# Hedge 314: Questions from a New Engineer

An episode of [The Hedge](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1473947013), 1 Aug 2026, 53 min.

Audio: https://media.blubrry.com/hedge/media.blubrry.com/hedge/content.blubrry.com/hedge/hedge-314.mp3

Sometimes we can be so focused on the problems in front of us that we forget the people who are following in our footsteps. Michael McCollum, a new network engineer, joins Tom and Russ to ask questions about life as a network engineer. https://media.blubrry.com/hedge/media.blubrry.com/hedge/content.blubrry.com/hedge/hedge-314.mp3 download

## Transcript

[0:01] - Join us as we gather around the hedge,
[0:03] - where we dig into technology, business, and culture
[0:06] - with the finest minds in computer networking.
[0:20] - Well, hello, Tom.
[0:22] - If Tom disappears in the middle of the
[0:25] - show, it's because he has unexploded
[0:27] - Tom and
[0:28] - and Audrey disappear in the middle of the
[0:30] - show. It's because he has unexploded ordinance in
[0:33] - the back corner.
[0:34] - And, you know
[0:37] - Yep. We we live dangerously here in the
[0:39] - Ammon household. So
[0:42] - if you hear a a boom and it's
[0:43] - cut off all of a sudden, that means
[0:45] - that the the the editor got rid of
[0:46] - it before I died. So
[0:51] - Well, it happens.
[0:55] - Alright. And today, we are joined by Mike
[0:57] - McCollum.
[0:58] - And you are in Savannah right now, or
[1:00] - are you in in up more in the
[1:02] - Myrtle Beach area at the moment? Are you
[1:04] - you said you live in Savannah. So you're
[1:06] - in Savannah. Okay. Cool.
[1:08] - Yep. I know Savannah well. I grew up
[1:10] - in Georgia. Not that part of Georgia, but
[1:12] - I grew up in Georgia. And,
[1:15] - you know, I've been in Myrtle Beach many
[1:17] - times and in
[1:19] - all of that around in and around Little
[1:22] - River and all that area a lot for
[1:24] - various reasons. So cool.
[1:26] - Alright. So today's show is a little bit
[1:28] - different.
[1:31] - By the way, hi, Audrey.
[1:34] - Audrey Audrey says hi, and thanks you for
[1:36] - acknowledging her.
[1:40] - Today's show is a little bit different. What
[1:41] - we're gonna do is Mike is going to
[1:43] - ask Tom and I questions, and then we
[1:45] - are going to endeavor to answer them. We
[1:48] - will see if we succeed
[1:50] - or not succeed.
[1:52] - To fail or not to fail, that is
[1:54] - the question.
[1:55] - So that's basically the one that fails.
[1:58] - Well, maybe, hey, maybe, Russ, maybe we could
[2:00] - start with Michael. You just give us a
[2:02] - real quick introduction to who you are and
[2:03] - kinda Yeah. What you're doing and stuff. Yeah.
[2:06] - Oh, yeah.
[2:08] - So,
[2:10] - Michael,
[2:11] - I
[2:13] - started out as a network engineer,
[2:15] - about
[2:16] - almost a year ago now.
[2:20] - I work in the
[2:22] - like, in a health care environment,
[2:25] - and,
[2:27] - we kinda do a lot of stuff.
[2:30] - We do the racking and stacking. We,
[2:33] - kind of responsible for
[2:35] - wireless, wired,
[2:41] - Got a lot of stuff we're responsible for,
[2:43] - but,
[2:45] - so they will not
[2:47] - Everything in the network is what you're saying?
[2:49] - Pretty much. Okay.
[2:52] - We don't do firewalls, but that's it
[2:54] - in our Okay.
[2:57] - Company. Yeah.
[2:59] - Awesome.
[3:00] - I don't think you should have them anyway,
[3:01] - so that's okay.
[3:05] - In our last recording, Russ was making fun
[3:07] - of firewalls, so it was great.
[3:09] - Yeah.
[3:10] - It's
[3:11] - another yet another marketing term that we've come
[3:14] - up with in networking that, like, whatever.
[3:17] - Alright.
[3:19] - So, Mike, fire away. What do you wanna
[3:21] - know about the network engineering world?
[3:27] - Probably gonna start more on, like, the
[3:29] - how to deal with the managing side of
[3:32] - it and, like, the how to,
[3:34] - I guess, the
[3:36] - work side of it, I guess.
[3:38] - Okay. Like, how
[3:41] - how do you,
[3:43] - like, start the conversation to, like,
[3:46] - your boss or whatever to understand, like, what
[3:48] - the expectations are, like, for
[3:50] - you, for, like, growth and all that kind
[3:53] - of stuff.
[3:54] - Okay. Interesting. Yeah. So
[3:57] - I don't know. It it's just actually can
[3:59] - that's a really hard question to answer because
[4:01] - it's gonna depend on the job and the
[4:02] - situation.
[4:05] - By and large,
[4:06] - I think the way I always start is
[4:08] - trying to understand the problem
[4:11] - that my manager and my team are trying
[4:13] - to solve.
[4:14] - Where do I live in the company? What
[4:16] - is the problem this company is trying to
[4:18] - solve?
[4:18] - And
[4:20] - let my manager work from the business side
[4:23] - and let me figure out the technical side
[4:25] - of that as much as possible. Now most
[4:27] - of the time, I have technical man moderately
[4:29] - technical managers or or technical managers to one
[4:32] - degree or another. But,
[4:34] - nonetheless,
[4:36] - you know, I try to I try to,
[4:37] - like, understand the business side and work from
[4:40] - that as to what expectations are. So what
[4:43] - do you think, Tom? Yeah. Yeah. And and
[4:45] - I would say,
[4:46] - just to kinda build on what Russ is
[4:48] - saying,
[4:49] - you wanna you want to go and have
[4:51] - this conversation with your boss having some
[4:54] - having done some research, and it doesn't have
[4:56] - to be
[4:57] - anything extensive. But, really, it just takes the
[4:58] - form of pay attention in meetings to what's
[5:01] - going on,
[5:02] - understand what your team does. If you had
[5:03] - a couple of conversations with, some of your
[5:06] - colleagues, people that work on your team, and
[5:08] - ask them what kind of what do you
[5:09] - do here sort of thing. Understanding kind of,
[5:12] - you know, and this and it depends, like,
[5:13] - Russell say, it depends, how long you've been
[5:15] - in the role that you're currently in. If
[5:17] - you're asking that question as soon as you've
[5:19] - been hired, that would be one type of
[5:21] - conversation. But if you've been there for a
[5:23] - year, then it would be a little bit
[5:24] - different. You'd probably be expected to know a
[5:26] - little bit more about, things as they currently
[5:28] - are.
[5:29] - But then once you've got that research in
[5:31] - that context about kind of what your team
[5:33] - does,
[5:34] - then you can ask the question. And and
[5:36] - I most managers, you can just be straight
[5:38] - up with them. Hey. What do you want
[5:39] - from me? What is what are your expectations?
[5:42] - What do you what what's gonna make you
[5:43] - wanna give me a good review? And I
[5:45] - think I think most managers, whether they're mediocre
[5:47] - or whether they're great, they're gonna be able
[5:49] - to answer that question pretty well for you.
[5:51] - And it's a great way to just start
[5:53] - a relationship of candor. I
[5:55] - with my managers, I feel like I've always
[5:57] - had the, the attitude of, if you don't
[5:59] - wanna know the answer to a question, don't
[6:01] - ask me. This is what I tell my
[6:02] - managers because sometimes people don't wanna know. But,
[6:05] - but otherwise,
[6:07] - tell me what you need from me. And
[6:08] - it's, I think it's pretty healthy to communicate
[6:10] - that way. Yeah. I would I would say
[6:12] - there is one area of danger here that
[6:15] - a lot of people don't necessarily
[6:17] - recognize,
[6:18] - which is that
[6:19] - some managers
[6:20] - may take that question
[6:22] - as a sign of being
[6:24] - disengaged
[6:25] - or disconnected.
