# Citizen D | It Can't Be People! Voices From the Inner Circle, What is Really Making Crop Circles?

An episode of [Forbidden Knowledge News](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1470192028), 7 Sep 2026, 1 h 03 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/74978198/fknepisodescitd_hd_720p_medium_fr30_07092026.mp3

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## Transcript

[0:02] Speaker 1: I think it's just going to get weirder and weirder
[0:04] Speaker 1: and weirder. And finally, it's going to be so weird
[0:08] Speaker 1: that people are going to have to talk about how
[0:10] Speaker 1: weird it is. Welcome back to Forbidden Knowledge News. I'm
[0:14] Speaker 1: your host, Chris Matthew. Today, my guest is Citizen D.
[0:18] Speaker 1: Check out our new updated website. The Forbidden Knowledge Network
[0:22] Speaker 1: is available there. Some wonderful podcasts that we feature. We've
[0:26] Speaker 1: got links to our merch shop as well. We've got
[0:30] Speaker 1: great shirt designs. Go check that out. We've got hoodies,
[0:33] Speaker 1: shirts from the films. We have a link for that
[0:36] Speaker 1: right in the description as well. Watch my films, Occult
[0:39] Speaker 1: Louisiana's on Tubi, Doors of Perception on Amazon Prime. I
[0:43] Speaker 1: am booking guests for October. If you have suggestions or
[0:46] Speaker 1: you'd like to be a guest, email me, forbiddenknowledgenews at gmail.com.
[0:51] Speaker 1: Today I want to welcome Citizen D. He is a
[0:54] Speaker 1: retired crop circle maker. Fortean journalist and author of six
[0:58] Speaker 1: acclaimed books. Citizen D, welcome.
[1:01] Speaker 2: How you doing? I'm really good, my friend. How are you?
[1:05] Speaker 1: I'm excellent, man. It is great to have you on.
[1:08] Speaker 1: Very much looking forward to this. You're presenting a very
[1:11] Speaker 1: interesting topic today based on not only your personal experiences
[1:16] Speaker 1: in research, but many other interviews you've done. This is
[1:19] Speaker 1: covered in your book, It Can't Be People, Voices from
[1:22] Speaker 1: the Inner Circle. which explores the phenomena of crop circles,
[1:27] Speaker 1: specifically the possibility not only that it's humans creating them,
[1:31] Speaker 1: but they may be guided by some profound supernatural events,
[1:36] Speaker 1: maybe some psychic coercion that leads to a compulsion to
[1:41] Speaker 1: create crop circles. And this is based on your own
[1:45] Speaker 1: personal experiences, like I said, as well as many interviews
[1:48] Speaker 1: you've done about the phenomena. We're really stoked to get
[1:51] Speaker 1: into this. Before we do, this is your first time on.
[1:54] Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about yourself and let the
[1:56] Speaker 1: audience know how they can find more.
[1:59] Speaker 2: Cool. Yeah, that's a very succinct introduction. It's brilliant. Yeah,
[2:05] Speaker 2: the book is It Can't Be People, Voices from the
[2:10] Speaker 2: Inner Circle. And the reason why I've chosen to use
[2:15] Speaker 2: a pseudonym for this, Citizen D, is really, really, it's prosaic.
[2:21] Speaker 2: The first reason is that I'm a journalist and an
[2:25] Speaker 2: author by trade, and I wanted to try and segregate
[2:29] Speaker 2: this away from the other work that I do, because
[2:31] Speaker 2: obviously there's conflicts there where I write about specialist areas,
[2:36] Speaker 2: and I wanted to try and segregate this away. Also...
[2:42] Speaker 2: people say, well, crop circle hoaxes are just in it
[2:45] Speaker 2: for the ego. And it's the big, I am, I
[2:48] Speaker 2: want to make a name for myself. So I thought
[2:49] Speaker 2: if I put it under a pseudonym and I just
[2:52] Speaker 2: let the accounts talk, I'll let the anecdotes talk, let
[2:56] Speaker 2: the stories talk, then that kind of deflects away from
[2:59] Speaker 2: the individual. And it means you can really home in
[3:03] Speaker 2: on the, on the messages themselves. Um, but just as
[3:07] Speaker 2: a bit of background, um, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool ufologist and
[3:13] Speaker 2: paranormal researcher. Since the age of about 10, I've been
[3:19] Speaker 2: interested in this subject. I don't know why. When I
[3:22] Speaker 2: saw Close Encounters as a kid, it blew my head off.
[3:24] Speaker 2: I was only like 10. I just thought it was incredible.
[3:28] Speaker 2: But we had this magazine called The Unexplained in the
[3:32] Speaker 2: UK back in the day, in the 80s and the 70s.
[3:34] Speaker 2: As a kid, I was into... the Turing Shroud, Nessie, Bigfoot,
[3:43] Speaker 2: electrical voice phenomenon, ectoplasm, everything, mate, everything, everything. But ufology
[3:50] Speaker 2: is the thing that really brought me in. I was
[3:52] Speaker 2: really fascinated by ufology. I was particularly interested in the
[3:59] Speaker 2: Trent Ranch photographs and also the Trinidad photographs. I thought
[4:06] Speaker 2: they were very compelling. So... Back in the day, before
[4:10] Speaker 2: we had the internet and AI and there was no noise,
[4:13] Speaker 2: there was no internet. All we had, it was actually
[4:16] Speaker 2: a beautiful time for ufology because there was no noise.
[4:20] Speaker 2: There was no bickering. All we had was the literature.
[4:24] Speaker 2: So we had the MUFON magazine. We had Flying Source Review.
[4:27] Speaker 2: We had the Bufora magazines. We had the key literature
[4:32] Speaker 2: of like Jacques Veillé. who to me is the godfather
[4:36] Speaker 2: of ufology. We had John Keel, Jenny Randalls, John Spencer,
[4:40] Speaker 2: you know, you know, you know, the school. So I
[4:43] Speaker 2: came in purely as like somebody who was like really,
[4:48] Speaker 2: really interested in this stuff. But we had this thing
[4:50] Speaker 2: called the UFO case books. And I don't think you
[4:53] Speaker 2: had them over the pond. We had this thing where
[4:56] Speaker 2: every year we'd have like a bulletin book it would
[5:00] Speaker 2: like revisit famous cases like Lonnie Zamora and Gulf Breeze
[5:05] Speaker 2: and Kelly Hopkinsville and Betty and Barney. But they'd also
[5:09] Speaker 2: be talking about new sightings, new CE1s, new CE2s, new CE3s.
[5:15] Speaker 2: But they started to, um, print pictures of crop circles
[5:21] Speaker 2: and they were, this was the early days. So they
[5:23] Speaker 2: were very basic. They just looked like their president was the, um,
[5:28] Speaker 2: australian tully nest where it's just a basically a single
[5:31] Speaker 2: circle that looked like a flying saucer had come down
[5:35] Speaker 2: parked up and flown away again but because they were
[5:40] Speaker 2: in crop in this country in wiltshire the um and
[5:45] Speaker 2: hampshire because the crop was high the indentations were more
[5:49] Speaker 2: pronounced because it wasn't grass okay so and they were
[5:53] Speaker 2: presented as birthed flying saucers um And I became fascinated
[6:00] Speaker 2: by that. And then they started to progress. As you know,
[6:04] Speaker 2: we had the, the Led Zeppelin cover, the Alton Barnes
[6:07] Speaker 2: Eastfield formation, but that was like door keys and forks
[6:10] Speaker 2: and dumbbells and corridors. At that point, the correlation between
[6:17] Speaker 2: UFOs and crop circles should have been divorced really, because
[6:21] Speaker 2: no UFO looks like that. You know, you're not going
[6:23] Speaker 2: to see, you know, especially, especially not aerodynamically. So, But
[6:28] Speaker 2: what had happened in my mind was that UFOs had
[6:33] Speaker 2: become so married with crop circles that people started to say, well, okay,
[6:38] Speaker 2: this is no longer birth flying saucers. This is now
[6:43] Speaker 2: messages from my intergalactic space brothers. And I always thought
[6:46] Speaker 2: that transition was really, really clunky. You know, I do
[6:51] Speaker 2: think it's been glossed over and that's, that's where I
[6:54] Speaker 2: came in. I came in with the mindset that these, um,
[6:58] Speaker 2: these complicated crop circles. I thought they were ET. I
[7:03] Speaker 2: thought they were time travelers, secret military testing, or the
[7:10] Speaker 2: earth itself, Mother Earth, Gaia. And that's how I came in.
[7:15] Speaker 2: I came in as a complete believer.
[7:17] Speaker 1: Tell us what really brought you to want to put
[7:22] Speaker 1: this information in a book. Tell us about maybe your
[7:25] Speaker 1: personal experiences which led to everything.
