# FKN Classics Double! Christian Köhlert - Matrix Paradoxes | Mark Weinstein - Surveillance Era

An episode of [Forbidden Knowledge News](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1470192028), 29 Jun 2026, 2 h 07 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72741676/classicskmst_sd_360p_medium_fr30_29062026.mp3

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## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Enjoy these back to back classic Forbidden Knowledge News episodes. Today,
[0:06] Speaker 1: I want to welcome Christian Celert. He is a media artist, author,
[0:11] Speaker 1: and practitioner of creative homeopathy. His book and research focuses
[0:16] Speaker 1: on the nature of reality and possibility that we are
[0:20] Speaker 1: indeed living in a simulation. Christian, welcome, How you doing
[0:26] Speaker 1: doing well?
[0:27] Speaker 2: Thank you very much for the invitation.
[0:29] Speaker 1: Yes, welcome. I'm very much looking forward to this. I
[0:33] Speaker 1: really enjoy your work. What we're going to be discussing
[0:36] Speaker 1: today is something that I think we're collectively trying to
[0:40] Speaker 1: gain an understanding of the nature of our reality, and
[0:43] Speaker 1: we relate things usually to our current understandings. Right now,
[0:48] Speaker 1: we're in a technological age, and there are many that
[0:51] Speaker 1: consider our reality to be closer to a computer simulation
[0:56] Speaker 1: than anything else at this time. I find these theories
[0:59] Speaker 1: fast and very plausible, but I also have a spiritual
[1:04] Speaker 1: perspective that may have similar implications to a simulated reality.
[1:09] Speaker 1: But I'm really looking forward to learning more about your theories.
[1:13] Speaker 1: But this is your first time on. Tell us a
[1:15] Speaker 1: little bit about yourself, your journey, what brought you to
[1:19] Speaker 1: this work.
[1:23] Speaker 2: Well, yeah, as we call it in the alternative media
[1:27] Speaker 2: or The true for movement, right is waking up, is
[1:31] Speaker 2: waking up moments that we experience, you know. And my
[1:36] Speaker 2: waking up moment was ninet eleven. Obviously something didn't feel right,
[1:41] Speaker 2: and the deeper I was digging into it, I realized, Okay,
[1:45] Speaker 2: there's a big lie that is collectively told. Everybody seems
[1:50] Speaker 2: to be on it, and if they lie about this,
[1:53] Speaker 2: then you probably lie about many other things things I
[1:57] Speaker 2: learned at school and about reality. Eventually that came up
[2:00] Speaker 2: later as well. So I started off with that, and
[2:05] Speaker 2: of course I started reading books. Back in the days,
[2:08] Speaker 2: there was no telegram or YouTube in the sense as
[2:12] Speaker 2: we have it right now, so I was reading all
[2:15] Speaker 2: kinds of stuff. I was reading basically what you would
[2:19] Speaker 2: consider that David Iyke of Germany, this is young Van Hesing.
[2:23] Speaker 2: But later I also got the books of David Dyke,
[2:25] Speaker 2: so that already got me into this. Okay, there is
[2:29] Speaker 2: more than the physical realm, but basically, okay, there is
[2:32] Speaker 2: something going on. We are in a big deception here
[2:36] Speaker 2: one way lad another. And I was so interested in
[2:40] Speaker 2: that that I became part of the alternative media scene.
[2:43] Speaker 2: And at that point there was an online television channel.
[2:48] Speaker 2: Way before YouTube became popular. It was called Secret TV,
[2:52] Speaker 2: and I became I became a chief editor of that.
[2:56] Speaker 2: So and then this realm. There were so many other
[3:00] Speaker 2: interesting people. We have other editors or people that contributed
[3:04] Speaker 2: content and invited interesting people with their concepts and so on.
[3:11] Speaker 2: And I got puzzled pieces from all over the place.
[3:14] Speaker 2: And you know, some you can immediately put it in
[3:17] Speaker 2: into your bigger picture. Some things you just put aside
[3:21] Speaker 2: and say, oh, interesting, I see there is some reasoning
[3:24] Speaker 2: behind it, but I don't see like it in a
[3:27] Speaker 2: bigger picture yet. So now that was my introduction into
[3:32] Speaker 2: the whole thing, and from there on it got wild
[3:36] Speaker 2: weasel all over the place.
[3:38] Speaker 1: Well, were there any profoundly specific events that led you
[3:42] Speaker 1: to write the matrix hypothesis?
[3:47] Speaker 2: Ah? Yeah, that is actually like, I mean, the notion
[3:52] Speaker 2: that we are living in an kind of virtual construct.
[3:57] Speaker 2: I'm not past the simulation theorist. You have to acknowledge
[4:01] Speaker 2: simulation theory because it's a logic thing to look at it.
[4:05] Speaker 2: You know that our reality could be something that is
[4:10] Speaker 2: done in a quantum computer. Maybe that is definitely a
[4:17] Speaker 2: path you can go. But I got introduced into that
[4:21] Speaker 2: also on a spiritual level, I got first introduced into
[4:24] Speaker 2: Vedic philosophy and the concept of maya. You know if
[4:30] Speaker 2: my first idol for my second book was actually the
[4:35] Speaker 2: Maya hypothesis, But then my German publishers said, you know,
[4:40] Speaker 2: people see that in a shell. Then they say, okay,
[4:42] Speaker 2: it's about the Central American ancient culture, so they don't
[4:48] Speaker 2: have the association with the Vedic or the Sanskrit term maya,
[4:54] Speaker 2: which means basically the cosmic illusion. So I knew about
[5:00] Speaker 2: that that from this ancient philosophy, reality is considered an illusion.
[5:08] Speaker 2: You know, it's made by the singularity, the Brahman and
[5:12] Speaker 2: all the individual practals of this oneness play a game
[5:17] Speaker 2: in here called Adman's you know Adman. I don't know
[5:21] Speaker 2: if this is a term in rural anyhow. So I
[5:26] Speaker 2: already was into this, and then I got people into
[5:29] Speaker 2: my life that were really deeply concerned in science. One
[5:36] Speaker 2: of them is the Top Words. He's a German author
[5:39] Speaker 2: and he was one of the pioneers that saw, look,
[5:44] Speaker 2: what is described in the ancient Texan and ancient wisdom
[5:48] Speaker 2: teaching is something we can also address just from a
[5:51] Speaker 2: different angle, which is a scientific angle. So that was
[5:56] Speaker 2: a movie we made in two thousand and nine. It
[5:58] Speaker 2: was called Revolution twenty twelve, and out of that was
[6:04] Speaker 2: like a remix, that's what's called solar Revolution. And yeah,
[6:11] Speaker 2: and then we already addressed back then that reality is
[6:15] Speaker 2: a kind of simulation, and that simulation hypothesis or simulation
[6:20] Speaker 2: theory as we have today is a great analogy. It
[6:25] Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily mean we are in a physical construct in
[6:31] Speaker 2: a sense that you know we are, you know, we
[6:34] Speaker 2: are an artificial reality. But somewhere outside of that there
[6:37] Speaker 2: is a computer, quantum computer, which is made of atoms
[6:40] Speaker 2: and physical stuff, and that just just generates our reality.
[6:44] Speaker 2: But it's a great analogy for our conceptual mind to
[6:49] Speaker 2: get a grasp on that.
[6:51] Speaker 1: I agree with you on so many points on that,
[6:54] Speaker 1: especially instead of looking at the way our modern technology
[6:59] Speaker 1: operates ai computer systems, that we should be looking for
[7:04] Speaker 1: answers from our ancient past and the understandings that they had.
[7:09] Speaker 1: That's what you did. You looked at the Vedic scriptures,
[7:12] Speaker 1: to her Meticism, to Platonics. Tell us a little bit
[7:17] Speaker 1: about what you found in these ancient texts that could
[7:20] Speaker 1: indicate that our reality is more of a spiritual matrix.
[7:30] Speaker 2: Well, of course, the ancient didn't have this analogy or
[7:34] Speaker 2: this symbolism. I mean, the universe seems to reflect itself,
[7:39] Speaker 2: you know, in fractals, in small things. That doesn't mean
[7:42] Speaker 2: it the small thing that is presented to us within
[7:45] Speaker 2: the matrix meaning simulations. That doesn't mean that our reality
[7:50] Speaker 2: is the simulation. But it gives us a close approximate.
[7:54] Speaker 2: So we especially at the age at the HBr right now,
[7:59] Speaker 2: the end of a So maybe that is to help
[8:02] Speaker 2: us to understand where we are in and who we
[8:07] Speaker 2: are in a bigger context of things. And of course,
[8:10] Speaker 2: I guess if if Platon, for example, Platon you would
[8:15] Speaker 2: say in English, if we wouldn't have had his cave
[8:19] Speaker 2: anology to make his people understand this, this reality is
[8:23] Speaker 2: not reality, but we are just looking at the shadows
[8:27] Speaker 2: at the wall, he would probably use something different. He
[8:31] Speaker 2: would probably also use like look, imagine people are growing
[8:35] Speaker 2: up with a headset on, you know, like like this
[8:39] Speaker 2: virtual reality headset on the on their heads, and they
[8:42] Speaker 2: never experienced something different, so they believe that the reality
[8:46] Speaker 2: they perceive in their virtual reality reality headsets is what
[8:50] Speaker 2: they what reality is. But once you take it off,
[8:53] Speaker 2: it's like going out of the cave. And then you
[8:56] Speaker 2: realize there's much more than just what has been you know,
[9:01] Speaker 2: made you believe as reality. But of course he didn't
[9:04] Speaker 2: have virtual realities as in a knowlogy to make people understand.
[9:08] Speaker 2: So he used the cave anology, which is probably one
[9:11] Speaker 2: of the most profound ideas at this point and it
[9:16] Speaker 2: deeply influenced Western philosophy even today. To answer your question,
[9:22] Speaker 2: I can't give you anything specific. As I said, there
[9:26] Speaker 2: is no technology reference in the ancient You might interpreted
[9:32] Speaker 2: many things in a technological sense, but from the beginning
[9:37] Speaker 2: it always has been a spiritual thing. But we'll be
[9:41] Speaker 2: talking about terms, you know, terms like spirituality technology from
[9:46] Speaker 2: the understanding, or natural or artificial. That's a good thing, right,
[9:50] Speaker 2: So we look at this tree, it's a natural thing.
[9:53] Speaker 2: We look at this building or this car, it's artificial.
[9:57] Speaker 2: But looking from outside of the construct, whatever, it is
[10:02] Speaker 2: a spiritual thing, a mind constructed the Brahma in order
[10:06] Speaker 2: to infinite creat or created to experience it itself. Everything
[10:11] Speaker 2: is made of the same substance, if you will. It's
[10:15] Speaker 2: so artificial and natural. It's just a perspective we have
[10:20] Speaker 2: within the construct because we see that it has different
[10:23] Speaker 2: qualities to us. But in the end, all these terms
[10:27] Speaker 2: are very limited.
[10:29] Speaker 1: You know, I'd love to get your thoughts on some
[10:32] Speaker 1: of the things that we've experienced throughout history, such as
[10:37] Speaker 1: encounters with non human intelligences, experiences that transcend the physical,
[10:44] Speaker 1: contact experiences receiving cosmic information, contact with angels and demons.
[10:53] Speaker 1: What do you consider this to be messengers of the matrix?
[10:58] Speaker 1: Are they part of the system? Are they part of
[11:00] Speaker 1: our consciousness?
[11:03] Speaker 2: It's a good question. It's always a yeah. It's how
[11:08] Speaker 2: you look at it makes the difference, right if you
[11:11] Speaker 2: if you see it all in singularity, meaning that the
[11:15] Speaker 2: one is behind all of that. I mean, there's just
[11:19] Speaker 2: one consciousness, like an ocean that divides itself into little
[11:24] Speaker 2: you know, the little drops of water that travel their
[11:28] Speaker 2: own way, but they are still part of this singularity,
[11:32] Speaker 2: and the whatever journey each and everyone takes, it will
[11:37] Speaker 2: come back to this one becoming the one ocean again.
[11:41] Speaker 2: So if you look at that there is just one consciousness,
[11:44] Speaker 2: there's actually just one person sitting here experiencing ourselves in
[11:48] Speaker 2: this density and this matrics or maya as two separate beings.
[11:54] Speaker 2: But in the end, there's just one consciousness. And of
[11:57] Speaker 2: course from this point of view, you could say aliens
[12:00] Speaker 2: and whatever intervenes in here, I would not say aliens.