[6:27] - And so,
[6:28] - you know, just feel out
[6:32] - how your manager in particular
[6:35] - deals with that kind of thing
[6:37] - because I've actually had it happen to me
[6:39] - where somebody said, I said to them, you
[6:41] - know, well, what is it you expect? And
[6:43] - they said, what? Are you so disengaged
[6:45] - that
[6:46] - you don't know?
[6:48] - Right? Like, are you not paying attention enough
[6:51] - not to know the answer to that question?
[6:53] - I don't think that's a fair
[6:55] - answer.
[6:56] - I'm just saying that's that's
[6:58] - just
[7:00] - a place that you need to be careful
[7:02] - and just know that that you know, feel
[7:05] - out. And and for that type of thing,
[7:08] - it's often useful to ask teammates.
[7:11] - If you have teammates, like, what what might
[7:13] - the reaction be to this kind of question
[7:15] - if you're at least if at all uncertain
[7:18] - about that happening.
[7:21] - Yeah. I I definitely, like, went in, and
[7:23] - I had this,
[7:25] - like, a small conversation like this with my
[7:28] - manager when I started the job.
[7:30] - But at the same time, it was like
[7:32] - I wasn't entirely sure what to ask or,
[7:34] - like, where to go with it. So I
[7:36] - was like I thought that was a
[7:40] - good thing to try and understand, I guess.
[7:42] - I
[7:44] - Yeah. Yeah. I I think it's perfectly reasonable.
[7:47] - But, yeah, I'm just you know, there's
[7:50] - there's always trade offs. There's always danger.
[7:53] - Yeah.
[7:55] - I mean yeah.
[7:57] - It you always never I don't know. The
[7:59] - way I come to see some of this
[8:01] - is, like, I never wanna
[8:03] - even though people say there's no stupid questions,
[8:05] - like, you never wanna come off and ask
[8:07] - the thing that, like, everyone's like, why why
[8:09] - did you ask this question? Like, there's no
[8:11] - point. It's like, you should know what your
[8:12] - job is or whatever.
[8:14] - And Right. Exactly.
[8:16] - Yeah.
[8:17] - So I think I think all that's very
[8:19] - valid.
[8:20] - Yeah.
[8:22] - Speaking
[8:24] - on that too a bit, like, when
[8:27] - when you, like, start in a place, like,
[8:29] - is it
[8:31] - better to,
[8:33] - like, branch out and try and learn, like,
[8:35] - everything
[8:37] - that you're doing there and, like, at least
[8:39] - the basics of everything, or should you kind
[8:42] - of,
[8:43] - like,
[8:44] - focus a bit more on other stuff? Because
[8:46] - I know, like,
[8:48] - where I work, there's
[8:50] - some people that, like, have really focused in
[8:52] - areas and don't really touch anything else.
[8:58] - But I like knowing everything, so
[9:01] - I don't know how So there's actually an
[9:03] - opportunity here. So you you may see this
[9:05] - if you search for I shaped versus t
[9:06] - shaped skills. So if you think of just
[9:08] - the shape of a of a capital letter
[9:10] - I, right, it's very vertical and a t,
[9:12] - but a t is both. It's both vertical
[9:14] - and
[9:15] - horizontal. And I think the idea there is
[9:17] - you wanna be t shaped, meaning you have
[9:19] - some things that you're deep in, you know,
[9:22] - a a a small number of things that
[9:23] - you're narrowly,
[9:24] - really good at. Some people call this subject
[9:26] - matter expertise.
[9:28] - But but you want but you wanna combine
[9:30] - that with having broad exposure
[9:33] - and and and by definition, broad but shallow
[9:35] - exposure. So if there's, you know, 20 different
[9:38] - technologies in your network, you should be able
[9:40] - to dispute at least describe all of them.
[9:42] - And then one or two of them, you
[9:44] - should be the go to person that knows
[9:46] - how to fix that thing or knows how
[9:47] - that thing works or how it was built.
[9:50] - Generally,
[9:51] - in my career, I found that to be
[9:52] - you it's useful to be like a really
[9:54] - like an expert that people can come to
[9:56] - you when they're in trouble, when they need
[9:57] - this to work. And it's also good to
[9:59] - have,
[10:00] - familiarity so you can contribute in meetings and
[10:02] - so you can make contributions to design discussions
[10:05] - and things like that.
[10:07] - Yeah. And I and I would say you
[10:09] - should, across your career, be very intentional
[10:13] - about
[10:14] - expanding the so, like, Tom said, you know,
[10:17] - you have this t shaped knowledge idea
[10:20] - where it's you're deep in one thing and
[10:22] - broader in other things that you're deepening
[10:25] - all of that at the same time.
[10:28] - Right? That you're being very intentional that you're
[10:31] - not
[10:32] - like, if you if you say the ratio,
[10:34] - like, if you could draw it out in
[10:36] - a chart and say, oh, the ratio of
[10:37] - my deep to my shallow is three to
[10:40] - one or two to one or whatever it
[10:41] - happens to be, that you try to keep
[10:43] - that ratio the same
[10:45] - over time, that you don't allow yourself to
[10:47] - become super, super deep while letting the other
[10:50] - shallow parts remain stable or fall off.
[10:55] - And at the same time that you don't
[10:57] - lose and and by the way, the the
[10:59] - the the deep part can become wider over
[11:03] - time
[11:04] - as well. Like, you can move from being
[11:06] - an expert in BGP to being an expert
[11:08] - in routing protocols.
[11:11] - Right? You can pick up adjacent things
[11:13] - and and be really deep in those things.
[11:16] - So that's that's kinda my perspective on
[11:19] - the whole knowledge graph shape of knowledge graph
[11:22] - type of thing.
[11:24] - And you're and what you do at the
[11:25] - beginning of your career while you're young,
[11:28] - is gonna shape your attitudes towards learning and
[11:30] - work. Like, you you are in charge of
[11:32] - your own your own habits, your own the
[11:34] - way you approach things. And if you if
[11:36] - you're intentional now and you say, I wanna
[11:38] - I wanna be like this. I wanna have
[11:39] - this sort of ratio and then do some
[11:41] - thinking about it, then, to some degree, it'll
[11:43] - become automatic,
[11:45] - as you move forward in your career. But
[11:47] - if you're if you're not intentional about it,
[11:48] - if you're just like, well, I'll just follow
[11:50] - the latest trend. I'll just what whatever's what's
[11:52] - on LinkedIn right now,
[11:54] - it'll it'll be difficult.
[11:55] - You'll end up scrambling all the time. But
[11:57] - if you're intentional about it and then your
[11:59] - habits will stay with you.
[12:01] - Yeah. I'll say, like, that there's definitely one
[12:03] - thing that I've
[12:05] - struggled a bit with is, like, I
[12:09] - I don't, like, I don't follow, like, all
[12:11] - the latest trends, but
[12:14] - it's, like, the
[12:16] - the project of the week,
[12:18] - at work. And it's like, okay. So well,
[12:19] - we need to handle this thing, and I'll
[12:21] - start, like, working on that. And, like, I'll
[12:24] - learn everything there is to know about that
[12:26] - for what needs to be done, and then
[12:30] - I'll move on to the next project because
[12:32] - we have something else going on next week
[12:34] - or whatever. And,
[12:37] - I definitely think I need to get
[12:39] - more intentional about, like, how I'm
[12:42] - doing,
[12:43] - like, spending that time or, like, learning those
[12:45] - things.
[12:47] - And,
[12:51] - how do you how do you all stay
[12:52] - organized?
[12:53] - Like, how
[12:55] - with you with having, like, so many things
[12:57] - coming at you at once, it's like, how
[12:59] - do
[13:00] - you piece all of them together and stay
[13:02] - keep it all,
[13:04] - like, controlled?
