[35:49] isn't it? And as people trust us or
[35:51] not based on how willing we are to
[35:53] be authentic with them, I think.
[35:56] For sure.
[35:57] Yeah.
[35:59] Yeah. What do you think, though, Yvonne? You
[36:01] brought up vulnerability.
[36:02] There's something
[36:04] beyond that for you that you're thinking?
[36:06] I you know, I I just,
[36:11] I have seen so many folks who who
[36:14] just
[36:16] struggle to let the wall down. Like, there's
[36:17] a sense of self protectiveness.
[36:20] And
[36:20] I think often what we may not realize
[36:23] is, like,
[36:26] there's risk and and
[36:28] vulnerability and of being hurt. Yeah. There's always
[36:31] that risk.
[36:33] But the consequence of not doing it
[36:36] doesn't mean you avoid pain either. You experience
[36:38] the pain of loneliness. So you
[36:40] pain of loneliness. So you you have to
[36:43] choose, you know, whether you're gonna risk the
[36:45] vulnerability with a positive outcome or you're just
[36:47] gonna pull back,
[36:49] but then you run the risk
[36:52] of loneliness. And certainly, if you're never vulnerable
[36:55] or never connect, you will experience loneliness.
[36:58] Right? So,
[36:59] I don't
[37:01] I don't think we
[37:02] we frame it that way. And so the
[37:05] vulnerability
[37:06] seems way scarier to us,
[37:08] but it actually
[37:10] is not the worst outcome. The worst outcome
[37:13] is that we never connect.
[37:16] Oh, that's so wise. And we don't we
[37:18] don't teach that. We teach be perfect.
[37:20] You know? Don't share your flaws because somebody
[37:23] might not like you or you might be
[37:25] less than. And it goes back to something
[37:27] you said, Tom, too, and all of you
[37:28] have said about social media and, you know,
[37:31] how we can create. You said too, Yvonne.
[37:33] You know, you can create what you want
[37:34] to on there, and you don't have to
[37:36] be vulnerable.
[37:37] And we don't because it's uncomfortable, and we
[37:39] don't know how to do that. We're scared
[37:41] folks will not like us anymore Yeah. Or
[37:43] leave or will look weak or any of
[37:45] those things. And That's awesome. The bravest and
[37:47] the most vulnerable is what say is Yeah.
[37:49] Sorry about that. So
[37:51] yeah. And in fact, part of the problem
[37:53] is you create this persona on social media.
[37:56] Right? Yeah. But that's not really on social
[37:59] media.
[38:00] It's not it's what they call anonymous.
[38:02] It actually creeps into your real life
[38:05] because you gain
[38:07] acceptance
[38:08] and you gain attention
[38:10] by putting that persona on social media.
[38:13] There is no way for you psychologically
[38:16] to contain that
[38:18] personality that you've created, that identity
[38:21] on social media.
[38:23] You become that person,
[38:26] and it doesn't matter whether you intend to
[38:28] or not.
[38:29] It's what happens.
[38:31] So you put this big
[38:33] shell up of all these great things,
[38:35] highlight reels of your life. There's a paper
[38:37] out there called highlight reels. And you put
[38:40] this whole thing this whole highlight reel out
[38:42] there, and then in real life, you sit
[38:44] there and you go, well, but if I'm
[38:46] not those highlight reels when I'm in person
[38:49] with my family at Thanksgiving or Christmas or
[38:52] whatever it is you do,
[38:54] I'm not
[38:56] gonna get the kind of attention I do
[38:57] on social media.
[38:59] I'm not gonna get that kind of positive
[39:01] feedback,
[39:02] and then you try to become that person.
[39:05] It it's like we have this idea that
[39:06] we can separate that social media personality
[39:09] and and, like, compartmentalize it and close the
[39:12] door on it, and you can't. You just
[39:15] you you just can't.
[39:17] So, anyway, another
[39:19] and I I know we're getting close, but
[39:21] I just wanna open one more door if
[39:23] it's okay with you guys. Because I'm I'm
[39:25] looking at my buddy my new buddies, Russ
[39:27] and Tom.