[12:05] Speaker 2: I would basically always say it's interdimensional beings and they
[12:11] Speaker 2: are part of our consciousness. But on the greater if you,
[12:16] Speaker 2: you know, take this, what happens here in a sense
[12:19] Speaker 2: of this is our reality at least, even if it's
[12:22] Speaker 2: an illusion, it's our daily experience. And if I make
[12:25] Speaker 2: contact with those beings, which I also have my own
[12:29] Speaker 2: experience with that not into depth like some other people
[12:33] Speaker 2: might have. But then of course there is in within
[12:38] Speaker 2: this dualistic realm, we have the third density, as do
[12:42] Speaker 2: or material would refer to or hidden hand. Then there
[12:46] Speaker 2: is a deep, deeply embedded dualistic thing. So of course
[12:51] Speaker 2: those beings coming in can be beneficial to us, teaching
[12:54] Speaker 2: us some understanding. But also there are other beings coming
[12:58] Speaker 2: in whying you know, like to this, you know, bring
[13:04] Speaker 2: more distortions or guide us of course. So yeah, so
[13:11] Speaker 2: in a way, definitely there is influence from that, and we,
[13:15] Speaker 2: I guess, we are tested on our discernment whether we
[13:19] Speaker 2: take help if there is real help available. But real
[13:24] Speaker 2: help is always help for self help, never like okay,
[13:28] Speaker 2: just eat popcorn, and we beam you up. I guess
[13:31] Speaker 2: that's not the reason for the game. And on the
[13:36] Speaker 2: other side, there is no question about that there are
[13:40] Speaker 2: dark or entities arcons as you would call them, in
[13:47] Speaker 2: and the Agnostic tradition that are also playing on this
[13:52] Speaker 2: field here.
[13:54] Speaker 1: Since you mentioned the Gnostic tradition and the arcons, I
[13:58] Speaker 1: have a very similar under standing of the nature of
[14:01] Speaker 1: reality that is all part of our consciousness, that it's
[14:05] Speaker 1: here to guide us, and we learn from the polarities
[14:08] Speaker 1: of light and dark no matter what they are here
[14:12] Speaker 1: for our I guess you could say spiritual evolution. But
[14:16] Speaker 1: some modern understandings of narcissism talk about how we are
[14:23] Speaker 1: trapped in this reality and the archons are jailers, are
[14:28] Speaker 1: rulers that keep us here and feed off of our energy.
[14:31] Speaker 1: I don't share that perspective, but it's become a popular
[14:35] Speaker 1: emerging perspective amongst many people who are looking into this stuff.
[14:39] Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on that and how do you
[14:43] Speaker 1: relate gnosissism to this matrix hypothesis.
[14:51] Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm aware, and I also talked about it in
[14:54] Speaker 2: my book. Because you have to talk about it like
[14:57] Speaker 2: you have to talk about to me. Nation theory, as
[15:01] Speaker 2: Bostroom or others suggested. So I'm aware there's this notion
[15:07] Speaker 2: that we are trapped in here and that there are
[15:10] Speaker 2: dark entities doing their work to make sure it stays
[15:16] Speaker 2: that way is not necessarily wrong, but it's also not.
[15:21] Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that this is the full picture. So
[15:25] Speaker 2: of course, if you're playing a game, no matter what
[15:28] Speaker 2: game it is, it doesn't it's not necessarily needs to
[15:31] Speaker 2: be a game. You watch a Bond movie or whatever
[15:34] Speaker 2: movie where there is a hero, you can't have that
[15:38] Speaker 2: story without a villain. You don't have to. You can't
[15:41] Speaker 2: have that story with some kind of obstacle that pushes
[15:44] Speaker 2: against it. If it would be so easy to get
[15:47] Speaker 2: out of the matrix, of course no one would be here.
[15:49] Speaker 2: Probably they would say, what a boring, boring game. So
[15:53] Speaker 2: of course you need to have some negative force to
[15:59] Speaker 2: have this game here. So they serve their their role
[16:04] Speaker 2: here and they're not I'm sure they are here. But
[16:07] Speaker 2: if you it's also a question how much you permit
[16:12] Speaker 2: them to manipulate into your life. And that's a whole
[16:16] Speaker 2: different different story about whereas your own vibration. So it's
[16:23] Speaker 2: it's like here, you know your your your shields. Your
[16:27] Speaker 2: your shield that keeps them away is where are your
[16:31] Speaker 2: own faults? How love loving are them? Are your faults?
[16:35] Speaker 2: And how how much you see the unity and everything
[16:39] Speaker 2: or how you how much are you separated by all
[16:42] Speaker 2: these programs into Party A or Party B, this whole
[16:46] Speaker 2: polarization of we against them. And so there's if you
[16:53] Speaker 2: are into those programs, if you already got got caught,
[16:56] Speaker 2: then it's easy for them to attach, but for them
[16:59] Speaker 2: to attach on you and facilitate even more manipulation. So
[17:06] Speaker 2: that's right. So the story Gnostics, you can say it
[17:09] Speaker 2: is right, but it's not the full story.
[17:12] Speaker 1: Let's take a look at some of the things that
[17:14] Speaker 1: have been observed and people can observe for themselves, such
[17:18] Speaker 1: as strange anomalies like the Mandela effect paradoxes throughout history.
[17:26] Speaker 1: What is your understanding of what is happening with these
[17:28] Speaker 1: strange paradoxes.
[17:32] Speaker 2: Yeah, that, yeah, the Mandela and particularly was part of
[17:39] Speaker 2: of the book. You need to discuss that, of course.
[17:43] Speaker 2: And yeah, I experienced that myself on a personal level,
[17:47] Speaker 2: not in you know, like oh yeah, I also watched
[17:50] Speaker 2: as a kid Star Wars and realized, oh it's not
[17:54] Speaker 2: I'm your father anymore. Yeah, or kluek, I'm your father.
[17:58] Speaker 2: So it's pretty much the same, like in the German version,
[18:03] Speaker 2: or my my favorite one with the with the brackets
[18:07] Speaker 2: of Lucy in an moon Breaker talking about Bond movies.
[18:13] Speaker 2: So that's that's my favorite because at the time I
[18:15] Speaker 2: watched it consciously, I had brackets myself, and I was
[18:19] Speaker 2: just thinking about how those who would how it would
[18:23] Speaker 2: look like if they start kissing, you know, what kind
[18:26] Speaker 2: of entanglement could happen there. So so I you know,
[18:29] Speaker 2: so I had a really strong association. Right now, I
[18:33] Speaker 2: see there are no braces anymore with with Lucy. I
[18:36] Speaker 2: guess it was her name. Yeah, so something is wrong.
[18:42] Speaker 2: And I also experienced on personal levels. So what we
[18:45] Speaker 2: can deduct from that is it's like, yeah, there are
[18:51] Speaker 2: manipulation within the matrics all the time, to a degree
[18:56] Speaker 2: that we don't usually notice it. So there are edits
[19:01] Speaker 2: that because the whole construct is full of paradoxes, you
[19:06] Speaker 2: already seed it on a scientific level, the wave particle
[19:10] Speaker 2: duality for example, or the other things that happened there
[19:14] Speaker 2: little castal effects with the layed Choy quantom eraser experiment.
[19:19] Speaker 2: If you really you know, if you're brainy and that direction,
[19:24] Speaker 2: and you really want to get nut that on a
[19:27] Speaker 2: scientific level, you want to just get the paradoxes. Really,
[19:35] Speaker 2: you like to make your own investigations. Then start with
[19:40] Speaker 2: those weird experiments where things happen that are paradoxes and
[19:46] Speaker 2: we cannot explain.
[19:48] Speaker 1: You also write about some historical paradoxes. Could you give
[19:52] Speaker 1: a couple of examples that folks can go and research themselves.
[20:00] Speaker 2: I mean, people are fighting over paradoxes. Let's take the
[20:05] Speaker 2: standard discussion that we have in alternative circles. Is the
[20:10] Speaker 2: earth flat or is it round? The thing is it
[20:16] Speaker 2: can be both at the same time, depending on how
[20:19] Speaker 2: it is rendered. I'm using terminology that you know from
[20:23] Speaker 2: computer games. How it is individual rendered, And of course
[20:27] Speaker 2: we are co creators as as all these individual pieces
[20:34] Speaker 2: or fractals of the one. We have also the ability
[20:38] Speaker 2: to create our reality band probabilities. And of course if
[20:42] Speaker 2: I have the notion the earth is flat, then I
[20:46] Speaker 2: automatically attract evidences and circumstances that make me even more
[20:51] Speaker 2: believe in this in this idea. If I'm the other
[20:55] Speaker 2: way around, then you know the usual guy. Of course,
[20:58] Speaker 2: you're living on a spinning thing in space. So then
[21:02] Speaker 2: of course you will always be get information or perception
[21:10] Speaker 2: that is yeah, that works with it.
[21:16] Speaker 1: And this could also fit into the possibility that our
[21:21] Speaker 1: timeline as a whole shifts and what has occurred in
[21:27] Speaker 1: our history is malleable and subject to change, things like tartaria,
[21:33] Speaker 1: mud flood, certain cyclical resets. It seems like we have
[21:36] Speaker 1: different understandings of these as time goes on, and the
[21:41] Speaker 1: actual historical documentation at times seems to change absolutely.
[21:48] Speaker 2: That would be my next classical example. History in general
[21:53] Speaker 2: is not what we think from my perspective, it's not
[21:56] Speaker 2: like a linear evolution of time, and that is one
[22:01] Speaker 2: crisp thing. No it is, and it's happening all the time,
[22:06] Speaker 2: and so there are paradoxes and overlapping timelines, at least
[22:10] Speaker 2: from the evidence we can still we can have hold on,
[22:17] Speaker 2: you know, we can look up in the Internet or
[22:19] Speaker 2: different books or whatever. But what really happened in the
[22:22] Speaker 2: past is part of the projection or part of the
[22:26] Speaker 2: simulation or these are all terms that come from simulation hypothesis.
[22:32] Speaker 2: But you know, but I guess reality as a spiritual
[22:37] Speaker 2: construct works on the same level or with the same
[22:41] Speaker 2: kind of means or mechanism. So yeah, so I wouldn't
[22:47] Speaker 2: I would I have of course, if we talk about history,
[22:52] Speaker 2: I have my own thing or my own history or
[22:55] Speaker 2: idea about history, which I think makes most sense. But
[22:59] Speaker 2: I not discuss with anyone when he comes up with
[23:02] Speaker 2: new evidence. And look, if you look at this book
[23:05] Speaker 2: and that book, then it's a whole different twist. And
[23:07] Speaker 2: I would say, yes, this reality could also be happening
[23:12] Speaker 2: at the same time or this past. But the past
[23:15] Speaker 2: is like it's part of the illusion. And instead of
[23:22] Speaker 2: if we can learn something from the past, whatever past
[23:25] Speaker 2: we see or we feel is the most probable past
[23:30] Speaker 2: that from our research, if you can learn something from that, fine,
[23:35] Speaker 2: But this whole game a play, you know, fighting over
[23:39] Speaker 2: over a or b version of reality is around or
[23:43] Speaker 2: is it plaid? You know, where does it really help
[23:46] Speaker 2: us to proceed in our spiritual evolution other than okay,
[23:50] Speaker 2: I'm right, you're wrong. Okay, So I allow if someone
[23:56] Speaker 2: has a totally different reality than I have, I say,
[24:00] Speaker 2: fair enough, this is in a construct. It can all
[24:03] Speaker 2: happen and be valid at the same time without me
[24:08] Speaker 2: feeling the necessity to have a discussion here or to
[24:11] Speaker 2: have a fight over it. We can say, Okay, I
[24:14] Speaker 2: see it like this, you say it like that. Okay, fine,
[24:17] Speaker 2: maybe we find a middle ground to it. And mostly
[24:20] Speaker 2: talking about the construct understanding that reality is not as
[24:24] Speaker 2: physical as we think, and so is history. You know
[24:28] Speaker 2: that is theses anti tises is usually the synthesis that
[24:33] Speaker 2: brings us to kind of unification of understanding would be
[24:37] Speaker 2: the best way to go.
[24:39] Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about what people experience during
[24:42] Speaker 1: altered states, dreams, psychedelic experiences. I've had my own psychedelic
[24:48] Speaker 1: experiences that help me become aware that our reality is
[24:55] Speaker 1: much much more than we've ever been told and the
[24:59] Speaker 1: malleable name nature of it. It also helped me understand
[25:02] Speaker 1: some of the concepts that you're talking about, how our
[25:04] Speaker 1: perspective forms our reality. But do you think when we
[25:08] Speaker 1: are in these altered states that we are accessing a
[25:12] Speaker 1: level of the matrix that isn't normally accessible?
[25:20] Speaker 2: Well, normally, I guess it's all accessible all the time.