[13:05] - Wow. Yeah. So
[13:08] - so
[13:09] - I have many, many techniques. The first is
[13:13] - I've I use an RSS feed feed feeder
[13:15] - read reader and or RSF RSS feed reader,
[13:19] - and I am very intentional about converting as
[13:21] - much information as I can to RSS feeds
[13:24] - that's incoming stuff because I find that it
[13:27] - helps me keep up
[13:29] - better than email. Email feels hopeless after a
[13:31] - while,
[13:32] - just having lots and lots of stuff in
[13:34] - my email. Whereas in RSS feed, it feels
[13:38] - easier to me to glance
[13:40] - through and mark stuff red
[13:42] - and set things. Like, I can actually go
[13:44] - into a mode where as I scroll through,
[13:47] - it marks everything that scrolls off the screen
[13:49] - red.
[13:50] - So I can just quickly scroll. I can
[13:52] - mark things read later very quickly and then
[13:55] - go back and after I've organized them.
[13:58] - I even discovered recently that in the reader
[14:01] - I use Feedly, you can actually create a
[14:03] - Feedly email address, and anything that goes to
[14:06] - that email address gets converted into an entry
[14:08] - in the RSS feed.
[14:10] - And so I can actually take mailing list
[14:12] - and take the mailing list and stick it
[14:14] - in the RSS reader, which I find extraordinarily
[14:17] - helpful.
[14:18] - So inbound information, that's one thing. And then
[14:21] - I'm
[14:22] - I do keep a folder of stuff I
[14:24] - need to read, which is always way behind,
[14:27] - but I do PDF everything.
[14:29] - And then I read it in PDF format,
[14:31] - and I'm very organized
[14:33] - about
[14:34] - putting things into folders,
[14:37] - on my network attached storage. So I have
[14:39] - a big, you know, thing that I can
[14:40] - search through because they're in PDF. I can
[14:42] - actually do text searches through those. I also
[14:45] - use Zotero to just organize those. So, like,
[14:49] - I don't know if you know what Zotero
[14:50] - is, but Zotero is really designed for researchers
[14:53] - who are doing,
[14:56] - research papers and stuff like that. And so
[14:58] - it's a way to organize all your source
[15:00] - material, but it's actually just a good library
[15:02] - management system as well. And so I just
[15:05] - find create Zotero entries, biblio entries for everything
[15:10] - with a little abstract
[15:11] - in each one, and then I can search
[15:13] - through the abstracts, and I can glance through.
[15:16] - And even though I have
[15:18] - well over a thousand papers saved up, it's
[15:21] - actually fairly easy for me to run through
[15:23] - Zotero, find the ones that seem interesting,
[15:26] - pop those up, do a do a text
[15:28] - search across them, stuff like that. So that's
[15:31] - that's I even do that with books and
[15:33] - other things as well.
[15:35] - On the other side of my life,
[15:38] - I am a very big to do list
[15:40] - user.
[15:41] - I use to do list specifically. There's lots
[15:43] - of those out there that you can use,
[15:46] - and
[15:47] - I live my life in OneNote.
[15:50] - My entire everything that I store, everything that
[15:52] - I do, some people like text files organized
[15:55] - into folders.
[15:57] - I find OneNote to be the most. I've
[15:59] - tried all sorts of different systems.
[16:01] - OneNote's the one that works for me, so
[16:03] - that's what I use.
[16:05] - It's cross device, blah blah blah.
[16:08] - So that's kind of practically nuts and bolts.
[16:11] - The way I manage things is I have
[16:13] - two or three different places where I store
[16:15] - information. I'm very
[16:17] - disciplined
[16:18] - about if it's a piece of information that's
[16:20] - inbound.
[16:21] - If it's a paper, it goes into Zotero,
[16:24] - and it goes in a folder. If it's
[16:26] - not a paper, if it's a note of
[16:27] - some kind, it goes into OneNote,
[16:30] - and it stays in there, and I can
[16:32] - do searches across that that information.
[16:36] - So I don't know. Tom, how do how
[16:38] - do you deal with this? Yeah. So I'm
[16:40] - definitely less formal, less disciplined than Russ.
[16:43] - A lot of my stuff ends up in
[16:45] - markdown files, and there's usually a directory,
[16:49] - somewhere that has, things that I'm reading, things
[16:51] - that I'm try that I would like to
[16:53] - read later.
[16:54] - And I've I've gone through a couple of
[16:56] - different systems. Like, I I went through a
[16:58] - phase where I had my own media wiki
[17:00] - and just my own my own wiki where
[17:02] - I where I would would do things. And
[17:04] - and over time, I got sort of tired
[17:06] - of care and feeding for all that software
[17:08] - when all I wanted to do is was
[17:09] - write some notes and remember some stuff. And
[17:11] - so,
[17:12] - so I kind of keep coming back to
[17:13] - just a collection of plain text files.
[17:16] - And then, you know, just the the the
[17:18] - typical
[17:19] - calendar and and to do list. I mean,
[17:21] - there's a bunch of different choices, but,
[17:23] - that's kind of the
[17:25] - the basics for me. And my
[17:27] - my learning tends to be focused on
[17:30] - the work that I'm doing. So, my as
[17:33] - as I go into a new job, one
[17:34] - of the big one of the big things
[17:36] - that is, really important for me is how
[17:39] - is this gonna move me forward in my
[17:41] - ability to solve problems in the future? What
[17:43] - will I what how will I become better
[17:45] - as a result of this job?
[17:47] - And, there are definitely times when that
[17:49] - has has outweighed the pay part of it.
[17:52] - Anyway, the reason I bring that up is
[17:54] - that every job that I work at, I've
[17:55] - got this collection of of notes and stuff.
[17:58] - And
[17:59] - the work that I'm doing for employers tends
[18:01] - to that that's what I'm focused on. I
[18:04] - don't I don't publish books. I don't publish
[18:06] - articles,
[18:07] - but but trying to keep notes about the
[18:09] - stuff I'm working on day to day. And
[18:11] - what that means is that I had to
[18:13] - be more intentional about my employment choices because
[18:15] - it's going to shape what kinds of capabilities
[18:17] - I develop over time.
[18:19] - But that's worked pretty well for me, and
[18:21] - I feel like I've I've, you know, less
[18:23] - organized, but I think more of a have
[18:26] - the experiences that I need to have and
[18:27] - document them.
[18:32] - Yep.
[18:34] - Yeah. I,
[18:35] - currently,
[18:36] - I have, like, OneNote, and then I have,
[18:38] - like, plain text files stored in, like, different
[18:41] - folders. And I've been trying to figure out,
[18:43] - like, what
[18:46] - what works and what doesn't. And
[18:49] - it's
[18:50] - tough sometimes.
[18:52] - Oh, yes. And you'll go through a bunch
[18:54] - of different systems in your life too. Yeah.
[18:56] - Yeah. Because it, like, I'll be on a
[18:59] - kick, and it's, like, one month I'm just
[19:01] - using OneNote, and it's, like, every it's, like,
[19:03] - man, everything just works. This is great. And
[19:05] - then I get to one thing, and it's
[19:06] - like, well, this doesn't make sense to put
[19:07] - in the OneNote.
[19:08] - It needs to be in a file somewhere
[19:10] - else so other people can grab it or
[19:12] - whatever.
[19:13] - I'm like
[19:15] - but I don't like it being there. And
[19:16] - then I start putting everything in those files
[19:18] - instead of
[19:19] - putting things in OneNote and it's in it.
[19:21] - Yeah. Right. Been a mess.
[19:23] - And so and so this is why I
[19:24] - use this is why I use Zotero
[19:28] - for, like,
[19:29] - as an index into my file set,
[19:31] - but I do keep files. Because there are
[19:33] - a lot of things like you said, you
[19:34] - can't put the, I mean, you could in
[19:36] - theory. Right? You can drag and drop files
[19:38] - directly into OneNote. You can actually
[19:41] - if you're totally a Microsoft person, you can
[19:44] - put them in OneDrive,
[19:45] - copy the link, put it into
[19:47] - OneNote, then you have it, and you can
[19:49] - then share. Right? But but different people like
[19:52] - different things about that or don't like. Right?