[7:28] Speaker 2: That's perfect because what happened is um we had this
[7:33] Speaker 2: resource called the crop circle connector which is still active
[7:36] Speaker 2: now and the crop circle season is from like april
[7:40] Speaker 2: to like august depending on how hot the summer is
[7:43] Speaker 2: sometimes if we have a really hot summer the crop
[7:46] Speaker 2: gets all cut by july which we've had this year
[7:49] Speaker 2: which in terms of global warming is quite worrying it's
[7:52] Speaker 2: the shortest window we've had um so the crop circle
[7:56] Speaker 2: connector would tell us where the circles were and when,
[8:00] Speaker 2: where they were, when they were made. And then you,
[8:03] Speaker 2: and then there'd be coordinates and you could drive to them.
[8:07] Speaker 2: Maybe you couldn't get into the field because it's trespass
[8:09] Speaker 2: without the farmer's permission, et cetera, but you knew where
[8:12] Speaker 2: they were, but this is key. If there were 10 circles,
[8:16] Speaker 2: but we knew that two were manmade, you just wouldn't
[8:20] Speaker 2: bother going. You're not interested. That's hoaxes. You know, you,
[8:24] Speaker 2: we were thinking, um, The mystery is deep enough. I
[8:27] Speaker 2: always use the analogy of the magician with one ball
[8:30] Speaker 2: under three cups and then some idiot comes and adds
[8:34] Speaker 2: another 10 cups. It's like fake UFO footage. It's like AI.
[8:38] Speaker 2: It's like the mystery was deep enough. We held these
[8:41] Speaker 2: hoaxes in disdain, okay? But one year I decided to
[8:46] Speaker 2: take off all of my holiday from work and just
[8:50] Speaker 2: drive to Wiltshire, camp out and just spend the whole
[8:53] Speaker 2: season there. to see if I could, you know, find
[8:56] Speaker 2: out more. And when I was camped out there, I
[9:01] Speaker 2: started to hear second or third hand accounts and apocryphal
[9:08] Speaker 2: accounts and the rumor mill, the grapevine. And it was
[9:12] Speaker 2: human circle makers reporting dream driven events, synchronicities, orbs, apparitions,
[9:20] Speaker 2: time distortions, reality distortions. And at the time I was
[9:23] Speaker 2: in disdain of the human crop circle makers. And I
[9:26] Speaker 2: thought you're just a bunch of, you know, just ego.
[9:29] Speaker 2: Big I am. Look at me. But then one day
[9:35] Speaker 2: in the end, I decided, well, I don't really care
[9:38] Speaker 2: how they get there. I'm more concerned about the power
[9:40] Speaker 2: they have when they're there, because, you know, they're allegedly sigils,
[9:43] Speaker 2: some people say. And they're in a very, very important
[9:48] Speaker 2: part of the country here because we've got very, we've
[9:52] Speaker 2: got areas steeped in Neolithic history. We've got Stonehenge, Avebury,
[9:57] Speaker 2: we've got the Tumuli, the Henges, um it's really it's
[10:02] Speaker 2: really powerful here and if you're into ley lines this
[10:05] Speaker 2: is apparently the most powerful point in european avebury um
[10:09] Speaker 2: but long story short I was in the car park
[10:14] Speaker 2: in the garden and somebody come up to me and
[10:16] Speaker 2: he said, look, we've been kind of watching you for
[10:19] Speaker 2: the past few days. We think you might be aligned
[10:22] Speaker 2: to what we're doing. There's a crop circle. It's not
[10:25] Speaker 2: been finished. No one's discovered it yet. We've got to
[10:27] Speaker 2: go and finish it tonight. Because in those days there
[10:29] Speaker 2: was no drones and it was really easy for a
[10:32] Speaker 2: crop circle to lay undiscovered for a couple of days.
[10:37] Speaker 2: So I phoned my partner. And I said, look, I've
[10:40] Speaker 2: been called out. I think in order to know the
[10:44] Speaker 2: mystery inside and out, I need to go and do
[10:46] Speaker 2: this because that way I can rule it out. If
[10:49] Speaker 2: I go in there and do this thing with these people,
[10:52] Speaker 2: I can then delve in further with my researches or
[10:56] Speaker 2: I can just leave it because it's a waste of time.
[10:58] Speaker 2: You know, you've got to be empirical. You've got to
[11:00] Speaker 2: be objective. And I thought if I know the mystery
[11:04] Speaker 2: from the inside of this element, then I know it
[11:07] Speaker 2: from outside as well. But I said to my partner,
[11:09] Speaker 2: I'm going to make you this promise. If nothing odd
[11:12] Speaker 2: happens tonight, I'm out. They're hoaxes. They're just idiots. I'm
[11:16] Speaker 2: not interested. They can do one. I'll just concentrate on
[11:20] Speaker 2: the real stuff. And that happened. I went out. It
[11:25] Speaker 2: was a two-stage event, as I say. There was a
[11:27] Speaker 2: couple of American tourists that tagged along. They were on
[11:31] Speaker 2: the team. I think the team was about 15 people.
[11:35] Speaker 2: And at the end, nothing happened. And I thought, What
[11:38] Speaker 2: a waste of time. I can actually close the book
[11:42] Speaker 2: on these idiots now.
[11:44] Speaker 1: And then didn't even make a circle or anything.
[11:46] Speaker 2: No, no, it was, we finished it. We finished it.
[11:48] Speaker 2: It was at the end of the night when the
[11:51] Speaker 2: circle was finished, nothing had happened.
[11:53] Speaker 1: Okay.
[11:53] Speaker 2: Okay. Nothing paranormal had happened. So I thought this is
[11:56] Speaker 2: a waste of time, but the circle was finished. But
[11:59] Speaker 2: I looked at the edge perimeter line of the circle
[12:02] Speaker 2: that we just made. And I saw a single flash
[12:06] Speaker 2: go off, like a, like a Polaroid, bulb and I
[12:09] Speaker 2: thought I thought that's a journalist is somebody crouching low
[12:14] Speaker 2: it wasn't like a shoulder height it was really low
[12:18] Speaker 2: and I thought somebody's somebody's bowing somebody's crouching down in
[12:21] Speaker 2: the crop there and they've taken a photograph and I
[12:24] Speaker 2: said to the team leader this is me done because
[12:26] Speaker 2: you know I'm in a job where I can't have
[12:29] Speaker 2: any whiff of naughtiness this is going to be a
[12:31] Speaker 2: criminal mark against me and he just went no no
[12:34] Speaker 2: don't worry this is common and I thought what do
[12:37] Speaker 2: you mean by that And then this light turned into
[12:41] Speaker 2: two lights, then three lights. And I thought, is that
[12:43] Speaker 2: three people with photographs? Is that one bloke with the
[12:46] Speaker 2: same camera? Then it proliferated into five or six. And
[12:49] Speaker 2: then it proliferated into what I call in my book,
[12:51] Speaker 2: the largest necklace in the world, because these lights sprinkled
[12:55] Speaker 2: their way around the perimeter of the circle. And it
[12:58] Speaker 2: wasn't like, it was like a wall. They went behind
[13:01] Speaker 2: each other. It was like this wall, okay? And I
[13:05] Speaker 2: said to the team leader, what the hell is that?
[13:07] Speaker 2: And he said to me, look, he was really blasé
[13:10] Speaker 2: because he'd made loads. He said, look, you get used
[13:15] Speaker 2: to this. If you keep making circles, you're going to
[13:19] Speaker 2: get used to this. But what this is, is we
[13:22] Speaker 2: are being told this circle is finished. And if you
[13:27] Speaker 2: add any more to it, like a painter who doesn't
[13:29] Speaker 2: know when he's finished the painting, if you add anything
[13:31] Speaker 2: else to it, you're going to mess it up. Leave it.
[13:34] Speaker 2: This is like a round of applause. OK, and the
[13:37] Speaker 2: team leader looked to the sky and he said, OK,
[13:41] Speaker 2: we're done now. We've done our work. Now you all do.
[13:44] Speaker 2: Now you you do yours. Now, what he meant by that,
[13:46] Speaker 2: I found out later was that when you're in the
[13:49] Speaker 2: circle making it, it's yours. But the second that you
[13:52] Speaker 2: leave it, it doesn't belong to you anymore. It belongs
[13:54] Speaker 2: to the world. And then he said, OK, we're shipping
[13:57] Speaker 2: out now. You do your work now. And he said, OK, goodbye.
[14:00] Speaker 2: And I said, T, who are you talking to? And
[14:03] Speaker 2: he went that lot. And then he said, we're going now.
[14:08] Speaker 2: And then he said, bye. And then these lights just
[14:10] Speaker 2: as one, like it was like a bathroom light flicked off.
[14:13] Speaker 2: The whole thing flicked off, like almost in response to
[14:15] Speaker 2: him saying goodbye. And that's when I thought, okay. You know,
[14:22] Speaker 2: I've never been able to explain that. There might, there
[14:24] Speaker 2: might be a rational explanation. There might be a rational,
[14:27] Speaker 2: as I say, you've got to stay objective, but to
[14:30] Speaker 2: this day, I've got no idea what that was. And it,
[14:34] Speaker 2: and it's, The similar thing is reported by the circle
[14:38] Speaker 2: making teams. So that was the start of my journey.