[25:24] Speaker 2: Now is the question where are the inhibitors within us
[25:28] Speaker 2: that don't allow it so, And of course you can
[25:31] Speaker 2: bypass those inhibitors by using psychedelics. I have my own
[25:36] Speaker 2: experience and now That's how I structured the book. I said, look,
[25:41] Speaker 2: there is some ancient wisdom teaching that talks about that,
[25:45] Speaker 2: and it's also you find it in the the Aboriginies
[25:51] Speaker 2: and their concept of dream time that the reality is
[25:54] Speaker 2: some kind of as they would say, it is the
[25:58] Speaker 2: kind of stable dream. But still it's a dreams a
[26:03] Speaker 2: it's a mental construct. So then people say, well, I'm
[26:06] Speaker 2: not so much into these old wisdom teachings and whatever
[26:09] Speaker 2: those people in ancient times whatever kind of ideas to
[26:13] Speaker 2: climb across. So I'm more scientific guys, and okay, go
[26:16] Speaker 2: with science. But that's also not what everybody likes because
[26:21] Speaker 2: they just don't understand it or it's too complicated. And
[26:24] Speaker 2: some people say, is you know, since twenty twenty, I
[26:26] Speaker 2: don't like, you know, trust and science. I'm done with that, right,
[26:30] Speaker 2: So what is the last thing that remains is your
[26:35] Speaker 2: personal experience? And usually on a daily base, we don't
[26:39] Speaker 2: have too many experiences that go into this trans personal realm,
[26:44] Speaker 2: something totally out of the ordinary. But still most people
[26:51] Speaker 2: have synchronicity, something that you know Sicky Young described and
[27:00] Speaker 2: you know, first time I read Young was like, wow, revelation.
[27:04] Speaker 2: Now I finally have a term for these weird coincidences
[27:08] Speaker 2: that happened in my life. So it's a term for it.
[27:10] Speaker 2: It's called synchronicities. Okay, cool, And you know how you
[27:15] Speaker 2: have some weird coincidences that you say, it's my chance.
[27:21] Speaker 2: But you know, the more that you're focused and the
[27:24] Speaker 2: more that you know you are more aware about what's
[27:29] Speaker 2: happening in your surroundings and that your consciousness has a
[27:34] Speaker 2: feedback loop with what is presented to you, the more
[27:38] Speaker 2: you at tracked synchronicities. And sometimes I had I described
[27:41] Speaker 2: a few synchronicities I had in my life in the
[27:44] Speaker 2: book that convinced me because those synchronicities were like the
[27:49] Speaker 2: whole universe conspiring behind my back to make this weird
[27:54] Speaker 2: thing happen. So so that that's bare of any ration
[28:01] Speaker 2: understanding how things like that happen. That is the you know,
[28:06] Speaker 2: this is the lowest level of understanding or experience you
[28:11] Speaker 2: can have that defies the normal Cartesian or rational four
[28:18] Speaker 2: dimensional space time understanding that the materialists have. But then
[28:24] Speaker 2: of course it goes deeper than that. You could have
[28:26] Speaker 2: an accident and an out of body or near death experience.
[28:30] Speaker 2: And one of the most important work is the book
[28:34] Speaker 2: of him Vanlomalies and Dutch cardio. It's a bad word
[28:41] Speaker 2: for me in English cardiologist a guy yeah, working on
[28:46] Speaker 2: the heart. So of course his patients used to be
[28:49] Speaker 2: you know, it's just part of the game that they
[28:53] Speaker 2: enter the near death experience realm, and they all experience
[28:58] Speaker 2: pretty much the same, you know, the same things is
[29:00] Speaker 2: out of body and and realizing you don't need a
[29:03] Speaker 2: brain to think, you don't need eyes to see, and
[29:07] Speaker 2: you can move through walls, you can see outside of
[29:10] Speaker 2: the hospital. You can actually, you know, go wherever you want,
[29:14] Speaker 2: just by by a thought, and you can experience and
[29:17] Speaker 2: see very detailed what what's happening there. And many times
[29:24] Speaker 2: they could have found out that yes, indeed what you
[29:29] Speaker 2: what you what you saw was not just an illusion,
[29:31] Speaker 2: what it was actually there. And of course you can
[29:35] Speaker 2: you can train yourself to do that without being physically
[29:40] Speaker 2: or close to physical death. So there are many experience
[29:44] Speaker 2: with psychedelics, you can name them all from ayahuasca is
[29:49] Speaker 2: the free letter stuff that I don't want to mention here,
[29:55] Speaker 2: or my my personal favorite is no substances at all.
[30:00] Speaker 2: Of course, you can meditate for for decades in a
[30:03] Speaker 2: in a in some cave somewhere in Himalaya, and you
[30:09] Speaker 2: might have that on a daily basis. But the best
[30:13] Speaker 2: way for me to experience trans personal realms for the
[30:20] Speaker 2: average show is holotropic breathwork, the one that was developed
[30:27] Speaker 2: by Stani's love Grove. He was he worked together with
[30:32] Speaker 2: Barbarandas what was his real name, Richard Alpert and Leary
[30:37] Speaker 2: in the sixties with the three letter substance and they
[30:42] Speaker 2: all went different ways and growth. He developed this technique
[30:47] Speaker 2: which is nothing new because the Aborigines know about it
[30:52] Speaker 2: and the Vedic transitions to talk about Grana Yama the placer.
[30:56] Speaker 2: You know, Khana the live force and Yama the breath,
[31:00] Speaker 2: and if you bring that together then you can have
[31:02] Speaker 2: very intense trans personal experience. And if you put that
[31:06] Speaker 2: all in a Western framework, then you have a holotropic breathwork.
[31:15] Speaker 2: And that is something that I experienced myself, very deep
[31:19] Speaker 2: realizations and visiting other places, other planets, and I saw
[31:25] Speaker 2: other people experiencing the same thing, not right away. Probably
[31:32] Speaker 2: some do you, but you need some time for that
[31:35] Speaker 2: as well. But that is probably the most safe and
[31:38] Speaker 2: the most effective, safe and effectively like that way to
[31:44] Speaker 2: get spiritual or deeper spiritual experience where you get into
[31:49] Speaker 2: the depth of your being and you bring all this
[31:53] Speaker 2: shadow work is the primary use for that. It's not like, okay,
[31:58] Speaker 2: we take some letters and have some fun at the beach. Now,
[32:03] Speaker 2: It's meant to make deep internal work, resolve all these inhibitors,
[32:08] Speaker 2: these imprints based on trauma that you experience in this
[32:13] Speaker 2: life and past life, and so becoming more free to
[32:17] Speaker 2: express yourself and also access different realms or different spectrum
[32:23] Speaker 2: of reality.
[32:24] Speaker 1: You mentioned synchronicity, and for me it was through meditation
[32:29] Speaker 1: and psychedelics that I was able to connect with synchronicities
[32:33] Speaker 1: in my reality. They became a sort of leading force
[32:38] Speaker 1: for me to follow my path. Once you become aware
[32:43] Speaker 1: of these synchronicities, they can be extremely powerful, extremely beneficial
[32:49] Speaker 1: as well as I think certain numbers that we see
[32:52] Speaker 1: and it can appear through different means.
[32:55] Speaker 2: But what is your.
[32:56] Speaker 1: Understanding of the mechanism of this synchronicity. Is it to
[33:01] Speaker 1: give us messages that we are indeed on the right
[33:04] Speaker 1: path or maybe we're doing something wrong. It is to
[33:07] Speaker 1: make us become aware of an action in our lives, right.
[33:13] Speaker 2: I think it has multiple purposes. Once in a while
[33:17] Speaker 2: it comes just to give you confidence that you're on
[33:22] Speaker 2: the right path because maybe you're struggling, maybe you don't
[33:25] Speaker 2: know if this adventure you just got yourself into is
[33:30] Speaker 2: the right way to go, and synchronicities come up and
[33:33] Speaker 2: just give you a little hint, no worries. This is
[33:37] Speaker 2: your path, You're you're on it. That's also I think
[33:40] Speaker 2: young himself interpreted that it like this, that you on
[33:46] Speaker 2: your ideal path to you know, whatever your soul has
[33:53] Speaker 2: decided what it you know, wanted to do in this lifetime.
[33:58] Speaker 2: On the other hand, of course, might be something that
[34:01] Speaker 2: makes you aware of something specific, something you even have
[34:05] Speaker 2: to work on that you might make yourself conscious, or
[34:11] Speaker 2: something you need to integrate into your current development. There
[34:16] Speaker 2: are many things, so I wouldn't put it in just
[34:18] Speaker 2: one box. But I always believe that it's a very
[34:22] Speaker 2: positive nature behind that. It's a positive guidance of your
[34:27] Speaker 2: higher self, if you will, that that tries to communicate,
[34:32] Speaker 2: and some people have, you know, an affinity to numbers,
[34:37] Speaker 2: so that the higher self might communicate through numbers, repeating
[34:43] Speaker 2: pattern of numbers or other repeating pattern. So you develop
[34:49] Speaker 2: actually a very personal communication with whatever this higher self
[34:55] Speaker 2: is and how it subtly gives you information through synchronicities,
[35:03] Speaker 2: so I wouldn't put you know, if someone says, okay,
[35:05] Speaker 2: synchronicityes this and that for me, that's you know, probably
[35:09] Speaker 2: it all works at the same time.
[35:11] Speaker 1: Because there are powerful groups that may have knowledge beyond
[35:17] Speaker 1: what we're even discussing about how the nature of reality works.
[35:22] Speaker 1: Do you think that there are powerful groups that are
[35:25] Speaker 1: taking advantage of the mechanics of the matrix to try
[35:29] Speaker 1: and steer society in certain directions and affect certain outcomes.
[35:37] Speaker 2: Certainly, no question about it. So there are powerful groups there.
[35:41] Speaker 2: Now we like to discuss who are those powerful groups.
[35:45] Speaker 2: And usually what we can talk about is the best
[35:51] Speaker 2: of the middle management. I mean, if you talk about
[35:53] Speaker 2: non governmental organizations like World Economic for build up, build
[35:58] Speaker 2: up a group or isn't that those are from my
[36:03] Speaker 2: point of view, just the middle management that you know,
[36:06] Speaker 2: relays certain information to the public or to the politician
[36:12] Speaker 2: first and then first on. But above that are usually
[36:18] Speaker 2: sacred societies, and the deeper you look in that it's
[36:21] Speaker 2: it's I mean that many people came up with trying
[36:26] Speaker 2: to figure out who is where in the packing order,
[36:30] Speaker 2: But I guess we'll never find out and it's it's
[36:35] Speaker 2: no use. You have to understand as a negative force
[36:39] Speaker 2: working from outside of the construct because all these secret societies,
[36:45] Speaker 2: they have a very deep occult background. They make contact
[36:49] Speaker 2: with with these entities and they give you know, they
[36:53] Speaker 2: get something back for that. There is a contract why
[36:55] Speaker 2: they do that. They have their advantages to work with
[36:58] Speaker 2: those entities. And there's no negative force creating a specific
[37:04] Speaker 2: scenario within the matrics, within this construct. But this specific
[37:11] Speaker 2: situation that we have of great polarization what we see
[37:15] Speaker 2: right now, which of course is instigated by higher dimensional
[37:20] Speaker 2: beings negative beings into this reality. This serves its purpose.
[37:28] Speaker 2: Of course, it's a normal thing because the matris works
[37:32] Speaker 2: in cycles, and each cycle, at the end of a cycle,
[37:35] Speaker 2: it's always described in all wisdom teaching, you talk about
[37:39] Speaker 2: Mayan prophecy or hopey prophecy. At the end of a cycle,
[37:44] Speaker 2: it's going berserk. Now do you have? You have this
[37:49] Speaker 2: great polarization. Everybody's against each other. You can be in
[37:53] Speaker 2: this group or that group and hate down them or
[37:55] Speaker 2: they hate you. And this is a normal thing that
[37:59] Speaker 2: things go hey, why at the at the end of
[38:01] Speaker 2: a cycle, and it's on purpose because each and everyone
[38:05] Speaker 2: is supposed to be tested how he relaxed to the
[38:11] Speaker 2: external polarization. And there's still also the point of you know,
[38:17] Speaker 2: evolution into the next density. As far as I can
[38:20] Speaker 2: understand it, deriving my understanding from the raw material or
[38:26] Speaker 2: the law of one or the hidden hand material, I
[38:29] Speaker 2: deeply resonated with that. Not saying that it's all perfect
[38:34] Speaker 2: or there are no distortions within this material, but it
[38:38] Speaker 2: resonated so deep on a deeper spiritual level with me
[38:42] Speaker 2: that it's like ancient wisdom. I was just reminded to
[38:46] Speaker 2: and if you'll look into this material, which is of
[38:49] Speaker 2: course complex, but the general idea is, yes, negative forces
[38:55] Speaker 2: are there. They are mostly contracted to do their work.
[38:59] Speaker 2: I mean the highest level, not the henchmen on the
[39:03] Speaker 2: middle management, who knows what they believe and how much
[39:07] Speaker 2: influence they really have and how much they know about
[39:10] Speaker 2: I don't you know. I can go into speculations on
[39:15] Speaker 2: specifical and even rules, but it doesn't help us in
[39:18] Speaker 2: the end. So yes, we have to accept negative forces
[39:20] Speaker 2: are working here hard, but they are contracted to do
[39:24] Speaker 2: how they do and within this contract. Of course, this
[39:27] Speaker 2: whole metrics or reality is based on rules. We are
[39:30] Speaker 2: not like in a totally anarchy here not I mean
[39:36] Speaker 2: anarchy is not the right really, but there is yeah,
[39:40] Speaker 2: totally cares. So there are rules. There are rules to
[39:43] Speaker 2: the game, and even the dark ones need to stick
[39:47] Speaker 2: to the rules. For example, the most important rule of
[39:51] Speaker 2: all of it is the law of free will. So
[39:55] Speaker 2: it's a deep discussion. Some people say, oh, no, I
[39:57] Speaker 2: don't believe in free will. We don't have free will.
