# Jim Tate | Elders at the Threshold: Psychedelics For Seniors, Healing, Spirituality & Contact

An episode of [Forbidden Knowledge News](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1470192028), 3 Sep 2026, 1 h 01 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/74875219/fknepisodesjtate_hd_720p_medium_fr30_03092026.mp3

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## Transcript

[0:02] Speaker 1: I think it's just going to get weirder and weirder
[0:04] Speaker 1: and weirder. And finally, it's going to be so weird
[0:08] Speaker 1: that people are going to have to talk about how
[0:10] Speaker 1: weird it is. Welcome back to Forbidden Knowledge News. I'm
[0:14] Speaker 1: your host, Chris Matthew. Today, my guest is Jim Tate.
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[0:50] Speaker 1: Today I want to welcome Jim Tate. He is a
[0:52] Speaker 1: writer and investigator covering psychedelic medicines culture and scientific revival.
[0:58] Speaker 2: Jim, welcome.
[0:59] Speaker 1: How you doing?
[1:01] Speaker 2: You know, Chris, I'm doing great. I'm on the East Coast.
[1:04] Speaker 2: I'm in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. So it's a little
[1:07] Speaker 2: bit later in the day for me than it is yours,
[1:09] Speaker 2: but I've been looking forward to having this conversation with you, Chris.
[1:13] Speaker 1: As have I. I've really been looking forward to this.
[1:15] Speaker 1: We're going to get into your book, Elders at the Threshold,
[1:19] Speaker 1: Psychedelics for Seniors, A Practical Guide to the Science, Safety,
[1:24] Speaker 1: and Promise of Psychedelic Medicine Later in Life. Myself being
[1:28] Speaker 1: a former psychonaut and ongoing mushroom farmer and occasional microdoser,
[1:33] Speaker 1: I really love this topic. Psychedelics have contributed so much
[1:37] Speaker 1: to the prosperity of my life, my mental and emotional health.
[1:42] Speaker 1: And there's also been very exciting studies recently about the
[1:47] Speaker 1: benefits of psychedelics for things like addiction, depression, even possibly Alzheimer's.
[1:53] Speaker 1: So very exciting things emerging right now, and I'm looking
[1:56] Speaker 1: forward to the research you've been doing. Before we get
[1:59] Speaker 1: into it, this is your first time on. Tell the
[2:01] Speaker 1: audience a little bit about yourself and let them know
[2:04] Speaker 1: how they can get more.
[2:05] Speaker 2: Sure. Well, thank you, Chris. Again, I'm Jim Tate. I'm
[2:11] Speaker 2: in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I first encountered psychedelics in
[2:15] Speaker 2: 1967 during the Summer of Love. That was a time
[2:20] Speaker 2: when the underground chemists were wide open. and uh new
[2:25] Speaker 2: mexico california united kingdom uh and so the whole concept
[2:32] Speaker 2: of uh harm reduction set and setting we didn't know
[2:35] Speaker 2: anything about that at all so you know it was
[2:38] Speaker 2: just you take a strong dose of something and go
[2:42] Speaker 2: to a movie go to a restaurant go to the
[2:44] Speaker 2: mall not always the most pleasant experience right when you're
[2:49] Speaker 2: in those uh vulnerable states but uh So kind of
[2:56] Speaker 2: connected with psychedelics very early on, Chris. And then about
[3:00] Speaker 2: five years ago, kind of started seeing this renaissance, as
[3:08] Speaker 2: they call it. We had 50 years of the world drugs,
[3:12] Speaker 2: no research, no anything. Chemists were given life sentences. So
[3:19] Speaker 2: everything was shut down for about 50 years. It was
[3:22] Speaker 2: a real propaganda war. And so, uh, psychedelics cannot be suppressed, uh, forever.
[3:32] Speaker 2: They certainly are not for everybody, but then for some people,
[3:36] Speaker 2: whether it's for treatment of depression or anxiety or fear
[3:41] Speaker 2: of death, or just for having fun, you know, what's
[3:44] Speaker 2: wrong with having fun or for, uh, a spiritual path, uh,
[3:49] Speaker 2: many different approaches to these compounds. So I got fascinated
[3:54] Speaker 2: by it again, Chris. Started talking to a lot of people.
[3:58] Speaker 2: Started talking to a lot of chemists, a lot of
[4:00] Speaker 2: people in laboratories, a lot of the retreat centers in Oregon,
[4:06] Speaker 2: retreat centers in Jamaica, Costa Rica, Mexico, all over. And
[4:10] Speaker 2: so it's been a real journey. And so I have
[4:14] Speaker 2: a sub stack. I can be followed. Actually, my main
[4:19] Speaker 2: website is silencia.com. P-S-Y-L-E-N-C-I-A, silentc.com. I'm a Mac of own
[4:27] Speaker 2: sub stack. I have a couple of podcasts I do.
[4:31] Speaker 2: One called Inside the Revival, where I interview a lot
[4:35] Speaker 2: of folks. And then I like to interview, just interview,
[4:41] Speaker 2: before this one, for a podcast called The Psychedelic Silver Screen,
[4:47] Speaker 2: where I interview folks who are making movies. About psychedelics
[4:51] Speaker 2: and psychedelic bookshelf. So all over it, fascinated about where
[4:55] Speaker 2: we are. Wish a lot of these open questions had
[4:58] Speaker 2: been answered 30 or 40 years ago, but they haven't.
[5:02] Speaker 2: I believe we are on the threshold of above ground
[5:06] Speaker 2: use of psychedelics. But just because something is legal doesn't
[5:11] Speaker 2: mean that there's access. I expect the underground. And so,
[5:16] Speaker 2: you know, I'm, Again, it's not for everybody, but we
[5:20] Speaker 2: want safe access, safe, affordable access.
[5:24] Speaker 1: Right on. Let's start with a synopsis of the book,
[5:29] Speaker 1: Elders at the Threshold. Tell us a little bit about it.
[5:32] Speaker 2: Yep, exactly. Folks who are in their 50s, 60s or
[5:37] Speaker 2: 70s and who maybe experienced psychedelics in their youth and
[5:42] Speaker 2: then stepped away to raise their families when they really
[5:46] Speaker 2: know underground or folks in that age group, my age group,
[5:53] Speaker 2: who are coming, you know, they read things, maybe they
[5:58] Speaker 2: read Michael Pollan's book, How to Change Your Mind, or
[6:02] Speaker 2: they're hearing from people and they see these news things
[6:06] Speaker 2: about the research trials that have very promising results. And
[6:12] Speaker 2: so folks in my age, you know, for us to
[6:18] Speaker 2: carry a lifetime of experience. And some of that experience
[6:21] Speaker 2: is grief. Relationships that didn't go well, careers that didn't
[6:25] Speaker 2: go well, dearly loved pets that died. So there's a
[6:32] Speaker 2: lot of grief for folks our age because there's been
[6:34] Speaker 2: certainly a lot of loss. And then also kind of
[6:38] Speaker 2: a unique aspect of anxiety around mortality. We've known folks
[6:44] Speaker 2: our age and friends who have died. So we're kind
[6:47] Speaker 2: of approaching that next chapter now ourself. So the experience
[6:55] Speaker 2: can be very different for people in their 50s, 60s,
[6:59] Speaker 2: and 70s. And so my book really is addressed to
[7:03] Speaker 2: my generation, but maybe also for the children and providers
[7:08] Speaker 2: who take care of that generation because folks are going
[7:11] Speaker 2: to be asking questions. We want to do this safely
[7:15] Speaker 2: for folks I've got a very wide scope of interest
[7:18] Speaker 2: in psychedelics, Chris, but particularly folks in my age group
[7:25] Speaker 2: who are drawn to psychedelics and harm reduction, it's a
[7:30] Speaker 2: good idea to say, well, here's how to do it safe.