[14:43] Speaker 1: That's incredible. How did everything progress from there? Did you
[14:47] Speaker 1: continue to attend these sessions and have strange experiences along
[14:52] Speaker 1: the way?
[14:53] Speaker 2: Well, everybody, I've been asked this a lot. There's no
[14:57] Speaker 2: like cabal or secret freemasonry lodge with circle makers. You
[15:02] Speaker 2: have teams, they get old. They retire, they bring in
[15:06] Speaker 2: new people, their people go and make... It's like a
[15:09] Speaker 2: revolving person. There's no particular camaraderie to it. It's just
[15:15] Speaker 2: people that are compelled to do it or people that
[15:17] Speaker 2: are artists. And people are dropping out and coming in
[15:20] Speaker 2: all the time. And something strange doesn't happen every time
[15:24] Speaker 2: you make one. I'd say probably only 40 or 50%
[15:28] Speaker 2: of the time something odd happens. But sometimes you think
[15:32] Speaker 2: nothing odd has happened... And then you find out the
[15:35] Speaker 2: next day, the internet tells you that there's a relevance
[15:39] Speaker 2: to that circle. It's foreshadowed something or it's foretold something,
[15:43] Speaker 2: an event that's happened 24 hours later or 48 hours later.
[15:49] Speaker 2: And that's something that we had no knowledge of at
[15:51] Speaker 2: the time. So you go and make a pattern and
[15:56] Speaker 2: then you don't necessarily know why you've actually decided on
[16:00] Speaker 2: that pattern. And then it turns out that that particular
[16:03] Speaker 2: pattern had a direct relevance to either the area or
[16:07] Speaker 2: that exact sort of parish or a world event. Wow.
[16:12] Speaker 2: So that's what my interest really is. It's in the
[16:16] Speaker 2: synchronicities and in the, um, the dream driven stuff. That's,
[16:21] Speaker 2: that's where I am with it. After interviewing these people
[16:24] Speaker 2: for like sort of so many years, I mean, I've got,
[16:28] Speaker 2: I've got an account where somebody had an intense dream.
[16:31] Speaker 2: of a particular pattern that had never been done before.
[16:34] Speaker 2: And when he woke up, he just thought, well, how
[16:36] Speaker 2: has that never been done before? It was a little
[16:38] Speaker 2: bit like when Paul McCartney woke up after writing Yesterday.
[16:43] Speaker 2: He's like, how has that never been done before? It
[16:45] Speaker 2: had come to him fully formed, because a lot of
[16:47] Speaker 2: artists and musicians say, these ideas come to me fully realized.
[16:53] Speaker 2: So he had this circle that was fully formed in
[16:55] Speaker 2: his head. And he thought, right, let's see if I
[16:57] Speaker 2: can do it on paper using the compass And the
[17:01] Speaker 2: geometry set. And he could. And he phoned up a friend.
[17:05] Speaker 2: He said look. I've got this design that's never been
[17:09] Speaker 2: done before. I've just tried it out on my geometry set.
[17:13] Speaker 2: It can be done. But we're going to need three people.
[17:16] Speaker 2: It's too complicated to explain over the phone. How about
[17:19] Speaker 2: I come around now. I'll draw it out for you.
[17:22] Speaker 2: If you like it we can do it next week.
[17:24] Speaker 2: The guy said go for it. So he went round
[17:27] Speaker 2: his house. But on the way there. And this was
[17:31] Speaker 2: his normal commute. He drove down this road a thousand times.
[17:36] Speaker 2: On his way there, he said it was an internal,
[17:39] Speaker 2: external direction, this voice there that said, look to your left.
[17:45] Speaker 2: And he had no reason to look to his left
[17:47] Speaker 2: because he'd seen this field a billion times. But he said,
[17:50] Speaker 2: he looked to his left and you've guessed the rest.
[17:52] Speaker 2: It was exactly the crop circle that he was driving around.
[17:55] Speaker 2: I mean, I don't mean just a little bit. It
[17:57] Speaker 2: was exactly that. And of course he, he drove the
[18:03] Speaker 2: other way and went home. But what he said to
[18:05] Speaker 2: me was that where we have like maybe a mystical
[18:09] Speaker 2: element to this is that if you've got a team
[18:14] Speaker 2: of up to 10 or 20 human beings and they
[18:17] Speaker 2: are all focused and intent on the same symbol and
[18:22] Speaker 2: with the exertion and the physical effort, and the sweat
[18:26] Speaker 2: and the energy expelled in manifesting that sigil or that symbol,
[18:33] Speaker 2: that in itself is arguably magic, whether they know it
[18:37] Speaker 2: or not. Because obviously when Wiccans and pagans use the
[18:42] Speaker 2: same sort of supplications with the intent and the effort
[18:46] Speaker 2: as well, but without actually building them, that also is
[18:50] Speaker 2: manifestation as well. but you don't see people giving Wiccans
[18:56] Speaker 2: and pagans a hard time because they're humans. You know,
[19:00] Speaker 2: with human circle makers, I think just the intent of
[19:05] Speaker 2: a group of people in a Neolithic site and the,
[19:08] Speaker 2: and the exertion, and they're all focused on the same symbol.
[19:13] Speaker 2: This guy said, maybe because he lived a couple of
[19:16] Speaker 2: miles away, he said, maybe as that circle was being
[19:19] Speaker 2: manifested into the world, maybe it bled into his dream
[19:23] Speaker 2: and he was actually having some sort of interconnectivity with
[19:27] Speaker 2: the circle-making team while it was happening. And that's really
[19:31] Speaker 2: the area that I'm really, really interested in. And what's
[19:35] Speaker 2: important is that I'm not here to burst anyone's bubble.
[19:39] Speaker 2: You know, it's not my place to say to you,
[19:41] Speaker 2: these are all man-made. It's not my place. It's not
[19:45] Speaker 2: fair because my objective my objectivity and my empirical researches
[19:51] Speaker 2: might steer me a different way tomorrow so I took
[19:55] Speaker 2: great care in the book to say I'm not going
[19:57] Speaker 2: to tell you these are all man-made or they're not
[20:00] Speaker 2: well what I'm saying to you is if we concentrate
[20:02] Speaker 2: just on what is happening with with human circle makers
[20:06] Speaker 2: if you want you can segregate that away from everything
[20:10] Speaker 2: else from the ET stuff or whatever you believe. Cause
[20:13] Speaker 2: I think that what's happening with human circle makers is
[20:17] Speaker 2: worthy of investigation in its own right because of all
[20:20] Speaker 2: of the synchronicities and the dream driven events we have.
[20:23] Speaker 2: That's where I am with it.
[20:26] Speaker 1: The groups that you were working with, did they pre-plan
[20:30] Speaker 1: the design of the circles before they started doing it?
[20:34] Speaker 2: Of course, of course you've got to, because otherwise you've
[20:36] Speaker 2: got to mess it up. It's, As I said to you,
[20:39] Speaker 2: we've got between, say, August and March to do the groundwork.
[20:47] Speaker 2: And you had to be careful who you took out
[20:50] Speaker 2: because if you had a weak member of the team,
[20:55] Speaker 2: you'd have to start them off as what we call
[20:58] Speaker 2: a stomp trooper. So the circle's plotted out by the experts,
[21:02] Speaker 2: by the real great designers, and the new guys... their
[21:06] Speaker 2: direction is just board within the lines and just flatten.
[21:10] Speaker 2: Don't do anything complicated because you're going to mess it up.
[21:14] Speaker 2: And then obviously as they go on and become more experienced,
[21:17] Speaker 2: then they start to start their own teams that branches off.
[21:21] Speaker 2: I was asked recently, how many circle makers you think
[21:24] Speaker 2: they've been historically? And I have to honestly say it
[21:27] Speaker 2: probably runs into four figures. It probably runs into thousands
[21:30] Speaker 2: of people because people come in like those, like those
[21:34] Speaker 2: American guys, you know? Yeah. The tourists, I never saw
[21:37] Speaker 2: them again, you know? And then you get foreigners coming
[21:41] Speaker 2: over here and then you start to see maybe circles
[21:44] Speaker 2: in France and Italy now and again, which are where
[21:47] Speaker 2: they've gone and made their own country.
[21:51] Speaker 1: Before we get to other examples of what, some people
[21:56] Speaker 1: may have experienced with synchronicities or dreams or strange phenomenon
[22:01] Speaker 1: that led them to the circle. Did you have any
[22:03] Speaker 1: other unexplainable experiences, synchronicities, dreams, anything like that?
[22:08] Speaker 2: Yeah, I have one, which I just can't explain to
[22:10] Speaker 2: this day. Um, and it was the, uh, I used,
[22:17] Speaker 2: when I was a believer, when it went, when I,
[22:18] Speaker 2: when I thought they were all like ET or all,
[22:21] Speaker 2: you know, time travelers or I used to, um, charter, uh,
[22:26] Speaker 2: a microlight aircraft from Yatesbury. And we used to fly
[22:30] Speaker 2: every morning to see if there was any new circles.