[40:00] Speaker 2: There is free will. You can decide. It's not in everything.
[40:03] Speaker 2: There might be automatics in how much you are indoctrinated
[40:07] Speaker 2: into certain things, but deep inside of you, at specific
[40:13] Speaker 2: points in your life, you can choose do I continue
[40:16] Speaker 2: with this course or do I make you know a
[40:19] Speaker 2: new adjustment. And the more aware you become, the more
[40:23] Speaker 2: your imprints and programmings on your subconsciousness are removed, the
[40:27] Speaker 2: more you can actually use your free wel And for example,
[40:35] Speaker 2: that this is the reason why they made it really
[40:38] Speaker 2: hard on us, you know, to accept the syringe when
[40:44] Speaker 2: it came to twenty twenty and I don't get the shot.
[40:47] Speaker 2: But it was never mandatory. I mean, it was maybe
[40:51] Speaker 2: mandatory for you at this specific work, but of course
[40:55] Speaker 2: you could have said no and later sue their assets
[41:00] Speaker 2: and most times it worked pretty well. But they you know,
[41:03] Speaker 2: they wanted you to go there on your own terms,
[41:08] Speaker 2: meaning yes, I accept if you but if you're you know,
[41:12] Speaker 2: you were tested. Are you willing to stand on your back,
[41:16] Speaker 2: on your back legs and say no to this point
[41:20] Speaker 2: and I trust universe that will provide for me? Or
[41:22] Speaker 2: do I take a different path, But I don't do
[41:25] Speaker 2: not compromise on something I know within myself, which is wrong.
[41:29] Speaker 1: I'm with you, man. I think this is a process
[41:33] Speaker 1: to evolve our consciousness. I think we're being presented, like
[41:36] Speaker 1: you said, these extremes, these extreme polarities, so that we
[41:41] Speaker 1: can choose what we're going to align with, so that
[41:44] Speaker 1: we can learn from the darkest of dark and understand
[41:48] Speaker 1: that that's not where we want to go. And it's
[41:50] Speaker 1: going to Like you said, it seems to be getting
[41:52] Speaker 1: progressively worse. Our systems that are fundamentally parasitic, the education government,
[42:01] Speaker 1: our health care systems, they're getting worse every second of
[42:05] Speaker 1: every day, and it's pushing people away, and it seems
[42:09] Speaker 1: like it's for a greater purpose. Another part of that
[42:12] Speaker 1: that I can look back on my own life and
[42:15] Speaker 1: no matter what horrible things I went through. It was
[42:19] Speaker 1: ultimately beneficial for me, and I learned from it. When
[42:22] Speaker 1: I look back at my entire life, it was too
[42:26] Speaker 1: perfect a series of events to have been anything just
[42:30] Speaker 1: like random chaos. And I can look at the bigger
[42:33] Speaker 1: picture of what's unfolding in the collective as well and say,
[42:37] Speaker 1: there seems to be a story being told throughout time
[42:42] Speaker 1: that is fitting a bigger picture and leading to something
[42:47] Speaker 1: greater for humanity. There's many that have the consensus. You
[42:51] Speaker 1: talk with intuitive psychics, people who are connected to other
[42:57] Speaker 1: worldly intelligences or inner jeez, and they have this emerging
[43:02] Speaker 1: consensus that we are entering a new era of humanity
[43:06] Speaker 1: where we will start to reject the things that are
[43:09] Speaker 1: anti human and it's going to be much more beneficial
[43:13] Speaker 1: for us. Would you agree with that? Do you think
[43:16] Speaker 1: we're heading into something better for us?
[43:21] Speaker 2: No, I have no question. I mean, first, we have
[43:23] Speaker 2: to go through a valley of tears. I guess it's
[43:27] Speaker 2: by design that it's not like the dogs are totally
[43:31] Speaker 2: incompetent that those things come up right now. No, it's
[43:34] Speaker 2: suppose it's part of the script. It's part of the
[43:37] Speaker 2: script that all these you know, any topic you want
[43:43] Speaker 2: to you want to name, even you know that people
[43:46] Speaker 2: have to realize that my favorite artist I was listening
[43:49] Speaker 2: for the last ten years and hell is a great
[43:52] Speaker 2: guy is somewhere on Diddy's list, made visits to Epstein Island,
[43:57] Speaker 2: or you know, it's supposed to come up and people,
[44:01] Speaker 2: you know, either wake up or the whole tie to
[44:05] Speaker 2: the g the old part time, but it will all implode.
[44:10] Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm not like I would love to
[44:14] Speaker 2: say something different, something which goes more like the hop
[44:18] Speaker 2: you'm understanding that you know everything, the white Heads will
[44:22] Speaker 2: come and arrest all the then all aliens come, or
[44:26] Speaker 2: Jesus will will get the get the thing out of
[44:29] Speaker 2: the mutton. Now I'm sorry. I I think it's this
[44:33] Speaker 2: individual soul wants to experience it own power and also
[44:41] Speaker 2: its own ability to navigate through that thing and and
[44:46] Speaker 2: and you know, and that help is always just help
[44:51] Speaker 2: for self help if it comes from a divine source.
[44:54] Speaker 2: And I guess we will experience at the end of
[44:57] Speaker 2: the cycle is usually you know, it doesn't mean it
[45:02] Speaker 2: has to be that way this time, And usually at
[45:06] Speaker 2: the end of a cycle, we experience on a geophysical level,
[45:10] Speaker 2: great changes some people talk about the pole shift, some cataclysm.
[45:17] Speaker 2: You know the story from the Bible. You know that
[45:20] Speaker 2: is a big flood, deluge, as you say, right, that's
[45:25] Speaker 2: that's a story you find all around all over the world,
[45:30] Speaker 2: the Gilgamesh apos, the Gilgamesh story, to make just one example.
[45:35] Speaker 2: So and if you follow people like suspicious observers, I
[45:40] Speaker 2: don't say they are one correct on everything, but there
[45:44] Speaker 2: is great evidence that we are coming to an end
[45:47] Speaker 2: of the cycle, not only in a spiritual sense, but
[45:50] Speaker 2: it manifests into the physical realm. And of course we
[45:55] Speaker 2: see that everybody is preparing for war, a global that
[46:01] Speaker 2: is also part of the scriptures because all these religions,
[46:08] Speaker 2: the Christians, the Muslims, the Jews, they all believe in
[46:11] Speaker 2: their armageddon. This is do I say, Emma Gaddon here
[46:15] Speaker 2: So so the armageddon, so the the you know, the
[46:18] Speaker 2: big story at the at the at the end of
[46:21] Speaker 2: their cycle, so that the Mardi, the Messia is the
[46:24] Speaker 2: second coming of Christ can can occur. So so if
[46:29] Speaker 2: they tell you about geopolitical necessities in the Middle East
[46:34] Speaker 2: is bullshit. It's a cover story. Now the normal people
[46:38] Speaker 2: like to have PCs, but the people behind that, they
[46:42] Speaker 2: are guided you know that by dark forces, and they
[46:46] Speaker 2: are into their understanding that you need to have this
[46:50] Speaker 2: AMAgeddon at the end of the of uh specific age,
[46:54] Speaker 2: so everybody's preparing for that.
[46:56] Speaker 1: It's very interesting how what we're seeing, especially what we
[47:00] Speaker 1: just saw politically here in the United States, mirror's prophecy
[47:05] Speaker 1: in some very disturbing ways. It's very interesting the series
[47:10] Speaker 1: of events that we can look back on and compare
[47:14] Speaker 1: to a book of revelation, ancient prophecy throughout all theological
[47:19] Speaker 1: belief systems, and there seem to be things unfolding that
[47:23] Speaker 1: we can point to in these ancient texts and say,
[47:27] Speaker 1: could this be what they're saying?
[47:32] Speaker 2: Yeah. So each each party in the game, it is
[47:35] Speaker 2: like a script. There's one script from the you know,
[47:39] Speaker 2: the universal negative force that is responsible for implementing the
[47:44] Speaker 2: stage play here, and each party involved, meaning each religious faith,
[47:51] Speaker 2: they have their own script of how they are supposed
[47:56] Speaker 2: to act at this specific big chapter that we are
[48:01] Speaker 2: in the final chapter. So of course it's all these
[48:04] Speaker 2: scripts are all we against them. None of them realizes
[48:09] Speaker 2: that the fundamental unity of everything. So everybody who is
[48:15] Speaker 2: you know, is you know, get the opportunity to choose
[48:19] Speaker 2: to fight for their party against the other evil ones.
[48:23] Speaker 2: And it's fine, you can't do that. You know, from
[48:26] Speaker 2: from the point of view of eternity that each and
[48:29] Speaker 2: every fractal experience itself. Some just came here to have,
[48:33] Speaker 2: you know, just a nice experience of slaughtering the other
[48:37] Speaker 2: the other ones, you know, So that's it. I'm not
[48:40] Speaker 2: judging here, you know, and trying try not to judge here.
[48:43] Speaker 2: So so that's that's the party. We we all came
[48:47] Speaker 2: here too, and we can decide, you know, how we
[48:52] Speaker 2: want to play in here and and what group we
[48:56] Speaker 2: want to be part of, or if we choose our
[49:00] Speaker 2: own path and our own path of you know that
[49:05] Speaker 2: seeing unity and everything, that doesn't mean that we accept everything.
[49:09] Speaker 2: Now we just say, okay that those are our boundaries,
[49:11] Speaker 2: and you know, and but I'm strict to my path
[49:16] Speaker 2: and not you know, as long as nobody stands on
[49:20] Speaker 2: my way, I'm you know, I try to be the
[49:24] Speaker 2: like the water, you know, and and try to navigate
[49:26] Speaker 2: through these times, but always with the understanding, okay, to
[49:30] Speaker 2: implement love and unity rather than you know, fighting some
[49:36] Speaker 2: other aspect of myself.
[49:38] Speaker 1: I love it, man. We all came here to party
[49:41] Speaker 1: last few minutes we have, I want to get deeper
[49:44] Speaker 1: into how powerful we are as creators in this realm.
[49:48] Speaker 1: You were talking about how our perception can form our reality.
[49:53] Speaker 1: I believe that our imagination, our perception, the way we
[49:56] Speaker 1: view things, is going to dictate how our reality manifests
[50:01] Speaker 1: to us. And we have this collective understanding of baseline reality,
[50:07] Speaker 1: but we also have our own individual experiences, and as
[50:12] Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier, this fractalization of experiences may
[50:17] Speaker 1: cause things to seem like they're changing in our reality.
[50:21] Speaker 1: But I've noticed myself throughout different experiences, as I would
[50:26] Speaker 1: have better understandings, as I would have a more positive outlook,
[50:30] Speaker 1: as my perspective would shift, things in my life would
[50:33] Speaker 1: reflect that, and I could experience very profound changes, things
[50:37] Speaker 1: that I might not specifically be able to point out,
[50:40] Speaker 1: but an overall sense that things are better in my life,
[50:43] Speaker 1: and they would perpetuate that way. If I had a
[50:46] Speaker 1: good perspective, good people would come into my life, good
[50:50] Speaker 1: things would happen, and it would continue in that way.
[50:53] Speaker 1: And it seems like the way we view things is
[50:56] Speaker 1: going to heavily dictate how we experience our reality.
[51:03] Speaker 2: Absolutely, as I said, we are co creators. Each and
[51:06] Speaker 2: every factal is part of the one and has similar abilities.
[51:12] Speaker 2: Of course, many things happen on a subconscious level. That's
[51:16] Speaker 2: why shadow work is so important, so we see where
[51:19] Speaker 2: our own sabotage comes from within. But generally, if we
[51:27] Speaker 2: have like we create our reality bubble or the reality
[51:30] Speaker 2: that we experience on a daily base, the probabilities that
[51:36] Speaker 2: bend because we have a specific positive like in a negative.
[51:41] Speaker 2: Of course, if you want positive bending, so you don't
[51:45] Speaker 2: attract all the so called assholes, but positive people then
[51:49] Speaker 2: of course stay positive and you attract that. There might
[51:53] Speaker 2: be other things coming into that, like you know, your
[51:57] Speaker 2: personal karma and stuff, you know your the let's say
[52:02] Speaker 2: energetic dept that might interfere with that, But generally your
[52:08] Speaker 2: consciousness dictates what comes to you. The more people come
[52:12] Speaker 2: together have unified or coherent understanding or idea about what
[52:17] Speaker 2: reality they want to manifest, the more you build like
[52:21] Speaker 2: a bubble, a bubble of reality that might even be
[52:24] Speaker 2: like paradoxical to compared to what is happening in the collective,
[52:31] Speaker 2: and to a point where you are maybe even totally
[52:35] Speaker 2: disconnected to the collective, and your personal reality bubble can
[52:39] Speaker 2: be totally something totally different from what other people experience
[52:45] Speaker 2: in this reality just let's say a physical length of
[52:50] Speaker 2: ten miles away to give you just a idea. So, yes,
[52:56] Speaker 2: we create like our own individual intelligent field of reality,
[53:01] Speaker 2: and especially in times right now where things become more
[53:05] Speaker 2: and more chaotic, this also increases the power from my
[53:10] Speaker 2: point of view, or I don't know, maybe it's part
[53:12] Speaker 2: of the matrix design, but I think chaos is also
[53:16] Speaker 2: a facilitator for new impulses coming in by so called coincidence.
