# FKN Classics Double Feature! John Michael Greer - Magick | Leslie Michell-Clarke - ET Abductions

An episode of [Forbidden Knowledge News](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1470192028), 6 Aug 2026, 2 h 05 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/73579811/classicsicka_sd_360p_medium_fr30_06082026.mp3

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## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Enjoy these back to back classic Forbidden Knowledge News episodes. Today,
[0:07] Speaker 1: I want to welcome back to the show, John Michael Kreer.
[0:10] Speaker 1: He is a widely respected author and blogger in fields
[0:13] Speaker 1: ranging from nature, spirituality to the future of industrial society.
[0:18] Speaker 1: He is the author of more than seventy books, including
[0:21] Speaker 1: sixteen novels, and blogs weekly at ecosofia dot net. John,
[0:26] Speaker 1: welcome back. How are you doing today?
[0:29] Speaker 2: Doing very well? Thank you. It's a pleasure to be on.
[0:31] Speaker 1: Yes, it's great to have you on. Last time you're on,
[0:34] Speaker 1: we discussed a bit about your book, The King and
[0:37] Speaker 1: Orange and went off on a few rabbit holes from there.
[0:40] Speaker 1: But today I want to go deeper into nature and
[0:44] Speaker 1: history of magical practices, secret societies, and magic being practiced
[0:50] Speaker 1: at the highest levels and how it how much of
[0:54] Speaker 1: an effect does it really have creating our culture and
[0:58] Speaker 1: even manifesting aspect of a greater reality that those that
[1:02] Speaker 1: practice at these higher levels probably want to manifest. So
[1:07] Speaker 1: we've got a lot to talk about. I think we
[1:09] Speaker 1: have a good time. Let's start today with what would
[1:13] Speaker 1: you say are some of the earliest recorded forms of
[1:17] Speaker 1: magic and maybe some examples of those practices.
[1:20] Speaker 2: Okay, One of the problems that we face, of course,
[1:23] Speaker 2: is that, well, there's reason to believe that magic has
[1:26] Speaker 2: been practiced as long as human beings have been around.
[1:29] Speaker 2: We don't have written records from before about five thousand
[1:32] Speaker 2: BC at that point where we start seeing written records
[1:36] Speaker 2: in Egypt, in Mesopotamia. As soon as that happens, records
[1:41] Speaker 2: of magical practice show up. What's their stuff going on before? Then?
[1:45] Speaker 2: Of course? What are there various traces that seem to
[1:48] Speaker 2: be remnants of ritual activity of various kinds and so on. Yes,
[1:52] Speaker 2: do we know what they were doing?
[1:54] Speaker 3: No?
[1:55] Speaker 2: You know, if all you have is the remnants of
[1:57] Speaker 2: a ritual and you don't know anything about the culture
[2:00] Speaker 2: that created other than what kind of stone tools they used,
[2:03] Speaker 2: you're kind of out of luck. As soon as we
[2:05] Speaker 2: hit the ground running with written records in Egypt and Sumeria, though,
[2:11] Speaker 2: magic is in full space, so there's obviously a long history.
[2:14] Speaker 2: Before then, you have Egyptian majors who are doing things
[2:18] Speaker 2: like well, for example, the Pharaohs, the kings of Egypt,
[2:22] Speaker 2: they would wear their sandals, the sandals that they were
[2:25] Speaker 2: every day had the names and images of their enemies
[2:29] Speaker 2: on the bottoms. So they were literally magically trampling down
[2:33] Speaker 2: their enemies with every step they took.
[2:36] Speaker 3: Interesting.
[2:37] Speaker 2: Oh yeah. In fact, the way things were set up
[2:40] Speaker 2: in Egypt, the Egypt, Egypt was full of magic. People
[2:44] Speaker 2: practice it all the time, and in fact, most of
[2:46] Speaker 2: the Egyptian priesthoods practiced magic on their off hours. They
[2:49] Speaker 2: had an arrangement whereby you would do, if you were
[2:52] Speaker 2: a priest, you do one week doing the intensive temple service,
[2:55] Speaker 2: the rituals and all that kind of stuff, and they
[2:58] Speaker 2: have the other three weeks of the month off, and
[3:00] Speaker 2: what you did during those three weeks was do magical
[3:03] Speaker 2: work for ordinary clients, just the ordinary Egyptian citizens who
[3:07] Speaker 2: needed a healing spell for this, or a good luck
[3:10] Speaker 2: spell for that, or what have you. There was a
[3:13] Speaker 2: lot of it, and while we only have modest amounts
[3:18] Speaker 2: of it from the very early times, it's very clear
[3:20] Speaker 2: that all of the basic kinds of magic that we
[3:22] Speaker 2: now know about were being practiced at that point. You
[3:25] Speaker 2: had people invoking spirits, you had people calling down powers
[3:28] Speaker 2: from deities, You had people choosing herbs and stones and
[3:33] Speaker 2: things like that that naturally had certain kinds of magical powers.
[3:36] Speaker 2: And then you had people watching the timing of the
[3:39] Speaker 2: heavens and saying, Okay, when this star rises, that's the
[3:42] Speaker 2: right time for this. So all this stuff was a
[3:44] Speaker 2: going concern. Meanwhile, over in Mesopotamia, over in what's now Iraq,
[3:49] Speaker 2: where the Sumerian civilization was thriving about the same time,
[3:53] Speaker 2: we have an enormous amount of material in their magic
[3:56] Speaker 2: because they wrote on clay tablets, which they to in ovens,
[4:01] Speaker 2: So you have these basically bricks stick one of those
[4:04] Speaker 2: in the desert five thousand years later. It's perfectly readable.
[4:08] Speaker 2: And they had whole libraries of stuff, and a lot
[4:10] Speaker 2: of what they stored was some information on magic. You know,
[4:13] Speaker 2: here are these evil spirits, and here are fifty two
[4:15] Speaker 2: different spells you can use to drive them off. And
[4:19] Speaker 2: here is a spell for healing, and here's a spell
[4:21] Speaker 2: for making people sick, and here's a spell. And of
[4:23] Speaker 2: course astrology that was the great thing in Mesopotamia. They
[4:28] Speaker 2: for as far back as we know, in fact, probably
[4:30] Speaker 2: back before the beginning of recorded history. They had the
[4:33] Speaker 2: common sense idea of watching the heavens and comparing what
[4:36] Speaker 2: was going on in the heavens what was going on earth.
[4:39] Speaker 2: That's where modern astrology comes from. Thousands of years of
[4:42] Speaker 2: priests noting down on their on those clay tablets. Okay,
[4:46] Speaker 2: Mars rose in areas. Of course, they used their words
[4:50] Speaker 2: from Mars and areas, but it was the same system,
[4:52] Speaker 2: and a war broke out. Okay, Mars is strong in
[4:56] Speaker 2: areas intensity. Okay, let's see what happened five hundred years ago,
[4:59] Speaker 2: and then happened and that's and so you had a
[5:02] Speaker 2: lot of people doing stuff like that. So it was
[5:04] Speaker 2: a going concern as soon as as far back as
[5:07] Speaker 2: we know.
[5:08] Speaker 1: I'm really glad you brought up astrology because the more
[5:12] Speaker 1: I look into this and the more guests I have,
[5:14] Speaker 1: astrology seems to be a huge driving factor in so
[5:18] Speaker 1: many things. I mean, even the Bible. It can be
[5:21] Speaker 1: decoded into astrological an astrological book basically. So I'd like
[5:28] Speaker 1: to get your take on how do you think these
[5:31] Speaker 1: ancients were able to basically decode disguise and basically apply
[5:37] Speaker 1: it to their lives in this magical way and understand
[5:40] Speaker 1: how the planetary energies affect everything.
[5:43] Speaker 2: You know, we actually know exactly how they did it,
[5:46] Speaker 2: because again it was these guys in Mesopotamia and they
[5:48] Speaker 2: took notes. Seriously, we have in some of the big
[5:53] Speaker 2: Babylonian and Assyrian libraries, we have tens of thousands of
[5:57] Speaker 2: tablets that are all like, let's see what happened, you know,
[6:01] Speaker 2: such and such happened in the sky, what happened on earth.
[6:04] Speaker 2: It's literally an empirical science. They didn't start with theories.
[6:08] Speaker 2: They started by saying, Okay, what happened when this happened,
[6:11] Speaker 2: what happened when that happened. The king of our city
[6:15] Speaker 2: state has just had a son who is the crown prince.
[6:19] Speaker 2: Here's what the sky looked like when he was born.
[6:21] Speaker 2: Let's see what kind of person he grows up into.
[6:24] Speaker 2: And you start that about say thirty two hundred BC
[6:28] Speaker 2: or before, and you keep on doing that year after year,
[6:32] Speaker 2: century after century, millennium after millennium, you've got an immense database,
[6:37] Speaker 2: and with it a few centuries, you know, you're starting
[6:39] Speaker 2: to say, Okay, this little red, this little red moving
[6:41] Speaker 2: moving star, which we now call Mars, that's associated with war,
[6:46] Speaker 2: that's associated with violence, with forceful energies, with masculinergies. Here's
[6:50] Speaker 2: this other bright one and which we call Venus now
[6:54] Speaker 2: that seems to be associated more with emotions, with love,
[6:58] Speaker 2: with the feminine energies. Wow, okay, what happens when they
[7:02] Speaker 2: what happens when they're in different positions with one another.
[7:05] Speaker 2: Let's see when they're when they're conjoined, when they're square,
[7:09] Speaker 2: when they're trying, and so on. They did it by
[7:12] Speaker 2: patients persistence, bloody minded, stubbornness, and willingness to keep detailed
[7:18] Speaker 2: records the same way that scientists who are honest do things. Now,
[7:24] Speaker 2: it's just that what they found was something that our
[7:27] Speaker 2: modern scientific dogma doesn't allow to exist, and so scientists go,
[7:31] Speaker 2: can't be true. But but in fact it was. It's
[7:35] Speaker 2: an empirical science and they and they didn't as far
[7:39] Speaker 2: as certainly from the records we have. You know, they
[7:43] Speaker 2: didn't do it using oracles or you know, visions or
[7:47] Speaker 2: anything like that. They did it the patient, steady, realistic
[7:52] Speaker 2: way of watching the heavens and comparing it to what
[7:55] Speaker 2: was happening on the ground. Yeah.
[7:57] Speaker 1: And in modern times, you know, astrology has looked at
[7:59] Speaker 1: as a woo woo and all the you know, even
[8:03] Speaker 1: magical practices. But if you look back in ancient times,
[8:07] Speaker 1: it seems that it was just a common thing that
[8:09] Speaker 1: everyone was practicing magic on some level. And that at
[8:14] Speaker 1: some point we snuffed out everything that worked well for us. Astrology,
[8:18] Speaker 1: practice of magic, all these things that helped humanity thrive,
[8:21] Speaker 1: you know.
[8:22] Speaker 2: And the thing is this is really recent, This is
[8:25] Speaker 2: very very recent. As recently as say fifteen hundred and
[8:28] Speaker 2: sixteen hundred, astrology was all over the place. Magic was obviously,
[8:33] Speaker 2: certain kinds of magic had to be underground because of
[8:36] Speaker 2: the Christian Church had its little attitude problem with magic. Yeah,
[8:40] Speaker 2: but you had all this this stuff was all over
[8:42] Speaker 2: the place. But at the time of the scientific Revolution,
[8:45] Speaker 2: people don't realize what a radical change that made. You
[8:48] Speaker 2: had these these intellectuals who had this vision of the
[8:52] Speaker 2: world made completely subject to the human will, the world
[8:56] Speaker 2: as a lump of dead matter that we could do
[8:58] Speaker 2: whatever we wanted to. And they pushed that bin. Because
[9:02] Speaker 2: they had they were able to pull out a few
[9:04] Speaker 2: technological rabbits from their heaths. People bought into it, people
[9:08] Speaker 2: bought into it in a big way. Now we're starting
[9:11] Speaker 2: to discover that there was a downside to that. And
[9:13] Speaker 2: now it's becoming very clear that a lot of those
[9:16] Speaker 2: technological rabbits they pulled from halts had major downsides. And
[9:20] Speaker 2: we're running into those now, and you know, as far
[9:23] Speaker 2: as the astrologers and the majors, well, you know, we're
[9:25] Speaker 2: still here and we'll see what happens. But there is
[9:31] Speaker 2: certainly there. For the last what fifty sixty years now,
[9:34] Speaker 2: there's been very steadily growing interest in magic and astrology
[9:38] Speaker 2: and all these things. And I think sanity will return.
[9:41] Speaker 1: Yeah you, I'm glad you said that too, because I've
[9:44] Speaker 1: noticed it's kind of like a rise of Christianity and
[9:48] Speaker 1: Abrahamic religions and now they're kind of falling again, and
[9:52] Speaker 1: it seems to be a recent thing. What are your
[9:55] Speaker 1: thoughts on what's behind this? What's the driving factor behind
[9:58] Speaker 1: this kind of rise and fall all of these Abrahamic
[10:01] Speaker 1: religions and then a return or more magical age.
[10:04] Speaker 2: Yeah. The thing is history goes through these cycles. History
[10:08] Speaker 2: is circular. It is not a straight line. The great
[10:10] Speaker 2: lie of our time is what I call the myth
[10:13] Speaker 2: of progress, the idea that if we just keep on
[10:16] Speaker 2: building bigger and bigger and louder and noisier machines, we
[10:20] Speaker 2: will take us to the stars. Well that's not happening,
[10:24] Speaker 2: you know, the deal, it's not happening. I think many
[10:27] Speaker 2: many people now are realizing that it's not gonna happen,
[10:31] Speaker 2: not in our lifetimes, not in the lifetime of our species.
[10:34] Speaker 2: We've burned through most of the Earth's supply of fossil fuels.
[10:37] Speaker 2: We don't have me dilithium crystals, find me one, please,
[10:42] Speaker 2: and so on and so basically, history is a circle.
[10:46] Speaker 2: It's a cycle. Actually, it's a whole series of circles.
[10:48] Speaker 2: There are little circles and bigger circles, and huge circles
[10:51] Speaker 2: and gargantuan circles. One of the biggest, if we're to
[10:57] Speaker 2: go by the traditional lore of occultism, one of the biggest
[11:00] Speaker 2: is a process whereby civilizations get into this particular track
[11:06] Speaker 2: of right of getting into technology, getting into power, getting
[11:10] Speaker 2: into trying to run the world, and then that blows
[11:13] Speaker 2: up on them and down when they go again. Meanwhile,
[11:16] Speaker 2: religions are doing the same cycle, religions having about a
[11:18] Speaker 2: two thousand year cycle from the time that they are
[11:21] Speaker 2: you know, the white hot creations of visionary profits to
[11:24] Speaker 2: the point that they're doddering snow. Bureaucracy is going through
[11:28] Speaker 2: the motions. And that's true of Abrahamic religions as much
[11:31] Speaker 2: as much as is of anyone of any other. So
[11:34] Speaker 2: we've got right now, we've got several of these cycles
[11:37] Speaker 2: that are that are basically turning down. At the same time,
[11:40] Speaker 2: we've got the cycle of our of our our series
[11:44] Speaker 2: of civilizations, the one that's brought us to the same
[11:47] Speaker 2: point that the same point that the civilization we dimly
[11:51] Speaker 2: remember the legends of Atlantis reached about what we all
[11:54] Speaker 2: about eleven thousand years ago, and then it went We
[11:57] Speaker 2: know that how that it went down with rising seas.
[12:00] Speaker 2: Does that sound familiar? But and so we also have
[12:04] Speaker 2: this religious cycle and sixty year religious cycle key to
[12:09] Speaker 2: the zodiacal ages, and that's coming down right now as
[12:13] Speaker 2: the religions of the Pissian Age sunset out having reached
[12:18] Speaker 2: the point of being becoming seen. All bureaucracy is going
[12:21] Speaker 2: through the motions, and we have nations arising and falling,
[12:24] Speaker 2: we have cultural movements. All of these things are following
[12:27] Speaker 2: circular patterns.
[12:30] Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Now I want
[12:34] Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about secret societies. Do you
[12:36] Speaker 1: think that when these reformed, the individuals kind of knew
[12:41] Speaker 1: that they were going to have to go into a
[12:43] Speaker 1: state of hiding because of the climate of the world
[12:48] Speaker 1: around them. With these rise of Abrahamic religions and Christianity.
[12:51] Speaker 1: Basically they were getting killed and they wanted to preserve
[12:54] Speaker 1: this in some way. Is that the way it's happened.
[12:57] Speaker 2: The thing to keep in mind is that secretscieties that
[13:01] Speaker 2: there have always been, and there always will be secret
[13:04] Speaker 2: societies anytime that people don't have the option of doing
[13:08] Speaker 2: certain things in public. Political secret societies, magical secret societies,
[13:13] Speaker 2: sexual secret sides. Talk to talk to an elderly gay
[13:16] Speaker 2: man or lesbian sometime about how things were back in
[13:20] Speaker 2: the day before you could be openly gay or lesbian.
[13:23] Speaker 2: They I mean, they had passwords. You you know, you
[13:26] Speaker 2: go into a lesbian bar and you say, yeah, I'm
[13:29] Speaker 2: looking for I'm looking for a friend of Dorothy, and
[13:32] Speaker 2: they'll know you're a lesbian, right, yep, Yeah, So exactly.
