# FKN Classics Double Feature! Steven Snider - Proj. Artichoke | Metaphysical Disney - Ryan Burns

An episode of [Forbidden Knowledge News](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1470192028), 8 Jul 2026, 2 h 11 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72875832/classicsdbehvew_sd_360p_medium_fr30_08072026.mp3

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## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Enjoy these back to back classic Forbidden Knowledge News episodes. Today,
[0:06] Speaker 1: I want to welcome back to the show. Steven Snyder,
[0:09] Speaker 1: also known as Recluse. He is author and longtime curator
[0:14] Speaker 1: of deviz up website, which is dedicated to parapolitics and
[0:19] Speaker 1: high weirdness in all their many forms. After nearly a
[0:23] Speaker 1: decade in the blogging racket, he's branched out into podcasts.
[0:27] Speaker 1: With Frank Zero of Zero Night, he co hosts a Farm,
[0:30] Speaker 1: a weekly podcast dedicated to parapolitics and synchrome mysticism. Steven,
[0:36] Speaker 1: welcome back. How you doing well?
[0:39] Speaker 2: Man? How are you doing today, sir?
[0:41] Speaker 1: I can't complain, man, doing very well. Looking forward to
[0:45] Speaker 1: our discussion. We're gonna be talking about your research into
[0:49] Speaker 1: what could have really been some of the true purposes
[0:52] Speaker 1: of Watergate and some of the extremely strange possible connections
[0:56] Speaker 1: between the events behind Watergate and even a group of
[1:00] Speaker 1: mysterious beings called the Nine. I love all of this stuff.
[1:04] Speaker 1: I can't wait to get into it, and I'm gonna
[1:06] Speaker 1: learn something today. I learned so much every time Y're on,
[1:09] Speaker 1: because I really don't know much about the Watergate scandal.
[1:12] Speaker 1: In many of the events surrounding the Nixon era, So
[1:15] Speaker 1: this is going to be great. Before we get into it, though,
[1:18] Speaker 1: remind the audience a little bit about yourself and your work.
[1:22] Speaker 3: Well, I've been doing this now for gosh, it's actually
[1:26] Speaker 3: closing in on fifteen years, like thirteen, I guess. Technically,
[1:29] Speaker 3: I was the longtime curator of the Visa Blog, which
[1:34] Speaker 3: Hitterbrigin he actually started as a paranormal investigation outfit, and
[1:39] Speaker 3: then from there I got into podcasting around twenty twenty
[1:43] Speaker 3: or so. And I've also written two books well when
[1:46] Speaker 3: I co write with Frank Zero Strange, Here's the parapolitical
[1:49] Speaker 3: post War Nazis Mercenaries have a Secret History, and then
[1:52] Speaker 3: the other one by myself Special Relationship. And I got
[1:55] Speaker 3: another one here that will hopefully be out by the fall,
[1:59] Speaker 3: definitely by the which is going to be really groovy.
[2:01] Speaker 3: It's actually going to cover some of these topics as well.
[2:04] Speaker 3: And more recently, I'm getting ready to do the Astrognosis
[2:09] Speaker 3: conference in the Chicago area this year. That's going to
[2:12] Speaker 3: be June twenty third, twenty fourth, and it's going to
[2:17] Speaker 3: be really really amazing. Chris Knowles is going to be
[2:20] Speaker 3: there from the Secret Sun Mitche Orwiz and Watergate is
[2:24] Speaker 3: actually a central part of my presentation for this the
[2:29] Speaker 3: presentation is just going to be absolutely nuts with just
[2:33] Speaker 3: some of the stuff on issues I'm going to raise
[2:35] Speaker 3: in it. So keep in mind, you know, when you
[2:37] Speaker 3: start seeing how crazy the material is I'm going to
[2:39] Speaker 3: bring to bear here for Watergate, and then kind of
[2:41] Speaker 3: put that in the broader context that this is just
[2:43] Speaker 3: a part of the presentation. It's it's going to be
[2:47] Speaker 3: pretty out there, let's just say that. But this is
[2:51] Speaker 3: this is great because there was a lot of really
[2:53] Speaker 3: interesting stuff about Watergate that I'm not going to be
[2:55] Speaker 3: able to get into the presentation too. So this is
[2:58] Speaker 3: maybe a bit of a you know, a bit of
[3:00] Speaker 3: a footnote to some of these other characters and hope
[3:04] Speaker 3: set the stage awesome.
[3:07] Speaker 1: Man, So where should we start with this? What are
[3:10] Speaker 1: we looking at when we're talking about Watergate? What is
[3:13] Speaker 1: the mainstream narrative versus some of the things you've found out?
[3:17] Speaker 3: Well, I mean, obviously, you know, it's been tossed around
[3:20] Speaker 3: a lot lately because they had what was the Showtime
[3:23] Speaker 3: or Stars series about it with Woody Harrelson. I believe
[3:27] Speaker 3: Daniel Ellsberg is currently dying from cancer of course he
[3:31] Speaker 3: was sort of implicated in this when the plumbers had
[3:34] Speaker 3: tried to Actually they did break into a psychiatrist office,
[3:39] Speaker 3: and I think there were even plans that dose him
[3:41] Speaker 3: with LSD or something like that. But anyways, so the
[3:45] Speaker 3: White House plumbers were set up by I believe creep
[3:49] Speaker 3: if I remember, collectively, the campaign to re elect the
[3:53] Speaker 3: president or something to that effect going into the nineteen
[3:56] Speaker 3: seventy two election, and the Nixon administration had been beset
[4:02] Speaker 3: by leaks up to this point. Hence the reason why
[4:06] Speaker 3: these guys were called plumbers. They were supposed to be
[4:08] Speaker 3: the ones going around cleaning up the leagues. So anyway,
[4:12] Speaker 3: Watergate as a big or was I should say, a
[4:14] Speaker 3: big office building in the DC area housed on one floor.
[4:18] Speaker 3: I think it was either the region or national headquarters
[4:21] Speaker 3: for the Democratic National Convention. So this is all kind
[4:25] Speaker 3: of going up into the election, and it was thought
[4:27] Speaker 3: that they were you know, the official narrative is that
[4:29] Speaker 3: they were going in there essentially to try to get
[4:31] Speaker 3: dirts and maybe some other stuff to help Nixon with
[4:34] Speaker 3: the election. But there's definitely some compelling circumstances that other
[4:40] Speaker 3: things were at play, and it's my very firm belief
[4:45] Speaker 3: that this was a deep political event that was driven
[4:49] Speaker 3: by the American security services primarily, and that they were
[4:56] Speaker 3: driven to this over Nixon's policy China. And this was
[5:02] Speaker 3: a big thing, especially in this whole era. And I
[5:05] Speaker 3: kind of need to give a little backdrop with this
[5:06] Speaker 3: with like the Cold War mindset, So like in the
[5:09] Speaker 3: aftermath of World War Two, you know, going into the
[5:11] Speaker 3: Cold War, we're trying to figure out how to deal
[5:14] Speaker 3: with the Soviet Union and international communism in general. So
[5:18] Speaker 3: the prevailing ideology in the national security state was one
[5:21] Speaker 3: of containment. Basically, We're going to try to hold the
[5:24] Speaker 3: Soviet Union and communism within its pre existing borders. And
[5:27] Speaker 3: then within the far right you had the whole push
[5:30] Speaker 3: for what was known as rollback, like now we're going
[5:32] Speaker 3: to take the war to these bastards and we're going
[5:34] Speaker 3: to keep driving them back until we totally cleanse the
[5:37] Speaker 3: earth of communism. So fast forward to the Vietnam era,
[5:43] Speaker 3: like around nineteen sixty six. The Council on Foreign Relations
[5:47] Speaker 3: had had a tremendous influence over the country up to
[5:49] Speaker 3: this point, obviously, but they became insanely divided over Vietnam.
[5:55] Speaker 3: In fact, there's even reports I've read here and there
[5:58] Speaker 3: that there was a fistfight at one point in one
[6:00] Speaker 3: of their meetings in New York and sixty eight over
[6:02] Speaker 3: the Vietnam debate. So anyway, you ended up with these
[6:06] Speaker 3: two sort of factions that were known as roughly the
[6:09] Speaker 3: Traders and the Prussians. The Traders with the business interests,
[6:12] Speaker 3: and their big guy was David Rockefeller backing them, and
[6:15] Speaker 3: he would go on to set up the Trilateral Commission
[6:18] Speaker 3: not too long after this, which you know, your Benozer's
[6:20] Speaker 3: read Big and bringing Jim Carter to power. And what
[6:25] Speaker 3: they were really hoping to do was pursue a foreign
[6:28] Speaker 3: policy known as did a taunt and that basically means
[6:32] Speaker 3: peaceful coexistence with some economic competition with the Soviet Union.
[6:38] Speaker 3: Even at this sort of point, they were increasingly seeing
[6:41] Speaker 3: the Global South as being more significant in a broader
[6:45] Speaker 3: geopolitical sense. They kind of wanted to build collaboration between
[6:49] Speaker 3: the United States, between the emerging European Union, the Soviet Union,
[6:53] Speaker 3: and China to kind of manage the resources of the
[6:55] Speaker 3: Global South, if he will. So you had the other hand,
[7:00] Speaker 3: the Prussians, who were just horrified by this whole notion
[7:03] Speaker 3: of de detent. A lot of them either left the
[7:06] Speaker 3: CFR or really discontinued a lot of their work for it,
[7:09] Speaker 3: and they would gradually drift into the Committee for Present
[7:12] Speaker 3: Danger and American Security Council and a lot of the
[7:14] Speaker 3: sort of right wing thing tanks and that type of stuff.
[7:17] Speaker 3: And this was, you know, also kind of around the
[7:19] Speaker 3: time you see stuff like the Heritage Foundation getting set
[7:22] Speaker 3: up and what have you. So all of this is
[7:25] Speaker 3: like playing out, and then suddenly you start hearing about
[7:30] Speaker 3: these mysterious negotiations that Nixon are more specifically Kissinger is
[7:35] Speaker 3: having with the Chinese over basically normalizing relations with them.
[7:42] Speaker 3: And this was a huge thing a because there was
[7:45] Speaker 3: this thing known as the China Lobby at the time
[7:47] Speaker 3: in the United States, which subsidized it's basically the Taiwan Lobby,
[7:52] Speaker 3: though we're being honest, and it heavily subsidized a lot
[7:55] Speaker 3: of the right wing in the United States. So they
[7:58] Speaker 3: were had always been fanatical about trying to take back
[8:01] Speaker 3: mainland China on behalf of Taiwan. And on top of that,
[8:05] Speaker 3: you have the whole thing with the military who saw
[8:06] Speaker 3: this as being extremely strategic and what have you, and
[8:10] Speaker 3: it was really for the political right, a major stab
[8:13] Speaker 3: in the back because you know, obviously they got trounced
[8:17] Speaker 3: in sixty four Gold War sixty eight, Nixon gets elected,
[8:20] Speaker 3: it's like, okay, we've got our boy in there finally,
[8:23] Speaker 3: and then he brings in Henry Kissinger to basically run
[8:26] Speaker 3: the foreign policy. And Kissinger was of course a total
[8:28] Speaker 3: stooge slash protege of Nelson Rockefeller. So the Rockefellers are
[8:33] Speaker 3: basically guiding US foreign policy almost uncontested throughout Nixon's administration,
[8:40] Speaker 3: going up through Ford and Jimmy Carter's. This was really
[8:43] Speaker 3: the apex of their influence, if you really want to
[8:46] Speaker 3: get down to it, which is why it's kind of
[8:48] Speaker 3: ironic that a lot of it happened during Nixon. So
[8:52] Speaker 3: Kissinger's going out here having these meetings with China and
[8:57] Speaker 3: nobody knows what they're discussing because they're very secretive. It's
[9:01] Speaker 3: only a handful of people going into this, but they
[9:03] Speaker 3: start getting win that he's thinking about normalizing relations, and
[9:08] Speaker 3: that really triggered a lot of people.
[9:10] Speaker 1: To put it mildly, Yeah, man, I could definitely see
[9:14] Speaker 1: that happening. So this is the main reason that we
[9:18] Speaker 1: have these operations targeting Nixon.
[9:21] Speaker 3: Yeah, because there were more than one, which I think
[9:23] Speaker 3: is something else that people tend to forget. And the
[9:26] Speaker 3: big one was the Morior Radford affair, which frankly should
[9:31] Speaker 3: probably be as big as Watergate, if not bigger, because
[9:34] Speaker 3: the implications that they're just staggering. So at the time,
[9:39] Speaker 3: the highest ranking uniform officer in the Navy was a
[9:42] Speaker 3: guy called Admiral Thomas Moore.
[9:45] Speaker 2: I can't remember.
[9:46] Speaker 3: I think his physical title would have been like the
[9:48] Speaker 3: Chief of Naval Operations or something like that.
[9:50] Speaker 2: I'm not entirely sure, but he's a really interesting guy.
[9:54] Speaker 3: He was the guy who set up Task Force one
[9:56] Speaker 3: fifty seven, which Edwin Wilson famously worked for. Was basically
[10:01] Speaker 3: a group that went around and set up front companies
[10:03] Speaker 3: for the Navy and the CIA to do a lot
[10:06] Speaker 3: of current operations, black ops and that kind of stuff
[10:09] Speaker 3: with Of course, Wilson was later arrested because he was
[10:12] Speaker 3: running guns to Libya and bringing mercenaries into training the
[10:15] Speaker 3: troops in nineteen eighty. He was part of that whole
[10:17] Speaker 3: kind of network with Theodore Shackley and Thomas Kleins that
[10:20] Speaker 3: eventually became the Enterprise but the Navy was playing a
[10:24] Speaker 3: big role in this through More too, and this was
[10:28] Speaker 3: hardly the only thing that Moore was involved in, so
[10:30] Speaker 3: he especially is a really arch China hawk. He was
[10:35] Speaker 3: also already really at odds with Nixon, if I remember
[10:39] Speaker 3: by the early seventies, because this is around the time
[10:42] Speaker 3: when the Israelis had destroyed that that ship during I
[10:48] Speaker 3: think it was the Seventh Day War or something like that.
[10:51] Speaker 3: So you know, navy ship got destroyed and the US
[10:54] Speaker 3: was basically like, oh, that's okay. So More was not
[10:57] Speaker 3: happy about that. But anyway, the whole thing with China
[11:01] Speaker 3: he started finding out was just too much.
[11:03] Speaker 1: So now you said Nixon was pretty much completely controlled
[11:07] Speaker 1: by Rockefellers at this point.
[11:09] Speaker 3: His foreign policy was I would say that the domestic
[11:13] Speaker 3: policy was probably like more his own, but definitely in
[11:16] Speaker 3: terms of like the foreign policy, because I mean, he
[11:19] Speaker 3: was more or less doing everything they wanted. You know,
[11:20] Speaker 3: the rock A firmers have been pushing for bringing troops
[11:23] Speaker 3: out of Vietnam, normalizing relations with the with the People's
[11:27] Speaker 3: Republic of China, trying to achieve detente with the Soviet Union,
[11:30] Speaker 3: all this other kind of stuff. So Mourrier sets up
[11:36] Speaker 3: effectively expiring that's being run by this ensign named Radford
[11:40] Speaker 3: and few other people. I think that the point man
[11:43] Speaker 3: in firm was like Admiral Wayland or something like that.
[11:46] Speaker 3: But essentially they had recruited one of Kissinger's aide who
[11:51] Speaker 3: was a Navy man who was going with him on
[11:54] Speaker 3: these secret negotiations with China. They were breaking into his
[11:59] Speaker 3: briefcase photo copying all of his classified documents and then
[12:03] Speaker 3: bringing it back to the Navy so that they knew
[12:05] Speaker 3: what was going on, and they were not happy. So
[12:10] Speaker 3: they started leaking some of this stuff to the press,
[12:14] Speaker 3: and specifically Jack Anderson, the really famous mud raker or muckraker.
[12:18] Speaker 3: Rather so Anderson's getting one of this stuff coming out
[12:22] Speaker 3: about Nixon. It was just absolutely outraging a lot of
[12:26] Speaker 3: the right wing in the country that he was looking
[12:28] Speaker 3: to normalize relationships with the PRC. So this was one
[12:32] Speaker 3: of the sort of this was happening around like seventy
[12:33] Speaker 3: seventy one, by the way, shortly before the plumbers really
[12:36] Speaker 3: got going, So this was sort of one of the
[12:38] Speaker 3: things that was seen as essential to creating them. But again,
[12:44] Speaker 3: you know the implications of this are really significant because
[12:49] Speaker 3: you effectively have the head of the Navy running aspir
[12:54] Speaker 3: ring targeting the president's primary foreign policy advisor to figure
[13:00] Speaker 3: out what his foreign policy is and then to try
[13:02] Speaker 3: to sabotage it a sitting US president. Okay, so, and
[13:08] Speaker 3: while a couple of the Navy guys got in trouble
[13:10] Speaker 3: for this, Mortar actually got bumped up and became the
[13:13] Speaker 3: chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. So it's like
[13:16] Speaker 3: they weren't even able to really do much the ringleader
[13:19] Speaker 3: of all of this, and.
[13:22] Speaker 1: They had so many different seeming like arguing factions that
[13:26] Speaker 1: had different ideas of where they wanted to go control wise,
[13:30] Speaker 1: it seems.
[13:31] Speaker 2: Yeah, no, absolutely.
[13:33] Speaker 3: And another interesting thing about more and whylands here at
[13:37] Speaker 3: Moirre whaland that I wanted to mention very quick they
[13:40] Speaker 3: had an ensign who had served under both of them
[13:44] Speaker 3: at one point, and that was a guy named Bob Woodward,
[13:48] Speaker 3: who was, along with Carl Bernstein, one of the two
[13:51] Speaker 3: famous journalists who exposed Watergate. Okay, the ones who wrote
[13:56] Speaker 3: All of the President or the ones that the movie
[13:58] Speaker 3: All the President's Men are about. So that's another thing
[14:02] Speaker 3: to keep in mind here. One of the two journalists
[14:06] Speaker 3: who was primarily responsible for breaking the Watergate story and
[14:09] Speaker 3: turning it into a national sensation was a former ensign
[14:14] Speaker 3: who had served under Moore and Wayland. And these were
[14:17] Speaker 3: guys who had already been leaking stuff to the press
[14:20] Speaker 3: I mean earlier with the Morier Radford affair and all
[14:23] Speaker 3: this other stuff. So a lot of plans that are
[14:26] Speaker 3: kind of playing out, like leading up to the Watergate
[14:29] Speaker 3: break in.
[14:31] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So where should we go next? What is
[14:34] Speaker 1: the Office of Security?