[22:33] Speaker 2: It's quite expensive actually. Um, but I had this recurring
[22:38] Speaker 2: dream where I was in the microlight that I chartered,
[22:42] Speaker 2: but then the microlight would evaporate and I would be,
[22:45] Speaker 2: and then it would turn into an Uber. It would
[22:47] Speaker 2: turn into like an, an out of body experience because
[22:50] Speaker 2: I'm there's no plane I'm flying. Okay. And it really
[22:53] Speaker 2: felt really real. You know, you could feel yourself swooping.
[22:56] Speaker 2: It was really real. And I'd always be over these
[23:01] Speaker 2: certain two fields and they were massive. And it was
[23:04] Speaker 2: over a part of Wiltshire I'd never seen before. And
[23:07] Speaker 2: I knew the area like the back of my hand,
[23:09] Speaker 2: I thought. And there was always a bloke flying next
[23:12] Speaker 2: to me. And it was somebody I went to school with.
[23:15] Speaker 2: And I hadn't seen him for 30 years. And I
[23:17] Speaker 2: used to wake up and think, there's that dream again.
[23:20] Speaker 2: There's Because in the dream, I'll be flying over two
[23:24] Speaker 2: fields and in each field, there was a crop circle
[23:26] Speaker 2: and they were both completely different. Always the same two fields,
[23:29] Speaker 2: always the same two circles. Had it for months. And
[23:34] Speaker 2: I woke up and I used to wake up thinking,
[23:36] Speaker 2: why am I dreaming about that bloke flying next to me?
[23:39] Speaker 2: I couldn't work it out. One day, I was driving
[23:43] Speaker 2: to see a friend in wheelchair and I took a
[23:46] Speaker 2: wrong turn. And wrong turn in this phenomenon sometimes means
[23:51] Speaker 2: difference to what it means in real life normal life
[23:54] Speaker 2: I took a wrong turn and I found myself I
[23:57] Speaker 2: in in like this diorama of what I'd seen in
[24:00] Speaker 2: my dream it was exactly the scene and I thought
[24:02] Speaker 2: well I thought I knew all of wheelchair or and
[24:05] Speaker 2: it was exactly that scene I looked to my left
[24:08] Speaker 2: and the road that had led me there was the
[24:11] Speaker 2: same name as the road that my friend lived in
[24:14] Speaker 2: when I used to go and play around his house
[24:15] Speaker 2: as a kid when I was 10 and I thought
[24:18] Speaker 2: well that's odd um and I I had a team
[24:22] Speaker 2: coming down. There was four of us, I think. And
[24:26] Speaker 2: I find my partner. I said, look, I've got to
[24:29] Speaker 2: get a circle down in one of these fields, but
[24:30] Speaker 2: I can't do both. We've only got the resources and
[24:33] Speaker 2: the time to do one in terms of difficulty. They
[24:37] Speaker 2: are exactly the same. They're 50, 50 in terms of size.
[24:41] Speaker 2: They're the same in terms of the exertion and the manpower.
[24:45] Speaker 2: They're exactly the same. I just cannot decide which one
[24:48] Speaker 2: to do. And, um, The team couldn't decide either. So
[24:52] Speaker 2: we went to a field and it went to the
[24:55] Speaker 2: first field. I thought, what I'm going to do, I
[24:57] Speaker 2: will just look Skywalker this. I'll just do the first
[25:04] Speaker 2: thing that comes to my head. If it's a straight line,
[25:06] Speaker 2: it's this circle. If it's a curved line, it's that circle.
[25:09] Speaker 2: Got the circle down. Next day, I got a phone
[25:13] Speaker 2: call from my partner and she said, geez, how did
[25:16] Speaker 2: you do that? I said, what do you mean? She goes, well,
[25:20] Speaker 2: the photos are up online. They're on the crop circle connector.
[25:22] Speaker 2: It's been flown. A pilot's seen them. I said, what
[25:25] Speaker 2: do you mean them? What do you mean them? She goes, well,
[25:29] Speaker 2: you've made both your circles. And I said, no, we haven't.
[25:32] Speaker 2: I said, I've got one done because I only had
[25:34] Speaker 2: a team of four. You got one done and that's it.
[25:38] Speaker 2: And she says, but your other circles in the field
[25:41] Speaker 2: next door. And I went, but that's impossible and I
[25:45] Speaker 2: went to an internet cafe because in those days there
[25:48] Speaker 2: was no wi-fi you had to drive to like a
[25:51] Speaker 2: desktop and we found the aerial picture of my circle
[25:57] Speaker 2: and if you look from the air there was a
[25:59] Speaker 2: strip dividing my circle with the other field and the
[26:04] Speaker 2: other field had the other circle in there so you
[26:07] Speaker 2: had both of my circles in neighboring fields but because
[26:11] Speaker 2: the um the strip denoted a hill. So from the air,
[26:16] Speaker 2: it looked like a line, but actually on the ground,
[26:20] Speaker 2: it was a massive hill. So we were working in
[26:23] Speaker 2: one field and the other team were working in the
[26:26] Speaker 2: other field and we didn't know about them and they
[26:28] Speaker 2: didn't know about us. And then we come up with
[26:32] Speaker 2: those two circles from my dream.
[26:34] Speaker 1: Were they the same or similar?
[26:37] Speaker 2: I wouldn't have wasted your time with the story if
[26:38] Speaker 2: it wasn't.
[26:38] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[26:39] Speaker 2: Exactly.
[26:39] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[26:39] Speaker 2: Wow. It was... as I said, in terms of ability,
[26:43] Speaker 2: in terms of how hard they were to do. Yeah.
[26:46] Speaker 2: They weren't that complicated, but it was 50, 50. It
[26:51] Speaker 2: was the same amount of man, man, man power and
[26:53] Speaker 2: the same amount of, um, uh, it's the same scale,
[26:57] Speaker 2: but there was another, there was another case where, um,
[27:01] Speaker 2: a team was supposed to be making swallows and there
[27:04] Speaker 2: was a weak member because he was new. And like
[27:07] Speaker 2: the team leader said, I've got to home in on
[27:10] Speaker 2: this new guy. Because we're stretched as a team. So
[27:13] Speaker 2: he does need to measure some out. So he spent
[27:16] Speaker 2: the whole day mentoring this guy. And they were on
[27:23] Speaker 2: the way to the field and they stopped by the field.
[27:26] Speaker 2: And this team leader kind of sat bolt upright as
[27:30] Speaker 2: if he'd been jacked into a supercomputer or something. And
[27:33] Speaker 2: he just went, no, no, no spirals. And they went, what?
[27:37] Speaker 2: He said, we're not doing swallows. We're doing spirals. And
[27:40] Speaker 2: the new guy's going, I don't know what I'm doing.
[27:41] Speaker 2: We're going to mess it up. And he goes, no,
[27:43] Speaker 2: it's going to be fine. Spirals. So they got the
[27:45] Speaker 2: spirals down. Two double spirals. It wasn't that complicated. So
[27:51] Speaker 2: it went okay. Then they went to the cafe the
[27:56] Speaker 2: next day to see if it had been reported. And
[27:58] Speaker 2: they found their double spirals online. But they said, well,
[28:04] Speaker 2: hold on a minute. The filter's wrong because we were
[28:06] Speaker 2: working in golden barley. This is in green wheat. And
[28:10] Speaker 2: somebody said, well, the location is wrong as well. These
[28:13] Speaker 2: people are normally really good. What's going on? Then they
[28:17] Speaker 2: scrolled down and they found their actual double spirals. The
[28:21] Speaker 2: ones above were another set of double spirals, which were
[28:25] Speaker 2: pretty much identical. And they were done the same night,
[28:29] Speaker 2: around the same time. Now, the postscript to this story
[28:32] Speaker 2: is that 10 years later, some, one of that team
[28:37] Speaker 2: was driving on the A303. He picked up a hitchhiker
[28:41] Speaker 2: who was in trouble by the road to take him
[28:43] Speaker 2: to a garage or to get his car repaired. And
[28:45] Speaker 2: he said, he didn't know this person from Adam. And as,
[28:50] Speaker 2: as you know, with this subject, you don't start talking
[28:53] Speaker 2: about random paranormal subjects to strangers. He said, but they
[28:56] Speaker 2: were in the car. And the first thing they discussed
[28:58] Speaker 2: was crop circles. He said that in alone, that alone
[29:01] Speaker 2: was a bit strange. And it turned out this guy
[29:05] Speaker 2: was part of a sky... He said, we made a
[29:08] Speaker 2: crop circle for a laugh 10 years ago. They were skydivers.