[19:54] - And so that's that is an issue. But
[19:56] - I would say you definitely need to think
[19:58] - very carefully about,
[20:01] - you need to organize
[20:03] - files
[20:05] - separately
[20:06] - from notes
[20:07] - because otherwise, you will go nuts trying to
[20:10] - figure out how to make those work
[20:12] - together.
[20:13] - Right? That that becomes a problem.
[20:16] - And so in mailing list and inbound stuff,
[20:19] - you need to be very,
[20:21] - very,
[20:22] - very conscious
[20:24] - of how you deal with those things.
[20:26] - I mean, even for instance, if I find
[20:28] - an article now that I get an email,
[20:30] - because I do get a bunch of email
[20:32] - as well off mailing list. And so my
[20:34] - email, you know, some I'll get a a
[20:36] - a full on article.
[20:37] - I'll actually
[20:39] - create a PDF from that,
[20:42] - turn it into a file,
[20:44] - give it a name, make an abstract,
[20:47] - put it in Zotero,
[20:49] - or put it
[20:50] - into OneNote
[20:52] - so that I can find it. I try
[20:54] - not I try not to use
[20:56] - email as an index.
[20:59] - Right? Because email is very strictly for inbound
[21:02] - stuff, not for indexing.
[21:05] - Right? And so I I think I think
[21:07] - it is kind of important to, like, segregate
[21:09] - out
[21:10] - inbound information flow
[21:12] - from
[21:13] - indexing and storage
[21:16] - in a way you look at later?
[21:18] - Yeah. Yeah. Right. That helps you that helps
[21:20] - you understand.
[21:22] - Like, if I'm looking for this, I look
[21:23] - here.
[21:24] - And I know some people just leave everything
[21:26] - in email. And fine for them, they like
[21:29] - search and email or whatever. I find search
[21:31] - and email to be horrendous.
[21:33] - I I can't ever find anything in email.
[21:35] - It would no matter what search I throw
[21:37] - at it. So, like, whatever. I'm just not
[21:39] - gonna do that. And beyond that, I find
[21:41] - email inboxes. I find
[21:43] - I find 1,000
[21:46] - email folders or 10,000 email folders to be
[21:49] - just straight up intimidating.
[21:51] - Like, I just don't wanna I didn't wanna
[21:52] - spend through a thousand,
[21:55] - subject
[21:56] - lines.
[21:58] - When you talk about emails so much, I
[22:00] - was gonna ask, are you zero, like, unread
[22:02] - people, or are you,
[22:04] - like,
[22:05] - 15,000
[22:06] - unread?
[22:07] - No. I I I I do try to
[22:09] - keep my in I try to keep all
[22:11] - my folders down under, like, 20,
[22:14] - but zero seems to be impossible.
[22:17] - We're this is so interesting. You said 15,000.
[22:20] - I just looked at my inbox, 15,450
[22:23] - unread.
[22:24] - Yeah. Okay. So,
[22:25] - we'll let you know, I think we're normal
[22:28] - people and Russ might just be crazy.
[22:32] - I never heard him claim that he was
[22:34] - normal, by the way.
[22:36] - I've never heard that either.
[22:37] - But
[22:40] - I did. I do that. First time. You
[22:41] - know? Yeah. So I do but, I mean,
[22:43] - I do also sort my email. A lot
[22:45] - of people think I'm crazy because I do
[22:47] - have all of my mailing list go into
[22:49] - a folder,
[22:50] - and everything that's to me goes into a
[22:52] - separate folder.
[22:53] - I don't I don't mix
[22:55] - mailing list traffic
[22:57] - with to me traffic.
[22:59] - And it's okay if it's only two folders.
[23:01] - I've gone to two folders. Right now, I
[23:03] - have four or five. It's not a lot.
[23:05] - It's kind of, like, a bit topical. One
[23:07] - of the reasons I do that is because
[23:09] - at the end of the day,
[23:11] - if I know that there's 200 emails in
[23:14] - that folder with mailing list stuff,
[23:17] - I'm never gonna get to it.
[23:21] - Control a, delete.
[23:24] - Thank you. Goodbye.
[23:26] - There is absolutely no reason for me to
[23:28] - keep 200 emails in my folder for for
[23:31] - mailing list when I just know I know.
[23:34] - I'm never gonna get to reading those. Why
[23:36] - why are they there? All they're doing is
[23:38] - clogging up my search and
[23:40] - See, what I do is I just don't
[23:42] - even subscribe to the mailing list. I'm never
[23:43] - gonna read that. Why would I even
[23:46] - burn the calories to click control a? You
[23:48] - know? So Yeah. I don't know. Maybe that
[23:50] - means I've disconnected from the world, but I
[23:52] - don't know.
[23:55] - What else are you gonna tackle? Like, all
[23:57] - the I just have all the, like, promotion
[23:59] - emails showing up, and it's like, get him
[24:01] - out of here. I don't want you. Yeah.
[24:03] - Oh, well, I'm an extensive filter.
[24:05] - I do have
[24:06] - very extensive
[24:08] - mail filters. In fact, when I was at
[24:10] - Cisco, we used to have Procmail.
[24:13] - And on our on our Linux host for
[24:16] - our mail server, for our for our MTA,
[24:18] - I loved Procmail. My Procmail
[24:21] - my Procmail filter was, like, two or 3,000
[24:23] - lines of filtering. Like, it's crazy.
[24:26] - And I and I have tons of filter.
[24:28] - So, anyway
[24:34] - so,
[24:36] - one thing I wanted to ask about is,
[24:38] - like,
[24:40] - as far as design goes, like, I'm I'm
[24:43] - an engineer. I'm not doing most I'm not
[24:45] - doing, like, really any of the designs
[24:47] - or anything, but
[24:49] - I'd like to
[24:51] - at least
[24:52] - listen in on those conversations or, like, at
[24:54] - least talk about it and understand, like, what's
[24:56] - happening and, like, why we're doing things. So
[24:59] - it gives me, like, a better understanding. Like,
[25:01] - how do you
[25:03] - how do you think, like, someone should go
[25:06] - about
[25:07] - asking for that? Like, asking
[25:10] - to be part of those conversations?
[25:14] - What do you think, Russ? Yeah.
[25:15] - I I well,
[25:17] - my my thing is just just show up.
[25:21] - I mean,
[25:22] - ask to be included in the meanings and
[25:24] - show up. Just don't say anything unless you're
[25:27] - 99% certain
[25:29] - that you actually have something to contribute,
[25:32] - you know, for a while. You know, it
[25:34] - takes a while to get.
[25:35] - And and
[25:37] - but on the other hand, don't be totally
[25:38] - silent because nobody will ever figure out that
[25:41] - you know or even have any clue about
[25:43] - what you're doing. So there's a balance in
[25:45] - there someplace.
[25:46] - Not that I haven't made a fool of
[25:48] - myself in multiple occasions
[25:50] - on doing design work, but that's okay.
[25:54] - So my thing is just show up. Like,
[25:57] - just just,
[26:00] - I don't know. I still do that. People
[26:02] - will have meetings, and
[26:04] - somebody
[26:05] - that I'm talking to will say, oh, I
[26:07] - I have to go to this other meeting.
[26:08] - And I'll say, okay. What meeting is that?
[26:10] - And they'll say, oh, it's this, this, this.
[26:12] - And I'm like, oh,
[26:14] - okay. I'll be there too. Like,
[26:17] - you know, just show up.
[26:19] - That's what I find most of the time.
[26:21] - You can
[26:22] - I think we're we hesitate?