[14:37] Speaker 3: Okay, so the Office of Security is one of the
[14:40] Speaker 3: most interesting aspects of the CIA. It was essentially like
[14:44] Speaker 3: its pratorian guard. And like the common description you get
[14:48] Speaker 3: to the OS is it handles like security for CIA
[14:51] Speaker 3: installations and what have you, which is true. I mean
[14:54] Speaker 3: a lot of times, you know, guards and stuff like
[14:55] Speaker 3: that the Office of Security do. But another one of
[14:58] Speaker 3: their major functions is counter and tell leigence and also
[15:03] Speaker 3: basically vetting defectors people like that. They also do security
[15:06] Speaker 3: checks on people signing up for the CIA. Like one
[15:09] Speaker 3: of the things that they're really famous for the polygraph
[15:11] Speaker 3: tests that they give with the sodium penthenol and that.
[15:14] Speaker 2: Kind of stuff.
[15:15] Speaker 3: But there was a lot of other things that the
[15:18] Speaker 3: Office of Security did that.
[15:22] Speaker 1: Is this just like an offshoot of the CIA.
[15:25] Speaker 2: No, they were a part.
[15:26] Speaker 3: Of the CIA, okay, you know, I mean because obviously
[15:29] Speaker 3: they have the different director rights. I can't remember what
[15:31] Speaker 3: direct right the Office of Security was under, but it
[15:34] Speaker 3: acted really autonomously and it had a very different composition
[15:41] Speaker 3: from the Maitland CIA too. Almost all the OS guys
[15:44] Speaker 3: were like ex military, x FBI and what have you.
[15:48] Speaker 3: They didn't come from the sort of like stereotypical ivy
[15:51] Speaker 3: league background, you know, the scions of wealthy families that
[15:55] Speaker 3: we usually associate with CIA. And in point of fact,
[15:58] Speaker 3: they actually really despise the parts of CIA as well.
[16:02] Speaker 3: There were a lot of ongoing feuds with them. But anyway,
[16:08] Speaker 3: their whole purpose was basically as cleaners for the CIA.
[16:13] Speaker 3: And when I say that, I mean that if somebody
[16:16] Speaker 3: was being blackmailed or was you know, funneling out the
[16:22] Speaker 3: classified documents or something else like that, they would potentially
[16:26] Speaker 3: embarrass the CIA. The Office of Security is who cleaned
[16:29] Speaker 3: up these messes for them, and that meant that they
[16:33] Speaker 3: got involved in a lot of illicit activity, a lot
[16:36] Speaker 3: of black black bag jobs, break ins and stuff like that.
[16:40] Speaker 3: But also they were really involved in the beginning of
[16:43] Speaker 3: CIA with assassination attempts one of the early hits.
[16:47] Speaker 1: So that's probably more like criminal types that they were
[16:50] Speaker 1: using for these operations.
[16:52] Speaker 3: Yes, because again, as I just said, a lot of
[16:54] Speaker 3: the OS guys were x FBI, so they knew a
[16:58] Speaker 3: lot of mafia p and in point of fact two,
[17:02] Speaker 3: when they were trying to set up like the mafia
[17:04] Speaker 3: to try to assassinate Castro in the early sixties, it
[17:07] Speaker 3: was actually the OS that was the liaisons for that.
[17:10] Speaker 3: You know, they were the guys because they had all
[17:12] Speaker 3: the connections to the mobs, so you know, and this
[17:16] Speaker 3: kind of goes back to a lot of the rumblings
[17:19] Speaker 3: that I've heard over the years about how the CIA
[17:21] Speaker 3: does assassination. So if you're going to assassinate somebody, typically
[17:28] Speaker 3: in a foreign country, it would be carried out by
[17:31] Speaker 3: the Special Activities Division SAD, which is a cute name
[17:35] Speaker 3: for that, which is under the director right of plans,
[17:39] Speaker 3: and most of the time they would use like X.
[17:42] Speaker 3: Well they wouldn't be X, but I mean basically green
[17:44] Speaker 3: berets that had retired for the time, maybe some Marines
[17:47] Speaker 3: in this era that.
[17:48] Speaker 2: Type of stuff.
[17:50] Speaker 3: But if you wanted to kill somebody domestically. A lot
[17:54] Speaker 3: of times you did it with the Office of Security,
[17:58] Speaker 3: and they would contract this stuff out to the mafia.
[18:02] Speaker 3: It's all really hush hush under the table, but you know,
[18:05] Speaker 3: this is something I really want to illustrate. With the
[18:07] Speaker 3: Office of Security, they were an action arm and they
[18:10] Speaker 3: did a lot of you know, very dark stuff on
[18:13] Speaker 3: the side, in addition to like the more nominal functions
[18:17] Speaker 3: we hear about, like guarding you.
[18:18] Speaker 2: Know, office buildings and things like that.
[18:21] Speaker 3: Right, so and so, yeah, well let me get into
[18:26] Speaker 3: like the most mysterious part of the Office of Security.
[18:29] Speaker 3: This was most known as the Security Research Service, and
[18:33] Speaker 3: it was headed for a long time by a guy
[18:36] Speaker 3: called General Paul Gainer, which is quite ironic because one
[18:41] Speaker 3: of his major functions was compiling sexual blackmail, and he
[18:47] Speaker 3: really was big into plant compiling blackmail on gay men.
[18:52] Speaker 3: In fact, he had an entire five a series of
[18:57] Speaker 3: folders on this which were affects referred to as the
[19:01] Speaker 3: fag Boulders. That was the CIA's name for them, not mine,
[19:05] Speaker 3: And in at least one case, there's pretty compelling evidence
[19:09] Speaker 3: that he used this material to induce somebody into committing suicide.
[19:14] Speaker 3: There's been some a lot of evidence that that was
[19:17] Speaker 3: just the tip of the iceberg with this too. And
[19:20] Speaker 3: you know, again you hear a lot about like say
[19:22] Speaker 3: the TSS running safe houses. Well, years before mk Ultra
[19:27] Speaker 3: even started, the OS already was running safe houses and
[19:31] Speaker 3: they continued to do so, and by the time of
[19:33] Speaker 3: Watergate they had a very elaborate network with them across
[19:36] Speaker 3: the country.
[19:37] Speaker 1: Now, what were the purpose of these safe houses?
[19:39] Speaker 3: Well, again, you know, in theory, this was like if somebody,
[19:43] Speaker 3: you know, I mean a defector was being targeted domestically
[19:46] Speaker 3: by like an assassin, he could go here and hide
[19:49] Speaker 3: or if you needed to, Like that was at least
[19:51] Speaker 3: the nominal reason given for them. Yeah, it seems like
[19:55] Speaker 3: a lot of these safe houses were actually being used
[19:58] Speaker 3: to conduct prostitution stings and should basically to compile blackmail
[20:03] Speaker 3: on is something I'll get into here with Watergate in
[20:06] Speaker 3: a second. But there's another big thing though about the SRS,
[20:10] Speaker 3: the Security Research Service, that I need to get into,
[20:13] Speaker 3: and that was the fact that they were the component
[20:16] Speaker 3: that manage project Arted show for almost twenty years. And okay,
[20:23] Speaker 3: the first so the first thing with arted choke, it
[20:26] Speaker 3: was not a part of mk Ultra. It was never
[20:28] Speaker 3: rolled into mk Ultra, and it continued concurrently when mk
[20:32] Speaker 3: Ultra was running and kind of getting into some of
[20:36] Speaker 3: the politics with this too. It's really interesting because.
[20:38] Speaker 1: Now before you do just was im it was artichoke,
[20:44] Speaker 1: a project to see if they could create assassins with
[20:49] Speaker 1: different substances like LSD. Is this what this was all about?
[20:53] Speaker 2: Yeah, very much.
[20:54] Speaker 3: So, like part of it was developing quote unquote and
[20:57] Speaker 3: what we would think of now is enhanced terrigation. But
[21:00] Speaker 3: the other component was creating quote unquote super soldiers for
[21:05] Speaker 3: lack of.
[21:05] Speaker 2: A better term.
[21:06] Speaker 3: Okay, so I'll get into that here in a second.
[21:08] Speaker 3: But like in terms of the politics that it's kind
[21:10] Speaker 3: of interesting real quick because mk Ultra had a lot
[21:15] Speaker 3: of support.
[21:15] Speaker 2: From the Rockefeller family.
[21:17] Speaker 3: They were giving a lot of money to fund some
[21:21] Speaker 3: of these operations through their charitable services, and it went
[21:24] Speaker 3: through the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology and
[21:28] Speaker 3: obviously when it got set up this is around the
[21:30] Speaker 3: same time i e. The Mid fifties when Nelson Rockefellers
[21:33] Speaker 3: like on the Operations Coordinating Board and the Eisenhower White House,
[21:37] Speaker 3: which is what basically managed Alcavert operations and then simultaneously
[21:42] Speaker 3: you have Arted show going and Arted show And this
[21:47] Speaker 3: is another big thing about it. Nobody gets was a
[21:50] Speaker 3: joint military and CIA program, which is another reason why
[21:55] Speaker 3: it's interesting you have all these military guys in the
[21:58] Speaker 3: Office of Security and the military. The stuff that it
[22:04] Speaker 3: was doing with what we would think of now is
[22:05] Speaker 3: like mind control, behavior modification. It was vastly beyond what
[22:11] Speaker 3: the CIA was doing because I mean they had, you know,
[22:15] Speaker 3: besides their paws, an art a choke, you had a
[22:17] Speaker 3: lot of these other methods that nobody talks about because
[22:20] Speaker 3: it doesn't have the Wu wu factor of LSD and whatnot.
[22:24] Speaker 3: But they've actually kind of proven to be much more effective,
[22:28] Speaker 3: maybe in the long run. But what I'm getting at
[22:31] Speaker 3: with this is that the military invested a fortune in
[22:36] Speaker 3: the social sciences in the post war years, and especially
[22:39] Speaker 3: behavioral science.
[22:41] Speaker 2: And what have you.
[22:42] Speaker 3: They also put a lot up obviously everybody knows, like
[22:44] Speaker 3: building up the ARPA neet which became the Internet. So
[22:48] Speaker 3: official explanation for that is for continuity of government. It
[22:51] Speaker 3: was going to help the military communicate with each other
[22:53] Speaker 3: they were capacitated. But a lot of stuff has come
[22:56] Speaker 3: out to indicate that it was being used also for
[22:59] Speaker 3: counterinserchency operations. It would basically be a way to mind
[23:03] Speaker 3: data and then do predictive modelings to see how individuals
[23:07] Speaker 3: and you know, militaries, paramilitaries and all this other kind
[23:11] Speaker 3: of stuff would react. And the military was running a
[23:15] Speaker 3: ton of projects along these lines. One was Project Cambridge,
[23:20] Speaker 3: another one was Project Camelot, that was Project ComCom, And
[23:23] Speaker 3: I mean a lot of this stuff really laid the
[23:26] Speaker 3: foundation for something like Cambridge Analytic or the you know,
[23:31] Speaker 3: similar operations that Google was doing where basically, you can,
[23:35] Speaker 3: you know, get somebody's data from Facebook, you can then
[23:38] Speaker 3: do a really in depth personality profile on them and
[23:41] Speaker 3: use that to nebulate them. And this is stuff the
[23:45] Speaker 3: military was heavily researching all the way back in the
[23:49] Speaker 3: fifties and sixties. I mean I said, they had just
[23:52] Speaker 3: multiple projects running with this. And another thing too was
[23:56] Speaker 3: all the stuff with like the ultra extreme low frequency
[24:00] Speaker 3: waves and microwaves and stuff like that which have been
[24:03] Speaker 3: linked to you know, non lethal weapons quote unquote or
[24:06] Speaker 3: psychotronic weapons like the Navy alone by nineteen seventy five
[24:12] Speaker 3: had spent one hundred and twenty five million dollars researching
[24:15] Speaker 3: ELF waves, extremely low frequency waves. That's over half a
[24:19] Speaker 3: billion dollars in modern terms. And that's just you know,
[24:21] Speaker 3: one branch of the service, one kind of potential non
[24:25] Speaker 3: lethal weapons. So they're sponsoring all kinds of in saying
[24:29] Speaker 3: stuff like this. I mean during the nineties something like
[24:33] Speaker 3: or during the fifties, something like ninety percent of the
[24:36] Speaker 3: government funding for academic research came from the military, and
[24:42] Speaker 3: specifically a lot of it came from the Office of
[24:44] Speaker 3: Naval Research. The Navy was just really like head and
[24:48] Speaker 3: shoulders above anybody else in this stuff. And that's why
[24:52] Speaker 3: it's kind of interesting that Arctich Show basically had its
[24:55] Speaker 3: origins in the Navy and the operations that they were doing,
[25:00] Speaker 3: and specifically, the one that's really significant for this was
[25:04] Speaker 3: Project Pelican. Pelican I think is what Qubric was trying
[25:09] Speaker 3: to expose and Clockwork Orange. Essentially, they would take people,
[25:15] Speaker 3: they would strap them in shares, they would drug them,
[25:17] Speaker 3: and they would start subjecting them to these videos of
[25:21] Speaker 3: extreme violence and their eyes were clamped open, like the
[25:23] Speaker 3: whole nine yards while they were subjected to this, and
[25:28] Speaker 3: oh shit, it was on top of that they were
[25:31] Speaker 3: basically recruiting people. See, the reason they were given for
[25:34] Speaker 3: this was they were trying to make them more able
[25:36] Speaker 3: to kill people, you know, essentially by desensitizing them to violence.
[25:40] Speaker 3: But the thing is, the people for Pelican who were
[25:43] Speaker 3: recruited for this, they almost all came out of military
[25:46] Speaker 3: prisons or they were already involved in you know, combat operations. Basically,
[25:51] Speaker 3: they were people who had already shown a ability to
[25:53] Speaker 3: you know, resort to violence. So it doesn't even really
[25:58] Speaker 3: make sense. And this was essentially what was being used
[26:01] Speaker 3: to train a lot of assassins and special operations forces.
[26:05] Speaker 3: I mean, I think at this point by the time
[26:07] Speaker 3: you know, water gigers around, it would have been like
[26:09] Speaker 3: the Navy seals who were probably getting subjected to a
[26:11] Speaker 3: lot of this type of stuff.
[26:13] Speaker 1: But that is super terrifying, especially in when you look
[26:17] Speaker 1: at the events that are occurring today with social media
[26:22] Speaker 1: school shooters. Yeah, these aspects of pharmaceuticals being combined with
[26:28] Speaker 1: some of these psychological operations, it's pretty crazy.
[26:32] Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And I mean the Navy was just huge
[26:36] Speaker 3: and building up all of this stuff because I mean, yeah,
[26:39] Speaker 3: they were really at the forefront of looking for this
[26:41] Speaker 3: you know, ability to kind of create these program killers
[26:44] Speaker 3: or at least to people who could kill without any
[26:46] Speaker 3: kind of moral code. And this was something that as
[26:50] Speaker 3: time went on, I mean it became an even bigger obsession.
[26:53] Speaker 3: I mean the Air Force, for instance, in Korea started
[26:55] Speaker 3: running Project Repair. This is another one where they were,
[26:58] Speaker 3: you know, interviewing the defectors and oh, you know, the
[27:02] Speaker 3: people who are supposedly brainwashed. This is actually where we
[27:05] Speaker 3: ended up getting was it Biderman's Chart of Coorsion, which
[27:09] Speaker 3: on the one hand is used by a lot of
[27:12] Speaker 3: quote unquote anti cult activist deprogrammed people, but on the
[27:16] Speaker 3: other hand is used by a lot of coldest to
[27:19] Speaker 3: get their members in line, and also served as the
[27:23] Speaker 3: basis for the quote unquote enhanced interrogation methods at Wantanamo
[27:28] Speaker 3: Obey in a lot of these other places these you know,
[27:30] Speaker 3: the interrogators actually had like copies of Biderman's Chart of Coorsion,
[27:33] Speaker 3: you know, like on the.
[27:34] Speaker 2: Walls and stuff while they're going around.
[27:36] Speaker 3: So it's just people just do not get all the
[27:40] Speaker 3: stuff that the military was involved in this. It was
[27:43] Speaker 3: just freaking staggering. I mean it really is.
[27:47] Speaker 1: Damn Well, where do we go from here? You have
[27:50] Speaker 1: James McCord, Who is this and how is he involved?
[27:54] Speaker 3: McCord is a really interesting guy. So I mean a
[27:57] Speaker 3: lot of people know him as being one of the plumbers,
[27:59] Speaker 3: but he had done a lot of other stuff that
[28:03] Speaker 3: was very compelling before then, So he was a CIA
[28:07] Speaker 3: guy and I think actually before that he had.
[28:09] Speaker 2: Been in the FBI.
[28:11] Speaker 3: So anyway, he ends up in the Office of Security.
[28:14] Speaker 3: He works directly with Gainer and with Morris Allen, who
[28:17] Speaker 3: was the guy who was tasked with running like the
[28:19] Speaker 3: day to day functions with art a choke. I haven't
[28:22] Speaker 3: been able to like definitively confirm if he was, you know,
[28:27] Speaker 3: if he was involved actively in arted choke, but I
[28:29] Speaker 3: mean he almost surely would have been aware of it
[28:32] Speaker 3: based on some of the stuff I'll get into here
[28:34] Speaker 3: in a second. But another thing about McCord that's really
[28:37] Speaker 3: interesting that nobody talks about is he was one of
[28:40] Speaker 3: the OS guys that was dispatched by Sheffield Edwards to
[28:45] Speaker 3: deal with the Frank Olsen stuff. You know again, you know,
[28:48] Speaker 3: he Frank Olsen is dose with LSD. He jumps through
[28:51] Speaker 3: a window from that high rise, you know, and I
[28:55] Speaker 3: can't remember it's New York or DC off the top
[28:57] Speaker 3: of my head, but anyway, so he he does like
[29:01] Speaker 3: that they send out McCord and some other guys in
[29:04] Speaker 3: the Office of Security to basically lean on the local
[29:06] Speaker 3: police to make sure that the CIA is not implicated
[29:09] Speaker 3: in its.
[29:10] Speaker 2: Rule to suicide.
[29:12] Speaker 3: So McCord from there, I think he ended up like
[29:15] Speaker 3: in the Civil Defense or something like that, which was
[29:18] Speaker 3: sort of a proto version of FEMA, you know, for
[29:20] Speaker 3: continuity of government operations. And he was also doing some
[29:23] Speaker 3: kind of communications work with the Air Force during the
[29:27] Speaker 3: early sixties, which again might have been made to arbinnet
[29:30] Speaker 3: and was almost surely a part of continuity of government.
[29:34] Speaker 3: So this is kind of like another reason why I
[29:36] Speaker 3: think McCord would have probably been involved in Artichoke, because
[29:38] Speaker 3: he was also doing a lot of this stuff for
[29:40] Speaker 3: COG like in the sixties, and that's you know, I
[29:44] Speaker 3: mean at the very upper echelon of national policy, you know,
[29:47] Speaker 3: I mean, we put a lot of emphasis on convert operations,
[29:50] Speaker 3: but it's actually nuclear policy that's where the upper echelons
[29:53] Speaker 3: of security are, and continuity of government is like a
[29:55] Speaker 3: big part of that. But anyways, so the cord retires
[30:02] Speaker 3: from the CIA like around the late nineteen sixties and
[30:05] Speaker 3: he sets up a security firm that he's running simultaneously. Wow,
[30:12] Speaker 3: he gets enlisted eventually with the plumbers around the early seventies.
