# JFK (1991) | Ep. 56 - Part 1

An episode of [All The Right Movies](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1471502633), 28 Mar 2025, 1 h 18 min.

Audio: https://traffic.megaphone.fm/APO3629644408.mp3

Back, and to the left. Luke, Westy, and Matt begin the story of Oliver Stone's sprawling, controversial, three-hour interrogation of the Kennedy assassination. In Part 1 we cover the film's opening, director Oliver Stone, the cast, and the second act — including Kevin Costner as Jim Garrison, the enormous ensemble, and the firestorm the film provoked before it had even been released. Part 2, covering the crew, the finale, reception, and the film's legacy, is available now. Connect with ATRM: To support what we do, access our archive and listen to exclusive episodes, become an ATRM patron: Listen on Patreon Listen on Apple Podcasts Listen on Spotify Twitter/X: @ATRightMovies YouTube: Subscribe to our channel Instagram: @allthe_rightmovies Threads: @allthe_rightmovies Facebook: Join our movie group Bluesky: @alltherightmovies.com TikTok: @alltherightmovies Website: alltherightmovies.com

## Transcript

[0:04] All the old movies. You know, I sometimes think
[0:06] things have gone downhill since John Kennedy died, Senator.
[0:10] Well, don't get me started on that.
[0:12] Those Warren commissioned fellas were picking that shit out of
[0:15] pepper. Nobody's going to tell me that
[0:18] kid did the shooting job he did from that damn bookstore.
[0:21] I thought the FBI testified the rifle to see if it could be
[0:23] done. Sure, 3 experts and not one of
[0:26] them could do it. They're telling us that Oswald
[0:29] got off three shots with world class precision from a manual
[0:33] bolt Axon rifle in less than 6 seconds.
[0:36] And according to his Marine buddies, he's got Maggie's
[0:39] drawers. You know what that mean?
[0:41] Wasn't any good average man be lucky to get two shots off and
[0:45] I'll tell you the point shot would always be the best here.
[0:48] The third shots, perfect. Then they got that crazy bullet
[0:52] zigzagging all over the place. So he hits.
[0:54] Kennedy at Connelly. Seven times.
[0:57] One pristine bullet that dog don't hunt.
[1:01] Unsatisfied with the official explanation given about the
[1:04] assassination of John F Kennedy, New Orleans DEA Jim Garrison and
[1:07] his team get sucked into a well of circumstantial evidence,
[1:10] leading him to point the finger at everyone from the CIA to the
[1:13] mob. Oliver Stone's kaleidoscopic
[1:15] conspiracy thriller was considered the most dangerous
[1:18] movie in America and suffered a huge backlash in the early 90s.
[1:22] Featuring a dizzy an array of incredible acting talent, it is
[1:24] now considered a high watermark in the great director's career.
[1:28] My name is Luke and a couple of patsies with me are Wesley.
[1:31] You're a mouse fighting the gorilla.
[1:33] Kennedy's as dead as that crab meat.
[1:34] The government's still breathing.
[1:35] You want to line up with a dead man?
[1:37] And Matt, I'm sorry, buddy, I thought I was shooting at that
[1:40] son of a bitch Kennedy. All the right movies are through
[1:43] the looking glass and headed to one of the most important
[1:45] moments of the 20th century. Hi everyone, welcome to All the
[2:06] Right Movies, a mystery wrapped in a Riddle inside an enigma of
[2:10] a podcast on classic and hit films.
[2:11] True enough. That's us.
[2:13] We're in over our heads this week as we tumble into a world
[2:16] of conspiracy theories all centred around that dark day in
[2:19] Dallas N63. It is, of course, Oliver Stone's
[2:23] gargantuan JFK. It is.
[2:25] It is a long time coming. Yeah.
[2:30] A long time to watch it. Yes.
[2:35] Just before we get into the mystery, we're here to tell you
[2:37] about hundreds of podcasts that we've created over the years,
[2:40] and you can listen to every single one by becoming an ATRM
[2:43] patron. You certainly can.
[2:45] Our podcast archive is full to the brim with big laughs and
[2:48] opinions on some of the greatest movies ever made, and there's
[2:50] even a few famous Westie theories thrown in for good
[2:53] measure. Oh.
[2:54] Absolutely. Oh yeah, even I've forgotten
[2:56] about them. So check them out and let us
[2:57] know what they were. The listeners happened Westie.
[3:01] You can listen to our complete classic podcast archive by
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[3:18] there. Loads of great podcasts there.
[3:21] Definitely. And if that doesn't get you
[3:22] excited, you as crazy as your Mama.
[3:26] Here it is. Now we've started.
[3:28] Here we go. But if it does, then sign up at
[3:31] Apple Podcast, Spotify, and patreon.com/all the Right
[3:34] Movies. Yes, please do guys have a look,
[3:36] see what you think? Yes.
[3:37] Please. But back to the big enchilada,
[3:40] JFK. Matthew been gagging to cover
[3:43] this film for some time. Yes, a halfway is that. 25
[3:46] years, I think 5. Years.
[3:48] That sounds about right. Yeah.
[3:50] I mean, first of all, kudos to you, Luke.
[3:52] I'm sure Westie agrees, but I'm always in awe of the work that
[3:55] you and John put into the scripts for this.
[3:57] And I'm sure there was a lot to go through for this one.
[4:01] So kudos to you. I appreciate apologies.
[4:04] So yes, thanks that you have me. That's easy for us to not my
[4:08] lead, but a lot easier than it should be.
[4:10] Yeah. Thanks for that.
[4:11] Yeah. What a spider's web this was.
[4:14] It takes three to tango, though. Yeah, but no, you're absolutely
[4:17] right. This one for me is one.
[4:19] Since I started doing this, this has probably been in like the
[4:22] top five films I've wanted to cover because this really is
[4:25] something else. And when I first watched it, I
[4:28] felt like I had to pick myself up off the floor afterwards.
[4:31] It was such an experience. I wanted and I wanted to dive in
[4:34] straight again to watch it all over again.
[4:36] And I think it has to be said, get it out wherewith It doesn't
[4:39] matter if you don't believe anything that Stone puts forward
[4:42] in this film. In fact, I'd recommend that you
[4:44] don't believe everything here. Big disclaimer, lovely.
[4:47] Yeah, big disclaimer. I mean, let's face it, at least
[4:49] about 70% of this is misrepresented, to put it
[4:52] lightly. But The thing is, it doesn't
[4:55] matter because this film is about obsession.
[4:58] It's about Stones obsession with this.
[5:00] It's about Garrison's obsession with this, and you end up
[5:03] obsessed with it by the end. By the end, it's like you're
[5:05] tearing your hair out going why can't the sea?
[5:07] Why can't the sea? This is such bullshit.
[5:09] It's only something result and even if you've got a problem
[5:13] with the history, which is totally fair enough.
[5:14] Problem with the history. William Wallace could turn up at
[5:17] the end that it would make fucking sense.
[5:20] Historical accuracy all the way. It probably is the only one that
[5:23] beats Braveheart for that isn't. It.
[5:24] Yeah, definitely. But The thing is, you've just
[5:27] got to admire the she cinematic craft of this film.
[5:30] Like how this film exists in the form that it does, I have no
[5:33] idea, but I'm just so glad that it does.
[5:35] Yeah, absolutely. Westie about your thoughts.
[5:39] I'll just write on Matt's coattails there, to be perfectly
[5:41] fair. I mean, he said everything that
[5:42] we need to see in the introduction.
[5:44] Do it. I mean, it's a hell of an
[5:45] achievement. It's an incredible film.
[5:47] There's so much in here. I know it's 3 1/2 hours, but the
[5:49] still feels like it's overflown even in that runtime.
[5:52] It just zips by and it's just this really highly choreographed
[5:57] Rubik's Cube of American history is kind of the only way I can
[6:00] think about it. But it's just put all put into
[6:02] place. And then it shows you the
[6:03] Rubik's Cube finished at the end, but then you still doubt it
[6:06] and it just mixes itself up again and then just goes
[6:08] completely awry enough to stop and building it.
[6:10] It's not one that I've seen a lot, but it's one I really,
[6:12] really appreciate. Probably more from the technical
[6:15] side, as we've said, because you kind of watch this and walk away
[6:17] known absolutely every fact. I mean, I think this is more
[6:20] about, you know, what was said on the last crew said episode.
[6:23] This is search for truth or it's a search for fact.
[6:25] And I think this is a lot of truth, but being put together
[6:28] next to facts that don't necessarily work, but a lot of
[6:30] truths that have been put together.
[6:32] So it's for you to 1 picket and I think it's very much Oliver
[6:35] Stone's film and we will say that all the way through.
[6:37] This is him, very heavy-handed, very punching me in the face for
[6:41] 3 1/2 hours, Very. Much.
[6:42] It's it's just unflinching. It's a steamroller of a film.
[6:46] It's like being in Vietnam with him.
[6:48] You can imagine what he was like.
[6:49] It's just an absolute onslaught of his beliefs, and it's slammed
[6:53] in here. And the other thing that's just
[6:54] incredible about this film is the ensemble cast.
[6:57] I mean, it's like the Longest Day.
[6:58] It's like bridge too far, and that's what we get to this film.
[7:01] It's absolutely wonderful. If you're a fan of cinema,
[7:03] you're a fan of JFK. So let's start untangling this
[7:07] ball of lies. Yeah, I mean, this pure, like
[7:13] this is movie candy for me. This a conspiracy thriller based
[7:17] on a pivotal period in American history in the mold of the
[7:19] greats like All the President's Men.
[7:22] If anyone says that sentence to me, I'm just all in leaving my
[7:25] general reservations about runtime at the door.
[7:28] The only time. I've always been a fan of Oliver
[7:33] Stone's work, and this is surely his most ambitious.
[7:37] Yeah. Tackling a highly emotive period
[7:39] using a dizzy and rear footage, including one of the most
[7:42] talented at Summer Cass ever assembled.
[7:44] Like you said, Westie. And like you said, Martin plays
[7:47] fast and loose with the facts. And you know, not much of the
[7:50] film is based in truth. It's more based on lie than
[7:53] truth. But it's one of the most
[7:55] exciting 3 hours you can spend watching any film.
[7:58] Yeah. Love It JFK was directed by
[8:01] Oliver Stone Co, written by Stone and Zachary Skylar and Co,
[8:04] produced by Stone and a Kit manhole for Regency Enterprises,
[8:08] distributed by Warner Brothers to theaters on the 20th of
[8:10] December 1991. Largely filmed on location in
[8:13] New Orleans, Dallas and Washington, DC.
[8:16] It stars Kevin Costner in the lead as Jim Garrison, and he's
[8:19] supported by the cast of all casts, including Tommy Lee
[8:22] Jones, Gary Oldman, Joe Pesci, Sissy Spacek, Lori Metcalf,
[8:26] Michael Rooker, John Candy, Walter Matthau, Jack Lemmon,
[8:29] Kevin Bacon and many, many, many more.
[8:32] Outrageous anyone who isn't in this.
[8:34] Unbelievable. Just us.
[8:40] OK, people, let's head on over to Dallas, where black is white
[8:44] and white is black. It's JFK.
[8:50] The beginning. In the beginning of JFK, we're
[8:55] introduced to our main characters and the seed is set
[8:58] for the greatest conspiracy of them all.
[9:00] But first up, we're treated to a stir and montage of factual
[9:03] events leading to the fateful events of that day in Dallas.
[9:07] And what a start it is. It's fantastic.
[9:09] So filament itself isn't. It oh, it's amazing.
[9:11] It's like a documentary. Yeah.
[9:13] I find a disconcert and I'm just going to start straight away by
[9:16] saying if you Google JFK the film, it says thriller slash
[9:19] documentary on Google. It's not a documentary.
[9:22] Definitely not a documentary. Oh, Google's wrong.
[9:28] Yeah. But this film opens like a
[9:31] documentary, the epic sweep of John Williams's military March
[9:35] that howls through the troubled recent history of America.
[9:38] Immediately given a sense of responsibility of the film and a
[9:40] sense of honour in the fallen, I think it's a really smart move
[9:44] from stone. He presents all the information
[9:46] about civil rights, the Cold War, the beer of pigs in Vietnam
[9:49] as factual through the use of archival footage.
[9:52] You know this all checks out. And to give it additional
[9:55] legitimacy, he's even drafted in Martin Sheen.
[9:59] Martin Sheen. He played Kennedy once.
[10:03] Yes. So that voice.
[10:07] Just provides such a sense of gravitas.
[10:10] This is really serious stuff and it's factual and that's an
[10:12] important footing to start on, I think, because if this is true,
[10:16] then everything else that we're going to be presented with the
[10:18] next three hours will follow suit.
[10:20] Yes, it must be. Fun to be, Maybe not.
[10:24] But this is also so on set now it's conspiracy theory in place
[10:27] fast and loose with the fact straight away with the
[10:29] introduction of the character of Rose Jeremy being thrown out of
[10:32] the car. The real Jeremy had a history of
[10:35] drug abuse and mental illness who was found passed out by the
[10:38] side of the road in Louisiana on the 20th of November 1963.
[10:42] And Jeremy made a claim of a plot to kill the president and
[10:45] later claimed she was pushed out of a car by Jack Ruby and Lee
[10:48] Harvey Oswald. However, there's no evidence
[10:50] that the two knew each other and she was found dead on a Hwy. 2
[10:53] years later, the victim of a hit and run, but conspiracy thieves
[10:56] have since clouded her death with suspicion.
[10:59] Right. We're going to hear that a lot,
[11:00] and of course we are. We're going to hear a.
[11:02] Hell of a lot of that. So it's a double setup, hitting
[11:06] us with the facts, then suck a puncher in us with this
[11:08] fabrication. A master storyteller, a master
[11:11] manipulator, depending on your point of view.
[11:13] Yeah. And he then segues into the 22nd
[11:15] of November 63, where he combines archival footage with
[11:18] his reconstruction. Black and white with colour
[11:20] images, all combined into disoriented, reflective of the
[11:23] whole case. What's real, what's fake?
[11:25] It's drama right from the word go.
[11:27] Facts are an afterthought. But as an opening to a dramatic
[11:31] film, it's pretty much unrivaled.
[11:33] Yeah, so from there we go straight to the news of the
[11:37] president's been shot. We get the introduction of
[11:39] Garrison sitting in his office, that lovely photo of his wife
[11:42] behind him, beautifully late grade.
[11:44] I love the frame. And if that is really nice and
[11:47] he's like, Oh no, it's probably the worst delivery from Cosner.
[11:52] It's like, get that out of there, let's move on.
[11:54] Let's. Take that again.
[11:55] Yeah, it's just one more time. I mean, you set that up.
[11:58] Lovely. Just one more.
[11:59] But it's it's really good. Stands up.
[12:00] Napoleon's got ATV set. I was like, how historically
[12:03] inaccurate is this? I like Napoleon didn't have ATV
[12:05] set. I'm just joking.
[12:06] That's the bar, straight to the character there.
[12:12] You've got that TV voice over, over the top of it, setting the
[12:15] tone. We know where we are.
[12:16] And then we're in that bar and there's that slow pushing.
[12:19] The camera just starts moving. I'll say this a lot, and it's
[12:21] that slow put. It might be the start.
[12:23] Vertigo, you know, and the restaurant, it's just, yeah,
[12:25] yeah, it's just right. It's Hitchcock, but it's cut
[12:27] like a music video. It's just absolutely insane.
[12:30] The back and forth. The camera is moving towards the
[12:32] television, it's moving towards Garrison.
[12:34] It's just got this incredible pace to it.
[12:36] It's incredible emotion to it. And he's like, come on, Jack,
[12:39] pull through. There's still chance.
[12:40] God damn it. It's like he's just immediately
[12:43] there. There's no like slow build up.
[12:45] It's just high watermark straight away and it just rides
[12:48] that all the way through the film and you just get where you
[12:50] are with Stone and his view of what's happened.
[12:52] Because we get the newscaster cry and we get people upset.
[12:55] We get them on the news reels and everybody's upset about the
[12:58] news. So we know where we are.
[13:00] And the great thing about this is Stone starts the conflict of
[13:03] opinion straight away because we'll find out about his death.
[13:06] We'll have somebody on this side of the bar, we'll have Garrison
[13:08] who was gutted about it, and then we'll have somebody else
[13:10] just jumping straight up and applauding the guy for shooting
[13:12] them. So we've got this conflict of
[13:14] opinion straight away where people stand on Kennedy and we
[13:17] know that it's black and white. And I think it's just a
[13:19] fantastic sequence and really beautifully done.
[13:21] Emily sits back and just says, I'm ashamed of being an American
[13:23] today. You know where you are and you
[13:25] know what's the one's trying to say.
[13:26] I think it's just an incredible, incredible start of the film and
[13:29] really, really sets the tone. And more importantly, it sets
[13:31] the pace. Technically it's really
[13:32] brilliant. Yeah, packed with information as
[13:35] well. Yeah.
[13:35] Well, I'm going to talk about the first person who gets
[13:38] questioned, David Ferrie, because yes, there's character.
[13:42] It makes me because Stone takes some liberties with the truth
[13:45] along the way. But when it comes to Ferry,
[13:46] should be torn. His looks down.
[13:48] She doesn't look ridiculous. No, no, no, no, not the
[13:50] slightest. They can look more ridiculous.
[13:54] 11. Yeah, exactly.
[13:57] And you know, when you hear stories about actors in certain
[13:59] films that they'll hide themselves away from the rest of
[14:01] the cast for shock value, like Tom Noonan and Manhunt there.
[14:05] I wish Pesci had done that here. Can you imagine if that's Costin
[14:08] has seen him for the first time in that week?
[14:10] And those eyebrows, that meanness to Gabazon, but not
[14:14] forget you at all, David. But I think Ferry, he's just the
[14:18] worst possible person to have involved in a conspiracy because
[14:21] he just completely crumbles under the slightest of
[14:24] questions. Here he is the most nervous
[14:26] smoker I've ever seen in me life.
[14:28] None of his story makes any kind of sense, particularly the goose
[14:31] hunting you back me geese in this trip I believe the boys got
[14:34] a couple boys told us they didn't get any.
[14:37] She said you. Can see he's drowning, he's
[14:39] completely drowned. And then when Garrison catches
[14:41] him out that that he's been told I had no weapons in the car
[14:44] anyway, just that unbelievably awkward pause where he's tapping
[14:47] the cigarette out. Yes, I remember now.
[14:49] I got confused. We didn't have any.
[14:51] It's just the worst interrogation I've ever seen.
[14:54] And it is, you know, for if I'm not big enough.
[14:57] So it is quite a comical scene, especially in the end.
[14:59] I find you, sorry, simply not believable.
[15:01] Really. What part?
[15:04] Like. It's ridiculous, yeah.
[15:07] It starts off bad when he says you're a hell of a pilot.
[15:11] Yeah, really. Usually sweating already.
[15:16] Really. Yeah, yeah.
[15:18] Hello. Pesci is fantastic.
[15:19] There were three other actors approached to play.
[15:21] David Ferrie was James Woods, Willem Dufour and John
[15:24] Malkovich, who all turned it down.
[15:27] Right. Yeah, I think maybe Dufour and
[15:29] Malkovich maybe. Could have played Oswald.
[15:31] Maybe that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[15:34] Jimmy Woods been out of control. Him in that week, I can't see
[15:38] it. I don't.
[15:39] Think that would have happened to be honest.
[15:43] So we're very released that seemingly brings an end of the
[15:46] investigation before it even starts.
[15:48] Yeah. We cut to three years later and
[15:52] an innocuous conversation between Garrison and send it
[15:55] along on a plane which sends everything spiraling out of
[15:57] control. Matter.
[15:59] It is over to you for this one. Yeah, you know you've got a
[16:02] stacked cast when you can get Hollywood legend Walter Matt
[16:05] away in for one scene. In one scene only.
[16:08] Unbelievable. And have Jack Lemmon and don't
[16:10] put them in the same scene. Exactly, It's the only film that
[16:12] don't make. I think it's the only film
[16:14] that's done that, which is amazing.
[16:16] But that tells you how key the casting is because there's so
[16:18] many pieces of information that someone wants you to recognize
[16:22] this is important. And he does this by making sure
[16:25] everyone who says something important is memorable.
[16:27] And This is why users might only doesn't just use some job and
[16:30] actor that he could have done because he wants to sort lay in
[16:33] the seeds of everything going forward.
[16:36] This all comes down to Vietnam. They've bitten off more that can
[16:38] do Lyndon Johnson can't be trusted.
[16:40] I love his description of being a poor cat, and we need to see
[16:43] the moment where something sparks in Garrison's mind that
[16:46] the official story isn't correct.
[16:48] And that's what Send It Along does here.
[16:50] How unlikely the book depositary is as a place for the killing.
[16:53] How Oswald is anything but a crack shot, which he's supposed
[16:55] to be to be able to pull this off.
[16:57] How difficult the shot is. And most importantly of all,
[16:59] it's the first mention of the magic bullet theory and how
[17:02] zigzags everywhere. And I love Mad House dialogue
[17:05] here. 1 pristine bullet. That dog don't hunt.
[17:08] That's wonderful outline. So great on the face.
[17:11] Would you think? Oh great, Mad House turned up?
[17:13] But actually, this kick starts the whole thing and establishes
[17:16] how shaky that official report is in just this little 2 minute
[17:19] scene. Yeah, conversation by chance
[17:21] starts the whole thing off. Yeah.
[17:23] And after this, Garrison, his head is filled with fanciful
[17:26] thoughts of conspiracy, and he begins to ask questions.
[17:29] And that's starting with Jack Martin, played by Jack Lemmon,
[17:32] whom he meets at the racetrack. Yeah.
[17:35] And this again, wonderful choice by Stone, who serves up probably
[17:38] the most beloved double act in movie history, Matthew and
[17:42] Lemon, and separates them. Yeah.
[17:45] But I think this again shows how Stone positioned all of his
[17:48] pieces to legitimize his theories.
[17:50] Surely everyone thinks that Lemon is one of the most
[17:52] trustworthy actors in movie history.
[17:55] Yeah, whatever he's telling us must be true.
[17:58] Yeah. And the scene picks up from a
[17:59] scene at the start where Guy Bannister smacks Martin about
[18:02] with his gun. He introduces the Cuban exiles
[18:04] and David Furry, and the thing starts to snowball and snowball.
[18:08] And this is such incredible visual storytelling from Stone.
[18:11] And he does it all the way through the film overlay in a
[18:13] flashback with Bannister Oswald and Claire Bertrand with Jack's
[18:16] voice over. If this was shot without those
[18:18] flashbacks, it just would have been too overwhelmingly dense to
[18:21] even penetrate. Definitely.
[18:23] I love that there's a a shot in this scene where an
[18:26] overwhelmingly suspicious fella in a hat and suit is lurking in
[18:30] the background just looking. Over.
[18:32] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we don't know if he's
[18:33] listening, and it's never referred to a game, but it just
[18:36] reinforces the sense of paranoia the film has.
