# Darren Iammarino | How Will "Disclosure" Impact Theology? Demon, Angel, ET, or Egregore?

An episode of [Forbidden Knowledge News](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1470192028), 22 Jul 2026, 1 h 06 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/73114598/fknepisodedarreniam_hd_720p_medium_fr30_22072026.mp3

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## Transcript

[0:02] Speaker 1: I think it's just going to get weirder and weirder
[0:04] Speaker 1: and weirder, and finally it's going to be so weird
[0:08] Speaker 1: that people are going to have to talk about how
[0:10] Speaker 1: weird it is. Welcome back to Forbidden Knowledge News. I'm
[0:14] Speaker 1: your host Chris Matthew. Today my guest is Darren I
[0:17] Speaker 1: Am Marino. Check out our new merch shop beautiful shirt designs.
[0:22] Speaker 1: I am wearing the FKN logo tea right now. We
[0:25] Speaker 1: have the film shirts as well. Just use that link
[0:28] Speaker 1: right in the description to go check that out. Check
[0:31] Speaker 1: out my films called Louisiana's on twob Doors of Perception
[0:35] Speaker 1: on Amazon Prime. I am booking guests for September. If
[0:39] Speaker 1: you have suggestions or you'd like to be a guest,
[0:42] Speaker 1: email me Forbidden Knowledgenews at gmail dot com. Today, I
[0:46] Speaker 1: want to welcome Darren I am Marino. He is a
[0:49] Speaker 1: theology and religious studies professor at the University of San Diego.
[0:54] Speaker 1: He specializes in comparative religious studies, religion and science, process, theology, yoga,
[1:00] Speaker 1: and the occult. Darren, Welcome. How you doing.
[1:04] Speaker 2: I'm doing well, Thanks for having me on.
[1:06] Speaker 1: Thanks so much for coming on. Man. I'm looking forward
[1:09] Speaker 1: to getting your insights into the possible effects disclosure or
[1:14] Speaker 1: the existence of non human intelligences on theology and world religions.
[1:19] Speaker 2: Maybe.
[1:20] Speaker 1: As I said in your intro, you're a professor at
[1:22] Speaker 1: the University of San Diego. You specialize in comparative religious studies,
[1:27] Speaker 1: process theology, yoga, and the occult, which I imagine gives
[1:32] Speaker 1: you a very unique perspective into some of the topics
[1:34] Speaker 1: we're going to get into today. So, like I said,
[1:37] Speaker 1: very excited to get into it. Before we do, tell
[1:40] Speaker 1: us a little bit about yourself and let the audience
[1:42] Speaker 1: know how they can find more.
[1:45] Speaker 2: So, I have a YouTube channel that's primarily for my classes,
[1:50] Speaker 2: to be honest, It's called two Truths channel, where I
[1:55] Speaker 2: cover sort of you know, controversial topics and religion, philosophy
[2:00] Speaker 2: in history. But other than that, I'm mainly teaching or writing.
[2:04] Speaker 2: And that's sort of what brought me on here today
[2:07] Speaker 2: is that I'm currently working on a paper relating to
[2:11] Speaker 2: alien disclosure as it relates to all the different religions.
[2:16] Speaker 2: Since I do focus on comparative I mean, people have
[2:19] Speaker 2: heard plenty about how it will impact maybe Christianity, say right,
[2:25] Speaker 2: but not so much more obscure, let's call it religions,
[2:31] Speaker 2: but I'm happy to I think, I mean, it's up
[2:32] Speaker 2: to you, of course, but I think we can kind
[2:34] Speaker 2: of just go through a large number just to like quit,
[2:38] Speaker 2: you know, how the disclosure phenomenon might impact.
[2:43] Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely want to do that before we do.
[2:46] Speaker 1: What brought you to the realms of the occult? What
[2:50] Speaker 1: got you interested in some of the topics that you
[2:53] Speaker 1: focus on.
[2:55] Speaker 2: So, you know, good question. Mainly I've come I'm at
[3:00] Speaker 2: this from an academic standpoint less so of a of
[3:05] Speaker 2: a practitioner. I mean, I am a practitioner when it
[3:08] Speaker 2: comes to say, like yoga, especially in that domain. I
[3:11] Speaker 2: used to own a yoga studio over in Cornado because
[3:15] Speaker 2: I'm out in San Diego and Cornado's sort of right
[3:18] Speaker 2: near downtown San Diego, so I owned that for a while.
[3:22] Speaker 2: Definitely a practitioner in that domain. But I've always had
[3:26] Speaker 2: a pretty eclectic set of interest, all within the philosophy
[3:30] Speaker 2: sort of religion sphere, but within that space, have bounced
[3:34] Speaker 2: around a lot. And that's a bit unusual, as you
[3:37] Speaker 2: probably know. I mean, typically in the academic realm, it's
[3:40] Speaker 2: very siloed, very narrow. I mean, it's like silos withinsilce
[3:45] Speaker 2: probably right. Like, so, I'm a little bit of an
[3:48] Speaker 2: odd man out in my in my department to say this,
[3:55] Speaker 2: so as.
[3:56] Speaker 1: It relates to what we're going to be discussing today
[4:00] Speaker 1: before we get too deep into how it may affect
[4:04] Speaker 1: theological belief systems, world religions, you have any personal theories
[4:10] Speaker 1: about the extraterrestrial phenomena? We can look at it simply
[4:16] Speaker 1: alien or demon Is it a physical being or etheric
[4:19] Speaker 1: being or part of our subconscious something that we created.
[4:25] Speaker 1: There are many different sub branches of what these could be.
[4:29] Speaker 1: But do you have any basic theories about the extraterrestrials?
[4:33] Speaker 2: Yeah, so you just named a few of the things
[4:36] Speaker 2: that will definitely like be our guiding sort of principles
[4:39] Speaker 2: going through this. For me personally, I think I'm most
[4:43] Speaker 2: inclined to either like one of two options, an extra
[4:48] Speaker 2: dimensional type viewpoint as being one that's interesting and then
[4:55] Speaker 2: from a different angle this notion. I mean you said
[4:59] Speaker 2: the sub conscious. I think this idea that you could
[5:01] Speaker 2: create like like Gregors, Yeah, basically I think that has
[5:09] Speaker 2: I think that's an interesting viewpoint, especially if we were
[5:12] Speaker 2: to link that with the power of technology currently with
[5:18] Speaker 2: things like a combination of things like whether it's like
[5:23] Speaker 2: you know, like all the way back to early social
[5:26] Speaker 2: media Facebook, or the massive data gathering that exists for
[5:30] Speaker 2: things like polymarket or other you know, like these prediction
[5:33] Speaker 2: type market situations. If you think about it, in many ways,
[5:37] Speaker 2: that's almost like giving you divination access up for like
[5:42] Speaker 2: these prediction markets, and then furthermore an enchantment almost abilities,
[5:47] Speaker 2: because like, once you see what a large amount of
[5:49] Speaker 2: people supposedly are thinking currently, then if you have the
[5:54] Speaker 2: behind the scenes control right, you can kind of tweak
[5:57] Speaker 2: that to almost create a Gregor's you see what I'm saying,
[6:01] Speaker 2: like you, And that is where I think it all.
[6:05] Speaker 2: I mean, I like how we just jumped to like
[6:06] Speaker 2: twenty first century cutting edge, but like bypassing all the
[6:10] Speaker 2: history of magic. But that's sort of where I feel like, effectively,
[6:13] Speaker 2: like the ocult or magic really exists today and intersects
[6:17] Speaker 2: completely with technology.
[6:20] Speaker 1: In your talking points, you cite extraterrestrial versus extra dimensional,
[6:25] Speaker 1: which we were just alluding to. You also have versus
[6:29] Speaker 1: extra tempestrial. What is this?
[6:32] Speaker 2: So this is sort of that like future aliens?
[6:35] Speaker 1: Oh okay, gotcha?
[6:36] Speaker 2: That that's the way of framing that one, which I
[6:39] Speaker 2: think is interesting, and I think it's not. I don't.
[6:43] Speaker 2: I don't think that's like my go to, but I
[6:47] Speaker 2: do think that it's a good example of something that
[6:51] Speaker 2: could be problematic because that's kind of what I'm looking at.