[30:17] Speaker 3: One of the guys that was kind of his underling
[30:19] Speaker 3: in this was a guy, a private detective called Leon Russell.
[30:23] Speaker 3: At the time, Leon Russell was working with a call
[30:27] Speaker 3: girl in the DC area, and McCord had supplied him
[30:31] Speaker 3: with several thousand dollars for video equipment, bugging devices, all
[30:36] Speaker 3: this other kind of stuff so that he could do
[30:39] Speaker 3: the whole setup at her operation. And this is again
[30:43] Speaker 3: kind of getting back to why I do think there's
[30:46] Speaker 3: very strong evidence that these quote unquote safehouses were being
[30:49] Speaker 3: used for sexual blackmail, because that more or less seems
[30:52] Speaker 3: to be exactly what McCord was doing with this. Throughout
[30:55] Speaker 3: this entire time. He was reporting to his old boss
[30:59] Speaker 3: general in the Office of Security, and he was also
[31:03] Speaker 3: keeping other OS guys he was in touch with a
[31:06] Speaker 3: praise to what he was doing with this kind of stuff.
[31:10] Speaker 1: Interesting, So there was some sort of like honeypot involved
[31:15] Speaker 1: in this.
[31:16] Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's kind of the central
[31:19] Speaker 3: part of it. Well, first, let me tell you about
[31:21] Speaker 3: Heidi first, because that's going to blow your mind. So
[31:26] Speaker 3: the big woman who was central to this was a
[31:28] Speaker 3: woman named Heini Reinniken. And everything about this woman is
[31:34] Speaker 3: just absolutely insane. So she was born in Nazi Germany.
[31:40] Speaker 3: Her father had served in the German Navy. I don't
[31:44] Speaker 3: know if he was a full blown like member of
[31:46] Speaker 3: the Nazi Party or not, but he had certainly fought
[31:48] Speaker 3: from the Nazis during the Second World War. They relocated
[31:53] Speaker 3: to the United States to Reading, Pennsylvania, which that's kind
[31:57] Speaker 3: of a weird place and of itself, but I don't
[31:58] Speaker 3: want to get two sidetracks, but Pennsylvania's had a lot
[32:02] Speaker 3: of far right groups active there for a lot of years.
[32:05] Speaker 3: But anyway, the family ends up there from Nazi Germany,
[32:09] Speaker 3: and you have a series of very peculiar events that
[32:13] Speaker 3: happens with her around fifty five fifty six, So her
[32:17] Speaker 3: mother suddenly divorces her father, Heidi leaves and joins the
[32:23] Speaker 3: army about twelve months after that, and in the interurn,
[32:28] Speaker 3: her mother remarries and suddenly has a kid shortly before
[32:34] Speaker 3: she joins the army, or at least that's the official story.
[32:37] Speaker 3: What seems to have been the case was that her
[32:40] Speaker 3: biological father had sexually abused her for years, had gotten
[32:46] Speaker 3: her pregnant, and the kid that her mom and her
[32:51] Speaker 3: new husband were trying to claim was theirs was actually Heide's.
[32:55] Speaker 3: And after this kid is born, Heidi joins the Army.
[33:01] Speaker 3: So she lasts technically about a year or two in
[33:05] Speaker 3: the Army, decides it's not for her and ends up
[33:09] Speaker 3: going back to the States and winds up in the
[33:13] Speaker 3: DC area, where she basically becomes mole slash call girl
[33:16] Speaker 3: for the Mafia. She's working with Joe Neslin. In the
[33:20] Speaker 3: DC area. She knows the Selini brothers who were really
[33:24] Speaker 3: big in Resorts International that was the gaming company that
[33:27] Speaker 3: Donald Trump ended up owning. Eventually she knows me or
[33:31] Speaker 3: Lansky and some of these other guys. So she's kind
[33:34] Speaker 3: of bouncing back and forth between DC and I think
[33:38] Speaker 3: Dallas at one point as well. In these different prostitution
[33:43] Speaker 3: rings that the Mafia had, I mean back in this
[33:45] Speaker 3: whole era, they had, you know, kind of like a
[33:47] Speaker 3: network of girls that they would move around from state
[33:50] Speaker 3: to state for a lot of these different operations. So
[33:55] Speaker 3: she's doing that for years and then towards the end
[33:59] Speaker 3: of the city she ends up back in DC, and
[34:03] Speaker 3: she appears to have gone solo at this point in time.
[34:06] Speaker 3: This is like right around the time that she would
[34:08] Speaker 3: have hooked up with McCord and some of these other people.
[34:11] Speaker 2: And she starts.
[34:12] Speaker 3: Running a callgirl ring out of Columbia Plaza, which is
[34:16] Speaker 3: right next to water Gate. I mean, it's not right next,
[34:19] Speaker 3: but it's you know, it's not that far. Let's just
[34:21] Speaker 3: leave it at that. It's with an easy walking distance.
[34:24] Speaker 3: And again this is being bugged by guys in the
[34:28] Speaker 3: board's working with and there's a lot of VIPs that
[34:31] Speaker 3: she's starting to get. Originally a lot of her clients
[34:35] Speaker 3: were affiliated with the Republican Party, but once the DC
[34:40] Speaker 3: operation gets going, it seems like that they're getting people
[34:43] Speaker 3: there from the DNC. And specifically, there was one phone
[34:48] Speaker 3: in the DNC. There was a secretary I can't remember
[34:51] Speaker 3: her name now, Maxine something Maxine Wells I think might
[34:55] Speaker 3: have been it. It, but Maxine Wells was the secretary for
[34:58] Speaker 3: one of the guys in the DNC, and she seems
[35:00] Speaker 3: to be the one who was basically Heidi's point woman
[35:03] Speaker 3: in the DNC, like she would take requests from people
[35:07] Speaker 3: in the office. She would call Heidi up and then
[35:10] Speaker 3: they would be given a time, you know, to head
[35:12] Speaker 3: over to Columbia Plaza or at the exchange quote unquote.
[35:16] Speaker 3: So within a couple of years she's got a lot
[35:20] Speaker 3: of very prominent figures who are brought into all this,
[35:25] Speaker 3: and she also starts getting a lot of headway into
[35:28] Speaker 3: the nexton administration because she befriends mo Dean, who was
[35:32] Speaker 3: the wife of John Dene, who again was one of
[35:36] Speaker 3: the really famous Watergate people. So it's interesting because John
[35:42] Speaker 3: Dene was actually one of her clients as well, and
[35:49] Speaker 3: shortly before the Okay, so another guy that they brought
[35:54] Speaker 3: him was this DC attorney Philip Bailey to help with
[35:57] Speaker 3: various functions. I think he was basically helped the blunder
[36:00] Speaker 3: of the money or something like that. But Bailey gets
[36:03] Speaker 3: arrested in seventy two, shortly before the whole Watergate thing breaks,
[36:08] Speaker 3: and this is the first time the authorities kind of
[36:11] Speaker 3: get some inclination about like what's going on at the
[36:13] Speaker 3: Columbia set up and when they start looking at it.
[36:19] Speaker 2: So interesting.
[36:20] Speaker 3: Yeah, so again, you know, the whole rationale that's given
[36:24] Speaker 3: for Watergate was that the plumbers were going in there
[36:27] Speaker 3: to try to get intelligence on the campaign strategy or
[36:30] Speaker 3: something like that the Democrats were going to be using.
[36:34] Speaker 3: But it's a funny thing that the break in happened
[36:37] Speaker 3: shortly after authorities start looking at this callgirl Ray and
[36:43] Speaker 3: also because you have members of Nixon's staff who are
[36:47] Speaker 3: also involved in it. And the funny thing about this
[36:50] Speaker 3: is John Dean was really the one who had urged
[36:53] Speaker 3: them to do the Watergate break in. He was the
[36:55] Speaker 3: guy who had pushed Attorney General John Mitchell to sign
[36:58] Speaker 3: off on it and all this other kind of so so.
[37:01] Speaker 1: It really could have been like some cover up for
[37:04] Speaker 1: some massive mind control assassination honeypot operation.
[37:09] Speaker 3: Well it's I think it might have partly been to
[37:12] Speaker 3: I mean, from Dean's perspective, it might have actually started
[37:15] Speaker 3: for him just trying to save his ass, But I
[37:17] Speaker 3: mean he also might have been getting pressure to do
[37:19] Speaker 3: this because well I'll get into this in a second,
[37:21] Speaker 3: but yeah, I mean there was just you know, he
[37:25] Speaker 3: and several of the other members of what Nixon white
[37:27] Speaker 3: house were thoroughly implicated in this. So this is a
[37:31] Speaker 3: sitting president. They could have been in big, you know,
[37:34] Speaker 3: trouble with this and for the broader administration. But also
[37:38] Speaker 3: if you wanted to get Nixon out of the office.
[37:40] Speaker 3: It was also a compelling set of circumstances and also too,
[37:45] Speaker 3: you know, the breaking goes well. Chances are the public
[37:47] Speaker 3: would have never heard of this, but it didn't. And
[37:53] Speaker 3: that's where the whole thing with James McCord is really interesting,
[37:56] Speaker 3: because McCord is basically the guy who bungled the whole operation.
[38:00] Speaker 3: It was partly due to the use of so okay,
[38:05] Speaker 3: like you would have cleaning crews that would go into
[38:07] Speaker 3: these big buildings in DC during this timeframe, and they
[38:11] Speaker 3: didn't just give everybody like master keys. So like what
[38:13] Speaker 3: they would do is they would take duct tape and
[38:15] Speaker 3: they would put them like over the you know, the
[38:18] Speaker 3: latches and stuff by the lock so that the doors
[38:20] Speaker 3: would stay open. And that was essentially what a cleaning
[38:24] Speaker 3: crew would do when they were trying to clean out
[38:26] Speaker 3: these big office buildings like that, so you don't have
[38:28] Speaker 3: to go run and get your supervisor every time you
[38:30] Speaker 3: need him to open a door or something like that,
[38:31] Speaker 3: so you can get into vacuum. So this is like
[38:35] Speaker 3: what McCory went around and did for like the entire
[38:37] Speaker 3: Watergate and in theory he had been gathering intelligence in
[38:41] Speaker 3: this operation for like a couple of weeks, but didn't
[38:44] Speaker 3: realize this was not a night when there was a
[38:46] Speaker 3: cleaning crew. The no cleaning crew should be scheduled there.
[38:49] Speaker 3: So one of the guards immediately, you know, recognizes that
[38:53] Speaker 3: and it's like, oh, this is really weird. Well, maybe
[38:55] Speaker 3: they just forgot to take the tape off and a
[38:57] Speaker 3: couple of points. So he starts taking the tape off
[39:00] Speaker 3: and relocking the doors. McCord comes back, sees that the
[39:04] Speaker 3: doors are now locked, and apparently doesn't think anything of it,
[39:08] Speaker 3: so he goes back and then starts retaping the doors
[39:11] Speaker 3: open again. And at that point the guard is like, Okay,
[39:15] Speaker 3: there's something really sketchy with this because I mean there's
[39:18] Speaker 3: no cleaning crew scheduled. And then, you know, after I
[39:20] Speaker 3: took the tape off, somebody's coming back here and retaping
[39:23] Speaker 3: these doors open. And then on top of that, DC
[39:27] Speaker 3: WECE cop Carl Chauffeur I think showed up like almost immediately. Actually,
[39:33] Speaker 3: I think he might have been the first cop who
[39:34] Speaker 3: arrived there after the authorities were called in, which again
[39:38] Speaker 3: is really weird because this is a vice cop, you know,
[39:40] Speaker 3: plain clothes cop. He's not like a patrol cop, which
[39:43] Speaker 3: is normally what you would get for like a break
[39:45] Speaker 3: in like that. And there's been a lot of rumblings
[39:48] Speaker 3: that was actually McCord who tipped him off, because again,
[39:51] Speaker 3: as a vice cop, he worked with the Office of
[39:53] Speaker 3: Security a lot, you know, giving them tips on you know,
[39:57] Speaker 3: different you know, like say gay prostitution and rings and
[40:00] Speaker 3: stuff like that if they needed, you know, stuff blackmail.
[40:04] Speaker 3: So it seems very likely that James mccorr just totally
[40:09] Speaker 3: bungled this entire thing deliberately. And it's possible in my
[40:14] Speaker 3: mind that John Dean had also been pressured into urging
[40:19] Speaker 3: the break in in the first place because he had
[40:22] Speaker 3: been implicated and this blackmail rang along with his wife.
[40:26] Speaker 3: And I think a lot of this ultimately came down
[40:28] Speaker 3: to a desire to remove Nixon from the White House
[40:32] Speaker 3: because of the policies with China and all this other
[40:35] Speaker 3: stuff that was going on.
[40:36] Speaker 1: That's so it's so strange how there's so many angles
[40:39] Speaker 1: in so many layers, and they could seemingly accomplish different
[40:45] Speaker 1: outcomes for the different reasons of this one event.
[40:50] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well, I mean there was a lot of
[40:52] Speaker 3: different you know figures in play, with different agendas in that.
[40:56] Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean it definitely is very like these
[41:00] Speaker 3: underworld with us, which I think is one of the
[41:02] Speaker 3: reasons why people don't talk about.
[41:04] Speaker 2: Watergate a lot.
[41:05] Speaker 3: But to kind of get back to what you were
[41:06] Speaker 3: saying about, like the mind control stuff, what's really interesting.
[41:09] Speaker 3: So Watergate happens in like seventy two, like late seventy
[41:13] Speaker 3: two is in the break in, and then it starts
[41:15] Speaker 3: to come out I think around seventy three, though it
[41:18] Speaker 3: doesn't become a huge scandal until seventy four. But what's
[41:21] Speaker 3: important about this is seventy three is the year that
[41:26] Speaker 3: both Artichoke and mk Ultra are officially shuttered. And you know,
[41:29] Speaker 3: this is also when William Colby starts having all the
[41:32] Speaker 3: records destroyed and all this other stuff. So it's an
[41:37] Speaker 3: interesting thing. I've often sort of wondered if one of
[41:41] Speaker 3: the reasons why they did that preemptively is because of
[41:45] Speaker 3: the Watergate break in, because you had this blackmail ring
[41:48] Speaker 3: that was being run out of it, and it seems
[41:50] Speaker 3: like one of the main figures in it was James McCord,
[41:52] Speaker 3: who had quite possibly worked on Project art and Choke,
[41:55] Speaker 3: and it definitely came out that he was reporting to
[41:58] Speaker 3: his boss, General Paul Gaynor, should say his old boss,
[42:01] Speaker 3: quote unquote General Paul Gaynor, who was the guy who
[42:04] Speaker 3: directly ran Art to Choke. So you know, this is
[42:08] Speaker 3: like another kind of big component of this. It was
[42:11] Speaker 3: probably instrumental in exposing a lot of this stuff to
[42:14] Speaker 3: the public at large too, and I think that might
[42:16] Speaker 3: have been one of the reasons why the Nixon White
[42:19] Speaker 3: House and a lot of other people in the maybe
[42:21] Speaker 3: of these security services who weren't on board with this
[42:23] Speaker 3: were kind of forced to go along with it because,
[42:26] Speaker 3: like I said before, you know, like I mean, MK
[42:28] Speaker 3: Ultra was much more of like a Rockefeller.
[42:30] Speaker 2: Kind of thing.
[42:32] Speaker 3: But you know, they, I mean, this is like right
[42:34] Speaker 3: around the time, you know, Nelson was poised to come
[42:36] Speaker 3: in as the vice president, so they don't want this
[42:40] Speaker 3: stuff coming out, you know.
[42:42] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[42:43] Speaker 2: So and again, you know.
[42:45] Speaker 3: We don't know how far some of this really went,
[42:47] Speaker 3: but you have the whole circumstances with Nelson Rockefeller too.
[42:51] Speaker 3: He becomes the vice president with Gerald board and then
[42:55] Speaker 3: he's abruptly asked to resign as the vice president going
[42:59] Speaker 3: into the election in seventy six as part of like
[43:01] Speaker 3: the Halloween massacre. And the guy who really ran a
[43:04] Speaker 3: lot of this was Donald Rumsfeld, who had originally been
[43:09] Speaker 3: i think Ford's chief of staff and then later he
[43:11] Speaker 3: was the Secretary of Defense. This isn't the seventies, of course,
[43:13] Speaker 3: he became the Secretary of Defense again, but he was
[43:16] Speaker 3: the Secretary of Defense during this time of frame, and
[43:18] Speaker 3: he basically pulled a bunch of strings to get Rockefeller
[43:22] Speaker 3: kicked off of the ticket. So it's very interesting, especially
[43:27] Speaker 3: since Rumy was like kind of later the guy, I
[43:29] Speaker 3: mean who brought in a lot of these enhanced interrogation
[43:32] Speaker 3: methods and stuff like that into the pentagony.
[43:34] Speaker 1: It makes me wonder how much of these black operations
[43:38] Speaker 1: have evolved into underlying ops that are dictating some of
[43:45] Speaker 1: the things that we're facing today.
[43:47] Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, I mean they very much are, because
[43:51] Speaker 3: you know, just with the case of Donald Rumsfeld, I mean,
[43:54] Speaker 3: you know, the guy did so much to reformulate the
[43:57] Speaker 3: national security establishment, especially you know, basically great paving the
[44:01] Speaker 3: way for the Joint Special Operations Command to rise in
[44:04] Speaker 3: such a tremendous amount of power and influence in the
[44:09] Speaker 3: twenty first century. But yeah, I mean, and Cheney also
[44:14] Speaker 3: actually was really big in the Ford administration too, So
[44:17] Speaker 3: this was sort of like the time that the Unholy Duo,
[44:21] Speaker 3: you know, first kind of flex their political muscles as well.
[44:24] Speaker 3: And I mean, obviously they would go on to have
[44:26] Speaker 3: a tremendous amount of influence in the US and twenty
[44:29] Speaker 3: first century and beyond.
[44:30] Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, it just makes me wonder how much
[44:34] Speaker 1: of what they were experimenting on and working on in
[44:39] Speaker 1: their early stages has now just become fully implemented into
[44:43] Speaker 1: our reality as mind control devices for the masses.
[44:48] Speaker 3: Well yeah, I mean, especially when you look at something
[44:50] Speaker 3: like the Internet. I mean, like I was saying before,
[44:52] Speaker 3: this was basically designed as a counterinsurgency tool. I mean,
[44:56] Speaker 3: it was there to help harvest data and to go
[44:58] Speaker 3: through it and mind it with like these addictive models
[45:00] Speaker 3: and so forth. I mean, obviously they couldn't have necessarily
[45:04] Speaker 3: foreseen the future with you know, social media and whatnot,
[45:06] Speaker 3: but I mean that ended up also becoming a gold
[45:09] Speaker 3: mine for a lot of this kind of stuff. So yeah,
[45:12] Speaker 3: it's just it's just really shocking when you think about it.