[13:38] Speaker 2: It would just like any other secret society, because human
[13:41] Speaker 2: beings are good at secrecy. That's one of the things
[13:43] Speaker 2: we do in every every culture, every society, every age
[13:47] Speaker 2: of the world has these. I would like to see
[13:49] Speaker 2: more secret societies. In fact, I think one of the
[13:52] Speaker 2: one of the things that has kind of gone wrong
[13:54] Speaker 2: in modern times that so many people don't realize that
[13:58] Speaker 2: they could get a lot more, They could get a
[14:01] Speaker 2: lot more freedom, have a lot more opportunity to pursue
[14:03] Speaker 2: their own agendas, their own goals in life by going underground,
[14:07] Speaker 2: organizing these secret organizations and staying out of sight of
[14:12] Speaker 2: the mainstream culture that is not necessarily going to have
[14:16] Speaker 2: their best intentions in mind. I think we need more
[14:20] Speaker 2: secret societies.
[14:21] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[14:21] Speaker 1: I think recently the secret societies that people traditionally think
[14:26] Speaker 1: are you know, malevolent and evil, those have just become
[14:28] Speaker 1: the main extreame, you know, corporatetocracy that we're seeing all
[14:32] Speaker 1: around us, and the real secrets are what you're talking about.
[14:35] Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that's the thing. Secret societies are. The secret
[14:40] Speaker 2: societies are attactive of weakness. Look at any of the
[14:44] Speaker 2: really successful secret societies, and I'm going to give you
[14:47] Speaker 2: give you a couple of examples, not the ones most
[14:50] Speaker 2: people are thinking of. The United States of America was
[14:52] Speaker 2: founded by secret societies. Okay, the Continental Congress or as
[14:56] Speaker 2: it was in the committees who correspondence originally, and the
[14:59] Speaker 2: Sons Liberty or secret societies. They did everything in secret.
[15:03] Speaker 2: They had their passwords and all this kind of stuff,
[15:06] Speaker 2: and they planned the American Revolution, and they carried it out,
[15:10] Speaker 2: and they won. And as soon as they had won,
[15:13] Speaker 2: what happened the Committees of correspondence became Congress, the Sons
[15:18] Speaker 2: of Liberty. We call that the United States Army now so,
[15:22] Speaker 2: and this is generally what happens. The same thing happened
[15:25] Speaker 2: in Germany. In the run up to nineteen thirty three.
[15:29] Speaker 2: You had this organization called the tulegas Chef, the Tulis Society,
[15:33] Speaker 2: and they were It was a secret society, complete with
[15:36] Speaker 2: the passwords and all the rest of this stuff. They
[15:38] Speaker 2: organized a political action wing which they called the German
[15:40] Speaker 2: Workers Party, which recruited a talented young orator named Alolf Hiller.
[15:48] Speaker 2: He said, no, no, you need to change the name to
[15:50] Speaker 2: National Socialist German Workers Party. Why because the National makes
[15:54] Speaker 2: the sound right wing and the Socialist make it sound
[15:55] Speaker 2: left wing, and we'll get people from both sides. He
[15:58] Speaker 2: was right. They ran here, they supplied him, they trained him,
[16:02] Speaker 2: they financed him. And as soon as the Nazis were
[16:05] Speaker 2: in a sufficient position that they didn't need to be
[16:08] Speaker 2: secret about anything anymore, the tool of the cell chefs
[16:10] Speaker 2: shut down. They didn't need to bother be secret anymore.
[16:13] Speaker 2: They simply became many of them people involved in the
[16:17] Speaker 2: Nazi government. Same thing happened in Russia in the run
[16:21] Speaker 2: up to the Communist takeover in nineteen seventeen. What starts
[16:24] Speaker 2: out of the secret society drops the secrecy as soon
[16:28] Speaker 2: as the conceive power. And so at this point, I mean,
[16:31] Speaker 2: you've got organizations like the Council on Foreign Relations, like
[16:35] Speaker 2: the Trilateral Commission or so on, which are the which
[16:39] Speaker 2: are the basically the centers of factions within the ruling class.
[16:43] Speaker 2: But the ruling class doesn't have to be secret about anything.
[16:47] Speaker 2: Why should they, Why should they care? You know, it's
[16:51] Speaker 2: not as though they think they have to worry about
[16:52] Speaker 2: you and me. The secret society, Yeah, the secret society
[16:56] Speaker 2: is the matter at this point. Are the ones that
[16:57] Speaker 2: are being formed by people outside the centers of power,
[17:00] Speaker 2: And of course we won't know much about them until
[17:04] Speaker 2: they start the things start really kicking in the gear,
[17:07] Speaker 2: but we'll see.
[17:08] Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to talk about what's kind of behind
[17:11] Speaker 1: the I guess you could say religion or spiritual aspects
[17:16] Speaker 1: of some of these secret societies. Maybe we could start
[17:18] Speaker 1: with Freemasonry, because there's a lot of misconception, you know,
[17:21] Speaker 1: you hear the conspiracies of Oh that the thirty third degree.
[17:25] Speaker 1: They tell you your worship and Lucifer and all these
[17:27] Speaker 1: different things. And there's just so much bs going around.
[17:31] Speaker 1: I'd like to get new thoughts on what's really going
[17:34] Speaker 1: on with Freemasonry and the spiritual aspects between behind some
[17:37] Speaker 1: of those secret society.
[17:40] Speaker 2: Freemasonry started out a very long time ago as a
[17:44] Speaker 2: secret society keeping some keeping some very very important secrets,
[17:49] Speaker 2: no question, but we're talking the Middle Ages here, Okay.
[17:53] Speaker 2: There's been some very some, some very good arguments made
[17:56] Speaker 2: that the Freemasons are descended from the old Knights Templar.
[17:59] Speaker 2: You you'll have heard about them, those of our listeners
[18:03] Speaker 2: who haven't. The short story is that they were an
[18:05] Speaker 2: order of warrior monks, think the Western equivalent of the
[18:08] Speaker 2: Shaolin monk, okay, except they did it with armor and swords.
[18:14] Speaker 2: But they ended up falling a foul of the Catholic
[18:16] Speaker 2: Church and of the King of France and various other people.
[18:19] Speaker 2: Many of them were burnt at the steak. The other
[18:22] Speaker 2: went underground, and in Scotland a bunch of them managed
[18:25] Speaker 2: to serve Because you know, the Knights Temple had their
[18:27] Speaker 2: own castles, they had their own buildings, they had their
[18:30] Speaker 2: own builders, and a bunch of them who were in
[18:32] Speaker 2: the building trades basically managed to survive. They went underground,
[18:37] Speaker 2: they became mason Stonemasons, people build things out of rocks,
[18:42] Speaker 2: and they preserved certain templar secrets for the long term.
[18:46] Speaker 2: But it was a long time and there was a
[18:49] Speaker 2: lot of ups and downs. I have a book out
[18:50] Speaker 2: called The Secret of the Temple which traces how certain
[18:54] Speaker 2: secrets that they had which ended up getting lost, and
[18:58] Speaker 2: in fact, in modern Masonic ritual I say this is
[19:01] Speaker 2: because I am a Freemason, among other things. In your
[19:04] Speaker 2: modern Masonic ritual, in the master Mason's degree, one of
[19:06] Speaker 2: the major points is the Masons don't have the secrets anymore.
[19:10] Speaker 2: The true word of a Master Mason is lost. Nobody
[19:15] Speaker 2: knows what it is anymore, and part of what you're
[19:17] Speaker 2: doing as a Mason is pledging yourself to try to
[19:19] Speaker 2: find it again.
[19:21] Speaker 1: Now, is it true that there are higher levels above
[19:24] Speaker 1: the thirty three degree.
[19:26] Speaker 3: Many many higher levels.
[19:29] Speaker 2: Well, it depends very much. Hire is a really challenge.
[19:32] Speaker 2: I think it's what your basic structure of Freemasonry is not.
[19:38] Speaker 2: It's not a linear hierarchy. It's not that you know
[19:40] Speaker 2: all the third degree Masons are obedient to the fourth
[19:43] Speaker 2: degree Masons, and so on of and you know you've
[19:47] Speaker 2: got I mean, in the United States, you've got fifty
[19:51] Speaker 2: different state grand lodges who don't take orders from anybody.
[19:54] Speaker 2: And you have the York Right and the Scottish Right,
[19:57] Speaker 2: which are two sets of higher degrees, and some may
[20:00] Speaker 2: since join one, and some Masons join the other, and
[20:01] Speaker 2: some joined both. And if they were to try to
[20:04] Speaker 2: give orders to the grandmasters of the Masonic cologees, they'd
[20:07] Speaker 2: be in deep kimchi. It's this confused, jumbled, disorganized mess, frankly,
[20:15] Speaker 2: and that's one of the things that made that has
[20:17] Speaker 2: made it thrive, because if the grand master of one
[20:21] Speaker 2: Masonic organization gets really stupid and starts ordering dumb things,
[20:25] Speaker 2: you know it doesn't affect anybody else. So are there
[20:29] Speaker 2: levels above the thirty three? Well, if you happen to
[20:31] Speaker 2: belong to the right of Memphis and Misraim, sure they
[20:34] Speaker 2: have ninety nine degrees of initiation. Almost nobody belongs to
[20:37] Speaker 2: it anymore in this country. The Scottish Rite, which goes
[20:41] Speaker 2: up to the thirty third, that's the highest that that's
[20:44] Speaker 2: the largest number of degrees that are commonly taken, and
[20:46] Speaker 2: in fact, at the thirty I'm not a thirty thirty
[20:50] Speaker 2: degree Mason, but I have read that one of the
[20:52] Speaker 2: obligations you take at the thirty third is not to
[20:57] Speaker 2: join any organization that claims to have any higher degree.
[21:01] Speaker 2: Right now, there's a go ahead, go ahead, No, go ahead. No.
[21:06] Speaker 1: I was just going to say that there's there seems
[21:08] Speaker 1: to be this other huge misconception whenever it's surrounding secret
[21:12] Speaker 1: societies and people in power, that it's that when we
[21:15] Speaker 1: look at I guess politics and people in corporation, that
[21:20] Speaker 1: there's this one pyramid that we're at the bottom and
[21:23] Speaker 1: they're the top, but they're all part of the secret organization,
[21:27] Speaker 1: like the secret society that rules over the planet. And
[21:30] Speaker 1: I'm more of the belief that, you know, these people
[21:32] Speaker 1: don't know what the hell each other are doing, and
[21:34] Speaker 1: it's all about greed and what they want for their
[21:37] Speaker 1: personal gain.
[21:38] Speaker 3: Right.
[21:39] Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think I think you're I think you're
[21:40] Speaker 2: absolutely right. The thing that the thing that I've observed
[21:43] Speaker 2: watching politics in business as I do as as astrologer,
[21:48] Speaker 2: among other things, is that it's not a single pyramid.
[21:52] Speaker 2: You've got these different power centers these different groups of
[21:55] Speaker 2: people who have a lot of money and a lot
[21:57] Speaker 2: of power, a lot of influence and so on, and
[22:00] Speaker 2: they're fighting each other, they're at each other's throats, and
[22:04] Speaker 2: so you have this this faction trying to claw their
[22:07] Speaker 2: way past that faction, and this pressure group trying to
[22:10] Speaker 2: force its its views. Well, well, three other pressure groups
[22:14] Speaker 2: are fighting against them, and so on. It's a mess.
[22:18] Speaker 2: And one of the reasons, in fact, that are that
[22:22] Speaker 2: the United States, for example, is in such bad shape
[22:25] Speaker 2: these days, is that there's so much stalemate at the
[22:28] Speaker 2: upper levels. Nobody can get anything done because no matter
[22:33] Speaker 2: what you do, you're stepping on someone's toes. And you know,
[22:35] Speaker 2: the the oil industry isn't going to set, isn't gonna
[22:39] Speaker 2: and the various rich families connects to it, they're going
[22:41] Speaker 2: to stop anything you do in that direction. Well, these
[22:44] Speaker 2: other you know, these other rich families over here, you
[22:47] Speaker 2: better not try that. And so it's all just frozen
[22:50] Speaker 2: up in a stalemate, a stalemate of a bunch of rich,
[22:54] Speaker 2: increasingly senile old men and women who are sitting on
[23:00] Speaker 2: the levers of power and don't know what to do
[23:03] Speaker 2: with them anymore, and don't really want to do anything
[23:05] Speaker 2: with him other than just keep stay rich and powerful,
[23:09] Speaker 2: and you know, we'll see what happens. But that's not
[23:12] Speaker 2: usually something that lasts indefinitely.
[23:14] Speaker 1: Well, do you see a lot of what's happening today
[23:16] Speaker 1: in our current society as that kind of last grip on?
[23:20] Speaker 1: They want to hold on to as much power as
[23:22] Speaker 1: they can because they know it's all falling apart.
[23:24] Speaker 2: Basically, I think that's a lot of it. Partly it's
[23:27] Speaker 2: a generational thing. Previous before the Baby Boomers, previous generations
[23:31] Speaker 2: when they hit seventy ors so they dropped out when
[23:34] Speaker 2: they got into their sixties. They were tired. The Boomers
[23:37] Speaker 2: are clinging to power with a death grip. Partly, you know,
[23:42] Speaker 2: they've they I think the tragedy of the Baby Boom generation.
[23:46] Speaker 2: I'm speaking of my own generation here, by the way,
[23:48] Speaker 2: so I'm but the tragedy of the Baby Boom generation
[23:52] Speaker 2: is that it had these these glorious ideals and it
[23:57] Speaker 2: proceeded to sell out over and over and over again.
[24:03] Speaker 2: And at this point, you know, the sixties were a
[24:06] Speaker 2: long time ago, and the you know, the boomers have
[24:08] Speaker 2: got to be looking back and seeing that they've become
[24:10] Speaker 2: everything they hated everything they thought they were rebelling against.
[24:13] Speaker 2: But for them to retire, for them to step down
[24:16] Speaker 2: and let other generations shove them aside and take their place,
[24:19] Speaker 2: that would be admitting that their dreams were you know,
[24:22] Speaker 2: they sold their dreams, that they cashed out and walked
[24:25] Speaker 2: away from them. I don't think they can stand that.
[24:28] Speaker 2: I think they still cling to that fantasy that they
[24:31] Speaker 2: are the generation that matters, they are the young important,
[24:35] Speaker 2: even though they are a bunch of you know, at
[24:37] Speaker 2: this point, there are a bunch of senial old farts
[24:39] Speaker 2: who haven't had a new idea in forty years.
[24:41] Speaker 1: Well, it seems like at that end they were also
[24:43] Speaker 1: fed a huge line of bs about their own history
[24:46] Speaker 1: and existence up until this point.
[24:48] Speaker 2: You know, Oh yeah, and they and they have and
[24:51] Speaker 2: they have maximized that since then, basically rewriting history to
[24:54] Speaker 2: make the Baby Boomers look like like, you know, a
[24:57] Speaker 2: generational messiah, but over above the Baby boon you know,
[25:01] Speaker 2: because you've got that one generation. But you've also got
[25:03] Speaker 2: the simple fact that we've run, we've pushed this particular
[25:07] Speaker 2: kind of industrial society, this kind of way of living,
[25:10] Speaker 2: We've pushed it as far as we can go. We're
[25:14] Speaker 2: seeing at this point, you know, the bare shelves over
[25:17] Speaker 2: in Europe. They're having another round of energy crises. We'll
[25:20] Speaker 2: have one here in the near future. We've basically that
[25:25] Speaker 2: whole way of trying to live, treating the Earth as
[25:28] Speaker 2: nothing but resources, nothing but a garbage dump, the whole
[25:32] Speaker 2: way of saying we're you know, we run things, we
[25:35] Speaker 2: have the power. You know, we're the tech we're the
[25:37] Speaker 2: technological marvels of the world, and we're going to the stars.
[25:42] Speaker 2: It's failed. It's over. Stick a fork in. It is
[25:46] Speaker 2: that well done, and many, many people don't want to
[25:51] Speaker 2: admit that. Many people don't want to deal with the
[25:54] Speaker 2: fact that we and it is fact, of course, that
[25:56] Speaker 2: we need to stop. We need to regroup. We need
[26:00] Speaker 2: to look at what kind of lifestyles we can actually
[26:03] Speaker 2: support with the renewable resources or what we're going to
[26:06] Speaker 2: have left in the not to distant future, and we
[26:08] Speaker 2: need to downshift big time so that we you know,
[26:14] Speaker 2: but people won't do that. People are stuck on that
[26:16] Speaker 2: myth of progress. They're stuck on that that's that dream
[26:19] Speaker 2: of star trek future metastasizing across the galaxy or something.
[26:24] Speaker 2: Even though we know it's not going to happen. Even
[26:27] Speaker 2: you know, it's been what fifty years now since space
[26:29] Speaker 2: probes came back telling us that outer space is full
[26:32] Speaker 2: of hard radiation and we're not going to We're not
[26:35] Speaker 2: even going to Mars. Because you want to set up
[26:38] Speaker 2: a colony of Mars. That's great. Rite your will before
[26:42] Speaker 2: you go, because you'll be dead of radiation, poisoning and
[26:44] Speaker 2: cancer before you have a chance to get back right.
[26:47] Speaker 2: It really is that serious. And ever since the Sevities,
[26:50] Speaker 2: ever since the US and Soviet you need, both canceled
[26:53] Speaker 2: their space programs because they got that information the space
[26:57] Speaker 2: probes brought this stuff back and they were, oops, well
[27:00] Speaker 2: that's not going to work with it. So we dropped
[27:02] Speaker 2: our moon program, and the Russian simply canceled. There's halfway through,
[27:04] Speaker 2: before they'd even gotten to the Moon, everyone stopped talking
[27:06] Speaker 2: about going to Mars. Accept the myth, except the vision,
[27:11] Speaker 2: the dream, the star Trek fantasy was so deeply rooted
[27:15] Speaker 2: in the minds of the privileged classes. They could not
[27:18] Speaker 2: bear the thought that they weren't going to get the
[27:23] Speaker 2: Flash Gordon future that they wanted. And so, you know,
[27:29] Speaker 2: unfortunately that doesn't mean they're going to get it. That
[27:32] Speaker 2: just means we all have a much rougher future ahead.