[7:34] Speaker 2: Folks in their 60s or 70s may be on four
[7:37] Speaker 2: or five different medications, so contraindications, that kind of stuff.
[7:42] Speaker 2: Some of the very strong psychedelics, like ayahuasca, uh, or
[7:47] Speaker 2: ibogaine may not be totally appropriate as a first step
[7:52] Speaker 2: for anybody who wants to go into this. Yeah. Uh,
[7:55] Speaker 2: you've got a big experience with mushrooms and psilocybin. That's
[7:58] Speaker 2: probably a much safer path for folks, uh, who are older,
[8:03] Speaker 2: who are called to this.
[8:05] Speaker 1: Why do you think during this time period that the
[8:09] Speaker 1: research is being allowed and this information is circulating more freely?
[8:15] Speaker 2: You know, um, It's really interesting. We had 50 years
[8:19] Speaker 2: of propaganda that said your chromosomes would be scrambled and
[8:23] Speaker 2: basically your children would be born with pigtails, you know,
[8:31] Speaker 2: and everything in between. So there was a lot of
[8:33] Speaker 2: that kind of propaganda. The real break, I think, happened
[8:38] Speaker 2: in 1990. Rick Strassman was the first person in over
[8:47] Speaker 2: 20 years to be allowed to give psychedelics to humans.
[8:52] Speaker 2: And that led to his book and the movie, DMT,
[8:57] Speaker 2: The Spirit Molecule. And so that kind of cracked the door.
[9:01] Speaker 2: And then the Imperial College in London, Johns Hopkins, some
[9:09] Speaker 2: places in California started doing clinical research. after decades of
[9:15] Speaker 2: when there was no funding for research, any serious scientists,
[9:22] Speaker 2: it was the end of their career if they got
[9:24] Speaker 2: involved with this crazy path of psychedelics. That's kind of
[9:28] Speaker 2: worn down somewhat. And so to me, one of the most,
[9:34] Speaker 2: I guess, brilliant marketing things, kind of the Trojan horse
[9:38] Speaker 2: of all this, was that, and this kind of united
[9:44] Speaker 2: the people who were on the, like a better term,
[9:47] Speaker 2: the right and the left, is that these folks who
[9:51] Speaker 2: had been veterans in Afghanistan or other parts of the world,
[9:58] Speaker 2: did all these tours of duties, seen horrible things, been
[10:01] Speaker 2: involved in horrible things, came out with terrible PSTD. And
[10:05] Speaker 2: it was very hard to say that if this, if
[10:08] Speaker 2: psilocybin and maybe some other of these plant medicines could
[10:13] Speaker 2: help them, how can we deny them that? And so
[10:16] Speaker 2: there was a rise on both sides of the political
[10:21] Speaker 2: landscape to say, well, maybe we should allow it for them.
[10:27] Speaker 2: And so certainly a lot of books coming out, a
[10:32] Speaker 2: lot of documentaries, a lot of word of mouth. Of course,
[10:37] Speaker 2: you're in Colorado, Chris, where there is a very active
[10:42] Speaker 2: above ground and underground The rest of the country, well,
[10:46] Speaker 2: Oregon is above ground and underground, but a very active
[10:51] Speaker 2: underground in this, really all over the United States. Now,
[10:55] Speaker 2: I think we're within, if not by the end of
[10:59] Speaker 2: the year, by early 2027, FDA, I believe, is on
[11:02] Speaker 2: track to approve a synthetic version of psilocybin and maybe
[11:07] Speaker 2: MDMA again after the failure three years ago. But legalization
[11:12] Speaker 2: does not mean access, right? Yeah. So we need affordable access.
[11:18] Speaker 2: We need safe access. And, you know, just for me
[11:23] Speaker 2: as an observer, somebody who thinks about and writes about it,
[11:26] Speaker 2: how this is going to be scaled out, how this
[11:28] Speaker 2: is going to be made available, what are the reimbursement modalities,
[11:32] Speaker 2: all those kind of things. We're in a kind of
[11:36] Speaker 2: a dynamic thing. There are no standards for most of
[11:38] Speaker 2: the retreat centers. So there's a lot of hocus-pocus stuff
[11:45] Speaker 2: And people call themselves shamans who are not shamans. But
[11:54] Speaker 2: I'm also fascinated by the history, the indigenous history. So
[11:59] Speaker 2: there's a world of information and I'm interested in all
[12:02] Speaker 2: of it.
[12:03] Speaker 1: Is there any particular substances that you focused on in
[12:07] Speaker 1: the book? You mentioned ayahuasca, ibogaine may not be the
[12:12] Speaker 1: best to start out with. which substances did you really
[12:16] Speaker 1: focus on?
[12:16] Speaker 2: I think of all the classic psychedelics, the safest one,
[12:25] Speaker 2: somebody going down this path, is psilocybin. In recorded history,
[12:29] Speaker 2: nobody has ever died from an overdose of psilocybin. And so,
[12:35] Speaker 2: as opposed to some incredibly strong substance like LSD, which
[12:44] Speaker 2: you know, will wear a person out. You know, you
[12:47] Speaker 2: can have maybe three, four, six hours of psilocybin experience.
[12:52] Speaker 2: LSD may not let go of you for eight or
[12:54] Speaker 2: 10 hours. And so for folks who don't have the
[12:58] Speaker 2: stamina for that intense, long period, it wouldn't be appropriate.
[13:03] Speaker 2: I think Ibogaine, which to me, I'm just fascinated by Ibogaine,
[13:10] Speaker 2: which is not a classic psychedelic because it hits different
[13:13] Speaker 2: brain receptors, neuroreceptors, but has the fascinating ability to be
[13:22] Speaker 2: now a recognized treatment for opioid addiction.
[13:27] Speaker 1: What exactly is ibogaine? Is this the extract from the
[13:31] Speaker 1: frog or something different?
[13:33] Speaker 2: No, no, no. Good question. Iboga is a plant in Africa.