[45:15] Speaker 3: I mean, the stuff that was being put in place
[45:17] Speaker 3: all the way back then and now we're kind of
[45:20] Speaker 3: seeing how this stuff is you know, just the hole
[45:22] Speaker 3: that it has on society now, I mean it's staggering.
[45:26] Speaker 1: Let's get to some of the higher strange aspects of
[45:30] Speaker 1: some of this. This is connected to the Nine, which
[45:34] Speaker 1: is an incredibly interesting story about supposedly non human entities
[45:41] Speaker 1: that were contacted by these very elite groups. Could you
[45:44] Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about these possible connections.
[45:47] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Well let me go over the Nine here
[45:49] Speaker 3: right quick. Yeah. So they were supposedly these inter dimensional beings.
[45:56] Speaker 3: They're trends in at their physical form, and some accounts
[45:59] Speaker 3: they were said be you know, kind of house within
[46:02] Speaker 3: a computer that was on a spaceship called Spectra that
[46:05] Speaker 3: was like orbiting across the you know, around Earth.
[46:08] Speaker 2: But the story changed a lot over the years in
[46:11] Speaker 2: that regard.
[46:12] Speaker 3: Also, you know, they got the name the Nine, the
[46:14] Speaker 3: Grand Need I believe of ancient Egypt, the Pantheon of Gods,
[46:17] Speaker 3: because supposedly, you know, they have been appearing to humanity
[46:20] Speaker 3: for centuries as manifestations of different deities and all this
[46:25] Speaker 3: other kind of stuff. So they were supposedly originally contacted
[46:30] Speaker 3: by a guy called Adrinipewharic during a seance in New
[46:33] Speaker 3: Year's Eve nineteen fifty two, and then a couple of
[46:37] Speaker 3: months later they had a second seance where they were
[46:39] Speaker 3: again contacted. And this is like the really famous one.
[46:43] Speaker 3: I think Peter Lavenda called it the seance that changed
[46:45] Speaker 3: the world, because besides Puharic, you had a lot of
[46:48] Speaker 3: these you know, elite blue blood families there. You have
[46:52] Speaker 3: members of the Depon family, of the Astor family, all
[46:56] Speaker 3: this good stuff, the pain family, I think.
[46:58] Speaker 1: So, yeah, who was organizing these seances? What was was
[47:04] Speaker 1: there a certain main group behind this.
[47:07] Speaker 3: It was organized by Pew Harrick's Round Table Foundation, which
[47:11] Speaker 3: he had set up like around forty eight or something
[47:13] Speaker 3: like that, and in theory, a lot of the money
[47:17] Speaker 3: for that was coming, you know, from these wealthy donors.
[47:20] Speaker 3: I think specifically it was the one aster Air I
[47:23] Speaker 3: can't remember her name off the top of my head,
[47:25] Speaker 3: at least, you know, I'll get into some different possibilities
[47:28] Speaker 3: for this in a minute, but that was at least
[47:30] Speaker 3: one of the theories that was given for this.
[47:33] Speaker 2: So PW.
[47:34] Speaker 3: Harrick has like this big seance in fifty three, and
[47:39] Speaker 3: this leads to what effectively almost becomes this cult I
[47:43] Speaker 3: think that's been going around within certain national security circles
[47:47] Speaker 3: in later entertainment. By the early sixties, Gene Roddenberry had
[47:53] Speaker 3: actually started to become interested in some of these channeling
[47:55] Speaker 3: sessions and what have you. And eventually this is, you know,
[47:58] Speaker 3: if you guys don't know this, the creator Star Trek,
[48:01] Speaker 3: and eventually some of this stuff was incorporated into Star Trek,
[48:04] Speaker 3: especially like in the later shows. I mean, there's some
[48:07] Speaker 3: thinking that Star Trek DS nine, for instance, was totally
[48:11] Speaker 3: modeled upon some of these encounters, and there's definitely some
[48:15] Speaker 3: I mean you can see like with the Profits, for instance,
[48:17] Speaker 3: in the DS nine world, there's definitely some very clear
[48:20] Speaker 3: parallels with The Nine.
[48:22] Speaker 2: Also with Q.
[48:23] Speaker 3: I mean basically it's these interdimensional beings that exist outside
[48:27] Speaker 3: of time and space and all this other kind of stuff.
[48:31] Speaker 3: So it was a big thing with The Nine and
[48:35] Speaker 3: Peter Lavinda got into this and the Sinister Forces book
[48:38] Speaker 3: the first one, I think, which was the also I
[48:41] Speaker 3: believe the first time this has really been addressed to
[48:43] Speaker 3: the public at large, and that was the kind of
[48:46] Speaker 3: lose connections that they had to the Kennedy assassination. So
[48:51] Speaker 3: one of the guys who helped Pugh Harrick channel The
[48:54] Speaker 3: Nine and who worked with him for years was a
[48:56] Speaker 3: guy called Arthur Young who had made a fortune by
[49:00] Speaker 3: inventing the Bell helicopter, which served as the basis for
[49:03] Speaker 3: the Huie, and then he later married another society woman.
[49:07] Speaker 3: I can't remember her name now, but he was, you know,
[49:09] Speaker 3: very good financially and was able to basically dedicate most
[49:13] Speaker 3: of the rest of his life after the forties to
[49:15] Speaker 3: the study of consciousness or something like that. I think
[49:18] Speaker 3: he founded the Institute of Consciousness. I can't remember what
[49:21] Speaker 3: exactly his thing was called, but he was a really big,
[49:24] Speaker 3: like early New Age thinker and what have you. He
[49:26] Speaker 3: still has like a lot of influence in those circles.
[49:30] Speaker 3: So Young is the stepfather to this guy called Michael Payne,
[49:36] Speaker 3: who ends up Oh yeah, okay, so that was right.
[49:38] Speaker 3: His wife was Ruth Forbes Pain, so she was a
[49:41] Speaker 3: member of the Forbes family, and she had married into
[49:43] Speaker 3: the Pain family and then they divorced, and this was
[49:47] Speaker 3: her son, Michael Payne, who you know, again, Arthur becomes
[49:49] Speaker 3: like the step father too. So anyway, Michael Payne is
[49:53] Speaker 3: married to a woman also named Ruth. Ruth Payne, and
[49:57] Speaker 3: fast forward to the nineteen sixties. They befriend a young
[50:04] Speaker 3: marine who had just returned after defecting from the Soviet Union.
[50:08] Speaker 3: His name was Lee Harvey Oswald, and they would continue
[50:12] Speaker 3: to house him on and off, and especially his wife
[50:15] Speaker 3: throughout the whole period in the early sixties leading up
[50:18] Speaker 3: to the Kennedy assassination. It was actually Michael Payne who
[50:22] Speaker 3: introduced Lee Harvey Oswald to like the white Russian circles
[50:25] Speaker 3: in Dallas and Marina Oswald. His wife was actually living
[50:29] Speaker 3: with the Pains at the time of the assassination and
[50:32] Speaker 3: they kind of closely managed her during the whole time
[50:37] Speaker 3: period with that. So it's yeah, it's very interesting in
[50:42] Speaker 3: that regard. So the connection that the nine head that
[50:47] Speaker 3: the Kennedy assassination is pretty well known, but the one
[50:50] Speaker 3: with the Watergate has almost never talked about.
[50:53] Speaker 2: So to get.
[50:55] Speaker 3: Back to Adrena of Peuharic, Pewharic always claimed that he
[51:00] Speaker 3: first started doing work for the National Security State in
[51:06] Speaker 3: nineteen forty seven for what was known as Project Penguin.
[51:12] Speaker 3: I have never been able to find a record of
[51:14] Speaker 3: anything called Penguin, but the Navy did start Project Pelican.
[51:20] Speaker 2: In nineteen forty seven.
[51:23] Speaker 3: So and later when pew Harrick was brought in to
[51:27] Speaker 3: do work on this behavioral modification, because I should point
[51:30] Speaker 3: out pu Harrick was actually one of the big guys
[51:33] Speaker 3: to originally push magic mushrooms and stuff like that too.
[51:36] Speaker 3: He was really big into psychedelics all this other kind
[51:38] Speaker 3: of stuff. He was being used by Project Artichoke, not
[51:45] Speaker 3: MK Ultra, and art Show was very enthusiastic about the
[51:50] Speaker 3: work that he was doing, which I'll get to here
[51:52] Speaker 3: in a second, but MK Ultra not so much. And
[51:56] Speaker 3: that led to a very strange series of events. Basically,
[52:01] Speaker 3: Gottlie of Dispatch this guy John Mholland, who was a
[52:04] Speaker 3: professional stage magician to investigate the parapsychology work that Pew
[52:09] Speaker 3: Harrick was doing at the Armor Research Institute for Project
[52:12] Speaker 3: arted Schoke, and Maholland was really close to the Rockefeller family,
[52:17] Speaker 3: specifically Nelson kind of think he was actually the you know,
[52:21] Speaker 3: the Rockefeller guy who was put into MK Ultra to
[52:25] Speaker 3: keep an eye on how things were going to see
[52:27] Speaker 3: if they were being defrauded or something like that. But anyway,
[52:31] Speaker 3: he sets about trying to totally destroy pew Harrick's reputation
[52:36] Speaker 3: after he witnesses his work at Armor and eventually gets
[52:39] Speaker 3: Hi drummed out of the CIA and any support from
[52:41] Speaker 3: the CIA. And it's really interesting because years later, like
[52:45] Speaker 3: in the nineteen eighties, the Rockefers were again after Pew Harrick.
[52:51] Speaker 3: This was like when Pew Harark was doing work on
[52:53] Speaker 3: you know what we think of now is like zero
[52:55] Speaker 3: point energy, and I think they had threatened him with
[52:58] Speaker 3: like a lawsuit or something like that, but he basically
[53:01] Speaker 3: had to sign some kind of like waiver for them
[53:04] Speaker 3: stating that he would cease all like research on you know,
[53:07] Speaker 3: zero point shit. So the Rockefellers really had an ax
[53:11] Speaker 3: to grind for some reason with Jugh Harrick for like
[53:14] Speaker 3: years and years, but the Office of Security loved him.
[53:19] Speaker 3: And this brings up a lot of interesting possibilities for this.
[53:22] Speaker 3: So like on the one hand, you know, getting back
[53:24] Speaker 3: to like the Roundtable foundation that he had set up.
[53:27] Speaker 2: Some of the backers.
[53:28] Speaker 3: One was like Henry Wallace, and there was another guy
[53:31] Speaker 3: from Eastern Europe. I can't remember his name, but Henry
[53:34] Speaker 3: Wallace was compromised by the ocultas Nicholas Rourick on behalf
[53:39] Speaker 3: of the KGB. Well it wasn't called the kg BE
[53:42] Speaker 3: back then, whatever it was called during like the pre
[53:44] Speaker 3: World War two era because he had been in contact
[53:47] Speaker 3: with Rourick and that broy could turned over all these
[53:50] Speaker 3: Dear Guru letters essentially that he had written to him
[53:53] Speaker 3: to the Soviets and they were threatening to expose that
[53:56] Speaker 3: and it led to some political deals. But anyway, Henry
[54:00] Speaker 3: Wallace was the vice president under FDR and this had
[54:02] Speaker 3: basically led to him being forced to resign as the
[54:05] Speaker 3: vice president. But Wallace was a guy who had been
[54:08] Speaker 3: suspected of Communist activity, and there were a couple of
[54:11] Speaker 3: other guys in Pew Harreck's MILU that were also suspected
[54:14] Speaker 3: of this. And this is interesting because the big guy
[54:18] Speaker 3: who was running the day to day operations for Artichoke
[54:21] Speaker 3: was an O and I guy called Morse Allen who
[54:24] Speaker 3: had spent a lot of time in the nineteen early
[54:28] Speaker 3: forties going into the mid forties chasing rids in New
[54:31] Speaker 3: York City for the O and I prior to going
[54:34] Speaker 3: you know, the World War two thing breaking out and
[54:36] Speaker 3: going back to like Nazis and fascists. But Allen was
[54:39] Speaker 3: like a veteran communist hunter and another one of Pugh
[54:43] Speaker 3: Harrick's contacts later was another Office of Naval Intelligence guy
[54:46] Speaker 3: called Edwin Byrd I believe, who had done essentially the
[54:49] Speaker 3: same thing during World War Two, but in Boston. In fact,
[54:53] Speaker 3: Morse Allen and Byrd I believe it actually testified about
[54:55] Speaker 3: Communist a version at the same Senate hearing at one point.
[55:00] Speaker 3: So Puharic seems to have had a lot of these
[55:02] Speaker 3: guys to these O and I guys going back to
[55:04] Speaker 3: the forties, and these guys specifically were really big on
[55:09] Speaker 3: trying to find communists aversions. So I kind of wondered
[55:12] Speaker 3: if partly why they set up the Round Table Foundation,
[55:16] Speaker 3: you know, because again, as you know now, as back then,
[55:18] Speaker 3: I mean, most people who were into this sort of
[55:20] Speaker 3: New agey stuff tended to be politically left, and especially
[55:23] Speaker 3: in this era, it was a lot more like revolutionary
[55:25] Speaker 3: type of people. So yeah, maybe that's kind of a
[55:28] Speaker 3: bit of an anti communist operation to keep tabs and
[55:31] Speaker 3: these people see like what they're doing on the one hand,
[55:34] Speaker 3: but on the other hand, some of the stuff Puharic
[55:37] Speaker 3: was doing his research that inspired the Office of Security
[55:41] Speaker 3: is really interesting and not a lot of details have
[55:45] Speaker 3: come out about it, but one of the projects that
[55:48] Speaker 3: was based on his research was roughly centered around the
[55:52] Speaker 3: use of narco hypnotism involving women and children. And in
[56:00] Speaker 3: the case of the women, it seems like what was
[56:04] Speaker 3: happening is they were being hypnotized to be used as couriers.
[56:11] Speaker 3: And this was, from what I've been able to tell,
[56:13] Speaker 3: was actually a fairly common practice. I mean Richard case Nagel,
[56:16] Speaker 3: for instance, who was a CIA guy. He was one
[56:19] Speaker 3: of the big people who tried to expose the Kennedy
[56:21] Speaker 3: assassination and Dick Russell's book The Man Who Knows Too
[56:25] Speaker 3: Much About Him, he just kind of like randomly mentions,
[56:27] Speaker 3: how you know, he would be assigned by the CIA
[56:30] Speaker 3: to go deliver like a letter to Thailand or something,
[56:32] Speaker 3: you would have to go by the Office of Security
[56:34] Speaker 3: to be hypnotized before he went to do it. And
[56:37] Speaker 3: then of course there's the whole thing with Candy Jones
[56:40] Speaker 3: and whatnot. So you had the hypno couriers and all
[56:43] Speaker 3: this stuff going on, and then god knows what they
[56:45] Speaker 3: were doing.
[56:46] Speaker 1: Who is Candy Jones?
[56:47] Speaker 4: What is this?
[56:48] Speaker 3: Candy Jones was sort of like an early version of
[56:52] Speaker 3: like what we would kind of think of now as
[56:54] Speaker 3: a quote unquote monarch victim. I mean, she had like
[56:56] Speaker 3: these multiple personalities that she came and been implanted by
[57:01] Speaker 3: some of these methods. So yeah, and you know again
[57:05] Speaker 3: at the same time, during this period, you know, this
[57:07] Speaker 3: is the early fifties, this is right around the time
[57:10] Speaker 3: the Office of Security had developed what was known as
[57:13] Speaker 3: the art of choke treatment or the aid treatment, and
[57:17] Speaker 3: it was described as being like what was it a
[57:20] Speaker 3: rocket ship to the moon. And effectively what they did
[57:26] Speaker 3: is they injected peeple. They would strap them into a
[57:28] Speaker 3: share and they wouldn't inject them with a concoction with
[57:31] Speaker 3: LSD and men attacks they think, is what it was called.
[57:36] Speaker 3: But this was a drug that was used in lieu
[57:41] Speaker 3: of electro shock therapy and that's because when you were
[57:45] Speaker 3: injected with it, you went into uncontrollable convulsions. This is
[57:50] Speaker 3: why they had to be strapped in. So basically they're
[57:52] Speaker 3: giving them this massive joke of LSD with this drug
[57:56] Speaker 3: that is inducing convulsion.
[57:58] Speaker 1: So they're.
[58:00] Speaker 3: Yeah the whole time for that while they're tripping balls.
[58:06] Speaker 3: And if that didn't break them, then they would actually
[58:09] Speaker 3: start doing the full scale like electrical shocks. And this
[58:13] Speaker 3: is stuff that was already being done like operationally, like
[58:16] Speaker 3: in fifty two fifty three, Like right when mk Ultra
[58:18] Speaker 3: was just being set up, like everybody kind of thinks
[58:21] Speaker 3: that this was you know, the psychic driving stuff do
[58:23] Speaker 3: in camera, and it's like, no, they were already doing
[58:25] Speaker 3: that to people in the broader publay.
[58:28] Speaker 1: If you think about the people involved with some of
[58:31] Speaker 1: these black projects, Artichoke, mk Ultra also involved with these
[58:36] Speaker 1: deep dark occult aspects, metaphysical type rituals and seances, contacting beings.
[58:44] Speaker 1: That adds so many different layers to this and it
[58:47] Speaker 1: makes it much more terrifying.
[58:48] Speaker 3: Actually yeah, no, it absolutely does.
[58:51] Speaker 2: And see and that's like the.
[58:53] Speaker 3: Other thing about artich show versus mk ulture, because it's
[58:56] Speaker 3: like mk Ultra did get into some of the high
[58:58] Speaker 3: weirdness stuff, but based on what I've like researched in this,
[59:03] Speaker 3: this was much more the Office of Securities thing, because again,
[59:07] Speaker 3: you know, these are like mostly ex military and FBI guys,
[59:10] Speaker 3: whereas like the mk ultra guys and technical services stuff,
[59:13] Speaker 3: they're mostly like scientists.
[59:15] Speaker 2: And what have you.
[59:16] Speaker 3: So they you know, they were interested in the wu
[59:19] Speaker 3: Wu stuff, but I mean as scientists, they were also
[59:22] Speaker 3: very dubious and skeptical of it. But Artichoke was kind
[59:25] Speaker 3: of like, ah, man, you know, we're open to anything,
[59:28] Speaker 3: you know, just yes, I mean, you know, this is
[59:32] Speaker 3: essentially where I mean the research in the ESP began,
[59:34] Speaker 3: because I mean also like Artichoke was like funding research
[59:36] Speaker 3: that jb Ryan was doing it Like Duke University during
[59:40] Speaker 3: the early fifties. I mean, it seems like they were
[59:42] Speaker 3: doing a fair amount of that. And I mean, gosh,
[59:45] Speaker 3: you know, there's some some major rabbit holes with that.