[27:35] Speaker 1: Yeah, you're spot on with that. There's a lot of
[27:38] Speaker 1: that though. I Mean the biggest I guess form of
[27:42] Speaker 1: magic that I can identify in my daily life is
[27:45] Speaker 1: actually a weaponized form and it's on the TV. Every
[27:48] Speaker 1: time I turn on the TV. There it is boom, bringwa.
[27:52] Speaker 2: You have a winner you Yes? Yeah, that isn't that
[27:56] Speaker 2: the cheap sorcery of advertising. Yeah, the cheap sorcery that
[28:01] Speaker 2: convinces you that your happiness, your self esteem, your value
[28:06] Speaker 2: as a person depends on running on buying some piece
[28:08] Speaker 2: of sleazy corporate crap. That is sorcery that is, and
[28:14] Speaker 2: that's being blasted at you out of the television, off
[28:18] Speaker 2: the internet, on now, social media, billboards, everything, because you know,
[28:24] Speaker 2: it started out as a way to try to sell,
[28:26] Speaker 2: you know, to sell things at people. At this point,
[28:28] Speaker 2: they're not selling things. They're selling lifestyle. They're selling belief
[28:32] Speaker 2: in the system because the system is cracking. And if
[28:37] Speaker 2: enough people turn off the television, turn off the social media,
[28:43] Speaker 2: get rid of you know, the drop out of the
[28:46] Speaker 2: advertising things, don't run off to the stores to buy
[28:49] Speaker 2: this sleazy corporate crap in question, then the whole thing
[28:53] Speaker 2: comes unglued. At this point, they're desperate, and yeah, what
[29:02] Speaker 2: this shows us is that magic is powerful, but it's
[29:05] Speaker 2: not omnipotent. And in particular, if you realize that magic
[29:09] Speaker 2: is being used against you, you recognize what the magic is,
[29:13] Speaker 2: and you limit your exposure to it and do the opposite,
[29:18] Speaker 2: go against it, make your own choices. Then magic fails
[29:23] Speaker 2: and you succeed.
[29:25] Speaker 1: Do you think that at the earliest onset of the
[29:29] Speaker 1: television and programming that the ones behind and in charge
[29:34] Speaker 1: of some of this programming knew that this was a
[29:37] Speaker 1: form of magic and the power that it could have
[29:39] Speaker 1: on people.
[29:41] Speaker 2: Do you happen to know where the first television the
[29:44] Speaker 2: first regular scheduled television broadcast took place. Who did it?
[29:49] Speaker 2: Nazi Germany before the Second World War. You bet they knew,
[29:55] Speaker 2: They knew exactly what they were doing. And just as
[29:58] Speaker 2: so many other features of the Nazi state were picked
[30:01] Speaker 2: up by the victor, by the victorious powers of the
[30:04] Speaker 2: West and then use it put you know, put in place.
[30:08] Speaker 2: Advertising was one of them. This sort of saturation propaganda
[30:11] Speaker 2: that Hitler the Hitler's regime tested out on Germany as
[30:16] Speaker 2: soon as the war was over. We saw it in
[30:18] Speaker 2: America with the television leading the way it was. You know,
[30:22] Speaker 2: it's like it's like the one of the tricks that
[30:24] Speaker 2: the Nazis used, one of the one of the reasons
[30:25] Speaker 2: they maintained their popularity. Did you know that when they
[30:29] Speaker 2: when they took one of the first things they did
[30:30] Speaker 2: was give two weeks of vacation to every German worker. Wow. Yeah,
[30:36] Speaker 2: that's why that got picked up here right after the
[30:39] Speaker 2: Second World or all of a sudden, there was vacation
[30:42] Speaker 2: pay because what happened was that a lot of people,
[30:45] Speaker 2: and a lot of people in the US ruling elite
[30:47] Speaker 2: looked at the Nazi situation and said, if we don't
[30:52] Speaker 2: do something like this, somebody's going to do the same
[30:54] Speaker 2: thing to us that Hitler did to the German elites,
[30:58] Speaker 2: and we don't want that. So they so a lot
[31:01] Speaker 2: of the features of modern American life where if I'd
[31:03] Speaker 2: copied from Nazi Germany, and certainly saturation television and the
[31:08] Speaker 2: propaganda of consume, consume, consume, that was part of it. Yeah,
[31:13] Speaker 2: I mean, right now, you turn on you turn on television,
[31:15] Speaker 2: you see the the puppet on a stick. Currently in
[31:20] Speaker 2: the White House, you know, And it's it's all the
[31:23] Speaker 2: similarities to to the whole Naza. You got the flags
[31:27] Speaker 2: in the background, you've got all the cameras focused on him.
[31:30] Speaker 2: It's exactly like a scene from Triumph of the Will,
[31:33] Speaker 2: all those those visual gimmicks which you did not see
[31:38] Speaker 2: before then, you did not see that in American public life.
[31:42] Speaker 2: It's all out of that. And that's that's why, you know,
[31:44] Speaker 2: people people go through the motions of pretending that Joe
[31:47] Speaker 2: Biden actually is like running the country.
[31:50] Speaker 3: And.
[31:52] Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, no. And I can see it in
[31:56] Speaker 1: my personal life every day. People that I knew my
[31:59] Speaker 1: whole life. It's like they're under some kind of spell.
[32:02] Speaker 1: It's like they've been brainwashed. They can't see what's going on.
[32:05] Speaker 1: You can, you can explain it, you can break it
[32:07] Speaker 1: down a thousand different ways. What's really happening. It doesn't matter.
[32:11] Speaker 1: They're just you know, they're gone.
[32:13] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, droll puddling in their labs. Yeah, yeah, there's
[32:18] Speaker 2: there's and and it's become more intense and for for
[32:22] Speaker 2: psychological reasons, as the gap between what what's supposed to
[32:26] Speaker 2: happen what actually happens, as that gap has widened, the
[32:30] Speaker 2: trence becomes deeper. There's a thing called cognitive dissonance, which
[32:34] Speaker 2: is well worth looking up. If you know are are
[32:37] Speaker 2: I'm sure you're familiar with it, but our listeners may
[32:39] Speaker 2: not be. Cognitive dissonance is what happens when you believe
[32:42] Speaker 2: that one thing is true, but the experience is telling
[32:45] Speaker 2: you that a different thing is true. If you can't afford,
[32:48] Speaker 2: if you can't let yourself give up your belief, if
[32:50] Speaker 2: you're emotionally invested in that belief, you go into cognitive dissonance,
[32:54] Speaker 2: where you have to pretend that the world is A
[32:57] Speaker 2: when it's actually B. And the bigger the gap becomes,
[33:01] Speaker 2: the more frantic you become trying to insist that it's
[33:05] Speaker 2: a One of the ways you can tell someone's in
[33:07] Speaker 2: cognitive dissonance is that they preach. They're constantly pushing people
[33:11] Speaker 2: around them. You've got to believe X. You've got to
[33:14] Speaker 2: do X. You've got to because if they convince other people,
[33:17] Speaker 2: that helps them keep convincing themselves. And there's a lot
[33:22] Speaker 2: of other things, but cognitive dissonance it puts it because
[33:25] Speaker 2: people who are deep in cognitive dissonance, you get that
[33:28] Speaker 2: trance like effect you get that thousand miles stair good,
[33:31] Speaker 2: that inability to process even very simple arguments. It's just
[33:37] Speaker 2: kind of uh. And then they repeat the same SoundBite
[33:41] Speaker 2: because that's their defense against realizing that everything they think
[33:45] Speaker 2: they know about the world is wrong and that they're
[33:49] Speaker 2: going to have to wake up, shake themselves away, and
[33:53] Speaker 2: enter a harsh new world. And so there's a lot
[33:56] Speaker 2: of that these days. There's a huge amount of cognitive
[33:59] Speaker 2: dissonance in today's America, because the America that's presented by
[34:02] Speaker 2: the media, that's presented by advertising, that's presented by the
[34:06] Speaker 2: propaganda of our society, and the America that we actually
[34:09] Speaker 2: live in are two completely different countries. Yep.
[34:14] Speaker 1: And on the same token, I do see a lot
[34:17] Speaker 1: of people waking up and breaking free from this spell
[34:20] Speaker 1: at the same time. So it's kind of like, you know,
[34:22] Speaker 1: you have both sides of it. People still stay asleep
[34:25] Speaker 1: and maybe even going deeper into their sleep, and some
[34:28] Speaker 1: people waking up from this spell that they've been And.
[34:32] Speaker 2: That's typically what happens as cognitive dissonance becomes more extreme
[34:35] Speaker 2: because it's harder, it takes more and more effort, more
[34:39] Speaker 2: and more emotional investment in in the false belief to
[34:43] Speaker 2: cling to that, and so typically people get to the
[34:47] Speaker 2: point they can't do it anymore and they go through
[34:51] Speaker 2: the the you know, the traumatic experience of shaking themselves
[34:55] Speaker 2: out of that. And this is one piece of advice
[34:58] Speaker 2: I'd like to offer all of our listeners. Okay, if
[35:01] Speaker 2: you get someone who comes to you saying, crap, I
[35:06] Speaker 2: was wrong, you were right, don't nascity to them. There.
[35:09] Speaker 2: They've just you know, they've literally just had their world
[35:11] Speaker 2: turned upside down. You know, get them, get them, buy
[35:15] Speaker 2: them a beer and sit down and let them talk
[35:17] Speaker 2: through it, and you know, give them, give them a
[35:19] Speaker 2: sympathetic year. They desperately need that. And the more the
[35:23] Speaker 2: more people wake up that way, and the more people
[35:24] Speaker 2: are helped to wake up that way, the sooner we
[35:27] Speaker 2: can return to a little more general sanity.
[35:31] Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Now, do you think
[35:34] Speaker 1: that one of the aspects that magic has been kind
[35:38] Speaker 1: of shoved under the car carpet and we're not you know,
[35:42] Speaker 1: been hidden from the American consciousness and the world for
[35:45] Speaker 1: so long, is that there's a free energy aspect involved
[35:49] Speaker 1: that if you know, the mass populace found out about it.
[35:53] Speaker 1: A lot of other industries would be out of business.
[35:58] Speaker 2: I am really, I'm really agnostic about that. Because every
[36:02] Speaker 2: version of free energy that I've ever seen has turned
[36:04] Speaker 2: out to be inaccurate or fraudulent. That doesn't mean they
[36:07] Speaker 2: l are so far, you know, I want I want
[36:12] Speaker 2: to see I want to see working machine. Now. The
[36:16] Speaker 2: thing is, there's another way in which that is that
[36:19] Speaker 2: is absolutely right, which is that an enormous amount of
[36:23] Speaker 2: the energy that we use outwardly is a complete waste.
[36:27] Speaker 2: We can do without it and put the end of
[36:30] Speaker 2: the the actual sources of energy we have to more
[36:33] Speaker 2: sensible uses. And so there's there's kind of a kind
[36:36] Speaker 2: of a symbolic sense in which that's true. As for
[36:39] Speaker 2: whether it's to another sense, as I say, I'm completely agnostic.
[36:45] Speaker 1: Fair enough, now when it comes to the practice of
[36:51] Speaker 1: I guess contact with spirits or even angels or demons,
[36:57] Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on this? Are these really the
[37:00] Speaker 1: like spirits past of people who were living or is
[37:04] Speaker 1: this some kind of energy? What are we actually kind
[37:08] Speaker 1: of communicating with and communing with here?
[37:10] Speaker 2: Okay, okay. The first thing I want to say about
[37:13] Speaker 2: that is that this is not something you want to
[37:15] Speaker 2: do if you're not very experienced. Most of magic has
[37:19] Speaker 2: nothing to do with messing around with spirits, and it
[37:22] Speaker 2: can be very dangerous. So this is, you know, do
[37:24] Speaker 2: not try this at home unless you've got plenty of
[37:27] Speaker 2: knowledge and plenty of experience. I just want to say
[37:30] Speaker 2: that first, Now, what actually are these things that people
[37:35] Speaker 2: contact in rituals of vacation? The only really honest answers
[37:41] Speaker 2: we have no way of knowing. Philosophers have been telling
[37:44] Speaker 2: us for a long time, we really have no way
[37:46] Speaker 2: of knowing much of anything. What we experience with our
[37:49] Speaker 2: senses may not be what's actually there. With regard to
[37:54] Speaker 2: disembodied beings, well, something answers, and sometimes tis what answers
[38:01] Speaker 2: certainly seems to be, you know, the soul of of
[38:05] Speaker 2: a human being who used to live in a physical body.
[38:08] Speaker 2: And sometimes what answers seems to be some kind of
[38:12] Speaker 2: being that is wiser and morally morally better than human beings,
[38:17] Speaker 2: something that we might consider to be like an angel.
[38:19] Speaker 2: And there are such beings who are malevolent, who are destructive,
[38:23] Speaker 2: who are tricky, who are predatory. So whatever they are,
[38:30] Speaker 2: you know, we don't actually we don't. I mean, you
[38:33] Speaker 2: can't exactly apply apply like letting this paper to these
[38:36] Speaker 2: things and find out. That's one of the challenges when
[38:38] Speaker 2: you're dealing with a non physical But one of the
[38:41] Speaker 2: things that we know for sure is there are many
[38:43] Speaker 2: different varieties of these things. They can be contacted. It's
[38:46] Speaker 2: not a good idea to do it unless you have
[38:48] Speaker 2: plenty of experience that they can be contacted, and they
[38:51] Speaker 2: cover a very wide range of types. There are some
[38:55] Speaker 2: that seem to be much less intelligent than human beings,
[38:58] Speaker 2: some that seem to be equally intel some that are
[39:00] Speaker 2: apparently much more intelligent than we are. There are some,
[39:03] Speaker 2: as I mentioned, that are morally are better and some
[39:06] Speaker 2: that are morally much worse. And so it's a very
[39:10] Speaker 2: complicated issue, and it's one that needs careful, systematic, and
[39:18] Speaker 2: competently done work to try to sort things out. One
[39:22] Speaker 2: of the things we know for sure is that people
[39:24] Speaker 2: who just pick up a whaager board or something like
[39:26] Speaker 2: that are likely to land in trouble because there are
[39:29] Speaker 2: again spirits out there, whatever they are, that will lie
[39:33] Speaker 2: themselves in the face. There are things out there that
[39:38] Speaker 2: do not have your best interests in mind at all,
[39:41] Speaker 2: and you don't necessarily want to deal with them, right,
[39:44] Speaker 2: So it's a complex issue.
[39:47] Speaker 1: What would you say some of the most common reasons
[39:50] Speaker 1: that practitioners would contact a spirit or want to get
[39:54] Speaker 1: involved in that.
[39:56] Speaker 2: Okay, well, there are good reasons and there are bad reasons. Okay,
[40:01] Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about the bad reasons first, because
[40:03] Speaker 2: there's a there's a subculture within the sort of pop
[40:05] Speaker 2: a could scene that that has been getting into that
[40:08] Speaker 2: over the last last couple of decades, and it's it's
[40:11] Speaker 2: one of those one of the perfectly bad ideas that
[40:13] Speaker 2: people get into. To actually do magic yourself, to actually
[40:19] Speaker 2: work with the subtle energies, transform your consciences, transform the
[40:23] Speaker 2: consciouences of other people. That is a lot of work.
[40:26] Speaker 2: It requires hard, disciplined, focused work for years. The reason
[40:33] Speaker 2: that people summon demons is they think that's the easy way.
[40:37] Speaker 2: They think, I don't need to do this myself. I
[40:39] Speaker 2: can just command this spirit and make it do what
[40:42] Speaker 2: I want to. It doesn't usually work that way, but
[40:47] Speaker 2: the demon's perfectly happy to tell you anything you want
[40:49] Speaker 2: to hear. And so you get people who are who
[40:53] Speaker 2: they want and view human beings or human beings right.
[40:56] Speaker 2: They want money, they want to get rich, they want
[41:00] Speaker 2: you know, they want to make lots of people of
[41:02] Speaker 2: their preferred gender sexually available to them. They want a power,
[41:08] Speaker 2: They want influence, they want something with tentacles to rise
[41:12] Speaker 2: up and devour the vice principal at their high school,
[41:14] Speaker 2: or something that I seriously early on in my career
[41:19] Speaker 2: as a writer, I would back when my address was
[41:22] Speaker 2: fairly readily available. And this is before the Internet, mind you,
[41:25] Speaker 2: So it was not just people were writing letters or
[41:27] Speaker 2: in their writing emails. I would get letters from these
[41:30] Speaker 2: people who were obviously like fifteen years old, who wanted
[41:33] Speaker 2: me to give them a spell so that they could
[41:35] Speaker 2: summon Zulu from the deeps to devour their vice friends,
[41:39] Speaker 2: their high school vice principle. Wow, And I was going,
[41:42] Speaker 2: come on, it's funny in a certain way. And that
[41:46] Speaker 2: same mentality, of course expresses it self in variance other ways.
[41:50] Speaker 2: So those are that's the bad reason for contacting suits, right, Okay.
[41:56] Speaker 2: Contacting dead human beings is rarely, if ever, a good idea.
[42:00] Speaker 2: There are times it's necessary. When a human soul has
[42:03] Speaker 2: gotten stuck between lives as what we call a ghost,
[42:07] Speaker 2: it can be necessary to communicate with them in order
[42:09] Speaker 2: to let them set them free, to basically cut them
[42:12] Speaker 2: loose so they can go on to the rest of
[42:14] Speaker 2: the afterlife and no longer be stuck where they are.