[29:13] Speaker 2: And he said the two champion skydivers, they had this
[29:18] Speaker 2: trope of flying down together. And the double spiral was
[29:23] Speaker 2: supposed to represent their descent. Now, the thing with that
[29:27] Speaker 2: story is there's no great archetypal balance you know, fantastic
[29:31] Speaker 2: supernatural message to it. It's just mundane, but it does
[29:36] Speaker 2: show that there's a connectivity between humanity i think you
[29:42] Speaker 2: know it could be a coincidence but it's really stretching
[29:45] Speaker 2: it you know especially as it was supposed to be
[29:48] Speaker 2: swallows and then he decided two minutes before.
[29:53] Speaker 1: Based on my own experiences and so many others that
[29:56] Speaker 1: i've interviewed Once you have that initial awakening to the
[30:01] Speaker 1: possibilities of high strangeness or metaphysical phenomena of any kind,
[30:07] Speaker 1: once you experience it yourself and that opens up your mind,
[30:11] Speaker 1: then it seems to allow you to have more experiences
[30:16] Speaker 1: and to be open to that.
[30:20] Speaker 2: You're right. I think that if you are aligned to
[30:24] Speaker 2: any of these subjects... you do tend to attract them,
[30:29] Speaker 2: but we've got to be careful because if you're not careful,
[30:35] Speaker 2: you start attributing everything to strangeness. You know, you've got
[30:40] Speaker 2: to stay objective. You've got to stay. If you're an independent,
[30:44] Speaker 2: you know, if you're an objective researcher, that's why when
[30:47] Speaker 2: I found out that the human beings were making fantastic
[30:50] Speaker 2: crop circles, I was really angry for about 10 minutes
[30:54] Speaker 2: because I thought I've wasted, I've wasted 10 years of
[30:56] Speaker 2: my life thinking that the roots thinking that some really,
[30:59] Speaker 2: really good ones can't be made by humans. But then
[31:02] Speaker 2: I thought, well, if there is a human component to
[31:06] Speaker 2: some crop circles, then hold on a minute. That's actually
[31:09] Speaker 2: much more interesting than, than, than ET or, you know, so,
[31:13] Speaker 2: so it was, it was not the discovery that was
[31:18] Speaker 2: the breakthrough. The acceptance was the breakthrough, you know, So
[31:22] Speaker 2: you have to stay objective. But I know what you're saying,
[31:25] Speaker 2: but there's this tendency, if you're not careful, to attribute
[31:29] Speaker 2: everything that's not that stuff that isn't there, you know.
[31:34] Speaker 1: Quite often, some of the defenders of the extraterrestrial hypothesis,
[31:40] Speaker 1: as it relates to crop circles, will say that the
[31:44] Speaker 1: bending done on the crops is much different than when
[31:47] Speaker 1: a human would do it, that this strange nodule is
[31:50] Speaker 1: formed to where the plant can bend and not break.
[31:54] Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on that? Is there a difference
[31:57] Speaker 1: that you've noticed between any of these, the way they
[31:59] Speaker 1: are formed, if it's some kind of supernatural way to
[32:04] Speaker 1: bend it other than normally the way you do it,
[32:07] Speaker 1: if it would break?
[32:10] Speaker 2: The first thing you've got to consider if you're being
[32:12] Speaker 2: objective is that that, um, based upon a paper that
[32:20] Speaker 2: was written back in the 90s okay and there are
[32:26] Speaker 2: certain elements of that paper again with confirmation bias you've
[32:29] Speaker 2: got to look at all sides when I was a
[32:31] Speaker 2: believer I took that stuff as being gospel but when
[32:35] Speaker 2: you start to really delve there's elements that need to
[32:39] Speaker 2: be investigated more the first is this at night the
[32:44] Speaker 2: crop is more moist than it is in the day, okay?
[32:47] Speaker 2: So it's easier to bend over with boards because there's
[32:50] Speaker 2: moisture there. And then in the daytime, because the sun's
[32:54] Speaker 2: baking it, okay, it's a lot more brittle and it's
[32:57] Speaker 2: more susceptible to breakage. Another point is that a crop
[33:02] Speaker 2: circle is like a crime scene. It's like CSI. It's
[33:05] Speaker 2: literally a crime scene in that trespass and vandalism and
[33:09] Speaker 2: criminal damage has been conducted. But also, it's CSI in
[33:13] Speaker 2: that if you don't get to that thing quickly, it's
[33:16] Speaker 2: like a crime scene. If you don't get there quickly,
[33:19] Speaker 2: it's going to be contaminated. And the contamination in this
[33:22] Speaker 2: point is people that get there before you. So if
[33:25] Speaker 2: you see damage in a crop circle or muddy footprints
[33:28] Speaker 2: and like the crop circles, a bit of a mess,
[33:31] Speaker 2: that's not to say that the, that the circle was
[33:33] Speaker 2: made badly. It means it's been, you know, abused with
[33:36] Speaker 2: the visitors afterwards. Okay. Um, but, key thing is phototropism
[33:42] Speaker 2: now phototropism means that um if a plant is bent
[33:49] Speaker 2: over and it doesn't break then its tendency its natural
[33:54] Speaker 2: tendency because the plant is still alive its natural tendency
[33:58] Speaker 2: is to bend towards the sunlight okay and that is
[34:02] Speaker 2: what the farmers will tell you is really actually happening
[34:06] Speaker 2: because it releases um there's a chemical reaction with, within
[34:11] Speaker 2: the module. Okay. So people do hold that up as
[34:15] Speaker 2: evidence as it can't be manmade, but you need to
[34:19] Speaker 2: look really closely at all the papers. And I don't
[34:23] Speaker 2: want to, you know, what can I say? I don't
[34:26] Speaker 2: want to get into a war here, but there are
[34:30] Speaker 2: big questions about that paper.
[34:32] Speaker 1: Okay.
[34:33] Speaker 2: They just look into the, the arguments against, as well
[34:39] Speaker 2: as the arguments for. That paper has very big question
[34:43] Speaker 2: marks over it.
[34:46] Speaker 1: Lots of information in the UFO field seems to be
[34:50] Speaker 1: gate-kept in many ways, in a sense that if you
[34:53] Speaker 1: challenge some of the narratives, there's a lot of pushback
[34:58] Speaker 1: from it. And that goes for a lot of these
[35:00] Speaker 1: fringe topics that we're looking into. People have certain perspectives
[35:04] Speaker 1: on it for many years. But the second new information
[35:07] Speaker 1: comes along that might change what that fundamentally means, some
[35:12] Speaker 1: people don't want to admit that that's a possibility. So
[35:15] Speaker 1: that's why we have the stagnance in this UFO field.
[35:20] Speaker 2: Connected with that, okay, there was a scientific paper related
[35:25] Speaker 2: to the Bent Not Broken argument, and it was analyzed
[35:29] Speaker 2: by an actual crop scientist who blew it apart. He said,
[35:35] Speaker 2: There was no blind testing employed. There was no element
[35:40] Speaker 2: of phototropism allowed for. And he basically blew the paper apart. Now,
[35:47] Speaker 2: when he told people about this, and he isn't a
[35:51] Speaker 2: crop expert, that's his job. When he told people about this,
[35:55] Speaker 2: what did they say? You're deep state. They've got to you, blah, blah.
[36:00] Speaker 2: So you can't win with this stuff.
[36:03] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[36:05] Speaker 2: If you have a counter to an argument that you like,
[36:07] Speaker 2: if it's an argument that you like and it's been
[36:10] Speaker 2: reinforced by something you like, some people just don't bother
[36:14] Speaker 2: to check the background. They say, okay, that backs up
[36:16] Speaker 2: my argument. If there's a counter to it and it's
[36:19] Speaker 2: done by somebody who's an absolute bona fide expert, then, oh,
[36:24] Speaker 2: deep state. Right. Disinformation. You know what I mean? It's
[36:28] Speaker 2: not just crop circles. It's ufology. It's Bigfoot. It's everything.
[36:33] Speaker 1: It is.
[36:33] Speaker 2: It's unfortunate. I can't see it ever changing.
[36:37] Speaker 1: It is interesting because within the past, I'd say, three
[36:41] Speaker 1: to five years, there's been more interest in these topics
[36:45] Speaker 1: than I've ever noticed in my lifetime. It's my hopes
[36:49] Speaker 1: that the interest and awakening to the possibility of some
[36:53] Speaker 1: of these things is going to eventually change that narrative
[36:57] Speaker 1: to where we'll be able to learn more without... gatekeepers.
[37:02] Speaker 2: In a sense.
[37:03] Speaker 1: Now I wanted to ask you, how long does it
[37:06] Speaker 1: normally take to complete one of these circles?
[37:11] Speaker 2: It depends on its scale. So it depends on how
[37:14] Speaker 2: big it is, how complicated it is. Um, so you
[37:19] Speaker 2: can get a basic one done with two or three
[37:22] Speaker 2: people in a couple of hours. Okay. Um, you've, you've
[37:26] Speaker 2: only got a window of between 10 and three in
[37:29] Speaker 2: the summer months. Okay. But you scale it up, okay?