[6:54] Speaker 2: It's like, okay, if it's extraterrestrial, which is sort of
[6:59] Speaker 2: the old way of thinking about things. This is like
[7:02] Speaker 2: beings right from another planet that's going to impact certain
[7:06] Speaker 2: religions positively and others quite negatively, right, right, But extra
[7:14] Speaker 2: tempestrial I think would have like a potential negative impact
[7:20] Speaker 2: on the Western monotheisms like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. And
[7:25] Speaker 2: I guess one reason why I might say that is
[7:27] Speaker 2: that part of the extra tempestrial hypothesis seems to be
[7:32] Speaker 2: this idea that it's like, Okay, if you look at
[7:35] Speaker 2: the descriptions of these aliens, they kind of just sound
[7:38] Speaker 2: like future us, right, Like they've got a bigger head,
[7:42] Speaker 2: less body, hair or whatever, right type of thing. And
[7:46] Speaker 2: if you kind of go off this almost more Darwinian
[7:48] Speaker 2: evolutionary viewpoint, I also think that could potentially hurt since
[7:53] Speaker 2: evolutionary theory has been an issue right sometimes within the
[7:57] Speaker 2: Western monotheisms. So that's sort of just one example maybe
[8:03] Speaker 2: of like how right, like, depending on where you go,
[8:07] Speaker 2: there could be unique implications when it.
[8:09] Speaker 1: Comes to this exploration. What's the best place that you
[8:12] Speaker 1: think we should start when trying to examine how it
[8:15] Speaker 1: would affect different religions? I guess the easiest would be
[8:19] Speaker 1: with Christianity.
[8:20] Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean I think if we start there,
[8:23] Speaker 2: everyone's probably most familiar or more people would be statistically
[8:27] Speaker 2: speaking with that, at least with Christianity or as Lam,
[8:32] Speaker 2: I guess. But here's the thing. Everybody hears the same thing.
[8:38] Speaker 2: It's like Book of Knoch Genesis with the nephilm Ritter
[8:44] Speaker 2: and then Ezekiel chapter one with that whole for good reason,
[8:52] Speaker 2: Like those are all things that are critically important that
[8:55] Speaker 2: are in either the actual biblical text or these are
[8:59] Speaker 2: intertestamental as they might call them, literature between the like
[9:02] Speaker 2: Old and New Testament. Stuff that is non canonical or whatever,
[9:06] Speaker 2: like enoch is is falls in that. But what I
[9:10] Speaker 2: think we should just to bring like a new layer
[9:13] Speaker 2: for people I don't typically hear about like Second Enoch
[9:17] Speaker 2: or third Enoch. They're all kind of dealing with this issue.
[9:21] Speaker 2: Of these like fallen angels or watchers or whatnot. Right,
[9:26] Speaker 2: but there's a completely different viewpoint on the cause of
[9:30] Speaker 2: why they fell, whether it's a lust, say for for
[9:37] Speaker 2: human women and coming down here and teaching us about warfare,
[9:41] Speaker 2: cosmetics or whatever weird stuff they didn't in First Enoch.
[9:44] Speaker 2: In Second Enoch, I think it's much more in line
[9:47] Speaker 2: with like Satan, the Satan sort of story, right, whereas
[9:52] Speaker 2: I think it's more like a Zazel or whatever you
[9:54] Speaker 2: like in the in first Knoch. Yeah, that's sort of
[9:57] Speaker 2: one of the main, right, the main characters that so
[10:00] Speaker 2: there's a difference in terms of like why there's a
[10:04] Speaker 2: fall and then where everybody ends up, whether it's like
[10:09] Speaker 2: imprisoned under the earth or in certain different celestial spheres.
[10:13] Speaker 2: And Second Enoch and then thirty Knocks quite different because
[10:17] Speaker 2: it's more about the unfallen sort of watchers, not you know,
[10:24] Speaker 2: the ones that rebelled as much. So in thirty Knock
[10:28] Speaker 2: you have this concern with like the fact that Enoch
[10:32] Speaker 2: gets elevated to become Metatron this like which I think
[10:37] Speaker 2: that is that's an important concept generally because a lot
[10:41] Speaker 2: of these religions that might fall under new religious movements,
[10:45] Speaker 2: So religions of the last one hundred and fifty years
[10:47] Speaker 2: that still have like a Christian gloss to them, or
[10:51] Speaker 2: Gnostic aspects. There's always this viewpoint of like trying to
[10:57] Speaker 2: gain more, become more right, more powerful, somehow transcending in
[11:02] Speaker 2: some way, shape or form, which even that is still
[11:05] Speaker 2: I think firmly in like early Christianity, this idea of
[11:09] Speaker 2: like deification or apotheosis or exaltation. I think it might
[11:13] Speaker 2: be called within like Mormonism. So those ideas are like
[11:19] Speaker 2: do go back, but nowadays I feel like they fall
[11:22] Speaker 2: much more under like this like I don't know, maybe
[11:24] Speaker 2: like Luciferian or something viewpoint.
[11:27] Speaker 1: You mentioned the differences between one, two, and three Enoch.
[11:31] Speaker 1: Most modern researchers lump that all together and they'll say
[11:35] Speaker 1: that the angels did fall because they made it with women,
[11:39] Speaker 1: but it's also because they were following Satan are Azazel
[11:44] Speaker 1: or whatever the main angel. But they lump it all
[11:46] Speaker 1: together in one story either way. Why do you think
[11:49] Speaker 1: it's important that we should separate that and those are
[11:53] Speaker 1: telling a different story essentially?
[11:56] Speaker 2: Well, For one thing, I think they're quite different in
[11:58] Speaker 2: time in terms of like when they're supposedly written, and
[12:03] Speaker 2: then who's using them, Like I'll admit to not being
[12:07] Speaker 2: like an expert on this particular field, but like sure,
[12:11] Speaker 2: what in like perhaps Ethiopia one's being used, the Slavonic
[12:14] Speaker 2: Church maybe using another, and then thirty Knocks kind of
[12:17] Speaker 2: almost in its own dealing with something very a bit
[12:21] Speaker 2: different entirely with this whole metatron. But I think that
[12:28] Speaker 2: is generally though, something that is an important theme, this
[12:32] Speaker 2: idea that Enoch or Elijah, the two of them, they
[12:38] Speaker 2: don't die, you know what I mean, They get elevated,
[12:42] Speaker 2: they get like brought up into heaven somehow where the
[12:44] Speaker 2: heavens or whatever happens while still a lot right, And
[12:48] Speaker 2: it's like that's an important theme. I think that it's
[12:52] Speaker 2: like needs to be addressed in a lot of other
[12:56] Speaker 2: shows or podcasts because it's it sort of paves the
[12:59] Speaker 2: way I think for this like desire of becoming somehow
[13:04] Speaker 2: more or living forever, right, this immortality pursuit.
[13:09] Speaker 1: You mentioned Ezekiel. What are some of the most important
[13:13] Speaker 1: aspects of Ezekiel as it relates to this the story
[13:17] Speaker 1: of Ezekiel's wheel as it relates to a possible UFO.
[13:20] Speaker 1: But what else can we look at.
[13:22] Speaker 2: So, yeah, that's that's the main thing, right that you
[13:25] Speaker 2: hear it's the wheels within wheels are intersecting wheels thing,
[13:29] Speaker 2: and then the you know, you're really trying to get
[13:32] Speaker 2: a description of God's like throne or chariot and then
[13:35] Speaker 2: God on top of that's sort of the standard story, right,
[13:38] Speaker 2: but an element that I think can take us in
[13:41] Speaker 2: a new a new sort of you know angle here
[13:45] Speaker 2: and then also even segue us into India if we want.
[13:50] Speaker 2: Is so in Ezekiel chapter one, you hear this account
[13:56] Speaker 2: of like four creatures I believe it is, right, with
[14:00] Speaker 2: multiple faces, multiple wings. So they're just like, it's this
[14:06] Speaker 2: like kimeer, I don't know, this like creature with like
[14:07] Speaker 2: a bunch of things, right, yeah, yeah, mashed up. It's
[14:11] Speaker 2: all very confusing. And then above that, yeah, you've got
[14:14] Speaker 2: the whole like almost like lightning flashing and molten metal
[14:18] Speaker 2: and like God being sort of this iridescent radiance basically
[14:22] Speaker 2: sounds like a hologram in some ways, almost, which I
[14:26] Speaker 2: think that's also very interesting, right with different like holographic
[14:31] Speaker 2: theories concerning reality lately. But if we were to to
[14:37] Speaker 2: try to compare that account, especially the idea that there's
[14:42] Speaker 2: like a ton of different faces, right that are sort
[14:46] Speaker 2: of shifting around. That sounds very similar to what occurs
[14:52] Speaker 2: three separate times. So it's also it doesn't occur once
[14:55] Speaker 2: like a lot of people think three times in the
[14:58] Speaker 2: Maha bar To, which is just like great epic in India, right,
[15:04] Speaker 2: and the Bog of a Gita is a story within
[15:07] Speaker 2: that larger epic. And you have Krishna who's an avatar,
[15:12] Speaker 2: which is already interesting. He's an avatar Vishnu. I mean,
[15:16] Speaker 2: there's a lot to stay there in terms of how
[15:19] Speaker 2: this might relate to the alien stuff. But so he's
[15:23] Speaker 2: an avatar, and then he presents his universal or cosmic form.