[13:38] Speaker 2: And the root of that plant can be scraped off
[13:44] Speaker 2: and powdered. That's ibogaine. Okay. And so ibogaine is a
[13:52] Speaker 2: very interesting drug because the ego essentially remains intact during
[13:59] Speaker 2: the experience. And there can be, many people describe it
[14:03] Speaker 2: as almost looking at a slideshow of their life. where
[14:07] Speaker 2: different instances of their life appear often when there was
[14:13] Speaker 2: maybe a problematic relationship or something, but you view it impartially,
[14:18] Speaker 2: like from a third person's view and kind of come
[14:23] Speaker 2: to terms with it. And so it can often last,
[14:27] Speaker 2: you know, eight to 16 hours. And then there's, you know,
[14:31] Speaker 2: it kind of continues. There's something called a gray day.
[14:34] Speaker 2: So it is literally a two plus, day experience. There
[14:40] Speaker 2: have been cases of deaths associated with Ibogaine. I don't
[14:45] Speaker 2: know how many. Recorded, less than 50. But still, there's
[14:52] Speaker 2: a potential for cardiac toxicity, so people need to be careful.
[14:55] Speaker 2: Need to be well-screened with that. You mentioned, I think
[14:58] Speaker 2: you mentioned ayahuasca. Of course, ayahuasca, what's in ayahuasca is
[15:06] Speaker 2: the The actual psychedelic is DMT.
[15:09] Speaker 1: Right.
[15:10] Speaker 2: DMT occurs in ayahuasca. The human body manufactures it. A
[15:15] Speaker 2: lot of plants manufacture it. What is taken as part
[15:22] Speaker 2: of an ayahuasca ceremony kind of comes on slowly, but
[15:27] Speaker 2: it's in the body a long time, so it's constantly
[15:31] Speaker 2: causing that blood-brain barrier. When it smokes, the actual active
[15:36] Speaker 2: compound DMT, literally in, you know, 20 or 30 heartbeats,
[15:45] Speaker 2: you're at the full experience. And may only last 10
[15:49] Speaker 2: or 15 minutes. So it's kind of fascinating that a
[15:54] Speaker 2: lot of work being done, including in your state, Colorado,
[15:56] Speaker 2: with Daniel McQueen of extended state DMT, where people are
[16:03] Speaker 2: capped in that state by continuous infusion for an hour,
[16:08] Speaker 2: two hours, maybe up to three hours. You know, the
[16:11] Speaker 2: fascinating thing about DMT is almost everybody reports they encounter entities.
[16:17] Speaker 2: That's one of the kind of fascinating aspects. You know,
[16:20] Speaker 2: you've probably heard that.
[16:23] Speaker 1: I've also heard about the strange phenomena of people being
[16:26] Speaker 1: kicked out of the DMT realm by some of these entities,
[16:30] Speaker 1: being told they weren't supposed to be there or they
[16:32] Speaker 1: weren't ready for that. And the next thing they know,
[16:35] Speaker 1: they're out of it and they can't even feel the
[16:37] Speaker 1: effects of DMT, sometimes for an extended period of time.
[16:43] Speaker 2: Or they feel like they're being told you're coming too often. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[16:49] Speaker 2: So that is fascinating. And of course, a lot of
[16:53] Speaker 2: research goes into that. To me, the best book on DMT,
[16:56] Speaker 2: there's a couple of great ones. There's a very personal
[16:59] Speaker 2: book by Adam Butler.
[17:01] Speaker 1: Yes, I've had Adam on a couple of times.
[17:03] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, on DMT. But the seminal book is called
[17:10] Speaker 2: Death by Astonishment by Andrew Gallimore. And he gets that phrase.
[17:19] Speaker 2: He did a lot of work at the Imperial College,
[17:21] Speaker 2: and he's very involved in extended state DMT work. He
[17:26] Speaker 2: got that phrase, death by astonishment, from Terrence McKenna. You right,
[17:30] Speaker 2: Terrence McKenna? Left us much too early.
[17:34] Speaker 1: Uh, I've talked with Dennis before as well.
[17:36] Speaker 2: Oh yeah, exactly. And you know, there is a, uh,
[17:40] Speaker 2: the history between those two, uh, you know, they wrote
[17:44] Speaker 2: a book, uh, that each wrote books about their same
[17:48] Speaker 2: experience with fields of psilocybin, you know, in South America.
[17:53] Speaker 2: One's called, I think true hallucinations. The other one is
[17:55] Speaker 2: the screaming, the brotherhood of the screaming abyss. So, you know,
[17:58] Speaker 2: a fascinating, uh, tales about them. But, um, I lost
[18:04] Speaker 2: track of what we were talking about before we talked. DMT. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[18:09] Speaker 2: Somebody asked Terrence McKenna if DMT was dangerous, and he
[18:12] Speaker 2: said only if you fear death by astonishment. So I've
[18:17] Speaker 2: never done DMT. Many people are astonished by the impact
[18:24] Speaker 2: of that. And, of course, it doesn't last very long
[18:27] Speaker 2: unless it's in an ayahuasca format or extended state. So
[18:32] Speaker 2: that brings us to the question, Chris, what are these entities? Right.
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[20:01] Speaker 1: to me because even through my psilocybin experiences, there have
[20:05] Speaker 1: been a few very profound and powerful experiences. where it
[20:10] Speaker 1: seemed like I was in contact with some kind of intelligence.
[20:15] Speaker 1: This happened multiple times, and I understand this can happen
[20:19] Speaker 1: throughout any kind of psychedelic experience. Some theories are that
[20:23] Speaker 1: it's aspects of our self, our subconscious, our higher self.
[20:28] Speaker 1: Others believe that they are extraterrestrials or angelic beings, interdimensional beings.
[20:33] Speaker 1: I think it could be all of the above.
[20:36] Speaker 2: You know, the way I come down, and You know,
[20:39] Speaker 2: it is so universally recognized that this is a common occurrence.
[20:46] Speaker 2: And Rick Strassman, in his research in the early 1990s,
[20:52] Speaker 2: that's what fascinated him, is he was collecting information. Everybody
[20:56] Speaker 2: was telling him the same thing. There were these beans
[20:58] Speaker 2: here and things like that. Whether it is... an alternate
[21:05] Speaker 2: or overlapping dimension, whether it's something else, whether it's our
[21:08] Speaker 2: deep self. To me, that is interesting, but does it
[21:14] Speaker 2: really matter? I believe there's knowledge there. And where that
[21:19] Speaker 2: knowledge is coming from is kind of secondary from the
[21:23] Speaker 2: fact that there is knowledge there.
[21:26] Speaker 1: And it seems to be tailored for us, for us
[21:29] Speaker 1: to be able to use the knowledge and benefit from it.
[21:33] Speaker 1: Each experience seems to be very personal.
[21:36] Speaker 2: Yep, absolutely. You know, another psychedelic that kind of has
[21:42] Speaker 2: a bad rap is salvia.
[21:45] Speaker 1: Yes. I've heard some horror stories.