[42:18] Speaker 2: There are times when ghosts will deliberately seek out people
[42:23] Speaker 2: to communicate to, you know, if there's something that they
[42:26] Speaker 2: left undone in their lives. If you know there's there's
[42:28] Speaker 2: the the last will is still walked in a dusk
[42:31] Speaker 2: or somewhere, and the ghost is saying, look in the drawer,
[42:35] Speaker 2: look in the drawer, and you know the people and
[42:38] Speaker 2: it needs to find somebody will hear it. So you
[42:41] Speaker 2: have these various things, various points of connection. I'm not
[42:44] Speaker 2: I don't recommend the sort of mediumistic spiritualism type stuff
[42:47] Speaker 2: where people are just hanging out with dead folks all
[42:49] Speaker 2: the time. A we don't know if it's actually the
[42:53] Speaker 2: dead people. It might be almost anything, and it doesn't
[42:56] Speaker 2: seem to do anyone any good. But now of angels.
[43:02] Speaker 2: Working with angels is something that the angel magic is
[43:05] Speaker 2: something that a lot of people do in certain classes,
[43:07] Speaker 2: certain certain schools of magical practice, and it can be
[43:11] Speaker 2: very effective, very positive. But the thing you have to
[43:14] Speaker 2: remember about angels that they're smarter than you are and
[43:16] Speaker 2: you can't tell them what to do. Seriously. They you
[43:19] Speaker 2: know that you you don't rank, you don't you don't
[43:24] Speaker 2: have the rating to tell an angel what to do.
[43:27] Speaker 2: But you can cooperate with the angel and receive certain
[43:30] Speaker 2: energies from the angel if the angel wants something to happen.
[43:35] Speaker 2: And so there are ways to participate in that flow
[43:38] Speaker 2: of where they could be very advantageous. You know, the
[43:42] Speaker 2: the divine powers that run the cosmos want human beings
[43:44] Speaker 2: to be wiser and better. If you want to attain wisdom,
[43:47] Speaker 2: you can invoke. You can invoke angels, and the angels
[43:49] Speaker 2: are very interested and helping you become more wise. It
[43:52] Speaker 2: may hurt, but they'll help you.
[43:56] Speaker 1: Now I want, I want you to address something that's
[43:58] Speaker 1: a found very interesting that's happening recently. It's the whole
[44:01] Speaker 1: contact with aliens phenomenon. I know, when I started this
[44:05] Speaker 1: show I've had I had a completely different perspective of
[44:08] Speaker 1: aliens and extraterrestrials and what's going on there than I
[44:11] Speaker 1: do now. I completely believe it's more of a spiritual thing.
[44:15] Speaker 1: It could be something influence, you know, spiritual that we're contacting.
[44:19] Speaker 1: I've had my own contact experience and it took that
[44:22] Speaker 1: to kind of get my wheels turning on what the
[44:24] Speaker 1: hell was did just happen? And I don't, I'm not.
[44:27] Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure little green men aren't coming across the
[44:29] Speaker 1: galaxy to visit us on their tin cans. So you know,
[44:33] Speaker 1: there's something else apparently going on where.
[44:35] Speaker 2: People are making contact, and it has been going on
[44:38] Speaker 2: since the beginning of recorded history. This is the thing
[44:41] Speaker 2: that makes the whole UFO phenomenon so amazing. And here
[44:44] Speaker 2: I want to I want to recommend two writers from
[44:47] Speaker 2: the what was called the new wave of upology back
[44:50] Speaker 2: in the nineteen seventies, Jacquesvallet and John feel Yeah, I
[44:54] Speaker 2: love it. The Mosman Prophecies, when I was a teenager
[44:59] Speaker 2: was one of my fas favorite books.
[45:00] Speaker 3: In the world.
[45:01] Speaker 2: I adored that book. What what Valet and Kiel pointed
[45:06] Speaker 2: out was that the same things that are now being
[45:10] Speaker 2: credited to little green men from Zeta reticular, little gray
[45:13] Speaker 2: mans and data reticuli five hundred years ago were being
[45:17] Speaker 2: blamed on elves and spirits. Yes, and if you go
[45:21] Speaker 2: to every part of the world, you find stories about
[45:23] Speaker 2: little little people who can mess with your mind, who
[45:27] Speaker 2: will communicate with you, maybe who may abduct you. That
[45:31] Speaker 2: you know these things. This, this is a normal part
[45:36] Speaker 2: of existence on this world. We share this world with
[45:40] Speaker 2: other intelligences, something that majes of you know, practice of
[45:43] Speaker 2: magic have been saying all along, and the traditional traditional
[45:47] Speaker 2: cultures have said along there there are these things which
[45:49] Speaker 2: are not not quite physical as we know, as we
[45:53] Speaker 2: know physical matter that interact with us. And it's really
[45:57] Speaker 2: funny to watch the transformation where up until nineteen forty
[46:03] Speaker 2: seven these things took various other forms, and then as
[46:07] Speaker 2: science fiction became more popular, and then you had the
[46:11] Speaker 2: first big UFO flap in nineteen forty seven, and you
[46:14] Speaker 2: had a lot of occultists. You had a lot of
[46:15] Speaker 2: people who were deeply involved in occult practices who were
[46:18] Speaker 2: also very heavily involved in the early UFO scene. George
[46:23] Speaker 2: Adamsky is a great example. He was one of the
[46:26] Speaker 2: early contactees. He published hugely influential books about about UFOs
[46:32] Speaker 2: and so on. Before then, he ran an organization called
[46:35] Speaker 2: the Royal Order of Tibet, which was in occult school
[46:38] Speaker 2: teaching magic in Los Angeles, California. I've seen some of
[46:41] Speaker 2: their correspondence courses, the kind of interesting stuff. But yeah,
[46:45] Speaker 2: he was deeply involved in Georgia van Tassel was deeply
[46:49] Speaker 2: involved with Georghan Williamson, another major. All of these people
[46:53] Speaker 2: who were really influential in the early period of the
[46:56] Speaker 2: UFO scene, they came to it out of the occult scene.
[47:03] Speaker 2: And so one of the things, I actually have a
[47:05] Speaker 2: book on the subject, which if you're interested, I'll see
[47:08] Speaker 2: if I can get I can get shake a copy
[47:10] Speaker 2: loose from my publisher called The UFO Chronicles, which is
[47:14] Speaker 2: talking about the role. It's a The UFO story is complicated.
[47:18] Speaker 2: There are lots of different games being played there, and
[47:19] Speaker 2: I think we can have an interesting conversation. But one
[47:23] Speaker 2: of the things that was going on there is that
[47:25] Speaker 2: a lot of people in the occult scene wanted to
[47:29] Speaker 2: create the idea that we were being watched from outer
[47:32] Speaker 2: space because they were terrified of the risk of nuclear war.
[47:37] Speaker 2: Ah and all of the early Saucer contactees, all of
[47:43] Speaker 2: the aliens were saying, we're very concerned about your planets
[47:47] Speaker 2: building these nuclear weapons. You remember, and that plan Night
[47:51] Speaker 2: from Outer Space the stupidest movie ever made. Okay, watch
[47:54] Speaker 2: it if you have not had it. If you have
[47:56] Speaker 2: not watched it, you are missing a treat. There are
[47:59] Speaker 2: drinking games. But we don't have to go into that,
[48:02] Speaker 2: but plan from outer space. That's one of his basic themes.
[48:05] Speaker 2: All the day the Earth stood still, all this whole
[48:09] Speaker 2: idea was to make people go, hold it. What if
[48:12] Speaker 2: we're being watched by Martians and they realize what a
[48:15] Speaker 2: bunch of idiots were being. Yes, but that was one
[48:19] Speaker 2: of the things going on. Yeah, but the thing is
[48:22] Speaker 2: more generally, Yeah, if you take contact the accounts, you
[48:25] Speaker 2: take abductee accounts, you take those and you compare them
[48:28] Speaker 2: to shamanic experiences, to experiences from the Middle Ages of
[48:34] Speaker 2: people having encounters with elves and things like that, and
[48:38] Speaker 2: it's obviously the same experience. So yeah, these are these
[48:42] Speaker 2: are spiritual entities. They are not little green men or
[48:45] Speaker 2: little gray men from Zeno reticuli.
[48:47] Speaker 1: Right.
[48:48] Speaker 2: They are they are. They are non physical beings who
[48:51] Speaker 2: with whom human beings have interacted since the daunt of time.
[48:54] Speaker 1: And it's funny how everyone's experience is completely different, may
[48:58] Speaker 1: have a few similarities here in there. And what we
[49:01] Speaker 1: see in the sky has changed throughout the years. You know,
[49:04] Speaker 1: it used to be what like airships or saucers. Now
[49:06] Speaker 1: they're little plasma balls and just more advanced type of things. Yeah,
[49:11] Speaker 1: it changes with our consciousness, it seems it partially.
[49:13] Speaker 2: It changes with our conscience. But there's another factor here,
[49:16] Speaker 2: and is this actually ties into magic in a certain way,
[49:19] Speaker 2: because there's the if you track what's going on, say,
[49:23] Speaker 2: start from nineteen forty seven, where these little silver dots
[49:27] Speaker 2: were seen and photographed in the sky. Then you get
[49:30] Speaker 2: a little later into the early nineteen fifties where these
[49:33] Speaker 2: these points of light are buzzing around at certain times
[49:35] Speaker 2: at certain places, and thinks this happens, this happens by
[49:39] Speaker 2: the nineteen eighties, all of a sudden, it's black triangles
[49:43] Speaker 2: and so on. What you find is if you look
[49:48] Speaker 2: at what experimental secret craft the US Air Force was
[49:52] Speaker 2: testing at that time. Gosh, in nineteen forty seven, high
[49:58] Speaker 2: altitude balloons, which will like silver dots for a distance.
[50:02] Speaker 2: In the nineteen fifties, you two and SR seventy one
[50:05] Speaker 2: spyplane flights and the earliest generation to spy satellites black triangles.
[50:09] Speaker 2: What were we testing in the nineteen eighties that looked
[50:12] Speaker 2: like a black triangle? I wonder what it's called stealth?
[50:18] Speaker 2: All the way through. One of the other things that
[50:21] Speaker 2: has been going on with the whole UFO thing is
[50:23] Speaker 2: the US Air Force has been using it as camouflage
[50:26] Speaker 2: for its secret airplane activities. And we're not talking like
[50:30] Speaker 2: these sort of exotic nonsense that the UFO scene life's
[50:34] Speaker 2: talking about. We're not talking, you know, captured flying sauce.
[50:36] Speaker 1: So we haven't reverse engineered the little Green manship.
[50:40] Speaker 2: No, no, it would be nice if we had, but
[50:42] Speaker 2: unfortunately there don't seem to have been any Little Green
[50:45] Speaker 2: ship but the starting with the Roswell crash, which they announced,
[50:52] Speaker 2: oh it's weather balloons, and no, no, it's it's it's
[50:54] Speaker 2: alien things. We don't want the Russians to know that
[50:57] Speaker 2: we're testing on high altitude balloon technology that we literally
[51:00] Speaker 2: fly across the Soviet Union from end to end, which
[51:03] Speaker 2: we did, by the way, before we had good spyplanes.
[51:06] Speaker 2: That's how we took pictures of their installations. And you know,
[51:11] Speaker 2: and so there was this whole business with the Air
[51:14] Speaker 2: Force feeding the UFO frenzy and shaping the UFO frenzy.
[51:18] Speaker 2: How many big UFO revelations came from supposedly, you know,
[51:24] Speaker 2: these these renegade groups of Air Force officers who were
[51:28] Speaker 2: letting the truth out. I bet they've sat around laughing
[51:32] Speaker 2: themselves sick watching how readily people believe that when a
[51:35] Speaker 2: government employee tells you, here's the real truth that I'm
[51:38] Speaker 2: letting out, you know he's lying. Okay, just assume as
[51:42] Speaker 2: a matter of course he's lying. He is gaining you.
[51:46] Speaker 2: What he hands you has been cleared by his higher
[51:49] Speaker 2: officers because it's what they want you to believe.
[51:51] Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, when it comes to the whole I guess
[51:57] Speaker 1: kind of narrative of et human contact. One of the
[52:00] Speaker 1: big things lately is that we were genetically engineered by aliens.
[52:04] Speaker 1: That's how we had this huge advancement in human thought
[52:08] Speaker 1: and technology, and you know, they've been advancing us throughout
[52:11] Speaker 1: the years now. I do find it interesting how we
[52:14] Speaker 1: have had these you know, jumps in advancement and technology
[52:17] Speaker 1: and human you know, ingenuity and all these things that
[52:21] Speaker 1: have happened from ancient times to today where it seems like,
[52:24] Speaker 1: all of a sudden, we just have all these new
[52:26] Speaker 1: technologies and we're able to do these fantastic things. I
[52:29] Speaker 1: want to get your thoughts on do you think this
[52:31] Speaker 1: could be a spiritual phenomenon where we could be making
[52:34] Speaker 1: kind of contact with something else To get this information
[52:37] Speaker 1: on how to.
[52:37] Speaker 2: Do this well. There are a couple of factors involved.
[52:40] Speaker 2: The first of all is the first thing is that
[52:43] Speaker 2: the modern version of human history is frankly a croc.
[52:47] Speaker 2: The idea is that human beings sat around in caves
[52:52] Speaker 2: doing almost nothing for what about two million years? Yeah,
[52:56] Speaker 2: and then five thousand years ago we suddenly shook ourselves,
[52:58] Speaker 2: so wow, what are we thinking? And created civilization and
[53:03] Speaker 2: went in five thousand years from mud huts to the
[53:05] Speaker 2: moon without doing anything else before then for that whole
[53:09] Speaker 2: two millions. Now, the tradition in you know, in the
[53:12] Speaker 2: occult schools, is that that's not true, that there have
[53:16] Speaker 2: been multiple major civilizations before hours, that ours is not
[53:21] Speaker 2: ours is actually the fifth civilization to reach this level
[53:25] Speaker 2: of advancement and then destroy itself, and that what was
[53:30] Speaker 2: going on during those two million years with civilizations would rise,
[53:35] Speaker 2: they would develop their own advanced technology it's not the
[53:38] Speaker 2: same as ours, everyone has its own, and then run
[53:42] Speaker 2: themselves into crisis and one way or another collapse, and
[53:47] Speaker 2: then you'd have this long period of chaos and confusion
[53:51] Speaker 2: and violence and difficulty, and out of which after thousands
[53:54] Speaker 2: of years, new civilizations would be into our rise so
[53:59] Speaker 2: on the one hand, you know, it wasn't just that
[54:02] Speaker 2: we were sitting around doing nothing for two million years
[54:04] Speaker 2: until some aliens or spirits came, and it's that What
[54:09] Speaker 2: happened about five thousand years ago is that we finally
[54:11] Speaker 2: finished clearing away the wreckage from the collapse of the
[54:15] Speaker 2: last major global civilization. And since then we've been kind
[54:19] Speaker 2: of picking up the pieces and rebuilding. And it's entirely
[54:22] Speaker 2: possible that scraps of knowledge had survived from some of
[54:25] Speaker 2: these older civilizations, and that was one of the things
[54:28] Speaker 2: that helped drive these sudden bursts of ingenuity. Also, the
[54:32] Speaker 2: thing is, human beings are very clever. If they had
[54:35] Speaker 2: access to resources, they'll do remarkable things with it. We
[54:38] Speaker 2: still don't know some of these things were made, some
[54:40] Speaker 2: of these things in the ancient world. Yeah, you've try,
[54:44] Speaker 2: you know, to talk to a contractor if you know one,
[54:47] Speaker 2: and you say, okay, here are your specifications for the
[54:51] Speaker 2: Great Pyramid? Can you build it?
[54:53] Speaker 3: Yeah?
[54:53] Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly, And yet the egyptience did.
[54:58] Speaker 3: So.
[54:58] Speaker 2: The thing is, human beings are very clever. Was there,
[55:01] Speaker 2: you know, were there possible contracts with spiritual beings? Were there?
[55:04] Speaker 2: I don't know's it's entirely possible. But I think also
[55:08] Speaker 2: a lot of it was simply a matter of picking
[55:10] Speaker 2: up the pieces from the last cycle of civilization and going, okay,
[55:17] Speaker 2: let's try that camera.
[55:19] Speaker 1: Yeah, man, I love it. Such a such a great
[55:22] Speaker 1: realistic look at some of this stuff. We're definitely gonna
[55:25] Speaker 1: have to have you back on to talk about this.
[55:27] Speaker 1: And yeah, I'd definitely love to get that book and
[55:30] Speaker 1: discuss more about that because that's fascinating.
[55:32] Speaker 2: I will I will talk to my publisher and see
[55:34] Speaker 2: if I can get you a copy of the of
[55:36] Speaker 2: the UFO Chronicles. It's it's selling quite well, so I
[55:39] Speaker 2: think it will be I think it should be fairly
[55:41] Speaker 2: easy to do that.
[55:42] Speaker 3: That's great.
[55:43] Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much again John for coming on.
[55:46] Speaker 1: Fantastic information as usual, and uh, for those that would
[55:50] Speaker 1: like to find out more about your books, the best
[55:52] Speaker 1: way is Amazon and your website. What was your website again.
[55:56] Speaker 2: Said is Ecosphia, not at E C O S O
[55:58] Speaker 2: P H I A dot. I also have a store
[56:03] Speaker 2: on bookshop dot org that if you go to bookshop
[56:07] Speaker 2: dot org and my name, you will find my bookstore.
[56:10] Speaker 1: Excellent, excellent. Well, thank you so much again, John. We'll
[56:13] Speaker 1: definitely be talking to you again in the future.
[56:15] Speaker 2: Yeah, I look forward to it.