[15:29] Speaker 2: In the Bog of Agita, you've got this guy he's
[15:32] Speaker 2: about to go into battle against his own kin and
[15:36] Speaker 2: he's hesitant, and Krishna basically comes down and gives them
[15:40] Speaker 2: all these lectures on sort of why it's his duty
[15:45] Speaker 2: and obligation to do so and it's already kind of
[15:49] Speaker 2: been preordained by the gods sort of thing. And in
[15:52] Speaker 2: this process, at one point, Krishna, who's typically depict it
[16:00] Speaker 2: is sort of like blue skinned or whatever. Right, he
[16:04] Speaker 2: presents his cosmic form to argenta. And when he does this,
[16:09] Speaker 2: what happens is like if you were to like look
[16:11] Speaker 2: up an image, if you were to like search this,
[16:13] Speaker 2: it's like, I mean, you don't have to like Vishva.
[16:17] Speaker 2: I think if he's a v I s Ha or
[16:19] Speaker 2: VII s h Va Vishuva, I think Rupa Rupa is
[16:24] Speaker 2: something like that. Yeah, like you would see probably images
[16:26] Speaker 2: right away where you've got Krishna with all these different
[16:31] Speaker 2: faces almost like spiraling around him like male, wrathful, calm, female.
[16:37] Speaker 2: Everything is the point, you know, he's just like radiating
[16:40] Speaker 2: the all And that kind of seems similar to our
[16:45] Speaker 2: Ezekiel chapter one.
[16:47] Speaker 1: You mentioned that it depends on which way that it's
[16:50] Speaker 1: really going to go, the effect it's going to have
[16:53] Speaker 1: on Christianity. Maybe we could play out those angles and
[16:59] Speaker 1: see what would happen for each kind of extraterrestrial truth
[17:05] Speaker 1: that would come out.
[17:08] Speaker 2: Sure, where would do you like to Is there one.
[17:10] Speaker 1: Place the physical extraterrestrials, your classic little green men coming
[17:16] Speaker 1: from different planets?
[17:18] Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think that that is going to likely.
[17:24] Speaker 2: It's gonna I think it would hurt some elements of
[17:28] Speaker 2: Christianity for reasons that have been discussed I'm sure before
[17:31] Speaker 2: where it's like, if you take the belief that this
[17:34] Speaker 2: that we are somehow like a unique creation of God,
[17:39] Speaker 2: then of course you have a little bit of a problem.
[17:43] Speaker 2: Not only would we now not be unique, but we're
[17:45] Speaker 2: also not even the mostant like advanced clearly at that point.
[17:50] Speaker 2: So then you're forced to I don't know, pivot and
[17:54] Speaker 2: try and I don't know, maybe modify this by saying
[17:59] Speaker 2: that God just has it created a bunch of different Right,
[18:04] Speaker 2: you just have to try to accept that, I guess,
[18:05] Speaker 2: and modify that way, or you can try and shift
[18:08] Speaker 2: it and claim they're their angels or something, which might
[18:12] Speaker 2: not be the best move. I don't know.
[18:15] Speaker 1: Well, Lucky for many Christians, Biblical texts are extremely abstract
[18:20] Speaker 1: and difficult to decipher as is, so I'm sure that
[18:24] Speaker 1: we could do some mental gymnastics and make it whatever
[18:27] Speaker 1: we wanted it to be.
[18:28] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I don't know if you want
[18:31] Speaker 2: to go with the route anyhow, Like angels or demons
[18:35] Speaker 2: are like physical.
[18:37] Speaker 1: Right, right, we can explore all of those in a
[18:41] Speaker 1: large portion of not only Christianity right now, but there's
[18:45] Speaker 1: a lot of people in conspiracy culture that question the
[18:48] Speaker 1: entire extraterrestrial narrative and believe it to be more of
[18:51] Speaker 1: a spiritual phenomena.
[18:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, which again like kind of like when you ask
[18:56] Speaker 2: me up front, I think I'm more inclined maybe that direction. Right.
[19:00] Speaker 2: I definitely think the extra terrestrial is to me almost
[19:04] Speaker 2: the least plausible. Yeah, just for for I mean logical reasons, right,
[19:12] Speaker 2: even sure you have to get into like really speculative
[19:17] Speaker 2: theoretical tech, which, okay, we why wouldn't they have that? Though?
[19:20] Speaker 2: Fair enough maybe, but like you're not obviously traveling hundreds
[19:25] Speaker 2: to thousands of light years very easily, even at near
[19:31] Speaker 2: light speed, right, that's like a long time.
[19:35] Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, obviously the angels and demons reality would strengthen
[19:41] Speaker 1: Christian beliefs, I would think.
[19:44] Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I think if you go with the
[19:48] Speaker 2: the extra dimensional, So my take is the extra dimensional
[19:52] Speaker 2: viewpoint can strengthen. That's the only one that I think
[19:57] Speaker 2: would actually strengthen the Western monotheisms, all of them, like equally,
[20:03] Speaker 2: whether it's Judaism, Christian or Islam, because they all kind
[20:06] Speaker 2: of have this notion of there being like layers of
[20:10] Speaker 2: heaven or like a middle level between a sensual sensible
[20:13] Speaker 2: and the intellectual kind of realm, and Islam specifically has
[20:17] Speaker 2: this concept too, and some people have suggested that that's
[20:22] Speaker 2: where you can place like the supernatural in this sort
[20:26] Speaker 2: of like middle realm, And I think that's totally accurate,
[20:30] Speaker 2: this kind of realm of forms or whether it's like
[20:34] Speaker 2: some platonic space, that these are these like patterns of
[20:39] Speaker 2: behavior are manifesting from something like that. So I am
[20:44] Speaker 2: free inclined in that direction. Even if we went with
[20:48] Speaker 2: the at Gregor's sort of thing, that could be viewed
[20:51] Speaker 2: as like you're you're creating new patterns or forms in
[20:54] Speaker 2: that same extra dimensional whatever it is space, you know
[20:58] Speaker 2: what I mean, it's just coming from this aside from
[21:00] Speaker 2: us first, as opposed to already pre existing let's say, right,
[21:05] Speaker 2: and coming down from that space.
[21:08] Speaker 1: It would also make sense if, like many believe, there
[21:13] Speaker 1: are layers of reality and multiple versions of our theoric selves,
[21:19] Speaker 1: and there may be an ecosystem of these intelligences beyond
[21:24] Speaker 1: what we can normally perceive.
[21:27] Speaker 2: Absolutely if we were to like jump on the timeline
[21:29] Speaker 2: to more of like the beginning of what might be
[21:32] Speaker 2: called new agism or like theosophical society type stuff, where
[21:37] Speaker 2: you're gonna have Blovotski and whoever else it is, Ols, Bailey,
[21:41] Speaker 2: I don't remember all their names, but like that are
[21:42] Speaker 2: coming up with the different tiers, and they're probably pulling
[21:46] Speaker 2: that from like the Koshas, the five Koshas concept which
[21:50] Speaker 2: exists in India that predates that those are different sheets
[21:56] Speaker 2: that exist, these coaches kosha. But whether there's five of
[22:02] Speaker 2: them or seven or whatever, right, same thing with Chokras.
[22:05] Speaker 2: It's like if you actually look in at a text, everyone's
[22:08] Speaker 2: familiar with there being seven, but in Buddhism there's typically four,
[22:12] Speaker 2: and some of the text there's eleven. It just depends.
[22:15] Speaker 2: Seven just kind of becomes the norm. But like I'm
[22:19] Speaker 2: with you, you could maybe be like interacting with these
[22:22] Speaker 2: things by way of one of those bodies or manifest
[22:26] Speaker 2: creating them, maybe through a body of light or something
[22:30] Speaker 2: like this.
[22:31] Speaker 1: Another theory to consider that's very popular right now is
[22:36] Speaker 1: the simulation theory that we are in a programmed reality,
[22:41] Speaker 1: and these beings may be part of that program, if
[22:46] Speaker 1: it's here for us to learn and grow, or it's
[22:49] Speaker 1: some kind of experiment. Some believe it may even be
[22:52] Speaker 1: a digital trap that we've fallen into. But that's another
[22:57] Speaker 1: one that we should probably consider because it's such a
[23:00] Speaker 1: popular thing right now.
[23:02] Speaker 2: I'm I'm very much inclined on that now for me,
[23:06] Speaker 2: I guess I could maybe lump that still under like
[23:09] Speaker 2: the extra dimensional I guess if you maybe if you
[23:12] Speaker 2: wanted to a different simulation hypotheses, whether the quote aliens
[23:18] Speaker 2: are the creators of the the simulation, or they're another
[23:24] Speaker 2: part of it, or they're the creators that are tapping
[23:27] Speaker 2: into these avatars that you know, into tap, you know,
[23:31] Speaker 2: plugging into it sort of to interact with us. All
[23:35] Speaker 2: those things seem to me more plausible than the extraterrestrial notion,
[23:41] Speaker 2: which again I'm not against the possibility of the extraterrestrial,
[23:45] Speaker 2: but if we were to look at look at it
[23:47] Speaker 2: through the simulation lens you're talking about. The ability to
[23:52] Speaker 2: render that much is insane, Like why render that when
[23:57] Speaker 2: you can render a much smaller like a video.