[21:48] Speaker 2: Well, see, that's it. And that's why it is not
[21:51] Speaker 2: even by the federal government on the controlled substance list.
[21:54] Speaker 2: Because people say, I took it one time, I'm never
[21:57] Speaker 2: going to take it again. They figure there's no chance
[22:00] Speaker 2: for abuse there. Right. But those horror stories are based
[22:04] Speaker 2: on people essentially smoking a massive overdose. It is really
[22:13] Speaker 2: what it is. And in Mexico, outside Oaxaca, you know,
[22:18] Speaker 2: up in the mountains, there are three, what they call
[22:23] Speaker 2: magical plants, or the mushrooms, there's the salvia, and the
[22:26] Speaker 2: morning glory seeds. And their approach is, to salvia is
[22:32] Speaker 2: a very slow approach you know how people will say
[22:36] Speaker 2: that um they're different uh gender almost gender specific spirits
[22:42] Speaker 2: behind these different yeah plants you know like a grandfather
[22:47] Speaker 2: grandmother stuff like that and they'll come and uh maybe
[22:51] Speaker 2: love on you but maybe uh kick you and say
[22:54] Speaker 2: you need to stop drinking so much yeah who knows
[22:57] Speaker 2: what um they say uh There's a guy in Northern California,
[23:02] Speaker 2: Christopher Solomon, who's really, I can't say enough about his
[23:06] Speaker 2: work with Salvia, but that the spirit behind Salvia is
[23:11] Speaker 2: a very shy spirit and his best approach on tiptoe.
[23:16] Speaker 2: But he recommends very, very low doses, like maybe five
[23:20] Speaker 2: minutes just to tiptoe right to the edge of the
[23:25] Speaker 2: abyss of that rather than just get launched into space. Yeah. Yeah.
[23:30] Speaker 2: Totally discombobulated, but fascinating.
[23:33] Speaker 1: So have you had positive experiences with salvia?
[23:37] Speaker 2: Absolutely. Just because from, you know, knowledge that I gained
[23:45] Speaker 2: from Chris Solomon.
[23:48] Speaker 1: You mentioned synthetic psychedelics earlier that they may be developing
[23:53] Speaker 1: a synthetic psilocybin. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
[23:57] Speaker 1: I've never been big on synthetics. I've never really enjoyed
[24:01] Speaker 1: LSD that much, except for when I was a young
[24:03] Speaker 1: kid partying, but it doesn't have the same benefits for
[24:06] Speaker 1: me that psilocybin does. Are you concerned at all about
[24:11] Speaker 1: synthesizing these phlegodelics?
[24:13] Speaker 2: Well, I certainly think about it a lot, and all
[24:16] Speaker 2: the research isn't in, but what the FDA is most
[24:20] Speaker 2: likely going to be approving for the end of this
[24:23] Speaker 2: year or early 2027 is by a company out of
[24:27] Speaker 2: the United Kingdom called Compass. Is there synthetic psilocybin? It
[24:33] Speaker 2: is psilocybin. It's called Comp360. And that's what the FDA
[24:40] Speaker 2: is going to be approving if approval comes through. And
[24:45] Speaker 2: it does look like it because they paid for all
[24:47] Speaker 2: the clinical trials. You know, there's something that's called an
[24:52] Speaker 2: entourage effect.
[24:54] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
[24:54] Speaker 2: That some folks talk about, yeah, there's psilocybin, but there's
[24:59] Speaker 2: also these other compounds that are related to psilocybin that
[25:04] Speaker 2: are in the mushrooms. Yes. And they act in concert with,
[25:10] Speaker 2: whether it's Ansovel or Entourage or whatever you call it.
[25:17] Speaker 2: You know, it may be fine, but the one thing
[25:21] Speaker 2: we do know is that for Five or 10,000 years,
[25:24] Speaker 2: humans have done psilocybin mushrooms. And so there is a
[25:30] Speaker 2: legacy there that has proven to be safe and effective
[25:39] Speaker 2: and essentially no cost to it and no control over.
[25:45] Speaker 2: I hope that will always be available, but kind of
[25:49] Speaker 2: like you hint at here, Chris, Uh, the pharmaceutical companies
[25:54] Speaker 2: are coming. Um, uh, you know, um, let's see, I'm
[26:01] Speaker 2: trying to think, um, Lily just purchased, uh, uh, Beckley for,
[26:08] Speaker 2: I think, I don't know, $ 3. 8 billion maybe for their compounds.
[26:13] Speaker 1: Uh, as far as my experiences with the synthetic psychedelics,
[26:19] Speaker 1: I have tried synthetic psilocybin once. I would never go
[26:23] Speaker 1: back to it. It seemed like it was missing a
[26:27] Speaker 1: very important part of the experience. If I were to
[26:31] Speaker 1: be just eating the raw mushroom, there was a much
[26:35] Speaker 1: deeper level that I would be able to access. And
[26:39] Speaker 1: also through the synthetics, there was no connection to that
[26:43] Speaker 1: oneness feeling that I had through the natural mushrooms. That
[26:48] Speaker 1: may have just been my personal experience with it. I
[26:50] Speaker 1: may have gotten a bad batch, but It wasn't something
[26:54] Speaker 1: enjoyable like the natural experience for me.
[26:56] Speaker 2: Sure, I understand. You know, something you touched on earlier,
[27:00] Speaker 2: I want to bring it back up. You talked about microdosing.
[27:02] Speaker 2: So what do you think about microdosing?
[27:05] Speaker 1: I love microdosing. That's the one way that I have
[27:09] Speaker 1: been ingesting mushrooms lately. For me, most of my heavy work,
[27:15] Speaker 1: healing trauma and emotions was done with very high doses,
[27:19] Speaker 1: three to five grams at a time. I feel like
[27:22] Speaker 1: I dove in headfirst and really covered a lot of
[27:26] Speaker 1: ground with those high doses. I no longer feel like
[27:29] Speaker 1: I need those. Microdosing for me is a good way
[27:34] Speaker 1: to keep everything going and running smoothly.
[27:38] Speaker 2: You know, there's something... We need a lot more research
[27:44] Speaker 2: on that. But I tell you, almost anybody that I...
[27:48] Speaker 2: A lot of this is anecdotal, of course. But I'm
[27:51] Speaker 2: surprised by how many people that I talk to or interview,
[27:54] Speaker 2: regardless of what their age, microdose. So it has become
[28:00] Speaker 2: an accepted. Of course, that's subclinical. You know, people may
[28:07] Speaker 2: just notice a mood shift. Yeah. Which, you know, is
[28:12] Speaker 2: kind of fascinating.
[28:14] Speaker 1: Do you have any thoughts on what is unfolding in
[28:18] Speaker 1: the brain? What scientifically is occurring? You hear the discussion
[28:23] Speaker 1: of reconnecting neural pathways, but what does that really mean?
[28:28] Speaker 1: Do you have any understanding of what's going on there?
[28:30] Speaker 2: Well, just because I've talked to some people who understand it.