[39:28] I I you know, there's data out there
[39:31] that makes you wonder about,
[39:33] gender differences
[39:35] and loneliness
[39:36] and how we express that and what we
[39:39] need and how we're raised
[39:41] and all of those things. And I with
[39:43] with if it's okay with you all, and
[39:45] if it's not, that's fine too. But I
[39:47] just wanna put this out there. Do you
[39:48] all have any thoughts about
[39:50] that perhaps and there are books out there,
[39:52] all kinds of studies too about this, but
[39:55] perhaps differences in in gender and how you
[39:57] all might have been raised or how you
[39:59] see the world socially
[40:01] that might be different and make it even
[40:02] more of a challenge sometimes
[40:05] for
[40:06] for men than women.
[40:07] Yeah. I think I think in general, men
[40:09] are this is very broad generalization. Men are
[40:12] more encouraged in society
[40:15] to sort of handle it on your own
[40:16] when you've got challenges like your
[40:19] almost your your value to the to society
[40:22] is your ability to solve problems and not
[40:23] make a lot of noise about it,
[40:26] and, you know, sort of sort of get
[40:28] things done without,
[40:29] you know, be you're supposed to be the
[40:31] strong one and somehow which I believe, but
[40:34] somehow that got contorted into you're not allowed
[40:37] to ever be weak or show weakness even
[40:38] if you have it,
[40:40] which I think gets pretty pathological. But, no,
[40:42] I think I think there are different expectations
[40:44] culturally for men that lead to places that
[40:46] are hard to it's hard to it makes
[40:48] it hard to, deal with challenges once once
[40:51] we have faced them.
[40:53] Yeah.
[40:54] I think there's also family and things like
[40:56] that that play into this too. Like,
[41:00] there are, like,
[41:01] there are situations
[41:02] that you can be placed in that make
[41:04] it perennially difficult
[41:07] to not be
[41:09] lonely.
[41:10] And I don't know how deep I wanna
[41:11] go into that, but there are there are
[41:14] ways that
[41:16] your family can come out that it is
[41:19] or can be arranged or whatever you wanna
[41:21] say
[41:22] that make it where you are just perpetually
[41:24] in a position of being alone.
[41:27] And that's
[41:28] a very hard and I don't think that's
[41:30] men or women, by the way. I do
[41:31] agree with Tom to some degree that we
[41:33] do have this. I think women
[41:35] have more of the problem, and maybe Yvonne
[41:37] will disagree with me or not, but
[41:39] that it's a different push.
[41:41] There's a different kind of push that makes
[41:44] you lonely.
[41:45] It's not that it doesn't exist.
[41:47] It's that it's different for men and women.
[41:50] That men
[41:51] have certain kinds of things. Like,
[41:54] I was the youngest kid in my class
[41:56] all the way through high school, all the
[41:58] way through school
[41:59] for various reasons, to do with my birthday
[42:02] and all sorts of problems. So I was
[42:04] always the smallest, weakest boy in the class.
[42:08] And that was
[42:09] a disaster
[42:12] for me
[42:14] mentally.
[42:15] So,
[42:17] you know,
[42:18] so I think women face it differently, right,
[42:21] than men do, but there are differences. But,
[42:22] anyway, I don't know how much to, like,
[42:24] go into that.
[42:26] It's it's really interesting, and I, I don't
[42:28] ever like to paint anything with a broad
[42:30] stroke That's not fair to anything. But there
[42:32] is there are a lot of studies that
[42:34] are looking now at some of the differences
[42:36] societal
[42:37] societally
[42:38] is how we've raised, you know, the the
[42:40] different,
[42:41] folks in our in our families and
[42:43] our expectations and all of that. So I
[42:46] think at some point, it's an interesting place
[42:48] to dive. We don't really have time to
[42:49] do that justice right now, but I think
[42:51] you did hit on something that's so important,
[42:53] Russ, about
[42:54] those who feel different,
[42:56] those who are,
[42:58] you know, smaller than everybody else, you know,
[43:00] might have some kind of a thing that
[43:02] makes them stand out, that looks different than
[43:04] others, are much more at risk. And I
[43:07] think part of what I really would love
[43:10] for all of us to do is there
[43:12] are certain things that we can anticipate
[43:15] that a person it might make a person
[43:17] lonely as well when they move away from
[43:19] a place they've lived a long, long time
[43:21] and have to find all new friends,
[43:23] when someone dies and we go through grief,
[43:26] when we go through a divorce, if it's
[43:27] not something that both wanted,
[43:29] one may feel grief, which also may lead
[43:32] to loneliness or feeling like I can't go
[43:34] out and socialize anymore. Something's wrong. And to
[43:37] the extent we can
[43:39] see those things in advance
[43:41] and create structural supports or new rituals or
[43:44] whatever they may be,
[43:46] then I think we are a step ahead
[43:47] as we think about it because prevention,
[43:49] to me, is where this really needs to
[43:51] go, being thoughtful, intentional, and prevention.