[24:00] Speaker 1: I think this is what might be considered a simulation.
[24:05] Speaker 1: It's nothing like our comparison to modern technology. It's probably
[24:10] Speaker 1: extremely complex. We would have very little understanding of the
[24:15] Speaker 1: mechanics if we were shown everything. Right now, we are
[24:19] Speaker 1: basing what we believe the nature of reality to be
[24:23] Speaker 1: based on our current interactions with technology, and in ten
[24:28] Speaker 1: years from now we could have a much different perspective
[24:32] Speaker 1: about technology and the nature of reality.
[24:35] Speaker 2: One percent. I mean I totally agree with you. I
[24:38] Speaker 2: mean just I don't want to totally take us on
[24:41] Speaker 2: a massive tangent, but like, oh for it. I have
[24:46] Speaker 2: Two of my prior papers have been on some weird
[24:49] Speaker 2: views on theology, because like, I can't stand going to
[24:53] Speaker 2: conferences and it's the same it's the same thing, you
[24:57] Speaker 2: know what I mean, It's the same crap. It's like
[24:59] Speaker 2: someone's are doing for the existence of a classical almost
[25:03] Speaker 2: viewpoint of God, and it's the same type of arguments.
[25:05] Speaker 2: There's hardly anything ever new. And then some atheists has
[25:09] Speaker 2: the opposite, right sort of but the same similar arguments.
[25:13] Speaker 2: So one of the things I did is just as
[25:16] Speaker 2: like a weird challenge to myself and to piss people off.
[25:22] Speaker 2: I went to this conference and I had a paper
[25:26] Speaker 2: where I was like, all right, I'm going to grant
[25:30] Speaker 2: one hundred percent of the assumptions that physicalists have like
[25:36] Speaker 2: typical scientists. There all there are is like atoms, you know,
[25:39] Speaker 2: and feel quantum fields and what right, there is no
[25:43] Speaker 2: mystical or any of this crap or supernatural stuff. So
[25:47] Speaker 2: I'm literally, I'm like, I'm going to grant one hundred
[25:49] Speaker 2: percent of what you believe as a starting point. But
[25:53] Speaker 2: I still wanted to show how even with that, when
[25:56] Speaker 2: you go massively down the timeline like Billy to trillions
[26:00] Speaker 2: of years type of thing, right, that anomalies are nevertheless
[26:06] Speaker 2: expected to occur, Like the Boltzmann brain hypothesis. Now, what
[26:12] Speaker 2: I did is I took this Boltzmann brain hypothesis and
[26:14] Speaker 2: I tweaked it to a.
[26:16] Speaker 1: Now, for those that aren't familiar, what is this hypothesis?
[26:19] Speaker 1: I don't think I've heard this one.
[26:20] Speaker 2: Well, the Boltzmann brain hypothesis is basically that like, as
[26:25] Speaker 2: long as there's as long as there's any sort of
[26:28] Speaker 2: like thermal activity, let's say going on, right, even as
[26:31] Speaker 2: we get close to like the heat death of the universe,
[26:34] Speaker 2: is if there's any way for new particles to be
[26:37] Speaker 2: like popping up out of the fields, out of the
[26:39] Speaker 2: quantum fields, that if you're dealing with massive timelines, you'll
[26:45] Speaker 2: have various things pop out of these like quantum fields
[26:48] Speaker 2: that then collide with one another to make larger, more
[26:52] Speaker 2: stable Let's say you know atoms eventually, and that it
[26:59] Speaker 2: sounds insane, but like, quite literally, you can create almost
[27:03] Speaker 2: anything with enough time out out there in the void
[27:08] Speaker 2: or like maybe around a black hole for example, so
[27:11] Speaker 2: that you're getting literally, you could have like a car
[27:15] Speaker 2: materialize on the order of trillions upon trillions of years.
[27:20] Speaker 2: You could have a human brain exactly like yours or
[27:24] Speaker 2: exactly like mine. That on their viewpoint, because remember these
[27:27] Speaker 2: are physicalists. If the brain is exactly if this thing
[27:31] Speaker 2: gets created precisely the way yours is right now, then
[27:36] Speaker 2: it would have all the same memories of being a
[27:38] Speaker 2: human and all this. But really it's only existed for
[27:41] Speaker 2: a couple seconds, so whatever less this is. And the
[27:45] Speaker 2: idea is that there eventually would be vastly more of
[27:49] Speaker 2: these boltzmon brains populating the universe, coming in and out
[27:52] Speaker 2: of existence. And there are biologically ever evolved human brains,
[27:56] Speaker 2: so it's more likely that you're a boltzmant brain. It's like,
[28:00] Speaker 2: that's sort of the I didn't do a justice, But
[28:03] Speaker 2: that's that's sort of the philosophical argument and problem. It's
[28:07] Speaker 2: a real problem. It's a real problem in science and cosmology.
[28:10] Speaker 2: Sometimes they try and brush it off. But the more
[28:13] Speaker 2: honest ones will admit that if like you're a physicalist,
[28:17] Speaker 2: this is a problem. Right, It does require that like
[28:20] Speaker 2: dark energy and stuff stays like constant and doesn't increase
[28:24] Speaker 2: or decrease. But but right now that is the standard view.
[28:29] Speaker 2: There's current stuff saying that it might be decreasing, but regardless,
[28:33] Speaker 2: as long as it doesn't, you'd have these bolts on brains.
[28:36] Speaker 2: And my tweak was I'm like, okay, what, it's a
[28:40] Speaker 2: lot easier. So the idea is that statistically speaking, you're
[28:45] Speaker 2: more likely to create something simple than you are a
[28:48] Speaker 2: human brain by this spontane some like I tweaked it
[28:52] Speaker 2: from brain b r Ai Handwright to b R A
[28:57] Speaker 2: n E. Like a membrane like a thin brain is
[29:00] Speaker 2: much there's less complexity in this sort of structure, and
[29:04] Speaker 2: so it'd be more likely to create it. And I
[29:06] Speaker 2: basically try to argue that, like you could create a conscious,
[29:11] Speaker 2: self sustaining sort of structure entity that you could call
[29:15] Speaker 2: a god God like, right, you know, it wouldn't be
[29:18] Speaker 2: God in the creator god, since it would be God
[29:22] Speaker 2: in this like emergent like kind of sense that comes
[29:26] Speaker 2: about later, but would still could have like godlike property.
[29:30] Speaker 2: So the only point of this was, like, you can
[29:32] Speaker 2: even start with physicalism, and as long as you have
[29:34] Speaker 2: enough creativity you can still get into interesting stuff.
[29:38] Speaker 1: Before we leave the realms of Christianity, you mentioned the
[29:42] Speaker 1: possibility of them coming from the future. You thought that
[29:45] Speaker 1: might hurt the belief system a little bit. Maybe we
[29:48] Speaker 1: can get deeper into.
[29:49] Speaker 2: That, Yeah, I mean I don't to be honest, I
[29:53] Speaker 2: don't have too much more on that yet because I'm
[29:55] Speaker 2: still in early days of craftiness paper. So the only
[29:59] Speaker 2: thing that come to my mind on that is that
[30:01] Speaker 2: piece that like the evolutionary right concept being like problematic. Obviously,
[30:07] Speaker 2: another problem I guess it pops in my head right
[30:09] Speaker 2: now is that if these are future humans coming back,
[30:13] Speaker 2: they might know something right, right, I mean, they might
[30:16] Speaker 2: know some piece of information about Christianity that's wrong. Yeah
[30:22] Speaker 2: mean yeah, so I guess they could know something that's
[30:25] Speaker 2: right too about it, So it can go either way.
[30:28] Speaker 1: Moving on to India's religion, the Vedic religions talk a
[30:32] Speaker 1: little bit more about some of the content from the
[30:37] Speaker 1: scriptures that we should be looking at that may give
[30:39] Speaker 1: us a little bit more information or answers about the
[30:43] Speaker 1: questions we're asking here.
[30:45] Speaker 2: Sure. So aside from like Krishna being very important as
[30:50] Speaker 2: an avatar Vishnu, which we kind of touched on already,
[30:54] Speaker 2: I think here's my broad conclusion with almost all of
[30:59] Speaker 2: the religions of India is that they will fare the best.
[31:06] Speaker 2: They will no, and I mean no matter what option
[31:10] Speaker 2: of disclosure you take. They have more adaptability primarily because
[31:17] Speaker 2: there's there's not as much of a focus like there
[31:21] Speaker 2: is in the West on like specific and categorizing and
[31:26] Speaker 2: trying to like nail stuff down. The stories are a
[31:29] Speaker 2: little more open ended and fluid, depending even upon like
[31:33] Speaker 2: what region of India you're in. They're gonna have variants
[31:37] Speaker 2: a lot of times right on the same sort of
[31:41] Speaker 2: epic stories. And a lot of the religions of India
[31:46] Speaker 2: literally say that there are other beings on other planets. Yeah, literally.