[56:17] Speaker 1: Tonight, I want to welcome Leslie Michelle Clark. She is
[56:20] Speaker 1: a Toronto based certified clinical hypnotherapist who specializes in a
[56:25] Speaker 1: number of modalities, including working with individuals who feel they
[56:29] Speaker 1: have had experiences with extraterrestrial beings. She is also a
[56:33] Speaker 1: busy arts writer, contributing regularly to a variety of publications. Leslie, welcome.
[56:40] Speaker 1: How are you doing tonight?
[56:41] Speaker 3: Oh, Chris, I am so pleased to be here, and
[56:44] Speaker 3: I just want to say a big hello to all
[56:47] Speaker 3: the wonderful people not only in your hood in Colorado,
[56:51] Speaker 3: but certainly throughout your huge fan base. I'm very honored
[56:55] Speaker 3: to be here and so pleased to talk about you know,
[56:58] Speaker 3: whatever you want to talk about.
[57:00] Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we're gonna have some fun. We're going to
[57:02] Speaker 1: talk about lots of stuff. And I enjoy, really enjoy
[57:05] Speaker 1: talking with guests like yourself, because it helps the audience
[57:09] Speaker 1: not only get a bigger picture of what people experience
[57:13] Speaker 1: during these events paranormal contact subductions, but not only that,
[57:19] Speaker 1: but possibly get some kind of understanding of why this
[57:22] Speaker 1: is occurring and who these beings may be. Now this
[57:26] Speaker 1: is your first time on the show. I'd love to
[57:29] Speaker 1: hear about what got you started down your path. What
[57:32] Speaker 1: was it that got you going into working with contact ease?
[57:37] Speaker 3: Oh, very interesting. Well, I have always been fascinated with euthology,
[57:43] Speaker 3: you know, really my entire life, which goes back to
[57:46] Speaker 3: when dinosaurs roamed the earth, so before the last ice age,
[57:50] Speaker 3: I was actually interested in ufology. So, but I did
[57:56] Speaker 3: have a very profound experience of my own when I
[58:02] Speaker 3: was about seventeen years old and I was away. I
[58:06] Speaker 3: was working in Summerstock Theater in not very far from
[58:10] Speaker 3: where you are now, the Black Hills of South Dakota,
[58:13] Speaker 3: the Black Hills Playhouse Rushmore State Park where the Presidential
[58:18] Speaker 3: heads are. That's where I was and I had and
[58:22] Speaker 3: of course the company members came from all over the
[58:25] Speaker 3: United States. And one of my roommates, I can't really
[58:30] Speaker 3: give her name because she's still that might be compromising,
[58:35] Speaker 3: But anyway, I had a wonderful roommate who was a
[58:38] Speaker 3: very busy entertainer singer in particularly the Vegas casinos. She
[58:44] Speaker 3: had a whole professional life doing that. But she shared
[58:49] Speaker 3: with me that she also worked for the United States
[58:54] Speaker 3: government as a kind of a translator or communicate or
[59:00] Speaker 3: if you will, with et beings, and that they would,
[59:05] Speaker 3: you know, she'd show up at the Las Vegas Airport
[59:08] Speaker 3: and she'd get into one of those unmarked planes and
[59:11] Speaker 3: they'd head her out to you know, Dulcie Base or where,
[59:14] Speaker 3: you know, wherever wherever the action was. And basically she
[59:19] Speaker 3: and various other sensitives would sit in rooms and communicate
[59:24] Speaker 3: with this a particular shall I say it breeds sound
[59:31] Speaker 3: so awful, but a particular type of gray that was
[59:34] Speaker 3: at the time really interacting heavenly, heavily with the government
[59:39] Speaker 3: of the United States. So when she came to the
[59:43] Speaker 3: to work at this summerstock theater, she said, the reason
[59:47] Speaker 3: she was doing it is she wanted to get away.
[59:49] Speaker 3: She wanted to quit and just no longer work for
[59:53] Speaker 3: the government. She was exhausted, she couldn't handle it. And
[59:58] Speaker 3: that summer, every time that I, you know, went into
[1:00:02] Speaker 3: the little town of Custer with her or any place,
[1:00:06] Speaker 3: we were followed or monitored by visible craft. So I'm
[1:00:12] Speaker 3: talking about sightings, you know, a couple times a week
[1:00:16] Speaker 3: of you know, very traditional types of cylindrical you know,
[1:00:23] Speaker 3: craft that were lit with different colors. So this went on,
[1:00:27] Speaker 3: and one one afternoon, I happened to be outside of
[1:00:34] Speaker 3: our little dorm and I was doing something else, but
[1:00:36] Speaker 3: I saw a really odd sort of late model Buick,
[1:00:44] Speaker 3: old fashioned town car. Even then it was anachronistic. It
[1:00:49] Speaker 3: looked like this was this would have been this is
[1:00:53] Speaker 3: nineteen seventy three, so the vehicle looked like nineteen fifty
[1:00:57] Speaker 3: eight or something. And it it drove into the theater
[1:01:02] Speaker 3: complex and pulled up right in front of our dorm.
[1:01:05] Speaker 3: And I knew that my friend was in, but I
[1:01:07] Speaker 3: was not. So I saw two beings get out of
[1:01:13] Speaker 3: this classic men in black car, and I have to
[1:01:18] Speaker 3: tell you, I have to tell you, Chris, that they
[1:01:22] Speaker 3: they really were very strange looking. It's subtle, but the
[1:01:26] Speaker 3: skin itself looked almost like it was plastic, you know.
[1:01:30] Speaker 3: They had a very kind of artificial look to them.
[1:01:33] Speaker 3: And they were wearing the hats, the classic Fordoras like
[1:01:36] Speaker 3: it was ridiculous, almost ridiculous. But the other thing that
[1:01:39] Speaker 3: I remember distinctly is on their feet they were wearing
[1:01:43] Speaker 3: what looked like weighted, like orthopedic shoes. For some reason,
[1:01:49] Speaker 3: these big heavy like it looked like they were weighted.
[1:01:53] Speaker 3: And their little pants the cuffs were up quite high,
[1:01:58] Speaker 3: like high waters. So the whole thing was very was
[1:02:01] Speaker 3: very strange. They couldn't have fit in really anywhere, you know,
[1:02:05] Speaker 3: so accept a cinema noir movie in nineteen fifty six.
[1:02:09] Speaker 3: So I saw them go into my friend's quarters. She
[1:02:13] Speaker 3: had her own entrance, and about a half an hour
[1:02:16] Speaker 3: went by, and I was just about to go in
[1:02:19] Speaker 3: and see if she was okay, like interrupt like whatever
[1:02:22] Speaker 3: was going on, when these you know, these beings came
[1:02:25] Speaker 3: out and they left, and you know, I went right
[1:02:28] Speaker 3: over and I said, what in God's name what was that?
[1:02:31] Speaker 3: And she said, well, these are government government representatives and
[1:02:35] Speaker 3: they're trying to convince me to continue to work in
[1:02:40] Speaker 3: the communification program. And I basically told them to f off.
[1:02:46] Speaker 3: Woh so uh. And then then about two weeks after that,
[1:02:54] Speaker 3: I was sleeping very soundly, and these were very rustic
[1:02:59] Speaker 3: a comes. It was an old The whole theater complex
[1:03:03] Speaker 3: was an old And you have these in the States
[1:03:07] Speaker 3: CCC work camps. They were kind of like a federal
[1:03:11] Speaker 3: work program that FDR started during World War two to
[1:03:14] Speaker 3: give men work to pull everybody out of the depression.
[1:03:17] Speaker 3: They were like logging camps kind of because that was
[1:03:20] Speaker 3: the kind of work that was being done. So these
[1:03:22] Speaker 3: were rustic accommodations. And it was about three in the
[1:03:25] Speaker 3: morning and I woke up just for no reason, sat
[1:03:31] Speaker 3: up in bed, and pouring in through the outside was
[1:03:37] Speaker 3: a blue light, I mean just blue, and it felt
[1:03:43] Speaker 3: as if the atmosphere was even thick. The atmosphere felt odd,
[1:03:48] Speaker 3: and I remember that I did hear a very low
[1:03:53] Speaker 3: not an engine sound, but maybe a low like a
[1:03:55] Speaker 3: tens you know, tense cycle, you know, a very low
[1:03:59] Speaker 3: vibee if you will. I was aware of. And that's
[1:04:04] Speaker 3: all I remember until the next morning at dawn, I
[1:04:11] Speaker 3: woke up and I was in terrible pain. I felt
[1:04:16] Speaker 3: like I had to urinate, but I wasn't sure. So
[1:04:19] Speaker 3: I got up. And this was so rustic that we
[1:04:22] Speaker 3: had like a bathhouse where all the accommodations were up
[1:04:25] Speaker 3: a small hill, and I was walking towards the bathhouse
[1:04:28] Speaker 3: and I noticed that I had a stream of blood
[1:04:32] Speaker 3: coming down my leg. Now this was not I'm sure
[1:04:35] Speaker 3: I can be open with your audience and say this
[1:04:37] Speaker 3: was not a normal like menstrual situation. This was completely
[1:04:43] Speaker 3: odd and out of you know, not related to anything
[1:04:47] Speaker 3: that would be normal, and I was in terrible pain.
[1:04:49] Speaker 3: I urinated, I was in terrible pain. Eventually I did
[1:04:53] Speaker 3: go to a doctor maybe the next day, and he
[1:04:55] Speaker 3: said there was some kind of bacterial infection, and you know,
[1:04:58] Speaker 3: but that was my So that experience in itself completely
[1:05:07] Speaker 3: for me validated not only the present, the extra extraterrestrial
[1:05:12] Speaker 3: presence among us and on Earth and involved in our stuff,
[1:05:16] Speaker 3: but the very real thing that may have happened to me.
[1:05:22] Speaker 3: I don't know if some genetic material was harvested. I
[1:05:27] Speaker 3: have never with any of my colleagues gone back to
[1:05:33] Speaker 3: re experience that I may do that at some point,
[1:05:37] Speaker 3: but I have a pretty good idea of what happened,
[1:05:40] Speaker 3: you know. I think I have enough of an idea
[1:05:42] Speaker 3: to maybe not need to go back into it in
[1:05:44] Speaker 3: any great depth right now.
[1:05:46] Speaker 1: Since then, have you had any other experiences that may
[1:05:49] Speaker 1: have possibly been connected, or any other profound experiences.
[1:05:54] Speaker 3: Boy, I sure wish that I had. I'm of the
[1:06:00] Speaker 3: belief system that there are no isolated experiences. That people
[1:06:04] Speaker 3: who have experiences, whether they're dramatic or minimal, generally, when
[1:06:09] Speaker 3: I do regress them, you know, we find out that
[1:06:11] Speaker 3: they have been been lifelong experiences. Usually since the age
[1:06:15] Speaker 3: of three. But in my conscious lifetime, the only the
[1:06:21] Speaker 3: only other incident that I can that I can recall
[1:06:25] Speaker 3: was not necessarily an extraterrestrial one. But but perhaps you
[1:06:29] Speaker 3: can tell me what you think I was. I was
[1:06:32] Speaker 3: driving from Los Angeles up to Reado, Nevada, and to
[1:06:38] Speaker 3: do that you must pass really by Mount Shasta. I mean,
[1:06:43] Speaker 3: it's just right there off the Highway five. And my
[1:06:49] Speaker 3: partner that I was driving with, you know, I warned,
[1:06:54] Speaker 3: I said, look, we're going up hi, we're growing up
[1:06:56] Speaker 3: to you know, six thousand pet whatever it is. Makes
[1:06:59] Speaker 3: sure you have enough gas because when you your listeners
[1:07:03] Speaker 3: may not know this, but when you're driving in elevated areas,
[1:07:06] Speaker 3: you use gas at a much higher rate. Yeah, so
[1:07:10] Speaker 3: that's a really thing. So I said, get the gas. Well,
[1:07:12] Speaker 3: of course he didn't get the gas. So we're up there,
[1:07:16] Speaker 3: right at you know, right at Mount Shasta in the
[1:07:20] Speaker 3: middle of the night, and it's a full moon you
[1:07:22] Speaker 3: can like see everything, and we are completely out of gas.
[1:07:28] Speaker 3: So so he says, you know, okay, I'm going I'm
[1:07:32] Speaker 3: just gonna go out. I'm going to try to walk somewhere.
[1:07:35] Speaker 3: And this is the middle of the bloody night. So
[1:07:37] Speaker 3: he gets out and within thirty seconds a car picks
[1:07:41] Speaker 3: him up and he takes off and that's it. I mean,
[1:07:45] Speaker 3: I don't know if he's ever coming back. I'm sitting
[1:07:47] Speaker 3: there in the car in the moonlight Mount Shasta. Now.
[1:07:52] Speaker 3: The next thing that I have conscious memory of is
[1:07:57] Speaker 3: him coming back to the car with a gas can.
[1:08:02] Speaker 3: And I had my I think I had my shirt.
[1:08:05] Speaker 3: My shirt was on backwards or there was some kind
[1:08:07] Speaker 3: of weird thing about how I was dressed, And for me,
[1:08:11] Speaker 3: it felt like ten minutes. I said, how in God's
[1:08:13] Speaker 3: name did you get back here into And it had
[1:08:16] Speaker 3: been it had been hours, it had been a couple
[1:08:19] Speaker 3: of hours. And so I do have an actual missing
[1:08:25] Speaker 3: time thing which happened at Mount Shasta. Now, whether that's
[1:08:31] Speaker 3: related to, you know, the evolved beings that are rumored
[1:08:34] Speaker 3: to live in that area, I don't know whether it
[1:08:38] Speaker 3: was an ET thing, but the fact that my shirt
[1:08:41] Speaker 3: was on backwards is a little bit disturbing. You know.
[1:08:44] Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard of all kinds of strange phenomenon occurring
[1:08:50] Speaker 1: near around Mount Shasta, not just necessarily you know, UFO
[1:08:54] Speaker 1: or extra terrestrial, but you know, all all kinds of paranormal,
[1:08:57] Speaker 1: but I also think that lots of paranoria mole activity,
[1:09:00] Speaker 1: if not all, is somehow connected in some ways to ufology.
[1:09:05] Speaker 1: It's really encouraging that a lot of researchers are coming
[1:09:08] Speaker 1: together in these fields because there used to be well,
[1:09:11] Speaker 1: there still is a lot of infighting, but it seems
[1:09:13] Speaker 1: like there used to be a lot more infighting between
[1:09:16] Speaker 1: the fields of paranormal and ufology, and it looks like
[1:09:20] Speaker 1: these fields are somewhat starting to collaborate a little bit more,
[1:09:24] Speaker 1: which is encouraging because I think it's all connected in
[1:09:27] Speaker 1: some way.
[1:09:28] Speaker 3: I couldn't agree with you more, Chris, and you know,
[1:09:31] Speaker 3: as you know, or you made I know. I work
[1:09:33] Speaker 3: with Mouffon rather heavily. I am part of Kathleen Martin's
[1:09:38] Speaker 3: experience or research program, so they do refer many experiences
[1:09:44] Speaker 3: to me who might like to undergo some regressive hippotherapy.
[1:09:49] Speaker 3: But I completely believe that all of this experience is connected.
[1:09:57] Speaker 3: And even you know, I mean this sounds a little
[1:10:00] Speaker 3: are out. You can stop me if it's too far out,
[1:10:02] Speaker 3: But as you can imagine, as a hypnotherapist, I also
[1:10:05] Speaker 3: do past life regressions, inter life regressions, some of these
[1:10:10] Speaker 3: other metaphysical processes. And I can tell you that when
[1:10:14] Speaker 3: we get individuals into these realms of the afterlife, you know,
[1:10:18] Speaker 3: these rarefied realms that are wonderful where we're all together
[1:10:21] Speaker 3: and thought informs matter, and there are counsels that help
[1:10:25] Speaker 3: us to determine our future. People are seeing beings that
[1:10:30] Speaker 3: are not exclusively human. So I believe that in our
[1:10:36] Speaker 3: soul group, if you will, it's not just the Terrans,
[1:10:42] Speaker 3: the earthly humans, that we also are in a soul
[1:10:45] Speaker 3: group with many other I won't say exactly alike, but
[1:10:49] Speaker 3: similarly constructed beings, you know, the Lerens, the Pleiadians, these
[1:10:55] Speaker 3: these beings seem to be very involved and totally included
[1:11:00] Speaker 3: in our so called afterlife. And in keeping with that,
[1:11:05] Speaker 3: you know, sometimes in past life regressions, individuals will very
[1:11:10] Speaker 3: easily recall lifetime spent on other planets. Now, usually it's
[1:11:17] Speaker 3: nothing too far out. I mean, usually it's your basic
[1:11:20] Speaker 3: kind of homined form, your you know, two legs, two arms,
[1:11:25] Speaker 3: head torso. Anything beyond that may not be that helpful
[1:11:31] Speaker 3: to our human experience. You know, if we enter, like
[1:11:35] Speaker 3: into beings that are exclusively aquatic or you know, I'm
[1:11:38] Speaker 3: not sure how that impacts on our karmic path as
[1:11:45] Speaker 3: it were, but definitely we are in a soul group
[1:11:48] Speaker 3: with a lot of different beings that our cousins closely
[1:11:52] Speaker 3: related or not so closely related.
[1:11:57] Speaker 1: Spy, excuse me, my external Mike was off there, Sorry
[1:12:01] Speaker 1: about that. When it comes to your hypnotherapy, when did
[1:12:04] Speaker 1: you first starting making the connections that this could help
[1:12:07] Speaker 1: out people who've had, you know, these experiences that they
[1:12:10] Speaker 1: don't understand.