[43:54] Yep. And I've I think your your you've
[43:57] mentioned a couple times systems and rituals, and
[44:00] those can be so important. Because if you
[44:02] show up at a thing every week, people
[44:04] expect to see you there.
[44:06] And in general, if you're not there, eventually
[44:08] somebody will say something.
[44:10] And
[44:12] having those systems that kind of
[44:14] or, you know, volunteerism.
[44:16] Right? If if you're doing something
[44:19] and you have a responsibility,
[44:21] you're much more likely to show up and
[44:24] then connect. And I think that
[44:26] those are the kinds of systems we can
[44:29] build into our life to,
[44:31] you know, prevent us from getting too far
[44:33] gone. You know, they they they provide an
[44:36] opportunity
[44:37] to connect
[44:38] and for us to be seen. And,
[44:41] I know that, I know
[44:44] the world is very different for our young
[44:45] adults.
[44:46] I'm married incredibly young, so I've always had,
[44:50] you know, my spouse, my husband.
[44:52] But I have young people in their twenties,
[44:56] and
[44:58] they
[44:59] their the the rate at which they marry
[45:02] and meet and develop,
[45:04] you know, that kind of an intimate relationship
[45:07] takes longer.
[45:08] And,
[45:09] you know, the ones that
[45:11] do well are able to find some sort
[45:14] of community
[45:15] to connect with. Whether I mean, they may
[45:18] they may meet in person and play games
[45:20] together. They may do DND.
[45:22] They may,
[45:24] you know,
[45:25] have crafts or hobbies. Like, it doesn't really
[45:28] matter what the thing is.
[45:30] It's to meet together with folks around either
[45:32] a shared interest or goal or something and
[45:35] connect. And,
[45:38] you know, my oldest went to college and
[45:41] really isolated for the first six weeks and
[45:43] called and was like, I'm tired. I don't
[45:44] wanna do this anymore. I wanna come home.
[45:46] I'll just study at home. And, like and
[45:47] as we began to unpack what was going
[45:49] on,
[45:51] he'd been sitting in his dorm the whole
[45:52] time. And we're like, bud, you gotta get
[45:54] out of your dorm room. You gotta go
[45:56] see people. You gotta connect.
[45:58] But those are skills
[46:00] that have to be learned. They are. And
[46:02] we have to we have to be aware
[46:03] and teach those skills all over the place
[46:06] now. And they also is, you know, what
[46:08] do you enjoy doing?
[46:09] Find something you enjoy doing and get out
[46:11] and doing it. And and we have to
[46:13] provide those those skills and opportunities for people.
[46:16] Being outside
[46:17] is also when especially outside in community,
[46:20] we find, in looking at research as one
[46:22] of the best things we can do for
[46:23] ourselves.
[46:24] And I would suggest the other thing that
[46:26] we've not mentioned is a sense of purpose.
[46:29] Because to the extent that we feel a
[46:31] sense of purpose, that something
[46:33] is getting us up in the morning and
[46:35] causing us to find pleasure
[46:38] with something,
[46:39] also in that same way, often connects us
[46:40] with others.
[46:42] And that, I think, is one of those
[46:44] basic human needs that we all have to
[46:46] have that also serves as a connector. Just
[46:48] why when people retire sometimes and they lose
[46:50] that sense of purpose, they become very lonely
[46:53] as well. They don't go out. And by
[46:55] the way, that ties into being laid off.
[46:58] And there are a lot of lay offs
[46:59] right now. And Yeah. People don't understand how
[47:03] bad on your psyche being laid off is.