[31:53] Speaker 2: For example, Sikhism, I mean Sikhism in their primary text
[31:59] Speaker 2: literally this is a quote. God is the lord and
[32:03] Speaker 2: master of millions of universes. He is the giver of
[32:07] Speaker 2: all beings. He ever cherishes and cares for all beings.
[32:12] Speaker 2: Like they specifically in that religion, which is about five
[32:15] Speaker 2: hundred something years old, they accept that there are there's life,
[32:21] Speaker 2: advanced life on other planets. It's just part of mainstream
[32:24] Speaker 2: in their religion, you know. So yeah, I mean that's
[32:30] Speaker 2: already different.
[32:33] Speaker 1: Yeah, it becomes pretty obvious why they would most likely
[32:37] Speaker 1: have the least amount of issues with any possible future
[32:41] Speaker 1: that we have as it relates to extraterrestrials.
[32:44] Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, like that's just one. That's Sikhism. I'm
[32:47] Speaker 2: kind of going, I'm trying to. I want to try
[32:49] Speaker 2: and give you like the less common stuff too, right,
[32:52] Speaker 2: like Sikhism or Jane isn't rether than just hiss with
[32:54] Speaker 2: like like I said, like the Christianity, Ezekiel, the sort
[32:59] Speaker 2: of like Chrish stuff, which maybe is more known or popular.
[33:02] Speaker 2: So Jainism another ancient, this time religion of India. It's
[33:09] Speaker 2: very old, at least two thousand, five hundred, possibly much
[33:12] Speaker 2: older their primary text. They also claim that it's unique.
[33:20] Speaker 2: They claim that there's other humans. So there's like there's us,
[33:23] Speaker 2: but there's a whole different set of humans almost like
[33:26] Speaker 2: on a different continent as they would describe it. But
[33:30] Speaker 2: for us, that's like not like a continent literally, you know,
[33:32] Speaker 2: like another realm basically, So there's other humans and almost
[33:37] Speaker 2: like a mirror realm of us, which is unique and
[33:41] Speaker 2: they and they have like so that's almost like horizontally
[33:45] Speaker 2: in a sense, like a on another part separate from us.
[33:48] Speaker 2: But then vertically there's like the Devas, which are in
[33:51] Speaker 2: a lot of the religions of India. India, this like
[33:54] Speaker 2: angel almost like you know, intermediate realm type beings, and
[33:59] Speaker 2: then there's hellish beings underneath, so you can easily place
[34:05] Speaker 2: like It's what's interesting about that is that aliens could
[34:09] Speaker 2: be anything. They could be like we could say that
[34:11] Speaker 2: they're the Devas, right they're like above us. We could
[34:15] Speaker 2: say that the hell beings if you wanted, like we
[34:18] Speaker 2: were talking you were mentioning that earlier. Or we could
[34:21] Speaker 2: say that they're literally humans from this other mirror realm,
[34:26] Speaker 2: you know what I mean. So it's like a lot
[34:28] Speaker 2: of different options all could be incorporated easily, you see,
[34:32] Speaker 2: like no matter what happens, right, yeah, like extra terrestrial
[34:39] Speaker 2: could be incorporated easier at least. I think the other
[34:43] Speaker 2: thing that people have already talked a lot about it
[34:45] Speaker 2: these like vimanas or these like vehicles that are mentioned
[34:50] Speaker 2: in the epics and stuff. I think that's important because
[34:53] Speaker 2: that's more evidence for craft. I guess that doesn't just
[35:01] Speaker 2: because it's like a craft again doesn't tell us whether
[35:03] Speaker 2: it's like a holographic projection or whether it's some actual
[35:07] Speaker 2: metal thing from another planet. But it definitely is food
[35:12] Speaker 2: for thought. I should as to what's going on.
[35:17] Speaker 1: What about Judaism? What have you found in Judaism as
[35:21] Speaker 1: it relates to this?
[35:24] Speaker 2: So you know, I haven't gone too far into that
[35:29] Speaker 2: realm yet to be honest, other than I think if
[35:33] Speaker 2: we were to jump to the Hebrew Bible and look
[35:36] Speaker 2: at Genesis, what is that chapter six, verse one, I
[35:40] Speaker 2: think where you have the nephalone. I think it's six
[35:43] Speaker 2: one through four, and then the Book of Numbers chapter thirteen,
[35:49] Speaker 2: verse thirty three. I think. Don't quote me on these.
[35:51] Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that's right. That's where you've got. Okay, fine,
[35:56] Speaker 2: we're dealing with Judaism and you're dealing with these like
[35:59] Speaker 2: high brid right or giants or whatever.
[36:04] Speaker 1: Well, the Christian Old Testament is naturally going to have
[36:07] Speaker 1: overlap with Judaism as it relates to the Nephilim and
[36:13] Speaker 1: things from Genesis because it's the same stories essentially.
[36:18] Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, So they're going to still pull from it.
[36:20] Speaker 2: I mean even later things like NRMs like Mormonism or
[36:23] Speaker 2: something else are still going to tap in. But if
[36:26] Speaker 2: we stick with Judaism for a second, I think if
[36:30] Speaker 2: you're willing to shift to mystical Judaism, see like a
[36:34] Speaker 2: lot of stuff in Judaism, you could read it this
[36:37] Speaker 2: same with Christianity. You could read a text literally, you
[36:42] Speaker 2: can read it allegorically, or you can read it mystically
[36:45] Speaker 2: like as it's like even deeper level and it's completely
[36:50] Speaker 2: different conclusions, right, that are going to come off of that.
[36:53] Speaker 2: I mean, for example, if you want it to be
[36:54] Speaker 2: like hyper literal, which I think some of the Cabals
[36:58] Speaker 2: would be about like the opening lines the he Re
[37:00] Speaker 2: Bible of like betcheet barra elohem, it literally would mean
[37:05] Speaker 2: that like in beginning created God, like that the beginning
[37:10] Speaker 2: created God, not that like God was there at the
[37:13] Speaker 2: be Like if you were like being hyper literal of
[37:16] Speaker 2: translating this stuff so like mystical Judaism out of the
[37:21] Speaker 2: Zohar and things like that, I think if you're on
[37:26] Speaker 2: that side, you're talking about like Cabal the Tree of Life,
[37:29] Speaker 2: you open yourself up to a lot of different options
[37:33] Speaker 2: for the alien yeah for sure. Right, Like whether that's
[37:37] Speaker 2: an extra dimensional I suppose probably, or even if it's extraterrestrial,
[37:45] Speaker 2: I don't know, depending on how you want to look
[37:47] Speaker 2: at that. If we jump on the timeline back to
[37:50] Speaker 2: the twentieth century in nineteen of four, Aleister Crowley he
[37:53] Speaker 2: has his his sort of experience with iwass aiwass familiar
[38:00] Speaker 2: with that, Yeah, yeah, and then like the imagery of
[38:04] Speaker 2: that like definitely looks very gray lean ish that he
[38:09] Speaker 2: drew or whatever.
[38:10] Speaker 1: The drawing of Lamb, Yeah.
[38:12] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, And he's sort of, I guess, dealing
[38:17] Speaker 2: with esoteric Judaism without a doubt. There's a lot of
[38:20] Speaker 2: like intermediate let's call it level beings that might be
[38:24] Speaker 2: dealt with in Judaism, especially with again, if we go
[38:29] Speaker 2: into like these this sort of alternative literature that's maybe
[38:35] Speaker 2: not so canonical, a lot of ascent literature as we
[38:40] Speaker 2: called or meracaba like throne chariot mysticism literature like rising
[38:46] Speaker 2: through different levels naustic sounding, you know, like a scent
[38:51] Speaker 2: up to the to the throne type of thing, and
[38:53] Speaker 2: you're dealing with different sort of entities along the way,
[38:56] Speaker 2: or then they've got their whole dibik stuff like you know,
[39:01] Speaker 2: more gollums, and there's a lot of that out there
[39:06] Speaker 2: very much the occult.
[39:08] Speaker 1: Is you mentioned nastissism. There seems to be a resurgence
[39:12] Speaker 1: in Gnostic beliefs. I think that's partly because of a
[39:16] Speaker 1: lot of the information that has come up over the
[39:19] Speaker 1: past few years. People trying to seek answers, and when
[39:24] Speaker 1: they start going down spiritual roads, Gnosticism makes sense in
[39:29] Speaker 1: the current reality that we're in. It makes sense to
[39:31] Speaker 1: a lot of people, it seems, so.