[26:24] - So you so I totally agree. And in
[26:27] - in addition,
[26:28] - I would at the or especially at the
[26:29] - beginning of your career as a network engineer,
[26:31] - I would show up and ask one question,
[26:34] - one insightful, well reasoned question for the whole
[26:37] - meeting. What you don't wanna be is you
[26:38] - don't wanna be the guy who's con slowing
[26:40] - everything down and constantly quizzing everybody about the
[26:42] - whole thing. You don't wanna be that. But
[26:44] - I think in our in our,
[26:47] - I don't know, our cautiousness about that, we
[26:48] - just shut up and sit quiet. And there
[26:50] - are way too many people in meetings that
[26:52] - I'm in that are just sitting there doing
[26:53] - nothing. Like, they maybe they're thinking, but they're
[26:55] - not contributing. And to me, that's like, why
[26:57] - are you here? But if you if you
[26:59] - go with the with the goal of, I'm
[27:01] - gonna ask one insightful question, not a question
[27:03] - designed to make you look good. Not that.
[27:05] - I'm not saying that. Because people spend a
[27:07] - lot of time trying to look good to
[27:08] - their peers and not really moving forward.
[27:10] - But what one insightful question and often the
[27:13] - why questions are really useful and especially coming
[27:16] - from someone who's a beginner. Like, when a
[27:17] - beginner says, well, why
[27:19] - why is this done like this? Not in
[27:21] - a confrontational, I think you're doing it wrong
[27:22] - way, but in a please educate me way.
[27:24] - When you say why is this done like
[27:26] - it is, you can actually add value to
[27:28] - the design conversation because there are probably other
[27:30] - people who don't understand what the the the
[27:33] - the answer to the question you're asking also,
[27:35] - but they're afraid to ask it or they
[27:36] - just are too busy to ask it or
[27:38] - whatever.
[27:38] - And if you are the one who's like,
[27:40] - but but why is this here? You know,
[27:42] - what what's this component do?
[27:44] - Why this or why that? And and and
[27:46] - do that with a light touch just once
[27:47] - or twice a meeting. I think you
[27:50] - you people understand that you're curious, and that's
[27:52] - an important thing. But also you can start
[27:54] - to absorb. And then when you wanna follow-up
[27:57] - with more questions, you you have
[28:00] - with the people that are in the meeting,
[28:01] - you can pick one and go engage with
[28:03] - them one on one and say, hey. Can
[28:04] - you explain? You you seem to know about
[28:06] - this design. Can you tell me about this?
[28:08] - I'd like to learn more about it. Can
[28:10] - you tell me? And there are gonna be
[28:11] - some engineers who are like, no. Go away.
[28:13] - And they're all porky piney and don't wanna
[28:15] - talk to anybody. But I my experience is
[28:17] - that's not the majority of network engineers at
[28:20] - least. There are definitely some crusty people who
[28:21] - don't wanna talk to you, but there are
[28:23] - gonna be there are gonna be people who
[28:24] - are like, yeah. I'll I'll tell you about
[28:26] - it. And I I don't know. I think
[28:28] - being curious,
[28:29] - to a limited scope in those meetings can
[28:31] - be useful.
[28:33] - Yeah. That's one thing. Like, I I definitely
[28:36] - talk to, like, our architects,
[28:39] - and, like, I've had conversations with them
[28:41] - and and asked them questions before. And some
[28:43] - of them, I've looked I'm not afraid to
[28:45] - look stupid. I don't care. Like,
[28:49] - it's better for me in the long run.
[28:51] - So if I look stupid, whatever.
[28:56] - But it's also, like, one of those things
[28:57] - where, like, we've talked outside of, like, meetings,
[29:00] - outside of, like, where there's a lot of
[29:02] - people on those calls or where there's people
[29:05] - like, where they're trying to actually
[29:08] - figure out a, like, business decision.
[29:11] - So it was like, how
[29:13] - so I'm glad, like, you said that because
[29:16] - now it's like, okay. Well, if I do
[29:17] - join one of those meetings or if I
[29:19] - do ask to be on it, it's like,
[29:22] - you know, figure out a question, figure out
[29:23] - something to ask to actually
[29:25] - help
[29:27] - and bring
[29:28] - light to something
[29:29] - in that meeting, which,
[29:32] - which is good because there's definitely times where
[29:35] - they've explained something,
[29:37] - and I'll
[29:39] - ask, well, like,
[29:40] - it seems like we could just
[29:42] - do this to connect it to this other
[29:45] - thing and not have to use this, like,
[29:46] - middleman piece
[29:48] - and then come to find out, like, no.
[29:50] - We have to have that for
[29:51] - x y z, whatever.
[29:53] - But
[29:55] - In in those cases unless you ask. Yeah.
[29:58] - Yeah. Totally. One of the things you can
[29:59] - do, one of the ways you can catch
[30:00] - that question that makes it more palatable when
[30:03] - you're like, well, why don't we just do
[30:04] - it this way? You can say, in my
[30:06] - mind, I think it makes sense to do
[30:08] - it this way. What am I missing?
[30:10] - When you ask that question, what am I
[30:11] - missing? That allows people to kind of fill
[30:13] - in and explain themselves, and here's why this
[30:15] - was decided or whatever. And it makes you
[30:17] - it makes you a lot more approachable to
[30:19] - everybody else. And every every one of us,
[30:22] - me and Russ and everybody are missing something
[30:23] - in our understanding.
[30:25] - Like so anybody at any seniority can ask
[30:27] - what am I missing and have a good
[30:29] - result.
[30:30] - And and by the way, this is a
[30:31] - good skill for even when you become more
[30:34] - experienced,
[30:35] - when even when you get, you know, further
[30:37] - along,
[30:38] - is that
[30:39] - you never
[30:40] - ever
[30:41] - want
[30:42] - to walk into a room of any kind
[30:45] - and give people the solution
[30:48] - as if you know what you're talking about
[30:50] - or as if they should listen to you
[30:52] - for some reason.
[30:54] - I don't care who you are. Yep. The
[30:56] - right way to approach any room
[30:59] - is to get work things around,
[31:02] - which is a skill on its own,
[31:04] - to making it where the people sitting in
[31:06] - the room think that what you're suggesting
[31:09] - is their idea.
[31:11] - That that's almost
[31:13] - always
[31:14] - the right way to get anything done.
[31:18] - Yep. This is true in sales. This is
[31:20] - true in design.
[31:22] - This is this is always true.
[31:25] - There are so many times I see people
[31:26] - walk into a room, and they're like, blah
[31:29] - blah blah. We should do it this way
[31:31] - because
[31:32] - and you're like, okay. Fine. And then everybody
[31:34] - just walks out of the room.
[31:36] - And there's, like, there's nothing. Right?
[31:38] - Whereas if you walk in and you say,
[31:41] - well,
[31:42] - let me ask some questions about why you're
[31:44] - doing this this way.
[31:46] - What is your actual goal? What are you
[31:48] - trying to accomplish?
[31:50] - What restrictions do you see in your way
[31:53] - that are driving you to that particular solution?
[31:57] - Then you get other people involved,
[31:59] - and
[32:00] - you can start
[32:02] - in the way that you ask the questions,
[32:05] - moving the conversation.
[32:07] - And it may not end up where you
[32:08] - think the right solution is. That's okay. That's
[32:10] - not that's not really the point.
[32:12] - The point is to get the conversation going,
[32:16] - to come up with a solution that will
[32:17] - actually work.
[32:19] - And whether
[32:20] - your what you had in the back of
[32:22] - your mind when you walk in the room
[32:24] - ends up being 50% of the solution or
[32:26] - 25%
[32:27] - or 90%
[32:29] - is neither here nor there.
[32:31] - What really matters is you walk out with
[32:33] - a real solution.
[32:36] - I think
[32:37] - I I have I have been in many,
[32:39] - many meetings where
[32:40] - the there's a labored conversation, and then somebody
[32:43] - asked the question,
[32:44] - what's the problem we're trying to solve here?
[32:47] - And more than half of the meetings where
[32:48] - this question has been asked, it's obvious that
[32:50] - not everybody in that room is working on
[32:52] - the same problem.
[32:53] - And
[32:54] - like that, you know, you can't just like
[32:56] - blindly, oh, what's the problem we're trying to
[32:57] - solve without having any context? That's pretty annoying.
[32:59] - But, like, some form of that, like, what
[33:01] - are we actually trying to solve?