[47:06] It's
[47:06] horrible. But, anyway
[47:09] So we might encourage folks then if you
[47:10] know someone or you yourself
[47:12] have been laid off. This is really important
[47:15] right now for those of us who may
[47:17] know somebody who is to reach out to
[47:19] them, to be a part of their lives,
[47:21] to anticipate,
[47:23] to to support,
[47:24] and those who have been, to make sure
[47:26] they find community. They find something as well
[47:29] that keeps them connected and going in the
[47:31] world.
[47:32] Yeah.
[47:35] Alright. Well,
[47:36] we've been at this, and I think we've
[47:37] covered it pretty well.
[47:39] Lucy, thanks for coming on. And by the
[47:41] way, I said this before the show, before
[47:43] we started recording.
[47:44] If you wanna talk about this some more,
[47:47] we're here. We can arrange a time to
[47:49] chat, just set up a time to do
[47:50] it, do another recording, gotta make sure Yvonne
[47:53] can make it,
[47:55] you know, because
[47:56] she's our people person.
[47:58] Unlike Tom and I, we're much closer to
[48:00] that. That's not true. All the plants are
[48:03] people. All three of you are people people.
[48:04] That's for sure. Tom Tom's a plant person,
[48:07] and I'm a hedgehog. So there you go.
[48:09] Same thing.
[48:11] Alright.
[48:12] So,
[48:13] alright. Cool. So, Lucy, tell us about your
[48:15] book a little bit before we jump off
[48:18] and start closing down.
[48:20] Well, I wish I had a book. I
[48:22] don't. I have not yet written a book
[48:23] on this topic. Oh, I thought you had.
[48:25] So go ahead. Have one. That will be
[48:27] lovely, and, I
[48:30] that's in the future. But right now, I
[48:32] have one published. But our my website is,
[48:34] thecostofloneliness.org,
[48:36] and I would really encourage folks to check
[48:38] out that website.
[48:39] We are expanding it. It will be much
[48:41] larger,
[48:43] and more current very shortly. But even for
[48:45] now, it's a way to reach out and
[48:47] to connect. So I'd love for people to
[48:49] do that if they will and,
[48:51] let us know, you know, what we can
[48:52] do as well in your minds to support
[48:54] us. And if you have ideas for connection,
[48:56] to share those as well. Because one of
[48:58] the things we'll use amplifying and sharing.
[49:00] That's cool.
[49:01] Alright.
[49:02] So the costofloneliness.com,
[49:04] you said, or .org? .Org.
[49:06] .Org. Alright. Cool.
[49:08] Okay.
[49:09] My my memory my mind is like a
[49:11] steel sieve. Only the big chunks stick. I
[49:13] I Hedgehogs have trouble with that.
[49:17] So so, anyway,
[49:19] alright.
[49:20] So,
[49:22] Tom, where can people find you?
[49:25] LinkedIn.
[49:26] So he has to pause. He has the
[49:29] That's my signature.
[49:32] Make you think about it.
[49:35] Make you wonder if there's gonna be something
[49:38] else after that, but, nope. It's not. I'm
[49:40] on LinkedIn too, by the way, Russ, and
[49:41] would love to connect with anyone who'd like
[49:43] to connect with me as well. Cool. I
[49:44] totally forgot to ask you about LinkedIn, but,
[49:46] sure. Are you on x or just LinkedIn?
[49:49] I'm not. Who's driving? Okay. Alright.
[49:52] Alright. Yvonne, where can people find the frog
[49:55] lamp?
[49:56] Well, the frog lamp is in the she
[49:58] shed in my backyard,
[50:00] which if you are ever in the Louisville
[50:02] area, let me know. And
[50:04] if you're willing to drive to the sticks,
[50:07] you're you're welcome to I'll I'll even fix
[50:09] you a meal. But,
[50:12] where do they find me? They find me
[50:14] on LinkedIn,
[50:15] also on Twitter, x at Sharp Network.
[50:18] Yeah. Reach out. Say hi. Alright. Cool. I'm
[50:21] Russell White. You can find me here at
[50:22] the hedge on rule11.tech.
[50:24] I'm occasionally
[50:25] on x. I'm on LinkedIn
[50:28] once or twice a day. So if you
[50:29] wanna PM me there, that's great. And we
[50:31] know
[50:33] we live in an attention driven economy. And
[50:34] we thank you for listening all the way
[50:36] to the bitter end of this episode of
[50:38] the hedge. And we will catch you next
[50:41] time.

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