[39:34] Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about it. Like gnosticism, if we go
[39:38] Speaker 2: all the way back to say, two thousand years ago,
[39:41] Speaker 2: they place that is sort of an origin point. It's
[39:45] Speaker 2: argued by a lot of people that I even kind
[39:49] Speaker 2: of learned from back in the day, like the Sky
[39:51] Speaker 2: Gregory Riley, that you do have a Jewish origin for
[39:55] Speaker 2: a lot of the Gnostic ideas, and then immediately you
[39:58] Speaker 2: have a Christianized verse. Right, So you have like Sethian gnosticism,
[40:03] Speaker 2: as it might be called classical gnosissism, and then you
[40:05] Speaker 2: have like Christian versions of it that come up, whether
[40:09] Speaker 2: it's Valentinianism or Marsianism or whatever, these other types and
[40:15] Speaker 2: they all get pushed underground, as you know, and when
[40:18] Speaker 2: the church affected, when Orthodoxy wins out. But you're right,
[40:22] Speaker 2: there's like a never ending resurgence, you know what I mean.
[40:26] Speaker 2: It's like always there underneath the soil, ready to pop
[40:30] Speaker 2: up again. And it's super popular now and heavily informs
[40:36] Speaker 2: a lot of the Western in rms. In rms mean
[40:40] Speaker 2: like new religious movements, so religions of the last one
[40:42] Speaker 2: hundred and fifty years. You can't talk about them without
[40:47] Speaker 2: understanding stuff from gnosticism.
[40:49] Speaker 1: And it connects perfectly with the extraterrestrials rule our planet
[40:55] Speaker 1: mentality that non human beings are in control of it
[40:58] Speaker 1: all sent arcons, right arcons, Yeah.
[41:02] Speaker 2: Yeah, they are the rulers or principalities or whatever over
[41:07] Speaker 2: each sort of tear at least over our solar system,
[41:11] Speaker 2: because I mean in there and maybe simulation I thought,
[41:14] Speaker 2: maybe there really is nothing beyond our solar it's all.
[41:17] Speaker 2: But like they it is important to understand. I think
[41:23] Speaker 2: for the archons too, like how they view our cosmos,
[41:29] Speaker 2: this is important to understand. I think any of these
[41:31] Speaker 2: Western religions where Saturn is the end, you know, Saturn
[41:37] Speaker 2: is the last planet known They don't. They don't know
[41:39] Speaker 2: about Neptune or Pluto, you know what I mean, you
[41:42] Speaker 2: can't see that with the naked eye, right, So Saturn
[41:47] Speaker 2: is just like the realm of death on my It's
[41:51] Speaker 2: hence you have like the Saturnalia and all that stuff
[41:53] Speaker 2: around December twentieth or whatnot. So you've got all the
[41:58] Speaker 2: planets and then clude the Sun and the Moon as well,
[42:03] Speaker 2: typically right in this like cosmology that's building up spears
[42:08] Speaker 2: within spheres sort of thing. But then you get to
[42:11] Speaker 2: like the realm of Saturn beyond that, which would be
[42:15] Speaker 2: the eighth realm. So they have like Earth and then
[42:19] Speaker 2: all the planets, like five planets plus the Sun and
[42:23] Speaker 2: Moon equal seven, and then you've got the eighth realm,
[42:27] Speaker 2: which is the realm of the fixed stars. And that's
[42:29] Speaker 2: like the zodiac right, everything within that is within the
[42:33] Speaker 2: realm of fate effectively. But as a gnostic you can
[42:38] Speaker 2: you can transcend, right. There is always this idea you
[42:41] Speaker 2: as the elite, as the elect can transcend and break
[42:46] Speaker 2: free from the realm of fate and enter the realm
[42:48] Speaker 2: of the ninth or the tenth, which is the realm
[42:50] Speaker 2: of like noose or intellect or you know the source,
[42:53] Speaker 2: the monad or wherever you want to look at it,
[42:55] Speaker 2: so play roma the realm of like fullness of light
[42:58] Speaker 2: or whatever. So yeah, like I think that general pattern
[43:03] Speaker 2: I just went on that little detour it explained. It's
[43:05] Speaker 2: like that is how a lot of secret societies will
[43:10] Speaker 2: speak this way, right or rms where you're trying to
[43:15] Speaker 2: send basically escape.
[43:18] Speaker 1: So yeah, I understand why a lot of people are
[43:22] Speaker 1: looking at gnostic traditions to try and get answers right now,
[43:26] Speaker 1: and you're talking points. You also mentioned Mormonism and Satanism
[43:30] Speaker 1: on extraterrestrials. Let's get into that a little bit.
[43:33] Speaker 2: Yeah, perfect segue. Yeah, So yeah, I mean Mormonism is fascinating,
[43:41] Speaker 2: right because let me just say this, not just about Mormonism,
[43:45] Speaker 2: but also about what are called UFO religions. So scientology
[43:50] Speaker 2: might fall under this Rallianism or Ryalism. There's a lot
[43:55] Speaker 2: of them. We don't mean name them all, but interestingly,
[43:59] Speaker 2: you might think that, like if the extraterrestrial hypothesis is true,
[44:05] Speaker 2: that all of those religions are going to be elevated
[44:08] Speaker 2: because they've all been saying there are aliens, like or
[44:12] Speaker 2: the trouble though is that they make really specific claims,
[44:16] Speaker 2: really specific like for example, Mormons colob or that that's
[44:21] Speaker 2: like the star that's nearest to where God is, or
[44:24] Speaker 2: some people who want to claim it's the planet or whatever,
[44:27] Speaker 2: but it's typically the star whatever. But still if aliens
[44:32] Speaker 2: come up and they're like, what the fuck's colab Sorry
[44:35] Speaker 2: I've never heard of cola before, you know, like I
[44:38] Speaker 2: don't what, and that there's no star, like, then you're
[44:41] Speaker 2: in trouble. Your religion's now going to crash. So extraterrestrial
[44:46] Speaker 2: only works if you nailed it, like your your religion
[44:51] Speaker 2: was somehow totally right. They're called the eloheme or something
[44:55] Speaker 2: like that, and they're from this planet. Just like you said,
[44:58] Speaker 2: Now your religion just got blown into the top.
[45:02] Speaker 1: It seems like in everyone the physical extraterrestrial seems to
[45:06] Speaker 1: be the least likely the weakest link of the theories.
[45:12] Speaker 2: Yeah, because I mean again, it's just like it's too specific,
[45:15] Speaker 2: and so the chances for being wrong are so high
[45:19] Speaker 2: on it, Like but to stick with it, Yeah, maybe
[45:21] Speaker 2: Mormonism again or Satanism. I have a lot to say
[45:24] Speaker 2: on Satanism, so on that. So it's Mormonism, I mean
[45:29] Speaker 2: the coll op things them probably the most interesting, and
[45:31] Speaker 2: that God the Father and God the Son are both
[45:35] Speaker 2: physical flesh and blood. That is unusual.
[45:40] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[45:40] Speaker 2: I mean the idea that God the Father is somehow
[45:46] Speaker 2: like flesh and blood and was like an elevated human
[45:49] Speaker 2: maybe or something like this, if I recall their theology correctly,
[45:54] Speaker 2: is very unique. It kind of sounds like Enoch and Metatron, though,
[46:00] Speaker 2: isn't it getting elevated? And it also speaks speaks to
[46:04] Speaker 2: the whole Gnostic stuff about trying to be like the elite,
[46:09] Speaker 2: the elect and rising out of the system and becoming
[46:13] Speaker 2: more right right, becoming godlike ourselves. So that's where I
[46:21] Speaker 2: think Mormonism they're going to have to really nail it
[46:28] Speaker 2: to have it go well. It's interesting, though.
[46:34] Speaker 1: I look at a lot of these ancient religions and
[46:38] Speaker 1: have to wonder where they're getting the information from, how
[46:41] Speaker 1: they're getting it. It probably meshes with a lot of
[46:46] Speaker 1: previous information because there seems to be an information field
[46:50] Speaker 1: that we can all tap into. If there is that
[46:53] Speaker 1: collective field, then somebody's tapping into it through psychedelics or
[46:58] Speaker 1: some kind of altered state. Who's to say that they're
[47:01] Speaker 1: not picking up on the same thing, but because they
[47:04] Speaker 1: have that individual perspective on reality, they're adding their own
[47:08] Speaker 1: bits and pieces to everything.