[53:23] Speaker 2: Because it's chaotic, it's hard for me to explain, but
[53:28] Speaker 2: I guess that's also my experience. We have to more
[53:32] Speaker 2: and more focus on our ability to change reality in
[53:38] Speaker 2: our personal realm, and therefore we need to take self responsibility,
[53:45] Speaker 2: meaning we don't say, ah, this politician and those ones
[53:49] Speaker 2: and this organization over here there are the reason why
[53:54] Speaker 2: I'm miserable. Yeah, there might be on a causal realm,
[53:58] Speaker 2: but the more every time you give your own creative
[54:02] Speaker 2: power away and hand it over to them by complaining
[54:07] Speaker 2: rather than saying, okay, if one way or another created this,
[54:12] Speaker 2: let's say, let's call it challenge here, okay, and the
[54:17] Speaker 2: reason for this challenge is for me to become the
[54:20] Speaker 2: next better version of myself if I prevail. So let's
[54:26] Speaker 2: take it as a sportive challenge here and I do
[54:29] Speaker 2: the best, and it's in my power to change things.
[54:33] Speaker 2: So and that is the best thing to take self
[54:36] Speaker 2: responsibility for your life, individual life. Yes, the negative forces
[54:41] Speaker 2: are there, they play their part, but try to get
[54:45] Speaker 2: around these obstacles as good as you can and take
[54:49] Speaker 2: it as part of this evolutionary process and take the
[54:54] Speaker 2: negative forces or the negative things as catalysts for your
[55:01] Speaker 2: own for your own evolution. So that would be the
[55:04] Speaker 2: best thing I can say. And yes, the more and
[55:08] Speaker 2: more you realize you are a co creator in this
[55:11] Speaker 2: reality and there are no boundaries, and especially at times
[55:15] Speaker 2: where things get a little bit sketchy all around, then
[55:18] Speaker 2: this is a critical ability to develop.
[55:24] Speaker 1: We are definitely in a very special time right now.
[55:27] Speaker 1: There's been an effort throughout history to try and suppress
[55:31] Speaker 1: the abilities that we have as humanity, and especially in
[55:35] Speaker 1: the past few years, there's been a noticeable jump in
[55:39] Speaker 1: awareness collectively, and as we discussed earlier, I think this
[55:44] Speaker 1: is only going to continue. So we're in a very
[55:47] Speaker 1: fascinating time. Christian. Thank you so much for this. This
[55:50] Speaker 1: is great information. Before we close out, let everyone know
[55:53] Speaker 1: how they can find out more about you pick up
[55:56] Speaker 1: your book. I'll also have that link right in the description.
[56:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for giving me the opportunity. Well, I have
[56:04] Speaker 2: an English website, this is maya magic dot com, but
[56:08] Speaker 2: I haven't haven't done much work on that. But the
[56:12] Speaker 2: articles there are all written in English, but it doesn't
[56:16] Speaker 2: have the extent like my German website, which is my
[56:20] Speaker 2: Magic dot de and I have the function of a
[56:24] Speaker 2: Google translator of gold Schoogle translator budgets the content a
[56:28] Speaker 2: little bit, but but there you find the most content
[56:33] Speaker 2: and articles and connections between different stories that I can
[56:40] Speaker 2: provide at this point, but generally if you really want
[56:44] Speaker 2: to see what my bigger picture is and how everything relates.
[56:51] Speaker 2: I just published my English version of the Matrix Hypothesis
[56:57] Speaker 2: on Amazon KDP, so I have hotly ten sales by now,
[57:03] Speaker 2: so I hope if I change and yeah, so I
[57:09] Speaker 2: put a lot of effort into that fauna patients on
[57:11] Speaker 2: everything that I figured out. As not saying that this
[57:16] Speaker 2: is the final truth, but I guess it's a good
[57:18] Speaker 2: guideline to get in all to these topics and make
[57:22] Speaker 2: yourself your own picture of reality.
[57:25] Speaker 1: Well, I'm pretty sure that my audience can definitely help
[57:28] Speaker 1: bring you some more sales. Christian, this was great. I'd
[57:32] Speaker 1: definitely love to talk with you again in the future.
[57:34] Speaker 1: There's much more we can get into. Until next time, everyone,
[57:38] Speaker 1: have a wonderful evening. We will talk again tomorrow and
[57:42] Speaker 1: we'll see you then.
[57:44] Speaker 2: Hello.
[57:44] Speaker 1: Friends. At some point in our journeys, we all need
[57:47] Speaker 1: guidance and direction. One thing I've learned along the way
[57:51] Speaker 1: is that there are many ways to connect with our
[57:54] Speaker 1: soul mission. Jennifer Halcom offers over thirty years experience. Today,
[58:00] Speaker 1: I want to welcome Mark Weinstein. He is a world
[58:02] Speaker 1: renowned tech entrepreneur, contemporary thought leader, privacy expert, and one
[58:09] Speaker 1: of the visionary inventors of social networking. His adventure in
[58:14] Speaker 1: social media has lasted over twenty five years through three
[58:18] Speaker 1: award winning personal social media platforms, enjoyed by millions of
[58:23] Speaker 1: members worldwide. Mark, welcome.
[58:26] Speaker 3: How you doing, Hey, Chris, I'm doing great. You know,
[58:30] Speaker 3: this is such an important topic and so it's great
[58:34] Speaker 3: to be on the show. It's great to have everybody
[58:37] Speaker 3: who's going to be watching and listening. You know, I'm
[58:40] Speaker 3: very excited to be here with you.
[58:41] Speaker 1: I'm very excited to have you, and like you said,
[58:44] Speaker 1: this is definitely a very important and timely topic. We're
[58:48] Speaker 1: going to talk about the dark reality of surveillance capitalism.
[58:53] Speaker 1: And you call this the greatest socio economic experiment in
[58:57] Speaker 1: human history. And we're currently in an era of constant tracking, surveillance, analysis,
[59:04] Speaker 1: even monetization. And there's most likely several layers that go
[59:09] Speaker 1: beyond my limited understanding of this technology. But I'm looking
[59:13] Speaker 1: forward to hearing your insights about the state of technocracy
[59:17] Speaker 1: and maybe even get some possible solutions and help people
[59:22] Speaker 1: understand where we're at before we do. This is your
[59:25] Speaker 1: first time on tell us a little bit more about
[59:27] Speaker 1: yourself and what led you to where you're at.
[59:32] Speaker 3: Well, first of all, everybody, if you're watching, I've just
[59:36] Speaker 3: I have a new book out called Restoring Our Sanity
[59:39] Speaker 3: Online Revolutionary Social Framework Now for context, you know, and
[59:46] Speaker 3: doubling down on the intro. It's endorsed by sir Tim
[59:49] Speaker 3: berners Lee. Well, many of you know, is the inventor
[59:53] Speaker 3: of the World Wide Web. There's not ten, there's not five,
[59:55] Speaker 3: there's not two, there's one. It's sir Tim he's advised
[59:59] Speaker 3: me for fourteen years. He's a friend. And if the
[1:00:03] Speaker 3: book is also endorsed by was Steve Wozniak. Now I
[1:00:07] Speaker 3: know a bunch of you have heard's name many times,
[1:00:11] Speaker 3: also been advising me for a long time. Great guy,
[1:00:14] Speaker 3: great human being. So that's what I've been up to recently. Now,
[1:00:19] Speaker 3: if we dial it back, you know, as one of
[1:00:21] Speaker 3: the inventors of social media, truly, everybody one of the inventors,
[1:00:25] Speaker 3: one of I think there's probably one hundred of us
[1:00:27] Speaker 3: around the world who thought of the idea around the
[1:00:30] Speaker 3: same time in the nineties. If you're if you weren't
[1:00:34] Speaker 3: born in the nineties, that's okay, But a bunch of
[1:00:37] Speaker 3: us lived through Web one also, so you know, I
[1:00:41] Speaker 3: started Web one, I started I built Superfamily and Super Friends.
[1:00:45] Speaker 3: They were PC magazine top one hundred sites three years
[1:00:48] Speaker 3: in a row in Web one. And then you know,
[1:00:51] Speaker 3: Web one was beautiful because we look at like, you know,
[1:00:54] Speaker 3: where does social media come from? Well, first of all,
[1:00:57] Speaker 3: we call them community portals in the nineties, and the
[1:01:01] Speaker 3: whole idea was email was already Look, we all had
[1:01:04] Speaker 3: email in the nineties, especially in the late nineties, but
[1:01:07] Speaker 3: email was already ghastly in the nineties. It's just like
[1:01:10] Speaker 3: it is today. One dimensional. You don't really know what
[1:01:13] Speaker 3: the person is thinking. You can't tap into their motions.
[1:01:17] Speaker 3: All you're doing is reading the flat word, and then
[1:01:19] Speaker 3: you're making all the interpretations. And we're often interpreting emails incorrectly,
[1:01:24] Speaker 3: particularly the nuance. So it was the same thing in
[1:01:27] Speaker 3: the nineties. Email is exactly the same. Can you believe
[1:01:30] Speaker 3: that all the advances in technology, thirty years of email.
[1:01:34] Speaker 3: So a bunch of us, you know, came up with
[1:01:38] Speaker 3: this idea. We've still all start different companies around the world.
[1:01:41] Speaker 3: It's called one hundredth monkey effect, where the idea plugs
[1:01:44] Speaker 3: into humanity at the same time in different places where
[1:01:47] Speaker 3: we have no connection to each other. And so the
[1:01:50] Speaker 3: idea was, let's connect the earth, let's connect with our
[1:01:55] Speaker 3: family and friends and with like minded people because we
[1:01:58] Speaker 3: can all live in work wherever we wanted too. At
[1:02:00] Speaker 3: that point. Also, so let's use technology to stay better connected,
[1:02:06] Speaker 3: you know, with live video, with photo albums, with you know,
[1:02:09] Speaker 3: sticky notes on a refrigerator, with all kinds of great stuff,
[1:02:14] Speaker 3: and so you know, social media was born. That's Web one.
[1:02:17] Speaker 3: There was no surveillance capital and everybody. This is actually
[1:02:21] Speaker 3: what leads to it because Web one was what was
[1:02:25] Speaker 3: called the new economy. It was a revenue model that
[1:02:29] Speaker 3: wasn't quite developed, and all that investors cared about in
[1:02:34] Speaker 3: Web one is that you got users, and we call
[1:02:37] Speaker 3: them eyeballs. Then we didn't call them users, we just
[1:02:39] Speaker 3: call them eyeballs. So you know, if you could get eyeballs,
[1:02:45] Speaker 3: then you were successful. And so by that measure, I
[1:02:49] Speaker 3: was very successful. Many companies were, because the new economy
[1:02:54] Speaker 3: was get your customers, your eyeballs, and then we'll figure
[1:02:58] Speaker 3: out how to monetize them. So that's what happened. And
[1:03:03] Speaker 3: so there we are in Web one, and everybody was
[1:03:07] Speaker 3: doing the right you know, the people that were successful,
[1:03:09] Speaker 3: like I was, we were doing it great. All of
[1:03:12] Speaker 3: a sudden, if you've ever read about Web one or
[1:03:15] Speaker 3: live through it, the bubble burst, they call it the
[1:03:18] Speaker 3: bubble bursting, and in the early two thousand and one
[1:03:25] Speaker 3: the bubble burst, and there was like, you know, investing
[1:03:29] Speaker 3: is always emotional, and all of a sudden, there were
[1:03:31] Speaker 3: the cynics who won and they were like, wait a minute,
[1:03:35] Speaker 3: there's no revenue. You know, none of these companies have revenue,
[1:03:39] Speaker 3: and it was like, yeah, we don't have revenue because
[1:03:40] Speaker 3: we're doing exactly the mandate of our investors. Get your customers,
[1:03:45] Speaker 3: get them lined up, and then we'll figure out we'll
[1:03:47] Speaker 3: invent monetization mechanisms that are effective for those customers. You've
[1:03:51] Speaker 3: got to first get them, make sure they love what
[1:03:53] Speaker 3: you're doing. They love the service, but investors panic. There
[1:03:57] Speaker 3: was a stampede to the door. And this is why
[1:04:00] Speaker 3: literally thousands of companies went out of business over a
[1:04:04] Speaker 3: short just a few months period, thousands of companies because
[1:04:09] Speaker 3: we didn't have revenue, and if investors stopped writing checks,
[1:04:12] Speaker 3: we couldn't fund our operations. And of Web one, Web
[1:04:17] Speaker 3: two is born shortly thereafter, and Web two is really
[1:04:21] Speaker 3: where Google comes into existence in a big way. You know,
[1:04:27] Speaker 3: Meta Facebook starts around two thousand and four, MySpace is
[1:04:32] Speaker 3: in early two thousands, and Google and Facebook start to
[1:04:37] Speaker 3: discover something in that two thousand and five six, seven,
[1:04:40] Speaker 3: eight nine era that oh, we have so much data
[1:04:48] Speaker 3: because the ad models then were very straightforward, just like
[1:04:50] Speaker 3: throwing ads at people without any kind of targeting. All
[1:04:53] Speaker 3: of a sudden they're like, oh, wait a minute, I
[1:04:56] Speaker 3: know that Mark's got to get dog food in you know,
[1:04:58] Speaker 3: he's going to the store. So on right there, all right,
[1:05:01] Speaker 3: I heard it. You know, poor bubble poles really listening.