[28:35] Speaker 2: There's something called neurogenesis, and there's this concept of plasticity,
[28:42] Speaker 2: kind of based on the concept that when a child
[28:46] Speaker 2: is seven or eight years old or even younger, they
[28:50] Speaker 2: can learn a second language pretty quickly. It would take
[28:55] Speaker 2: you a little bit longer. It'd take me a lot
[28:57] Speaker 2: longer because our brains are not able to absorb and
[29:04] Speaker 2: learn as well. And so the belief and evidence points
[29:13] Speaker 2: towards that psychedelics opens up a window of a period
[29:18] Speaker 2: of time in which it is easier to form new behaviors,
[29:26] Speaker 2: deal with coping mechanisms that don't work anymore, those kind
[29:30] Speaker 2: of things. Now, again, you know, we had many years
[29:34] Speaker 2: with no research, so all the research didn't end, but
[29:37] Speaker 2: I had a thing or, interviewed many people who said
[29:41] Speaker 2: that they felt that a period of the open window
[29:47] Speaker 2: after a psychedelic experience was directly related to the depth
[29:54] Speaker 2: and length of a psychedelic experience. it would give you
[29:58] Speaker 2: more of a pulse towards that open thing. But when
[30:02] Speaker 2: I was talking to Rick Strassman last week, he told me,
[30:06] Speaker 2: you know, well, yeah, but the research shows that animal
[30:12] Speaker 2: research with rats shows that even on the commensurate microdose level,
[30:19] Speaker 2: they can still see those brain changes. So, you know,
[30:23] Speaker 2: one thing is opening up that dominant brain network, a
[30:31] Speaker 2: default network for change, but then the ability to possibly
[30:38] Speaker 2: actually have new dendrite growth has certainly been explored. There's
[30:47] Speaker 2: a big move with a lot of research money behind
[30:51] Speaker 2: it to try and take the psychedelic experience out of psychedelics. Now,
[30:57] Speaker 2: And that has a good path because DMT, in particular,
[31:05] Speaker 2: seems to be able to abruptly and radically reduce brain inflammation,
[31:13] Speaker 2: increase blood flow in the brain, and create new pathways.
[31:18] Speaker 2: And so the research, of course, that's being done is
[31:21] Speaker 2: the potential that if somebody comes to the emergency room
[31:25] Speaker 2: who's had a stroke and you can give them a
[31:29] Speaker 2: big dose of DMT that might have all that positive
[31:33] Speaker 2: brain effect protective and recovery without them having to go
[31:38] Speaker 2: through a psychedelic experience.
[31:40] Speaker 1: See, that's interesting. I would think the experience itself is
[31:45] Speaker 1: making the changes in a person that is reconnecting everything.
[31:49] Speaker 1: If they wouldn't have these profound experiences, would it still
[31:52] Speaker 1: affect them in the same way?
[31:57] Speaker 2: Research yet to be done. We're just kind of guessing
[31:59] Speaker 2: at those things. Again, no research for an entire generation.
[32:09] Speaker 2: But that research is underway. I'm in Chapel Hill, just
[32:12] Speaker 2: down the street here, University of North Carolina. Brian Roth Lab,
[32:16] Speaker 2: they've been given $ 26 million to see if they can
[32:21] Speaker 2: take the experience out. Many people who are knowledgeable in
[32:25] Speaker 2: the field say, you know, kind of poo-poo the idea.
[32:30] Speaker 2: But again, this kind of research is not based on
[32:37] Speaker 2: having a certain kind of experience, experience of wonder, of awe,
[32:42] Speaker 2: of healing, you know, psychologically or emotionally, or being able
[32:47] Speaker 2: to face traumatic events in your life. You know, I
[32:50] Speaker 2: think you need the psychedelic experience for those things.
[32:54] Speaker 1: Let's get into some of the clinical research for seniors. Earlier,
[32:58] Speaker 1: we mentioned trials and research going on with Alzheimer's patients
[33:03] Speaker 1: seem to be extremely beneficial and have a lot of
[33:07] Speaker 1: promise so far. But what are some that you've looked at?
[33:10] Speaker 2: Well, you know, everybody who lives long enough is going
[33:16] Speaker 2: to have cognitive decline. So whether it is somebody who
[33:21] Speaker 2: has a disease like Alzheimer's, or it's just age-related cognitive decline,
[33:29] Speaker 2: not even classified maybe as dementia. My guess is that
[33:38] Speaker 2: there could be some very positive effects because these experiences
[33:45] Speaker 2: are not only, again, affecting our consciousness and our experience
[33:50] Speaker 2: of consciousness, but actually having an effect on the brain.
[33:55] Speaker 2: And I think it's a fascinating area. You know, in
[34:02] Speaker 2: the media, the media likes to hype. It was the
[34:04] Speaker 2: media that beat the drums in the 60s and 70s
[34:10] Speaker 2: that said this was evil devil stuff. Nobody should get
[34:14] Speaker 2: involved with it. And now that the media has kind
[34:17] Speaker 2: of switched to an overhype and, you know, there was
[34:21] Speaker 2: I saw it in a number of different outlets of
[34:23] Speaker 2: a woman in her 80s who had some type of
[34:26] Speaker 2: dementia and somebody gave her a bunch of mushrooms. And,
[34:29] Speaker 2: you know, within a day or so, she was talking
[34:32] Speaker 2: again or something like that. I don't think it lasted
[34:36] Speaker 2: very long.
[34:37] Speaker 1: Right.
[34:37] Speaker 2: But there's a potential for a lot of false hope.
[34:42] Speaker 2: But again, psilocybin in particular. That's a safe thing. That's
[34:47] Speaker 2: incredibly safe. There's no known toxic level of it.
[34:52] Speaker 1: I'd be fascinated to see long-term research say if someone
[34:56] Speaker 1: with Alzheimer's is microdosing on a regular basis.
[35:01] Speaker 2: There's certainly a lot of anecdotal reports about that, but
[35:08] Speaker 2: we need more than that. We need more than that
[35:10] Speaker 2: to see really what's going on. Something's going on. It's
[35:14] Speaker 2: kind of like the old Bob Dylan's line from one
[35:18] Speaker 2: of his songs, ballad, let's see, what's it called? I
[35:23] Speaker 2: can't remember, but the phrase is, you know something's happening here,
[35:27] Speaker 2: but you don't know what it is. I think we're
[35:31] Speaker 2: kind of at that stage. Of course, for treatment of anxiety,
[35:37] Speaker 2: post-traumatic stress disorder, treatment-resistant depression, anxiety around death, all those
[35:45] Speaker 2: kind of things, all the trials have been done, you know,
[35:49] Speaker 2: I mean, it's just how many trials need to be done, really?
[35:53] Speaker 1: This is having some positive effects for people that have
[35:58] Speaker 1: fear of dying as well?