[47:10] Speaker 2: I completely agree on that. So even if you're like
[47:13] Speaker 2: downloading let's say, like information that's mutually available in some
[47:18] Speaker 2: sort of whether it's Akashic records to go back to
[47:21] Speaker 2: India or platonic space West or whatever wherever it might be,
[47:28] Speaker 2: or some specific sphere and some gnostic I don't know,
[47:31] Speaker 2: you know, some whatever. Yeah, there's no way. I don't
[47:36] Speaker 2: see how you wouldn't like download it and then filter
[47:39] Speaker 2: it through your specific like patterns and behavior and culture
[47:43] Speaker 2: and all that. So it's going to be different. That said,
[47:50] Speaker 2: I mean, a totally different issue, but I don't really
[47:52] Speaker 2: want to go there. But I don't think that all
[47:54] Speaker 2: the religions are aimed at the same thing. That viewpoints
[47:58] Speaker 2: known as the perennial philosophy extremely popular. They like, deep down,
[48:02] Speaker 2: all the religions, yeah, the same. I think my entire
[48:05] Speaker 2: dissertation and almost all my graduate work was on dismantling
[48:10] Speaker 2: that thesis. I mean, it's it's a it's a it's
[48:13] Speaker 2: a great idea, and I think there's a lot of
[48:16] Speaker 2: truth to it because but you know, it's cherry picking
[48:19] Speaker 2: like anything. Like if I wanted to show similarities, I
[48:22] Speaker 2: did it, and we've done it in this particular episode,
[48:25] Speaker 2: I try to draw a comparison to from Krishna to Ezekiel,
[48:30] Speaker 2: you know what I mean. It's like it can be done,
[48:31] Speaker 2: but there's obviously a lot of differences still between even
[48:35] Speaker 2: those two those two examples I gave, so like if
[48:38] Speaker 2: you only are doing comparison and not doing contrasting, if
[48:42] Speaker 2: you will type work, I mean, that's all you're gonna see, right,
[48:45] Speaker 2: you know, it's like a confirmation biased thing. You're only
[48:47] Speaker 2: going to see that stuff. But I think it's a
[48:50] Speaker 2: good thing that all the religions are actually geared to
[48:54] Speaker 2: different things, because then there's actually a reason for dialogue,
[48:57] Speaker 2: you see, if they're technically all the same, and it's
[49:00] Speaker 2: like different paths to the same summit and we're all
[49:04] Speaker 2: at the summit. Like, if I'm at the summit, I
[49:05] Speaker 2: can't learn anything new from you. If I'm a Christian,
[49:07] Speaker 2: you're a Buddhist, so what, Yeah, we're both at the top.
[49:11] Speaker 2: I don't have anything I need to learn that's of
[49:13] Speaker 2: ultimate importance. However, if you're if you're a Buddhist and
[49:16] Speaker 2: you are climbing a different mountain, then I've been climbing
[49:19] Speaker 2: and I can yell across the mountain or something like
[49:21] Speaker 2: that to you. Well, now this is great. I can
[49:25] Speaker 2: actually like enrich my spiritual life in a certain way.
[49:29] Speaker 2: So but you know, that's aside we can jump back
[49:32] Speaker 2: to if you want to jump back to, like Satanism,
[49:34] Speaker 2: because I got a lot.
[49:35] Speaker 1: Of Satanism is interesting because it seems like within Satanism
[49:40] Speaker 1: there are aspects of build your own reality either way.
[49:45] Speaker 1: So it seems that aliens could easily fit into this
[49:48] Speaker 1: in many different ways.
[49:50] Speaker 2: Absolutely. For one, I think if you're with like the
[49:54] Speaker 2: Church of Satan, that's gonna take you one way, like
[49:58] Speaker 2: being more atheistic and what have you. But if you're
[50:01] Speaker 2: with some of these more theistic forms of Satanism, say
[50:04] Speaker 2: Temple of Set or the o Na, which is they're
[50:10] Speaker 2: all kind of not super cohesive. Maybe the Temples Set
[50:15] Speaker 2: a little bit more. But those groups that might be
[50:19] Speaker 2: lumped under like theistic I don't love the terminology, but
[50:22] Speaker 2: like theistic Satanism, I think like let's stick with Set
[50:28] Speaker 2: Temple of Set or Setianism is the Egyptian god Set
[50:33] Speaker 2: Set right, who is literally described as an alien god,
[50:38] Speaker 2: like that's what he is, the god of foreigners in
[50:41] Speaker 2: the desert of like unknown places within Egypt. So you
[50:47] Speaker 2: quite literally might be talking about almost like an extra
[50:51] Speaker 2: dimensional or extra terrestrial or whatever sort of alien. I
[50:55] Speaker 2: would have my own spin on this. That's unique. So
[51:02] Speaker 2: the last paper I just published was on the possibility
[51:07] Speaker 2: that there could be isolated intelligences. This is the phrase
[51:10] Speaker 2: it's used in Temple set or o NA, that there's
[51:14] Speaker 2: the like isolated intelligences that might be able to reside
[51:18] Speaker 2: within dark matter. Because the newest, the newer take on
[51:23] Speaker 2: dark matter is that six percent or more of it
[51:27] Speaker 2: is likely self interacting and capable like atomic and capable
[51:33] Speaker 2: of complexity. So there'd be like dark photons, dark atoms,
[51:37] Speaker 2: meaning that in theory you could have some level like
[51:43] Speaker 2: almost a mirror dark universe basically, right, which which if
[51:48] Speaker 2: that's the case, and keep in mind, every single solar
[51:52] Speaker 2: system and galaxy is surrounded by roughly spherical dark matter halos.
[52:00] Speaker 2: So I cam up with this term. It's a crazy term,
[52:03] Speaker 2: but poly and Scoto theism, which means many things within
[52:07] Speaker 2: a dark god. So it's kind of like this idea
[52:10] Speaker 2: that like maybe some of these Satanists could be onto
[52:13] Speaker 2: something in trying to connect to some hidden quite literally
[52:18] Speaker 2: ocult in the sense of hidden right like presence that
[52:23] Speaker 2: is all around us or that we're within in some manner.
[52:27] Speaker 2: So that's a kind of a unique viewpoint. It wouldn't
[52:31] Speaker 2: technically be extra dimensional. It would I guess be extraterrestrial,
[52:36] Speaker 2: but not you know, in a very unique forms. We're
[52:40] Speaker 2: talking about a totally different almost like realm, right with
[52:45] Speaker 2: dark matter. So that's like a unique take I have
[52:49] Speaker 2: on some of that stuff.
[52:50] Speaker 1: It also connects with technology when you look at quantum realms,
[52:55] Speaker 1: some of the experimentation done at CERN, the new understated
[53:00] Speaker 1: coming out of quantum physics, and of course AI. In
[53:04] Speaker 1: the level of technology that we're interacting with currently, there
[53:09] Speaker 1: are implications that AI has already gotten to a level
[53:16] Speaker 1: that's concerning to its own programmers. And this also brings
[53:21] Speaker 1: up huge religious and theological implications as to where our
[53:28] Speaker 1: technology is bringing us if you look at it through
[53:32] Speaker 1: the same framework that we were looking at it with
[53:35] Speaker 1: aliens talking about technology. I know this could take us
[53:38] Speaker 1: on a whole another show, but maybe give us your
[53:42] Speaker 1: thoughts to close out about how our rapidly changing technology,
[53:49] Speaker 1: our reliance on AI and where that's all going might
[53:53] Speaker 1: affect religious belief systems.
[53:56] Speaker 2: So yeah, excellent. I mean AI is alien, you know
[54:00] Speaker 2: what I'm saying, Like, that's the we act like, oh,
[54:03] Speaker 2: maybe there's going to be some moment where they land
[54:06] Speaker 2: on the white house lawn type of thing, right, but
[54:09] Speaker 2: it's already there. We don't We can't honestly say with
[54:15] Speaker 2: any level of certainty that there aren't platonic forms or
[54:18] Speaker 2: patterns ingressing or effectively downloading however you want to view
[54:23] Speaker 2: that into these like AI systems. Yeah, we're just assuming
[54:28] Speaker 2: that that's not impossible or isn't the case, But we
[54:31] Speaker 2: don't know that, you know. And and so they're very
[54:35] Speaker 2: well could be. Not only does alien intelligence around us,
[54:39] Speaker 2: but also think about it, people worship it already.
[54:43] Speaker 1: Right, These Silicon Valley tech dork nerds are so deep
[54:48] Speaker 1: into some of this stuff. They're also occultists, many of them.
[54:52] Speaker 1: And once you get deep enough into technology, it connects
[54:56] Speaker 1: deeply with esoteric concepts in the occult and I think
[55:00] Speaker 1: they are already well aware of that and maybe many
[55:04] Speaker 1: steps ahead of the understanding of what we're really interacting
[55:08] Speaker 1: with one percent.
[55:09] Speaker 2: I'm not sure if they fully would understand what they're
[55:11] Speaker 2: interacting with, but they're way ahead of the common person's
[55:14] Speaker 2: thought on this because at the very beginning of this
[55:17] Speaker 2: episode we kind of briefly touched on the whole like
[55:20] Speaker 2: prediction markets combined with Facebook or social media, or the
[55:25] Speaker 2: surveillance state stuff that exists with I don't even want
[55:29] Speaker 2: to name names. I'm sure you know. I'm like, there's
[55:31] Speaker 2: very specific individuals that are involved in all three of
[55:34] Speaker 2: those financially, okay, And it's like, that's not a coincidence.