[18:37] Yeah, definitely, expertly. And then it's a quick move to
[18:41] meet up with Dean Andrews, the jive ass Turkey shade wearing,
[18:45] sweating sleazeball. Dean Andrews was a slimy
[18:49] accident chasing lawyer who claimed to have been contacted
[18:52] by someone to represent Oswald when he was arrested, something
[18:55] which he later retracted, obviously and.
[18:57] Originally, Candy scene was going to be removed from the
[19:00] final court, which he was devastated about.
[19:02] But the scene was reinserted after Kosnik came to his defence
[19:05] and Stone later wrote Candy a letter where you apologise for
[19:07] even considering taking the scene out.
[19:09] Yeah, yeah. I mean, it would have been
[19:10] crazy, yeah, because Candy just lights the screen up in this
[19:14] role. I can't say why it was at the
[19:16] risk of being cut, because he really doesn't add anything to
[19:19] the film apart from just a whole load of colour.
[19:23] Yeah. Yeah, but a real sense of
[19:24] danger, though. Yeah, yes, yeah, that close way
[19:27] smoking. Yeah, Paranoid.
[19:29] Paranoid. I mean, it's just his demeanor
[19:32] alone which is striking, but his patterns of speech and his
[19:35] dialogue are wonderful. Why dancing on my head?
[19:38] For man, we've been thick as more or less as past since high
[19:41] school, really. I mean, like, both to my head,
[19:44] you dig? He's great.
[19:47] And there's an incredible match cut as he draws on his cigarette
[19:50] and stone cuts to a flashback of him drawing on a cigarette with
[19:53] Tay Bertrand. Yeah.
[19:55] Technically wonderful and great writing and performances as
[19:58] well. Yeah, and I think kind of an
[20:00] unusual choice considering his reputation for comedic roles.
[20:04] He was chosen by Stone because he looked just like Andrews.
[20:06] He does looks a lot like him. Yeah, he does.
[20:09] Yeah. Yeah.
[20:09] And he is obviously the most comedic character in the film
[20:12] apart from Pesci piece of. Course.
[20:14] Yeah, eyebrows. Yeah, wonderful.
[20:16] These eyebrows. Yeah, sweating was for read as
[20:18] well from Candy, wasn't he was under like such He was so
[20:20] nervous about being ensemble cast.
[20:23] To stuff, yeah. And then we'll go from there to
[20:25] the prison scene with O'Keefe, right?
[20:27] I mean, has Kevin Bacon been better than this ever?
[20:31] No, it doesn't touch how good he the swagger when he first turns
[20:35] up and he just walks through that room and the way the lights
[20:38] hitting him, he's in Great Neck. Obviously you're going to say
[20:41] that he's absolutely fantastic. And his dialogue is just so
[20:45] cutting and it's just electric. The way he delivers it like a
[20:48] snake sudden itself on the road. It's just like it's got this
[20:51] real kind of wisp to it and this confidence that he plays this
[20:54] character with is amazing. And then we'll start going into
[20:57] the flashbacks and he's meeting the clear through Ferry and he
[21:00] just walks up and when he walks past, Oswald just offers him the
[21:02] handshake and he said what the fuck he doing?
[21:04] Fuck you, motherfucker. It's absolutely amazing just for
[21:09] a fight straight away. I love that.
[21:11] And I love the way he kind of goes into the story much.
[21:13] We're bringing the Cubans into the story now.
[21:15] So that's another string of the ball that somebody else who
[21:17] could have been guilty for, you know, the whole assassination
[21:20] attempts or opens another can of worms.
[21:22] It's just amazing how he really kind of has Ferry here laying
[21:26] out the whole plot as we know it in that flashback.
[21:29] It's like that can't be real because it's everything that we
[21:32] know about it. He's basically setting up the
[21:34] whole plot. You have a trifecta of the gun,
[21:37] you shoot through there. You have a Warner shot over
[21:38] there. That's where you take the kill
[21:39] shot and just thinking really just that you don't trust
[21:44] O'Keefe because you're thinking, well, that's what he's telling
[21:46] them, so how can he know that? He's just read that somewhere.
[21:49] So then he's just kind of reiterating it back.
[21:51] So you, again, you're on the back foot.
[21:52] You don't trust anybody and especially not OK.
[21:55] I think it's an incredible character.
[21:56] I mean, the completely fictional character in the world didn't
[22:00] exist at all. But I think the way that Stone
[22:02] puts so much into the character to make him untrustworthy, but
[22:06] still very believable, then he goes into his own personal
[22:08] opinion about it, about Kennedy beat Nixon.
[22:11] And then, you know, then he starts pulling the race card
[22:15] out, which nobody's done yet. And it's like, is that a reason?
[22:18] Is that a catalyst? Is that what this is all about?
[22:20] And it just leaves it wide open. And that part in line.
[22:23] You're not a bad looking there, Mr. Garrison.
[22:25] Not bad looking it up. When I get out here I'll come
[22:28] get pay your visit and you just your left hanging going.
[22:31] This guys horrible awful but I want to see more of them.
[22:34] Yeah, he's really electric. Yeah, real prison, real inmates.
[22:38] It's got this authenticity to it, which just, it absolutely
[22:41] rings of sweat. It's horrible, but amazingly
[22:44] done. Just the authenticity is
[22:46] fantastic for a completely fictional character that's
[22:49] somewhere really believable that it works.
[22:51] Yeah, it's a real angle of prison.
[22:53] Yeah, like you said, real guards, real prisoners.
[22:56] And Stone loved it as a location.
[22:58] He said that he would love to shoot an entire film there.
[23:01] Right. It's incredible and yeah, well,
[23:03] you O'Keefe was a composite of a number of witnesses who claimed
[23:07] to have seen Oswald mixing with Furry and Shore, one of which
[23:10] was Peru Russo, one of the real Jim Garrison's witnesses.
[23:13] Right. More on that guy later.
[23:15] Yes. Yes.
[23:16] So Garrison is starting to build his case, but so far he's got a
[23:20] collection of shady characters, people who are afraid to talk,
[23:22] and people who talk too much. What a combo.
[23:25] Yep. The director.
[23:32] Coming off the back of an incredibly successful 80s with
[23:35] critical commercial praise and abundance, and a few Oscars to
[23:38] boot, Oliver Stone arguably reached a creative peak with JP.
[23:42] So our thoughts on his work here as director, and I mentioned
[23:46] before that, you know, the use of flashbacks makes a lot, a lot
[23:49] of things a lot clearer, but it's still a hell of a lot to
[23:52] chew on. Yeah, yeah.
[23:55] This many characters over this period of time, over this
[23:58] runtime, with different theories and opinions and facts, and over
[24:01] that entire lines. How on earth are we going to
[24:03] make this all fit? But I think he does it in a few
[24:05] specific ways. Firstly, the scenes are just
[24:09] larger than life. It's not a whistle stop tour of
[24:13] all the evidence available in the case.
[24:15] Stone takes his sweet, sweet time about these big scenes,
[24:18] most clocking in a 5 minutes plus.
[24:21] So we're able to kind of relax into the information being
[24:24] presented and can make visual attachments to the information
[24:27] and the characters because the scenes themselves are just so
[24:29] memorable. Then what he does is fill these
[24:32] pivotal character roles who only really have one scene each with
[24:36] some of the most memorable actors of the last 30 years.
[24:40] Ed Azner, Mathau, Lemon, Bacon, Sutherland, the list goes on and
[24:43] on. Yeah.
[24:45] And because we've got an emotional connection with these
[24:47] actors from previous roles, we're bringing all of that
[24:49] baggage to the film to make these scenes resonate and make
[24:52] them incredibly memorable. And Stone said that once Costner
[24:56] was in place, Warren just didn't care about the rest of the cast,
[24:59] he said. I wanted to get faces that were
[25:01] recognisable and memorable in there because it's a complicated
[25:04] movie and if you don't know who the name of the person is, you
[25:07] get confused. So I had to make the people as
[25:10] vivid as possible so that you would remember the storyline and
[25:12] the clues. Yeah, that makes sense.
[25:15] Yeah, Stone took inspiration by Caston of the epic war film The
[25:19] Longest Day. Westie, the one that you've just
[25:20] mentioned. Oh yeah, yeah, Yep.
[25:22] He said it was realistic, but it had a lot of stars.
[25:24] The support and cast provides a map of American psyche, familiar
[25:27] comfortable faces that walk you through winding path in dark
[25:30] woods. Great.
[25:33] So because of the importance of the material, a lot of the cast
[25:36] just show the support by waving their fees.
[25:38] Amazing stuff. And then on top of that, you've
[25:41] got the characters who fill the support cast in multiple scenes
[25:44] that aren't that memorable. The likes of Michael Rucker,
[25:47] Laurie Metcalf, Wayne Knight, great performers but generally
[25:51] forgettable character actors. With all due respect.
[25:54] Yes, of course. Yeah, yeah.
[25:56] These took into the background, so the likes of Lemon really
[25:58] stand out. And it's not just the director
[26:01] of the scenes and the actors within, it's the location
[26:03] shooting which embed in your mind's eye math.
[26:05] I was on the plane. Lemon at the racetrack, Candy in
[26:08] the restaurant, Bacon in Prison. X in Washington.
[26:11] Even makes Pesci's wake larger than life.
[26:13] So we make a emotional connection to it.
[26:15] Yeah, it's an incredible kind of chess set, isn't it?
[26:18] It's amazing, all these pieces all around.
[26:21] And everything's got a kind of mean and then a way to move.
[26:23] I think it's just an ingenious way of making one of the most
[26:26] complex stories ever told pretty easy to follow.
[26:29] Yeah. Wesley, your thoughts on Stone
[26:31] as director here. I mean, it's, it's an incredible
[26:34] master class in direction and storytelling, visual
[26:37] storytelling, how to work with actors, how to work with crew
[26:41] and especially how to work with another and get an editor in who
[26:43] hasn't edited a feature film before.
[26:45] And there's commercials and he's just went, I want your style all
[26:50] over that. We can see, you know what?
[26:52] Stone is going to give the nod on the final cut, but he just
[26:54] wants people to inject something that's not been seen before in a
[26:58] contemporary Hollywood film. You want something different.
[27:01] You want something electric, like I've said before,
[27:03] fast-paced in your face. It's probably one of the best
[27:06] edited films I've seen. It's one of the best editor
[27:08] films that I can think of. Wesley, I've literally written
[27:11] those words down word for word in my note verbatim.
[27:15] Yeah, lovely. Sorry.
[27:19] That's because it's true though, isn't it?
[27:21] That's just because it's true. I mean, it's just so engaging.
[27:24] It's the pace of it and the fact that he seems to have shot
[27:26] everything from every focal length he shot.
[27:28] Everything is a wide, everything's a made,
[27:30] everything's a close up. He's got all these choices, like
[27:33] just the John Kennedy scene was spoken about.
[27:35] I mean, I have them smoking and not that close up.
[27:37] You know, he's got a mid of it, you know, he's got a wide of it.
[27:40] You know for a fact he's covered everything.
[27:41] He's got everything. You know, it's just all day.
[27:43] He's got all of the pieces there and he's just putting it all
[27:46] together. This is every tool in the
[27:48] toolbox in 1991 to make a film. He's got the whole tool, it's
[27:52] B&Q, he's got the whole toolbox. He says to Richardson, like,
[27:56] what do we need? He's like, well, 35 mil film, Do
[27:59] you need 16? Do you need 8?
[28:00] Yep, right. Get them as well.
[28:01] That's all fine. Do you want black and white?
[28:03] You want colour? Get all that in there.
[28:05] How many lights do you need? Hundreds, right?
[28:07] Get them in there no problem. And it's just the way that he
[28:10] constructs it. None of that is wasted is what
[28:12] I'm saying. None of it seems pretentious.
[28:14] It all seems incredibly necessary to tell the story the
[28:17] way he wants to tell the story. I never watch this film and go,
[28:20] oh, this is just overkill. This is too much.
[28:23] It's thank God that's in black and white.
[28:24] Thank God that's in color. Thank God that's on 16 mil.
[28:27] Because now I can kind of differentiate like he's done
[28:29] with the characters. He does that with the camera.
[28:32] He does that with film stock. He does that with the pace of
[28:34] the edits, what they're going to cut, do next, how they're going
[28:36] to cut with how fast, how much is going to hold a shot.
[28:39] There's not one scene in this whole film where it's just a
[28:42] dialogue sequence just on a tripod with just over the
[28:44] shoulders back and forth. That's it, right?
[28:46] Dump, dump, dump, same focal length.
[28:48] That's it. Don't hold the camera there.
[28:50] Fantastic. Yeah, it's about the
[28:51] performance. It's about the performance from
[28:53] the Atlas, but also about the performance of the camera and
[28:55] where that's going. It's always moving.
[28:56] You're always engaged. You're always thinking about it.
[28:59] And one of the things that he does here is how well he layers
[29:02] to the film. It's just layer upon layer upon
[29:04] layer. And there's flashbacks within
[29:06] flashbacks, which is, again, really intelligent and really
[29:09] clever. And I hadn't really seen much of
[29:10] that opener now. And Stone said I wanted to do
[29:12] the film on two or three levels. Sound and picture would take us
[29:15] back and we go from 1 flashback to another, and then the
[29:18] flashback would go inside another flashback.
[29:20] I wanted multiple layers because reading the Warren Commission
[29:23] report is like drowning. And he's absolutely right.
[29:26] And that's what he's doing and fucking nailed it.
[29:28] It's unbelievable. It's like Inception, isn't it?
[29:31] It's. Unbelievable for Inception,
[29:32] yeah, although Inception is probably more factual.
[29:37] And more fact based. Yeah.
[29:41] Oscar winning, edited by Joe Hudson and Pietro Scalia.
[29:44] Yeah. Incredible stuff.
[29:46] Unbelievable work. Yeah.
[29:47] So there's one more note on the editing as well and how this was
[29:49] done technically. Because using 35 mil, 16 mil and
[29:52] eight mil, you kind of just cut all that together on the same
[29:54] machine. You just didn't have Avid or you
[29:56] didn't have their machines back in 91.
[29:58] So they put everything onto videotape and then he'd cut to
[30:02] the videotape and then they would match cut whatever he got
[30:05] on the video to the actual footage, which is just
[30:07] absolutely incredible. And considering they had about 3
[30:11] months to edit. Just start hitting the buttons.
[30:16] He's got all the shots, it doesn't really matter.
[30:22] Matt, your thoughts on Stone as director?
[30:24] Yeah, I mean, Can you imagine what Oliver Stone did on day one
[30:26] of the shoot? Because I can't.
[30:29] Where do you start with this? The sheer amount of information
[30:33] and people and plot strands he's got to keep on top of and not
[30:37] for one minute while he's lost control of this film.
[30:40] The sheer amount of plates he's spinning in the air is mind
[30:43] boggling and it's astonishing how well he lands everything.
[30:46] And I think Stone is maybe being a bit forgotten about these days
[30:49] in terms of his ability as a director, which I'll get into
[30:52] when we talk about the film's legacy.
[30:53] But this is undoubtedly his best film as a storyteller and he's
[30:57] pulling together every single element of film making in
[31:00] service of the story. As you just said, the use of
[31:03] editing here is sincerely complicated.
[31:05] The use of flashbacks is breathtaking.
[31:07] I mean, obviously the film is in colour and then you have
[31:09] flashbacks in colour, but then you have flashbacks in black and
[31:12] white and then you have flashbacks which are black and
[31:15] white but also meant it looked like stock footage from the time
[31:17] and then you have actual stock footage mixed in with it.
[31:21] It's like you're using the edit and just to peel back all the
[31:24] layers of deception to finally see the truth underneath.
[31:27] And it just leaves me dizzy because you don't know where you
[31:30] are. You don't know what's true, you
[31:31] don't know what to lie. And that's the point.
[31:33] And then the way he also mixes up the chronology.
[31:35] And then he will use flash forwards, like the flashback of
[31:38] interviewing Lee Bowers, who was the guy who was working high up
[31:41] with the view of the parking lot at the start.
[31:43] And then you just get that brief image of him dead in a car with
[31:47] no explanation until much later on when you get totally he dies
[31:51] of a heart attack in his car. It's the same when Susie Laurie
[31:55] Metcalf's character, she's outlining Oswald's background in
[31:58] the restaurant. That's indicate with the photo
[32:01] being put together of Oswald for Life magazine.
[32:03] But again, incredible. Not explained to much further
[32:05] down the line. I mean, all that could just fall
[32:08] apart, but it doesn't. And after 3 1/2 hours, I get to
[32:11] the end. I think.
[32:11] Where did the time go? Because this is the fastest 3
[32:14] 1/2 hours you'll ever see. It moves like a rocket in stone.
[32:18] He's just created this incredibly intricate maze that
[32:21] anyone else tried to do it. It would collapse, but he
[32:23] guides, he threw it and he leaves at the end.
[32:25] It's gone. What do you think about all that
[32:27] today? I mean, I'm pretty confident.
[32:29] I'm out of breath. Yeah, into the.
[32:31] It's like it's up to, you know. Yeah.
[32:32] Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there's all the pieces.
[32:34] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, work it out.
[32:39] Yeah, 3 1/2 hours. I mean those words and me do not
[32:42] mix well. The dawn at all, No.
[32:44] I mean I could watch 2 slasher films in that time at least, but
[32:51] this is incredible. You should know the fucking
[32:53] murderer is. So in 1988, Oliver Stone was at
[33:01] the Latin American Film Festival in Havana.
[33:04] He picked up an award. The publisher Jim Garrison's
[33:07] book Ellen Rear was also at the festival and handed Stone a copy
[33:10] of it. Stone read it while working on
[33:12] Born on the 4th of July. Loved it.
[33:14] He's not that the rights of the book for 1/4 of a million out of
[33:16] his own pocket. And he did that to stop
[33:19] speculation about projects that he was developed and he didn't
[33:22] want anybody peering into this story.
[33:25] And then Stone had an initial meeting with Garrison where he
[33:27] put him through the ringer. Stone was impressed by his
[33:30] integrity, but drew the following conclusions from his
[33:32] meetings. Garrison made many mistakes.
[33:35] He trusted a lot of weirdos and followed a lot of fake leads.
[33:38] But he went out on a limb, way out.
[33:41] Yeah, you know what I mean? He's not the only one, no.
[33:45] And while he was prepping for The Doors, Stone spoke to warn
[33:48] us about possibly doing a Howard Hughes biography on a biopic,
[33:52] Which we all know Scorsese did later with The Aviator.
[33:55] Fantastic. We haven't seen that.
[33:57] But this hit a snag when they found out that Warren Beatty
[33:59] owned the rights to the story. So Stone hit them with these JFK
[34:02] pitch secondary. Oh, by the way, I've just got
[34:06] this. Yeah, yeah.
[34:10] Warners was the only studio that Stone went to with the idea.
[34:13] He was certain that he could have gotten a better deal
[34:15] elsewhere, but he didn't want a bidden war shedding light on the
[34:17] project. Yeah.
[34:18] Yeah, he said. I knew the material was
[34:20] dangerous and I only wanted one entity to finance the whole
[34:23] thing. He didn't want it leaked, did
[34:24] he? Paranoia all the way through,
[34:26] Yeah. Exactly, I love it.
[34:27] Yeah, imitating life. However, one is what only
[34:32] willing to simple $20 million for the production.
[34:34] But Stone knew he needed more on account of the the size of the
[34:37] screenplay. So he went to independent
[34:39] producer On and Mil Chan, and he wanted a tentpole movie to
[34:42] launch his new company, Regency Enterprises, and so he put up
[34:46] the other $20 million Stone was looking for.
[34:48] And a lot of that budget was spent on recreating the period
[34:51] in real locations. The recreation of 1963 Dealey
[34:54] Plaza was pricey, coming in at a cost of $4 million.
[35:02] He's filming there for three weeks, which during which time
[35:04] the police closed streets and rerouted traffic.
[35:07] The murder of Oswald was shot in the same location where Ruby
[35:10] shot Oswald. Actually.
[35:11] You see it goes for the theatre where Oswald was arrested as
[35:13] well. Stone gave the exterior of that
[35:15] theatre a 1963 style remodeling as well.
[35:19] Right, which kept them open, didn't it?
[35:21] That's right, yeah. Yeah, the phone kind of kept
[35:23] there, kept going after that. Amazing.
[35:24] That's right. The film was largely shot on
[35:27] location, but there were a few sets built.
[35:29] One of the most extravagant was a replica of the Oval Office,
[35:32] which was reconstructed based on archival footage.
[35:35] And it's in the film for 8 seconds and cost $70,000.
[35:39] And it's in black and white. Yes, man.
[35:51] Money is no objective. Seconds.
[35:52] Well. What do you do with that set
[35:58] afterwards? 7070 thousand dollars, yeah.
[36:01] Get rid of it. Yeah, get rid of.
[36:03] It don't, don't. Just to use it for The West Wing
[36:06] or something. They must have used it for
[36:07] something, surely? Well, they've got Sheen they may
[36:10] as well use it for. Like.
[36:11] Yeah, they kept it for Nixon a few years later.
[36:14] Yeah, yeah. Independence Day, maybe.
[36:15] I wouldn't have thought that. And for the style of the film,
[36:20] Stone took huge inspiration from the Costa Gravas political
[36:23] thriller Z or Z, depending where you're from, he said.
[36:26] You look at a crime, you accept the first version of it, the
[36:29] official version, then you look at it again.
[36:31] Yeah, just like Rashomon. Yes, yeah, that was another big
[36:34] influence was not in. The yeah, yeah, yeah.
[36:37] So it was. Mr. Smith goes to Washington for
[36:39] the courtroom scenes. You can see that, yeah.
[36:41] Absolutely, Yeah, Yeah. And it's not just because
[36:44] they're a crazy fan, but I can also see the influence of
[36:46] Blowout Yeah Self majorly influenced by the Sapruda film.
[36:50] Yes, yeah, yeah. The paranoia, absolutely the.
[36:53] Elements of the conversation in there as well, without doubt.
[36:55] Yeah, yeah. Going to end this section on a
[36:58] quote from the big man himself who said I think I was always
[37:01] controversial, provocative. It's in my nature to want to
[37:04] know the truth of a situation. And that's not to say that I'm
[37:07] right, but I have to ask questions.
[37:09] I never made a movie for money. Nice.
[37:11] He's got his integrity, the. Cast.
[37:19] Where to start with the cast as dazzling as this one?
[37:22] We've talked about some of the memorable Cameron yours already.
[37:25] We'll talk about more as we go. But here we're talking about the
[37:28] characters that drive the narrative.
[37:30] TLG is clear show and Gary Oldman as Lee Harvey Oswald are
[37:33] coming up. But first, it's the big man.
[37:35] You don't mess with Big Jim Garrison, Matt.
[37:37] You certainly don't. I mean Costner, huge fan anyway,
[37:40] he's one of me favourites in his performance.
[37:42] He is so key to the whole film because he makes everything
[37:46] believable. And Costner is representing
[37:49] Oliver Stone here. And Stone makes some wild
[37:51] accusations in this film. Lyndon Johnson was in on it, but
[37:55] because they come out of the mouth of Costnet, it gives them
[37:57] that sense of respectability because the thing you get from
[38:00] Costin above everything else is the sense of integrity.