[35:59] Speaker 2: Absolutely. You know, one kind of interesting aspect of this,
[36:07] Speaker 2: you know, which kind of goes into history, outside Athens, Greece,
[36:12] Speaker 2: there was a more or less a psychedelic retreat that
[36:18] Speaker 2: happened every year for over 2000 years, the illusion mysteries.
[36:25] Speaker 2: And so people would, Marcus Aurelius went, Aristotle went, Plato went,
[36:33] Speaker 2: everybody went. You'd only go once in your life. And
[36:37] Speaker 2: there would be men could go, women could go, servants
[36:41] Speaker 2: could go, slaves could go, purely democratic process. And you
[36:46] Speaker 2: would enter this kind of underground area and drink a
[36:50] Speaker 2: beverage called Kaikian. And there's been a lot of debate
[36:54] Speaker 2: of what that Kaikian was. I believe it was a
[36:58] Speaker 2: psychedelic compound. A lot of people do also. But people
[37:02] Speaker 2: would come out of that experience and they had lost
[37:05] Speaker 2: their fear of death. And that's what they would often say.
[37:09] Speaker 2: You know, they'd been through a, death and rebirth in
[37:14] Speaker 2: terms of consciousness, and they no longer fear death. So,
[37:18] Speaker 2: you know, just to have that anxiety removed, experience, lack
[37:25] Speaker 2: of a better term, cosmic consciousness, a oneness, a connection
[37:29] Speaker 2: to everything, something bigger than our little egos that we
[37:33] Speaker 2: developed in the capitalistic culture of America.
[37:37] Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about how seniors specifically should
[37:43] Speaker 1: be dosing, should evaluate the way that they're going to proceed,
[37:49] Speaker 1: any medical conditions, things like that.
[37:51] Speaker 2: Sure, sure. You know, for a long time, we've had
[37:56] Speaker 2: the phrase set and setting. Yeah. And that was expanded
[38:01] Speaker 2: to source, set and setting. And now it's screening, source,
[38:06] Speaker 2: set and setting and screenings. is kind of to make
[38:13] Speaker 2: sure that folks that obviously probably should not take these
[38:18] Speaker 2: compounds are warned or screened out. If you're bipolar, if
[38:25] Speaker 2: there's a history of schizophrenia in your family, if you
[38:29] Speaker 2: have bad heart disease, if you're on many different medications
[38:36] Speaker 2: that might interfere or contraindicate, things like that. And so
[38:45] Speaker 2: it's all about harm reduction. And the source is what
[38:49] Speaker 2: the actual medication is or sacrament, however one chooses to
[38:54] Speaker 2: approach it. And that can be, I like the phrase,
[39:01] Speaker 2: start slow, start low and go slow. which means if
[39:06] Speaker 2: you're going to go to a retreat or a therapist,
[39:09] Speaker 2: you start at a very low dose, and then maybe
[39:12] Speaker 2: after an hour, increase that dose, but you know what
[39:14] Speaker 2: you're taking, and you can kind of be eased into it.
[39:21] Speaker 2: It's important in terms of the set. That's what you
[39:27] Speaker 2: bring to the experience, your culture. uh uh probably not
[39:32] Speaker 2: a good idea if you've just been fired from your
[39:34] Speaker 2: job or if your spouse has died the night before
[39:36] Speaker 2: that you go into a full-blown psychedelic experience a lot
[39:40] Speaker 2: of people judge for themselves about that but it's better
[39:43] Speaker 2: to do it when you're maybe looking for specific guidance
[39:47] Speaker 2: or just to have fun, but there's no overwhelming crisis
[39:51] Speaker 2: going on in your family. And then having, whether it's
[39:58] Speaker 2: a facilitator or a sitter or a retreat leader who
[40:02] Speaker 2: is very familiar with these states of consciousness and can
[40:05] Speaker 2: provide whatever support is needed, which can be anything from
[40:09] Speaker 2: a calming voice to a glass of water, to who
[40:15] Speaker 2: knows what, but just create that space, whether it's with music,
[40:18] Speaker 2: but blankets, comfort. So I think those four things are
[40:23] Speaker 2: kind of the hallmark of how to approach in a
[40:28] Speaker 2: positive way, much different than what happened in the 1960s,
[40:33] Speaker 2: where none of that was considered by most people.
[40:37] Speaker 1: Early, you mentioned shady providers, quote-unquote shamans that may not
[40:42] Speaker 1: be what they say they are. How would you suggest
[40:46] Speaker 1: going about trying to find a good provider for this?
[40:50] Speaker 2: You know, that's such a big thing now because there
[40:56] Speaker 2: is quite a bit of money that can be made
[40:58] Speaker 2: in underground retreats. We're seeing a rise of psychedelic entrepreneurs.
[41:05] Speaker 2: We see folks call themselves shamans, you know, a shaman.
[41:10] Speaker 2: is part of an indigenous sense, is part of a legacy.
[41:14] Speaker 2: They're really born into it. They start, they're being trained
[41:17] Speaker 2: at the age of seven or eight, and they're part
[41:20] Speaker 2: of an intact community. And so I understand that a
[41:27] Speaker 2: lot of people's heart could be the right place, but
[41:29] Speaker 2: just because you have had a very positive psychedelic experience
[41:35] Speaker 2: doesn't mean that even though you want everybody else in
[41:39] Speaker 2: the world to take psychedelics, that you are competent to
[41:44] Speaker 2: help guide somebody or hold space for somebody in a
[41:48] Speaker 2: safe way. So I see a lot of that out there.
[41:52] Speaker 2: And there's such a differential in power dynamics. People who
[42:00] Speaker 2: are on psychedelics can be in an extremely vulnerable space.
[42:07] Speaker 2: where they can be misled, they can be manipulated. And
[42:13] Speaker 2: so there can be a power dynamic that occurs that
[42:16] Speaker 2: if the person who maybe is providing the medication and
[42:23] Speaker 2: sacrament and keeping on things, they start being seen as
[42:28] Speaker 2: somebody who has some higher knowledge. And their ego allows
[42:33] Speaker 2: them to kind of embrace that, that you know, they're
[42:36] Speaker 2: the Pied Piper. So that is certainly out there. Until
[42:46] Speaker 2: we get affordable legal access, that's going to be, that's
[42:51] Speaker 2: going to continue to be an issue. You know, I
[42:54] Speaker 2: was talking, Chris, to a guy in Australia last week.
[42:58] Speaker 2: Australia legalized psilocybin and MDMA for medical use three years ago.
[43:05] Speaker 2: In three years, less than 200 people have been through
[43:09] Speaker 2: that process. At the same time, Oregon has done over
[43:13] Speaker 2: about three years, over 20,000 sessions. I don't know how
[43:17] Speaker 2: many individual people, 20,000 sessions. Just because you legalize it
[43:24] Speaker 2: in Australia, you have to have a specific diagnosis and
[43:29] Speaker 2: You get it from a psychiatrist. That psychiatrist has to
[43:33] Speaker 2: fill out paperwork, follow up with it. The whole process
[43:38] Speaker 2: averages about $ 15, 000. So it's not surprising that there is
[43:44] Speaker 2: obviously a very strong underground because who could afford less
[43:49] Speaker 2: than 200 people have been through it in three years
[43:51] Speaker 2: in the entire country.