[1:05:04] Speaker 3: But they were watching where you are, who you're talking to,
[1:05:07] Speaker 3: what you're saying in real time. The algorithms were being
[1:05:10] Speaker 3: engineered as quickly as possible so that they could collect
[1:05:14] Speaker 3: the data, aggregate a data packet on you, and then
[1:05:18] Speaker 3: target and manipulate your thoughts, your purchases, your business decisions.
[1:05:23] Speaker 3: Now here's the strange thing, Chris and everybody. At first,
[1:05:28] Speaker 3: a bunch of people thought it was cool because it
[1:05:30] Speaker 3: had never been done before. Right, So it's like, oh, well, well,
[1:05:34] Speaker 3: they know, you know that I'm not feeling so hot,
[1:05:37] Speaker 3: and so they know I need to go to you know,
[1:05:39] Speaker 3: Walgreens and get some medicine or you know, they know
[1:05:43] Speaker 3: I need to go to the pet store and get
[1:05:45] Speaker 3: some dog food. They know them out so and there's
[1:05:48] Speaker 3: the ad right there, there's a coupon. How cool is that?
[1:05:51] Speaker 3: So the coolness lasted for just a little while, and
[1:05:56] Speaker 3: for many of us, we thought it was creepy immediately.
[1:05:59] Speaker 3: And in fact, you fast forward to twenty twelve, the
[1:06:02] Speaker 3: day before Facebook went public, I was interviewed on Fox Business.
[1:06:06] Speaker 3: I was the one guy that could fight who said
[1:06:08] Speaker 3: this is creepy, and I said it. I said it.
[1:06:12] Speaker 3: I said, you know, guys, because that's you know, it's
[1:06:14] Speaker 3: like there's something wrong here. If I write, you know,
[1:06:19] Speaker 3: I put a post, guys, I got to go to
[1:06:20] Speaker 3: the store. I gotta get some dog food. Then in
[1:06:23] Speaker 3: ten seconds I have dog food.
[1:06:24] Speaker 2: Ads.
[1:06:25] Speaker 3: This is creepy. This is like big Brother. There's a
[1:06:27] Speaker 3: creep watching right over my shoulder, and I can't see
[1:06:30] Speaker 3: that creep. So I can't actually articulate anything about that creep.
[1:06:34] Speaker 3: But it's creepy. And this actually is why it works
[1:06:38] Speaker 3: so well, Chris. This is surveillance capitalism, everybody. This is
[1:06:42] Speaker 3: how it started. This is how it perpetuates today. When
[1:06:45] Speaker 3: you can't see the creep, it's really hard to articulate
[1:06:50] Speaker 3: what's happening, get your arms around it, and it's just weird.
[1:06:56] Speaker 3: So so fast forward. You know what we have today
[1:07:01] Speaker 3: and now we've had for many years. Fir So. In
[1:07:03] Speaker 3: twenty ten, Mark Zuckerberg stated an interviewed with the Crunchy
[1:07:09] Speaker 3: Awards in San Francisco. He said privacy is a social
[1:07:12] Speaker 3: norm of the past. There's headlines that I test that.
[1:07:15] Speaker 3: By the way, everybody, you can fact check everything that
[1:07:18] Speaker 3: I say, even in the book. You know, I've got
[1:07:20] Speaker 3: an over four hundred footnotes with the source of anything
[1:07:27] Speaker 3: that I'm stating, because and all credible sources. So anyways,
[1:07:32] Speaker 3: Zuckerberg says this in twenty ten, I had been out
[1:07:36] Speaker 3: for a while, I was watching the industry. My jaw dropped.
[1:07:38] Speaker 3: I watched his interview and I was like, oh my god,
[1:07:41] Speaker 3: this is not why we invented what had become social networking.
[1:07:47] Speaker 3: You know, we invented social networking so we could make
[1:07:50] Speaker 3: the world a more compassionate, loving place that we could
[1:07:53] Speaker 3: stay connected. We could use technology to better stay in
[1:07:58] Speaker 3: touch with our family and our friends, our love and
[1:08:00] Speaker 3: find like minded people and really, you know, get this
[1:08:02] Speaker 3: world in a better situation. We didn't invent social media
[1:08:07] Speaker 3: so people could become manipulated and targeted and their opinions
[1:08:12] Speaker 3: could be you know, affected and their purchase decisions. That
[1:08:16] Speaker 3: wasn't the point. So anyway, you know, fast forward, I
[1:08:20] Speaker 3: have a TED talk if everybody wants to watch, it's
[1:08:22] Speaker 3: a nine minute I did in twenty twenty on the
[1:08:26] Speaker 3: rise of surveillance capitalism purposely short because we don't have
[1:08:30] Speaker 3: as much time to you know, take a break and
[1:08:32] Speaker 3: watch things. But you know, everything that I do is entertaining.
[1:08:35] Speaker 3: So whether you're watching my dead talk, whether you're reading
[1:08:37] Speaker 3: this book. I have a sense of humor. So you're
[1:08:41] Speaker 3: going to chuckle all the way through as you read
[1:08:43] Speaker 3: the stories, hear the stories you know from in the trenches.
[1:08:48] Speaker 3: And then yes, Chris, absolutely, we'll talk about how do
[1:08:52] Speaker 3: we fix this mess?
[1:08:53] Speaker 1: Yeah, First, before we get to that, let's bring the
[1:08:58] Speaker 1: attention to, well, what you believe to be some of
[1:09:01] Speaker 1: the most dangerous aspects of this. Not only has this
[1:09:07] Speaker 1: surveillance capitalism crept in to our society in a sense
[1:09:14] Speaker 1: that it's selling to us, it's a marketing tool, but
[1:09:17] Speaker 1: there are deeper layers. The algorithms affect people's decisions when
[1:09:24] Speaker 1: it comes to politics, it's affecting younger people's mental health.
[1:09:29] Speaker 1: And there's this layer of deception that is covering our
[1:09:35] Speaker 1: reality based on the technology that we're interacting with. We're
[1:09:39] Speaker 1: stuck in echo chambers. The algorithm is determining what people
[1:09:45] Speaker 1: are thinking, where we're going, and where society is headed
[1:09:49] Speaker 1: as a whole. How advanced are these algorithms and what
[1:09:54] Speaker 1: do you think the end goal is for all of this?
[1:09:58] Speaker 3: Wow, that's and it's amazing. We can stay calm with
[1:10:01] Speaker 3: the way that you just you know, presented that bundle
[1:10:07] Speaker 3: of questions. So everybody, I came back in Web two
[1:10:12] Speaker 3: and I started a beta project. This is how I
[1:10:15] Speaker 3: got to be friends with Tim berners Lee. You know,
[1:10:18] Speaker 3: unbeknownst to me in the beta project in the early
[1:10:21] Speaker 3: twenty tens, you know, eleven, twelve, thirteen fourteen, Sir Tim
[1:10:26] Speaker 3: was providing feedback as one of our beta users and
[1:10:29] Speaker 3: not telling us who he was. But it was really
[1:10:32] Speaker 3: spectacular as I learned that he was. Because you know,
[1:10:36] Speaker 3: it's like, the idea is, how about a privacy centric
[1:10:39] Speaker 3: social media company? And that I built a company that
[1:10:43] Speaker 3: today is known as me We MEWE. Now. I left
[1:10:46] Speaker 3: me We about three years ago to write the book.
[1:10:50] Speaker 3: Meta had interfered. Meta Facebook had interfered very significantly according
[1:10:55] Speaker 3: to our research, and I realized that the problem is
[1:11:00] Speaker 3: bigger than one company. So, you know, and but me
[1:11:05] Speaker 3: we still exist, you know, just just an fyi for
[1:11:08] Speaker 3: I came back and Web two. I built this great company.
[1:11:10] Speaker 3: We got twenty million users, no advertising, fascinating privacy Bill
[1:11:16] Speaker 3: of Rights, No targeted material, no news line you know,
[1:11:20] Speaker 3: jigging around, you know all that stuff, news lines and
[1:11:23] Speaker 3: timeline order, no boosted content, no ads, et cetera beautiful
[1:11:29] Speaker 3: freemium model. The idea was people love what's free, and
[1:11:34] Speaker 3: then you know, you can and offer them extra features.
[1:11:38] Speaker 3: So our revenue models started to work very well in
[1:11:43] Speaker 3: twenty nineteen, twenty and twenty one. Here's the thing. There
[1:11:50] Speaker 3: is a huge data ecosystem. Another one of these things
[1:11:54] Speaker 3: that we can't see, field, touch, here, smell, taste, anything, right,
[1:11:58] Speaker 3: But it's there. And so they the proverbial they, and
[1:12:05] Speaker 3: they is the government, the social media companies, the advertisers,
[1:12:12] Speaker 3: the marketers, the nefarious governments. Anybody who wants to manipulate
[1:12:19] Speaker 3: and target your opinions, your votes, your purchase decisions, has
[1:12:24] Speaker 3: your data. And in the case of TikTok, it's documented
[1:12:32] Speaker 3: that biometric data Americans biometric data, you know, your thumbprint,
[1:12:36] Speaker 3: your eye, whatever, using to log in, that's being fed
[1:12:40] Speaker 3: right to the Chinese government. Now, your biometric data doesn't change.
[1:12:44] Speaker 3: So if somebody has your fingerprint, they have it forever.
[1:12:46] Speaker 3: If they have your eye, they have it forever. If
[1:12:49] Speaker 3: they have any biometric of yours. It's forever. It doesn't
[1:12:52] Speaker 3: change during your lifetime. So if you're a thirteen year
[1:12:55] Speaker 3: old kid and TikTok now has a biometric data on you,
[1:12:59] Speaker 3: guess what they have it until you know you're dead.
[1:13:03] Speaker 3: So just putting it in perspective there, Now, what can happen?
[1:13:09] Speaker 3: You know, Chris, like you said, the disruption of democracy
[1:13:13] Speaker 3: and you know we hear this every day. You know,
[1:13:16] Speaker 3: foreign adversarial countries are targeting us. They're they're you know,
[1:13:22] Speaker 3: invading our computers, they're doing this, they're doing that to
[1:13:25] Speaker 3: the government, to every possible system. But they're also you know,
[1:13:31] Speaker 3: getting out propaganda, they're interfering and the marketers are too,
[1:13:35] Speaker 3: even in our own elections, because one side or the
[1:13:39] Speaker 3: other is paying. Anybody can pay to get into your
[1:13:43] Speaker 3: news feed. And that's terrifying and more terrifying, think about this.
[1:13:49] Speaker 3: Meta has about half the world's population on their platforms,
[1:13:54] Speaker 3: half the world's population on Facebook. About half of Facebook
[1:13:59] Speaker 3: members get their news on Facebook. Now, who's in charge
[1:14:04] Speaker 3: of what news they're seeing? Facebook? Yeah, so think about
[1:14:11] Speaker 3: the filters that are being perpetrated on you, affecting how
[1:14:17] Speaker 3: you see the world. Now, for the example of Google searches.
[1:14:21] Speaker 3: Take it to Google because this is so documented now
[1:14:25] Speaker 3: because Google was just found guilty of antitrust infringement in
[1:14:29] Speaker 3: the United States of America. This is huge. Everybody Google has,
[1:14:34] Speaker 3: you know, can spend billions of dollars in lawyers to
[1:14:37] Speaker 3: fight the case they lost. They not only dominate the
[1:14:41] Speaker 3: search industry, which we all know, and this doesn't work.
[1:14:46] Speaker 3: Capitalism works beautifully until it turns into monopolism. When it
[1:14:51] Speaker 3: becomes monopolies, then it acts not in the interest of
[1:14:55] Speaker 3: the customer but the interest of the company alone. So
[1:14:59] Speaker 3: Google is found they manipulate everything, you know, they manipulate
[1:15:03] Speaker 3: all your searches. So if you're searching for something at
[1:15:07] Speaker 3: the top of the search results is going to be
[1:15:10] Speaker 3: a product or service or something that Google's connected to,
[1:15:14] Speaker 3: somebody paid Google to get it up there, or it's
[1:15:17] Speaker 3: something that Google makes money on. So I mean the
[1:15:20] Speaker 3: court case, you know, it's just really stunning. It's like, Wow,
[1:15:24] Speaker 3: we knew it was bad, but we didn't know it
[1:15:25] Speaker 3: was this bad because they were so good at discretion
[1:15:29] Speaker 3: about it. And remember Google had a mantra for those
[1:15:33] Speaker 3: of you who may remember now it's six years ago.