[1:12:12] Speaker 3: Well, that's such a wonderful question, Chris. Now, I've been
[1:12:16] Speaker 3: practicing hypnotherapy for quite some time. I'm going to say
[1:12:19] Speaker 3: about fifteen years, and before that, although I had a
[1:12:23] Speaker 3: parallel career in the entertainment business, I also, in the
[1:12:28] Speaker 3: United States, am a psychiatric technician too, and I have
[1:12:31] Speaker 3: worked with very mentally ill people. I've worked in a
[1:12:34] Speaker 3: lot of freehabs and such, so I've always mental health
[1:12:38] Speaker 3: has always been a big part of my rest, you know,
[1:12:44] Speaker 3: my reason for doing things. And I think that what
[1:12:51] Speaker 3: happened initially is in the practice I first joined after
[1:12:57] Speaker 3: graduating from the hypnotherapy school that I attended. No one
[1:13:04] Speaker 3: wanted to deal with people who felt they were experiencers,
[1:13:09] Speaker 3: and this was a pretty straight ahead clinic, but maybe
[1:13:12] Speaker 3: about once a month we'd get someone who believed that
[1:13:16] Speaker 3: they had this experience. So the whole thing was just
[1:13:19] Speaker 3: to send those people to me, and somehow that turned
[1:13:25] Speaker 3: in to a really complete focus for my work, because
[1:13:34] Speaker 3: of course I do work for clinics, but I work
[1:13:36] Speaker 3: on my own and just through word of vout, people
[1:13:39] Speaker 3: began seeing me. And I'm kind of of the belief
[1:13:43] Speaker 3: system that the people that need to find me find me.
[1:13:49] Speaker 3: And in the beginning it probably wasn't that easy to
[1:13:52] Speaker 3: find me, but people did and that began to expand exponentially,
[1:13:58] Speaker 3: and certainly with the advent of being able to talk
[1:14:02] Speaker 3: on some wonderful forums and shows like yours, the word
[1:14:06] Speaker 3: has gotten out there that I can, you know, help
[1:14:09] Speaker 3: people with this issue. And then of course working through
[1:14:12] Speaker 3: moufon has been a tremendous learning experience because those those
[1:14:17] Speaker 3: individuals that come through mofon are properly vetted. You know
[1:14:20] Speaker 3: that anyone that comes to me is not going to
[1:14:22] Speaker 3: be suffering with a mental health issue that they've already
[1:14:26] Speaker 3: you know, completed a certain amount of investigation, and my
[1:14:30] Speaker 3: thing is just an addendum to that.
[1:14:32] Speaker 1: I was actually just going to ask you about that.
[1:14:35] Speaker 1: I was going to ask you how you can tell
[1:14:37] Speaker 1: if someone comes to you and they say, you know,
[1:14:39] Speaker 1: if they've had these contact experiences, they're interested in getting
[1:14:42] Speaker 1: hypnotherapy or aggression or something like that, How can you
[1:14:46] Speaker 1: tell before you even do anything, if these are genuine
[1:14:49] Speaker 1: experiences or if they may be suffering for some kind
[1:14:51] Speaker 1: of mental illness.
[1:14:53] Speaker 3: Well, that's that also is a wonderful question, Chris. Now,
[1:14:57] Speaker 3: before anybody comes to see me in person or even
[1:15:01] Speaker 3: on zoom, you know, in the COVID times, I have
[1:15:04] Speaker 3: a very long intake with that person. I talk to
[1:15:08] Speaker 3: them on the phone for a good long time. I
[1:15:12] Speaker 3: have them tell me about their experiences and about their history,
[1:15:16] Speaker 3: and nine times out of ten after that I have
[1:15:21] Speaker 3: a very good idea about what is going on. And
[1:15:25] Speaker 3: certainly not all people who believe they've had ET encounters
[1:15:31] Speaker 3: have had ET encounters. They could have had a dissociative
[1:15:37] Speaker 3: psychotic break. So my whole thing is I have to
[1:15:45] Speaker 3: base my judgment on that intake that I do and
[1:15:49] Speaker 3: the questions that I ask, and how they feel and
[1:15:52] Speaker 3: how I feel. Now, if I feel that somebody is
[1:15:56] Speaker 3: really presenting with a real dissociative disorder or mental health issues.
[1:16:01] Speaker 3: I don't just leave them out there to dangle. I
[1:16:04] Speaker 3: have colleagues who are psychotherapists, psychologists and psychiatrists who I
[1:16:09] Speaker 3: can recommend to these individuals, who are open to the
[1:16:13] Speaker 3: idea and therefore will not ridicule these people and will
[1:16:18] Speaker 3: accept them and treat them accordingly. And sometimes people will
[1:16:24] Speaker 3: reveal to me a long, sad mental health history. You
[1:16:29] Speaker 3: know of hospitalizations and antipsychotic meds, and you know that
[1:16:36] Speaker 3: that's not very common. But I would say about one
[1:16:41] Speaker 3: person in ten who contacts me is really suffering from
[1:16:46] Speaker 3: a dissociative mental health disorder.
[1:16:50] Speaker 1: Now, have you had cases where maybe it's even a
[1:16:53] Speaker 1: little bit of both. Maybe they do have some mental disorders,
[1:16:57] Speaker 1: but they are also having the experiences. It may be hard,
[1:17:01] Speaker 1: you know, it seems like it'd be extremely hard to
[1:17:03] Speaker 1: tell at times.
[1:17:05] Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're right. I think that does happen.
[1:17:11] Speaker 3: But I also think that most of the time are
[1:17:16] Speaker 3: e t you know, friends or geno relatives, whatever you
[1:17:21] Speaker 3: want to call them. I think that one of the
[1:17:23] Speaker 3: main reasons, if not the main reason, that they are
[1:17:27] Speaker 3: interested in specific people is for telepathic ability. Now, wouldn't
[1:17:33] Speaker 3: make sense if you were in involved species who use
[1:17:37] Speaker 3: language only occasionally, that in order to communicate with a species,
[1:17:42] Speaker 3: you would find the members of that species that had
[1:17:46] Speaker 3: the most developed ability or the most innate genetically transferredability
[1:17:53] Speaker 3: to communicate telepathically. This is Chris, This is kind of
[1:17:58] Speaker 3: my thinking now because as I have really spent a
[1:18:02] Speaker 3: lot of time ruminating on this, like what is the thing,
[1:18:08] Speaker 3: what is attractive? Why are these people having experiences? Because
[1:18:13] Speaker 3: it really cuts across all kinds of lines, I mean
[1:18:19] Speaker 3: of societal lines, socioeconomic lines, racial lines, religious lines, people
[1:18:28] Speaker 3: of all sorts all over the world from and a
[1:18:32] Speaker 3: very different levels of intelligence. I'm not talking about just
[1:18:37] Speaker 3: high IQ people, MENSA people here. It's a wide swath.
[1:18:43] Speaker 3: But I think that the commonality is that many of
[1:18:47] Speaker 3: the benevolent ets have really one message, and that's fix
[1:18:52] Speaker 3: your planet, clean up your mess, get your violence under control,
[1:18:59] Speaker 3: be loving and benevolent, and you know, be ready to
[1:19:03] Speaker 3: join the Association of civilized planets. I mean, I think
[1:19:09] Speaker 3: right now we're just a big frustration if there are
[1:19:13] Speaker 3: civilized beings that are if there is, and I kind
[1:19:17] Speaker 3: of think there is a sort of a gene Roddenberry,
[1:19:20] Speaker 3: United Federation of Planets. I think that these evolved beings
[1:19:25] Speaker 3: are probably extremely frustrated with us. I mean, no impulse control.
[1:19:31] Speaker 3: And look at the diversity of people that we have
[1:19:36] Speaker 3: on this planet. I mean, on the low end, we've
[1:19:39] Speaker 3: got like Charles Manson and Donald Trump, and then we've
[1:19:43] Speaker 3: got you know, the Dalai Lama, and you know, the
[1:19:48] Speaker 3: various profits of the ages. I mean, we have a
[1:19:50] Speaker 3: big swath of diversity of the types of beings. And
[1:19:56] Speaker 3: I've heard our life on Earth. I've heard our lions
[1:20:00] Speaker 3: on Earth being described more than once by people and hypnosis,
[1:20:05] Speaker 3: you know, speaking to their the beings they interact with.
[1:20:08] Speaker 3: I've heard this described as the Grand Experiment, and it's
[1:20:14] Speaker 3: a we are There's a lot of interest on us
[1:20:19] Speaker 3: right now. We are a hybrid race. I believe that
[1:20:24] Speaker 3: we are carrying genetic material from uh on Anaki, possibly Reptilian.
[1:20:30] Speaker 3: You know, we we are we are, we are the hybrids.
[1:20:34] Speaker 3: We are the ets in a sense, and how we
[1:20:39] Speaker 3: evolve and how we learn to care for each other
[1:20:43] Speaker 3: is everything I think we are. We were going to be.
[1:20:48] Speaker 3: We're savages until we learn how to care for each other.
[1:20:53] Speaker 2: Period.
[1:20:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the messages that seems consistent with contactees
[1:21:00] Speaker 1: that have had positive experiences is what you just said.
[1:21:04] Speaker 1: You know that we are, you know, a very special
[1:21:08] Speaker 1: grand experiment and we need to take care of the
[1:21:11] Speaker 1: planet ourselves and basically warning us about, you know, our
[1:21:17] Speaker 1: own self destruction things of that nature. And I want
[1:21:21] Speaker 1: to get more into some of people's experiences and try
[1:21:25] Speaker 1: to understand what occurs. But first I want to address
[1:21:29] Speaker 1: what happens with people who are taken in their sleep
[1:21:35] Speaker 1: or their consciousness is taken. It's not a physical experience.
[1:21:39] Speaker 1: They will still be in their bed. It doesn't look
[1:21:41] Speaker 1: like anything is occurring. I've had a contact ee who
[1:21:44] Speaker 1: records herself during these experiences and she's just laying there
[1:21:48] Speaker 1: and nothing's happening. But she says that she's being taken
[1:21:51] Speaker 1: on a ship and all this is occurring. They're doing
[1:21:54] Speaker 1: experiments and all this is happening. I'd like to get
[1:21:57] Speaker 1: your take on what is occurring here.
[1:22:00] Speaker 3: Well. I think we have to sort of open our
[1:22:03] Speaker 3: minds a bit to the nature of reality. I think
[1:22:06] Speaker 3: that we live interdimensional, multi dimensional existences, and what seems
[1:22:14] Speaker 3: to happen in all the cases, and the research that
[1:22:18] Speaker 3: I've done is if after a certain point of an abductee,
[1:22:23] Speaker 3: usually around midlife, really has primarily, as you just expressed,
[1:22:31] Speaker 3: experiences where they sort of bilocate or they leave their
[1:22:36] Speaker 3: physical body and they're operating in a kind of a
[1:22:39] Speaker 3: psychophysical body. This seems to be the preferred way of
[1:22:47] Speaker 3: convening or communicating for many many species that we simply
[1:22:55] Speaker 3: don't go in our dense physical bodies, but we project
[1:22:59] Speaker 3: our satiric body to a specific location. And many of
[1:23:05] Speaker 3: the people that I work with, whether or not they've
[1:23:07] Speaker 3: been involved in the twenty and back secret space program,
[1:23:11] Speaker 3: and I do have a number of wonderful people with
[1:23:15] Speaker 3: that experience. But whether or not that has happened, the
[1:23:18] Speaker 3: mature experiencers seem to be involved in collaborative work with
[1:23:25] Speaker 3: a variety of extraterrestrial beings. In other words, when they
[1:23:29] Speaker 3: leave their body, they generally go to some type of
[1:23:34] Speaker 3: craft or sometimes a base. There are underground bases, you know, everywhere,
[1:23:39] Speaker 3: so a craft or a base, and they are engaging
[1:23:44] Speaker 3: in some way with both other you know, humans who
[1:23:49] Speaker 3: are also you know, astro projecting, but also a variety
[1:23:52] Speaker 3: of ets, and they seem to be doing some kind
[1:23:56] Speaker 3: of good work together somehow now also some of the
[1:24:03] Speaker 3: people that well, I should say pretty much exclusively the
[1:24:07] Speaker 3: people that I have regressed who are lifelong experiencers. When
[1:24:11] Speaker 3: they're taken as children, it's a much more physical experience.
[1:24:16] Speaker 3: In other words, they're you know, they're taken out of
[1:24:18] Speaker 3: their beds, they're pulled through the wall, the eties get
[1:24:21] Speaker 3: them to walk outside, they get they go through the roof.
[1:24:25] Speaker 3: But it's very, very physical, and somehow the babies or
[1:24:31] Speaker 3: the children are returned before anybody knows anything is happening. Now,
[1:24:35] Speaker 3: there's a great deal of messing about with with what
[1:24:38] Speaker 3: we consider linear time. You know, we there is no
[1:24:42] Speaker 3: such thing as linear time. Linear time is an agreement
[1:24:46] Speaker 3: that we have made on this terrain, you know, orb,
[1:24:52] Speaker 3: so that we can get things accomplished, so that we
[1:24:54] Speaker 3: can mark time. But it actually doesn't really exist. And
[1:25:00] Speaker 3: I believe there's a lot of fiddling about with time
[1:25:04] Speaker 3: that goes on here. But certainly, as you said in Midlife,
[1:25:12] Speaker 3: the vast majority of ET encounters are happening in the
[1:25:18] Speaker 3: etheric body of the experiencer, and they are willing participants
[1:25:24] Speaker 3: who are working in some kind of collaboration with the ETS,
[1:25:28] Speaker 3: either to help our environment or rescue children know who
[1:25:31] Speaker 3: you know, who knows what it is. And the kinds
[1:25:36] Speaker 3: of things that happen to little children when they're taken
[1:25:38] Speaker 3: are like kind of like games. They I've heard stories
[1:25:43] Speaker 3: where they're you know, they're taken into groups with a
[1:25:46] Speaker 3: lot of other little children, some of whom are humanoids,
[1:25:48] Speaker 3: some who aren't, and they're working in various things were
[1:25:52] Speaker 3: with their minds. They're constructing shapes, and it all sounds
[1:25:56] Speaker 3: like toys and like play, but it's certainly some type
[1:26:00] Speaker 3: of a learning experience, training to develop these side these
[1:26:07] Speaker 3: psionic these psionic characteristics PSI.
[1:26:10] Speaker 1: Yes. I've also interviewed a few people that claim to
[1:26:12] Speaker 1: have been in the Secret Space Program in twenty in back,
[1:26:15] Speaker 1: and they have also claimed to have experienced similar things
[1:26:19] Speaker 1: these you know, training environments, as young children being taken
[1:26:22] Speaker 1: and going to these classroom like environments things of that nature.
[1:26:26] Speaker 1: So that's very interesting.
[1:26:28] Speaker 3: Indeed, And I do have a number of individuals that
[1:26:35] Speaker 3: I'm working with who are or have memories of being
[1:26:40] Speaker 3: involved in the twenty and back the Secret Space program,
[1:26:43] Speaker 3: And I think the cutting edge a lot of what
[1:26:46] Speaker 3: we're going to see over these next five years, Chris,
[1:26:50] Speaker 3: are a lot of these individuals coming forward, both men
[1:26:52] Speaker 3: and women. And one of the reasons for this is
[1:26:55] Speaker 3: and this is something that Jason Rice has said and
[1:27:00] Speaker 3: I've long been in agreement with that any kind of
[1:27:03] Speaker 3: memory blocks that were developed by the terrestrial military, shall
[1:27:10] Speaker 3: we say, they only developed them to last for twenty years.
[1:27:15] Speaker 3: So these dear people who have served not only our
[1:27:20] Speaker 3: country but our world, these dear people who are suffering
[1:27:24] Speaker 3: from some very unique PTSD are now beginning to have
[1:27:29] Speaker 3: memories come back. Because there is no memory block that
[1:27:33] Speaker 3: lasts forever. It doesn't exist, whether it's et installed or
[1:27:38] Speaker 3: whether it's been installed by reverse technology through some machinations
[1:27:43] Speaker 3: of the Secret Space program. There is no permanent memory block.
[1:27:49] Speaker 3: And many of these dear people who have served so
[1:27:52] Speaker 3: valiantly in twenty and back, they are beginning to recover
[1:28:00] Speaker 3: their memories. Like on the older side, we have Randy Kramer.
[1:28:06] Speaker 3: I'm not sure how you feel about Corey Good, but
[1:28:08] Speaker 3: you know the younger guy, Jason Rice is about ten
[1:28:12] Speaker 3: fifteen years younger than Randy Kramer. So we are starting
[1:28:15] Speaker 3: to have people come forward, and I have had although
[1:28:18] Speaker 3: they haven't come out publicly. I have worked with a
[1:28:21] Speaker 3: number of female experiencers who are also in the twenty
[1:28:25] Speaker 3: and back. So this is not like a male domain.
[1:28:30] Speaker 3: It's just the first guys, the first people to discuss
[1:28:33] Speaker 3: this have been men.
[1:28:38] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really fascinating, especially with what's happening right now
[1:28:41] Speaker 1: with all of the disclosure in the mainstream and the
[1:28:46] Speaker 1: space force. And I do want to get your take
[1:28:48] Speaker 1: on that, but I want to go over some of
[1:28:50] Speaker 1: these experiences first. Now, Okay, when it comes to people's
[1:28:56] Speaker 1: experiences themselves, especially, I'm hearing more and more contact these
[1:29:03] Speaker 1: and experience ers say that in the beginning they were
[1:29:06] Speaker 1: terrified and they you know, they thought that they were
[1:29:08] Speaker 1: being killed or these beings were going to hurt them.
[1:29:11] Speaker 1: But the more they find out about these experiences, the
[1:29:15] Speaker 1: more they look back or have a regression done or
[1:29:18] Speaker 1: something like this, it turns into a more positive experience
[1:29:21] Speaker 1: and they become less afraid of these beings and even
[1:29:25] Speaker 1: kind of welcome it eventually. Is this something that you
[1:29:28] Speaker 1: find is common with contact these?