[59:47] Speaker 3: I mean, another guy who was active in the Office
[59:51] Speaker 3: of Naval Intelligence with more potentially with more sound, there's
[59:54] Speaker 3: a good chance of this. In New York City during
[59:57] Speaker 3: nineteen forty two was a guy called el Ron Hubbard.
[1:00:01] Speaker 3: I'm sure a lot of you guys know them to
[1:00:03] Speaker 3: found the Church of Scientology. So shit, and that's you know,
[1:00:07] Speaker 3: again kind of interesting in life. The fact that Pew
[1:00:09] Speaker 3: Harc basically gets his whole cold around the nine up
[1:00:12] Speaker 3: and going, which eventually really makes a lot of inroads
[1:00:14] Speaker 3: with Hollywood types and all this stuff.
[1:00:16] Speaker 1: So there's so many connections to everything, and then it
[1:00:20] Speaker 1: even connects to some of the agendas that we're seeing today.
[1:00:24] Speaker 1: This is so incredible, man. Any other aspects that we
[1:00:28] Speaker 1: should cover. Before wrapping up, I want to hear about
[1:00:31] Speaker 1: a little bit about what your astronosis presentation will be
[1:00:34] Speaker 1: about as well how that ties into everything.
[1:00:37] Speaker 2: Well, to get back here to the connections with the Nine.
[1:00:39] Speaker 3: So, like I said before, these the people in the
[1:00:42] Speaker 3: Office of Security for Pew Hark's major sponsors during the
[1:00:45] Speaker 3: CIA when he was getting support from the CIA. They
[1:00:49] Speaker 3: loved Pew Harrid stuff. And that specifically would have been
[1:00:52] Speaker 3: Morse Allen and General Paul gain Or. Right, So you
[1:00:56] Speaker 3: fast forward to the seventies, You've you've got McCord here,
[1:01:01] Speaker 3: who is really the central figure in bungling the Watergate plot.
[1:01:04] Speaker 3: He worked with Gaynor and Alan in the Security Research staff.
[1:01:08] Speaker 3: He was very good friends with Gaynor, and he's reporting
[1:01:11] Speaker 3: to Gaynor the entire time that this stuff is like
[1:01:14] Speaker 3: going on. So this is the same guy who was
[1:01:18] Speaker 3: sponsoring Pugh Hart's research and who might even have been
[1:01:20] Speaker 3: one of the guys who was sponsoring all the seances
[1:01:22] Speaker 3: and stuff for the Nine. There was actually a couple
[1:01:24] Speaker 3: of Navy guys that were involved in that if I
[1:01:26] Speaker 3: remember correctly as well, and you got McCord who was
[1:01:30] Speaker 3: a part of the Security Research staff again, you know
[1:01:34] Speaker 3: involved in all this directly, and I mean he probably
[1:01:37] Speaker 3: was involved with Artichoke. I mean he at least would
[1:01:39] Speaker 3: have been in the periphery of the stuff that was
[1:01:41] Speaker 3: being conducted with this. So it's just really insane when
[1:01:46] Speaker 3: you think about all that. And then also the potential
[1:01:48] Speaker 3: you know, you get into this notion of like hypnotized
[1:01:51] Speaker 3: quarriers and whatnot, Well you could see how that could
[1:01:53] Speaker 3: also be applied to like a blackmail ring. So some
[1:01:57] Speaker 3: of Pugh Harrick's techniques that were even being you doing
[1:02:00] Speaker 3: the Columbia callgrol Ray. I mean, it's just to me
[1:02:04] Speaker 3: nuts because the jfk assassination of Watergate are really the
[1:02:08] Speaker 3: two I think major deep events in the United States
[1:02:13] Speaker 3: and the Cold War era. I mean, they just fundamentally
[1:02:16] Speaker 3: altered the course of US history.
[1:02:18] Speaker 1: They did, I think they paved a waight for a
[1:02:20] Speaker 1: lot of the operations to follow, some of the larger
[1:02:23] Speaker 1: things nine to eleven, COVID, the War on Terrorism, all
[1:02:27] Speaker 1: this stuff.
[1:02:28] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean absolutely, because again, you know, like
[1:02:32] Speaker 3: with Nixon, I mean there's always this depiction of him
[1:02:34] Speaker 3: as being this insane right wing radical, and I mean
[1:02:36] Speaker 3: he did do some pretty nasty stuff domestically like launching
[1:02:40] Speaker 3: war on drugs, though in fairness to Nixon, it was
[1:02:42] Speaker 3: the Reagan guys who really like militarized the warren drugs,
[1:02:46] Speaker 3: but his whole warn policy, the pursuit of dede taunt.
[1:02:51] Speaker 3: I mean, that could have seriously undermined the national security
[1:02:54] Speaker 3: state if we were eventually able to normalize relations with
[1:02:57] Speaker 3: the Soviet Union as well. That had happened to me again,
[1:03:01] Speaker 3: you know, it's like you're kind of saying, I mean, yeah,
[1:03:02] Speaker 3: we may not have never had anything like nine to
[1:03:04] Speaker 3: eleven and whatnot. Watergate is like, that's significant to all
[1:03:08] Speaker 3: these you know, things that came afterwards, and the nine
[1:03:12] Speaker 3: are present, and the backdrop of both the Kennedy assassination
[1:03:15] Speaker 3: and Watergate that is so creepy.
[1:03:19] Speaker 1: Spycraft, interdimensional beings, mind control assassins, incredible stuff. Dude, I
[1:03:25] Speaker 1: love it. I love it. To wrap up, tell us
[1:03:27] Speaker 1: a little bit about what we could expect and how
[1:03:30] Speaker 1: to get access to your presentation.
[1:03:33] Speaker 3: Well, I'll send you some links here for the astrognosis one,
[1:03:36] Speaker 3: but I'm speaking in the afternoon the twenty fourth, But
[1:03:38] Speaker 3: like I'm actually the closer for the things, so that's
[1:03:40] Speaker 3: going to be pretty gnarly and then we're gonna have
[1:03:41] Speaker 3: a Q and A afterwards. It's actually going to be
[1:03:43] Speaker 3: a the Theosophical Society's headquarters in Chicago, Ice. Yeah, so
[1:03:48] Speaker 3: you know you'll get to see that if you end
[1:03:49] Speaker 3: up coming there. But it's June twenty third, twenty fourth,
[1:03:52] Speaker 3: and twenty third. I mean, Chris Knowles is going to
[1:03:55] Speaker 3: be doing some presentation MITS four, which there's just some
[1:03:57] Speaker 3: great speakers, and then I'm going to be doing this presentation.
[1:04:01] Speaker 3: And like I said before, you know, Watergate is just
[1:04:03] Speaker 3: like a part of this and the kind of pullback. More
[1:04:06] Speaker 3: broadly speaking, my big focus is on the year nineteen
[1:04:09] Speaker 3: seventy four and how this fundamentally altered the course of history.
[1:04:15] Speaker 3: And my premise is basically that it was driven through
[1:04:18] Speaker 3: these contacts with these non human intelligences, because there were
[1:04:22] Speaker 3: three really pivotal things related to this that happened in
[1:04:26] Speaker 3: nineteen seventy four, and one was the revelation of the
[1:04:30] Speaker 3: Nine to the public at large, because nobody had heard
[1:04:33] Speaker 3: about any of this stuff until Puharic published Yuri, the
[1:04:37] Speaker 3: biographer of Uri Geller, who was one of his chandelers
[1:04:40] Speaker 3: at the Nine. This is the Israeli stage magician. Okay,
[1:04:43] Speaker 3: so he publishes Yuri in nineteen seventy four, and this
[1:04:46] Speaker 3: is the first time that the public at large is
[1:04:49] Speaker 3: made aware of the Nine who could be conceived of
[1:04:53] Speaker 3: as you know, essentially an AI as well, since supposedly
[1:04:57] Speaker 3: they were an intelligence and a computer. It was outside
[1:05:00] Speaker 3: of time and space trying to like influence human history
[1:05:04] Speaker 3: and said thing with satellites. Well, there were some other
[1:05:07] Speaker 3: people who had interesting experiences along those lines in seventy four.
[1:05:11] Speaker 3: One of them is a very well known science fiction
[1:05:13] Speaker 3: writer and the other one was a major Crowleyites slash
[1:05:18] Speaker 3: now Mali who doesn't get talked about a lot, but
[1:05:21] Speaker 3: she has had a profound influence on things as well.
[1:05:25] Speaker 3: So I'm going to unpack all of this and how
[1:05:27] Speaker 3: potentially the world has been fundamentally altered and potentially also
[1:05:31] Speaker 3: created multiple timelines, which is bleeding into things like the
[1:05:35] Speaker 3: Mendella effect and all this other stuff.
[1:05:37] Speaker 2: It's it's going to be out there. I can just
[1:05:39] Speaker 2: promise that.
[1:05:40] Speaker 3: So, Yeah, if you thought this presentation here on Watergate
[1:05:43] Speaker 3: was crazy, this is just the tip of the iceberg.
[1:05:46] Speaker 1: Oh I love it, I love it. We gotta check
[1:05:48] Speaker 1: that out. Steven thank you so much before you head out,
[1:05:51] Speaker 1: let the audience know once again or to find all
[1:05:54] Speaker 1: your wonderful stuff.
[1:05:56] Speaker 3: Well, I am the Visa blog. You can just find
[1:05:59] Speaker 3: out the goop was Sartin Vibe and I also am
[1:06:01] Speaker 3: the host of the Farm podcast the Farm Podcast Mark
[1:06:03] Speaker 3: two and you can also find me on Twitter at
[1:06:06] Speaker 3: at recluse s nine. And yes, the nine is in
[1:06:09] Speaker 3: reference to the nine.
[1:06:12] Speaker 1: Perfect awesome man. Well, we will definitely be doing this again.
[1:06:16] Speaker 1: We have so much more to talk about in the
[1:06:17] Speaker 1: future and we will do it. And until next time, everyone,
[1:06:21] Speaker 1: have an excellent evening. We will talk again tomorrow. We'll
[1:06:24] Speaker 1: see y'alld in.
[1:06:31] Speaker 4: Today.
[1:06:31] Speaker 1: I want to welcome back to the show Ryan Burns.
[1:06:34] Speaker 1: He began researching the Unta Basin and the mysterious skin
[1:06:38] Speaker 1: walkers in the area many years ago, but when his
[1:06:41] Speaker 1: passion for answers could no longer be quenched, he left
[1:06:45] Speaker 1: his corporate job in Salt Lake City and moved to
[1:06:48] Speaker 1: the desolate and remote Basin to investigate the ranch full time.
[1:06:52] Speaker 1: He now owns property overlooking the ranch. He hosts the
[1:06:56] Speaker 1: popular podcast Hero Paranormal and has written at his experiences
[1:07:01] Speaker 1: investigating shape shifters UFOs and precognitive intelligences. Ryan, welcome back.
[1:07:08] Speaker 4: How you doing great to be back. Howard's it going?
[1:07:12] Speaker 1: It's going great, man. I am so excited to get
[1:07:15] Speaker 1: some updates about not only some of the high strange
[1:07:19] Speaker 1: happenings in your region, but hopefully get into some of
[1:07:22] Speaker 1: the research and experimentation occurring there that's being done by
[1:07:26] Speaker 1: yourself and other interests, or at least however much you
[1:07:29] Speaker 1: can discuss. I know you have some NDAs going on
[1:07:33] Speaker 1: as well, so we'll see what we can get into.
[1:07:36] Speaker 1: Hopefully we'll jump down some deep rabbit holes as usual.
[1:07:40] Speaker 1: I expect my jaw to be on the floor by
[1:07:42] Speaker 1: the end of this broadcast. Now, for those that may
[1:07:45] Speaker 1: not be familiar, tell us just a little bit about
[1:07:48] Speaker 1: yourself and some of the things that you're working on.
[1:07:51] Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, about myself. Just an ordinary guy really
[1:07:56] Speaker 4: that years ago found myself in the Uinna basin of
[1:08:01] Speaker 4: Utah and had some extraordinary experiences. Unbeknownst to me, I
[1:08:08] Speaker 4: was young and dumb and basically entertaining the idea of
[1:08:14] Speaker 4: jumping on properties where I didn't know there was a
[1:08:18] Speaker 4: black budget Pentagon program taking place and a lot of
[1:08:26] Speaker 4: important life lessons were learned, But more importantly, I think
[1:08:29] Speaker 4: I kind of got this itch that I had to
[1:08:34] Speaker 4: scratch seeing some of the things I saw. And I'm
[1:08:38] Speaker 4: not the only one. This has now garnered huge national
[1:08:43] Speaker 4: media attention and is something that is not only just
[1:08:51] Speaker 4: on the desks of people at the Pentagon, but it's
[1:08:56] Speaker 4: it's kind of entered the realm of the regular Joe.
[1:09:01] Speaker 4: And Yeah, there's a lot there and I hope we
[1:09:05] Speaker 4: can get into some of it.
[1:09:06] Speaker 1: Oh, definitely going to get into it for sure. Now,
[1:09:09] Speaker 1: before we get into some of the things that you're
[1:09:11] Speaker 1: experimenting and working with, is there any recent profound experiences
[1:09:18] Speaker 1: that you've had or unexplainable happenings that you could tell
[1:09:22] Speaker 1: us about.
[1:09:24] Speaker 4: Yes, unbelievable stuff. Sweet, It's yeah, I have entered into
[1:09:30] Speaker 4: some affiliations, and you know, a lot of this stuff
[1:09:34] Speaker 4: is kind of I like to think divinely. It comes
[1:09:40] Speaker 4: your way if you believe in a universal consciousness. And
[1:09:44] Speaker 4: I think that consciousness is sort of the answer to
[1:09:48] Speaker 4: a lot of these bigger questions. It's not you know,
[1:09:52] Speaker 4: the latest scientific techniques, it's it's more of a consciousness issue.
[1:09:57] Speaker 4: So with that being said, I had the opportunity to
[1:10:03] Speaker 4: delve deeply down the rabbit hole of some witnessing I
[1:10:10] Speaker 4: guess of phenomena and phenomena interacting at a time of
[1:10:17] Speaker 4: a deep trance session experiments experiment that we were having
[1:10:23] Speaker 4: just south of the old Bigelow ranch there, and we
[1:10:27] Speaker 4: were utilizing various consciousness light technologies, among other things, a
[1:10:34] Speaker 4: lot of more ritual traditional resonance and sound instruments and yeah, anyway,
[1:10:44] Speaker 4: long story short man, to not get too convoluted. We
[1:10:47] Speaker 4: were doing this and a bystander took a photo of
[1:10:53] Speaker 4: what appeared to be a very fleshy, somewhat alien looking
[1:10:58] Speaker 4: just don't get caught up in the semantics, but non
[1:11:01] Speaker 4: non human looking craft hovering over and apparently observing us. Which, hey,
[1:11:09] Speaker 4: that's what we wanted. So oh that is crazy.
[1:11:13] Speaker 1: Now is this the same image that I saw?
[1:11:16] Speaker 2: It? Is?
[1:11:17] Speaker 1: That is?
[1:11:18] Speaker 4: Yet?
[1:11:18] Speaker 1: It looked Would you be able to describe a little
[1:11:20] Speaker 1: bit what this thing looked like? Look to me like
[1:11:23] Speaker 1: one of the dementors you'd see on Harry Potter or
[1:11:25] Speaker 1: some shit.
[1:11:27] Speaker 4: Yeah, man, I haven't seen Harry Potter, but it looks
[1:11:30] Speaker 4: very It looks like something you would witness, you know,
[1:11:37] Speaker 4: if you were peeking behind the veil, and you saw
[1:11:40] Speaker 4: some of these things that are in the integral workings
[1:11:44] Speaker 4: of our reality, like some kind of I don't want
[1:11:47] Speaker 4: to call it a drone. I don't want to call
[1:11:48] Speaker 4: it a craft. I don't want to call it a
[1:11:50] Speaker 4: biological but maybe a mixture of all those things.
[1:11:54] Speaker 2: It.
[1:11:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, it definitely did not look like your typical nuts
[1:11:59] Speaker 1: and bolts or physical technology to me.
[1:12:05] Speaker 4: No. No, And if it is, it's like from a
[1:12:07] Speaker 4: Stranger Things episode. Yeah, man, that was Now?
[1:12:12] Speaker 1: Is that is? Is that the only manifestation you had
[1:12:15] Speaker 1: while doing these types of experiments?
[1:12:19] Speaker 4: Hardly? You know. Sometimes it's D manifestations. And what I
[1:12:24] Speaker 4: mean by that is, uh, I've incorporated a variety that
[1:12:29] Speaker 4: we have incorporated us myself and some of my research
[1:12:33] Speaker 4: partners have incorporated, like I said, all kinds of traditional, ritualistic,
[1:12:38] Speaker 4: modern techniques, you name it. It's we believe it's not
[1:12:42] Speaker 4: a matter of poking the hornet's nest. It's a matter
[1:12:45] Speaker 4: of going into it. And it's, for lack of a
[1:12:52] Speaker 4: better word, the D manifestations I'm talking about are involving mirrors,
[1:12:58] Speaker 4: and sometimes you'll be taking pictures of these mirrors and
[1:13:01] Speaker 4: there will be no evidence of you even being there,
[1:13:05] Speaker 4: and that's mind blowing. So quite literally, you should be
[1:13:12] Speaker 4: in the shot taking a picture of the mirror. Yet
[1:13:14] Speaker 4: when you take a picture of the mirror, there's no
[1:13:17] Speaker 4: you in the shot. So it's not always manifestations. Sometimes
[1:13:21] Speaker 4: there's d manifestations.
[1:13:24] Speaker 1: Now, are you able to talk about some of the
[1:13:27] Speaker 1: equipment that you're using. You were saying that you're using
[1:13:30] Speaker 1: frequency and resonance devices. What are you able to tell
[1:13:35] Speaker 1: us about?
[1:13:36] Speaker 4: Sure, some of these things are There are non disclosure
[1:13:40] Speaker 4: understandings with institutes relating to consciousness. So some of this
[1:13:46] Speaker 4: stuff I can't talk about just because it is technically
[1:13:52] Speaker 4: top secret. They don't want it in the public domain.
[1:13:54] Speaker 4: But some of it I can talk about. We have
[1:13:57] Speaker 4: eighteenth Well, okay, where do I want to start? As
[1:14:01] Speaker 4: far as the resonance, As far as the resonance and
[1:14:04] Speaker 4: sound instruments, we have instruments that were designed to at
[1:14:10] Speaker 4: least in theory, contact and bring in ocean animals, so
[1:14:19] Speaker 4: aquatic animals and we play these. They sound very much
[1:14:24] Speaker 4: like whale calls and whale sounds. Yeah. Also other instruments,
[1:14:32] Speaker 4: and in addition to that, there are more traditional things
[1:14:41] Speaker 4: that we use like I said, mirrors that I have
[1:14:45] Speaker 4: a mirror that I purchased which is a couple hundred
[1:14:49] Speaker 4: years old, technically supposedly haunted. It can accommodate candles and
[1:14:59] Speaker 4: you know, very much much like John d and many
[1:15:04] Speaker 4: people who tried to peek behind the veil utilizing scrying mirrors,
[1:15:09] Speaker 4: this is somewhat similar. So yeah, we believe that consciousness
[1:15:16] Speaker 4: is the key, and you know the lock is uh
[1:15:23] Speaker 4: is just awaiting, you know, the key as they say,
[1:15:26] Speaker 4: when when the when the student's ready, the teacher will appear. Well,
[1:15:30] Speaker 4: it helps if you have a way into the room.