[33:04] - I think that it can be really level
[33:06] - setting, and and it's something that you can
[33:08] - learn a ton because then you just ask
[33:09] - that, and then other people that wanna spout
[33:11] - off all the things that they know, you
[33:12] - just listen and absorb, and and you can
[33:14] - learn a ton. Yep.
[33:16] - And there's many ways of asking. What are
[33:18] - we trying to optimize for?
[33:20] - Like, what what what is it we're trying
[33:22] - to get done here?
[33:25] - You know, what are the what trade offs
[33:27] - have we considered?
[33:29] - Right? Like, what what
[33:31] - we're we're looking at this path.
[33:33] - What have don't even like spot you may
[33:35] - know what some of them are. Fine.
[33:37] - But, like, just asking,
[33:40] - what have we considered? Have we considered
[33:44] - anything else?
[33:46] - That those are very, very powerful questions.
[33:49] - And
[33:50] - almost always welcome,
[33:53] - almost,
[33:54] - and
[33:55] - almost always
[33:57] - effective at
[33:59] - helping people understand
[34:01] - and becoming a part of the conversation yourself.
[34:04] - So
[34:05] - so
[34:09] - what else do you got, Mike?
[34:12] - So
[34:13] - for
[34:14] - I guess, like, talking on that a bit,
[34:18] - when
[34:19] - when you are, like, in those
[34:24] - in those meetings where
[34:26] - you're like,
[34:27] - hey. Everybody
[34:29] - everybody's talking. You have
[34:33] - you have, like
[34:37] - what am I thinking? I just had a
[34:39] - question, and then I lost it for a
[34:41] - second.
[34:42] - But, like, you you have something to say
[34:44] - and
[34:47] - but at the same time, it's one of
[34:48] - those things where, like, you're the new guy.
[34:50] - You don't know, like,
[34:53] - you don't know if they've already, like, kinda
[34:55] - passed that point or, like, if they've already
[34:58] - considered that and we're done.
[35:00] - Like,
[35:01] - how do you
[35:03] - how do you go about, like,
[35:07] - I guess,
[35:08] - trying to figure things out when, like, you
[35:11] - don't fully
[35:13] - know what's going
[35:15] - on? Because you I think we Like yeah.
[35:18] - Sorry. No. I I when you're when you're
[35:20] - just getting started, when you're junior,
[35:23] - you're I think your best bet is to
[35:26] - figure out what the direction of the project
[35:27] - is and figure out how you can do
[35:29] - something useful in that project rather than trying
[35:32] - to guide the project.
[35:34] - And to me, that is a that's a
[35:36] - big investment in yourself because you becoming useful
[35:38] - on that project will translate into other things,
[35:40] - many other things in your career. And and
[35:42] - I think, like, you wanna be seen as
[35:43] - the person who's ready to roll up their
[35:45] - sleeves and go to work. You don't wanna
[35:46] - be seen as the person who's like, I
[35:48] - know a better way.
[35:49] - You know, especially beginning of your career, you
[35:51] - want you want people to think, oh, this
[35:53] - you know, Michael, if he's involved, if he
[35:55] - comes to this meeting, he's gonna end up
[35:56] - doing some of the work and it's gonna
[35:57] - be good. Like but the only way you
[35:59] - gain that reputation is by saying, alright. Put
[36:01] - me to work. How can I how can
[36:02] - I make this thing happen? And you will
[36:04] - learn so much in the beginning just by
[36:06] - just by being willing to, you know, to,
[36:09] - to work and and and get things going.
[36:11] - And then and then you'll have some basis
[36:13] - to say, hey. The next time this thing
[36:15] - comes around, I think we should do this
[36:17] - instead.
[36:18] - You know, not to say you shouldn't ask
[36:19] - those questions, but I think there's a lot
[36:21] - of value in saying, I just I just
[36:23] - wanna be the guy that everybody knows can
[36:24] - get down and get it done.
[36:27] - So yeah. And I would say too that
[36:30] - if you encounter something and by the way,
[36:32] - this just just doesn't some of these things
[36:34] - you're asking aren't really just for junior people.
[36:37] - This is like these are things. Right?
[36:40] - That if you if you're in a meeting
[36:42] - and someone says x y z
[36:45] - and you're like, oh, no. No. No. No.
[36:47] - No. Or why would you ever do that
[36:49] - or whatever.
[36:52] - If the conversation moves past the point where
[36:54] - you feel like you can ask it or
[36:57] - even in the moment when you think you
[36:58] - can,
[36:59] - be very cautious about offending people.
[37:02] - Take a note to yourself
[37:04] - to go find that person later and ask.
[37:08] - Don't, like, send them an email or something.
[37:11] - Don't don't do it in front of other
[37:14] - people if you can at all avoid it.
[37:17] - I think that I think that's really important.
[37:20] - Yeah.
[37:22] - So so, by the way, I discovered this
[37:24] - for ITF drafts. This is a very big
[37:25] - lesson in ITF,
[37:27] - is that people will come on the mailing
[37:29] - list after somebody's published your draft and go,
[37:31] - oh, blah blah blah. This is a mistake
[37:33] - here or whatever. No.
[37:36] - Email the author
[37:37] - privately
[37:38] - off list.
[37:40] - Have a discussion.
[37:42] - Right?
[37:43] - You're
[37:44] - 90%
[37:45] - more likely to get somebody
[37:47] - to
[37:49] - take notice
[37:51] - if you do that. And sometimes they'll ignore
[37:53] - you. You know what? Oh, well,
[37:55] - it's not on
[37:57] - you.
[37:58] - Yeah. People, if you call people out in
[38:00] - public, you'll get one of a few possible
[38:02] - reactions.
[38:03] - Either
[38:04] - they they see it as confrontation and they'll
[38:06] - see that they need to defend their position
[38:08] - or they will they will just ignore you.
[38:11] - And and I but I don't need I
[38:13] - don't even need to respond. I don't know.
[38:14] - There there are very few upsides to calling
[38:16] - people out in public. And,
[38:18] - yeah, I think it's
[38:20] - I I agree it's worth saying.
[38:22] - Yeah. No. That makes sense. Because, like, I
[38:24] - there there's definitely been times where
[38:27] - I just wanna know, like, what why we're
[38:29] - doing some certain way or, like, if we
[38:32] - like, if you typically have, like,
[38:34] - a way that you always do stuff and
[38:37] - then you get a new project, and we're
[38:39] - doing it completely different than how we've done
[38:41] - everything else. It's like, well, why?
[38:44] - But then you get into the meetings, and
[38:46] - I've just
[38:48] - I'm like, well, I wanna ask
[38:51] - in this meeting why are we doing it
[38:54] - differently, but
[38:56] - there's, like, 12 people
[38:58] - on that call, and that makes sense. Like,
[38:59] - ask
[39:01] - ask the people that are actually in charge
[39:02] - of like, or that are dealing with it
[39:04] - after the fact, not
[39:06] - not in the meeting, not in the middle
[39:08] - of everything where everyone is. That
[39:11] - it's definitely helpful because
[39:13] - I
[39:14] - yeah. Because you never wanna be the person
[39:16] - that's just, like
[39:17] - I guess that comes off as
[39:19] - being rude or
[39:21] - Yeah. Exactly. Making a fool of someone.
[39:24] - Yeah. Plus, if it's a big mistake and
[39:26] - it's really going to burn and become a
[39:28] - dumpster fire,
[39:29] - that's a great source of learning as well.
[39:31] - And you weren't responsible for it. You were
[39:33] - a junior person just trying to play ball
[39:34] - and trying to help people out. And if
[39:36] - this thing explodes, then you can learn from
[39:38] - it with that no cost to yourself. So
[39:40] - it's not I think I think we get
[39:42] - just it's human nature to be like, oh,
[39:44] - wait. I think I know a better way.
[39:45] - Therefore, I should be talking about it. I
[39:47] - should be driving some kind of change. And,
[39:49] - yes, if you see something that needs to
[39:51] - change, you should do that. But, also, there
[39:53] - is a time to to chill out, lay
[39:55] - back, watch what's going on, and learn from
[39:57] - it.