[1:29:31] Speaker 3: I think that's incredibly accurate, Chris, of the of the
[1:29:35] Speaker 3: of the majority of the experiences that people have, the
[1:29:38] Speaker 3: majority of experiences that people have are positive, most of them.
[1:29:45] Speaker 3: And I have to completely agree with what you said,
[1:29:50] Speaker 3: and sometimes looking back on things and being able to
[1:29:54] Speaker 3: look at them as they happened through regression instead of
[1:29:58] Speaker 3: just the fragments of stuff that weird, you know, you're
[1:30:01] Speaker 3: able to get a complete overview and then and then
[1:30:06] Speaker 3: realize that whatever happened was more or less a benign experience,
[1:30:10] Speaker 3: like like having a COVID test, you know, I mean,
[1:30:14] Speaker 3: and these are these are the realizations that people generally
[1:30:19] Speaker 3: come to. Now. Of course, we're dealing with a lot
[1:30:24] Speaker 3: of different species, Chris, A lot of different species. My
[1:30:31] Speaker 3: my personal opinion about the grays. Now, there are many
[1:30:34] Speaker 3: types of grays, but I think that the real the
[1:30:36] Speaker 3: little you know, drone like grays that are often assisting
[1:30:40] Speaker 3: in procedures and that you know, Travis Walton discussed in
[1:30:44] Speaker 3: his experience. I believe that they are not fully biological.
[1:30:48] Speaker 3: I believe that they are more drone like and they
[1:30:52] Speaker 3: often are doing the will of their you know, superiors,
[1:30:56] Speaker 3: who are much more like a lyrin or you know,
[1:30:59] Speaker 3: a humanoid type being. Most of the time humanoid type beings,
[1:31:05] Speaker 3: our own ancestors are really in charge. And I think
[1:31:09] Speaker 3: that the grays are biologically engineered beings at least the
[1:31:14] Speaker 3: small ones. Now, I know that grays were very involved
[1:31:20] Speaker 3: in the Roswell crash, a certain type of gray. In fact,
[1:31:25] Speaker 3: many individuals would date the beginning of the secret space
[1:31:30] Speaker 3: program with the Roswell crash. And I'm sure you've probably
[1:31:37] Speaker 3: at least looked at that amazing book by Philip Corso.
[1:31:41] Speaker 3: The day after Roswell, Well, you know, the whole our
[1:31:44] Speaker 3: modern era, you know, well Betty and Barney Hill happened
[1:31:48] Speaker 3: after that. But our modern era of what we are
[1:31:50] Speaker 3: dealing with or just finished dealing with, begins at Roswell.
[1:31:54] Speaker 3: And apparently after that crash, beings and at least two
[1:32:01] Speaker 3: living beings as well as a lot of technology was salvaged.
[1:32:06] Speaker 3: And there was apparently some type of deal made during
[1:32:11] Speaker 3: the time that Harry Truman was president. So this is
[1:32:15] Speaker 3: right after the war, you know, FDRs dead. Harry Truman's president,
[1:32:20] Speaker 3: and he was the president that made the deal with
[1:32:23] Speaker 3: these particular ets that were involved in the Roswell crash.
[1:32:27] Speaker 3: There were three crashes, by the way, you know, we
[1:32:29] Speaker 3: brought them down with some type of primitive electromagnetic weapon
[1:32:34] Speaker 3: that we were developing. We brought them down three beings
[1:32:38] Speaker 3: that were just looking around, but these beings made a
[1:32:42] Speaker 3: deal with maybe not just the United States government, but
[1:32:48] Speaker 3: it seems like it. They made a deal and said, okay,
[1:32:50] Speaker 3: well we're going to give you we'll give you some
[1:32:52] Speaker 3: advanced technology, but in exchange, we're having, you know, fertility problems.
[1:32:58] Speaker 3: We're not able to reproduce, and we would like to
[1:33:01] Speaker 3: harvest some DNA material, healthy DNA from a very small
[1:33:06] Speaker 3: amount of your Earth citizens. And apparently this was the agreement.
[1:33:12] Speaker 3: Now a very small amount. We don't know what that means,
[1:33:17] Speaker 3: but thousands upon thousands of both men for the harvesting
[1:33:22] Speaker 3: of sperm and both women for the harvesting of ova
[1:33:26] Speaker 3: or for the incubation of fertilized fetuses. Who knows. This
[1:33:31] Speaker 3: stuff went on like crazy with these particular ets who
[1:33:37] Speaker 3: had an agreement to do it. Now, this agreement ended
[1:33:42] Speaker 3: about I think about five years ago maybe, and so
[1:33:47] Speaker 3: the beings were true to their word. This doesn't happen anymore.
[1:33:51] Speaker 3: It's not happening this kind of sexually motivated well, sexually
[1:33:54] Speaker 3: that's the wrong word. Genetically motivated episodes are no longer
[1:34:00] Speaker 3: happening because the agreement has timed out, and so nowadays
[1:34:08] Speaker 3: it's very unusual for me to regress anyone who is
[1:34:13] Speaker 3: having an experience where either ova or sperm have been extracted,
[1:34:18] Speaker 3: that's very unusual. It has to be an older person
[1:34:22] Speaker 3: who is recalling the experience from their young adulthood.
[1:34:25] Speaker 1: Right now, Now, do you have any idea who are
[1:34:30] Speaker 1: who are these beings behind this? I know you talked
[1:34:32] Speaker 1: a little bit about how the grades are probably not
[1:34:36] Speaker 1: all biological entities. There may be some kind of android
[1:34:42] Speaker 1: android type engineered little robots that are being used by
[1:34:49] Speaker 1: more intelligent you've said, possibly even our ancestors. I found
[1:34:53] Speaker 1: that interesting because a few other researchers have talked about,
[1:34:57] Speaker 1: you know, aliens being us from the future, which is
[1:35:01] Speaker 1: very intriguing to me. Now, what do you think is
[1:35:04] Speaker 1: some of the agendas and who are the beings that
[1:35:07] Speaker 1: are on our side based on what you've learned from
[1:35:10] Speaker 1: different experiences.
[1:35:13] Speaker 3: Well, I think be the beings that are on our
[1:35:15] Speaker 3: side really are our cousins, the Pleiadeans, the Lyrins, the
[1:35:23] Speaker 3: beings that look so much like us, even that you know,
[1:35:26] Speaker 3: the Ononachi are considered in that group of lyrins, and
[1:35:31] Speaker 3: we are really the direct result. If we are to
[1:35:35] Speaker 3: accept the work of Zacharaizichen, which I do. We are
[1:35:38] Speaker 3: the direct result of some cloning experiences that occurred between
[1:35:43] Speaker 3: the sophisticated genetic scientists of the Anonachi and the indigenous
[1:35:50] Speaker 3: hominids that we're here at the time, sort of the
[1:35:55] Speaker 3: Neanderthal beings, if you will. So we are, in fact,
[1:36:00] Speaker 3: we have been upgraded. The Adama was the first being
[1:36:04] Speaker 3: that was created, and according to the work of Sitchen,
[1:36:08] Speaker 3: all of this happened, you know, when you know, sixty
[1:36:11] Speaker 3: thousand years ago, and it was all about the heart
[1:36:13] Speaker 3: of the mining of gold in South Africa. So Michael
[1:36:17] Speaker 3: Tellinger is a wonderful source to go to for the
[1:36:21] Speaker 3: history of the Onunaki and the South American gold mines.
[1:36:24] Speaker 3: He's one of the leading experts in that now. But
[1:36:28] Speaker 3: I believe that these beings, our progenitors, have never not
[1:36:37] Speaker 3: cared about what's going on with us. I think they
[1:36:41] Speaker 3: had been watching from Afar, as we will not necessarily
[1:36:45] Speaker 3: always from Afar, but they've been watching as we stumble
[1:36:48] Speaker 3: through our nuclear bullshit and our racial bullshit, and you know,
[1:36:54] Speaker 3: our war, all of our shit that we struggle through.
[1:36:57] Speaker 3: And I think that again and maybe a little bit
[1:37:01] Speaker 3: like the gene Rodberry Federation of Planets. I think there's
[1:37:05] Speaker 3: a hands off policy until we get to a certain point,
[1:37:09] Speaker 3: like you would tell you, Like again in Star Trek,
[1:37:13] Speaker 3: you talk, they divide. They have a prewarp civilizations can't
[1:37:18] Speaker 3: be messed with because they haven't discovered how to travel yet.
[1:37:23] Speaker 3: I think this is where we are. We are, in fact,
[1:37:26] Speaker 3: a kind of a prewarp civilization. We are the end
[1:37:31] Speaker 3: result of many genetic contributions from many different species. And
[1:37:37] Speaker 3: who's pulling the strings, who's in charge? That's like the
[1:37:41] Speaker 3: question of questions. I do, as I mentioned before, I
[1:37:45] Speaker 3: do think that there is a kind of a united
[1:37:48] Speaker 3: federation of planets of the evolved species who but you
[1:37:53] Speaker 3: know they But as far as what goes on our
[1:37:56] Speaker 3: planet goes on in our planet, it's hard not to
[1:38:01] Speaker 3: believe that there isn't some negative influence deeply embedded here.
[1:38:09] Speaker 1: Now, depending on who you're talking to, some would say
[1:38:12] Speaker 1: the Annaki is pure evil, and you know, the even
[1:38:15] Speaker 1: though they created us, they were just using us for slaves,
[1:38:19] Speaker 1: and that we you know, that's a species that can't
[1:38:22] Speaker 1: be trusted. So, you know, there's so many different views
[1:38:25] Speaker 1: on who's a bad et, who's a good et. And
[1:38:28] Speaker 1: I'm sure there's a lot of misinformation intentionally put out there,
[1:38:32] Speaker 1: so we really don't know. But you know, it is
[1:38:35] Speaker 1: very interesting to think that the more I look at
[1:38:39] Speaker 1: at our existence and extraterrestrial phenomenon and abductions and contact
[1:38:45] Speaker 1: experiences and all these things we can't explain, I think
[1:38:49] Speaker 1: sometimes maybe we are just an experiment for these beings
[1:38:53] Speaker 1: and they just you know, they pop in every while
[1:38:55] Speaker 1: to see how the experiment's going.
[1:38:57] Speaker 3: I don't know, well, it kind of feels like that now.
[1:39:00] Speaker 3: I have a real trouble with seeing the Onanoki as
[1:39:05] Speaker 3: intrinsically evil. There's a book that everybody out there should read.
[1:39:10] Speaker 3: It's called The Lost Book of Anki, and it's another
[1:39:13] Speaker 3: work by Zachariasichen, but it gives a real personal view
[1:39:17] Speaker 3: of what Anki, one of the two brothers who was
[1:39:19] Speaker 3: involved here, went through trying to So you basically had
[1:39:24] Speaker 3: two brothers, one who was very humanitarian and wanted the
[1:39:28] Speaker 3: human beings that had been created as a slave race
[1:39:32] Speaker 3: to evolve and have access to their higher nature. And
[1:39:35] Speaker 3: then you had you know, his brother, an asshole, you know,
[1:39:40] Speaker 3: and Leo, who wanted who would rather have us blown
[1:39:44] Speaker 3: off the face of the earth. So there within every civilization,
[1:39:49] Speaker 3: you know, you've got your you've got your different points
[1:39:52] Speaker 3: of view and what have you. I think it's important
[1:39:55] Speaker 3: to remember that the onanoch you were people. They were
[1:39:58] Speaker 3: not gods. They were imperfect beings struggling to save their
[1:40:04] Speaker 3: home planet, struggling for power, and they found themselves in
[1:40:09] Speaker 3: a situation which through the through the amazing, uh almost
[1:40:15] Speaker 3: magical properties of physics on our planet, they had abnormally
[1:40:20] Speaker 3: long lives and so they were godlike and they passed
[1:40:25] Speaker 3: this longevity to the early you know Biblical fathers, you know, Methuselah,
[1:40:31] Speaker 3: these were all pretty even Noah was was a son
[1:40:34] Speaker 3: of Inki. So these there, the Bible itself, uh, is
[1:40:40] Speaker 3: sort of like, uh, let's see, we say in the States,
[1:40:43] Speaker 3: like a cliffs Notes version of what actually happened. You know,
[1:40:48] Speaker 3: so many books have been thrown out and edited by
[1:40:51] Speaker 3: so many people with agendas. But the real story is there,
[1:40:54] Speaker 3: and it's a story of It's a story of you know,
[1:40:58] Speaker 3: greed and jealousy. You know, even our early Biblical stories,
[1:41:02] Speaker 3: you know that canaan Abel. You know, these are aspects
[1:41:06] Speaker 3: of ourselves that we're also aspects of the Atanaki. We
[1:41:10] Speaker 3: are them, They are us as above so below. I
[1:41:15] Speaker 3: don't think we need any I don't think, you know,
[1:41:18] Speaker 3: I don't like any thoughts about like demons and all
[1:41:22] Speaker 3: this kind of garbage. I don't think we need any
[1:41:26] Speaker 3: help to be terrible to ourselves.
[1:41:29] Speaker 1: I think you're right about that. I think humans have
[1:41:32] Speaker 1: got a lot of evil covered on their own. And
[1:41:35] Speaker 1: it makes me wonder when it comes to the evil
[1:41:38] Speaker 1: that's occurring on our planet, all the negativity, all the
[1:41:41] Speaker 1: things that are happening, and the ones at the top,
[1:41:43] Speaker 1: you know, are are they really in cahoots with like
[1:41:46] Speaker 1: off planet entities? Are they just evil people? You know,
[1:41:49] Speaker 1: that's always the big question for me.
[1:41:52] Speaker 3: Bad humans. It doesn't take any more than bad humans.
[1:41:56] Speaker 3: Greed is the thing, you know, Greed. Greed is the
[1:42:00] Speaker 3: thin greed power. And there are those that would argue
[1:42:04] Speaker 3: that these are qualities that were bred into us by
[1:42:07] Speaker 3: the Onornaki, and I can't really counter that. I think
[1:42:12] Speaker 3: it's I think it's very probable, but we are meant
[1:42:14] Speaker 3: to rise above these things. But I don't, you know,
[1:42:17] Speaker 3: and people talk about the you know, the queen being
[1:42:20] Speaker 3: Reptilian and the buildebergs and all this is all. This
[1:42:24] Speaker 3: is all a big smoke stream for the basic fact
[1:42:27] Speaker 3: that we as human beings cannot take responsibility for our
[1:42:30] Speaker 3: own planet, for feeding every hungry baby, and we we
[1:42:37] Speaker 3: cannot take responsibility. And uh, this is this is our challenge,
[1:42:43] Speaker 3: This is our challenge. We must come together for the
[1:42:45] Speaker 3: greater good.
[1:42:46] Speaker 1: Well, that being said, if you know, if it's true
[1:42:49] Speaker 1: that we did make a deal with extra terrestrials for
[1:42:52] Speaker 1: them the harvest genetic material, you know, do you think
[1:42:55] Speaker 1: that there's possibly factions of I don't want to say
[1:42:58] Speaker 1: our government or you know, shadow government, whatever you want
[1:43:01] Speaker 1: to call it, that are working with negative ets for
[1:43:05] Speaker 1: certain nefarious purposes.
[1:43:08] Speaker 3: I think the most negative et affiliation that we can
[1:43:12] Speaker 3: probably put our fingers on was the affiliation that Hitler
[1:43:16] Speaker 3: had with a specific group of grays. And now this
[1:43:20] Speaker 3: is of course highly controversial, but Hitler of course was
[1:43:24] Speaker 3: way out there. He was open, you know, he had
[1:43:27] Speaker 3: the real society. He was completely open to all of
[1:43:30] Speaker 3: this kind of stuff, and he directed a lot of
[1:43:34] Speaker 3: technology in this kind of vein and even oh gosh,
[1:43:43] Speaker 3: what is his name, one of one of the one
[1:43:47] Speaker 3: of the very very famous astrophysicist rocket scientists that came
[1:43:51] Speaker 3: over a project paper clip to the United States. He
[1:43:54] Speaker 3: was very tall, very very teutonic looking, and oh god,
[1:44:00] Speaker 3: my brain, my brain. Anyway, I'll think of it at
[1:44:05] Speaker 3: three in the morning. Oh, Chris, that's what it was. Anyway,
[1:44:09] Speaker 3: it is, he said, this famous scientist, and I'll probably
[1:44:12] Speaker 3: think of it. He was asked about, you know, der Glock,
[1:44:17] Speaker 3: you know, like some of these things that went on,
[1:44:19] Speaker 3: and you know, how are these things developed? And he said,
[1:44:23] Speaker 3: we had help from and gestured upstairs. So there was
[1:44:29] Speaker 3: a certain group of Grays that had the idea that
[1:44:33] Speaker 3: I guess regimenting human beings into you know, like pens,
[1:44:38] Speaker 3: which is what Hitler was doing, was a good idea,
[1:44:41] Speaker 3: and allegedly there was quite a bit of collaboration there.