[1:15:35] Speaker 3: They got rid of it, do no evil. That was
[1:15:38] Speaker 3: their mantra. Yeah, and in twenty eighteen it kind of
[1:15:42] Speaker 3: discreetly and quietly just disappeared from their ambionce. So but
[1:15:48] Speaker 3: here's here's what we've got. We've got civil discourse at
[1:15:52] Speaker 3: risk because as we see so much hate in our
[1:15:57] Speaker 3: own country between one side the other, Republicans and Democrats,
[1:16:02] Speaker 3: megas and not megas, you know, progressives and conservatives. This
[1:16:07] Speaker 3: is unprecedent everybody, because disagreement is actually the foundation of democracy,
[1:16:14] Speaker 3: it's the backbone. We should be cherishing disagreement. We should
[1:16:19] Speaker 3: appreciate our neighbor as a different opinion than us and
[1:16:22] Speaker 3: just go, well, cool, that's that's interesting to learn about.
[1:16:26] Speaker 2: You know.
[1:16:27] Speaker 3: Instead, we're being salted and peppered so that we actually
[1:16:32] Speaker 3: think we hate each other. No, we don't. We're being
[1:16:36] Speaker 3: manipulated to do that. We're being manipulated so that democracy
[1:16:40] Speaker 3: can get disrupted, civil discourse gets eroded, and we've got
[1:16:46] Speaker 3: a problem.
[1:16:46] Speaker 1: Everything that also ties into this illusion of choice that
[1:16:52] Speaker 1: we're being presented. All these corporations seem to be being
[1:16:56] Speaker 1: absorbed into one entity, and anything that starts out beneficial
[1:17:02] Speaker 1: is going to be bought out and then become part
[1:17:05] Speaker 1: of this one corporate system. It's providing us this illusion
[1:17:11] Speaker 1: that we have choices coke pepsi between presidential candidates whenever
[1:17:18] Speaker 1: we're being corralled into the same ideologies. But it's an
[1:17:23] Speaker 1: illusion that we have this choice to choose from it.
[1:17:29] Speaker 3: Well, and that's that's so interesting, because let's talk about
[1:17:32] Speaker 3: the premises of capitalism. Because I'm a capitalist, I love capitalism,
[1:17:36] Speaker 3: an entrepreneur obviously, and also today one of the you know,
[1:17:42] Speaker 3: the world's leading technology thought leaders on all the topics,
[1:17:47] Speaker 3: you know, published widely, you know, from the Wall Street
[1:17:50] Speaker 3: Journal to the La Times, all different perspectives, Fox Newsweek,
[1:17:56] Speaker 3: you know, you name it, you know, squawk boxes, just
[1:17:59] Speaker 3: on squawk Box, Susan Forbes, because I took common sense,
[1:18:04] Speaker 3: because you know, and but here's here, here's what we've got.
[1:18:08] Speaker 3: We've got this complete manipulation and the economic system called
[1:18:14] Speaker 3: capitalism works perfectly, particularly in republics like ours with strict
[1:18:19] Speaker 3: antitrust laws, because capitalism needs a free market. In other words,
[1:18:26] Speaker 3: we must have the ability for entrepreneurs to enter the
[1:18:29] Speaker 3: market and offer their products and services, find investors. Of course,
[1:18:33] Speaker 3: that's their job, build the product or service, that's their job,
[1:18:37] Speaker 3: but we've got to have make sure that they can
[1:18:39] Speaker 3: do that. And what happens in capitalism without these sort
[1:18:45] Speaker 3: of you know, free market boundaries, is that capitalism turns
[1:18:50] Speaker 3: into monopolism. And that, Chris, is exactly what you just described.
[1:18:54] Speaker 3: And in my book, everybody remember this one because you're
[1:18:57] Speaker 3: gonna want to. You know, it's restoring our sanity online.
[1:19:00] Speaker 3: I'm going to talk about big AG, big energy, and
[1:19:05] Speaker 3: big tech because there are fascinating parallels in the evolution
[1:19:11] Speaker 3: of these large sectors as they go from free market
[1:19:16] Speaker 3: to monopolies, and then they squeeze out the free market
[1:19:20] Speaker 3: and then they stop functioning well, and then we're no
[1:19:24] Speaker 3: longer the customer. Think about it at Meta, at Google,
[1:19:30] Speaker 3: who's the customer? The customer is the advertiser, the marketer,
[1:19:33] Speaker 3: the political operative, the adversarial entity, whoever wants to target
[1:19:39] Speaker 3: and manipulate you. What are you? You're the product? Yes, right?
[1:19:43] Speaker 3: And even on social media, even in big tech.
[1:19:46] Speaker 1: You can even see it in all entertainment, in films
[1:19:48] Speaker 1: and movies, the propaganda slips into it all.
[1:19:53] Speaker 3: Absolutely. And this here's the thing, everybody, It's actually not
[1:19:57] Speaker 3: that hard to fix. This is the good news. This
[1:20:00] Speaker 3: stuff is not that hard to fix. And if you're
[1:20:03] Speaker 3: anti government, I'm sorry, but you know, and I'm a libertarian,
[1:20:08] Speaker 3: but we the government must help. If the government just
[1:20:11] Speaker 3: hadn't succeeded in a case that was started under Trump's
[1:20:14] Speaker 3: first administration, that was prosecuted under Biden's administration, if the
[1:20:20] Speaker 3: government hadn't succeeded. You know, this is the first time,
[1:20:23] Speaker 3: really since the AT and T breakup. This is we're
[1:20:25] Speaker 3: going back like decades since the government has had a
[1:20:28] Speaker 3: really successful big case. I mean, we're screwed if the
[1:20:31] Speaker 3: government doesn't succeed at this and the government has a
[1:20:35] Speaker 3: case against Meta. Now it's been going on for years.
[1:20:38] Speaker 3: A judge just set the trial day for April fourteenth,
[1:20:42] Speaker 3: twenty twenty five. This is huge news. Meta has spent
[1:20:46] Speaker 3: you know, countless millions of dollars trying to get that
[1:20:49] Speaker 3: case thrown out. It's going to court. Now, here's the thing.
[1:20:53] Speaker 3: If we can manage the free market, we can have
[1:20:59] Speaker 3: an incredibly well functioning capitalist society that supports democracy. And
[1:21:05] Speaker 3: so we need the government for this. Okay, this is important.
[1:21:08] Speaker 3: We also need the government to help our kids. It's
[1:21:12] Speaker 3: because you talked about mental health we need the government
[1:21:15] Speaker 3: to help our kids. And it doesn't really matter what
[1:21:18] Speaker 3: age you are. But you know, if you've you've got
[1:21:21] Speaker 3: to you know, a kid who's eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen,
[1:21:25] Speaker 3: you're up to the age really about twenty five or
[1:21:27] Speaker 3: thirty right now. But if you know a kid who's
[1:21:31] Speaker 3: under the age of thirteen, and they're on social media,
[1:21:34] Speaker 3: and if you take a look at what they're able
[1:21:35] Speaker 3: to see on YouTube, on TikTok, on Insta, you know
[1:21:41] Speaker 3: the way people can access them on Facebook because they
[1:21:45] Speaker 3: like about their age.
[1:21:46] Speaker 2: All you have to do is press a book.
[1:21:48] Speaker 1: Yes, I'm over twenty one.
[1:21:50] Speaker 2: Is that simple?
[1:21:51] Speaker 3: Yeah? Right, right exactly, And then and then from then
[1:21:55] Speaker 3: on the system recognizes you as being over twenty one
[1:21:58] Speaker 3: or over thirteen. I remember Facebook, it's thirteen and over.
[1:22:02] Speaker 3: And they just you know, announced about a month ago
[1:22:05] Speaker 3: or so some new voluntary rules for Instagram. This is
[1:22:09] Speaker 3: a joke, it's the same thing. So you get on Instagram,
[1:22:13] Speaker 3: you're saying I'm twenty one, and you could be eleven
[1:22:16] Speaker 3: or twelve or ten or eight or thirteen or fourteen.
[1:22:19] Speaker 3: But then the system's just gonna recognize you because it's
[1:22:21] Speaker 3: all voluntary, so the government needs to help. We've got
[1:22:25] Speaker 3: to make sure and listen. This just happened in Australia.
[1:22:30] Speaker 3: It's happening in places around the world right now. And
[1:22:33] Speaker 3: you know what is interesting. It looks like sixteen may
[1:22:37] Speaker 3: ultimately become the new normal for how old you are
[1:22:41] Speaker 3: in order to get on social media. Curiously me we
[1:22:45] Speaker 3: the company the last company I started, and we launched
[1:22:49] Speaker 3: that in twenty sixteen after a several year beta, you know, tests,
[1:22:53] Speaker 3: but we always made it sixteen. But we weren't about
[1:22:56] Speaker 3: to create a database of your information with verification, so
[1:23:01] Speaker 3: we didn't verify. But we asked our uths sixteen or
[1:23:04] Speaker 3: over because I think that's a pretty good safe age
[1:23:08] Speaker 3: to start on social media. Maybe at eighteen and over
[1:23:11] Speaker 3: you could be targeted or you could allow your data
[1:23:14] Speaker 3: to be used to target So there's a lot of
[1:23:17] Speaker 3: things here. But our kids, I mean, come on. The bullying,
[1:23:21] Speaker 3: the body shaming and body shaming and bullying don't just
[1:23:25] Speaker 3: come from peers. They also come from people who are
[1:23:29] Speaker 3: fifty or forty or thirty pretending to be teenagers as
[1:23:33] Speaker 3: they register and say they're a fourteen year old when
[1:23:35] Speaker 3: they're a fifty year old. The creeps are everywhere, and
[1:23:38] Speaker 3: the bots and trol creeps are everywhere because they also
[1:23:41] Speaker 3: know from nefarious entities that this is a way to
[1:23:44] Speaker 3: disrupt democracy. Go after the next generation, screw them up,
[1:23:50] Speaker 3: screw their heads up. So we've got a lot to
[1:23:53] Speaker 3: do to make sure that kids are talking to kids
[1:23:57] Speaker 3: and they're not getting creeped out. And also, you know
[1:24:00] Speaker 3: the algorithm which you mentioned earlier, The algorithms now are supercharged,
[1:24:05] Speaker 3: so this is where AI comes in. Previously, you know,
[1:24:10] Speaker 3: even in twenty twelve when I was on you know
[1:24:12] Speaker 3: that interview on Fox and I said, this is creepy
[1:24:15] Speaker 3: the Dave Facebook when public, I said, this is just
[1:24:17] Speaker 3: creepy what they're doing. You know this algorithm that's really
[1:24:20] Speaker 3: getting everything on you and then targeting you like that nanoseconds. Well,
[1:24:24] Speaker 3: now it really is nanoseconds because that algorithm had to
[1:24:28] Speaker 3: be constantly refined by a human programmer who was updating
[1:24:34] Speaker 3: it all the time, and then it would aggregate this
[1:24:36] Speaker 3: information and then you it would Now with AI gathering
[1:24:41] Speaker 3: this information, AI can ab test your brain in nanoseconds,
[1:24:47] Speaker 3: which is why all of a sudden there's a new phenomenon.
[1:24:50] Speaker 3: Never mind the kids. We all know older people now
[1:24:53] Speaker 3: who can't get on social media. They're stuck on TikTok,
[1:24:56] Speaker 3: they're stuck on X. This is because AI has now
[1:25:01] Speaker 3: supercharged the targeting algorithm. It gets content in your face,
[1:25:07] Speaker 3: It keeps you addicted. It knows exactly in a nanosecond,
[1:25:10] Speaker 3: how to get you not to put the phone down.
[1:25:14] Speaker 3: It's unbelievable. This is so out of control.
[1:25:17] Speaker 1: Let's get a little deeper into some of this technology.
[1:25:20] Speaker 1: You mentioned bots and some of the trolls that may
[1:25:25] Speaker 1: not even be people may be algorithm based. Tell us
[1:25:29] Speaker 1: a little bit more about your understanding of this and
[1:25:32] Speaker 1: maybe how to become aware of it better.
[1:25:36] Speaker 3: Very good, thanks man. Also, the book has adeppendix on
[1:25:39] Speaker 3: exactly how Box controls. Another thing this is not complicated
[1:25:44] Speaker 3: to get rid of. There's there's a catch twenty two.
[1:25:48] Speaker 3: Social media companies need their box and trolls because they
[1:25:53] Speaker 3: boost the engagement, they boost their revenue.
[1:25:56] Speaker 2: You know.