[38:03] He's very much stuff throwback to the likes of Gary Cooper, Jim
[38:07] Stewart, somebody which always stands up for what's right and
[38:10] correct, even if it means going against the very government
[38:13] itself. You know, this is rare from
[38:15] Field of Dreams, This is Elliot Ness from The Untouchables.
[38:17] And that's the touchstone for me in terms of the performance,
[38:20] because it's easy to imagine Elliot Ness retiring from the
[38:23] police and becoming this lawyer and leading this investigation.
[38:27] And that's what Costin does so well.
[38:28] And if you think who else could have done this, who else was the
[38:31] big name at the time? You know, someone like Mel
[38:33] Gibson, for example. But The thing is, Gibson, he'd
[38:35] give Gaussen too much of an edge and he would make him seen
[38:38] insane. But Costin just makes him seem
[38:41] like a man driven to uncover the truth and driven to uncover the
[38:44] most heinous conspiracy imaginables.
[38:46] But because it's that cost of integrity, you believe him.
[38:49] Yeah, you do. Very much.
[38:51] American has apple pie isn't. He apple pie, the fly,
[38:55] everything. You know, you think this one
[38:57] would never tell a lie. He'd never believe a lie.
[38:59] You know, I believe everything he says.
[39:00] And The thing is, you're also looking at somebody who's got a
[39:02] shoulder, this very long film and keep you on side, which he
[39:06] completely does. And obviously we'll get to the
[39:08] end eventually, but just that final monologue addressing the
[39:12] jury, laying out the whole conspiracy, the size of that.
[39:15] But it's no small ask for an actor, something the size of it
[39:18] any nails. It's all it's incredibly smart
[39:20] casting and I just don't think anyone else could have made it
[39:22] work the way Costner does. Yeah, I think it's one of the
[39:25] most natural fit and roles for any actor in any film ever.
[39:29] Yeah. Costner, Mr. Wholesome You need
[39:32] this kind of wholesome persona to navigate you through this
[39:35] maze and to be believable. Take you by the hand.
[39:38] It's going to be all right. It could have been very gung ho
[39:40] as well, couldn't? It could be very much, you know,
[39:42] wrap yourself in the flag. But I don't think there's a
[39:45] blind love for his country. I think there's an absolute
[39:47] affection for it, and that's totally different.
[39:50] He's emotional about it. Yeah, Yeah, he is.
[39:52] He's magnificent. This is probably him at his
[39:54] zenith. It went downhill not long after
[39:56] this, didn't it? Robin Hood for me, but it's just
[39:58] close. Seven times at the cinema,
[40:02] wasn't it? Try again mate.
[40:06] Double that, Warner's pushed hard for Costner because of his
[40:11] movie star bankability. After he signed on for the film,
[40:14] he went on to clean up at the Oscars for Dances With Wolves,
[40:16] obviously, which added an additional layer of movie
[40:19] stardom at JFK. Really, really elevated it.
[40:22] Yeah, loads of cashier. Costner was not the only person
[40:24] in the frame for Garrison, of course.
[40:26] We love to hear about it. Stolen off at the Part 2,
[40:29] Harrison Ford and somebody that you just mentioned, Matt Mel
[40:31] Gibson. Lovely Garrison Ford.
[40:37] They both declined, Gibson and Stone sharing a particularly
[40:41] flawed dinner meeting, apparently all right, but
[40:44] Costner eventually took the role for 7 million in a cut of the
[40:47] box office receipts. He was on Stone's radar after
[40:50] his performance in Elliot Ness and The Untouchables.
[40:53] Coincidentally, though, on that film he got the gig after it was
[40:56] turned down by none other than Harrison Ford and Mel Gibson.
[41:00] Great. To prepare for the role, Costner
[41:03] met with fans of Gaussen's work, but also with people he
[41:05] considered his enemies and Stone said.
[41:07] I wanted Costner to get both sides to witness the hatred and
[41:11] extremism that Jim engenders, and as an actor, to look into
[41:14] the eyes of his enemies and know what he was up against back
[41:16] then. Yeah, Jim Garrison died not long
[41:18] after the film was released, but he does play a part in the film.
[41:20] In a flashback scene, he plays the head of the Commission, Earl
[41:24] Warren, right? There were a lot of outrageous
[41:26] revelations in the real Jim Garrison's investigation,
[41:29] including him giving key witness Perry Russo, who we mentioned
[41:32] earlier William O'Keefe is partly based on.
[41:35] He gave him questions under hypnosis and shots of sodium
[41:38] pentathol, informally known as the truth serum, to get the
[41:42] answers that he wanted about Clay Shaw.
[41:45] Hypnosis doesn't show that. Funny that.
[41:51] Why, Yeah. Omit that.
[41:52] Embellish that. Definitely.
[41:55] There were a lot of unsubstantiated theories in his
[41:57] argument, and it took the jury only one hour to acquit.
[42:01] Clear show, right? Which kind of shows you how
[42:04] paper thin his argument was. Really.
[42:06] Yeah. Probably Russo's in the film
[42:08] though, wasn't he? He's the guy at the bar at the
[42:10] start applauding Kennedy being shot and seeing all the medal.
[42:14] That's right. He was.
[42:16] He was an advisor on the film. Yeah.
[42:18] So one of the most perfect casting choices of the 90s.
[42:21] Costner was your go to wholesome actor in the period and this is
[42:24] one of his greatest roles. Sure is.
[42:29] Next up is the man Garrison tries to pin the entire case on.
[42:33] It is Tommy Lee Jones who plays Clay Shaw, and I think this is a
[42:37] very tricky role for Tommy Lee Jones.
[42:39] His character exists largely in flashback, so he often isn't
[42:43] present presence. He's part of, you know, that big
[42:47] stretch, 45 minute courtroom stretch at the end.
[42:50] But he's not really present there either, no.
[42:52] And he's there to personify Garrison Stones and the
[42:55] audience's anger and frustration at the whole thing.
[42:57] He's the poster boy for the assassination.
[42:59] That's what Stone makes it. Obviously he's two people, isn't
[43:02] he's two different sides to the coin.
[43:04] And I think the flashbacks you see who he really is and then
[43:06] the present day you don't see anything from whatsoever.
[43:08] I think it's really played like. Yeah, it is.
[43:10] He don't. Amazingly played.
[43:12] He has to be memorable and forgettable.
[43:14] In fact, you were seeing Westie. Two sides of the coin.
[43:16] He has to be heinous and sympathetic.
[43:18] Guilt. He is sin and innocent.
[43:19] There's a choirboy. See why he got the job AS2 face
[43:22] now can you? Don't know how he manages, but
[43:26] he manages to pull all of this off while remaining in the
[43:28] background and it's an incredible thing that he does
[43:31] and it's largely down to his delivery and his physicality.
[43:35] Yeah. You know his actions are
[43:37] excusable to a degree. If you were being accused of
[43:39] something that you hadn't done, you would try to rubbish the
[43:42] credibility of your accuser in the press.
[43:45] He's great in that scene when he's arrested.
[43:47] When the police come to his door, he's got his silk pajamas
[43:50] on, and the look on his face is that of like a rabbit caught in
[43:53] headlights. In that one shot, he's able to
[43:56] convey without any words the distinct possibility that
[43:59] Garrison's just got it wrong all along and that this isn't the
[44:01] guy and that maybe he's being persecuted because of his
[44:05] sexuality, which has LED certain people to consider that this
[44:08] would make him capable of this overblown plot.
[44:10] Outrageous stuff. And I really love the moment in
[44:13] the police station where he's asked if he goes by any aliases,
[44:16] and he reluctantly says, Clay Bertrand, and there's reporters
[44:26] being for blood behind him calling out his name.
[44:28] And we can see in that moment that regardless of the outcome
[44:31] of this investigation, I think his life will be changed forever
[44:34] for the worse as well. An impressively restrained
[44:37] performance from TLJ here for me.
[44:39] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
[44:40] This is just so unlike him. It's so out of like, it's so
[44:44] against type, but I think that's why it's so incredible.
[44:46] Because Lee Jones is like a tough guy, isn't he?
[44:49] Yeah. Yeah, you would seem like
[44:50] there's no way you would do some of the things in this film or
[44:52] get it about when I'm talking about the scene, but there's
[44:54] some scenes in this list. That with Tommy Lee.
[44:56] Jones, yeah. Is that totally Jones?
[44:58] Yeah. Just he has that reputation of
[45:00] just being a little bit of a hard ass, just very much down
[45:02] the line what he wants to do. And then he meets Oliver Stone
[45:04] and this, Yeah, not his matches. Power struggle, yeah.
[45:09] And Lee Jones also prepared for his role by spending time with
[45:12] Garrison, along with acquaintances of Clare Shaw.
[45:15] He was in the frame to play the character that was ultimately
[45:17] cut from the shooting strip, so it's still moved him into this
[45:19] role. It doesn't seem like a natural
[45:21] fit, but he just fits naturally into.
[45:23] It. So I've always been in movies
[45:25] for over 2 decades. JFK made TLG household name in
[45:29] the 90s and without it I'm certain that he wouldn't go on
[45:31] to get his Oscar for the future to a couple of years later.
[45:37] Finally, what better way to fill the mythical shoes of one of
[45:40] recent history's great enigmas and give it to an Englishman
[45:43] with a relatively low key career so far?
[45:45] Yeah. Yeah, but it's another career
[45:48] catapulted and role for Gary Oldman as Lee Harvey Oswald I.
[45:52] Mean this performance is incredible.
[45:55] He is immersed in this role. He just disappears completely,
[45:59] much like he does as Drexel. I think it's very much just I'm
[46:02] giving into the material, I'm giving it to the director, I'm
[46:05] giving into this film and I'm just going to completely
[46:06] disappear. I don't.
[46:07] You can see he probably doesn't even want paying for it at all.
[46:10] He's just enjoyed himself that much.
[46:13] You can see that's not his fault because he's not doing this to
[46:15] further his career. He's not doing it to get some
[46:18] money in the bank. He's doing this because this is
[46:19] an absolute actor's dream. What's Oldman's dream to become
[46:23] this character that everybody knows, this personification,
[46:26] this like you say, he is the enigma.
[46:28] He is the mystery of the film. Who is Lee Harvey Oswald?
[46:31] Is he a Patsy? Is he?
[46:33] Did he speak Russian? You know, he's in the Marines,
[46:35] but he was, you know, court martialed twice.
[46:37] Who is this guy? The person who Lee Harvey Oswald
[46:40] is is so integral to this whole thing politically because if you
[46:44] can figure out him as a person, you can figure out if he did it
[46:46] or not. And I think that's what all this
[46:47] really getting a hold of. He's incredible in this film,
[46:51] but he doesn't steal it. And I don't know how, but
[46:54] everyone's the same. It's not like, oh, it's not like
[46:56] he's Ledger in The Dark Knight, right where he's on the screen.
[46:58] You don't want to believe yes this he kind of feels like it's
[47:02] a similar performance where he's so involved in it, but he's just
[47:05] part of it doesn't stand out. He just seeps into it all when
[47:09] he leaves after the shooting he's coming out the books, but
[47:11] all the different kind of ways that it's explained when he's
[47:13] running down the stairs and it's not worried that it's just
[47:15] everything's believable. It is everything makes sense no
[47:18] matter what way you look at it. We way Oldman plays every single
[47:22] angle of everyone's opinion on Oswald.
[47:24] It all makes sense. You know, when ferries talking
[47:26] about the whole we're going to kill Kennedy and this is going
[47:28] to be the whole but in front the Cubans, this is how we're going
[47:31] to do it. This is the whole plan.
[47:32] And it just pushes in on Alderman and he's just sitting
[47:35] there and you just see that he just completely disagrees with
[47:37] everything that's being said, but he's excited about it at the
[47:40] same time. Yeah.
[47:41] So if you're directing someone and they say the camera is going
[47:44] to push in on you, you don't agree with this, but you're
[47:46] excited about it. What we dialogue.
[47:49] None. None.
[47:52] How long I forgot in the scene? 8 seconds. 8 seconds, 9 seconds,
[47:56] Right. OK, yeah, yeah, I can do that.
[47:58] And it's just glorious and absolute joy to watch.
[48:02] I know you went up there all of a stone.
[48:04] And he still had things to say. He still had things to do.
[48:06] I think that finished in the whole kind of Oswald scenes that
[48:10] he had to do. When he said I've got I've got
[48:11] more say as Harvey or what? Can you just point the camera at
[48:14] us? So Stone just humored and
[48:15] pointed the camera and they apparently gave him a 16 minute
[48:18] monologue straight into the camera as Lee Harvey Oswald just
[48:21] getting everything off his chest that he'd researched everything
[48:23] that he wanted to do, everything he wanted to get down.
[48:26] So all of a sudden said that exists somewhere.
[48:27] That's 16 minutes of footage killed his.
[48:30] He, to be honest, absolutely amazing.
[48:32] He said none of it went. The film didn't need it.
[48:34] So it was a completely different kettle of fish.
[48:37] But he needed it off his chest because he said I can't, I need
[48:39] closure on this character. I can't move on. 16 minutes just
[48:43] rattled it off as the character and Stone said he was absolutely
[48:46] breath taken by that's how much Oldman puts into this and that's
[48:49] how much we get out of it. It's such an incredible
[48:51] performance. It's probably would be out of
[48:53] sync with the rest of the film, but can imagine that and the
[48:56] monologue at the end and X's monologue in this film.
[48:59] It could have been like this could have predated the whole
[49:02] Marvel thing. Just have that as like a post
[49:04] credit, yeah. Yeah.
[49:05] It's a shot in 16 mil and it just.
[49:07] Kind of. Yeah, he's just turned to the
[49:10] camera. It goes for every year in there.
[49:11] Another 16 minutes. The turnover on that screen
[49:14] would have been a fucking nightmare.
[49:16] Get that cleaned. How long we've got?
[49:18] 3 minutes. Stone cast Old Man after seeing
[49:24] him in Sid and Nancy. He said he saw the dark side of
[49:27] his range and wanted that for Oswald.
[49:30] Obviously he brings that. But before he was cast, Frank
[49:32] Whaley said that Stone had promised him the part of Oswald
[49:35] because they'd work together on The Doors, and apparently he
[49:38] only found out he didn't get the part when he read about it in a
[49:40] free movie magazine when he went to the cinema.
[49:42] Oh blessed man. Yeah, he said.
[49:47] I was just heartbroken because I was really anxious to play that
[49:50] role and to work with Oliver again.
[49:51] And Stonewood later apologized to Whaley and cast him as Oswald
[49:55] impersonator in the film. Yeah.
[49:57] The. From the top man.
[49:58] Yes, he is grossing that as well.
[50:00] Yeah, it's fantastic. Two years later, he did get to
[50:03] play Lee Harvey Oswald in the TV movie Fatal Deception.
[50:06] Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, I'm sure you know.
[50:09] I'm sure you're aware of it. Yeah, you got to post it.
[50:12] That's on the next poll coming up.
[50:14] Feature That sounds like a Mel Brooks film.
[50:20] Within a Mel Brooks film, Yeah, and the script as well didn't
[50:24] include much about Lee Harvey Oswald at all.
[50:26] Instead, all of us don't give old man a fistful of plane
[50:29] tickets and a contacts list and told him to go away and do his
[50:32] own research. I mean, for how intricate Stone
[50:36] is and how on the ball he is. This is the guy who apparently
[50:39] killed Kennedy. Yeah, slop.
[50:41] Go and sort it out. Let's.
[50:42] Go where you want to. Sort that one out.
[50:45] Don't know mate, just here's a plane ticket.
[50:46] Just, you know, fuck off and find out I've got.
[50:47] A lot on me. Got a lot on.
[50:55] Beat the Pozniak players Oswald's wife Marina.
[50:58] She prepared for the role by moving in with the real Marina
[51:01] for a. Couple of months.
[51:02] That's too intrusive. Also got permission to just turn
[51:06] up on the morning. Allman spent time with Marina as
[51:11] well, and he and Pozniak improvised their dialogue
[51:13] together based on conversations with people who knew the real
[51:16] Oswald. So not much to go on really for
[51:20] Gary. Osman not at all, which is why
[51:22] you had like another 20 minutes ago off his chest.
[51:25] So 3 incredibly memorable performances from the three lead
[51:29] actors, Lee Jones and Allman's characters nefariously crank
[51:32] away in the background. Power and Garrison's goodwill
[51:35] crusade against what's right and what's wrong.
[51:44] All right, movies, we'll be right back.
[51:46] Thank you for supporting us by listening to the sponsors for
[51:49] this episode. Thank you for listening to our
[51:53] sponsors. And now it's back to the show.
[51:59] The middle. The second Axis Garrison and his
[52:04] cronies pulling together a convincing case as they notice
[52:07] holes the size of bullets in the war and reports findings.
[52:10] And Matthew are starting us off in the place where it all
[52:13] started. I certainly am because the build
[52:15] up to this, I love all these like shoe leather sequences
[52:18] where Garrison and his team are interviewing.
[52:20] The eyewitnesses love it because they saw many of them.
[52:22] This isn't a case where there's maybe one or two people saw
[52:25] something suspicious. The witnesses are everywhere.
[52:29] You've got all the men who saw people running from the parking
[52:31] lot. You've got the hey, Mr.
[52:33] President, woman down on the street.
[52:35] You heard the shot and saw the gun flash from the grassy Knoll.
[52:38] You've got the woman who saw Jack Ruby looking suspicious in
[52:40] a truck, and then her statement was changed inside by someone
[52:44] who wasn't her. And they're just also
[52:46] respectable compared to Willie O'Keefe if, you know, just
[52:49] wouldn't stand up in court. And this is where everything
[52:52] starts to open up. This is Stone, one by one, just
[52:55] knocking down every single domino.
[52:57] And it's relentless because he's paving the way for his ultimate
[53:00] argument at the end where he's going to pay everything off.
[53:03] And then Speaking of payoffs, we've already had the scene with
[53:06] Senator Long where he saw in the seeds of doubt about the
[53:09] likelihood of Oswald being good enough to be the shooter.
[53:12] And then you get the payoff to that with Garrison and Lou in
[53:15] the Book Depository going through all the reasons this
[53:18] doesn't make sense. And it's so different to
[53:21] something like All the President's Men, which this gets
[53:23] compared to a lot, obviously. Because to follow that film,
[53:26] that conspiracy, I feel like I've got to have Wikipedia open
[53:30] to follow along with it like. Who's?
[53:31] Porter again. What did he do?
[53:35] Everything is laid out so simply.
[53:37] This is Stone saying, look, see how obvious it is that something
[53:41] isn't right? Why didn't Oswald take the shot
[53:44] when Kennedy was coming straight down the street?
[53:46] Yes, before I took the turn. When you see Lou try to mimic
[53:49] the shooting pattern and you see just how long it takes just to
[53:51] reload that rifle, and he says, and I'm not even aiming and he
[53:55] can't even get the three shots off the tree is important
[53:59] because it doesn't shed the sleeves.
[54:00] He's shooting through the tree and you're just left by the end
[54:03] of the same thing. And how has anyone swallowed the
[54:05] official story at this point? It's so compelling and it's so
[54:09] convincing. I mean that sequence is just so
[54:13] dense. So satisfying though, as well as
[54:17] significantly that makes sense. Yeah, you will go.
[54:20] Because you are, you are on board all of these witnesses,
[54:24] they're saying all the right things.
[54:26] It's because he's shown you it one exactly that you're saying
[54:29] it. You go, well that must be fat,
[54:31] that must be fat. The way that he mixes that
[54:33] together, it's fantastic. And after this sequence, there's
[54:36] a stretch at Garrison's home, which is absolutely spellbinding
[54:40] as Susie Cox convinces Garrison and everyone watching that
[54:43] Oswald was framed. And, you know, we've talked
[54:46] about the cast, memorable performances in the film.
[54:49] They're all over the place. But Laurie Metcalf here as Susie
[54:52] is about as good as you can get in this film.
[54:55] She's brilliant. She's amazing in that scene in
[54:57] the restaurant earlier. But in this scene, she's not
[55:02] overshadowed by this daunting cast of legends.
[55:05] ATV stalwart of Roseanne? Absolutely not sit down at the
[55:09] park. Yeah, and Uncle Bulk, obviously.
[55:12] Yeah, uncle as well. Yeah, Candy.
[55:14] Great. And that, yeah.
[55:15] And it's her delivery and her conviction and what she's saying
[55:18] that makes this whole stretch soul compelling.
[55:21] Yeah, not just the actors as well.
[55:22] It's men that you're surrounded by.
[55:24] Yeah, exactly. Yeah, not daunted by that.
[55:26] Real strength to me, yeah. She's such an appealing presence
[55:29] on screen, another convincing character who presents a myriad
[55:33] of all blapping stories, but makes it very clear and very
[55:36] believable. This, again, is Stone making the
[55:39] seemingly overtly complex story just so easy to digest and
[55:43] breakdown with incredible performances, wonderful dialogue
[55:46] into woven scenes of flashback involving Oswald being set up as
[55:49] a Patsy and bringing the Cuban refugees and Guy Bannister back
[55:52] into the narrative. Yeah, the whole sequence is
[55:56] slick, exciting, scored with ferocity by John Williams,
[56:00] directed to within an inch of its life, and ends on a big
[56:04] revelation. Grab your hose and your socks
[56:06] and pull. Clay Bertrand is Clay Shaw.
[56:09] Yeah. Brilliant.
[56:10] Amazing. And it's even got time for a
[56:12] little gag Garrison ass if everybody wants to quit and
[56:15] everyone puts their hand down. See soda bugs?
[56:21] Watch that sequence. He's like, right, I'm 8 and
[56:23] Brockovich now. Where Knight is also in this
[56:29] scene, he plays Numa Bertel, one of Garrison's foot soldiers.
[56:34] You'll likely know him as Dennis Nedry in Jurassic Park.
[56:37] Yeah, and in his audition he affected a Georgian accent,
[56:40] which Stone loved, but after he met the real Bertel, who had a
[56:43] New Orleans accent, he changed it up.
[56:45] Stone hated that and had to be convinced by night to use an
[56:48] accurate accent. Apparently it was a heated
[56:50] argument from Ford. Got result and Knights head of
[56:52] Stone. He's a rough trade, that man.
[56:56] Yeah, I could believe it. Oliver Stone after that.
[56:59] Yeah, so talking about Clay and this is the scene.
[57:02] Easter Sunday. Yeah.
[57:04] He doesn't know it's a holiday he's in.
[57:07] Trouble. He's in trouble going to hand
[57:09] tons with the kids like we do every year.
[57:11] It clearly gets a little bit like I've seen this a million
[57:13] times. I don't know if that's since or
[57:15] before because the kind of the timelines from 91, I don't know,
[57:18] watches when it came out, so mid 20s something.
[57:22] And has this been done on the back of this is always the case.
[57:25] It's like the guy who's so far into the case that he forgets
[57:28] about his family and the kids. But the way this is different.
[57:30] I mean, even the babies acting as good in this way because she
[57:34] goes says that we're now dated, it's not important, something
[57:39] along those lines and go out neither away.