[43:51] Speaker 1: That's crazy.
[43:53] Speaker 2: So 2027 to me is going to be fascinating to watch.
[43:59] Speaker 2: It looks like the above ground rollout and how they're
[44:02] Speaker 2: going to scale that. You know, you go to a
[44:05] Speaker 2: provider now and, you know, you might get 15 minutes
[44:09] Speaker 2: or 20 minutes. Yeah. Or you see a therapist or psychiatrist,
[44:13] Speaker 2: it might be an hour. But for these things that
[44:17] Speaker 2: take four, six, seven hours, how's that going to be done? Colorado,
[44:26] Speaker 2: Oregon was first. statewide. And the other thing, Oregon's, I
[44:31] Speaker 2: think what they call the Natural Medicines Bill or Act
[44:34] Speaker 2: or something like that, took a lot that was learned
[44:39] Speaker 2: from Oregon and took the next step. Still some problems
[44:43] Speaker 2: I understand there. I guess New Mexico maybe is going
[44:48] Speaker 2: to be next. And so we see what they roll
[44:50] Speaker 2: out on the state level.
[44:52] Speaker 1: It's very interesting to see how quickly things are moving
[44:56] Speaker 1: along with this. Let's talk a little bit more about dosing,
[45:00] Speaker 1: specifically with psilocybin. Let's start there, because you said this
[45:04] Speaker 1: is probably the easiest for folks to start with. How
[45:09] Speaker 1: would you recommend people deciding whether they want to go
[45:12] Speaker 1: macro or micro dosing?
[45:15] Speaker 2: Yeah, there's that phrase, heroic dose, which who even knows
[45:22] Speaker 2: what that means? I guess it means a lot. I
[45:24] Speaker 2: don't know. But as you well know, with your experience
[45:28] Speaker 2: with mushrooms, the potency varies from strain to strain, from
[45:34] Speaker 2: flush to flush. So just because they say, wow, I
[45:38] Speaker 2: took five grams of dried mushrooms, that really doesn't mean much.
[45:43] Speaker 2: Because some strains are 10 times or more potent than others.
[45:48] Speaker 2: I'll let you kind of weigh in on that. And
[45:52] Speaker 2: so during clinical trials, 25 milligrams of psilocybin is standard dosing,
[46:01] Speaker 2: what they give to people. How many grams of mushrooms
[46:04] Speaker 2: that is, it depends. There's a great lab in Colorado
[46:12] Speaker 2: called Treptomics, and they have done some of the most
[46:17] Speaker 2: advanced research on psilocybin, including Uh, you know, uh, some folks, uh,
[46:25] Speaker 2: they'll do what they call the, uh, uh, lemon tech,
[46:29] Speaker 2: ground up mushrooms.
[46:31] Speaker 1: My wife does that.
[46:32] Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, triptomics, uh, and you know, their website and
[46:36] Speaker 2: see the research they've done. Orange juice works much better. Really? Interesting.
[46:42] Speaker 2: Much more effective. Triptomics.com. Go there. They've got a lot
[46:46] Speaker 2: of research. It's fascinating. The research they've done as well as, uh,
[46:52] Speaker 2: Of course, psilocybin breaks down the body into psilocin. And
[46:57] Speaker 2: so what they've also found is, you know, the best
[47:01] Speaker 2: way to store mushrooms long-term, things like that. So a
[47:06] Speaker 2: lot of great work being done kind of on the
[47:09] Speaker 2: science side there, tryptomics and Rose Hill Labs. I think
[47:13] Speaker 2: they're out in California. I'm not sure where they are.
[47:15] Speaker 2: But those folks are figuring things out. Yeah, go there
[47:18] Speaker 2: and check out the orange juice deck. Kind of fascinating.
[47:23] Speaker 2: And so, you know, new strains of mushrooms are being
[47:27] Speaker 2: discovered all the time and hybrid things being, you know,
[47:32] Speaker 2: I'm not sure how you cross mushrooms when it's kind
[47:35] Speaker 2: of a spore based thing. And it was amazing how
[47:39] Speaker 2: that the technology and knowledge to grow at home, you know,
[47:45] Speaker 2: that was Terrence and Dennis McKenna. They wrote the book
[47:49] Speaker 2: on it. They figured out how to do it. They
[47:51] Speaker 2: wrote the book. And suddenly people all over the country
[47:55] Speaker 2: could do it. And now, for those who want to
[48:00] Speaker 2: grow at home, it couldn't be much simpler. It's easier
[48:04] Speaker 2: than growing tomatoes.
[48:06] Speaker 1: Do you think that there are some issues that may
[48:09] Speaker 1: be more appropriate for ayahuasca or ibogaine, the stronger ones?
[48:16] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think for somebody... If I knew somebody who
[48:22] Speaker 2: was struggling with opioid addiction and had failed rehab a
[48:26] Speaker 2: few times, Ibogaine, I think, should be considered as a
[48:33] Speaker 2: path forward. Now, of course, Ibogaine being underground, I'm a
[48:40] Speaker 2: little concerned about that because Ibogaine is a battleship. And
[48:49] Speaker 2: it's long and it's a very arduous thing to go through.
[48:55] Speaker 2: And the benefits probably, you know, balance that out, obviously.
[49:03] Speaker 2: And I think that Colorado, I don't know if they
[49:06] Speaker 2: finalized it, but I think there's going to be above
[49:11] Speaker 2: ground legal apple game. I know there's a thing of...
[49:18] Speaker 2: reciprocity in that kind of the colonial perspective, we're just
[49:24] Speaker 2: gonna go to Africa or wherever and just rip off
[49:28] Speaker 2: everything we can and bring it back here and make money.
[49:31] Speaker 2: And so whoever is in charge of how this is
[49:36] Speaker 2: rolled out in Colorado, I know they're considering how to
[49:40] Speaker 2: do import Ibogaine in a way that is not totally extractive.
[49:49] Speaker 1: Earlier, we were talking a bit about DMT. I'm curious
[49:53] Speaker 1: about when people experience what's called a breakthrough. I've only
[49:58] Speaker 1: tried DMT once. I didn't experience the breakthrough. But what
[50:02] Speaker 1: I'm wondering is if the most profound healing effect And
[50:06] Speaker 1: beneficial experiences occur after that breakthrough stage.
[50:12] Speaker 2: I don't know, but I certainly have talked to a
[50:15] Speaker 2: lot of people and heard from a lot of people.