[1:15:32] Speaker 1: So incredible last time of year on you mentioned a
[1:15:36] Speaker 1: couple of things that I'm very curious if you're still
[1:15:38] Speaker 1: utilizing or have utilized any further, one being the angul lamp.
[1:15:43] Speaker 1: I believe that's how you pronounce it. Supposedly within a
[1:15:46] Speaker 1: certain radius may mimic the effects of d m T.
[1:15:51] Speaker 1: And then you also mentioned the god helmet. Are you
[1:15:55] Speaker 1: utilizing either of these things?
[1:15:57] Speaker 2: For sure?
[1:15:58] Speaker 4: Those are a given. I've definitely utilizing the those technologies
[1:16:04] Speaker 4: as well as one called the Pandora Star. The interesting
[1:16:10] Speaker 4: thing is how how these things came about, right the
[1:16:15] Speaker 4: way these technologies came about and what their original uses were.
[1:16:20] Speaker 4: And the person who originally created the angel lamp, this
[1:16:28] Speaker 4: is a technology that utilizes five lights, and this was
[1:16:33] Speaker 4: a basically channeled information according to the person that created it,
[1:16:39] Speaker 4: and they believed that it was angelic in nature. Now
[1:16:44] Speaker 4: the person who created I believe his name was Gary,
[1:16:47] Speaker 4: who created the Pandora Star consciousness light technology. It utilizes
[1:16:52] Speaker 4: twelve lights, and they also believe it was channeled information
[1:16:57] Speaker 4: or a download, and they believe that it was ET
[1:17:01] Speaker 4: or extra terrestrial technology. But it's super important not to
[1:17:05] Speaker 4: get mixed up in the in the wording, not to
[1:17:11] Speaker 4: get you know, mixed up in et versus alien. These
[1:17:17] Speaker 4: are all that this is. This is the this is
[1:17:21] Speaker 4: the muddy waters where people get confused. So I think
[1:17:24] Speaker 4: it's all the same thing.
[1:17:26] Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so the Pandora Star, could you tell us
[1:17:29] Speaker 1: a little bit about what this is.
[1:17:32] Speaker 4: Yeah. Again, it's a consciousness light technology which utilizes these
[1:17:38] Speaker 4: lights and a rhythm or frequency of flashing alongside other modalities.
[1:17:45] Speaker 4: Typically the user will utilize headphones and some sort of
[1:17:50] Speaker 4: audio gateway to kind of unlock the mind's eye, which
[1:17:57] Speaker 4: we're literally talking about the opinion land. If it's not,
[1:18:01] Speaker 4: if it's not too calcified. You know, if the user
[1:18:05] Speaker 4: doing the interface has a fairly open pennial gland, it's
[1:18:10] Speaker 4: not super calcified. You should be able to inherently invoke
[1:18:17] Speaker 4: an altered state of consciousness.
[1:18:19] Speaker 3: Hmm.
[1:18:21] Speaker 1: And as far as the god helmet, have you been
[1:18:24] Speaker 1: utilizing this and have you received any profound communication or
[1:18:29] Speaker 1: types of experiences.
[1:18:33] Speaker 4: Yeah, it is. It is. You know, it's not to
[1:18:39] Speaker 4: use the buzz light year thing, but I will. It's
[1:18:41] Speaker 4: like to infinity and beyond, like you can go into
[1:18:46] Speaker 4: into spots that were other in my opinion, unprecedented. So
[1:18:58] Speaker 4: from a research perspect I think it's vital. And like
[1:19:02] Speaker 4: I said, it's not a matter. You see a lot
[1:19:04] Speaker 4: of people and researchers in all types of research and
[1:19:10] Speaker 4: investigations which believe that it's all about poking the bear
[1:19:14] Speaker 4: or poking the hornet's nests, and I disagree. It's about
[1:19:17] Speaker 4: going in, going inside and getting a look at what's
[1:19:20] Speaker 4: going on in the inner workings, and only then will
[1:19:25] Speaker 4: you get the true answers. You know, what something appears
[1:19:29] Speaker 4: like from the outside may not be what that thing is.
[1:19:32] Speaker 4: Much like that that image I sent you of this
[1:19:36] Speaker 4: object hovering and observing this deep trance session and utilization
[1:19:43] Speaker 4: of some of these technologies we're discussing it is, you know,
[1:19:47] Speaker 4: from the outside, all we're seeing is it observing, and
[1:19:51] Speaker 4: it looks very alien, not to get caught up in
[1:19:53] Speaker 4: the semantics, but alien or different to us as human beings.
[1:19:57] Speaker 4: But on the other hand, we are just human beings,
[1:20:00] Speaker 4: so who are we to judge what it is based
[1:20:03] Speaker 4: on its appearance? Interesting?
[1:20:06] Speaker 1: Now you said you were also using resonance and frequency devices.
[1:20:11] Speaker 1: Are you utilizing what some may consider magic or occult
[1:20:16] Speaker 1: rituals in any way?
[1:20:18] Speaker 4: Oh? Absolutely, definitely for sure. And you know, I always
[1:20:26] Speaker 4: get the argument of like, oh, well, that's that's too taboo,
[1:20:30] Speaker 4: And my argument is, you know, technology is basically the
[1:20:34] Speaker 4: same thing, so right right, yeah, you got people using
[1:20:38] Speaker 4: things that you know, traditionally we have. The EVP is
[1:20:44] Speaker 4: a great example. You know, here we have someone utilizing
[1:20:48] Speaker 4: an audio recorder for lack of a better word. They
[1:20:52] Speaker 4: they grab their little audio recorder and they go out
[1:20:55] Speaker 4: in the field and they record something and they come
[1:21:00] Speaker 4: back home they didn't hear anything there. When they play
[1:21:03] Speaker 4: it back, they can hear things that they didn't hear
[1:21:05] Speaker 4: out in the field, and even that technique has been
[1:21:10] Speaker 4: somewhat attributed as being somewhat oc cult you know, like
[1:21:14] Speaker 4: it's kind of like listening to your to your heavy
[1:21:17] Speaker 4: metal music backwards or something. You know, it's it's like, oh, well,
[1:21:20] Speaker 4: you shouldn't be looking for it, because if you look
[1:21:22] Speaker 4: for it, you're going to find it. And you know,
[1:21:26] Speaker 4: so I make the argument that and any any technology
[1:21:32] Speaker 4: far advanced from our comprehension is going to appear as magic.
[1:21:35] Speaker 1: So now this, because we don't understand a lot of
[1:21:39] Speaker 1: what may be technology, it is probably smart to have
[1:21:45] Speaker 1: a level of spiritual protection when you're dealing with this
[1:21:49] Speaker 1: stuff as well, and a level of spiritual belief.
[1:21:52] Speaker 4: Right, Oh huge, man. I'm always I've always got the
[1:21:56] Speaker 4: Bible with me every time. And what I mean by
[1:22:00] Speaker 4: that is, and you know, the Bible is another tricky
[1:22:03] Speaker 4: you know, it's almost a technology in a way because
[1:22:06] Speaker 4: it too is sort of a codex. And I think
[1:22:08] Speaker 4: that we are, in fact dealing with things that we
[1:22:12] Speaker 4: don't understand. And in my personal opinion, we're dealing with
[1:22:16] Speaker 4: the yelloweem which is which is mentioned in the Bible,
[1:22:19] Speaker 4: which is God's with a small g If you go
[1:22:22] Speaker 4: to the Middle East, they have other names for them.
[1:22:25] Speaker 4: But we are dealing with things that are beyond our
[1:22:28] Speaker 4: comprehension from a magical perspective. And it is interesting to
[1:22:35] Speaker 4: me because there's a variety of infighting when it comes
[1:22:40] Speaker 4: to investigating and researching this phenomenon. You have those who
[1:22:45] Speaker 4: are quite literally poking the nest, you know, and monopolizing
[1:22:51] Speaker 4: or at least trademarking the very terms that it would
[1:22:57] Speaker 4: be like trademark trademarking the word god or something, you know,
[1:23:00] Speaker 4: for entertainment purposes. Yeah, the ultimate blasphemy. But at the
[1:23:05] Speaker 4: same time, if we are in fact dealing with what
[1:23:08] Speaker 4: I believe is a precognitive sentient intelligence, it is an
[1:23:12] Speaker 4: eloem or a god with a small g and this
[1:23:16] Speaker 4: is something that quite literally can change the game board
[1:23:20] Speaker 4: at any point. So when you have the mouse in
[1:23:25] Speaker 4: the maze, you know, poking at the horness nest, what
[1:23:28] Speaker 4: the mouse doesn't realize is the creator of the maze
[1:23:31] Speaker 4: or these these gods with a small g eloem. The
[1:23:35] Speaker 4: semantics is where everybody gets mixed up. But these entities,
[1:23:39] Speaker 4: for lack of a better word, that can stop space time,
[1:23:43] Speaker 4: go back and rearrange the pieces and put them back
[1:23:46] Speaker 4: together in a way that is formulated to their benefit.
[1:23:50] Speaker 4: There's no way that the mouse will ever figure out
[1:23:53] Speaker 4: what the game is or how the maze is constructed
[1:23:57] Speaker 4: when the creator of that maze is ultimately the and
[1:24:00] Speaker 4: with complete authority. So it is an interesting dynamic. But
[1:24:06] Speaker 4: I do believe that, yes, you have to be very
[1:24:09] Speaker 4: spiritually protected. I believe these are sacred lands and should
[1:24:13] Speaker 4: be treated as such. And yeah, you have to have
[1:24:18] Speaker 4: a certain amount of reverence when it comes to the area.
[1:24:22] Speaker 1: Yeah, man, and there's something you said. I believe we
[1:24:25] Speaker 1: discussed this a little bit before that this phenomenon seems
[1:24:28] Speaker 1: to be not just one or two steps ahead of
[1:24:32] Speaker 1: anything that researchers or experiences are doing, or even the
[1:24:36] Speaker 1: military industrial complex, but it seems to be five to
[1:24:40] Speaker 1: ten steps ahead, not only technologically, but as far as
[1:24:44] Speaker 1: the consciousness and the intelligence level of what we're interacting
[1:24:49] Speaker 1: with always seems to be ahead of those interacting with it.
[1:24:52] Speaker 2: Right one.
[1:24:55] Speaker 4: It is. It's literally so f are advanced. And in
[1:25:01] Speaker 4: my in my personal belief, uh, consciousness plays a huge
[1:25:07] Speaker 4: aspect when it comes to dealing with these entities because
[1:25:11] Speaker 4: they are very much creators of the area, creators of
[1:25:17] Speaker 4: the area they are roaming, and this is this area
[1:25:21] Speaker 4: in particular kind of lends itself due to past occult
[1:25:25] Speaker 4: magic and past rituals which have taken place there. Not
[1:25:30] Speaker 4: to go off off topic, but just the lore of
[1:25:35] Speaker 4: the area historically proves that it is somewhere where the
[1:25:40] Speaker 4: veil is just a little thinner than other places, which
[1:25:43] Speaker 4: allows them to come in and out with more frequency
[1:25:47] Speaker 4: and ease. And a really good explanation is it's a
[1:25:53] Speaker 4: landing place, it's a it's a it's a portal, it's
[1:25:56] Speaker 4: a gateway. It can be utilized as a spot in
[1:26:02] Speaker 4: ways that other places geographically cannot.
[1:26:05] Speaker 1: Now, there's something kind of disturbing that you mentioned that
[1:26:09] Speaker 1: there are some interests, some companies, some aerospace companies, some
[1:26:15] Speaker 1: military interests that may not necessarily have our best interests
[1:26:21] Speaker 1: or anyone's best interest in mind when it comes to
[1:26:24] Speaker 1: investigating this stuff, and it may be more of that
[1:26:28] Speaker 1: they are trying to discover and like you said, trademark
[1:26:32] Speaker 1: some of this paranormal activity so that they can be
[1:26:36] Speaker 1: the first ones to say they understand it or even
[1:26:40] Speaker 1: be able to interact and work with it. What do
[1:26:43] Speaker 1: you think about that?
[1:26:45] Speaker 4: Absolutely, and it is just human nature. Unfortunately, we are
[1:26:49] Speaker 4: all just humans, and it is very much in the
[1:26:55] Speaker 4: human agenda to try to weaponize anything. And therefore, when
[1:27:02] Speaker 4: you incorporate, as you said, the military industrial complex as
[1:27:07] Speaker 4: well as private captains of industry, people who are very
[1:27:13] Speaker 4: much able to and used to manipulating the material world
[1:27:19] Speaker 4: around them, they find no difference in an area such
[1:27:23] Speaker 4: as this. However, they quickly realize that although it can
[1:27:28] Speaker 4: be manipulated to some extent, at least from entertainment perspectives,
[1:27:33] Speaker 4: that the nuts and bolts of it are something that
[1:27:36] Speaker 4: as you said, it's always this precognitive sentient intelligence is
[1:27:41] Speaker 4: always multiple exponential steps ahead of them from an intelligence perspective,
[1:27:48] Speaker 4: So no matter how smart a human thinks they are,
[1:27:52] Speaker 4: that could actually be weaponized against them when they're in
[1:27:56] Speaker 4: the area. So yeah, there is unfortunately the need or want,
[1:28:03] Speaker 4: that human fault or condition where those in power tend
[1:28:09] Speaker 4: to gravitate towards wanting to weaponize anything that is seen
[1:28:14] Speaker 4: as a power greater than themselves. Unfortunately, it's not always
[1:28:19] Speaker 4: something that can be done, and the actual you know,
[1:28:22] Speaker 4: the tail of the Skinwalker is a perfect example of this.
[1:28:27] Speaker 1: Yeah, man, it seems like there are some levels of reality.
[1:28:30] Speaker 1: I think we even talked about this a little bit
[1:28:32] Speaker 1: that we're not supposed to understand because this stuff is
[1:28:36] Speaker 1: so advanced and it's always seems to be five to
[1:28:39] Speaker 1: ten steps ahead of anything that we even begin to
[1:28:41] Speaker 1: understand about it. It seems that there's a level that
[1:28:45] Speaker 1: we need to leave alone and let it be a mystery,
[1:28:48] Speaker 1: if you know what I mean.
[1:28:51] Speaker 4: Yep, it is the mystery is the magic, and I
[1:28:57] Speaker 4: think that as some have stated who came before me,
[1:29:01] Speaker 4: Frank Salisbury being one of them, and he's a University
[1:29:06] Speaker 4: of Utah professor and scientist who wrote The Utah Ufo Display,
[1:29:10] Speaker 4: one of my favorite book books on the subject, because
[1:29:14] Speaker 4: it explains how this energy, if you want to call it,
[1:29:20] Speaker 4: that will display itself to the observer when how and
[1:29:26] Speaker 4: if it wants to. It's not a matter of oh
[1:29:29] Speaker 4: I caught a glimpse of or hey we caught this,
[1:29:32] Speaker 4: or we whoa we hunted that. Now, these are things
[1:29:36] Speaker 4: that will display themselves to the user when how and
[1:29:41] Speaker 4: in a way they want to to what ends that
[1:29:46] Speaker 4: adds to the mystery. There is a reason, however, it's
[1:29:50] Speaker 4: it's still beyond us. I believe as humans.
[1:29:53] Speaker 1: That brings me to this little dilemma of the chicken
[1:29:57] Speaker 1: our egg scenario that seen to be permeating throughout the
[1:30:02] Speaker 1: conspiracy lands. There are some that believe that everything that
[1:30:06] Speaker 1: we're seeing out there, everything unexplained and paranormal, can actually
[1:30:11] Speaker 1: be explained by our military industrial complex doing these things
[1:30:15] Speaker 1: and making this activity happen. And the whole reason they
[1:30:20] Speaker 1: were out there is so that they could start to
[1:30:23] Speaker 1: use these experiments and begin to roll out some of
[1:30:27] Speaker 1: their understandings. And they are so advanced that they're already
[1:30:32] Speaker 1: fifty two one hundred years ahead of anything we could
[1:30:35] Speaker 1: understand that that area is just a perfect testing ground
[1:30:38] Speaker 1: for them. And there's some believe that all the paranormal
[1:30:41] Speaker 1: stuff we're seeing is some sort of black operation. Now
[1:30:45] Speaker 1: I don't buy that one bit, but I do think
[1:30:48] Speaker 1: some of what we're seeing is black operations for sure.
[1:30:52] Speaker 1: What do you think about that?
[1:30:55] Speaker 2: Really?
[1:30:55] Speaker 4: Well put, and yes, there are technologies that the powers
[1:31:03] Speaker 4: that be have which are far and away to the
[1:31:08] Speaker 4: regular layman or regular citizen, they would appear to be magic,
[1:31:13] Speaker 4: they would appear to be very much paranormal. However, in
[1:31:22] Speaker 4: the greater scheme of things, I think they are a
[1:31:25] Speaker 4: scratch in the surface of an everest sized Pandora's box
[1:31:33] Speaker 4: of paranormality, which is literally the reality that there are
[1:31:38] Speaker 4: entities and creatures which live among us and they have
[1:31:44] Speaker 4: the ability to literally not only manipulate the time space continuum,
[1:31:52] Speaker 4: but manipulate our observation of what it is we believe
[1:31:56] Speaker 4: and perceive that we see. So it's I feel that
[1:32:01] Speaker 4: it's like, you know, a first grader who's at the
[1:32:05] Speaker 4: top of his class thinking he understands a chess master
[1:32:10] Speaker 4: who has been here for millennia. Now.
[1:32:14] Speaker 1: Some believe that this is an overarching consciousness, that it
[1:32:18] Speaker 1: is one possibly fractalized entity that can manifest as multiple
[1:32:24] Speaker 1: different types of phenomena, and you mentioned that it can
[1:32:28] Speaker 1: alter our perception of reality. Do you think that that's
[1:32:31] Speaker 1: what it is. Is it's just one overarching consciousness or
[1:32:34] Speaker 1: are there different entities or beings with advanced consciousness abilities
[1:32:41] Speaker 1: that have the ability to alter our perception.
[1:32:45] Speaker 4: Such a great question, Chris. You always come with the
[1:32:48] Speaker 4: good dude, you always come with the heat.
[1:32:52] Speaker 2: I love that.