[57:41] And then the baby goes as if like reacting to the fact that
[57:45] they're not important. Every time she references the
[57:47] family, the baby cries and he's trying to argue like with the
[57:50] baby. It's just unbelievable and he's
[57:51] like, I'll catch up with you later and then we'll bring
[57:53] clean. Just these demeanor is just
[57:55] slimy, slippery, horrible. He's got one of them, little by
[58:00] roles that he smokes his tab through, disgusted.
[58:03] He's just that all the way through.
[58:04] Yeah, and he's just the way that he just like Lynch.
[58:07] Yeah. It's like, it's like an
[58:10] extension of his horrible personality.
[58:12] It's just absolutely horrible the way he uses that for his
[58:15] character as well. And we get this great confidence
[58:19] from Garrison, and he knows he's got him licked here.
[58:22] Well, no, I've got you. And what about this gentleman?
[58:25] And what about this general? What about Ferry?
[58:27] What about Oswald? What about O'Keefe?
[58:29] And when he mentions O'Keefe, if you watch this again, the edit
[58:32] in here and the sound design is amazing because he mentions
[58:35] O'Keefe and you hear the doorbell and we'll wait another
[58:38] four or five beats. Yeah.
[58:39] And he's thinking where to run home from.
[58:41] And then you'll get the flashback of the door open.
[58:43] Incredible. It's so good and just like, so
[58:46] clever as like he's remember it. You're in his brain.
[58:49] You're in his brain. And Lee Jones is absolutely
[58:51] amazing when he's just been talking about the meeting and
[58:54] the talk about being sat at the table and he's on one side, he's
[58:57] on the other side. I wouldn't be shouting, you
[58:58] know, so certainly I would just saw him Coof and he goes and
[59:01] that is the point of a long table.
[59:04] It's just, it's kind of like, you know, DiCaprio times in
[59:09] Django. It's that.
[59:11] Real kind of sneeze to it and there's always something like
[59:14] the. Gentleman.
[59:15] Yeah, but like, bullshit, you can tell.
[59:18] Yeah, nailed that dude. And I can't believe when you get
[59:28] Ferry coming in, you get O'Keefe there, you get another gentleman
[59:31] and it turns into like the probably what the strangest
[59:36] Barry Lyndon spoof. Mixed with Goldfinger.
[59:41] Mixed with Goldfinger and apparently paying themselves
[59:44] gold was Tommy Lee Jones idea. He was like up for it.
[59:49] I can do this, this is amazing. And it's just so weird, Pesci so
[59:53] weird and even O'Keefe they've seen him is like a weird
[59:56] character. Even he's on the back foot
[59:57] thinking these guys are next level and bizarre.
[1:00:00] It's like Caligula or something, isn't?
[1:00:03] It is going on. It's absolutely insane.
[1:00:06] It warps. He was the audience puts you on
[1:00:08] that back foot. And then when we cut back the
[1:00:09] gym, it's starting to rain outside.
[1:00:11] He's starting to lose it. He's starting to get washed
[1:00:13] away. All of the thought that he had,
[1:00:16] it's just starting to kind of manipulate his head.
[1:00:18] He's trying to think about, can this guy get away with it?
[1:00:20] How am I supposed to trap him? And this is probably the only
[1:00:22] time, I think, in the film where Jim loses.
[1:00:24] He's cool and goes for him and just says, you know I was
[1:00:27] appropriate and you just can't crack him.
[1:00:30] But he knows he has cracked him but can't prove it again.
[1:00:33] And that's all. Just wraps it up beautifully.
[1:00:35] And then you have Sissy SpaceX just sitting waiting with five
[1:00:37] kids in a restaurant. Nightmare.
[1:00:40] Too many. Nightmare, nightmare fuel that
[1:00:44] in the just they're getting jittery.
[1:00:45] I mean, the fact that she's I think she's just very forgiven
[1:00:48] when he comes back and she's kind of like a phone call.
[1:00:50] You know, you could have called ahead or you could let us know.
[1:00:52] Yeah, Easter Sunday. I would have taken his head off.
[1:00:55] That's ridiculous coming back that late.
[1:00:58] And then you get again the argument and it's ramped up and
[1:01:01] I think a lot of the Garrison home life I could maybe have
[1:01:04] done without. I get it.
[1:01:06] I. Don't know if that's I
[1:01:07] understand. And I think Sissy's pace says
[1:01:09] wonderful in it, but I honestly think it leaves me wanting a
[1:01:13] little bit. The kids are good, it's fine,
[1:01:15] but it doesn't really show his relationship with him.
[1:01:17] It comes around at the end and it kind of resolves itself.
[1:01:19] And I think this moment especially is the one where, you
[1:01:22] know, she delivers that line where you care more about
[1:01:24] Kennedy than your own family. And he said it's just going to
[1:01:27] get worse. And he knew, know where he
[1:01:29] stands is and you know what he believes in.
[1:01:31] And I think that's just a little bit too heavy-handed for me, I
[1:01:34] think. Yeah.
[1:01:35] I know what you're saying. It doesn't.
[1:01:36] I'm not too bothered about it because it doesn't dwell too
[1:01:38] much. There's maybe two or three
[1:01:40] scenes of it. Yeah, there is.
[1:01:41] Yeah. So things are moving in the
[1:01:43] political world, but Garrison's home life is getting
[1:01:46] increasingly strained. It is haven't had his feathers
[1:01:52] ruffled. Clay Shaw leaks to the press,
[1:01:54] bringing Garrison's investigation into public
[1:01:56] consciousness, resulting in David Ferrie becoming very
[1:02:01] jittery, and I couldn't love this performance anymore.
[1:02:06] Pesci chewing the scenery like nobody's business.
[1:02:09] Chandler and Tommy DeVito and Jimmy Conway from Goodfellas
[1:02:12] when he's kicking right off over the phone, spitting curse words
[1:02:15] and smacking the phone against the receiver.
[1:02:18] And then he makes it into the office, and what follows is a
[1:02:21] fake hairpiece to the force of nervous energy.
[1:02:26] Like a duck's ass, isn't it? With a pot of hot coffee and a
[1:02:33] few packs of luckies, he lays down his rambling mess of a
[1:02:37] confession, which I don't think anyone can make sense of.
[1:02:40] Sure was trying to stitch him up.
[1:02:41] He knew Oswald from back in the day.
[1:02:43] There's an incredible moment where there's a knock at the
[1:02:45] door and very pretty much runs in the other direction, frantic,
[1:02:50] and the camera matches him. It spins around almost out of
[1:02:52] control toward the door. It's beautiful, out of control
[1:02:56] synchronicity. It's incredible.
[1:02:57] Yeah, organized chaos. Isn't it?
[1:02:59] Oh, it's amazing. Yeah, he's chaining cigarettes.
[1:03:02] He's going on to talk about Jack Ruby being a pimp, a bag man for
[1:03:05] the Dallas mob who used to run guns for Castro, suggesting that
[1:03:08] they check out Operation Mongoose, whatever the hell that
[1:03:11] is. Government stuff, you know?
[1:03:12] Yeah, but who the fuck pulls the chain?
[1:03:14] And who the fuck knows? Incredible.
[1:03:17] A crescendo into a swarm of paranoia, and Garrison is
[1:03:20] visibly frightened by what he's witnessing here.
[1:03:24] And this is where the syrup of figs comes into play.
[1:03:26] That wig me well of dialogue and this scene is so loud it is all
[1:03:34] over the place. But I do think it's a stylistic
[1:03:37] choice by Stone and not a continuity error.
[1:03:39] No, absolutely, definitely, definitely, definitely a choice,
[1:03:41] 100%. It's a choice.
[1:03:44] It's a choice, it's a lovely piece.
[1:03:46] It's a nice piece. It heightens Ferries mania.
[1:03:52] I do find it interesting that there are absolutely no
[1:03:54] flashbacks in this scene. No cutaways, no change of film
[1:03:58] stock or camera. Pesci's so good here that Stone
[1:04:01] doesn't need to show who he's talking about.
[1:04:03] No. Unlike in the film, the real
[1:04:04] David Furry never had been to being mixed up in the
[1:04:06] assassination conspiracy. And Pesci's line, which I think
[1:04:09] is probably one of the most famous and most quoted from the
[1:04:11] film. It's a mystery wrapped in a
[1:04:13] Riddle inside an enigma. Amazing.
[1:04:15] Was inspired by a speech by Winston Churchill in 1939 where
[1:04:19] he said I could not forecast to you the action of Russia.
[1:04:22] It is a Riddle wrapped in a mystery inside of the enigma.
[1:04:25] Yeah, I mean, it's larger than life, that line, and it really
[1:04:27] fits this scene, Yeah, because it's huge.
[1:04:30] But then after all this pandemonium fairly quietens down
[1:04:34] and it's it's really heartbreaking to hear and
[1:04:36] breakdown about all he wanted to do was be a Catholic priest and
[1:04:39] to serve God. How can he go from one end of
[1:04:42] the scale to the other is mesmerizing.
[1:04:44] And I think you've got to have that mania to make the emotion
[1:04:47] hit that much harder. Yeah.
[1:04:50] And then would go from his anxiety, he's panic to Ferry
[1:04:55] being found dead, which is, you know, after another great scene
[1:04:58] where the tensions ramped up when they're saying the
[1:05:01] Garrison, you know, we need we need to protect them.
[1:05:02] This is the guy. This is the most believable
[1:05:05] angle that we've got for this whole thing.
[1:05:07] And then they find the place bugged, there's somebody inside,
[1:05:10] they don't know who it is, and they'll have to be even more
[1:05:11] careful. But Garrison, again, just
[1:05:13] doesn't buy into this conspiracy around everything.
[1:05:16] You just need wants everything straight down the line and makes
[1:05:19] a joke and you get that great background shot where it just
[1:05:22] kind of turns around and you're fairies dead.
[1:05:24] Is that great? But then there's that for Borden
[1:05:28] score these close-ups of the apartment and they've just
[1:05:32] beautifully framed. This is just, this reminds me of
[1:05:34] like 7 on a Steadicam. It's just really well done.
[1:05:38] You get all of these close-ups and then the close-ups go black
[1:05:40] and white and then the goal color again.
[1:05:42] And then they go black, white. And then that Steadicam shot
[1:05:45] that goes through the whole apartment, it just lands on
[1:05:48] Ferry dead and you're shocked because the wigs, not the
[1:05:51] eyebrows aren't there and he's just that's a corpse, right?
[1:05:54] It's like it's Joe Petry actually dead.
[1:05:56] This is the length that stones gone to.
[1:05:59] That's how it feels, and it's really I.
[1:06:01] Wouldn't put it past him. Good grief.
[1:06:06] That's what I get from just that.
[1:06:08] Again, that authenticity. You can kind of smell the place.
[1:06:10] And then when he's going around, you don't really want to touch
[1:06:12] anything. And there's all this evidence
[1:06:14] that's dotted around. And what I get from this, it's
[1:06:17] just a really powerful scene and really well played because
[1:06:20] there's so many distractions here for Garrison.
[1:06:22] There's the bad news from Miami. There's Bill reading out the
[1:06:25] suicide notes. There's two different suicide
[1:06:27] notes that haven't been signed. What about this and what about
[1:06:29] this? And he's still just interested
[1:06:32] on, is this a suicide? What happened?
[1:06:35] Tell us about it. And he wants to go with the
[1:06:36] friends, and he wants to Get the facts.
[1:06:38] And he's not bothered about all these are the distractions that
[1:06:40] are going on around the whole scene.
[1:06:41] And it's brilliant. And then you get flashbacks of
[1:06:44] the actual assault. The black and whites are just
[1:06:47] intercut with this. But you don't really know if
[1:06:49] that's the truth or not, or whether that's what Jim's
[1:06:51] imagined in his head, because he wants that to be the truth.
[1:06:54] Was it a natural causes? Was it suicide?
[1:06:57] Amazing. Again, all of our stone just
[1:06:58] firing cannons when he should be firing water pistols.
[1:07:01] It's unbelievable. For he did die just after news
[1:07:04] broke of Garrison's investigation into the press.
[1:07:07] Prior to this, he did say that he feared he would be killed,
[1:07:11] but it was ruled that his death was suicide, something which the
[1:07:13] real Garrison agreed with, but then On the contrary also said
[1:07:17] that murder couldn't be ruled out.
[1:07:20] Somebody make a decision on something, for God's sake.
[1:07:24] The real furry claimed that he never knew Oswald and this was
[1:07:27] the accepted view and it'll afford all resurfaced in 1993 of
[1:07:31] him and Oswald in the same Civil Air Patrol unit in the 50s.
[1:07:35] All right. As his character mentions in the
[1:07:38] previous scene in this film, but that wasn't proven until two
[1:07:40] years after the release of the film.
[1:07:42] Ah, right. Was Oswald painted gold?
[1:07:48] OK, Wesley, we're just going to sit back and relax and enjoy
[1:07:51] Matt talking about a scene which pretty sure you were born to
[1:07:55] talk about, Matt. Yeah, I want this to be 16
[1:07:57] minutes in length exactly. I'm going to get it to the
[1:08:01] second. Yeah, of course you want me,
[1:08:04] Matt X Bartley. A big X big big.
[1:08:08] Bartley Yeah, check that episode out.
[1:08:13] I mean, this, I mean, this scenes everyone's favorite
[1:08:15] scene, isn't it? Surely Donald Sutherland just
[1:08:18] turning up and stealing the entire film like it's no big
[1:08:22] deal. I mean, it starts off that
[1:08:24] beautiful frame and if Garrison and the statue of Lincoln behind
[1:08:27] him. So we know this is a big deal.
[1:08:29] And then Sutherland turned up that amazing raincoat and hat
[1:08:32] just looks incredible. And this scene, I mean, it's
[1:08:35] something else entirely. Because for start, it's pretty
[1:08:37] much nothing but exposition. And in most films, exposition is
[1:08:40] always the rubbish part. It's the point you don't like,
[1:08:43] it's the point you criticize. In JFK, the exposition is the
[1:08:46] best thing. It is, yeah.
[1:08:47] Somehow, Stone makes it the most compelling and exciting part of
[1:08:51] the film, and it's so enthralling to see every fresh
[1:08:55] layer of evidence in conspiracy revealed for Garrison here.
[1:08:59] And by this point, he is absolutely all in.
[1:09:01] I mean, he does not question the single thing that X lays out of
[1:09:05] him going all the way back to the beginning, to the V.
[1:09:07] And I'm on what they did in World War 2 and how this ties
[1:09:09] in. I mean, I've just got this image
[1:09:12] of Stone right in the scene at 4:00 in the morning, fueled by
[1:09:15] caffeine and God knows what else going on.
[1:09:16] And do you know what what else happened?
[1:09:18] Listen, listen, listen, listen as well.
[1:09:20] All this, all this goes in here, and this is the scene where
[1:09:23] Stone just commits to it and he doesn't care what anyone thinks.
[1:09:26] Like, I'm going to have this scene where someone explains the
[1:09:29] Gauss and how deep this conspiracy goes, and it's going
[1:09:31] to be 16 minutes long and no one's going to tell me
[1:09:33] otherwise. Just an absolute madman on top
[1:09:36] of this form. But it is hypnotic stuff.
[1:09:39] Watson, Sutherland, deliver this speech.
[1:09:40] I mean, he is magnificent in this.
[1:09:42] Yeah, when he says you're close, you're closer than you think,
[1:09:46] you practically, like, fall off your seat because he's edging
[1:09:48] towards you. See.
[1:09:49] Like tell me more, tell me more. What you mean?
[1:09:54] It's like Deep Throat in all the president's manners.
[1:09:56] It is, oh it is, but turned up to 11 and there's no action.
[1:09:59] It's just talking in exposition and obviously Sutherland
[1:10:03] deserves all the prayers in the wealth this but just watch
[1:10:04] Costner because he can see Garrison.
[1:10:06] He's like sinking. He's becoming more despondent as
[1:10:08] he realizes the sheer fast forces up against the.
[1:10:12] Yeah, yeah. And to hear extras demolish the
[1:10:15] case. You know the background, Oswald,
[1:10:17] that was ready to go very quickly.
[1:10:19] Why did they take the bubble top off the car?
[1:10:21] Why were all those building windows left open?
[1:10:23] Why weren't the men on the streets?
[1:10:25] Why did Washington telephones go out for an hour?
[1:10:27] It's like the Book Depository scene amped up to 11.
[1:10:30] If making it stunningly obvious that the whole thing was to set
[1:10:32] up. And that awesome way he holds 3
[1:10:34] fingers up. Why was Candy killed?
[1:10:35] Who benefited? Who had the power to cover it
[1:10:37] up? I've never seen someone like
[1:10:39] Called do like 123 like that before and it makes it so
[1:10:42] memorable. But then it kind of makes me
[1:10:44] laugh because there's this pause and everything is sinking in for
[1:10:46] Garrison, and then X leans forward and he just goes in
[1:10:50] 1961. What?
[1:10:51] There's more like he's only been talking for 8 minutes and
[1:10:55] there's more to come. It goes on for another 8 minutes
[1:10:58] and then he descends it. I just hope you get a break and
[1:11:00] then walks off. You decide to see?
[1:11:03] Yeah. Thanks.
[1:11:04] What do I do now? Just it's, it's amazing, this
[1:11:08] scene. Yeah, Sutherland's delivery,
[1:11:10] yeah. Oh, he's absolutely incredible.
[1:11:14] Yeah. It's incredibly Moorish, it's a
[1:11:16] delicious performance. It's just, yeah, it's so good.
[1:11:20] X is based on a couple of people.
[1:11:21] Firstly Richard Case Nagle ACIA agent, who said that he knew
[1:11:26] Kennedy was going to be killed before it happened.
[1:11:28] But more specifically X was based on a Colonel in the Air
[1:11:30] Force and Chief of Staff under JFK, Leroy Fletcher Prouty.
[1:11:35] He later became critical of the CIA, claiming they were part of
[1:11:37] a secret world elite. You know, I mean, if you talk
[1:11:41] like Sutherland does in the film, I believe anything he
[1:11:43] says. Well, exactly.
[1:11:44] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, proudly acted as a
[1:11:46] technical advisor in the film, obviously.
[1:11:50] Get Is he a crackpot? Get him.
[1:11:52] He sounds great, Stone said. His first meeting with Proudly
[1:11:56] was one of the most extraordinary afternoons I've
[1:11:58] ever spent. Pretty much like in the movie,
[1:12:00] he just started to talk. Yes, singing like a Canary.
[1:12:03] Yeah, I mean, I can do that talk about bullshit for 16 minutes
[1:12:08] and make it sound feasible. It's all I've done in the last
[1:12:11] 100 episodes. In The Conspiracy, that X layers
[1:12:16] out alludes to a text published in 1967, which was called The
[1:12:20] Report from Iron Mountain, but it's author, Leonard C Lewin,
[1:12:23] revealed the whole thing was a hoax in 1972.
[1:12:26] Yeah, another thing which just muddies the waters of
[1:12:29] credibility. Going to ignore that.
[1:12:32] Yeah, yeah, keep. It the way, Yeah, the way to
[1:12:34] clear muddy water is to just leave it alone.
[1:12:37] It's stones just stamping. Another wellies, honestly.
[1:12:42] Originally, Stone had Marlon Brando in mind for the role of
[1:12:46] X. Wow, wow.
[1:12:47] Something that would have Julie torpedoed the film if his antics
[1:12:51] on Apocalypse 12 years earlier or any sign.
[1:12:54] Yeah, costing us hold never than up for him to read off a board.
[1:12:57] Yeah, they would have put it on the statue, wouldn't they?
[1:12:59] Support on the statue just reading the top of the bottom.
[1:13:04] Stone said that Brandon would have made the film 15 times
[1:13:07] longer. Definitely would have.
[1:13:11] It would have been amazing though.
[1:13:12] Yeah, it would have been, but I mean, Sutherland, incredible
[1:13:16] stuff, yeah. Unbelievable.
[1:13:18] And it brings us to our very first question from a patron of
[1:13:22] all the right movies that is Phil Dolby.
[1:13:24] Hello, Phil. Hello, Phil.
[1:13:25] Hi. Phil, if you are a Patreon
[1:13:28] supporter of us, you get the opportunity to ask us a question
[1:13:31] and Phil's is Donald Sutherland's Deep Throat blows
[1:13:35] the film wide open and is genuinely frightening.
[1:13:37] If Donald Sutherland had not been capable, who would you have
[1:13:40] given an equally impactful performance in that role right
[1:13:44] now? Two performers that would have
[1:13:46] worked out for me here. OK, firstly, and I'll be stunned
[1:13:49] if neither of you have chosen this guy.
[1:13:50] OK, The legend that was and always will be Gene Hackman.
[1:13:55] Yeah. Nice.
[1:13:56] A combination of his iconic voice and impose and stature
[1:13:59] would have just worked wonders for X and this whole speech, I
[1:14:02] think. Yeah.
[1:14:02] I mean, I wouldn't switch Sutherland out.
[1:14:04] Oh, no, no. But if I had to, yeah, man's
[1:14:07] waiting in the wings. Just like LBJ.
[1:14:08] He's waiting in the wings. Yeah, going to be sworn in.
[1:14:14] And secondly, I think James L Jones would have fit the bill.
[1:14:18] Very nice. Yeah, Again, it's the voice,
[1:14:21] which just would have provided an immediate sense of authority
[1:14:24] and trust in that character. Yeah.
[1:14:26] You know, there are more, but I don't want to step in any toes.
[1:14:28] So Westie 5 picks from you go. Yeah, 4.
[1:14:31] Four, Yeah. Just going off the opening voice
[1:14:36] over, I think would have been good to have Martin Sheen in
[1:14:38] there. Brilliant.
[1:14:39] Just to match the voice over, to think, is that him talking at
[1:14:42] the start? Just another layer a little bit.
[1:14:44] Yeah, good, I think. And I was.
[1:14:45] Just thinking around 91, like who was good in 91, who was, who
[1:14:49] was kicking it, who was giving it, you know, some really good
[1:14:51] performances. And I would have Nick Nolte
[1:14:53] probably in there. Oh, who was he was nominated for
[1:14:57] Prince of Tides, right? 91 I think.
[1:14:59] Yeah. Fucking excellent.
[1:15:01] At that point, he's superb. And I think he would have
[1:15:03] really, yeah, brought some weight to that.
[1:15:07] Scott Glenn, I think at that time.
[1:15:08] Yeah. Would have been really good
[1:15:10] because he's got that look and you kind of know him but don't
[1:15:13] know where from. And he was amazing.
[1:15:15] The Backdraft in 91. He was fantastic in that film
[1:15:18] and one that I would kind of maybe have a little bit of a,
[1:15:22] just for my personal taste. Sean Connery.
[1:15:27] All right. Just so we can recreate that
[1:15:29] scene in the Unjustables where he talks them in the church.
[1:15:33] All right, That would be absolutely wonderful.
[1:15:34] But common not changing his accent.
[1:15:36] Yes. Yeah.
[1:15:36] Don't know where he's from. Yeah.
[1:15:39] He's like, is he Scottish? Don't know.
[1:15:40] It's it'd be an amazing. And then?
[1:15:44] 1961, you're close. Yeah, real.
[1:15:48] You don't know how close. Brilliant.