[1:44:46] Speaker 3: And also, whether it's true or not, the legend is
[1:44:51] Speaker 3: that you know, Hitler's army are missing something like twenty
[1:44:56] Speaker 3: seven nuclear subs that just disappeared, and the some some
[1:45:03] Speaker 3: have speculated that they had a chance to get to
[1:45:07] Speaker 3: Antarctica or New Schwabi Land as they were calling it,
[1:45:11] Speaker 3: so anything as possible. But yes, those ets that we
[1:45:15] Speaker 3: were collaborating with Hitler were absolutely negative, and they were Grays,
[1:45:21] Speaker 3: and you know, it's just like anything. You know, I'm
[1:45:24] Speaker 3: a New Yorker, you know people, You've got good people,
[1:45:27] Speaker 3: bad people all over this city. You know, it's it's
[1:45:30] Speaker 3: it's a diverse group. We have to be careful with
[1:45:33] Speaker 3: who we associate with. And but I do think that
[1:45:37] Speaker 3: there is a benevolent organization that is kind of overseeing
[1:45:43] Speaker 3: what is going on with us. Now. Now, as far
[1:45:46] Speaker 3: as disclosure, I never saw so much garbage in my
[1:45:50] Speaker 3: life as that six page piece of bullshit from the government.
[1:45:56] Speaker 3: It was a joke. You know, we've been waiting for
[1:45:58] Speaker 3: the bull It's it's a joke. It's a joke. So
[1:46:02] Speaker 3: I think we just need to ignore that. And in fact,
[1:46:05] Speaker 3: many of the people that I regress have been told
[1:46:08] Speaker 3: by their you know, et people that they deal with
[1:46:11] Speaker 3: that that disclosure is never going to happen through the government,
[1:46:16] Speaker 3: you know the way that you know, maybe in a
[1:46:19] Speaker 3: film in a cinematic sense, we would like to see it.
[1:46:22] Speaker 3: They tried that, they buzzed the White House, they dealt
[1:46:26] Speaker 3: with some of the and some of the benevolent ets
[1:46:29] Speaker 3: tried to deal with them with Eisenhower, and we're met
[1:46:32] Speaker 3: with a complete shutting down. They said, let us you know,
[1:46:37] Speaker 3: let us help you with the pollution, with the with
[1:46:39] Speaker 3: the free energy. And he said, oh no, no, no,
[1:46:41] Speaker 3: no everything, our economy will collapse. No. And that was
[1:46:44] Speaker 3: a nineteen That was in nineteen, you know, sixty or
[1:46:48] Speaker 3: what have you. So they've tried, I think the benevolent
[1:46:52] Speaker 3: beings have tried. And so now what they're doing is
[1:46:56] Speaker 3: they are they are coming through channels. There's a lot
[1:47:00] Speaker 3: of that going on. A lot of people are channeling
[1:47:04] Speaker 3: amazing beings, like my friend Daryl Anka, who has been
[1:47:07] Speaker 3: channeling Bishar for god knows how many years. So there's
[1:47:11] Speaker 3: channeling going on, and there are many many human beings
[1:47:18] Speaker 3: that are working with the ets on collaborative projects while
[1:47:21] Speaker 3: they are you know, allegedly asleep. They're just turned off.
[1:47:25] Speaker 3: They're by locating. So this is this is the shape
[1:47:30] Speaker 3: of disclosure. It's not going to come through you know,
[1:47:34] Speaker 3: what's his name, Elizondo is stupid.
[1:47:37] Speaker 1: Well, but there's also kind of being painted as a threat,
[1:47:41] Speaker 1: you know, from the media and the government. But the
[1:47:45] Speaker 1: way I look at it is if they were a threat,
[1:47:48] Speaker 1: they could have eliminated us so many times over throughout history,
[1:47:54] Speaker 1: you know, and it seems like, I don't know, what.
[1:47:58] Speaker 1: They backpedal and then they put out a little of
[1:48:00] Speaker 1: information and they say, oh, it could be a threat,
[1:48:03] Speaker 1: or it could just swamp gas.
[1:48:05] Speaker 3: And birds in the air, you know, swamp gas, right.
[1:48:09] Speaker 1: So, I'm not sure why all of a sudden, you know,
[1:48:12] Speaker 1: in in twenty seventeen, of course, the New York Times
[1:48:15] Speaker 1: article blew the lid open on the whole UFO thing,
[1:48:18] Speaker 1: and then the mainstream started talking about it. All of
[1:48:21] Speaker 1: a sudden, it was okay to talk about it. Uh,
[1:48:23] Speaker 1: then we have this weak report just come out, and
[1:48:26] Speaker 1: they kind of backpedaled a little. So it's very strange,
[1:48:29] Speaker 1: to say the least, what's going on right now? And
[1:48:31] Speaker 1: I always question why the timing? Why right now are
[1:48:35] Speaker 1: they starting to talk about this. Are they trying to
[1:48:37] Speaker 1: get ahead of something? Do they know that there's going
[1:48:40] Speaker 1: to be something occurring that they can't control?
[1:48:43] Speaker 3: You know, they know nothing. They're they're operating in fear.
[1:48:47] Speaker 3: They're they're they're they're marketing in fear because fear controls people.
[1:48:54] Speaker 3: Fear controls people. If they keep a climate of fear going,
[1:48:58] Speaker 3: like we don't know what's happening, we we don't know,
[1:49:01] Speaker 3: people are destabilized. But in reality, there is absolutely nothing
[1:49:06] Speaker 3: to fear. And as you said so eloquently a few
[1:49:09] Speaker 3: moments ago, if they were hostile, if they wanted to
[1:49:13] Speaker 3: take our resources and blow us off this planet, it
[1:49:17] Speaker 3: would have, by god happened, you know, a long time ago.
[1:49:23] Speaker 3: This is not what's happening. There are benevolent beings who
[1:49:27] Speaker 3: are trying to lift us up, you know, to help
[1:49:29] Speaker 3: us increase our vibration and move to a new vibrational level.
[1:49:35] Speaker 3: Now maybe you know again, and I know we were
[1:49:38] Speaker 3: talking about this earlier. It's hard to imagine that all
[1:49:44] Speaker 3: of us on Earth, with the wide disparity of intellect
[1:49:48] Speaker 3: and experience, that we could all be sort of raised
[1:49:54] Speaker 3: up to a new vibration at the same time. I'm
[1:49:58] Speaker 3: not sure that can happen, but but I think that
[1:50:02] Speaker 3: is the goal. I think that is the goal. And
[1:50:04] Speaker 3: I also think there are a lot of hybrid beings
[1:50:08] Speaker 3: that are living among us. You know, they've been they've
[1:50:11] Speaker 3: been at the hybridization program so long that there are
[1:50:15] Speaker 3: beings that that are hybrids that we would that just
[1:50:19] Speaker 3: are so much like us, we would never think to
[1:50:22] Speaker 3: single them out for any reason.
[1:50:24] Speaker 2: You know.
[1:50:24] Speaker 1: I'm hearing that more and more from from from different individuals,
[1:50:28] Speaker 1: some pretty high level individuals that I that I met
[1:50:31] Speaker 1: lately telling me, you know that there's hybrids walking among us,
[1:50:35] Speaker 1: which is very interesting, to say the least. Now, I
[1:50:39] Speaker 1: want to go back for just a minute to people's
[1:50:42] Speaker 1: experiences being abducted or taken on a ship and then
[1:50:47] Speaker 1: they have foreign objects or implants that they notice and
[1:50:51] Speaker 1: the uh, now, what in your in your experiences, what
[1:50:56] Speaker 1: have been some of the purposes of these implants and
[1:51:00] Speaker 1: have they been in any danger to people?
[1:51:04] Speaker 3: Hmm, that's that's a very interesting question. Now I would
[1:51:08] Speaker 3: say that I don't think any implants have ever been
[1:51:12] Speaker 3: in danger to anyone. I really don't. What I think
[1:51:18] Speaker 3: is happening is and this is the information that I've
[1:51:21] Speaker 3: been getting from people that I regress, that the implants
[1:51:25] Speaker 3: are kind of like step up transformers in a sense
[1:51:29] Speaker 3: that wherever they are, they are designed to stimulate or
[1:51:33] Speaker 3: increase psychic ability or intuition or or things of that.
[1:51:39] Speaker 3: More esoteric nature about is that's what they're designed to do,
[1:51:44] Speaker 3: and when they're done doing their work, they generally dissolve
[1:51:48] Speaker 3: or they fall out, like if it's something in somebody's nose.
[1:51:51] Speaker 3: You hear about that all the time where just they
[1:51:53] Speaker 3: sneeze it and a little ball comes out. You know,
[1:51:55] Speaker 3: these are so these are benign. I boy, I wish
[1:52:01] Speaker 3: you know. Doctor Lear has passed away. He was the
[1:52:03] Speaker 3: foremost expert on implants, and he had removed so many,
[1:52:09] Speaker 3: and he found that some of the implants, as soon
[1:52:12] Speaker 3: as they were exposed to an atmosphere, they dissolved. They
[1:52:15] Speaker 3: just dissolve completely. Some of them kind of ran from
[1:52:20] Speaker 3: him in the body, like if he was trying to
[1:52:23] Speaker 3: take something out of somebody's hand and it would move
[1:52:26] Speaker 3: and run. So there's a big variety of them. But
[1:52:31] Speaker 3: I honestly have never heard of anything negative ever occurring
[1:52:38] Speaker 3: form any implants, and most experiencers report having them. Some
[1:52:44] Speaker 3: experiencers have told me that they have implants or hardware,
[1:52:48] Speaker 3: whatever you want to call it, in their etheric body,
[1:52:51] Speaker 3: but not in their physical body. So perhaps beings that
[1:52:55] Speaker 3: are of a higher dimensional resonance may use implants that
[1:53:02] Speaker 3: simply are are in light matter and not in our
[1:53:07] Speaker 3: solid physical matter. So I have not heard anything negative
[1:53:14] Speaker 3: as far as what they do or what they don't do.
[1:53:17] Speaker 3: And the answers that I continue to get from experienceers
[1:53:20] Speaker 3: are that they are to help and assist with our development,
[1:53:26] Speaker 3: and they're not meant to harm in any way.
[1:53:29] Speaker 1: Is it common when you're working with experiencers that they
[1:53:35] Speaker 1: have the experience of I guess, going being able to
[1:53:39] Speaker 1: go through matter, or you know, being taken and they're
[1:53:42] Speaker 1: going through their ceiling somehow. It's like they can change
[1:53:48] Speaker 1: the structure of their body somehow. Is this something common
[1:53:51] Speaker 1: you've noticed?
[1:53:53] Speaker 3: It's super common, Chris, And especially when people are taken
[1:53:58] Speaker 3: early in life as children or whatever is mentioned. What
[1:54:01] Speaker 3: seems to be happening is many of the ets are
[1:54:04] Speaker 3: able to simply adjust the vibration of our cells so
[1:54:12] Speaker 3: that they can match that vibration with say the vibration
[1:54:18] Speaker 3: of what's going on with the wall or a ceiling.
[1:54:20] Speaker 3: Because everything is in motion, all molecules are in motion.
[1:54:24] Speaker 3: When things we perceive that as hard are just moving
[1:54:28] Speaker 3: very slowly. But even glass is liquid technically, so I
[1:54:35] Speaker 3: think that many of the beings can simply adjust our
[1:54:39] Speaker 3: level of vibration so that the cells, our cells can
[1:54:44] Speaker 3: pass through similar cells that they adjust like through a
[1:54:48] Speaker 3: solid object. It seems to be an adjustment, and that's it.
[1:54:53] Speaker 1: Along the same lines, these beings seem to be able
[1:54:57] Speaker 1: to be around us at all times, and just not
[1:55:00] Speaker 1: in our visible spectrum. I've talked with a couple of
[1:55:03] Speaker 1: contactes who said that they've had interactions with these beings,
[1:55:08] Speaker 1: who said that they can see them. They just they
[1:55:11] Speaker 1: can't see us, but they can adjust our vision to
[1:55:15] Speaker 1: where we can see them somehow. It's very interesting.
[1:55:19] Speaker 3: That's absolutely absolutely true. This is exactly what I'm what
[1:55:23] Speaker 3: I'm hearing, and which is now the only the only
[1:55:28] Speaker 3: difference that people seem to experience. If there's an et
[1:55:31] Speaker 3: presence that is not manifesting fully physically, as opposed to
[1:55:37] Speaker 3: a discarnate spirit, like a humanoid spirit that doesn't know
[1:55:42] Speaker 3: they're dead, or is like hanging out and hasn't moved
[1:55:45] Speaker 3: on the spirit. Energy of the discarnate spirit will create
[1:55:49] Speaker 3: cold spots because they're trying to grab energy and manifest.
[1:55:54] Speaker 3: I have found that when beings who are extraterrestrial but
[1:56:00] Speaker 3: are not fully physicalized are trying to manifest, it's an
[1:56:04] Speaker 3: atmosphere of warmth, it's warm energy. It has a completely
[1:56:09] Speaker 3: different feeling than anything that you would call spooky or
[1:56:15] Speaker 3: or ghost like. Right. So, but yes, they are existing
[1:56:20] Speaker 3: in a different vibratory spectrum so that we can't necessarily
[1:56:26] Speaker 3: see them, but they can make it so that we
[1:56:28] Speaker 3: do see them. But it takes a lot of effort
[1:56:31] Speaker 3: for some beings, you know, and some beings are completely
[1:56:35] Speaker 3: physical in the way that we are. They just have
[1:56:37] Speaker 3: better tech.
[1:56:40] Speaker 1: Now it's the past few years you mentioned, you know,
[1:56:44] Speaker 1: people kind of awakening. I've noticed a shift in consciousness.
[1:56:50] Speaker 1: It seems to be wobbly, it seems to be up
[1:56:52] Speaker 1: and down.
[1:56:53] Speaker 3: But I think that.
[1:56:55] Speaker 1: More people are becoming more open minded now with all
[1:56:59] Speaker 1: the stuff in the main stream, with the et stuff,
[1:57:01] Speaker 1: I think more people might feel more comfortable talking about
[1:57:06] Speaker 1: their experiences, talking about things they've seen. You know, they're
[1:57:09] Speaker 1: letting the navy pilots report this stuff. Have you found
[1:57:12] Speaker 1: that more people since this whole UFO stuff has been
[1:57:15] Speaker 1: in the mainstream have been talking about this to you?
[1:57:19] Speaker 2: Oh?
[1:57:19] Speaker 3: Absolutely, and even you know, the amount of people that
[1:57:23] Speaker 3: come to me, it accelerates all the time. And I
[1:57:26] Speaker 3: mean just just look at the media. You know, you're
[1:57:30] Speaker 3: you're a young whipper snapper, but you know a few
[1:57:33] Speaker 3: years ago, there was hardly any programming on the major
[1:57:37] Speaker 3: networks that dealt with this type of subject matter. Certainly,
[1:57:42] Speaker 3: nothing is in depth as all the wonderful programming that
[1:57:45] Speaker 3: we have. Not only alternative programming and podcasting and such
[1:57:48] Speaker 3: like yourselves, but even the major networks are forced to have,
[1:57:53] Speaker 3: you know, all kinds of programming, you know, the Alaska Triangle,
[1:57:57] Speaker 3: this that. So I think I think we are really
[1:58:02] Speaker 3: on the crest. We're on the crest of huge disclosure,
[1:58:06] Speaker 3: in huge, huge progress. We really really are. But I
[1:58:12] Speaker 3: think if we're looking for, you know, like a benevolent
[1:58:18] Speaker 3: superhero gonna happen. I think I think we have to
[1:58:33] Speaker 3: We have to be responsible for our own evolution. We
[1:58:38] Speaker 3: really do. And it's all within our power. It's all
[1:58:43] Speaker 3: within our power right now. We can change anything. We
[1:58:48] Speaker 3: just have to agree upon it and do it.
[1:58:52] Speaker 1: Yes, very well said, I agree. It's going to be
[1:58:55] Speaker 1: up to us to make those changes, Leslie. I want
[1:58:58] Speaker 1: to thank you so much for coming on before you
[1:59:00] Speaker 1: head out. If anyone in our audience has an experience
[1:59:05] Speaker 1: that they, you know, be interested in possibly talking to
[1:59:08] Speaker 1: you about finding out more information about you your books,
[1:59:12] Speaker 1: what's the best way for them to do so?
[1:59:15] Speaker 3: Well, my mobile phone is always on. You can always
[1:59:20] Speaker 3: text me or ring me at four one six four
[1:59:25] Speaker 3: five four eight zero four one. Even if you just
[1:59:30] Speaker 3: want to chat, you know, if you just need some support,
[1:59:34] Speaker 3: some information, please call me and you can always email
[1:59:38] Speaker 3: me at Leslie l E s l e Y at
[1:59:43] Speaker 3: LightWork Hypnosis. That's all one word, LightWork Hypnosis dot com.
[1:59:48] Speaker 3: So text me, ring me, email me. I am happy
[1:59:55] Speaker 3: to hear. I'm happy to hear from anyone even if
[1:59:58] Speaker 3: you even if you just want support, if you're not
[2:00:01] Speaker 3: ready to explore it with any process, I don't care.
[2:00:05] Speaker 3: I'm here. I'm here as a support system, and I
[2:00:08] Speaker 3: have many colleagues that are also right by my side
[2:00:11] Speaker 3: as support systems.
[2:00:12] Speaker 2: It's not just me.
[2:00:14] Speaker 3: There's a whole whack of us ready to help people
[2:00:18] Speaker 3: in any way.
[2:00:19] Speaker 2: That we can.
[2:00:20] Speaker 1: Awesome, Leslie, thank you so much. You know, I have
[2:00:23] Speaker 1: a whole list of stuff that we didn't get to tonight.
[2:00:26] Speaker 1: So definitely I'm gonna have to have you back on
[2:00:28] Speaker 1: so we can cover some more.
[2:00:30] Speaker 3: Yeah, you better believe it, Chris, anytime you like, I'd
[2:00:34] Speaker 3: be so happy to chat with you. That's right. We
[2:00:36] Speaker 3: just sort of skimmed the surface, but I would love
[2:00:41] Speaker 3: to come back and visit you anytime.
[2:00:43] Speaker 1: Definitely, we'll schedule something. And all right, so much again
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