[1:32:53] Speaker 4: Yeah, such a great question because it brings us to
[1:32:59] Speaker 4: the question of and the prism of perception, which is
[1:33:03] Speaker 4: I think that many of these things from an observation perspective,
[1:33:07] Speaker 4: which were humans, and we observe this through our lens.
[1:33:10] Speaker 4: We see it fractally, so we see an aspect of
[1:33:16] Speaker 4: the prism, or we see a side of this, and
[1:33:21] Speaker 4: we immediately put it into one or two camps based
[1:33:24] Speaker 4: on our human need to have closures, so we put
[1:33:27] Speaker 4: it into is it one or is it many? Is it?
[1:33:34] Speaker 4: And it brings us back to the very word el oem,
[1:33:37] Speaker 4: you know, which comes from l the Creator God in
[1:33:40] Speaker 4: the Bible, and my favorite not to incorporate crazy scull
[1:33:46] Speaker 4: and bones jargon, but it's very true. Is Genesis three
[1:33:50] Speaker 4: twenty two. You know, many people know scull and bones
[1:33:52] Speaker 4: is the order of three two two, And it's what's
[1:33:56] Speaker 4: so funny is you know it's right at the beginning
[1:33:58] Speaker 4: of the Bible. And this is where I love. The
[1:34:00] Speaker 4: Bible scholars miss this. The Bible scholars constantly miss this,
[1:34:04] Speaker 4: and I don't want to mess it up, so I'm
[1:34:06] Speaker 4: going to read it right out. Yeah, right out of
[1:34:09] Speaker 4: the Bible. I think it's the best answer that I
[1:34:12] Speaker 4: can come up with, because it's not my answer. Let's
[1:34:16] Speaker 4: see we have now.
[1:34:18] Speaker 1: I was gonna say, it reminds me of the stories
[1:34:22] Speaker 1: you hear of the councils and groups of elites that
[1:34:26] Speaker 1: would get together and have these seances to channel a
[1:34:30] Speaker 1: group of interdimensional beings called the Nine. Those entities were
[1:34:35] Speaker 1: supposedly posing as gods throughout time, as Egyptian gods, as
[1:34:41] Speaker 1: a different as different deities that would appear to humanity
[1:34:45] Speaker 1: and alter humanity or lead humanity in certain directions throughout history.
[1:34:52] Speaker 1: That makes me think maybe these beings that are occupying
[1:34:55] Speaker 1: this area you said that they're Elohim, that could be
[1:34:58] Speaker 1: very interesting connection as well.
[1:35:00] Speaker 4: Well, yeah, so it's really strange. I love verbiage because,
[1:35:04] Speaker 4: as you know, I think language is magic, and just
[1:35:09] Speaker 4: the word eloeim eloem comes from the word l which
[1:35:14] Speaker 4: was the ancient, the most ancient at least from a
[1:35:17] Speaker 4: human perspective creator God that we've come across in documentation
[1:35:22] Speaker 4: of the subject matter. And it brings me back to
[1:35:27] Speaker 4: the Bible and three twenty two because I finally mustered
[1:35:30] Speaker 4: it up nice. It basically reads, and the Lord God said,
[1:35:36] Speaker 4: the man has now become like one of us, knowing
[1:35:38] Speaker 4: good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach
[1:35:41] Speaker 4: out his hand and take also from the tree of
[1:35:44] Speaker 4: life and eat and live forever. So the question is
[1:35:48] Speaker 4: one of us, who is he talking to? There's obviously
[1:35:51] Speaker 4: more than just him, and it almost sounds as if
[1:35:54] Speaker 4: he has like these minions or these these workers. And
[1:35:58] Speaker 4: the word L is so important e L because if
[1:36:02] Speaker 4: they are angels, it would make sense because all the
[1:36:05] Speaker 4: angels their names typically end with L E L. And
[1:36:10] Speaker 4: many of the demons as well. So it's a fascinating
[1:36:14] Speaker 4: aspect that we do have these creators, you know that,
[1:36:19] Speaker 4: you know, if you go word for word in the Bible,
[1:36:22] Speaker 4: and I don't like to delve into it because it's
[1:36:23] Speaker 4: a murky book, but it has there's a lot of
[1:36:27] Speaker 4: parts that have been left out, you know, and but
[1:36:30] Speaker 4: what is there are just tidbits of goodness. So I
[1:36:34] Speaker 4: think that it offers a really good, at least breadcrumb
[1:36:40] Speaker 4: trail for us to delve upon. And yeah, this is
[1:36:43] Speaker 4: a very fractal thing in its essence, and it brings
[1:36:46] Speaker 4: about universal consciousness because many argue, oh, you know, it's
[1:36:50] Speaker 4: a very new age, even though I hate that term,
[1:36:53] Speaker 4: belief that the term God is really just a universal
[1:36:57] Speaker 4: consciousness and that if that's the case, it brings us
[1:37:02] Speaker 4: to the same question, is it one or many, Well,
[1:37:06] Speaker 4: it depends on whether you're viewing that as a whole
[1:37:09] Speaker 4: or parts of the whole. That's like looking at a
[1:37:11] Speaker 4: human being and saying, is that one person or is
[1:37:14] Speaker 4: it just many organs working in symphony or many atoms
[1:37:18] Speaker 4: altogether vibrating at the same level or resonance. There's something
[1:37:22] Speaker 4: divine that is working together to make that human being
[1:37:28] Speaker 4: exists the way they are, you know, having the thoughts
[1:37:30] Speaker 4: they do, the trail of thoughts in a particular order,
[1:37:34] Speaker 4: and literally brings us back to what I believe is
[1:37:37] Speaker 4: the key, the consciousness, And it's, in my opinion, kind
[1:37:43] Speaker 4: of the the whole thing that it all revolves around
[1:37:48] Speaker 4: is the consciousness. You know, you could argue that consciousness
[1:37:53] Speaker 4: is that divine element.
[1:37:56] Speaker 1: That is so interesting that what we're dealing with could
[1:37:59] Speaker 1: be pure consciousness in a form that is manifesting itself
[1:38:05] Speaker 1: to us in certain ways, maybe trying to lead us
[1:38:07] Speaker 1: in certain directions. And it also brings me to there's
[1:38:11] Speaker 1: a lot of researchers and individuals that think that what
[1:38:14] Speaker 1: the energy that resides in that area is completely nefarious
[1:38:19] Speaker 1: and negative. But I see that there's a dualistic nature
[1:38:23] Speaker 1: to everything that's happening out there.
[1:38:24] Speaker 3: Now.
[1:38:25] Speaker 1: There are others that believe that all of this can
[1:38:29] Speaker 1: be attributed to something demonic like I said, and that
[1:38:34] Speaker 1: if you approach it with a prayer or the name
[1:38:37] Speaker 1: of Jesus Christ, that the phenomena will retreat and seem
[1:38:42] Speaker 1: to be affected by the prayer. What do you think
[1:38:46] Speaker 1: about that? Do you think that all of this phenomenon
[1:38:48] Speaker 1: is nefarious and that if we call out the name
[1:38:51] Speaker 1: of Jesus it'll go running because it is in a
[1:38:55] Speaker 1: way of the dark Or is it dualistic? Is it
[1:38:59] Speaker 1: a little bit of both. Does it have some sort
[1:39:02] Speaker 1: of trickster nature that it can utilize each side? What
[1:39:07] Speaker 1: do you think?
[1:39:10] Speaker 4: Great, great question, one hundred percent. You're hitting the nail
[1:39:16] Speaker 4: on the head. Very dualistic, because you need one with
[1:39:23] Speaker 4: without Without one, there can't be the other. Right without light,
[1:39:28] Speaker 4: there can't be darkness without the if you want to
[1:39:33] Speaker 4: call them the adversary or you know, the chaeton or
[1:39:37] Speaker 4: the you know, without without the darkness, there cannot be light,
[1:39:41] Speaker 4: and you would never you would never appreciate the light
[1:39:45] Speaker 4: without the darkness, which is why in many vision quests,
[1:39:49] Speaker 4: at least as human beings, we don't appreciate what we
[1:39:51] Speaker 4: have until it's taken from us. And so I would
[1:39:56] Speaker 4: argue that instead of putting yourself in one of these
[1:40:02] Speaker 4: two camps and saying, you know, it's it's all one
[1:40:06] Speaker 4: hundred percent evil for lack of a better word, or
[1:40:12] Speaker 4: it's all one hundred percent are happy space brothers, that
[1:40:18] Speaker 4: it is. It's it's much It's much like the issues
[1:40:23] Speaker 4: we see with not only the angels. I mean, if
[1:40:25] Speaker 4: you look at some of the angelic charts, some of
[1:40:29] Speaker 4: these angels are sort of they're like double spies. They're
[1:40:34] Speaker 4: on both lists. Yeah, and and you know, I find
[1:40:39] Speaker 4: that very interesting that some of these are on both lists.
[1:40:43] Speaker 4: And of course you have, you know, the more gnostic
[1:40:45] Speaker 4: belief of the demiurge or you know, more recently we
[1:40:50] Speaker 4: have the Baphomet, which I think is a great, great
[1:40:54] Speaker 4: image because it has characteristics from both the dark and light,
[1:41:01] Speaker 4: and you know, the knowledge at its center, and I
[1:41:03] Speaker 4: think that's kind of a the important thing that a
[1:41:06] Speaker 4: lot of people are missing is everything does not have
[1:41:09] Speaker 4: to be one hundred percent one thing or one hundred
[1:41:11] Speaker 4: percent another, and that the nuance of the middle is
[1:41:16] Speaker 4: really where the magic takes place.
[1:41:18] Speaker 1: That also made me think of the possibility of there
[1:41:21] Speaker 1: being a spectrum of consciousness or even a spectrum of
[1:41:24] Speaker 1: life just beyond our perception, like from everything to an amiba,
[1:41:31] Speaker 1: to your mammals and animals and fish to humanoid and
[1:41:38] Speaker 1: beyond type of beings. It also makes me think of
[1:41:41] Speaker 1: the guests that I had a couple of years ago
[1:41:43] Speaker 1: who will be back on next month. Very much looking
[1:41:46] Speaker 1: forward to Nick Hayes coming back. He is a photographer
[1:41:49] Speaker 1: that has figured out how to adjust different types of
[1:41:54] Speaker 1: infrared and spectrum lenses to be able to see these
[1:41:59] Speaker 1: creatures that lie just beyond our perception in the sky
[1:42:02] Speaker 1: that he's taken photos of. And he's taken incredible photos
[1:42:06] Speaker 1: of everything that looks like craft, from organic to even
[1:42:10] Speaker 1: nuts and bolt craft, to things that look like fish
[1:42:13] Speaker 1: and whales and strange animals and entities in the sky
[1:42:18] Speaker 1: that are massive but seem to be some sort of
[1:42:22] Speaker 1: life form. So I believe that there is probably, just
[1:42:26] Speaker 1: like I was saying, a whole spectrum of life beyond
[1:42:29] Speaker 1: what we can perceive.
[1:42:31] Speaker 4: Yes, one hundred percent, I think I have come across
[1:42:35] Speaker 4: his work. I think it's really interesting, and I think
[1:42:38] Speaker 4: that there is historic evidence of this you know, there
[1:42:43] Speaker 4: was a magical time when people like you and I
[1:42:47] Speaker 4: and others could if you had the funds and the
[1:42:51] Speaker 4: money to do it, you could actually create your own
[1:42:54] Speaker 4: airship and go up. And this was kind of a
[1:42:57] Speaker 4: popular thing before golf courses. You know, the these wealthy
[1:43:00] Speaker 4: guys would get together on the weekend and go up
[1:43:02] Speaker 4: in their airships and they would see what can only
[1:43:09] Speaker 4: be described as plasma biological entities in our skies and
[1:43:14] Speaker 4: they describe these And so I love what Nick's doing.
[1:43:19] Speaker 4: I think there's some truth to that, that there's some
[1:43:21] Speaker 4: meeting of the minds there, because depending on your view
[1:43:25] Speaker 4: or perspective and lenses do that obviously? You know, if
[1:43:30] Speaker 4: you are if you're fishing, for example, and you don't
[1:43:34] Speaker 4: have polarized fishing glasses, you can't see the fish in
[1:43:37] Speaker 4: the water. All you see is the glare. And I
[1:43:40] Speaker 4: think it's like that when it comes to this phenomenon.
[1:43:43] Speaker 1: Do you think this is what we're interacting with and
[1:43:46] Speaker 1: these realms that we were just discussing is also what
[1:43:51] Speaker 1: we experience after death? Do we become a part of
[1:43:55] Speaker 1: this consciousness in these realms after death? What do you
[1:43:59] Speaker 1: think about that?
[1:44:01] Speaker 4: That's a really good question, and I really like how
[1:44:05] Speaker 4: the consciousness studies are delving into experiences after death, because
[1:44:12] Speaker 4: this is sort of that other line in the sand
[1:44:15] Speaker 4: that many people don't want to get close to or
[1:44:20] Speaker 4: you know, look into. And it may not be an
[1:44:26] Speaker 4: ending at all, like death might not be an end
[1:44:29] Speaker 4: as we view it, again, as human beings at all.
[1:44:33] Speaker 4: It may just be a transitionary period where you move
[1:44:36] Speaker 4: from one consciousness to another, or you may actually be
[1:44:40] Speaker 4: able to kind of level up in a way, you know,
[1:44:46] Speaker 4: and become a more divine creature and maybe closer to
[1:44:50] Speaker 4: the things that we are actually observing.
[1:44:53] Speaker 1: Do you think that what we understand as these skin
[1:44:57] Speaker 1: walker entities or even extra terrestrial is this consciousness that
[1:45:02] Speaker 1: has the ability to manifest itself into something physical.
[1:45:09] Speaker 4: Absolutely, And it's it brings uh, it brings up so many,
[1:45:15] Speaker 4: so many directions we could take this, but yeah, it uh,
[1:45:20] Speaker 4: one could manifest itself in something physical, and I believe does.
[1:45:25] Speaker 1: Now could you give I'd love to hear some examp
[1:45:27] Speaker 1: because I know you've had some physical manifestations that you've encountered.
[1:45:31] Speaker 1: Could you give us some examples of that?
[1:45:33] Speaker 2: Sure?
[1:45:34] Speaker 4: And it's not just myself. I have I am a
[1:45:37] Speaker 4: bit of an experiencer. I've seen quite a bit of things,
[1:45:41] Speaker 4: and some are stranger than others. I've seen things coalesque
[1:45:47] Speaker 4: out of out of these small almost like nanoparticulates into
[1:45:51] Speaker 4: entities that were one percent solid appearing. They seemed very real,
[1:45:57] Speaker 4: and then they were able to de manifest almost as
[1:46:00] Speaker 4: quickly as they manifested. Others have seen these things as well.
[1:46:04] Speaker 4: One particular gentleman, Rich Oliver, who's no longer with us,
[1:46:08] Speaker 4: he had some amazing experiences with some others. April Slaughter
[1:46:13] Speaker 4: excuse me, has done some presentations on this, but he is.
[1:46:19] Speaker 4: He was a very large guy, and he was approached
[1:46:29] Speaker 4: just actually he was at space Wolf Research coincidentally, but
[1:46:34] Speaker 4: he was approached by an entity that, for lack of
[1:46:39] Speaker 4: a better word, seemed to have what he described as
[1:46:42] Speaker 4: bugs flying in and out of it, or it was
[1:46:45] Speaker 4: made up of smaller particulates, and he drew an image
[1:46:51] Speaker 4: of it.
[1:46:51] Speaker 2: It's very.
[1:46:54] Speaker 4: Wild looking, very futuristic, very alien looking, something that you
[1:46:58] Speaker 4: would one hundred percent say was not of this world.
[1:47:03] Speaker 4: But that's just what he saw. It grabbed him from
[1:47:07] Speaker 4: his throat, It lifted him off the ground a few
[1:47:09] Speaker 4: feet and as I said, this guy was a beast
[1:47:12] Speaker 4: of a man, a really big guy. So it just
[1:47:16] Speaker 4: goes to show that it's not the it's not the
[1:47:19] Speaker 4: size of the entities involved, it's the number of entities
[1:47:23] Speaker 4: and how they work in unison.
[1:47:26] Speaker 1: Now, this can also mimic animals and from what I understand,
[1:47:32] Speaker 1: scenery and rocks and landscape. But there are times when
[1:47:37] Speaker 1: it is in the process of trying to mimic one
[1:47:40] Speaker 1: of these animals where it doesn't get it quite right
[1:47:43] Speaker 1: and it's like ai R. It gives it an extra
[1:47:45] Speaker 1: leg or something weird that don't normally doesn't incur in nature.
[1:47:49] Speaker 1: Is that right?
[1:47:52] Speaker 4: There are examples of this and they're frequent. The the
[1:48:02] Speaker 4: the Curse of the skin Walker as they call it,
[1:48:04] Speaker 4: this Native American curse, which was placed on the Ute
[1:48:08] Speaker 4: by the Navajo because of the Ute working with the
[1:48:11] Speaker 4: US military and kind of finding out this amazing place
[1:48:15] Speaker 4: where the Navajo were camped and basically, yeah, it was
[1:48:20] Speaker 4: war it was ugly, but this curse enabled this entity
[1:48:25] Speaker 4: that they call the skin Walker, which is very much
[1:48:28] Speaker 4: as you're saying, as shapeshifter not to say that there's
[1:48:31] Speaker 4: not other dimensional entities in the area as well, which
[1:48:34] Speaker 4: can do the same thing, and not to say that
[1:48:37] Speaker 4: there isn't military technology that can do the same thing.
[1:48:40] Speaker 4: At this point, however, it brings us back to what
[1:48:44] Speaker 4: initially brought the military industrial complex to study this in
[1:48:48] Speaker 4: the first place, which is the ability to sort of
[1:48:54] Speaker 4: manifest into something you are not and get behind enemy lines,
[1:48:59] Speaker 4: so to speak, or observe something in a way where
[1:49:04] Speaker 4: it's conducive to the background or the nature something you
[1:49:08] Speaker 4: would not normally see. And in Native American Lord, this
[1:49:12] Speaker 4: is very common. I have spoken with a lot of
[1:49:14] Speaker 4: my Native friends and natives in hotspot areas or areas
[1:49:19] Speaker 4: where both the magical and other tendencies of these dimensional aspects,
[1:49:26] Speaker 4: the shape shifting, if you want to call it, that
[1:49:28] Speaker 4: take place, and you'll be having a conversation and let's say,
[1:49:33] Speaker 4: something as simple as a crow or two will appear.
[1:49:36] Speaker 4: They'll say, hey, let's hold off on this conversation and
[1:49:38] Speaker 4: pick it up later when these animals go away, And
[1:49:43] Speaker 4: it just goes to show that they are very conscious
[1:49:49] Speaker 4: of their surroundings and the ability for entities and intelligences
[1:49:55] Speaker 4: to manifest themselves in things that you or I would
[1:49:58] Speaker 4: most likely take as being very mundane.