[50:17] Speaker 2: They didn't achieve that breakthrough. But I think one has,
[50:28] Speaker 2: you know, pretty pure DMT with enough of it. I
[50:32] Speaker 2: don't think the breakthrough can be avoided. Yeah. I could
[50:38] Speaker 2: be wrong on that. And, you know, what's kind of
[50:45] Speaker 2: fascinating is a lot of these Ibogaine clinics, especially in Mexico,
[50:53] Speaker 2: will help people do Ibogaine for a few days. Then
[50:57] Speaker 2: before they leave, they hit them with DMT pipe. I'm
[51:01] Speaker 2: not a big fan of stacking medicines like that. Right.
[51:05] Speaker 2: You know, I'm not sure about that. But, you know,
[51:08] Speaker 2: one step beyond the DMT is 5-MeO, which is a
[51:14] Speaker 2: very similar compound. We've certainly heard about it because of
[51:18] Speaker 2: the Sonoran toad, Sonoran desert toad, which where with DMT
[51:27] Speaker 2: is a breakthrough into this compound. The state of consciousness
[51:34] Speaker 2: where there's entities, there's knowledge being imparted. And you come
[51:42] Speaker 2: back and it feels realer than real, many reports. The
[51:46] Speaker 2: five MEO, there's none of that. It's just a blast
[51:50] Speaker 2: into the white light. Wow. And a lot of people
[51:55] Speaker 2: have felt that was very healing. Chris, I was in
[51:59] Speaker 2: Scotland a couple of months ago. talking with some crones
[52:04] Speaker 2: over there who are in the Scottish Psychedelic Research Group.
[52:09] Speaker 2: And they have a real concern because, you know, when
[52:14] Speaker 2: you were young, when I was young, you know, teenagers
[52:17] Speaker 2: were running around with a bag of weed, smoking weed. Yeah.
[52:21] Speaker 2: But it's so easy to get a vape with DMT
[52:26] Speaker 2: in it. Mm-hmm. And then teenagers run around hitting the
[52:30] Speaker 2: DMT pipe throughout the day or in between classes. And
[52:34] Speaker 2: I got to think, I'm not, you know, these are
[52:39] Speaker 2: such powerful chemicals. Yeah. That, you know, there's concern there.
[52:45] Speaker 2: And it doesn't seem to be much controlled in this
[52:48] Speaker 2: country anymore. I mean, you can go online and buy anything,
[52:51] Speaker 2: not even in the dark web, just above board. So.
[52:56] Speaker 2: It seems like the government's kind of looking the other
[52:58] Speaker 2: way now, both at the state and federal level. I
[53:01] Speaker 2: haven't heard of a psychedelic retreat being busted in years.
[53:06] Speaker 1: It's a double-edged sword. Like you said, you have to
[53:08] Speaker 1: watch out for this. Young children are getting their hands
[53:12] Speaker 1: on this. I've heard of instances where a mom and
[53:15] Speaker 1: dad will be growing mushrooms and their kid is curious
[53:19] Speaker 1: and gets into their mushrooms. But I want to get
[53:21] Speaker 1: into the metaphysical, spiritual possibilities first. Earlier we mentioned contact
[53:27] Speaker 1: with entities. Through my experiences, there was such a profound
[53:33] Speaker 1: almost knowing that I was accessing spiritual realms. There was
[53:39] Speaker 1: something happening on a much larger scale than I could comprehend,
[53:44] Speaker 1: and it was like a connection to what lies beyond
[53:48] Speaker 1: our perception that's always there that we can't normally access,
[53:52] Speaker 1: but it opens a door to the spirit realm. Would
[53:55] Speaker 1: you agree?
[53:57] Speaker 2: Well, I agree totally. Our realities are formed by our
[54:04] Speaker 2: five senses. I guess we have five senses. And so
[54:07] Speaker 2: we know that dogs, you know, can hear things that
[54:11] Speaker 2: we can't hear. We know that bats can locate things
[54:20] Speaker 2: by sound and, you know, we can't locate. And so...
[54:25] Speaker 2: So our experience of reality is really a hunch almost,
[54:31] Speaker 2: a hunch based upon what's coming in from our senses.
[54:37] Speaker 2: And so in a psychedelic experience, the frequency of whether
[54:48] Speaker 2: it's light or sound or aspects of where our mind
[54:55] Speaker 2: goes is totally different than ordinary reality, I guess, for
[55:01] Speaker 2: lack of a better term. Yeah, and that's one of
[55:05] Speaker 2: the things that is interesting about the medicalization of psychedelics
[55:11] Speaker 2: is when, you know, insurance companies are not going to
[55:17] Speaker 2: pay for somebody to have a spiritual experience. And so
[55:21] Speaker 2: that's why they're so focused on, well, you've got to
[55:24] Speaker 2: have a diagnosis. You've got to have some disease state,
[55:27] Speaker 2: personality disorder, where you can have those. And so that
[55:31] Speaker 2: consciousness expansion, spiritual path, you know, that's going to certainly
[55:40] Speaker 2: continue in the underground. It's kind of fascinating how in
[55:43] Speaker 2: other cultures, in Mexico, psychedelics were used not in the
[55:56] Speaker 2: way they are here to achieve some state of consciousness
[56:00] Speaker 2: or expand consciousness. It was for things like to find
[56:05] Speaker 2: lost objects, to diagnose somebody's physical ailments, or to protect
[56:13] Speaker 2: yourself from a bad spell or something like that. And so,
[56:19] Speaker 2: Psychedelics in this country, in some way, we're so divorced
[56:24] Speaker 2: from the indigenous use of them, we're really inventing our
[56:28] Speaker 2: own culture around psychedelics, reflective of our society, how we live.
[56:36] Speaker 1: We are in a fascinating time. I'm very interested to
[56:40] Speaker 1: see where everything goes with this research and what's going
[56:44] Speaker 1: to be possible. Last few minutes, any final thoughts before
[56:47] Speaker 1: we close out? Also let people know about your website,
[56:51] Speaker 1: Silencia platform, and how to find the book.
[56:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, silencia.com, P-S-Y-L-E-N-C-I-A, silencia.com. My book is available. Elders at
[57:05] Speaker 2: the Threshold, Psychedelics for Seniors. You can get it on Amazon.
[57:10] Speaker 2: If you don't want to get it from Amazon, your
[57:13] Speaker 2: local bookstore can order it from you. to a book distributor.
[57:20] Speaker 2: Or if somebody just wants an electronic copy, get in
[57:28] Speaker 2: contact with me. I'll send you a PDF for no charge.
[57:30] Speaker 2: I'm just kind of trying to spread the word here, Chris,
[57:33] Speaker 2: trying to put it out there. And my final words,
[57:35] Speaker 2: especially for who the book's written for, people my age,
[57:40] Speaker 2: is it's never too late to learn to experience wonder
[57:47] Speaker 2: and to heal. That's what I'll leave you with.
[57:50] Speaker 1: That's a great note to close on. Jim, thank you
[57:52] Speaker 1: so much. Love to do this again in the future.
[57:55] Speaker 1: And until next time, everyone, have a wonderful evening. We'll
[57:59] Speaker 1: talk again tomorrow.
[58:00] Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Chris. Thank you.
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