[1:15:51] But yeah, that's my fault. Excellent.
[1:15:55] And Matt, have we stepped on your toes at all?
[1:15:57] Amazingly, not at all. We've all been very different.
[1:16:00] Stunned. 2 came to mind very quickly, but I think they're
[1:16:03] just two on the nose for reasons you'll understand when I say
[1:16:06] them. Hal Holbrook would have been
[1:16:08] great, but again, two close to all persons man and for the same
[1:16:12] reasons. He would have been amazing but
[1:16:14] probably wouldn't have worked. Jason Roberts, he'd been
[1:16:18] incredible. So the one I would have gone for
[1:16:20] who wouldn't be too on the nose and I think just has that real
[1:16:23] kind of ability. Sutherland has to discipline the
[1:16:25] background a bit. Robert Duvall, I think, would
[1:16:28] have been excellent. Nice.
[1:16:30] Yeah, great, Nick. Great, Nick.
[1:16:33] Maybe not at this point, but. We'll see get him, you know,
[1:16:36] working out again kill go this place is why did the kill bull
[1:16:40] have given given this kind of dialogue in that style really
[1:16:43] bombastic in 1961. You know that smell?
[1:16:50] Smell in 1961? Phones.
[1:16:56] The phones were out. Well, you have anybody in the
[1:17:02] windows? Oh, excellent.
[1:17:11] No crossover and a great question.
[1:17:14] Thank you very much. Phil, thank.
[1:17:15] You, Phil, That was good fun. And that brings to an end an
[1:17:18] incredible stretch in the middle of the film, full of larger than
[1:17:21] life characters with even taller tales to tell.
[1:17:24] Yeah. The crew.
[1:17:31] One of the most talented crews of the decade, full of legendary
[1:17:34] figures. John Williams, the scorer, and
[1:17:36] Robert Richardson's visuals are coming up, but first it's the
[1:17:39] screenplay by Oliver Stone and Zachary Skylar.
[1:17:42] Yes, it is indeed. And part of Stones motivation
[1:17:44] for making JFK was in response to the Warren port.
[1:17:47] Much like Jim Garrison I guess, this was a Commission set up to
[1:17:50] establish the facts of Kennedys assassination, headed up by
[1:17:52] Chief Justice of the US Earl Warren.
[1:17:55] And the findings of the report were made public 10 months
[1:17:57] later, September 1964, concluding that Oswald acted as
[1:18:01] a lone gunman and took Jack Ruby's explanation that he
[1:18:04] executed Oswald so the Kennedy family didn't have to go through
[1:18:08] the pain of a trial. At face value, there were no
[1:18:10] other parties connected to these two murders at all.
[1:18:13] If you believe that, I'll tell you another one.
[1:18:17] Oliver Stone's suspicions grew from the 70s onwards into the
[1:18:19] 80s in the wake of lies the US government taught regarding
[1:18:23] Vietnam, Watergate, Iran Contra, that kind of thing.
[1:18:26] It's widely documented that he served in Vietnam and
[1:18:29] revelations about the motivations for the war switched
[1:18:31] his right leaning views swiftly to the left.
[1:18:33] If the government could lie about that, then they can lie
[1:18:35] about anything. Yeah, and, Stone said.
[1:18:38] I believe the Warren Commission report is a great myth and in
[1:18:40] order to fight a myth maybe you have to create another one, a
[1:18:43] counter myth. Just lies there.
[1:18:45] Yeah, yeah. There's the flashback within the
[1:18:47] flashback, yeah. So about how do you feel about
[1:18:50] Stone and Skyler's writing on JFK?
[1:18:52] I think thorough is the word here I would use.
[1:18:56] Stone's a clever man. He knows he's going to get a lot
[1:18:59] of heat for going where this film goes.
[1:19:02] So this is where he has to cover his own back with the writing
[1:19:04] because he wants you to believe what he believes.
[1:19:06] And the only way to do that is to stuff the film with as much
[1:19:09] research as he possibly can do. I mean, the amount of names
[1:19:13] introduced to the amount of dates, the amount of Shia
[1:19:15] information at this point. Oswald did this.
[1:19:18] He went here, then he met this guy, then he was back in Cuba,
[1:19:21] and then the next day, Clear Shaw turned up and it's all got
[1:19:23] a link together. It's a constant barrage of facts
[1:19:25] to keep track of. And it's kind of miraculous that
[1:19:28] you do keep track of it. And the only way you do is
[1:19:30] because of how Stone and Skylar laid out for you.
[1:19:33] Like in their heads they see all these connections and to have
[1:19:36] the ability to put them down on the page and draw them all
[1:19:38] together and interweave every single name.
[1:19:41] Oswald, Jack, Ruby, Clay Shaw, the Cubans, the generals,
[1:19:45] Garrison implicated Lyndon Johnson in the murder.
[1:19:48] And it gets to the point where you go, well, I'm convinced like
[1:19:51] everything you said makes sense because you have done your
[1:19:54] research without a shadow of a doubt, obviously.
[1:19:56] You know more than me on this subject.
[1:19:58] Yeah, you know more than me, so I'm happy to go with you.
[1:20:01] The thing is, this could have easily been a documentary, but
[1:20:03] he wants to dramatise it and the best way he can dramatise it is
[1:20:06] essentially to make it a whodunit.
[1:20:08] And his ability to turn all these very dry facts and figures
[1:20:12] and names on the page in research and turn those into the
[1:20:15] most compelling who done it imaginable is pretty remarkable.
[1:20:19] Yeah, he turns it into Chinatown somehow.
[1:20:21] Yeah, it's very Chinatown. It's incredible.
[1:20:23] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's it must have
[1:20:25] been huge this to get this delivered and read through it.
[1:20:29] But for the cast that they assembled, it must have been
[1:20:31] incredible on the page because people have just went well, I
[1:20:34] don't even want paying for this. I'll do it.
[1:20:36] I've got 1 scene. I don't care.
[1:20:37] So it must have been really compelling from the get go.
[1:20:39] And I think that's all down to Stone's ambition and his
[1:20:44] beliefs. It doesn't waiver at all.
[1:20:47] And I think that would have started with the first page of
[1:20:48] the screenplay. He knows exactly where he's
[1:20:50] going with it. He knows exactly the story that
[1:20:52] he wants to tell. You know, it's exactly the lies
[1:20:54] he wants to weave and he's got no shame in doing it because he
[1:20:58] feels like he's been lied to in this whole film.
[1:21:01] Feels like a massive finger up. It's a response to that.
[1:21:03] Isn't it is an absolute response to it.
[1:21:05] So if you can spin a web of lies, I'm going to spin one as
[1:21:07] well. But it's going to be 100 times
[1:21:09] more believable than 100 times more entertaining than what you
[1:21:12] did. The self belief he's got in his
[1:21:14] ability as a director, as a writer, as a storyteller, and as
[1:21:17] somebody who can really put all of these pieces together, not
[1:21:21] only make you think, not only make you feel, but also make you
[1:21:25] incredibly entertained for 3 1/2 hours.
[1:21:28] And it's just, it is an incredible feat, the whole
[1:21:30] thing. But I think it all just ties
[1:21:32] together to Stone having this belief, having this vision and
[1:21:34] going for it 100%. Yeah, pure conviction.
[1:21:37] Yeah, it's obviously a nut on the subject of JFK and no doubt
[1:21:41] has read countless books, part of a countless conspiracy
[1:21:44] theories and based on his public position, and, you know, he was
[1:21:47] in a unique position himself to be able to add to the conspiracy
[1:21:50] theories with one of his own. Usually I don't really care for
[1:21:55] like, wild swings where there is revisionism of the truth to make
[1:21:59] way for a juicy narrative. But you know, there were
[1:22:02] conspiracy theories abound well before this film.
[1:22:06] And this just taps into the thirst for more.
[1:22:08] It presents its information earnestly and concisely and
[1:22:10] presents what it thinks is the truth or partial truth or or
[1:22:14] wish fulfillment or whatever it is.
[1:22:16] It's all. Part of the big.
[1:22:17] JFK machine that keeps on churning out theory after theory
[1:22:20] after theory throughout the years and it's just a
[1:22:23] tantalizing story and when people don't have the facts they
[1:22:26] make shade up it's human nature of.
[1:22:28] Course they do. Almost everything that Storm
[1:22:30] presents has at least an element of untruth.
[1:22:34] Now, that's usually has at least an element of truth.
[1:22:37] But Nope all the way around. But when you don't have all the
[1:22:40] facts, why let the truth get in the way of good story?
[1:22:43] Yeah, journalist Vincent Bugliosi said in his book
[1:22:46] Reclaiming History, The Assassination of President John
[1:22:48] F Kennedy said that there were 32 untruths in this film.
[1:22:52] He said that the film was as A1 continuous line, which Stone
[1:22:55] couldn't find any level of deception and invention beyond
[1:22:58] which he was unwilling to go to. Right, 32 is not that bad.
[1:23:02] It's not. Really.
[1:23:06] Wow, when you're telling 32 lies and that's not bad in.
[1:23:10] This book I thought it would be 132 or something.
[1:23:15] For example, Matt, you mentioned it earlier, there's a large
[1:23:17] chunk of the film devoted to the notion that the time life fought
[1:23:20] of Oswald holding the gun was deducted.
[1:23:23] It's a theory which has been debunked, or at least debated
[1:23:26] and considered factually accurate.
[1:23:29] The film ties you up in knots. A lot of people, myself
[1:23:32] included, would have taken this film at face value.
[1:23:34] Believe in what is presented. What do you believe?
[1:23:39] And that's the beauty of the storytelling here.
[1:23:40] Even if you question, in the film's accuracy, at least, your
[1:23:43] question something which you'll naturally take away and question
[1:23:48] other aspects of the investigation.
[1:23:51] And what he does is stuff a film full of detail.
[1:23:53] I don't think we're supposed to remember all of it.
[1:23:55] How could you? But what he does is imprint on
[1:23:58] us an overwhelming sense of emotion that it's easy to be
[1:24:01] taken along for the ride. I think it's incredibly ballsy
[1:24:04] for anyone to make a film about this subject that's been taken
[1:24:07] over the hearts of the collective American public.
[1:24:10] It's probably the most infamous moment in the century and Stone
[1:24:13] just smashes in there with his wild riot.
[1:24:15] A conspiracy. And he was our age at the time.
[1:24:18] Would you fancy taking this on now?
[1:24:21] God, not really. It's hard enough.
[1:24:22] It's hard enough doing this, never mind making it.
[1:24:30] Agreed. Yeah, it is an amalgam of
[1:24:33] missing truths, of untruths, of composite characters and pure
[1:24:36] conjecture. So on through everything and the
[1:24:38] kitchen sink into the accusations raising the film,
[1:24:41] the CIA, the FBI, the mafia, U.S. military, Secret Service
[1:24:45] and the waiting in the wings Vice president LBJ all in the
[1:24:48] fire 9. Although Stone later claimed
[1:24:50] that the film never accuses Lynda B Johnson.
[1:24:53] And I do just love the sheet guts to put it all on screen.
[1:25:01] If you're not going to give us the truth, then I'm just going
[1:25:04] to make things very difficult for you.
[1:25:05] You want conspiracy theories? Well, stitch this.
[1:25:08] Yeah, he has 32. Yeah.
[1:25:10] Yeah. But he never purported that the
[1:25:14] film was based on truth. Months before he came out, he
[1:25:17] told New York Times. I've taken dramatic license.
[1:25:19] It's not a true story per SE. It is not the Jim Carrison
[1:25:22] story. It's a film called JFK.
[1:25:24] It explores all the possible scenarios of why Kennedy was
[1:25:26] killed, who killed him and why. So he's upfront with it.
[1:25:31] He didn't put any punches. Yeah, exactly.
[1:25:33] And the film is based on two texts, most notably the 1988
[1:25:37] book On the Trail of the Assassins by Jim Garrison, which
[1:25:41] detailed his investigation into the theory that New Orleans
[1:25:43] entrepreneur Clay Shaw was involved in a plot to kill JFK.
[1:25:47] And Shaw had worked with the CIA, who wanted to take Kennedy
[1:25:50] out because of his alleged plans to pull out of Vietnam and
[1:25:53] change American foreign policy. And it was also based on Jim
[1:25:56] Marr's book Crossfire, the plot that killed Kennedy, which was a
[1:26:00] compilation of, you know, a lot of crackpot theories, conspiracy
[1:26:04] theories, one of which involved Hitman and Woody Harrelson's
[1:26:07] father, Charles Harrison, being implicated in the conspiracy.
[1:26:10] Yeah. Yeah, he's meant to be one of
[1:26:12] the Trump's, wasn't he? The three Trump's that were
[1:26:14] picked up, he was identified, Yeah.
[1:26:16] Yeah, and that's been substantiated using forensic
[1:26:20] photographic evidence. Wow.
[1:26:21] But you know, from what? Which point of view?
[1:26:23] And who knows? That is not Yeah, yeah.
[1:26:26] Despite these two sources, Stone test a recent Yale graduate,
[1:26:29] Jane Roscone, to lead a team of researchers together all
[1:26:33] available information on the assassination while he was put
[1:26:35] in the finishing touches to Born on the 4th of July.
[1:26:38] I mean, he's reading books while he's making Born on the 4th of
[1:26:40] July put finisher touches to this.
[1:26:42] I mean, Born on the 4th of July is pretty intense film as well.
[1:26:45] And the doors in between that and.
[1:26:46] The doors in between, Yeah. Rosconi and her team went
[1:26:50] through around 200 books in total for the research.
[1:26:53] Yeah, and the other person who's got the call right, Zachary
[1:26:56] Skyler. He helped the real Jim Garrison
[1:26:59] write his book. He was instrumental in
[1:27:00] transforming it from a scholarly text to a detective story.
[1:27:04] Yeah, right. And he also edited Mars's book,
[1:27:07] so Stone snapped him up to write the first draft.
[1:27:09] Yeah, I think he would have maybe just been like, yeah,
[1:27:12] Oliver, you want to put the kitchen sink in?
[1:27:13] Can we make it maybe a smaller thing?
[1:27:16] We'll keep it in there. But.
[1:27:17] It's massive. Just a just a little bit smaller
[1:27:21] stone, a Skylar to distill the two source novels and Rasconi's
[1:27:25] research down to a great detective story.
[1:27:27] Skylar did his own research over a 12 month period and his
[1:27:30] initial draft was 550 pages, a behemoth which Stone beat into
[1:27:35] shape and got down with more palatable 156 pages.
[1:27:38] Wow, 500 and that's I mean, that's that's Dallas, Yeah, the
[1:27:43] whole. That's the wire, 1:00 to 5:00 if
[1:27:49] anyone doesn't know. Like screenplay logistics, one
[1:27:51] page is one minute screen time, so 550 minutes.
[1:27:56] It's a long time. I mean, I would have watched it.
[1:27:58] But you know how this is. I never get this.
[1:28:01] You know how these things work. If you're presenting me with a
[1:28:04] 550 page screenplay, then I'm going to throw it out because
[1:28:07] that's not a film. It's a phone book.
[1:28:10] Don't. Get it?
[1:28:10] It is. So during rewrites, Stone saw
[1:28:14] the film as playing out like a great detective story and said
[1:28:17] that while it was being written it fault and for what he calls
[1:28:20] DNA threads, the New Orleans DA investigation, the day of the
[1:28:24] shooting, Oswald on the day and his past activities and the
[1:28:27] character of X. Yeah, I love that X gets his own
[1:28:30] plot line. Skyler wrote the majority of the
[1:28:35] Garrison story, while Stone took the Oswald Daily Plaza and X
[1:28:39] plot lines. Right.
[1:28:40] And because of the complexities of the screenplay, Stone said
[1:28:43] that he simplified it to get Warner's to sign on the dotted
[1:28:45] line, but then ended up filming the complex version.
[1:28:49] Obviously. Sneaky Fogger.
[1:28:50] Yeah, yeah, Warner says. 45 pages.
[1:28:56] And with that, we have a very pointed question from a Patreon
[1:28:58] supporter of all the right movies, Andrea Bastian.
[1:29:01] How you doing Andrea? Hello, Andrea.
[1:29:03] Andrea says. I have to ask, who do you guys
[1:29:06] think killed Kennedy? You didn't have to ask Andrea
[1:29:10] Cat amongst the pigeons. Yeah, Andrea wants the name of
[1:29:15] the big enchilada, and we have just the man.
[1:29:17] This one's for you, Westie. This is your baby.
[1:29:20] Right. Well, I mean who could it be?
[1:29:21] Cubans, Russians, CIA, Lyndon Johnson, it could be anybody and
[1:29:25] I think that's the whole point. It's so believable for it to be
[1:29:28] anybody that the fingers pointed to.
[1:29:31] And I think that's what stones getting at is like the weaved
[1:29:34] all of these different webs to deceive the public and to
[1:29:37] deceive you as a citizen. So you don't know what happened
[1:29:40] to your president basically. So they can do anything.
[1:29:42] And it's it's about manipulation.
[1:29:44] The conspiracy in itself is probably more revealing or more
[1:29:48] exciting than knowing the truth. And I don't actually think
[1:29:51] people want to know the truth. I think people like chase and
[1:29:53] things and they like the excitement of the chase and I
[1:29:56] think that's what it was all about.
[1:29:57] But having said that, I do believe I.
[1:30:00] Love it. Yes, just cut all of that out.
[1:30:04] No, I don't call that out because, you know, I'm not, you
[1:30:06] know, talking about, but I do love conspiracy theories.
[1:30:08] I am a big, big fan of conspiracy theories.
[1:30:10] We'll get into that later on. But I do think the anger the
[1:30:12] military industrial establishment with the
[1:30:14] procurement policies and his determination to do withdraw
[1:30:18] from Vietnam and he threatened to break the CIA and I caught
[1:30:21] into 1000 pieces after the Bay of Pigs fiasco.
[1:30:24] So I think this was down to money.
[1:30:26] I think it was down to being involved in Vietnam.
[1:30:28] I think it was down through a lot of money for the defense
[1:30:30] sector and a lot of worry from the CIA thinking he's going to
[1:30:33] disband that. It was a coup, wasn't it?
[1:30:35] So I think the one of the out of office, they wanted somebody
[1:30:38] else in. They wanted to go into Vietnam.
[1:30:39] They wanted to create a lot of money.
[1:30:40] So that just wiped him out and got him out the picture.
[1:30:42] That's what I think. I love it.
[1:30:44] A coup d'etat. Coup d'etat Wonderful, if you
[1:30:47] will, but that's what I think. This film and this podcast has
[1:30:51] allowed me to say a coup d'etat without.
[1:30:53] Sounded like a pretentious prick.
[1:30:54] Obviously do. It was a coup d'etat.
[1:31:00] It's wonderful. Matt Big enchilada.
[1:31:03] Who do you think? Well, I agree with Wesley in the
[1:31:05] fact that you almost don't want to know the answer.
[1:31:07] I think if there was a definitive answer at the end
[1:31:09] this film, I think you'd be a bit disappointed.
[1:31:11] It would be disappointing. This is fanciful.
[1:31:14] We want, like, outrageous theories.
[1:31:16] Yeah. You want the frustration of not
[1:31:18] someone getting like, point in the finger.
[1:31:20] I'm going definitely there. For me, though, because I got in
[1:31:22] this film like quite young, 1819 did like read a few books.
[1:31:26] Not enough. I've tried to stick to books.
[1:31:27] I weren't like sensationalistic about it.
[1:31:29] I didn't believe everything. I think the most convincing one
[1:31:32] I've read is that Oswald was the shooter, but he was backed by
[1:31:36] the Cubans. I think there are a lot of
[1:31:39] established links between Oswald and Cuba pro Castro because he
[1:31:44] tried to invade on the Bay pigs and it was a revenge for that.
[1:31:46] I think where the CIA come into it is kind of what Wes he's
[1:31:50] getting out is that they maybe thought that this was going to
[1:31:52] happen and they just turned a blind eye to it.
[1:31:54] Right. OK, love it.
[1:31:56] That's what I think. Yeah, I think we're we're going
[1:31:58] to be pretty similar. And you know, the beauty of all
[1:32:00] of this is that because the nature of the wild schools of
[1:32:03] thought that anything that is proved as fact is brought into
[1:32:06] question. And any conspiracy theory, no
[1:32:08] matter how insane, can be considered truth.
[1:32:11] It's about who you speak to, who you buy into your political
[1:32:14] leanings, what you're inclined to believe.
[1:32:17] I think you start with a baseline of belief based on your
[1:32:19] general makeup and whatever piece of evidence taps into that
[1:32:22] you'll believe and what it fits. In.
[1:32:24] You'll just disregard. Yeah, exactly.
[1:32:27] I think that's the same with any conspiracy.
[1:32:28] If you're an easy mark, you'll just be taken on this wild ride.
[1:32:31] And I mean that from any point of view, including the most
[1:32:33] simple Warren report and Dawson theory.
[1:32:36] But if you're pushing me, Andrea, I'll go with a
[1:32:39] combination of candidates. I'm going to.
[1:32:42] I'm going to throw him under the bus.
[1:32:43] LBJI. Think he had hand in it.
[1:32:45] OK. I think being second in command
[1:32:47] at the time, waiting in the wings to take over immediately,
[1:32:51] the mob maybe had something to do with it because they were
[1:32:53] part of the CIA plot to overthrow Castro.
[1:32:56] The CIA at the time were headed up by Allen Dulles, who was
[1:32:58] instrumental in the beer pigs fiasco, so much so that Kennedy
[1:33:01] fired him in 61. And then Dulles was later part
[1:33:05] of the Warren Commission that Stone says suppressed CIA
[1:33:07] involvement in the case. Yeah, Kennedy wanted out of
[1:33:10] Vietnam, like you said, Westie, which would have lost a lot of
[1:33:12] powerful people, a lot of money. So for me it's Allen Dulles, the
[1:33:17] mob and LBJ. Everyone then.
[1:33:20] Everyone, then, everyone. But it couldn't possibly have
[1:33:25] been Oswald acting alone. The evidence of the back and to
[1:33:29] the left, yeah, it's just too compelling.
[1:33:32] It is, yeah. Or it probably was just Oswald
[1:33:35] who acted as a long gun. Who knows?
[1:33:37] I don't think so. I don't think that's been fairly
[1:33:39] debunked, doesn't it? Yeah, well, I think so, but.
[1:33:41] That but you never. Officially not.
[1:33:44] Officially not. Yeah, it's outrageous.
[1:33:47] Let's not forget as well, ladies, Ventura did confess, so
[1:33:49] there is that. We have that, yeah.
[1:33:53] Nothing else we have. Nothing else.
[1:33:55] It was him. Great.
[1:33:57] Thank you very much for the question, Andrea, what your
[1:34:00] theories are. Yeah, please do.
[1:34:02] So. Once again, huge props to Oliver
[1:34:03] Stone and Zachary Skylar for being able to make anything even
[1:34:06] remotely cohesive out of this story that always threatens to
[1:34:09] spiral out of control. A magnificent piece of writing.
[1:34:12] Yes. Need I say any more than the
[1:34:17] music for JFK was composed by one of the biggest movie legends
[1:34:20] in history, John Williams was of.