[37:32] Speaker 2: So we've got this trope where people say, well, that's
[37:37] Speaker 2: two drunk blokes walking back from the pub. That's put
[37:41] Speaker 2: to bed years ago. That was Doug and Dave. They
[37:44] Speaker 2: were the pioneers with some of the circles. But after that,
[37:48] Speaker 2: we had skilled people coming in. There was a second wave,
[37:51] Speaker 2: and then the third wave was circle makers. And I've
[37:56] Speaker 2: been in teams of 20. and they've not got it finished,
[37:59] Speaker 2: or they've just about got it finished, or it looks finished,
[38:02] Speaker 2: and they've had to go and embellish it the following night.
[38:05] Speaker 2: So it's just a question of scale, how big you
[38:09] Speaker 2: want it to be. The bigger and the more complicated,
[38:12] Speaker 2: the more people you're going to need. And sometimes it
[38:15] Speaker 2: needs to be a two-night event, although two-night events are
[38:17] Speaker 2: getting really difficult to do now because of drones.
[38:21] Speaker 1: Is there any other instances either that you've experienced or
[38:26] Speaker 1: others have experienced that you've heard about that include apparitions, lights,
[38:32] Speaker 1: other kind of mysterious happenings surrounded by it? Loads.
[38:38] Speaker 2: There's loads. But again, we've got to be careful because
[38:43] Speaker 2: this is a very strange area, okay? And it could
[38:46] Speaker 2: be contended that what people now see as UAPs and
[38:51] Speaker 2: UFOs are ancestors and generations before, and the farmers' fathers
[38:57] Speaker 2: and their fathers, historically they call these things away with
[39:02] Speaker 2: the fairies or or you know nature spirits or fairy
[39:05] Speaker 2: lights or spirits or um what do you call um
[39:11] Speaker 2: elementals uh yeah yeah portents yeah that's that um so
[39:19] Speaker 2: this stuff has been here for hundreds and hundreds of
[39:21] Speaker 2: years it's been reported they just call it different things
[39:24] Speaker 2: um so i'm very conscious of attaching this stuff to
[39:28] Speaker 2: crop circles when it's not necessarily there because i've got
[39:31] Speaker 2: friends that have fallen out of love with the crop
[39:33] Speaker 2: circles because of the politics we discussed and because of
[39:35] Speaker 2: the factions and they just got sick of the actual
[39:39] Speaker 2: subject so what they do now is they uh they
[39:42] Speaker 2: camp out um on adam's grave on uphill and then
[39:46] Speaker 2: they just see the light show So they're going to
[39:48] Speaker 2: see this stuff anyway, whether there's crop circles or not.
[39:52] Speaker 2: And they say very interesting things. Like they say, when we,
[39:55] Speaker 2: when we look at these things, um, they tend to
[39:58] Speaker 2: react to being observed. So there'll be, there'll be still
[40:03] Speaker 2: in the sky. And then as soon as you see
[40:05] Speaker 2: it and you pay attention to it, it will start
[40:07] Speaker 2: doing a little performance. It's like really, but it's really
[40:10] Speaker 2: hard to explain. I know you get that in UFO,
[40:12] Speaker 2: in UFO sites as well. So yeah, but, specifically there
[40:18] Speaker 2: was a circle making team that I knew that were
[40:20] Speaker 2: making this circle. And during the creation process, I'll go
[40:25] Speaker 2: back a bit. There was a circle made and somebody
[40:29] Speaker 2: I know, um, it was a summer's day and they
[40:32] Speaker 2: took their dog into the circle, which they shouldn't have done,
[40:35] Speaker 2: but it was, it was too hot to keep the
[40:36] Speaker 2: dog in the car. It was too hot. It was
[40:38] Speaker 2: even when the windows open, it was no way. So
[40:41] Speaker 2: they reluctantly took the set, the dog into the circle.
[40:44] Speaker 2: And they said that the dog was a very happy
[40:46] Speaker 2: dog and it was very lively and it was bounding about.
[40:50] Speaker 2: And they said it suddenly let off this horrible squeal.
[40:54] Speaker 2: And they thought that it got some flint in its
[40:57] Speaker 2: paw or it had been stung or something. It was
[40:59] Speaker 2: a heart-wrenching yell. It was horrible. You never want to
[41:01] Speaker 2: hear an animal in distress. And then.
[41:06] Speaker 2: It was okay again. And then it started to yell again.
[41:09] Speaker 2: Then they realized that it was only distressed within the circle.
[41:12] Speaker 2: And when it came out the circle again, it was
[41:14] Speaker 2: fine again. So it was distressed within the circle. And then. Wow. Yeah.
[41:22] Speaker 2: But it turned out that they spoke to the circle
[41:25] Speaker 2: maker that made it. And he says, he said, he said,
[41:28] Speaker 2: when we were making that at the perimeter, there was
[41:34] Speaker 2: a black dog. walking around the perimeter of the circle
[41:40] Speaker 2: and he said we weren't sure if it was a
[41:44] Speaker 2: a predator or a protector but when we zeroed in
[41:48] Speaker 2: on it it turned gray and disappeared wow and there's
[41:54] Speaker 2: another instance which i've recorded because i i had to
[41:57] Speaker 2: put this in there was a guy in the circle
[42:01] Speaker 2: and he said that um He knew there was another
[42:04] Speaker 2: team member near him and he looked to his left
[42:09] Speaker 2: and saw him or thought he saw him. Then he
[42:12] Speaker 2: looked to his right and it was the actual team member.
[42:15] Speaker 2: So he looked to his left again and he said,
[42:18] Speaker 2: when I looked closely, this thing was like, I can
[42:22] Speaker 2: only describe it as the mould of a man that
[42:24] Speaker 2: hadn't been finished. He said the face was like a
[42:28] Speaker 2: fencer's mask from the Olympics. It was just like a
[42:31] Speaker 2: protuberance of a nose. He said, and it just looked
[42:34] Speaker 2: like somebody had gone to make a human but not
[42:37] Speaker 2: finished it. And the account that I've got in there
[42:41] Speaker 2: is that he swiped it with his board and the
[42:44] Speaker 2: thing evaporated. Now, with accounts like that, I'm very aware
[42:50] Speaker 2: of the Oz factor that ufology tells us about. I
[42:55] Speaker 2: sometimes wonder, with an account that's as crazy as that, whether...
[43:01] Speaker 2: He's perceiving that's happened rather than it's actually happened. I
[43:05] Speaker 2: think that the way that this phenomena works, and a
[43:07] Speaker 2: lot of ufologists are with me on this, we're all
[43:10] Speaker 2: together on this, the phenomena has a knack or a
[43:13] Speaker 2: way of being able to just drill into your psyche, okay?
[43:17] Speaker 1: Affect your perception.
[43:18] Speaker 2: Absolutely. So I know that that story is crazy, okay?
[43:23] Speaker 2: But I've got no reason to doubt the person that
[43:25] Speaker 2: told me that story because in all my interviews, I've
[43:28] Speaker 2: interviewed people that I trust, Or people that are vouched
[43:31] Speaker 2: for me, but people that are vouched for in the
[43:33] Speaker 2: same way. I'd never go and make a crop circle.
[43:35] Speaker 2: The team, I didn't know they could be journalists. They
[43:37] Speaker 2: could be, you know, so the person that told me
[43:40] Speaker 2: that story, even him, even in his anonymity, he was
[43:45] Speaker 2: still scared to tell me because he says, people don't
[43:48] Speaker 2: think I'm nuts. I said, well, nobody knows who you are.
[43:51] Speaker 2: He said, even with that, it sounds nuts. It sounds
[43:54] Speaker 2: like the subject is nuts. But I think, I'm with you,
[43:57] Speaker 2: I think that some of the time with these really
[43:59] Speaker 2: crazy accounts, I think it's a question of an alteration
[44:04] Speaker 2: of perception. And that's not on your idea, is it?
[44:07] Speaker 2: That goes back to Jacques Fayet and the Oz factor.
[44:10] Speaker 2: There's crazy accounts like that.
[44:14] Speaker 1: Where I'm at with phenomena like this, I consider the
[44:18] Speaker 1: possibility that there is an ecosystem of some kind of
[44:21] Speaker 1: intelligences beyond what we can normally perceive. That can reach
[44:26] Speaker 1: out and interact with us in different ways. Maybe they have...
[44:30] Speaker 1: Some have certain interest in humanity. Maybe some are malevolent
[44:35] Speaker 1: in some ways, trying to trick humanity. But I think
[44:37] Speaker 1: there's a various ecosystem of these, whether you want to
[44:41] Speaker 1: call them spirits or interdimensional intelligences, whatever they are, I
[44:46] Speaker 1: don't think we have an understanding. We may never have
[44:50] Speaker 1: an understanding of what these really are. They.
[44:53] Speaker 1: Can affect our reality, and what we call magic is
[44:57] Speaker 1: a way to interact with them. And you mentioned that
[45:01] Speaker 1: these crop circles are essentially sigils. What would you say
[45:07] Speaker 1: would be the purpose of getting humans to create these sigils?