[39:58] - You you gotta pick the right time to
[40:00] - try to interject yourself.
[40:04] - Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
[40:05] - Yep.
[40:06] - Yeah.
[40:07] - Thinking
[40:08] - on that, like,
[40:10] - like, say you do have, like, recommendations for
[40:12] - things that are going on or, like, just
[40:15] - over time, like, you learn
[40:17] - different stuff and you learn, like, how
[40:19] - how, like, the business typically operates. And it's
[40:21] - like, well, this could actually be improved upon.
[40:24] - Or,
[40:25] - how
[40:28] - how do you go
[40:29] - about doing that? Because, like,
[40:31] - as
[40:32] - like, in my position, I'm a I'm an
[40:34] - individual contributor. So, like,
[40:37] - I don't have, like
[40:38] - I don't make money decisions. I don't make
[40:41] - purchasing decisions. I don't make I don't do
[40:43] - any of that part.
[40:44] - So how do you go about, like,
[40:47] - I guess,
[40:48] - really starting that
[40:49] - topic?
[40:51] - Yeah. So I'll go back to what I
[40:52] - said before,
[40:53] - which is that you try to approach everything
[40:56] - in a way that you make it somebody
[40:57] - else's idea. You get somebody who can make
[41:00] - the decision
[41:01] - to
[41:02] - to
[41:03] - invest, put skin in the game
[41:05] - for what you think is the right thing.
[41:08] - And by the way, this is, again, not
[41:10] - a junior senior thing. This is
[41:12] - the way
[41:13] - it works in technology land.
[41:16] - 99%
[41:17] - of the engineers I know
[41:19] - make no money decisions.
[41:22] - They make recommendations
[41:23] - to managers and purchasing people who make the
[41:26] - money decisions.
[41:27] - They don't they don't actually make the money
[41:29] - decisions.
[41:30] - And so
[41:31] - sometimes people are in a position of trust
[41:34] - where they can say,
[41:36] - no. You're gonna buy brand x instead of
[41:38] - band brand y. That's really unusual,
[41:41] - honestly,
[41:42] - in in the technology field.
[41:45] - It happens, but it's very unusual.
[41:48] - So I always I think, again, goes back
[41:50] - to the skill set of
[41:52] - how do I approach people
[41:54] - in a way
[41:55] - that says,
[41:57] - I think,
[41:59] - you know, have you considered this? I think
[42:01] - maybe that
[42:03] - might be something that we should think about.
[42:07] - And sometimes it is effective to say, I
[42:10] - think that there is a problem we haven't
[42:12] - really thought about yet in this solution set.
[42:16] - I I I wouldn't necessarily always lead with
[42:18] - that. A lot some people do,
[42:20] - but
[42:21] - I do.
[42:23] - That is that's just a part of, again,
[42:25] - part of being in engineering
[42:27] - at all.
[42:29] - I think there's also you need to think
[42:31] - of it in terms of what bucket does
[42:33] - this change you're proposing fit into.
[42:36] - Generally, things that require a lot of capital
[42:39] - investment, capital meaning buying stuff, buying new products,
[42:41] - buying switches, buying,
[42:44] - capital expenditures.
[42:45] - It's it's a it's different than, like, operational
[42:48] - type things. So if you're for example, you've
[42:50] - got a you feel like, hey. We should
[42:52] - redesign the network. We should we should,
[42:54] - add these these routers here and there. So
[42:56] - there's a cost there. Someone someone who makes
[42:59] - a a money decision is gonna have to
[43:01] - approve this. And more importantly, they're gonna have
[43:03] - to go to their boss and say and
[43:05] - explain all the reasons why we need to
[43:07] - increase our budget and we need to spend
[43:08] - more money on hardware. So sometimes that I
[43:10] - mean and when you do get in those
[43:12] - conversations, it can be really fun. I mean,
[43:13] - designing networks is really fun,
[43:15] - and that can be really cool, but you've
[43:17] - you've it's it's a different path than, like,
[43:20] - an operational type thing. Like, we should automate
[43:22] - this or that some other way, or we
[43:23] - should, you know, we should change our practice
[43:25] - in this area
[43:26] - and, you know, and do the x, y,
[43:28] - and z. It's just they're just different things
[43:30] - that you you approach them differently.
[43:33] - Generally, operational type things, you can do a
[43:35] - grassroots type of approach to it.
[43:38] - You can go talk to your peers and
[43:39] - be like, hey, guys. Let's do it this
[43:40] - way. I think it'd be cool to do
[43:41] - it this way. And you get everybody working
[43:43] - on it. And most managers, like, whatever. Get
[43:45] - whatever you wanna do, like, just don't make
[43:47] - it worse and don't make your life worse.
[43:48] - Like Break it. Yeah.
[43:50] - Yeah. Yeah. So there's there's there's at least
[43:52] - two buckets of types of changes you would
[43:54] - champion.
[43:55] - They're both they're both fun to work on,
[43:57] - but, they just require different types of commitment.
[44:00] - Yeah. Exactly.
[44:02] - Yep.
[44:03] - Okay. So so yeah. Pretty much,
[44:06] - like,
[44:07] - I guess, with what you were saying, I'm
[44:09] - just
[44:10] - understand, like, what
[44:13] - if you are trying to change something or
[44:15] - wanna
[44:16] - do something like that, understand,
[44:18] - like, what it would actually affect. So, like,
[44:20] - is it hardware? Is it
[44:23] - just how we do things? Like, is it
[44:25] - a script that runs? Is it like, what
[44:28] - what is actually changing? So then you know,
[44:30] - like, where it
[44:32] - what pieces of the business it affects.
[44:34] - Right. Right. And, generally, you're gonna have to
[44:37] - prove to somebody with capital expenditures. You're gonna
[44:39] - have to prove how does this save us
[44:41] - money or how does this increase revenue.
[44:43] - If you if you can't answer those questions
[44:45] - or give clear lines to answers to those
[44:47] - questions, generally, the answer is gonna be no.
[44:50] - But but if you can, then that's actually
[44:52] - a huge opportunity because you can show people
[44:54] - that you're thinking about the the, you know,
[44:56] - the business benefits of what you're doing and,
[44:59] - you know, so it can be it can
[45:01] - be good.
[45:02] - Yeah.
[45:05] - No.
[45:07] - Do we do we have time for one
[45:08] - more? Yeah. Let's do let's do let's do
[45:11] - one more. Yeah. I have a four I
[45:12] - have I have a meeting in ten minutes,
[45:14] - but we can do one more.
[45:16] - Okay. It's just about the main topic that
[45:19] - everyone enjoys.
[45:22] - So, like, I don't touch AI a whole
[45:24] - lot, I'll be honest.
[45:27] - But, like, is there
[45:29] - something I should be using it for that
[45:31] - I don't use it for? Because I really
[45:33] - don't mess with it at all.
[45:36] - Oh my goodness. It's such a double edged
[45:38] - sword, isn't it? So that's kind of a
[45:40] - so I personally try to limit my AI
[45:43] - use
[45:44] - to a research tool,
[45:46] - not to a development tool or not to
[45:49] - a it's gonna write something for me tool,
[45:51] - but just to do research.
[45:53] - And even so,
[45:55] - I tend to be very narrow about what
[45:57] - I use it for. I I kinda use
[45:59] - it as a as a super search engine
[46:02] - kind of a thing.
[46:03] - And I also have
[46:06] - the discipline to if it answers a question,
[46:09] - some AI systems will give you where it
[46:12] - got the answer from.
[46:14] - So I'll actually, again, use it as a
[46:16] - super search engine.
[46:17] - I'll go click on those links
[46:19] - and figure out
[46:20] - what it what why it's saying
[46:23] - that or whether it is summarized correctly and
[46:26] - stuff. I use to use it for code
[46:27] - review just to
[46:29] - just because I don't always wanna spend the
[46:31] - time looking things up. Like, okay. What's the
[46:34] - call chain for this? Okay. Where is that
[46:36] - memory freed?