[1:34:22] Course, that should speak for itself.
[1:34:24] It does, massively. It does, but I am going to over
[1:34:28] egg this particular pudding. Lovely.
[1:34:31] Love a bit of dairy? Let's do.
[1:34:34] It he takes the source material, makes it better with his music,
[1:34:37] plain and simple, Does it all the time.
[1:34:39] Yeah, even just in that open, entitled credit scene.
[1:34:42] The music, swift change of pace from and the mournful epic of
[1:34:45] the start to a jittery, paranoid rumble to a frenzied military
[1:34:49] March all heightened the image on screen.
[1:34:52] It tells a story where the need for visuals, if you listen to an
[1:34:54] isolation, you know what's going on.
[1:34:56] Yeah. Williams at the time was already
[1:34:58] committed to working on Spielberg's Hook, which came out
[1:35:02] around about the same time as JFK, and as such, he didn't have
[1:35:05] the required time to pull out a conventional score, but was
[1:35:08] compelled to take the gig as in his own words.
[1:35:10] This is a very resonant subject for people of my generation, and
[1:35:14] that's why I welcome the. Opportunity to participate in
[1:35:16] this film. Yeah, very similar films then.
[1:35:19] Yeah. Yeah, all of I've got some stuff
[1:35:21] leftover from who they'll just wiping into JFK.
[1:35:25] Bye. He would have been amazing as
[1:35:27] well. And I think it does show, though
[1:35:31] unusually for a Williams score, I can hear where his influences
[1:35:34] are coming from. I might be after Mark, but
[1:35:36] usually his music is one-of-a-kind, uniquely
[1:35:38] Williams. But I think it checks out that
[1:35:41] he didn't have much time. Tracks like, and if you look at
[1:35:43] the the track list and you'll look and play them, you know,
[1:35:46] Spotify or whatever, you have tracks like Garrison's obsession
[1:35:49] has a rich vein of paranoia running through it, like all the
[1:35:52] best conspiracy thrillers have, like David Shay's work and all
[1:35:55] the presidents, man, the track the conspirators feels like it
[1:35:58] owes a hell of a lot to moral Cornea's work on the
[1:36:00] Untouchables combined with Bernard Herman.
[1:36:05] You know, I'm not knocking the music.
[1:36:06] It's incredible stuff. But maybe you can tell that he
[1:36:09] he had his hands full elsewhere. Because.
[1:36:11] Hulk was a massive undertaking. Yeah, Westy, your thoughts on
[1:36:15] John Williams, his music? I mean, he always brings it,
[1:36:17] doesn't he? Always brings the source, that
[1:36:20] wonderful source that just accompanies them.
[1:36:21] Visuals, hot source. And yeah, the thing that springs
[1:36:24] to mind from this there was it's very unlike Williams.
[1:36:26] And I see what you're saying. Look in that, you know, it
[1:36:29] doesn't feel like it's got 100% Williams in this.
[1:36:31] It feels like he's kind of playing guitar for a band that
[1:36:34] he knows. And he's not, you know, writing
[1:36:36] all the songs. He's just putting some bits in.
[1:36:38] And we don't have a consistent bombastic score for JFK.
[1:36:42] There's no theme. The kind of is at the start I
[1:36:45] guess, but there's no like repetitive.
[1:36:47] There's no more teeth. No, no, that's what he's known
[1:36:51] for. I mean, the more teeth that he
[1:36:53] writes at all just so memorable. But you don't really remember
[1:36:56] much of the music from JFK when you've when you've left it, it's
[1:36:59] not there, doesn't stick in your head.
[1:37:00] I don't think that's what he wants to do.
[1:37:02] I think what he wants to do is he wants to play with the themes
[1:37:04] and the themes that are in the film, and he shows his range
[1:37:07] here in a really short space of time.
[1:37:10] You know, there's little Cuban rooms in there.
[1:37:11] There's military takes, stabs, there's snare drums at the
[1:37:14] start. Then there's these big, you
[1:37:16] know, French horns and all that kind of work.
[1:37:18] But there's not a solid theme, like I said.
[1:37:20] So it is a little bit different for him.
[1:37:22] It's like tracing paper, his music, it just sits over the
[1:37:25] scenes. It doesn't transform them.
[1:37:26] It just elevates them slightly. And that's the genius of
[1:37:30] Williams. He knows when to dive in and he
[1:37:31] knows when to sit back. And this is one of the films
[1:37:33] that he's definitely evident. It's definitely him and he's
[1:37:36] there, but he has sat back a little bit on this one.
[1:37:38] Not a bad thing still, but not what I'm going to buy on vinyl
[1:37:41] and play. This is not top five.
[1:37:45] Matt, what about you? Do you conquer?
[1:37:47] I do conquer. I always forget it's a John
[1:37:49] Williams score because it doesn't really sound like 1.
[1:37:51] And I think part of the reason is Storm doesn't want Williams
[1:37:55] to do the job that he does for Spielberg.
[1:37:57] With Spielberg, it's about the big themes, the ones that stick
[1:38:00] in your head and you can whistle for days afterwards.
[1:38:02] The only one Williams does like, that he is out here at the very
[1:38:06] end, which is that kind of upbeat you and his Garrison
[1:38:08] walks where. And I think that's there because
[1:38:11] Stone obviously knows Gaston's going to lose the case, but he
[1:38:13] wants to reissue the audience that he's still right and he's
[1:38:16] not defeated. And that's what that tune at the
[1:38:18] end gives him. But other than that, I think
[1:38:20] instead of themes, I think he's asking Williams for torn and for
[1:38:22] atmosphere. And that's what Williams
[1:38:24] delivers. There is this really oppressive,
[1:38:26] threatening field to the music. Lots of military snare drums
[1:38:30] that gives the soundtrack the feel of someone being marched to
[1:38:32] the death almost to an execution squad.
[1:38:34] That military vibe it has. And that's obviously what Stone
[1:38:36] wants. So totally agree it's not the
[1:38:38] catchy soundtrack Williams has ever gone paused, but I think it
[1:38:41] encompasses evidence Stone wants on screen.
[1:38:43] Yeah. Oh yeah, it definitely does.
[1:38:44] Yeah, I think that's a really good point about he doesn't want
[1:38:47] them to Spielberg this music. Yeah.
[1:38:50] And Williams put together 6 pieces of music before seeing
[1:38:52] the film. He then went to Dallas to join
[1:38:54] production of the film and viewed about an hour's worth of
[1:38:57] dailies. He recorded some more music and
[1:38:59] Stone actually edited some of the film to match that.
[1:39:02] The opposite of how he usually don't.
[1:39:03] Considering the dense nature of this film, I don't know how he's
[1:39:08] done that, no. And the editing work as well to
[1:39:10] actually cut it to a track could.
[1:39:12] Yeah, exactly. Like to match the timing.
[1:39:14] Yeah. And the tone and the narrative
[1:39:16] flow of it. Maybe this William special work?
[1:39:20] Maybe. When you put it like that.
[1:39:23] Yeah, maybe it's his most understated, which is not a bad
[1:39:26] thing. Yeah, so probably not considered
[1:39:28] among his best work, but William certainly enhances JFK with his
[1:39:32] wide range and musical style. Yeah, finally, one of the
[1:39:38] greatest feats of filmmaking by DP Robert Richardson who used a
[1:39:43] mind boggling array of footage including 35 mil 16 mil super,
[1:39:46] 88 mil video, still photos, scholar black and white.
[1:39:51] Your thoughts on his work here, Westie?
[1:39:53] It's mind bogglingly good in that it seems like this has got
[1:39:57] about 5 DPS on it. It doesn't feel like it's one
[1:40:00] guy at all and was said very similar with Once Upon a Time in
[1:40:04] Hollywood, which we've just done.
[1:40:05] And he was DP on that. And it felt just covering so
[1:40:08] much ground and shooting in so many different ways and having
[1:40:12] these just an incredible ability that he's got to turn his hand
[1:40:15] to everything and make it perfect.
[1:40:16] Like it makes me sick sometimes. It's just so beautifully done,
[1:40:20] and he knows exactly what he's doing.
[1:40:22] But he owes a lot to Oliver Stone.
[1:40:25] His first big gig with Salvador, right?
[1:40:27] And then he went on to do Platoon, was nominated for that.
[1:40:29] But this is the first film where you get that, maybe not the
[1:40:32] first film, but the one for me, that's the most apparent way you
[1:40:34] get that God like light from Richardson where it's just very
[1:40:37] top lit and it's all this kind of backlit tail lights.
[1:40:40] And so it stands out and there's just this real power to the
[1:40:43] lightning this and it feels quite theatrical and it does
[1:40:46] pull you out a little bit and makes it quite fairy tale ish
[1:40:49] when he wants it wants it to and make removes you from the
[1:40:52] realism a little bit. And I think that's what Stone
[1:40:54] was saying. He's like, look, this isn't a
[1:40:55] documentary, This is a dramatization.
[1:40:58] And that's what we're doing with the camera movements.
[1:40:59] That's what we're doing with the lighting.
[1:41:01] That's what we're doing with shooting in every single focal
[1:41:03] length, just so we've got all of these things to play with.
[1:41:06] And I just think of Robert Richardson when I watch these
[1:41:08] films and I watch once for the Time in Hollywood, I watch
[1:41:10] Platoon and the hell that shoot must have been.
[1:41:12] And it's just incredible the patience this guy must have.
[1:41:15] It's not doesn't overuse close up.
[1:41:17] He doesn't overuse moving camera.
[1:41:18] He doesn't overuse the lightning certain sequences.
[1:41:21] Everything then balances out to 1/3 and 1/2 hour.
[1:41:24] Beautiful, balanced square. It's just really, really nicely
[1:41:27] done. Really nicely shot and perfect.
[1:41:29] Yeah, I mean, second episode running, we're talking about
[1:41:32] Richardson and this is one I'll just look at everything Stones
[1:41:35] asking him to do. How did Richardson basically
[1:41:38] just not die making this film through she exertion and
[1:41:42] stressed. Like I said earlier, it's and
[1:41:44] like what was he saying? It's colour but with black and
[1:41:47] white flashbacks. But there's two types of black
[1:41:48] and white being. You see 90% of this film is
[1:41:51] people having conversations in rooms but it's got to move and
[1:41:54] look like a thriller. Richardson won the Oscar for
[1:41:57] this, didn't he? Yes, he did.
[1:41:59] I'm amazed that his acceptance speech wasn't busy.
[1:42:01] Him getting up on the podium and just lying down like.
[1:42:05] Big lie down. I cannot do any more.
[1:42:08] Yeah, exactly. Just spread eagle going all
[1:42:11] over. I'm absolutely done.
[1:42:12] I mean, what he's pulled off here is magnificent.
[1:42:15] And but there's two specific things that stand out for me.
[1:42:18] I mean, Wesley's talked about like the top lighting because
[1:42:20] that me that's almost like a scene where someone's got a
[1:42:22] spotlight in the face. Like, like interrogation scene.
[1:42:26] Yeah. Yeah.
[1:42:26] But because it's not directly in the face, it kind of it's in
[1:42:30] these people aren't guilty. They actually on the side of
[1:42:33] innocence. They've got the truth in this
[1:42:34] situation, which I think is really cover.
[1:42:36] And then the amount of times you see those shots where the light
[1:42:38] flares and reflects and Garrison's glasses, which
[1:42:41] happens a lot. And again, whether that's meant
[1:42:43] to signify him being blinded to the truth or to him seeing the
[1:42:46] light, I think it's a few how you take it.
[1:42:48] So, but that's a brilliant little touch all the same.
[1:42:51] So Richardson here, just top notch work.
[1:42:54] Think what you're saying about the glasses as well as like I
[1:42:56] was looked at lots of people smoking in this.
[1:42:58] Yes, a lot of small. Lots of reflections in
[1:43:01] Garrison's glasses. So is this just smoke and
[1:43:03] mirrors? Yeah, Yeah.
[1:43:04] Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
[1:43:05] You just think, yeah, that's wonderful.
[1:43:07] And the top light as well highlights the head.
[1:43:09] Kennedy was shot in the head. You're going to have to say this
[1:43:11] way and think about it. It all kind of ties in it's.
[1:43:13] Ridiculous. Yeah.
[1:43:14] Automatically it's, I mean, it's so dense thematically, just with
[1:43:18] the visuals. Just look at how complex the
[1:43:20] setup of the shots for each of the each shot of this film.
[1:43:24] For the daily Plaza scenes alone, Richardson used 16 mil
[1:43:27] news film cameras, the Sapruda film which was 8mm where he
[1:43:31] enhanced the image to 35 mil, 16 mil Super 8 formats which were
[1:43:36] then combined for the recreation of the assassination. 7 cameras
[1:43:39] we used along with fourteen film stocks.
[1:43:44] I didn't know there were 14 film stocks.
[1:43:47] Stone envisaged the visuals of the film to be as fractured as
[1:43:50] the story itself, which accounts for the multiple mediums used in
[1:43:53] flashbacks within flashbacks within flashbacks, within an
[1:43:56] enigma, within a mystery. In Richardson, he shot the
[1:44:00] footage of Lee Harvey Oswald in two different ways and this is
[1:44:03] brilliant. The first was on 35mm black and
[1:44:06] white on tripods and dollies, The second on 16mm black and
[1:44:09] white, which was with handheld cameras.
[1:44:12] The 35 represents the Warren Commission's version of events,
[1:44:15] and the 16 is Garrison's version of reality.
[1:44:17] They are. Just leave it there.
[1:44:19] See you later, guys. Thanks for listening.
[1:44:20] We've been all the right movies. You've been fantastic.
[1:44:24] Bye. I I love when a film does that.
[1:44:30] Yeah, there's something like that.
[1:44:32] Yeah. Is just subliminal.
[1:44:33] And when you see it, though, it makes perfect sense.
[1:44:35] And why didn't I think that? Why doesn't everyone do that
[1:44:38] then? Yeah, exactly.
[1:44:39] It's the foresight to do that and the confidence to pull it
[1:44:42] off. It's incredible, yeah.
[1:44:44] Understanding that Garrison was a flawed individual, Richardson
[1:44:47] used different light and to highlight all of Garrison's
[1:44:49] facets. For example, when shooting him
[1:44:51] at home in his family environment, he used a much
[1:44:53] softer light and to bring on this like natural warmth,
[1:44:56] Richardson said. I saw his home as the most
[1:44:58] stable and least threatening element in Jim's life.
[1:45:02] Amazing. Yeah, but then in contrast and
[1:45:04] like the office scenes where Garrison's confrontational,
[1:45:07] Richardson used a hard edge light with enhanced Blues and
[1:45:09] shot at a higher level of contrast.
[1:45:12] Right. But when he's talking to Clair
[1:45:13] Shaw as well, and there's just the three and outside and it's
[1:45:16] so shadowed in there. There's so much contrast ratio
[1:45:19] so high. This was Richardson's 7th
[1:45:21] collaboration of 11 with Oliver Stone.
[1:45:23] He said that Stone was at the top of his game film and JFK.
[1:45:26] Yeah, obviously. And he also said when I met
[1:45:29] Oliver, I felt there was a magical air about him, his
[1:45:32] stronger mind and spirit as I'd encountered.
[1:45:34] I believed he could pull anything out of this magic hat.
[1:45:36] A magician he was, or a shaman A.
[1:45:39] Shaman. Yeah.
[1:45:41] It shows his, like, mental state orders now.
[1:45:43] He's just so chill. Something in Yoda, yeah.
[1:45:47] He. Does he was.
[1:45:51] So an Immaculate crew on JFK all singing off the same hymn sheet
[1:45:54] to create something quite extraordinary.
[1:45:57] Yeah. Absolutely 550 page hymn sheet.
[1:46:03] Just to reiterate, it's 550. The end.
[1:46:13] The end is drawing near. Play Show is arrested and Jim
[1:46:16] Garrison's investigation is rubbished on national
[1:46:18] television. It is.
[1:46:20] And it's all getting a little too much for him personally and
[1:46:22] professionally. Yep, starting with a fireworks
[1:46:25] set an argument with Liz, his wife.
[1:46:28] First off, this is a great opportunity to talk about Sissy
[1:46:31] Spacek. We've discussed her quite a lot
[1:46:32] over the last month or so, which is great.
[1:46:34] In this role, yeah, she doesn't get to do a lot.
[1:46:37] Generally, she's on the other end of Jim's arm, trying to keep
[1:46:40] him from disappearing down the JFK rabbit hole.
[1:46:43] She could be seen as just a nagging wife, but I think she's
[1:46:46] a lot more important than that. I think she symbolizes a sense
[1:46:48] of groundedness about Garrison. He's not just a conspiracy, Not
[1:46:52] who's out of control. Yeah.
[1:46:53] He's got a family that he's responsible for, which humanizes
[1:46:56] him, makes him relatable. And it's this scene in
[1:46:58] particular. Liz has just had about as much
[1:47:01] as she can stand, and she's reached her end with that crank
[1:47:04] call her daughter takes about the beauty pageant.
[1:47:06] Yeah. And Jim dismisses this as there
[1:47:08] are more important things going on in the world, like the news
[1:47:11] on the TV that Martin Luther King's being killed.
[1:47:13] Yeah. And this is Garrison's life
[1:47:15] distilled into one scene. On paper, of course, Martin
[1:47:18] Luther King's death is a billion times worse than a crank call.
[1:47:21] But Liz is on the other side of the fence to Jim.
[1:47:23] She's not caught up in the political machine, So what seems
[1:47:25] like a threat in her daughter is worse than any news outside the
[1:47:29] family. Oh yeah, and Jim's like, oh,
[1:47:32] this happens all the time. But what?
[1:47:33] Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
[1:47:34] School to your mothers for the week.
[1:47:36] Yeah, that's fine. I'll change the locks.
[1:47:37] It's fine. Yeah, no probs.
[1:47:38] And I think this scene presents a great argument with two
[1:47:40] different points of view. Is it worth sacrificing the love
[1:47:43] and safety of your family for something much bigger, but on a
[1:47:46] less relatable scale? There's a great contradiction at
[1:47:49] the heart of this as well. Jim tells Liz there's nothing to
[1:47:52] be scared of, as the images of MLK are there for all to see on
[1:47:55] screen. There definitely is something to
[1:47:57] be scared of. But he's too.
[1:47:59] Far through the looking glass, his eyes are open politically
[1:48:02] but closed emotionally. Love it.
[1:48:05] Yeah, I suppose a little very small issue that I have here,
[1:48:09] and it kind of taps into what you said right at the top,
[1:48:11] Westie, about Costner. I think he does it up a little
[1:48:14] bit here in the moments where his voice is cracking.
[1:48:16] Yeah. When he gets emotional with Liz,
[1:48:19] just a little too heavy-handed. He's pushing it too far when
[1:48:21] he's acting. Should be able to convey his
[1:48:23] emotions without making a fake crack in his voice.
[1:48:26] Yeah, again, that's why I come down to these like home life
[1:48:29] scenes where I'm thinking it's just it seems a little bit
[1:48:32] overplayed, that there's really serious stuff is beautifully
[1:48:35] played and not overdone at all, whereas this home life stuff,
[1:48:38] it's just too simple for the film.
[1:48:40] Yeah, I know what you mean. Well, I'm going from Jim's
[1:48:43] family life falling apart a bit to his professional life falling
[1:48:46] apart a bit. Really important seeing this
[1:48:48] with Bill coming up because you need a bit of balance in the
[1:48:50] film. You need someone who will argue
[1:48:52] against Garrison. And I feel this is Stone
[1:48:54] covering his back to some degree.
[1:48:56] Like, yeah, the films for what I believe, but I did give the
[1:48:59] counter argument its own and it's on like Time to Breathe.
[1:49:03] And it's such a stacked cast as we've been saying that sometimes
[1:49:05] you have to pick individual scenes to talk about actors.
[1:49:08] And I really want to talk about Michael Rocker here.
[1:49:10] He deserves the spotlight because he is great in.
[1:49:13] This. What I really like about his
[1:49:16] performance is like, yes, Bill quits and he's forced into
[1:49:18] economy by the feds to hand over his work, but I don't think he's
[1:49:21] ever seen as an out and out bad guy here or a traitor.
[1:49:25] He wants this case solved as much as anyone else.
[1:49:27] He's not sabotaging it, but he just can't go along with the
[1:49:30] theories that Jim is coming up with, which is an absolute
[1:49:33] fairpoint. And I think in this scene where
[1:49:35] it all blows up between them, Bill is the absolute voice of
[1:49:37] sanity in the room. Because, yes, there's this huge
[1:49:40] build up of evidence, but all the same, to jump to the
[1:49:42] conclusions that Jim does, you need someone to recognize what a
[1:49:46] flimsy case they have. You know, why would the FBI
[1:49:49] cover it up? How can a conspiracy work with
[1:49:52] so many people involved, which I think is the most sensible
[1:49:54] question that's asked. So many key witnesses are dead
[1:49:57] at this point. Nothing concrete has been put
[1:50:00] forward about Clare Shaw. You know, when Bell says, chief,
[1:50:03] you're going to lose, you think, yeah, he will.
[1:50:06] Actually, there's nothing concrete here.
[1:50:09] And Rucker, he's magnificent in that moment when Garrison
[1:50:12] involves Lyndon Johnson in this and he just can't believe what
[1:50:15] he's hearing. You need that moment of anger
[1:50:18] from someone because it is an outrageous claim and you need
[1:50:21] someone to represent. That's why I love Rooker in this
[1:50:23] moment. And the fallout continues
[1:50:25] because Garrison wants him back on the team, but Lew says he
[1:50:28] doesn't trust him and can't work them, so he quits as well.
[1:50:30] The whole thing is starting to wobble and fall apart just at
[1:50:34] the pivotal moment before the trial, which works really well,
[1:50:37] dramatically. But it is all about that one
[1:50:39] dissenting voice going hang on. You've got to think twice about
[1:50:42] this argument, chief. Some of this doesn't hang
[1:50:44] together. It is.
[1:50:45] It's great. It's a great counter to what
[1:50:48] Stone believes. I mean, it's fleeting, but Liz
[1:50:51] has a similar point of view as well.
[1:50:52] Yeah, it's fleeting, but it's memorable.
[1:50:54] You don't kind of dismiss this scene.
[1:50:56] You do go, actually. Yeah, Bill's talking a lot of
[1:50:58] sense. Yeah, Yeah, without doubt.
[1:51:00] Yeah. And then that's the pendulum you
[1:51:02] swing back to build on you. Yeah.
[1:51:05] And talking about Bill, I think that scene perfectly sets up
[1:51:07] what we'll get later on and we'll get the The Jerry Johnson
[1:51:10] Show. But after that at the airport, I
[1:51:11] think it's really important that we've had that scene previously
[1:51:14] with Bill because then we are on the back foot I think a little
[1:51:16] bit. But going back to The Jerry
[1:51:18] Johnson Show, I think this is just an incredible set design.
[1:51:21] It's just an incredible scene. I think it's the way they make a
[1:51:24] fool out of them. And I think this is Oliver Stone
[1:51:27] saying this is what the press do.
[1:51:28] This is what the media do. They'll make a fool out of you,
[1:51:31] make you look stupid, make your theories look stupid.