[45:11] Speaker 1: Would it be so that they can have a certain
[45:14] Speaker 1: effect on our reality?
[45:15] Speaker 2: I think with circles that used to be... There used
[45:21] Speaker 2: to be a lot in this area where I live now,
[45:23] Speaker 2: near Stonehenge, but there is a bit of a mundane
[45:27] Speaker 2: war because the farmers are sick to death of them, okay?
[45:31] Speaker 2: Because of the reason I said to you before, it's
[45:33] Speaker 2: not so much the damage that the circle makers make,
[45:35] Speaker 2: it's the damage that's made afterwards by the people that
[45:37] Speaker 2: go in and trespass and make a mess of their fields, okay?
[45:41] Speaker 2: But when they were more predominantly in these ancient sites...
[45:47] Speaker 2: there was an argument with a discussion within the crop
[45:50] Speaker 2: circle teams that I spoke to. And they, they, some
[45:53] Speaker 2: people felt that they were compelled to do this in
[45:56] Speaker 2: the same way that Roy Neary, Roy Neary was drawn
[45:59] Speaker 2: to devil's tower. They're compelled to, they've had a deep
[46:02] Speaker 2: seated interest in their paranormal since, since, since they were children.
[46:06] Speaker 2: And they've gone to make within these Neolithic sites. And
[46:10] Speaker 2: they say that they have to, to, to a smaller extent,
[46:14] Speaker 2: they say that they think that they've inherited the, the
[46:19] Speaker 2: attitudes of their ancestors who built in stone, okay? These
[46:23] Speaker 2: are what are called temporary, crop circles are temporary temples.
[46:28] Speaker 2: They're ethereal. They're only there for a few days or
[46:31] Speaker 2: a few weeks at most. But there's people that say
[46:35] Speaker 2: that the act of having a sigil or a certain
[46:40] Speaker 2: sacred pattern in a sacred area, and also what I
[46:44] Speaker 2: said to you before about the intent and the manifestation
[46:47] Speaker 2: and the exertion they say that they it amplifies the
[46:52] Speaker 2: energy that's already there and that our ancestors that made
[46:58] Speaker 2: these tumuli and these ancient neolithic monuments perhaps they were
[47:04] Speaker 2: markers to remind us had we forgotten and i think
[47:08] Speaker 2: we have forgotten all this stuff we've got we've got
[47:12] Speaker 2: monuments here that took a hundred years to build now
[47:15] Speaker 2: why would you go to the trouble of undertaking a
[47:18] Speaker 2: project that you know that only your grandchildren are going
[47:21] Speaker 2: to see completed. It's got to be pretty important, okay? So,
[47:27] Speaker 2: but as I said to you before, a lot of
[47:28] Speaker 2: the time the circle makers make these images and they
[47:32] Speaker 2: don't know the relevance until the internet tells them.
[47:36] Speaker 1: For a long time, there's been a lot of fear
[47:38] Speaker 1: associated with the unexplained and high strangeness. And in our
[47:43] Speaker 1: modern age, with the ease of access to the internet
[47:46] Speaker 1: and social media and people having the ability to post
[47:50] Speaker 1: their own theories and thoughts about the paranormal and their
[47:54] Speaker 1: own experiences, there's a growing number of people that are
[47:59] Speaker 1: adopting this Gnostic view of reality that we live in
[48:03] Speaker 1: some kind of prison reality. And all of these intelligences,
[48:08] Speaker 1: spirits beyond our perception, are here to feed off of
[48:13] Speaker 1: us and manage us and essentially keep us reincarnated in
[48:18] Speaker 1: the cycles that they can continue to keep us imprisoned here.
[48:22] Speaker 1: I think that's a very dark, bleak perspective, but more
[48:26] Speaker 1: and more researchers and colleagues are kind of adopting that view.
[48:32] Speaker 1: It seems to be a very bleak view, but What
[48:35] Speaker 1: are your thoughts on that emerging perspective of everything?
[48:39] Speaker 2: I think that where they might have it right is
[48:43] Speaker 2: that this phenomenon has been with us since our inception.
[48:52] Speaker 2: And what it tends to do is it manifests itself
[48:56] Speaker 2: depending on where we are within our evolution. And this
[48:59] Speaker 2: is why I said to you before, our ancestors were
[49:02] Speaker 2: seeing fairy lights, you know, they were seeing We're seeing UAPs,
[49:08] Speaker 2: we're seeing UFOs. It seems to be that with cultural tracking,
[49:11] Speaker 2: which was like a concept which was developed by Jacques Valle,
[49:15] Speaker 2: whatever this is, maybe gives the impression that it's 80
[49:20] Speaker 2: because it, it, it manifests itself depending on where we
[49:24] Speaker 2: are in our evolution. Now, I think it's really interesting.
[49:28] Speaker 2: I think it's really interesting as a ufologist that where's
[49:31] Speaker 2: the Nordics from the fifties. It's like trends and fashions
[49:35] Speaker 2: and they seem to, you know, where is the Nordics?
[49:38] Speaker 2: People are saying the greys now are just, some people
[49:41] Speaker 2: are saying the greys are just an interpretation of praying mantises. And,
[49:45] Speaker 2: you know, the phenomenon changes as fascism. And it's the
[49:49] Speaker 2: same with paranormality as well. There's paranormality from the 1920s
[49:53] Speaker 2: that isn't there anymore. It seems to be tracking us.
[49:56] Speaker 2: Do you understand?
[49:57] Speaker 1: Yes, 100%.
[49:58] Speaker 2: It does kind of tie in with that theory. Because
[50:05] Speaker 2: if it manifests as E.T. and it isn't E.T., Because
[50:11] Speaker 2: if you showed a spaceship to Henry VIII, he's not
[50:15] Speaker 2: going to say, that's a sleek spaceship. He's going to say,
[50:21] Speaker 2: that's the devil. It just tracks where we are.
[50:27] Speaker 1: I think on top of that, it also deals with
[50:30] Speaker 1: our perception, the way we view things, where we're at
[50:33] Speaker 1: personally with our mental, spiritual, and emotional states. The phenomenon
[50:38] Speaker 1: meets us there, whether we're fearful or not, or whether
[50:42] Speaker 1: we are in a certain negative emotional state, that is
[50:45] Speaker 1: how we're going to perceive what we're interacting with. And
[50:48] Speaker 1: it'll also dictate future interactions and how we perceive the
[50:52] Speaker 1: phenomena as a whole.
[50:54] Speaker 2: Absolutely right. Absolutely right. And with the Krupp circle phenomenon,
[50:59] Speaker 2: I'm sorry to say this again, but I've got to
[51:00] Speaker 2: say it once more. I'm really my lane on this.
[51:05] Speaker 2: I know I spoke about the bent, not broken nodules,
[51:07] Speaker 2: et cetera. It's kind of not my area of expertise.
[51:10] Speaker 2: So I want to stay in my lane. Okay. I did.
[51:13] Speaker 2: I'd advise your listeners to go and make your own,
[51:15] Speaker 2: their own researches on this because it's not really my lane.
[51:19] Speaker 2: And this subject, as you know, is populated by too
[51:22] Speaker 2: many people who talk about things that are outside of
[51:25] Speaker 2: their area of expertise. I don't want to be that guy. Okay.
[51:30] Speaker 2: What I'm saying is that I think that the synchronicity
[51:35] Speaker 2: and the interconnectivity elements of this phenomenon with human crop
[51:39] Speaker 2: circles are strong enough to be investigated in isolation, no
[51:46] Speaker 2: matter what you think about the rest of the crop circles.
[51:48] Speaker 2: But I do think with ufology, like you said before,
[51:53] Speaker 2: with all these areas that are converging now, we've got
[51:56] Speaker 2: one thing in common with ufology, with all of it.
[51:59] Speaker 2: and that is it's coming down. We've got all these
[52:03] Speaker 2: researchers now, and it's coming down to one thing, and
[52:06] Speaker 2: that's human consciousness. It's human consciousness. It's interconnectivity. It's how
[52:11] Speaker 2: the phenomenon interacts with us. I don't know in the book.
[52:15] Speaker 2: The only thing I couldn't get around to actually discovering
[52:18] Speaker 2: in the book, I tried and tried. I'm not sure
[52:21] Speaker 2: if we are interacting with each other through the sheldrake
[52:26] Speaker 2: species field or through like a google cloud you know
[52:29] Speaker 2: a supernatural google cloud or if there's something else at
[52:33] Speaker 2: play that's the only thing i don't know i sure
[52:37] Speaker 2: hope it's the first one you know.
[52:39] Speaker 1: In other words it could be all aspects of our
[52:42] Speaker 1: own consciousness archetypes imaginal egregores that we have created that
[52:48] Speaker 1: may have in a sense taken on a life of
[52:50] Speaker 1: their own in these extra dimensional realms and can then
[52:55] Speaker 1: turn and interact with us in some way, right?