[46:37] - Where is that memory allocated?
[46:39] - Under what circumstances
[46:40] - could this be null or whatever?
[46:43] - Right? That's
[46:44] - it's easier for me to see the code
[46:46] - or to
[46:47] - be quick quicker about code reviews if I
[46:50] - ask those kinds of questions. I I would
[46:53] - never use AI to say write a book
[46:56] - or write a piece of software that does
[46:58] - or something like that. That's that's not that's
[47:00] - completely outside of
[47:02] - my realm
[47:03] - of thinking
[47:05] - on it.
[47:06] - Yeah. I think
[47:07] - I I think we have to be very
[47:09] - disciplined.
[47:11] - If we don't wanna experience the cognitive decline
[47:13] - that is that is going to happen with
[47:15] - AI, we have to be very disciplined in
[47:17] - how we use the tools. Like, for myself,
[47:18] - some of the rules I follow myself,
[47:20] - I will ask it something, ask it to
[47:22] - explain something to me, give me sources like
[47:24] - Russ was saying. But then the next step
[47:26] - is to go read those sources. Right. And
[47:29] - you you cannot
[47:31] - skip that step, and it is so tempting.
[47:33] - It's like I can get on to the
[47:34] - next thing. I can just ask it for
[47:35] - the answer, and everybody's using AI, so no
[47:37] - one's gonna get get mad at me. And
[47:39] - when I tell tell them I used I
[47:40] - used AI, most companies are now in the
[47:42] - process of shoving this down their employees' throats.
[47:44] - Like,
[47:46] - but you just if if you want your
[47:48] - ability to think and reason to remain,
[47:50] - you you have to hold yourself to a
[47:52] - certain type of standard. And I think that
[47:54] - involves look up the source material, understand from
[47:56] - the source material.
[47:57] - And
[47:58] - in that regard, it still is a huge
[47:59] - accelerant because it does the searching for you.
[48:01] - It it looks through and finds the place
[48:03] - in the text where you need to, you
[48:05] - know and and the good ones will point
[48:06] - that out.
[48:07] - I wouldn't use any AI system that does
[48:10] - not easily document sources for you because it's
[48:12] - gonna make it if if it's gotta be
[48:14] - a low friction thing for you to go
[48:16] - find the original sources.
[48:18] - And but but I think but I think
[48:20] - it and and it certainly can't do thinking
[48:22] - for you. This is what concerns me the
[48:24] - most when people are like, well, write me
[48:26] - a presentation that has these objectives, and then
[48:28] - and then they go do something else, and
[48:30] - it comes back with tech. It just
[48:32] - no. No. You're a human. Like,
[48:34] - you you should not outsource your reasoning.
[48:37] - I think that will come back to us
[48:38] - in very,
[48:40] - very,
[48:40] - important ways if we're not careful. So I
[48:42] - don't know. That's my those are my thoughts
[48:44] - on
[48:45] - it. Yeah. Definitely, like,
[48:48] - for for me, like, I've I've done a
[48:51] - little bit with it. Like, I
[48:53] - asked it to help me
[48:55] - create a study plan for, like, a cert
[48:57] - before, and, like, it
[49:00] - it was, like, iffy. It kind of works,
[49:02] - and it's like
[49:04] - Yeah. It's like,
[49:05] - you start start reading down the list. I
[49:06] - was like, well, that doesn't really make sense.
[49:07] - Like, why would I do both of these?
[49:09] - Or, like Right. It was,
[49:12] - it was just weird. And then,
[49:16] - I guess it's just, like, I
[49:19] - I see a lot of people, like, at
[49:21] - work. Like, not not on my team specifically,
[49:24] - but,
[49:25] - I see a lot of people using AI
[49:27] - for stuff. And then
[49:29] - sometimes you ask them, like,
[49:32] - a question that they should be able to
[49:33] - answer, and then they just have no clue
[49:35] - what to do. And then
[49:38] - five minutes later, you get a AI kind
[49:40] - of response
[49:41] - back from them. That's like, why it was
[49:43] - Yeah.
[49:44] - And I
[49:47] - I don't wanna
[49:48] - sacrifice, like, my learning
[49:50] - for
[49:51] - to make things faster, I guess.
[49:54] - Even if it, like, even if it does
[49:56] - work, I wanted to, like, understand, like, what's
[49:57] - happening, what's it doing
[49:59] - instead of letting it go.
[50:03] - Yep.
[50:04] - I completely agree with that. That's a matter
[50:06] - of discipline,
[50:07] - and I don't really know how to do
[50:09] - it other than just self discipline in today's
[50:12] - world. Yeah.
[50:13] - Right?
[50:15] - So that's that's just the thing. Right?
[50:17] - Like, I don't object to people using AI
[50:20] - to create images for their presentations
[50:23] - rather than searching for them. Okay. Fine. Whatever.
[50:26] - You're not a graphic designer. You're a network
[50:28] - engineer.
[50:30] - I don't really care where you get your
[50:31] - images from. I it's whatever,
[50:34] - unless it's a network diagram, just like splash
[50:36] - images or whatever. Right?
[50:38] - Draw me a picture of a person using
[50:40] - your computer. Alright. Great. Whatever.
[50:43] - But,
[50:45] - yeah, I think there's discipline
[50:47] - required
[50:47] - not not to allow it to
[50:50] - consume your skill set.
[50:53] - I think that's a that's a very important
[50:55] - thing. And your intellectual
[50:57] - yeah. Your intellectual virtue is where I would
[51:00] - really put that.
[51:02] - I was gonna say, I think that's one
[51:03] - of the big things that I learned from
[51:06] - this is just, like,
[51:08] - a a lot of what's happening, a lot
[51:10] - of, like,
[51:11] - career growth, a lot of everything is just
[51:14] - being disciplined in
[51:16] - very
[51:17] - specific areas
[51:19] - to,
[51:20] - I guess, accomplish whatever, like, goal you have.
[51:24] - Yeah.
[51:24] - Yep. Yep.
[51:27] - Alright. Well, cool. Well, thanks for the questions,
[51:29] - Mike. Maybe we'll bring you back on some
[51:31] - time if you feel like it to ask
[51:32] - more or if you run into things you'd
[51:34] - like to talk about. All good. It's all
[51:36] - good.
[51:38] - So if people do you blog or anything,
[51:40] - Mike? I'm assuming the answer is no, but
[51:42] - I just thought I would
[51:44] - ask. So currently,
[51:45] - no.
[51:46] - I've thought about it. I've wanted
[51:49] - to, but,
[51:51] - part of me has been like, how do
[51:52] - I
[51:54] - do something that I don't see a million
[51:56] - other people doing? So,
[51:58] - trying to figure that out, but eventually, maybe.
[52:01] - Yeah. And, actually, that's a good conversation to
[52:04] - have at some point is does it matter
[52:07] - if a million other people are doing it?
[52:09] - I'm not really sure it does, but okay.
[52:12] - And, Tom, say your word.
[52:16] - LinkedIn.
[52:18] - So, Audrey how you can find me. Yeah.
[52:20] - I just need to pause. Yeah. Just Yeah.
[52:23] - Audrey has the has the pause timer in
[52:25] - the background.
[52:28] - Everyone's gonna think I'm a puppet of Audrey,
[52:30] - like strings behind my back connected.
[52:33] - I mean, you're not. I didn't use it
[52:35] - there. Nice. Nice.
[52:39] - Alright.
[52:41] - Alright. Thanks for coming on, Mike, and thanks
[52:43] - for everybody who's listening. I'm Russ White. You
[52:44] - can find me here at rule eleven dot
[52:46] - tech at the hedge. You can find me
[52:47] - on LinkedIn. You can find me occasionally on
[52:49] - x, whatever.
[52:52] - And we know we live in an attention
[52:53] - driven economy. We thank you for listening all
[52:56] - the way to the bitter end of this
[52:57] - episode of The Hedge, and we will catch
[53:00] - you next time.

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