[1:51:33] Even if you've got facts. We're not going to show them on
[1:51:35] the television. We'll see the photographs nor
[1:51:37] the camera pick that up, nor won't.
[1:51:39] We've got liability. We've got this, we've got that.
[1:51:40] You know, let's keep it light, let's keep it cool.
[1:51:42] Let's you know, let's keep it entertaining.
[1:51:44] Let's keep it zesty. And you know what?
[1:51:46] You want to show them a ballad and all they want to pop song.
[1:51:49] You know, you've got to keep an entertainer for the audience and
[1:51:50] they don't want to hear the truth.
[1:51:52] In the amount of times the Garrison says a free thinking
[1:51:54] country, a free thinking world in the in the closing speech.
[1:51:58] I think that's what this scenes about and that he's not allowed
[1:52:00] to say what he wants. He's not allowed any free
[1:52:02] speech. It doesn't exist, especially
[1:52:05] through channels and especially on the television, especially
[1:52:07] through the media. And then when he gets to the
[1:52:08] airport and he says Bill again, Bill does warn him that, you
[1:52:12] know, you're going to be killed. Don't know if that's part of it
[1:52:15] all or whether he's going to talk him out of it and Gareth is
[1:52:17] going to listen to him. But again, he's I don't want any
[1:52:20] crackpot theory. There's no threat to Jim at any
[1:52:23] point until now. And I think we need this point
[1:52:26] in the film to say that he is actually could be a target.
[1:52:29] He could be taken out at some point and we'll get to the end
[1:52:31] of the film and you start to think, I mean, especially in 91,
[1:52:33] you're in the cinema, right? You think it's just the end now
[1:52:36] what's going to happen to him and that great build attention
[1:52:38] when he's in the bathroom and you know, there's the shoes
[1:52:40] outside that cuts to that cuts back to him.
[1:52:43] We don't actually know what was going to happen to him.
[1:52:44] That is a conspiracy in itself. He's going to be kidnapped.
[1:52:47] Was he going to be killed? Was he going to be taken into
[1:52:49] custody? Was something else going to
[1:52:50] happen? Was he going to be tortured?
[1:52:51] Was we don't know. But it's the element of threat
[1:52:54] and the distrust that we now have in Bill and that look, when
[1:52:57] he's reading the magazine, he just looks over to him.
[1:52:59] Yeah, Really brilliantly played out.
[1:53:01] I mean, these two sections, these and the section that Matt
[1:53:04] talked about, they're 3 short films, just one after the other.
[1:53:07] Yeah. They are absolutely amazing.
[1:53:10] And those two things that you're talking about there, they were
[1:53:11] absent from the original theatrical cut of the film.
[1:53:14] They were Ronnie inserted in the director's cut.
[1:53:16] Jerry Johnson in the airport. I think they're absolutely
[1:53:18] necessary. Yeah, and that's John
[1:53:20] Larroquette, who plays Jerry Johnson.
[1:53:22] He's great. Yeah, he's great.
[1:53:24] Who does the voice over open and crawl narration for Texas
[1:53:28] Chainsaw Massacre? Yes, yes.
[1:53:29] Yep. Magnet appeared in the joint.
[1:53:32] Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
[1:53:36] So Jim is now a public figure, making his position all the more
[1:53:39] dangerous. Yep.
[1:53:43] Haven't been betrayed by Bill. Jim has plunged deeper into
[1:53:46] despair as news comes through of Bobby Kennedy's assassination.
[1:53:49] Clay's show has finally brought to trial, and what follows is an
[1:53:52] incredible feat of filmmaking. And Matt's starting us off with
[1:53:56] the right Tata, but the wrong ho ho that's.
[1:54:00] Right. That's me all over.
[1:54:02] I mean, this whole trial section is just directed with such
[1:54:06] confidence because Stone has this big fat book of evidence
[1:54:12] and every single bit of it is laid out for all the scene.
[1:54:15] The thing is, it doesn't start well.
[1:54:17] The judge won't let the cop testify about Clay Shaw in front
[1:54:20] of the jury, which is ridiculous.
[1:54:22] There's that really weird guy on the standards who's been
[1:54:25] fingerprinting his daughter, who's been called as a key
[1:54:27] witness, but everything else is stolen, threatened together.
[1:54:31] Everything he's shown us and tell us that everything he's
[1:54:34] shown us has been important. The hobos at the start, that's
[1:54:38] why they're important. The guy opening the umbrella who
[1:54:41] we see for a few seconds, that's why he's important.
[1:54:44] And then you get to the two most important and interlink pieces
[1:54:47] of evidence Garrison has. And even for recreation that's
[1:54:51] approved of, footage of JFK never ceases to be shocking.
[1:54:55] It's so savage and brutal, and it's the most quartable part of
[1:54:59] the film, obviously. Back and to the left.
[1:55:01] To the left back zoom. To the left.
[1:55:03] Zoom. Zoom, zoom.
[1:55:05] And the reason you have that repetition is because this is
[1:55:07] Stone saying look how simple this case is.
[1:55:11] That simple physical motion is all you need to know to question
[1:55:14] where is Oswald shooting from because he's shooting from
[1:55:17] behind, but the head is going back and to the left.
[1:55:20] That should be all evidence anyone needs and should be open
[1:55:23] and shut. And just in case that doesn't
[1:55:25] convince you, yeah, then I've probably the most famous part of
[1:55:28] the film, which is certainly the most parodied, which is the
[1:55:31] demonstration of the magic bullet and how unlikely it is.
[1:55:34] And yes, a lot of things have been said about Storm
[1:55:36] misrepresenting exactly how they were sitting in that car, how
[1:55:39] he's interpreted certain movements or reactions by
[1:55:41] Connolly in the video. But all we can talk about is how
[1:55:44] Storm presents the evidence here, and the evidence is
[1:55:47] ridiculously convincing. The description of the path of a
[1:55:50] bullet has never been as compelling as this.
[1:55:53] For it to take that path, to do all that damage to all the
[1:55:56] different people, to hang in mid air, it just takes you back to
[1:55:59] that scene was centered along right at the start.
[1:56:01] That dog don't hunt. Yeah, and you completely agree
[1:56:04] when you see what he means. And it is seemingly piece after
[1:56:07] piece after piece of damning evidence laid out for everyone
[1:56:09] to see, particularly with that amazing model set he's had built
[1:56:12] in the Plaza. Wonderful, isn't it?
[1:56:14] It's like. Incredible.
[1:56:15] I'd love to play with that. That looks amazing play.
[1:56:17] With it, yeah, would. Just move everyone about, put
[1:56:21] people up on the grass, you know?
[1:56:22] I'm sorry it's not escaping, I haven't painted it.
[1:56:29] It's fine, it's fine, but you get to the end of this and you
[1:56:34] think where did this all start? This all started outside Guy
[1:56:37] Banister's office. Go on this location is a bit
[1:56:40] strange for Oswald to be hanging about in isn't it?
[1:56:42] And you've ended up here. And I think it's tribute to
[1:56:45] Stones powers of persuasion and storytelling in the conviction
[1:56:49] and customers performs because he's so fired up by this point
[1:56:52] that you think, how can anyone not think this is true?
[1:56:56] And what makes me laugh is the bit that sounds the most
[1:56:57] ludicrous of all, the bit where you are.
[1:56:59] Come on, Oliver. That's a bit too much.
[1:57:01] The president's brain is missing.
[1:57:03] That's true. Yeah.
[1:57:04] It was lost and they've never found it.
[1:57:06] Yeah, it's unbelievable. Yeah.
[1:57:09] So if that's true. Yeah, exactly.
[1:57:11] Everything could be. That's the most ridiculous
[1:57:13] thing, and that's definitely true.
[1:57:14] Well, everything's true of them. Yeah, exactly.
[1:57:17] I mean, this is Oliver Stone's day in the dock, isn't it?
[1:57:19] Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
[1:57:21] And the magic bullet theory is a popular one, but one which has
[1:57:24] also been debunked. The film argues that it hit the
[1:57:27] back of Kennedy's jacket and changed direction, exit and his
[1:57:30] throat. Yeah, yeah.
[1:57:31] But it's been proved, allegedly that his jacket was hitched up
[1:57:34] above his shoulders. Yeah, yeah.
[1:57:36] A few seconds prior to the bullet hitting, making it more
[1:57:38] unbelievable that it was on a natural trajectory.
[1:57:41] Right. And then if that's true, then it
[1:57:43] calls into question everything else in the argument.
[1:57:45] But then if you want to believe that, you can.
[1:57:47] If you don't, you don't have to. Yeah.
[1:57:49] And who's telling you this truth?
[1:57:51] Yeah, who's debunked it? Yeah, exactly.
[1:57:54] And what are their motivations and whether they lean left or
[1:57:57] right and, you know, everything? Yeah, and after this compelling
[1:58:02] evidence, Garrison goes into his account of Oswald's whereabouts
[1:58:05] at the time of the shooting. And again, so convincing.
[1:58:09] Storm presenting his side of the argument so clearly and
[1:58:11] thrillingly. Garrison reinforcing the myriad
[1:58:14] of witnesses and potential suspects that are completely
[1:58:17] brushed under the carpet. Who could have provided a better
[1:58:20] explanation than this horseshit that they have on Oswald?
[1:58:23] The people dressed as hobos, The people imitating the Secret
[1:58:26] Service agents. And this is for me is is the
[1:58:28] zenith of Oliver Stone's filmmaking talents as he
[1:58:30] reconstructs footage of Oswald's movement, footage which is
[1:58:33] seamlessly edited in with archival footage.
[1:58:36] A heavy mixture of everything that has elevated the film so
[1:58:39] far, editing, cinematography, acting, direct and writing.
[1:58:42] Even shows an alleged real time Oswald firing off three shots
[1:58:46] then stashing the gun. And that real time thing is so
[1:58:48] powerful. How could he possibly squeezed
[1:58:51] off three shots with such accuracy in that time and then
[1:58:54] make it back down to the second floor?
[1:58:56] Why did he stick around to get a cork and then leave fire a more
[1:59:00] obvious exit for the police. And then footage takes us back
[1:59:04] to his home. Oswald plugging away at a cop,
[1:59:06] then at the Texas Theatre before being plugged by Jack Ruby.
[1:59:10] And at each step it becomes more and more apparent than Oswald is
[1:59:13] a Patsy. He's a set up take the fall for
[1:59:16] some unknown sinister plot. And it's a really tragic tale.
[1:59:19] Company with Williams of stir and music as he goes down in
[1:59:23] slow mall in a maze of black and white footage.
[1:59:26] Yeah. And it all feels like
[1:59:28] documentary. All narrated by the trustworthy
[1:59:30] voice of Kevin Costner. Yeah.
[1:59:32] We're not watching a film. This is a documentary now.
[1:59:35] Yeah. Stone knows how to manipulate or
[1:59:37] feel a certain way and getting you on his wavelength.
[1:59:39] A lot of it's bogus, of course, but it all feels real.
[1:59:42] And I think that's key. It's the feeling that Stone has
[1:59:44] grabbed a hold of you with and now he's got you so we could
[1:59:47] tell you anything. You believe it?
[1:59:49] Yeah, yeah. It's like the bit where you see
[1:59:52] Oswald, like running down the stairs and then he says, but
[1:59:54] he's not out of breath and you see him stop and compose
[1:59:56] himself. Just moments like that are so
[1:59:58] brilliantly done. It's beautiful.
[2:00:00] Yeah. Oh, right.
[2:00:02] OK, we've got ourselves to the end point and Westie, the main
[2:00:06] man, is going to take us through the closing arguments.
[2:00:09] OK, well, big prayers. I mean, this is the moment that
[2:00:12] sticks with you. The fact that cost now
[2:00:14] remembered all of this, the whole thing, in fact, you know,
[2:00:18] and just rattled it off. I mean, I put an excerpt from
[2:00:20] the screenplay in the group like yesterday, day before.
[2:00:24] I was like, imagine reading that and going, yeah, I can do that
[2:00:26] no problem. Unbelievable.
[2:00:28] I couldn't remember where I left me slippers yesterday.
[2:00:30] Nevermind like this huge list of these facts that he needs to get
[2:00:35] right, the names he needs to get right and it's amazing from
[2:00:39] Costa. This final argument is clause
[2:00:42] and statement his absolute full stop.
[2:00:45] He's got nothing else to say after this.
[2:00:47] Nothing else is more important and that's what he says to the
[2:00:50] jury. There's nothing more important
[2:00:52] than this. It's about your kids.
[2:00:53] It's about generations. It's about it's going to be
[2:00:55] passed down. It's one day somebody's going to
[2:00:58] know the truth wand, even if it's not today, one day this is
[2:01:01] this is absolutely going to happen.
[2:01:03] And it's that conviction from the character.
[2:01:06] It's everything we've been building up towards.
[2:01:08] It's everything we've wanted him to say and he's just exploding.
[2:01:13] But us as the audience, if we are in that jury, we'll just be
[2:01:17] like, stop, Yep, guilty. That's enough, right?
[2:01:20] You're fine. Because we've been on the
[2:01:21] journey with them. And it's him trying to relay
[2:01:24] this journey to people who don't understand the depths of it and
[2:01:27] don't understand what he's been through as a person and as a
[2:01:30] professional and as somebody who's really trying to fix this
[2:01:34] problem and the problem that he addresses it.
[2:01:36] It's not about Kennedy. It's not necessarily about who
[2:01:40] killed who or what or why or where or when or what.
[2:01:43] It doesn't matter. It's about freedom of speech.
[2:01:46] It's about not being lied to. It's about not being
[2:01:48] manipulated. It's about being trapped like a
[2:01:50] fucking human being and not being trapped like a piece of
[2:01:53] cattle that you can just shove off to war and let the rich
[2:01:56] people get the money for it. And all the poor kids are going
[2:01:58] to die in Vietnam. And this is what all of us doing
[2:02:00] is putting into these final closing arguments, is that
[2:02:03] America is a great country. And if it's not the great
[2:02:06] country that it thinks it is, it's a great country because it
[2:02:08] should be. And it should be loyal and it
[2:02:10] should be trustworthy and it should be doing everything to
[2:02:12] the letter. And the first people that should
[2:02:14] be buying that or benefiting from that are the citizens of
[2:02:18] that country. And they're not, they're the
[2:02:19] ones being lied to. They're the ones being
[2:02:21] manipulated. They're the ones going to war
[2:02:23] for the wealthy, and they're the ones who are dying for the some
[2:02:25] money and for the sake of it, the need, the truth.
[2:02:29] That's the passion that you get from this closing statement.
[2:02:32] The jury doesn't buy it, but we do as an audience.
[2:02:35] And that's that final shot where he turns to the camera and he
[2:02:38] just says it's up to you. Yeah.
[2:02:40] That's up to you now. Yeah.
[2:02:42] And I think what all of us don't want to do with this film, Yes,
[2:02:44] it's historically inaccurate. Yes.
[2:02:46] It's lies upon lies. Yes, but they've lied.
[2:02:48] There was a way lying back. And all he wants you to do is
[2:02:52] think it's freedom of speech and freedom of thought.
[2:02:55] It's not about being a conspiracy theorist.
[2:02:57] It's about, you know, looking at how you being threat and maybe
[2:03:00] just think about it for a second because you might just be
[2:03:02] getting fucked over. Just think about that.
[2:03:05] And it is influenced every single courtroom drama since
[2:03:08] this film came out. Every single Primal Fear, Few
[2:03:12] Good Men, Time to Kill Sleepers, everything so well done.
[2:03:17] It could just be a courtroom drama, but the whole film is so
[2:03:20] much more. And this is just the cherry on
[2:03:22] the cake. That's how with this film is.
[2:03:24] I think Stone, you know, he's well known that he's very much
[2:03:27] anti establishment and that's reinforced with this film.
[2:03:30] Yeah, I think he's just challenging the status quo and
[2:03:32] the facts accepted by the government.
[2:03:34] When we get to this final scene, the audience are the jewelry
[2:03:37] like we are the. Jewelry.
[2:03:39] Jewelry, yeah. And he's presented such a
[2:03:41] compelling narrative that will swallow anything.
[2:03:43] There are wild swings of fact and fiction, conspiracy
[2:03:46] theories, things that are just playing lies, but it puts a seed
[2:03:49] of doubt in your mind. And I think ultimately that's
[2:03:51] what Storm wanted to do, Make an incredible film.
[2:03:54] One that challenges the ideology of popular belief or belief laid
[2:03:58] down by the above, challenging the establishment ruffle and
[2:04:01] feathers, making people stand up and take notice.
[2:04:03] Yeah, I think he's saying if you're going to question my
[2:04:06] story, that's fine, but are you going to question their story
[2:04:08] with the same absolutely strength?
[2:04:10] Literal. And if you're not, why not?
[2:04:13] Exactly. In that moment, that amazing
[2:04:15] moment when Gaussen chokes up to you in his closing arguments,
[2:04:18] that wasn't scripted. This was costing it, genuinely
[2:04:20] fighting back the tears when the emotional weight of his
[2:04:22] monologue dawned on him. That's.
[2:04:24] Incredible. Wow.
[2:04:26] Oh, what a monologue. And it brings with that our
[2:04:28] third Patreon question. This one is from Simon Hughes.
[2:04:31] Hello, Simon. Hello, Simon.
[2:04:33] Simon Says customers close an argument.
[2:04:35] Does any of the monologue in content or delivery compared to
[2:04:38] this? Matt, what do you think?
[2:04:42] Obviously there's lots of amazing ones for a whole variety
[2:04:44] of reasons. Marlon Brando on the back of the
[2:04:47] cab on the waterfront. That's heartbreak.
[2:04:49] Oh yeah. Yeah.
[2:04:50] Christopher Walken talking about the watch in Pulp Fiction.
[2:04:52] That's hilarious. Brilliant.
[2:04:54] Possess that's. Glad watch, but this one it's
[2:04:59] the sheer length of the monologue there's.
[2:05:01] I mean, there's a few references to Shakespeare do in the film,
[2:05:04] but this monologue is Shakespearean.
[2:05:07] It's like watching Brandon do to be or not to be from Hamlet.
[2:05:10] But it is also the importance of it.
[2:05:12] You know, there's nothing more important than arguing there's a
[2:05:15] conspiracy to murder the president of the United States.
[2:05:19] I think the only one that comes close is Quint talking about the
[2:05:22] Indianapolis and Jaws, which again, is fairly different.
[2:05:24] But honestly, I think this one takes it because of the
[2:05:27] importance of it. How Stone shoots it, the mileage
[2:05:29] he gets out of it. Visually, it's amazing.
[2:05:33] You know, I'd say there are a number of elements in this film,
[2:05:35] and I have been talking about them which are being close to
[2:05:38] unrivalled in movie history and know that I'm not.
[2:05:41] And that's not hyperbole. I really believe that.
[2:05:43] Yeah, I mean, it's fact. And this scene with Costner is
[2:05:47] one of them. It's simply and stuff.
[2:05:49] To have a film with this kind of dialogue is a golden goose, the
[2:05:53] eye of the duck, as David Lynch would say.
[2:05:56] Yes. Yes, very much.
[2:05:57] Yeah, Yeah. But it's not the first epic
[2:05:59] monologue in this film. Sutherland has got one earlier
[2:06:01] that's just as incredible. Yeah, good point.
[2:06:05] Yeah. Probably both unrivaled but
[2:06:08] outside of JFKI. Thought of a few of them.
[2:06:10] I did think of Jaws and Pulp Fiction, but Robin Williams is
[2:06:15] your move, Chief. Yes.
[2:06:16] Beautiful. Beautiful.
[2:06:17] I'm going to throw in TLJ and hear his speech at the end of No
[2:06:21] Country Hunt and stuff. Oh yes.
[2:06:24] And I really, really love Do the Right Thing.
[2:06:27] And the sooner we talk about that, the better.
[2:06:30] But. Really.
[2:06:31] Or Raheem's love and hate monologue all in one take break
[2:06:36] in the 4th wall scored by a Public Enemy.
[2:06:39] It's amazing. Yeah.
[2:06:40] Unreal. Love it.
[2:06:41] Yeah. Yeah.
[2:06:42] What about USCI? Had a few there.
[2:06:43] I had definitely had Jaws and I had Google hunting as well.
[2:06:46] Nice. But I would say the tears and
[2:06:48] rain speech from Blade Runner. Oh yeah, it's absolutely
[2:06:51] fantastic. And you've got no standard
[2:06:53] innovation. Round of applause for that.
[2:06:55] Any Given Sunday, another of us own film inches.
[2:06:58] Yeah. Inches.
[2:07:01] That's incredible. Even if you've not seen the
[2:07:03] film, you just watch that and you are just absolutely
[2:07:05] motivated. It's an incredible, incredible
[2:07:07] script. Brilliant.
[2:07:09] But the one that stuck out with me as soon as I thought about
[2:07:11] it, the great Dictator Chaplain speech in that.
[2:07:15] Yeah, I think that was that's. Just one.
[2:07:17] Yeah, it's just, it's a game changer, an absolute game
[2:07:22] changer because it's straight to camera and absolute honesty.
[2:07:26] And it breaks down what cinema was and how it connects to its
[2:07:28] audience. And I think there's, there was a
[2:07:30] lot of that gone into this. And I think that's that's where
[2:07:32] he's got a lot of influence from as well.
[2:07:34] And I think that's that's an incredible piece of work.
[2:07:36] Magic. Thank you very much for the
[2:07:38] question, Simon. Yes, thank you, Simon.
[2:07:40] And whether you prefer any of those or one of your own over
[2:07:43] Costner's closing arguments, there's no denying the power of
[2:07:46] the performance here. And although Garrison lost, it
[2:07:49] released a lot of information in the public domain and challenged
[2:07:52] the establishment. And I'm sure that exactly what's
[2:07:55] Oliver Stone wanted for his film as well.
[2:07:57] That was his intention. He did.
[2:08:01] Reception and awards. For a film of this magnitude,
[2:08:06] JFK went through production very swiftly.
[2:08:09] There were a couple of months prep, three months for the
[2:08:11] shoot, and only three months in the cutting room.
[2:08:14] Considering the task at hand, it's a minor miracle Stone
[2:08:18] rushed it through without test screenings to avoid negative
[2:08:20] feedback, creating notes from the studio asking for reshoots.
[2:08:25] Obviously, yeah, Stones original cut of JFK ran at 4 1/2 hours,
[2:08:31] he said. There was a lot of clear shore
[2:08:32] footage that was removed, along with a fantasy sequence of
[2:08:35] Oswald looking at the camera protesting his innocence, and I
[2:08:38] think that's what that'd be. The the original Cook came in at
[2:08:44] 3 hours 8 minutes despite it being in his contract to be 3
[2:08:47] hours or under. And the director's cut came out
[2:08:49] a few years later, clocking in at a whopping 3 hours and 25
[2:08:52] minutes. So we mentioned the two scenes
[2:08:54] at the talk show and at the airport, which we re inserted.
[2:08:57] And the rest of the extra footage is additional moments of
[2:08:59] dialogue, which are just added to scenes already in the
[2:09:02] theatrical cut. Yes, that's right.