[1:50:03] Speaker 1: I also wonder about the aspect of our reality that
[1:50:06] Speaker 1: some believe may be programmable or I hate to say
[1:50:12] Speaker 1: simulation because it's an oversimplification, I believe, but this holographic
[1:50:17] Speaker 1: reality may be programmable in some ways. You were saying
[1:50:20] Speaker 1: the entities that looked like little nanobots, Well, that does
[1:50:24] Speaker 1: that indicate a sort of technology to it? And whenever
[1:50:28] Speaker 1: you are applying rituals and magic to get a certain
[1:50:33] Speaker 1: reaction from some of this energy or these entities, is
[1:50:37] Speaker 1: that not a form of kind of programming reality.
[1:50:42] Speaker 4: Yeah, And it brings us a great question around you
[1:50:46] Speaker 4: all bring the goods. It brings us to both the
[1:50:50] Speaker 4: esoteric and the super high tech exotic technologies that you're discussing.
[1:50:56] Speaker 4: In the esoteric you often see in Masonic lige, in
[1:51:01] Speaker 4: other ancient mystery school religions, etc. You see the floors
[1:51:05] Speaker 4: with the black and white checkerboard, and it's very similar
[1:51:10] Speaker 4: because that is how movement takes place, is you have
[1:51:15] Speaker 4: the opposing factions. So in technology you have the ones
[1:51:20] Speaker 4: and zeros, right the code and again you have the
[1:51:24] Speaker 4: nothing and the something, and it's much like the black
[1:51:26] Speaker 4: and white tiles. You have to utilize and as you said,
[1:51:30] Speaker 4: arrange these in specific ways to move about in our matrix,
[1:51:34] Speaker 4: in our reality. If you don't, it just doesn't work.
[1:51:38] Speaker 4: So there is somewhat of a manipulation of the positive
[1:51:43] Speaker 4: and the negative, or the absence and the presence to
[1:51:47] Speaker 4: make these things happen. I don't know if that's a
[1:51:49] Speaker 4: good answer.
[1:51:50] Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that we can manifest our reality probably
[1:51:56] Speaker 1: just as well as this overarching consciousness or extraterrestrial consciousness,
[1:52:02] Speaker 1: or even if you want to call it elo Him.
[1:52:04] Speaker 1: We most likely are a part of this. This energy
[1:52:08] Speaker 1: is probably a part of us, and we can most
[1:52:11] Speaker 1: likely utilize a lot of the abilities and if you
[1:52:15] Speaker 1: want to call it spiritual technology that these beings appear
[1:52:18] Speaker 1: to have. I think our ancient ancestors were capable of
[1:52:23] Speaker 1: a lot of this phenomena, especially when it comes to
[1:52:27] Speaker 1: psi phenomena, telekinesis, ability to affect matter, psychic phenomena, all
[1:52:33] Speaker 1: these things are a part of this, and I think
[1:52:36] Speaker 1: that's a big reason why our military industrial complex is
[1:52:41] Speaker 1: very interested in this, in getting ahead of being able
[1:52:45] Speaker 1: to weaponize. Of course, a lot of these abilities in technology,
[1:52:49] Speaker 1: but I think that we naturally had the ability to
[1:52:52] Speaker 1: do this if we weren't bombarded with chemicals and frequencies
[1:52:56] Speaker 1: and dumbed down like we have been. Maybe we could
[1:52:59] Speaker 1: have a better understand.
[1:53:02] Speaker 4: Yeah, so well said. So well said, instead of being
[1:53:07] Speaker 4: bombarded with Wi Fi all the time and having to
[1:53:10] Speaker 4: look up the answer, how about not having the Wi
[1:53:14] Speaker 4: Fi around you all the time and basically knowing the answer.
[1:53:18] Speaker 4: It's very well said, and I one hundred percent agree.
[1:53:22] Speaker 4: I had someone say something to me that kind of
[1:53:25] Speaker 4: struck me, and he explained it as you know, the
[1:53:29] Speaker 4: CEO of the corporation gets all of the fame or
[1:53:35] Speaker 4: you know, as doing things, when in reality, these these
[1:53:39] Speaker 4: wealthy individuals have a guy for everything. So the CEO,
[1:53:44] Speaker 4: if you see it as a singular entity or a business,
[1:53:47] Speaker 4: the business gets the credit. But there's a variety of people.
[1:53:50] Speaker 4: These these successful individuals have a guy for everything. So
[1:53:54] Speaker 4: if they run into a problem, they have that person
[1:53:56] Speaker 4: deal with it and then report back. And it's very
[1:54:00] Speaker 4: very much like God and the yeloem. You know, I'm
[1:54:02] Speaker 4: sure that el the creator, God or God if you
[1:54:06] Speaker 4: want to use that terminology, or the universal consciousness whatever
[1:54:10] Speaker 4: people are most comfortable using, you know, to describe consciousness
[1:54:15] Speaker 4: and a power greater than ourselves. I'm pretty sure that, Yeah,
[1:54:19] Speaker 4: if there's a hierarchy of these things, there's most likely
[1:54:22] Speaker 4: experts in every arena.
[1:54:24] Speaker 1: I had Tony Merkle on recently and we were discussing
[1:54:29] Speaker 1: the phenomena of dogmen and bigfoot for the things that
[1:54:33] Speaker 1: are going into my documentary. And you've probably heard the
[1:54:37] Speaker 1: story of the gentleman who travels into these underworld realms
[1:54:40] Speaker 1: and they had a book about him and he would
[1:54:42] Speaker 1: speak to amazing entities like dogmen and bigfoot, and based
[1:54:49] Speaker 1: on the information that he was given by these entities
[1:54:52] Speaker 1: that they are all forms of shape shifters. They can
[1:54:55] Speaker 1: all shape shift into whatever types of these crypt did
[1:55:00] Speaker 1: like beings that they want to, and that would make
[1:55:02] Speaker 1: sense with a lot of the phenomena that we understand
[1:55:05] Speaker 1: as bigfoot or dogmen because of the accounts of people
[1:55:09] Speaker 1: that have seen Bigfoot with a dog man snout or
[1:55:13] Speaker 1: dog man that's kind of halfway shape shifted into a
[1:55:16] Speaker 1: Bigfoot and vice versa. These things seem to be very
[1:55:21] Speaker 1: malleable and can just shape into anything they want at will.
[1:55:28] Speaker 4: Yeah, I find that fascinating in the human tradition and
[1:55:31] Speaker 4: our history that almost every culture has examples of what
[1:55:35] Speaker 4: you're talking about. You know, we have Annibus in Egypt
[1:55:40] Speaker 4: and ancient Egypt literally a dog headed man, and we
[1:55:45] Speaker 4: have other examples as well. But it goes to show
[1:55:50] Speaker 4: that to be able to manipulate, it's a, I guess,
[1:55:56] Speaker 4: a way to kind of show your power. If if
[1:56:00] Speaker 4: you are literally able to become something and manifest into
[1:56:05] Speaker 4: something and not only be that, but change into something
[1:56:08] Speaker 4: else directly within view of the observer, that is quite
[1:56:14] Speaker 4: literally the demigod technology, if you want to call that that.
[1:56:18] Speaker 4: That's kind of like to even the playing field, so
[1:56:21] Speaker 4: to speak. It's it's pretty mind blowing to see something
[1:56:25] Speaker 4: that can change from one thing into another, and it's
[1:56:28] Speaker 4: just crazy how long these things have happened, and you know,
[1:56:32] Speaker 4: it most likely goes back all the way to the
[1:56:35] Speaker 4: Sumerians Anunaki and probably before then.
[1:56:38] Speaker 1: This may even provide answers to people's profound contact experiences
[1:56:43] Speaker 1: with what they understands extraterrestrials when they're given this information
[1:56:48] Speaker 1: about not only how to better their own lives and
[1:56:52] Speaker 1: different spiritual aspects, but occult information information on how to
[1:56:57] Speaker 1: manipulate reality and have a better understanding of our existence here.
[1:57:01] Speaker 1: And people are having these experiences every day, and they're
[1:57:05] Speaker 1: they're attributing him to being abducted by aliens. What if
[1:57:08] Speaker 1: it's just this consciousness interacting with us to try and
[1:57:12] Speaker 1: evolve us in some way.
[1:57:15] Speaker 4: Yes, Oh my gosh, this brings this busts the barn
[1:57:19] Speaker 4: door open to a whole other discussion because oftentimes individuals
[1:57:25] Speaker 4: are not willing to do the little things to kind
[1:57:28] Speaker 4: of incrementally level up, and there may become times where
[1:57:36] Speaker 4: windows of opportunity allow themselves for these people to be
[1:57:40] Speaker 4: kind of urged, nudged, helped along the way, and these
[1:57:45] Speaker 4: may be observed as abduction case scenarios, huge monumental you know,
[1:57:52] Speaker 4: shifts in the paradigm for them, where in reality it
[1:57:56] Speaker 4: is just you know, it's just time for them iPhone
[1:58:00] Speaker 4: to update and you haven't done it for a long time.
[1:58:03] Speaker 4: You don't get that update button often, and you know,
[1:58:07] Speaker 4: they may have to just take that iPhone from your
[1:58:11] Speaker 4: hands and update it for you. And it really is
[1:58:16] Speaker 4: important to clarify that it's the little things in both
[1:58:20] Speaker 4: technology and magic that make the difference. You know, you
[1:58:24] Speaker 4: often hear that the devil is in the details, and
[1:58:27] Speaker 4: if you watch shaman or people involved with heavy deep ritual.
[1:58:32] Speaker 4: You will see that they can let a lot of
[1:58:33] Speaker 4: things go, but it's the little things that become very important.
[1:58:39] Speaker 4: And you know, for obvious reasons. And one shaman in
[1:58:45] Speaker 4: the Gobi Desert where they have sandstorms often, you know,
[1:58:49] Speaker 4: he would go around and check the yurt to make
[1:58:53] Speaker 4: sure that there were no pin sized holes in the yurt,
[1:58:58] Speaker 4: because if there's even so much as a pin sized
[1:59:00] Speaker 4: hole in a sandstorm comes, it can not only kill
[1:59:03] Speaker 4: everybody inside the yurt, but just derail the whole scenario.
[1:59:09] Speaker 4: And yet from an outside perspective, this seems like very menial,
[1:59:13] Speaker 4: small stuff that doesn't matter, And I think that that's
[1:59:15] Speaker 4: a good way to see it.
[1:59:17] Speaker 1: What's your plans for the future. Is there anything that
[1:59:19] Speaker 1: you're able to tell us about that you will be
[1:59:21] Speaker 1: working on.
[1:59:22] Speaker 4: Sure, there's little things, there's big things. Let's see there
[1:59:29] Speaker 4: is more of the same. It's something that I find
[1:59:34] Speaker 4: very intriguing, and I know that there is there's more
[1:59:40] Speaker 4: to be found. We're by no means, you know, having
[1:59:44] Speaker 4: all the answers in any way, shape or form. But
[1:59:46] Speaker 4: I just think that the consciousness aspect is going to
[1:59:50] Speaker 4: prove to be very useful and helpful. One of my
[1:59:56] Speaker 4: research partners and affiliates is going to be a contact
[2:00:00] Speaker 4: in the desert, and I think I will be out
[2:00:04] Speaker 4: there as well, maybe the second third, and I think
[2:00:06] Speaker 4: I have to leave the fourth, but I should be
[2:00:09] Speaker 4: out there. If people are at Contact in the desert,
[2:00:12] Speaker 4: keep an eye out for us, and we will most
[2:00:15] Speaker 4: likely have some of these technologies and modalities there available
[2:00:18] Speaker 4: for actual use. So if anybody wants to use some
[2:00:21] Speaker 4: of these things, I won't. I'm not going to go
[2:00:24] Speaker 4: ahead and promote this stuff because it's not up to me.
[2:00:29] Speaker 4: But if somebody is interested or finds himself drawn to
[2:00:34] Speaker 4: this type of thing, look around at Contact. If you
[2:00:37] Speaker 4: see me, say hi and yeah, right.
[2:00:40] Speaker 1: On, let's close on this. Have you had any recent
[2:00:44] Speaker 1: or really memorable experiences with what you would understand as
[2:00:49] Speaker 1: men in black or parties that are very interested in
[2:00:53] Speaker 1: what you're doing and you have no way to verify
[2:00:57] Speaker 1: who were what they were.
[2:00:59] Speaker 4: Yes, and amazingly, I've even had the blessing the benefit
[2:01:07] Speaker 4: of meeting some of these people afterwards in some cases.
[2:01:12] Speaker 4: And you know what seems again back to the dualistic
[2:01:15] Speaker 4: nature of this, what seem very ominous and horrifically freaky
[2:01:21] Speaker 4: when you're being observed by someone in the dark or
[2:01:25] Speaker 4: men in black scenario, and later on you meet them
[2:01:29] Speaker 4: and they explain why they were doing what they were doing.
[2:01:31] Speaker 4: It all makes perfect sense. But yeah, there are the
[2:01:35] Speaker 4: men in black thing is a very real thing. There
[2:01:37] Speaker 4: are shadow groups that in some cases even surpass government knowledge,
[2:01:46] Speaker 4: and they have missions and things they're doing for good
[2:01:50] Speaker 4: reason and for bad reasons. And a friend of mine
[2:01:55] Speaker 4: who is a police dog trainer, the way he explained
[2:01:59] Speaker 4: it is, you know, it may seem very scary, but
[2:02:02] Speaker 4: when I'm in the field, darkness is my friend.
[2:02:06] Speaker 1: Are you concerned at all that there could be a
[2:02:11] Speaker 1: way of tipping these scales when it comes to the
[2:02:15] Speaker 1: dualistic nature of this phenomena, especially the more that nefarious
[2:02:20] Speaker 1: companies and interests are experimenting with this stuff and focusing
[2:02:26] Speaker 1: on the darker side of it, Are you concerned that
[2:02:28] Speaker 1: that could have an effect in our reality?
[2:02:32] Speaker 2: Oh?
[2:02:32] Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, and I think it has. It's unfortunate, it
[2:02:36] Speaker 4: really is. We see it every day if you look
[2:02:38] Speaker 4: for it. There are those nefarious aspects and they're usually
[2:02:43] Speaker 4: not portrayed that way to us. However, I like to
[2:02:49] Speaker 4: go back to, you know, the ancient human experiences and
[2:02:54] Speaker 4: explanations that esoteric masters would give. For example, and you
[2:03:00] Speaker 4: know you're most you are of most value in the middle,
[2:03:04] Speaker 4: because that is where the stability is, that's the stable ground.
[2:03:08] Speaker 4: And there is a saying in sorcery that you know,
[2:03:13] Speaker 4: if you've sold your soul to the devil, he no
[2:03:15] Speaker 4: longer needs anything from you. And if you're all the
[2:03:19] Speaker 4: way on the other end, then they know where you're at.
[2:03:21] Speaker 4: But if you're somewhere in the middle, then you're of
[2:03:24] Speaker 4: use to both camps, and you're actually the fabric that
[2:03:26] Speaker 4: holds this world together. And I think that's kind of
[2:03:29] Speaker 4: the truth.
[2:03:30] Speaker 1: I'm probably of a very strong belief that what we
[2:03:34] Speaker 1: understand as the most powerful leaders or globalist elitists, the
[2:03:40] Speaker 1: ones that we don't even know their name, the most
[2:03:42] Speaker 1: powerful people that are pulling strings that will never know
[2:03:46] Speaker 1: who they are, that they at least believe that they
[2:03:50] Speaker 1: have contact with this consciousness and are interacting with it
[2:03:55] Speaker 1: for the better or greater good of the planet. These
[2:04:00] Speaker 1: hoops believe that it's for the greater good of the planet,
[2:04:02] Speaker 1: but what they're really interacting with is something that is
[2:04:07] Speaker 1: it only has its best interest in mind. Doesn't have
[2:04:11] Speaker 1: any of humanity's best interests in mind, and it's basically
[2:04:14] Speaker 1: using these very powerful people at the top to put
[2:04:19] Speaker 1: forward its own agenda, if you know what I mean.
[2:04:22] Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, I agree one hundred percent with that.
[2:04:27] Speaker 4: If if you are only after power, you will be
[2:04:31] Speaker 4: drawn to unfortunately, entities that are only after power, and
[2:04:37] Speaker 4: that has a very dark, negative connotation, and eventually you
[2:04:41] Speaker 4: see it all the time. Yet you will quite literally
[2:04:44] Speaker 4: be possessed not only by materialism but also by the
[2:04:47] Speaker 4: powers that govern that belief system. And yeah, that has
[2:04:53] Speaker 4: a very dark, very dark association with it. So it's
[2:04:57] Speaker 4: important to kind of live life in a more loose
[2:05:01] Speaker 4: and comfortable way.
[2:05:02] Speaker 1: I'm I'm of the hopes that whatever this consciousness is,
[2:05:06] Speaker 1: whatever this energy is, that it will always stay ahead
[2:05:11] Speaker 1: of what we're of everything we're trying to do, and
[2:05:14] Speaker 1: will maintain a level of balance. Naturally, it seems that
[2:05:19] Speaker 1: it always has on some level.
[2:05:22] Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I think, I think so. I think so.
[2:05:25] Speaker 4: I believe that having that ability to see things for
[2:05:31] Speaker 4: what they are, keep that pineal gland nice and clean
[2:05:35] Speaker 4: and uh, you know, not be not be so drawn
[2:05:38] Speaker 4: into these formulations of control and unfortunately a lot of
[2:05:43] Speaker 4: these are things that we all you know do. It's
[2:05:46] Speaker 4: like watching TV entertaining yourself with things that are probably
[2:05:52] Speaker 4: not the best uh for for the human experience, and
[2:05:57] Speaker 4: they're addicting. Anything that's addicting is probably be a bad thing.
[2:06:02] Speaker 1: Right on, Ryan, this is amazing information. Always love when
[2:06:06] Speaker 1: you come on. Let the audience know where they can
[2:06:09] Speaker 1: find your podcast and anything else you got going on.
[2:06:13] Speaker 4: Sure, the podcast is a smaller podcast. You can find
[2:06:17] Speaker 4: it at hero Paranormal dot com or on Patreon just
[2:06:21] Speaker 4: look for hero Paranormal. You can also subscribe to it
[2:06:25] Speaker 4: on YouTube like some subscribe Subscribe clicks help because it
[2:06:30] Speaker 4: is smaller and you can kind of keep up with
[2:06:34] Speaker 4: what's taking place in the Una basin of Utah by
[2:06:37] Speaker 4: going to your social media and looking for space Wolf
[2:06:40] Speaker 4: Research or you can go to spacewolfresearch dot com as well.
[2:06:45] Speaker 1: Excellent, Ryan, this was fun as usual. We'll do it
[2:06:48] Speaker 1: again soon.
[2:06:50] Speaker 4: Sounds great, Chris, Thanks so much for having me on.
[2:06:52] Speaker 1: Until next time, everyone, have an excellent evening. We'll talk
[2:06:55] Speaker 1: again tomorrow. We'll see y'allt inn. If you're looking to
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