[52:58] Speaker 2: Or they're real and we are interpreting them based on
[53:02] Speaker 2: where we are in, in our evolution. I think there's,
[53:05] Speaker 2: I think there's enough there for both arguments, but you see,
[53:10] Speaker 2: there's an important point here that there's, there's another crop
[53:12] Speaker 2: circle story that illustrates this with, there was a team
[53:18] Speaker 2: and they could, they did, they'd done the design. And one,
[53:21] Speaker 2: one member said, I want a big circle in that.
[53:24] Speaker 2: I want, I want to, I want to round it off.
[53:26] Speaker 2: I want it. I want it. I want to close
[53:27] Speaker 2: the thing off. And the rest of the team said, no,
[53:30] Speaker 2: we like it open. We like it not resolved. It's
[53:33] Speaker 2: like more of a quirky thing. They had an argument
[53:36] Speaker 2: about it. They were 50, 50. And in the end
[53:40] Speaker 2: they didn't do it. And the next day they went
[53:45] Speaker 2: to the circle and, And that extra component was in,
[53:48] Speaker 2: was in, was in the circle. It was that extra
[53:51] Speaker 2: component was part of the circle, but they hadn't made it. Okay.
[53:55] Speaker 2: Now there's an argument to say another team could have
[53:57] Speaker 2: come in afterwards. I doubt that very much because the,
[54:00] Speaker 2: the sun was coming up when they left the field,
[54:02] Speaker 2: but it's that whole thing. The fact that it was
[54:05] Speaker 2: discussed and then turned into a concept meant that it
[54:10] Speaker 2: was then real in a sense, you know, and then,
[54:15] Speaker 2: you know, that they, somebody said, well, you will, somebody said,
[54:19] Speaker 2: because you willed it on paper, you've manifested it into
[54:23] Speaker 2: the fields. And we don't know who did that. So
[54:26] Speaker 2: I can't with some of those additions, I certainly can't
[54:29] Speaker 2: explain it. And then that really does turn me into
[54:31] Speaker 2: looking at, you know, is there something else, you.
[54:34] Speaker 1: Know, are there often crop circles appearing still these days? Yeah.
[54:41] Speaker 2: We had about 25 this year. Oh, wow. Um, but,
[54:47] Speaker 2: the thing with the thing with the circles is you
[54:50] Speaker 2: can look at circles and you can say, it's like
[54:53] Speaker 2: Banksy or an artist. You can say, I've got a
[54:57] Speaker 2: pretty good idea who did that because it's got that
[55:01] Speaker 2: trademark in there. It's like, like a guitarist. It's that riff. Okay.
[55:05] Speaker 2: I know, I know he's played that riff and either
[55:09] Speaker 2: it's that guy or somebody else who's worked under him
[55:13] Speaker 2: and they've gone, and form their own teams. And then
[55:16] Speaker 2: they're using that trope until they've designed their own. Um,
[55:20] Speaker 2: so I can, but not, but I've not made a
[55:22] Speaker 2: circle for 10 years.
[55:23] Speaker 1: Okay.
[55:24] Speaker 2: So I really am out of the loop now. And, um,
[55:28] Speaker 2: as I said to you offline, I'm a, I'm a
[55:32] Speaker 2: journalist and I'm an author. And, um, I was never
[55:36] Speaker 2: in the premier league of circle makers. Mine were pretty basic. Okay.
[55:40] Speaker 2: But I've worked with a couple of the best of
[55:42] Speaker 2: the best, but it's, it just seemed that I was
[55:46] Speaker 2: perfectly placed to write this book because I had the
[55:48] Speaker 2: tools because I'm a published author anyway. And the, and
[55:50] Speaker 2: the circle, a few circle makers said to me, we
[55:54] Speaker 2: think you're the guy to do this because our voice
[55:57] Speaker 2: really hasn't been heard. And we think that you're the
[55:59] Speaker 2: guy to articulate it because apart from we've got, there's
[56:03] Speaker 2: a book just come out written by Andrew Parker called
[56:08] Speaker 2: connecting with the crop circle phenomena or something. And we've
[56:11] Speaker 2: got a resource called Circle Makers TV on YouTube. And
[56:16] Speaker 2: we've got another site called The Croppy. And in The Croppy,
[56:21] Speaker 2: there's a series called Circle Makers Speak where they talk
[56:24] Speaker 2: about every element of circle making. But our voice really
[56:28] Speaker 2: hasn't been heard up until now. There's like a soft
[56:31] Speaker 2: disclosure going on now. And I'm very careful not to
[56:35] Speaker 2: say which circles I've been involved with because... I don't
[56:40] Speaker 2: want to dispel the magic. It's not for me to
[56:43] Speaker 2: interrupt your journey and say, well, that one was man-made,
[56:46] Speaker 2: or that one wasn't. Well, I love it, man.
[56:51] Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing this information with us.
[56:54] Speaker 1: Last few minutes, I'd love to get your thoughts on
[56:57] Speaker 1: where we're at with UFO Disclosure, what's been coming out
[57:00] Speaker 1: from our own government and these quote-unquote whistleblowers. The information
[57:06] Speaker 1: that has come out about possible non-human biologics in our
[57:11] Speaker 1: possession and reverse engineered craft and our involvement with it.
[57:16] Speaker 1: Any thoughts on any of it?
[57:17] Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm afraid it's pessimistic. And that's because the optimistic,
[57:23] Speaker 2: the plus side is this. You and I, I've been
[57:27] Speaker 2: like deeply involved in this subject since the 80s and 90s.
[57:31] Speaker 2: And whereas my, my, my normal friends used to call me,
[57:35] Speaker 2: used to call me mad. Now they go, you know,
[57:38] Speaker 2: maybe there is something to this. You're 30 years too late, mate.
[57:42] Speaker 2: You know, but where I am with it is, um,
[57:45] Speaker 2: I saw, I saw you at VA lecture in 1992. And, um,
[57:52] Speaker 2: that's 34 years ago. And we were having that discussion.
[57:56] Speaker 2: We were having this discussion then. And VA said, not
[58:00] Speaker 2: in our lifetime. The public can't handle it. The public
[58:04] Speaker 2: aren't ready. And unfortunately, I think we're in the same
[58:08] Speaker 2: place now. I don't think there's enough awakened or open-minded
[58:12] Speaker 2: people in the world yet. That's where I am. Sorry.
[58:16] Speaker 1: Could it be possible that we just haven't reached a
[58:20] Speaker 1: level of consciousness, evolution, and understanding to fathom what we
[58:25] Speaker 1: are really dealing with? We wouldn't have a way to
[58:27] Speaker 1: explain it either way. J.
[58:30] Speaker 2: Allen Hynek. paraphrasing said even if we had the answer
[58:36] Speaker 2: we don't know what we're looking at we're not advanced
[58:38] Speaker 2: enough yeah and i think that is connected to spirituality
[58:41] Speaker 2: to be honest i think it's connected to where you
[58:45] Speaker 2: are spiritually i think spirituality and and connectivity is a
[58:49] Speaker 2: key to a lot of this it depends on how
[58:51] Speaker 2: mature how mature you are spiritually i think and we're
[58:56] Speaker 2: a long way away Yes, sir.
[58:58] Speaker 1: Dee, this was fantastic. Before we let you go, remind
[59:02] Speaker 1: the audience how they can pick up the book.
[59:04] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, forgot about that um it's called it can't
[59:08] Speaker 2: be people uh voices from the inner circle and the
[59:11] Speaker 2: reason why i called it it can't be people was
[59:13] Speaker 2: the first crop circle i ever walked in that was
[59:15] Speaker 2: really complicated i just looked around and went this can't
[59:18] Speaker 2: be people um so that's what that's why i called
[59:20] Speaker 2: it that but as i said to you yesterday um
[59:24] Speaker 2: i'm backed up with other projects now i'm leaving the
[59:27] Speaker 2: subject next week um I hope that demonstrates to you
[59:31] Speaker 2: more than anything that I'm not one of these grifter
[59:33] Speaker 2: types that is looking to go on the lecture. So
[59:36] Speaker 2: I'm out.
[59:36] Speaker 1: Okay.
[59:37] Speaker 2: I've got, I've got other projects. I'm backed up. This
[59:39] Speaker 2: has taken a lot of time, but the, the one
[59:42] Speaker 2: message I want to get across to you, to your
[59:43] Speaker 2: listeners is, um, there's something going on. Okay. And if
[59:49] Speaker 2: you want to section that away from your other beliefs,
[59:52] Speaker 2: that's fine. But there are human made circles here that
[59:56] Speaker 2: are worthy of investigation and In their own right. And
[1:00:01] Speaker 2: you can get the book on Amazon everywhere. Excellent.
[1:00:06] Speaker 1: Dee, thank you so much. I'd love to speak again
[1:00:08] Speaker 1: in the future. If you're ever going to touch on
[1:00:10] Speaker 1: these strange topics again, we'd love to have you back.
[1:00:13] Speaker 1: And until next time, everyone, have an excellent evening. We
[1:00:17] Speaker 1: will talk again tomorrow.
[1:00:18] Speaker 2: See y'all then.
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