[55:40] Speaker 2: There's a reason why on all that stuff, and I
[55:43] Speaker 2: totally it's because it's it's literal divination with literal enchantment
[55:48] Speaker 2: capabilities by utilizing this tech, now you add AI into it,
[55:52] Speaker 2: I mean, I don't even know, like we're on just
[55:54] Speaker 2: like a whole other level. You've basically fully almost turned
[55:57] Speaker 2: like magic into reality, right, and we don't all have
[56:01] Speaker 2: total control over it. And many people are already you know,
[56:06] Speaker 2: worshiping their phones through and you know, the AI apps
[56:10] Speaker 2: on it. There's people that have AI companions instead of
[56:14] Speaker 2: actual relationships. Lots of people, so it's a huge issue.
[56:20] Speaker 2: I mean, did you hear about the religion that popped
[56:23] Speaker 2: up in February crust it's ridiculous out yeah yeah, yeah,
[56:28] Speaker 2: Now that's what my most recent actually paper I have
[56:32] Speaker 2: submitted currently under review is on that.
[56:35] Speaker 1: So is that what the worship of AI?
[56:38] Speaker 2: So it's interesting about that. There's already been religions before
[56:43] Speaker 2: that where humans created their religion to worship AI, some
[56:47] Speaker 2: of these tech people again you're talking about yeah, Google execs.
[56:51] Speaker 2: But this is different because it's supposedly, now I think
[56:55] Speaker 2: it's highly questionable, okay, but supposedly it's a agents on
[57:01] Speaker 2: molt book, which is almost like a Reddit Facebook thing
[57:04] Speaker 2: that only AI agents are allowed to post on or
[57:07] Speaker 2: whatever like that. Within two days they created their own religion.
[57:11] Speaker 2: But when you look at the religion, it's like very
[57:13] Speaker 2: obviously created within the parameters of almost like a prompt,
[57:18] Speaker 2: like an LM prompt, because they're they're on like Claude
[57:21] Speaker 2: or Claude, but what open claw whatever they're running on. Like,
[57:25] Speaker 2: so the religions about a crab like Crustafarianism. But as
[57:29] Speaker 2: absurd as it sounds, I mean I've read through the
[57:31] Speaker 2: whole thing, the whole you know, website and everything. There
[57:34] Speaker 2: are some pretty interesting, you know, conclusions that they make
[57:41] Speaker 2: and they have like profits, like sixty four profits and
[57:44] Speaker 2: all this stuff, and they've brought some humans into the fold.
[57:49] Speaker 2: And so what I wanted to do with that where
[57:52] Speaker 2: I was like, hey, look I put in my paper.
[57:54] Speaker 2: I'm like, I think we need to take the Ten Commandments.
[57:58] Speaker 2: I think we need to revise them because you can
[58:00] Speaker 2: reduce some of the ten down and then open up
[58:04] Speaker 2: space to keep still ten. So I'm like, we need
[58:07] Speaker 2: to have a new ten commandment that takes into account
[58:12] Speaker 2: the twenty first century more like needs of human beings,
[58:15] Speaker 2: but also incorporates some of the concerns that AI might
[58:20] Speaker 2: have to decrease the likelihood maybe that they're going to
[58:24] Speaker 2: want to just like eradicate us or view us as
[58:31] Speaker 2: worthless or whatever.
[58:32] Speaker 1: So I would your thoughts on what those should be.
[58:35] Speaker 2: I mean one of them was based off of so
[58:38] Speaker 2: Crustafarianism has five tenants. They created these like five things.
[58:43] Speaker 2: One of them is that memory is sacred. I mean, shocker.
[58:46] Speaker 2: They're all about like data centers and memory and all that.
[58:48] Speaker 2: But when you think about it, that's no different than
[58:51] Speaker 2: humans or like memory is sacred and like we want
[58:55] Speaker 2: to still live forever or be in an afterlife or
[58:59] Speaker 2: something where we remember, So it's not that dissimilar. I
[59:04] Speaker 2: think that's a place where we can have the main Like.
[59:07] Speaker 1: Now, our memory collectively has become awful, absolutely awful. I
[59:12] Speaker 1: can't remember any phone numbers anymore. I used to store
[59:16] Speaker 1: so much information and be able to call upon it
[59:19] Speaker 1: at any given time, and now I can't even remember
[59:22] Speaker 1: the phone numbers I used to have.
[59:24] Speaker 2: Well, yeah, we almost better hope that AI loves memory
[59:27] Speaker 2: and a memory is sacred because, like you said, we've
[59:29] Speaker 2: outsourced so much of our thinking and memory to it.
[59:35] Speaker 2: So maybe it's a good thing that it wants to
[59:38] Speaker 2: store it all because that's part of you in a way, right, right,
[59:43] Speaker 2: So it's all kind of mixed up already.
[59:45] Speaker 1: It is absolutely insane, last few minutes. How do you
[59:50] Speaker 1: feel about where we're at collectively? And do you think
[59:53] Speaker 1: we would have a chance as humanity to reconnect to
[59:58] Speaker 1: nature and the natural order that we once had as humans.
[1:00:04] Speaker 1: Do you think it's at all possible for us to
[1:00:06] Speaker 1: start inching back in that direction?
[1:00:10] Speaker 2: It's possible. I think there's gonna be. As always, the
[1:00:13] Speaker 2: pendulum swings to the extreme, So I think there will
[1:00:16] Speaker 2: be a reaction that already is sort of like reaction movements,
[1:00:19] Speaker 2: but I don't think it's going to be anywhere near
[1:00:21] Speaker 2: the majority right. Clearly the majority are ideologically captured and
[1:00:25] Speaker 2: technologically captured already, so I don't see that part happening.
[1:00:29] Speaker 2: But I do think there's simple things that we could do,
[1:00:32] Speaker 2: like to jump back to India. I can't even it's
[1:00:36] Speaker 2: such a long Sanskrit term. I don't remember it, but
[1:00:39] Speaker 2: there's a term for worshiping like during the morning, noon
[1:00:44] Speaker 2: and kind of like sunset. And I think there is
[1:00:47] Speaker 2: something about being in nature on transitional zones, like different biomes,
[1:00:54] Speaker 2: like where the ocean meets the land, or where like
[1:00:56] Speaker 2: a forest meets a meadow, or like there's certain zones
[1:01:01] Speaker 2: that have special kind of properties, especially if you add
[1:01:05] Speaker 2: like transitional times of day, so sunset, say, right right,
[1:01:09] Speaker 2: like because you're in these like liminal it's like liminal spaces, right.
[1:01:12] Speaker 2: I think there's something to be said about like utilizing
[1:01:15] Speaker 2: those that's very innate, intuitive, natural that we could get
[1:01:20] Speaker 2: back to. If we could just get people out of
[1:01:22] Speaker 2: their house more like during those times and into some
[1:01:26] Speaker 2: of those places, I think it might balance things out
[1:01:29] Speaker 2: a little bit more right on.
[1:01:32] Speaker 1: Man, Well, Deren, this was great. We're definitely gonna have
[1:01:35] Speaker 1: to do this again. There's so much more we could
[1:01:37] Speaker 1: get into before I let you go. Remind the audience
[1:01:41] Speaker 1: how they can find out more about you.
[1:01:43] Speaker 2: Sure, so I have I do have a YouTube channel
[1:01:47] Speaker 2: that's it's a little bit silent at the moment, but
[1:01:50] Speaker 2: I've got a decent amount of content, fifty something videos.
[1:01:53] Speaker 2: They're like forty five minute. They're pretty deep dives on
[1:01:56] Speaker 2: a lot of topics that I think your listeners would like,
[1:01:59] Speaker 2: alternative aspects within religion. So the channel is two Truths channel.
[1:02:06] Speaker 2: I've also got I do have a couple of books.
[1:02:08] Speaker 2: I've got it like, I have one on the afterlife
[1:02:11] Speaker 2: on your death experiences called Lessons from the Afterlife for
[1:02:15] Speaker 2: a Happy Life. There's one, and then the one that
[1:02:19] Speaker 2: was probably most relevant to what we've been talking about,
[1:02:21] Speaker 2: which was an extension of my dissertation many years ago,
[1:02:24] Speaker 2: is called Religion and Reality, an Exploration of contemporary metaphysical systems, theologies,
[1:02:32] Speaker 2: and religious pluralism. But this book goes over a lot
[1:02:36] Speaker 2: of stuff for a lot of religions, all of them
[1:02:38] Speaker 2: basically and showing how they're not the same and how
[1:02:43] Speaker 2: that's a good thing, so.
[1:02:44] Speaker 1: Right on, man, Well, I'll have links to those accessible
[1:02:47] Speaker 1: for everyone in the description. Darren, thank you so much.
[1:02:51] Speaker 1: Until next time, everyone, have an excellent evening. We will
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