[2:09:04] Yeah, well before that. Months before the film actually
[2:09:07] came out, it faced a huge backlash.
[2:09:11] The first moment of discontent came from George Will of the
[2:09:13] Washington Post, based on a leaked copy of the first draft
[2:09:17] of the screenplay. He claimed that the movie was a
[2:09:19] three hour lie and said that Stone may be an intellectual
[2:09:23] sociopath. True, that's a fair cop.
[2:09:27] It's fine, he's admitted that. The Post later ran a story
[2:09:32] called Onset Dallas in Wonderland, how Oliver Stone's
[2:09:36] version of Kennedy assassination exploits the edge of paranoia.
[2:09:40] Dallas in Wonderland. That's genius.
[2:09:42] That gives you that. I love you.
[2:09:44] Yeah. Almost as good as Garrison Ford.
[2:09:47] So praise, no praise. Obviously don't get anywhere
[2:09:50] else. Do it.
[2:09:54] Newsweek cover story. Read why Oliver Stones new movie
[2:09:56] can't be trusted and chief exec of the MPAA Jack Valenti
[2:10:00] compared JFK to the Nazi propaganda film Triumph of the
[2:10:04] Will. Wow, wow.
[2:10:06] See where he's? Strong views.
[2:10:08] So upon release, it was healed by mainstream media as the most
[2:10:11] dangerous movie in America. I mean, that would just make me
[2:10:14] want to say it all the more. Let's.
[2:10:16] Go 3 hours. Absolutely.
[2:10:17] Get it in there. It's.
[2:10:18] Banned like Texas trade. So yeah, exactly.
[2:10:21] Oh please. And it wasn't just media outlets
[2:10:24] who were outraged by what the source their irresponsibility of
[2:10:26] spreading and normalizing misinformation.
[2:10:29] The government went sense with their betrayal, a secret of
[2:10:31] murderers involved in nefarious plots, including defectors in
[2:10:34] the mafia. And Stone was also targeted by
[2:10:37] historians only interested in facts.
[2:10:39] Just rude to be honest and like minded conspiracy theories.
[2:10:43] And they were frustrated because they didn't have the kind of
[2:10:46] platforms Stone did to spout their views.
[2:10:48] Getting it from all angles, Stone said.
[2:10:51] It was a hot potato from the get go, much hotter than I thought.
[2:10:54] I didn't realize it would hit the central nerve core of the
[2:10:57] establishment. That's what you want.
[2:10:59] Yeah, because he did. Because he did.
[2:11:01] And when it opened in December 1991, there was a muted audience
[2:11:04] response to JFK and its opening week.
[2:11:07] It ended up at the disappointing 5th on the box office charts and
[2:11:10] was at the way to becoming a flop.
[2:11:12] Yes, but in the weeks that followed, which included a $15
[2:11:15] million ad campaign, JFK built up a huge amount of momentum and
[2:11:19] wound up earning a whopping $200 million at the box office, which
[2:11:22] made it a sixth highest grossing film of the year.
[2:11:25] Wow. I mean from rising from the
[2:11:27] ashes there. Yeah.
[2:11:28] For a three hour plus period piece this dense, yeah, DMA, but
[2:11:33] I suppose there's no such thing as bad press.
[2:11:35] No, definitely well when you got 15,000,000 inject. 15 I mean
[2:11:39] we'd be, we'd earn 200 mill if we were given the 15 mill
[2:11:42] marketing campaign. Absolutely.
[2:11:45] If we were the most dangerous part in America, I think we are.
[2:11:50] We are. We are with this episode, yes.
[2:11:52] We are. They're going to come after us.
[2:11:53] After JFK came out Paul Short that 80% of the American public
[2:11:57] believed that there was a conspiracy behind JFK's death,
[2:12:00] which was up 10% from a similar poll conducted in the late 70s.
[2:12:04] Right. See, it was always there.
[2:12:06] It was always there. It was always there.
[2:12:08] It was polarizing with critics upon release.
[2:12:10] A lot focused on the spread of misinformation, The New York
[2:12:13] Times said. At what point does a studio
[2:12:15] exercise its leverage and blunt the highly charged message of a
[2:12:19] filmmaker like Oliver Stone? Never.
[2:12:22] Never. Don't do it.
[2:12:22] Not at all. However, there were critics who
[2:12:25] loved the film, but that was also highly controversial.
[2:12:28] Richard Callas in Time magazine said whatever one suspicions
[2:12:31] about its use or abuse of the evidence, JFK is a knockout.
[2:12:35] Yeah, part history book, part comic book, the movie rushes
[2:12:38] toward judgment for three breathless hours, lasso in facts
[2:12:41] and factoids by the thousands, then bundling them together into
[2:12:45] an incendiary device that would frag any viewers.
[2:12:47] Complacency, indeed. And what of our man Ebert Fellas
[2:12:52] out of four? He'd give it full, didn't he?
[2:12:54] Because he got some shit for it, I think.
[2:12:56] Yeah, I think he's all in on this.
[2:12:57] He'd love. It.
[2:12:59] Yes, yes, four of the best 4/4, he said.
[2:13:03] Oliver Stone was born to make this movie.
[2:13:05] He's a filmmaker of feverish energy and limitless technical
[2:13:08] skill, able to assemble a bewilder an array of facts and
[2:13:11] fancies and compose them into a film without getting bogged
[2:13:14] down. Yeah, even the critics suffered
[2:13:16] a backlash to the film as well. Though the Washingtonian movie
[2:13:20] critic Pat Dowell loved the film but had her mini review of it
[2:13:23] rejected because of the positivity she portrayed, she
[2:13:26] resigned in protest. Wow for her.
[2:13:29] Yeah, and as you said, Westie Ebert later told a story about
[2:13:32] TV legend Walter Cronkite, given him a dressing down because of
[2:13:35] the positive review the film picked up.
[2:13:38] Madness. Unbelievable nerve.
[2:13:40] Very much at the Oscars. It was a big night for Silence
[2:13:43] of the Lambs, obviously so. JFK face stiff competition in
[2:13:47] the categories it was nominated for, which were Best Picture,
[2:13:50] Director, Adapted Screenplay, supporting actor Tommy Lee
[2:13:52] Jones, Score and sound. It did, however, pick up two
[2:13:56] awards that we've already mentioned.
[2:13:57] Best Editing, Best Cinematography.
[2:14:00] I mean, those got to be two of the most deserved awards.
[2:14:03] Editing and shooting this. Yeah, forget about.
[2:14:07] That's of the way you said, Tommy Lee Jones.
[2:14:09] There you go. Tay Burton.
[2:14:14] Best support? Charlie Jones It also got
[2:14:20] similar recognition at the Golden Globes, where it was
[2:14:22] nominated for Best Motion Picture, Best Actor Kevin
[2:14:24] Costner and Best Screenplay. Do that on every single episode
[2:14:29] now. Yeah.
[2:14:32] Love it. The Storm one best director of
[2:14:34] the Golden Globes and in his acceptance speech he said a
[2:14:37] terrible I was told it was 28 years ago.
[2:14:39] I hope that this film could be the first step in righting that
[2:14:42] wrong by telling around 32 other lies.
[2:14:47] But better lies, yeah? It received a similar number of
[2:14:50] nominations to the Baftas, and one for best edit and a best
[2:14:53] sound as well. Yeah.
[2:14:54] So a response rarely seen going beyond the confines of the world
[2:14:57] of cinema and in the public consciousness.
[2:15:00] The fact that it was Oliver Stone's most successful film
[2:15:02] that the box office is almost unfathomable, with some very
[2:15:05] positive reviews and awards recognition thrown in for good
[2:15:08] measure and unexpected success story.
[2:15:11] Yeah. Possibly sequels and influence.
[2:15:19] There are no sequels to JFK as such.
[2:15:21] There were a number of publications and documentaries
[2:15:23] in the wake of the film. Isle of a Stone himself directed
[2:15:26] two key documentaries on the subject.
[2:15:28] JFK Revisited through the Looking Glass A2 hour
[2:15:31] documentary from 2021, reinforces theories introduced
[2:15:34] in the film, backed up by new interviews and evidence, none of
[2:15:38] which is that credible. Laser beam.
[2:15:41] Laser beam. And he also directed JFK Destiny
[2:15:51] Betrayed, a four part documentary released around the
[2:15:54] same time that goes into detail about the circumstances and
[2:15:57] political events leading up to the assassination and in the
[2:15:59] aftermath. That one is well worth a watch.
[2:16:02] OK. Nice.
[2:16:04] But what of the film's legacy and influence?
[2:16:06] Westie, Where have you seen that in the last 30 odd years?
[2:16:09] Well, I mean, I've said when we're talking about the the
[2:16:12] closing speech there, I mean, it's every courtroom drama
[2:16:14] that's all evident in there. But I think if you're looking at
[2:16:17] something that's going to maybe address some kind of truth that
[2:16:19] was swept away, I think Zero Dark 30 owes a lot to this.
[2:16:23] The open and the Zero Dark 30 is very, very similar.
[2:16:27] The ones that were very similar and ones that remind me very
[2:16:31] much so In the Line of Fire, I think wouldn't exist if it
[2:16:34] wasn't for this. Malcolm X came out the year
[2:16:36] after Incredible, and I think that has a lot to do with it.
[2:16:39] Even films like Milk, I think it has a lot to do with JFK and
[2:16:43] then Eleven, 2263, Stephen King. I think I love that.
[2:16:47] Book and the. Series, the series is brilliant.
[2:16:50] Watch that as well. So that was really good, but I
[2:16:52] think just a different kind of take on that guy goes back in
[2:16:55] time and can prevent the murder. Stephen King at his best for me.
[2:16:59] Yeah. Well, he's recent best anyway.
[2:17:02] It's fantastic. Yeah.
[2:17:03] And what about you, Matt? Legacy and influence.
[2:17:06] Influence a big one on TV? The X-Files.
[2:17:09] I think without doubt Chris Carter, creator of The X-Files.
[2:17:11] He obviously watched this and thought what if they were
[2:17:14] talking about aliens though instead of an assassination.
[2:17:18] In terms of cinema, I'd be fascinated he offended his
[2:17:20] thoughts on this because this feels like it's a clear
[2:17:23] influence on Zodiac, going down the rabbit hole of graspiracies,
[2:17:27] identifying people as being involved, laying out the
[2:17:30] evidence bit by bit by bit in the really compelling manner.
[2:17:33] And then legacy. I look at Oliver Stone himself
[2:17:36] and I think if you look at the rest of his filmography after
[2:17:38] this, it feels like this took so much out of him.
[2:17:41] I don't think he ever quite recovered.
[2:17:43] I mean, there's flashes of greatness after this and he
[2:17:46] given Sunday Nixon's worth a watch.
[2:17:49] Not Robot Killers are certainly interesting, but nothing on the
[2:17:51] level of what he achieved here. Or before that either.
[2:17:55] Well, yeah. Platoon, Wall Street on the 4th
[2:17:58] of July, those are all incredible films.
[2:18:00] I don't think he hit those milestones after this.
[2:18:02] He's made the ultimate Oliver Stone film.
[2:18:05] Yeah. So where else could he go?
[2:18:06] And that's its legacy for me to the ultimate Oliver Stone film.
[2:18:10] Yeah, I agree with a lot of what you fellas have said.
[2:18:12] Zodiac for certain. The way that film presents its
[2:18:15] evidence. Also a lot to JFK.
[2:18:17] Not as in your face as JFK, of course, but also not forget what
[2:18:21] you said in the line of Fire, Dick Donna's conspiracy theory.
[2:18:25] There are loads of examples. Conspiracy theory.
[2:18:27] Mel Gibson actually been in that one.
[2:18:29] Yes, exactly. That's right.
[2:18:30] Yeah, It's been parodied in the likes of Seinfeld.
[2:18:34] It was solely responsible for a resurgence in huge public
[2:18:37] interest in the case, bringing it back into public
[2:18:40] consciousness. Countless documentaries and
[2:18:41] books have been made as a result.
[2:18:43] Stone's film made the subject of bankable piece of IP, and I
[2:18:47] don't think that Stone could have ever predicted the
[2:18:49] intensity of the interest in the film and subject.
[2:18:51] But I'm certainly was thrilled in one way with the scrutiny as
[2:18:54] it challenged the governmental position on the assassination,
[2:18:57] something that I believe was his ultimate goal.
[2:19:00] Oh yeah, yeah, definitely was. When the scrutiny of the film
[2:19:02] was at fever pitch, Warner spearheaded the campaign to free
[2:19:05] the files, urging Congress to release classified files on the
[2:19:09] assassination, which weren't planned to be made publicly
[2:19:11] available until 2029. And this was done to take away a
[2:19:15] slight focus from the film. And it ultimately led to the
[2:19:18] passing of the John F Kennedy Assassination Records Collection
[2:19:21] Act. And this led to the release of
[2:19:23] millions of previously classified documents held on the
[2:19:25] assassination, either directly or indirectly.
[2:19:28] In, Stone asserted that the material was under lock and key
[2:19:31] because there was something to hide.
[2:19:32] I mean, you talk about legacy and influence, Yeah.
[2:19:35] Wow. Yeah, it was also agreed that
[2:19:39] all the files will be declassified by 2017, something
[2:19:42] with Trump delayed by three years due to national security
[2:19:45] campaigns. Biden got the ball rolling
[2:19:47] again, and in March 2025, Trump ordered the declassification of
[2:19:51] 10s of thousands of pages, most of which revealed very little.
[2:19:54] Although Trump did weighed in. He said that he'd always agreed
[2:19:57] that Oswald shut JFK. So was he helped?
[2:20:00] Guess we all want to know that. Thanks, Donald.
[2:20:02] And you? Know that's the power of cinema.
[2:20:06] This is possibly the single most famous moment in 20th century
[2:20:09] history, and Oliver Stone has embedded it in public
[2:20:11] consciousness even further with his film.
[2:20:13] Yeah, what a legacy. That's unbelievable.
[2:20:19] All the right movies ranking. The closing arguments before the
[2:20:24] final verdict is delivered. Matt summary and score for JFK,
[2:20:28] what do you got? He's got a 16 minute model, 1616
[2:20:31] minute. Yeah, coming up, breaking the
[2:20:33] 4th wall. Get on that part, bench boys.
[2:20:37] There, take some notes. You won't believe he was behind
[2:20:39] all this it. Was John, isn't it?
[2:20:42] It was John, Yeah. This one, I mean, there's no
[2:20:47] need to elaborate too much, I've said it all already.
[2:20:50] It's just an absolute masterpiece. 3 1/2 hours has
[2:20:53] never gone by so quickly. Agreed.
[2:20:55] And somehow we've covered it all.
[2:20:58] I really feel like we've really got to the guts of this film.
[2:21:01] The cast is Immaculate, the filmmaking is of such a high
[2:21:05] standard throughout, and this is from a really demonstrated to
[2:21:08] me. If people say well, isn't
[2:21:09] cinematography just making things look nice and pretty?
[2:21:12] No, it's not about telling the story.
[2:21:14] The centropy tells the story, the editor tells the story.
[2:21:16] It's not just about putting things in order.
[2:21:18] And the she guts from stone to make this film knowing he was
[2:21:21] going to get a very public batter and from all corners for
[2:21:24] a whole variety of reasons. Yes, it's given rise to an
[2:21:26] unfortunate amount of conspiracy, no jobs.
[2:21:28] And yes, you can rightly debate storm playing fast and loose
[2:21:31] with historical accuracy. But as I said, the very soft.
[2:21:34] I think that's missing the point to a large degree.
[2:21:36] I'd agree that you know the kind of domestic scenes with delays
[2:21:39] are a little blow apart, but that's not enough of a flaw for
[2:21:42] me to take that into account. Take Gripsy from 1st frame to
[2:21:46] the last. It is relentless in its peers.
[2:21:49] It leads you die into normal and to dive back into it as soon as
[2:21:53] it's finished. It's not just a 10, it's my top
[2:21:56] ten of all time. It's just a staggering,
[2:21:58] remarkable film. Oh.
[2:22:01] There it is. Have that.
[2:22:03] Have that. Wow, Impassioned.
[2:22:06] I love it, Matt. Got to be for this one.
[2:22:08] What about you, Westie? Again, I mean, I'm not going to
[2:22:11] wax lyrical about it and take ages because I think we've spoke
[2:22:14] about it enough and I think we've we've all kind of sung its
[2:22:17] praises all the way through the podcast.
[2:22:19] To be honest. I think it's just an incredible
[2:22:20] piece of work. It's very Oliver Stone.
[2:22:22] I think it's to see somebody sing an artist who has such a
[2:22:25] vision and has such a belief and put that on screen with such
[2:22:29] technical proficiency is just incredible and blows me away.
[2:22:33] I think it's cinema in its most revealing and ambitious form.
[2:22:37] It shows the power of the medium through techniques alone, and
[2:22:39] you can learn everything about film Megan from any single scene
[2:22:43] in this film. For that reason, it's important.
[2:22:46] Yes, it might be lies, but it's lies on top of lies.
[2:22:49] Throw some shit. I'm going to throw it straight
[2:22:50] back. And there's nobody better to
[2:22:52] throw shit at the establishment than Oliver Stone.
[2:22:54] This to me is an easy 10. Oh yeah, I love that.
[2:22:59] OK, right. Well, the runtime.
[2:23:01] It's a daunting prospect, of course.
[2:23:02] It's me, but if that has. Put you off until now like it
[2:23:09] often would for me. Just please watch without
[2:23:11] prejudice because you'll be richly rewarded.
[2:23:14] I've been seeing this all episode now, but there are
[2:23:16] elements in this film that are in the argument for the best
[2:23:19] ever in movie history. And.
[2:23:21] I really stand by that direction.
[2:23:23] Cinematography, edit in all first rate the X scene one of
[2:23:26] the best ever. As is the ensemble cast.
[2:23:29] The Ferrari that this film stirred up and the cultural
[2:23:31] impact that left behind is pretty much unrivalled.
[2:23:35] If you're after a historical document of the truth, you're
[2:23:38] looking in the wrong pace. Yeah, I think you could argue
[2:23:41] that any text or artistic work on this story could never offer
[2:23:44] the actual truth. No.
[2:23:45] This is not a documentary, but it's a dizzy inversion of Oliver
[2:23:49] Stone side of the argument executed by a movie director,
[2:23:52] one of the greatest at the height of his powers.
[2:23:54] And it's one of those glorious moments that I've had over the
[2:23:57] last five years. It's happened a few times where
[2:24:00] I come out of doing a podcast on a film that raced up my charts
[2:24:03] and instantly become one of my favorites.
[2:24:06] It is absolutely one of the greatest films ever made.
[2:24:09] It's everything I could have ever asked for in a film.
[2:24:12] It's without reservation at 10. Beautiful, wonderful, beautiful.
[2:24:16] Oh, so big scores so far. Yeah.
[2:24:18] But what did our patron and supporters rate JFK out of 10?
[2:24:22] I'll keep the anticipation going a little longer while I pick out
[2:24:26] some mini reviews. OK.
[2:24:27] OK. Stuart Mcdeen said this has to
[2:24:30] be the best research film ever made.
[2:24:32] The attention to detail, performances and final courtroom
[2:24:34] scene are superb. The best compliment I can give
[2:24:38] it is that if you are an anti conspiracy theorist or even sat
[2:24:41] on the fence around the JFK assassination, this film will
[2:24:43] certainly give you second thoughts hugely.
[2:24:46] Reward triple. It's a 10.
[2:24:48] Lovely. Wonderful.
[2:24:49] Yes, indeed. That's it, Stuart.
[2:24:51] Love it, Andrea Barker Syed said. 10 For me an earless cast,
[2:24:56] amazing cinematography and visually stunning.
[2:24:58] For any fans of the Kennedy family, this film is a must.
[2:25:01] Yes indeed. Andrea and Warren Dahr gave a
[2:25:06] glory review, he said and Oliver Stone Classic.
[2:25:08] Great storytelling, amazing acting, and visually fulfilled.
[2:25:12] Robert Richardson won the Oscar for a reason.
[2:25:14] Yeah, his score, though? A conservative 8 out of 10.
[2:25:18] Wow, really? Yeah, he's.
[2:25:20] Mistaped that hasn't he put he hasn't got a one on his zero on
[2:25:22] his keyboard surely. Let us know what took away two
[2:25:26] points for you weren't. Yeah, exactly.
[2:25:28] Please do. So with all the scores combined
[2:25:30] JFK averaged, what do you think on Patreon fellas?
[2:25:33] I'm going to safely say 9. Yeah, I'll go 9 and that hits me
[2:25:36] just in case, yeah. Yeah, well, you'd be very right.
[2:25:40] It was a very +9. Right.
[2:25:42] Nice. OK, I was hoping for hire.
[2:25:44] I can see why people maybe not give it 4 marks for one reason
[2:25:48] or another. Yeah, yeah.
[2:25:49] Why? Yeah.
[2:25:50] Join us again in all the right movies and a break from
[2:25:52] tradition. Next Friday, we'll be opening
[2:25:54] our meal bag and answering questions from our Patreon
[2:25:57] supporters. A nice breezy Q&A episode should
[2:26:00] be a hell of a good time. It'll be a great time.
[2:26:03] Nice and easy. Thank God no research.
[2:26:07] Need to stretch out to doing this.
[2:26:12] That will be the four of us on that show.
[2:26:14] And then two weeks after that, the two fellas here will be back
[2:26:17] with John to go to Infinity and Beyond as they deep dive into
[2:26:20] Toy Story. Matt trying to contain yourself.
[2:26:23] Yeah, not even my pick. How was it not even?
[2:26:26] Yourself jumping up all up but like say after JFK, an 80 minute
[2:26:31] cartoon. Yes, please.
[2:26:32] Yes, yeah, that sounds. Perfect.
[2:26:34] It's like a nice warm bath. Also like today is a brand new
[2:26:37] episode of our Patreon exclusive movie review show, The Watch
[2:26:40] List. You're missing out if you want a
[2:26:42] Patreon supporter, so sign up for that and every single
[2:26:44] podcast we've ever created as we are now into the two hundreds.
[2:26:50] Bloody hell. Bloody Ruddy hell, man.
[2:26:52] Bloody Ruddy hell. That is patreon.com/all the
[2:26:57] right movies, and for those that have, thank you so much.
[2:27:00] But if you haven't, please leave us.
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[2:27:12] That's the way to do it. That.
[2:27:13] Easy way in between all of our podcasts.
[2:27:16] We're active on social media all the time.
[2:27:18] On X we are at AT Right Movies where our making of movie
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[2:27:25] the make enough story from classic and hit films.
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[2:27:30] comes from cast and crew or verified by at least three
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[2:27:34] Yeah. Have a read if you don't
[2:27:35] already. They are gold dust.
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[2:27:40] definitely. Definitely true, but just as
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[2:28:16] And our website is all the right movies.com and that is a wrap
[2:28:20] everybody. It is.
[2:28:22] We better head off before the government jumps all over our
[2:28:24] head and goes cock a doodle Doo. Come back next week for the Q&A
[2:28:31] show. Thank you so much for listening
[2:28:33] everyone. Thank you so much guys.
[2:28:57] Back and to the left, Back and to the left.

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