[1:25:57] Speaker 3: It's so it's it's a real straight catch twenty two
[1:26:02] Speaker 3: because first of all, and you look at a blue
[1:26:04] Speaker 3: check an X for example, you know must roll out
[1:26:08] Speaker 3: this blue check idea a couple of years ago, and
[1:26:12] Speaker 3: he said, hey, you know what this is. We're gonna
[1:26:14] Speaker 3: this way, we'll verify and we'll we'll help control the
[1:26:17] Speaker 3: bots and trolls. But when it actually rolled out, it
[1:26:22] Speaker 3: doesn't verify anything. Any boty troll in a farm and
[1:26:27] Speaker 3: we'll call a buttontrol farm. You know what a bot
[1:26:30] Speaker 3: really is, you know, basically a bot a troll can
[1:26:32] Speaker 3: be a person managing many of these accounts. But then
[1:26:37] Speaker 3: you all can be programmed to use a credit card
[1:26:40] Speaker 3: number to get a blue checks on hard Any programer
[1:26:44] Speaker 3: can do that. You can program you know, a million
[1:26:46] Speaker 3: of them, and you know, and that's easy. Any nefarious
[1:26:50] Speaker 3: government can do that, son, you know, and the idea
[1:26:52] Speaker 3: of the blue check was your posts then get better visibility,
[1:26:56] Speaker 3: get boosted, all that stuff. So you know, that's an
[1:27:00] Speaker 3: idea that fell by the wayside when the revenue was
[1:27:03] Speaker 3: a parent and when it became a parent that you know,
[1:27:07] Speaker 3: X already has a big issue. You know, it's it's documented,
[1:27:11] Speaker 3: you know, both for Biden and for Musk that somewhere
[1:27:16] Speaker 3: between fifty and seventy percent of their followers or bots controls.
[1:27:20] Speaker 3: So but you know, no one SNeW anything about it, right,
[1:27:24] Speaker 3: there's like that, you know, Okay, those millions of you know,
[1:27:27] Speaker 3: followers that the number looks good. We got to keep
[1:27:29] Speaker 3: it so but this is this is a very real factor,
[1:27:35] Speaker 3: and so listen, there's something that for everybody premise. I
[1:27:42] Speaker 3: am one of the world's leading privacy advocates. I've been
[1:27:44] Speaker 3: ranked that way. You know, this is not me spouting
[1:27:48] Speaker 3: it's you know, it's like I've been ranked consistently. I've
[1:27:51] Speaker 3: been awarded by governments, also by ranking systems on the web.
[1:27:57] Speaker 3: I've been against user verification systems for fifteen years since
[1:28:02] Speaker 3: somebody came up with the idea on government committees. I
[1:28:05] Speaker 3: joined government committees to push against this. But it's a
[1:28:10] Speaker 3: new day, it's a new reality. So you know, first
[1:28:13] Speaker 3: of all, we must protect anonymity for whistleblowers, marginalize people,
[1:28:19] Speaker 3: et cetera. We've got to protect their anonymity. But on
[1:28:22] Speaker 3: social media, just social media, they already know who we
[1:28:27] Speaker 3: are anyhow, they're just not getting rid of the bots
[1:28:30] Speaker 3: and trolls. But they already know who we are because
[1:28:33] Speaker 3: the government knows who we are. Remember went through this,
[1:28:36] Speaker 3: you know, there's so much data. There was a Guardian
[1:28:38] Speaker 3: reporter a few years ago just acted as a consumer
[1:28:41] Speaker 3: and wrote the facebooks that I like to know, get
[1:28:43] Speaker 3: my data that you have on me. They sent him
[1:28:46] Speaker 3: sixty thousand pages of data because you're allowed to request
[1:28:51] Speaker 3: sixty thousand pigs of data on one person. Because they
[1:28:54] Speaker 3: know everything. They know when you pick your nose. I mean, really,
[1:28:57] Speaker 3: here's the thing. These algorithms supercharit ai are so smart.
[1:29:02] Speaker 3: They can anticipate your next thought and then they can
[1:29:06] Speaker 3: manipulate your next thought. That's creepy, very great. So what
[1:29:11] Speaker 3: we've got to do, everybody is your social media. I
[1:29:16] Speaker 3: have decided that to preserve our privacy and to save
[1:29:21] Speaker 3: our data, and to save our children and ourselves from
[1:29:25] Speaker 3: being manipulated by you know, bots, trolls, weirdos whatever, we've
[1:29:31] Speaker 3: got to user ID verification, which is just what the
[1:29:34] Speaker 3: Australian government just decided. Now I haven't studied their user
[1:29:37] Speaker 3: IDE verification system, but when user the verification is done right, First,
[1:29:41] Speaker 3: of the already know who we are. Everybody born in
[1:29:43] Speaker 3: America has a sole security number. The already know who
[1:29:45] Speaker 3: we are, so let's stop pretending. And of social media,
[1:29:51] Speaker 3: I still believe we can have pseudonyms, no problem. You
[1:29:53] Speaker 3: want a pseudonym, great, But if you're a twelve year old,
[1:29:57] Speaker 3: you're not going to be on it. If we have
[1:29:58] Speaker 3: thirteen is verification and if you're thirteen, you're not going
[1:30:02] Speaker 3: to be talking to a fifty year old creep or
[1:30:04] Speaker 3: a bot control pretending to be one. They won't be
[1:30:07] Speaker 3: in the system. You'll be safe. Then we can manage
[1:30:12] Speaker 3: the bullying and all these other things. You won't be targeted.
[1:30:14] Speaker 3: There'll be no boost of content. Now that's no marketing.
[1:30:17] Speaker 3: It'll be you timeline order, connecting to you know, your friends,
[1:30:22] Speaker 3: et cetera. So we've got to get there. We've got
[1:30:26] Speaker 3: to get there now. And for the rest of us
[1:30:29] Speaker 3: on social media, it means when we're talking about you know,
[1:30:35] Speaker 3: a political idea or you know, whatever it is the
[1:30:37] Speaker 3: environment or you know energy, or you know, fundamental issues,
[1:30:42] Speaker 3: vaccines or women's right, whatever it is, that we'll be
[1:30:46] Speaker 3: talking to real people and the company when they can
[1:30:50] Speaker 3: use pseudonyms, I can use the pseudonym. I'm a big
[1:30:53] Speaker 3: fan of pseudonyms because you know, you don't want to
[1:30:55] Speaker 3: use your real name all the time everywhere. You don't
[1:30:57] Speaker 3: want to be that transparent. But if you bring in
[1:31:00] Speaker 3: the terms and conditions, you're breaking the law. Then the
[1:31:03] Speaker 3: site knows, and if you're not a real person, then
[1:31:06] Speaker 3: the site knows you're not going to be there. Social media, right,
[1:31:09] Speaker 3: this is one thing that we can do that governments
[1:31:14] Speaker 3: are going to mandate, you know, the Australian government just did.
[1:31:17] Speaker 3: They just passed it. Very interesting and controversial for sure,
[1:31:21] Speaker 3: because there's a lot of bots controls that's going to
[1:31:23] Speaker 3: threaten you know, millions, hundreds of millions of bots controls
[1:31:27] Speaker 3: are gonna get threatened by this. And some you know,
[1:31:30] Speaker 3: good people who are concerned about the right to anonymity.
[1:31:35] Speaker 3: Now here's the thing. I'm a firm believer in the
[1:31:38] Speaker 3: right to privacy and the right to anonymity in other arenas, whistleblowers,
[1:31:43] Speaker 3: you marginalize people. You know, everybody should be protected, but
[1:31:47] Speaker 3: not in social media. Let's just carve that out and go, okay,
[1:31:51] Speaker 3: you want to be in social media. You know, we
[1:31:54] Speaker 3: got to make sure you're a real person so that
[1:31:57] Speaker 3: we can save civil discourse, save democracy, save our kids,
[1:32:03] Speaker 3: save our mental health and our kids' mental health, and
[1:32:05] Speaker 3: get back to the beautiful thing what social media is
[1:32:09] Speaker 3: really designed for, which is connectivity, which is really you know,
[1:32:14] Speaker 3: enhancing you know, the human family and us you know,
[1:32:18] Speaker 3: It can be very nurturing when you're connected in timeline order,
[1:32:22] Speaker 3: where an algorithm isn't deciding if you should see your
[1:32:25] Speaker 3: grandmother's post or this outrageous post for control, which is
[1:32:28] Speaker 3: going to engage you more. Well, the heck with grandma.
[1:32:31] Speaker 3: They're going to stick that troll post in front of
[1:32:32] Speaker 3: you end if the algorithm is running it. So let's
[1:32:35] Speaker 3: go to news you know timeline, you know news feeds.
[1:32:39] Speaker 3: It works great. Anyway, there's a piece that's great.
[1:32:41] Speaker 1: Well, while we're on solutions, what are your thoughts on
[1:32:45] Speaker 1: the disturbing trends in AI art, deep fakes and some
[1:32:49] Speaker 1: of the deceptions that people are getting sucked into with this,
[1:32:54] Speaker 1: Especially with everything that's happened in the past few years,
[1:32:57] Speaker 1: there's more and more people just questioning everything, looking for answers,
[1:33:02] Speaker 1: and it's become difficult to sift through the nonsense online
[1:33:05] Speaker 1: because of this very thing, the not only alteration of information,
[1:33:10] Speaker 1: but now they can just make pictures and videos of
[1:33:13] Speaker 1: anything they want just by typing in a prompt, and
[1:33:17] Speaker 1: it's becoming so real looking that it's difficult for some
[1:33:21] Speaker 1: people to tell the difference in This seems to be
[1:33:24] Speaker 1: causing problems in certain areas, especially with misinformation about very
[1:33:29] Speaker 1: important things.
[1:33:32] Speaker 3: This is a huge problem. Again, it's now people can
[1:33:37] Speaker 3: do this. Remember there's still plenty of people in the
[1:33:40] Speaker 3: world who don't have who have a lot of time
[1:33:42] Speaker 3: on their hands, and they for entertainment. They get on
[1:33:45] Speaker 3: the web. And now, you know, with the advent of AI,
[1:33:49] Speaker 3: you can say to AI, make me a video of
[1:33:52] Speaker 3: a twenty twenty seven Core VET with a you know,
[1:33:56] Speaker 3: a fifteen hundred horse power engine. Make it look real
[1:33:59] Speaker 3: like came from Chevrolet, you know, and boom, and then
[1:34:04] Speaker 3: they it gets on the web. It catches the wave.
[1:34:08] Speaker 3: Before you know it, Chevrolet has to make announcements. No,
[1:34:11] Speaker 3: that's not us, it's not real, you know. Now, now
[1:34:15] Speaker 3: there's ways, so you have to listen. Now we shouldn't
[1:34:19] Speaker 3: have to do this, but right now you have to
[1:34:21] Speaker 3: pay attention. You have to watch. You have to listen
[1:34:23] Speaker 3: everything that you see. You have to then look for
[1:34:26] Speaker 3: a credible source, a credible news outlet reporting the same thing.
[1:34:33] Speaker 3: A credible source, whether you know it's Fox or you know,
[1:34:38] Speaker 3: PBS or you know whatever, your outlet has been a
[1:34:41] Speaker 3: mainstream credible source, CNN, whoever. I'm you know, I'm calling
[1:34:46] Speaker 3: out different sides, but the mainstream outlets so that you
[1:34:51] Speaker 3: can verify instead of just watching a deep fake and
[1:34:55] Speaker 3: going oh, and then you look at where's that deep
[1:34:57] Speaker 3: fake showing up and you're like, oh, it's not showing
[1:34:59] Speaker 3: up anywhere, but you know in my news feed. So
[1:35:03] Speaker 3: and then you know the problem is that it circulates
[1:35:05] Speaker 3: so much before it gets flagged because things spread like
[1:35:10] Speaker 3: wildfire on the web, and then they're paid to spread
[1:35:13] Speaker 3: like wildfire on the web. So you've got to get
[1:35:15] Speaker 3: really good. You can watch it deep fake, and you
[1:35:19] Speaker 3: can watch the facial expressions. You can listen for the
[1:35:24] Speaker 3: flatlining of the tone. You can listen for things that
[1:35:27] Speaker 3: don't sound human. You can listen for certain words that
[1:35:32] Speaker 3: are misphrased because it's about reading it and they don't
[1:35:39] Speaker 3: know the nuance of the word when you hear. You've
[1:35:42] Speaker 3: got to get you know, your antenna up while working
[1:35:45] Speaker 3: through this. Now, there are ways in the future and
[1:35:50] Speaker 3: these are coming to watermark you know, fake content and
[1:35:55] Speaker 3: for systems to be able to identify the content. Because remember,
[1:35:59] Speaker 3: with all the same AI can get right back to
[1:36:02] Speaker 3: wherever the source of that content is and can flag
[1:36:05] Speaker 3: it immediately. Where was the generated where's the you know,
[1:36:08] Speaker 3: where is the birth? So you remember, AI is also
[1:36:13] Speaker 3: going to be the good guy here. We need AI
[1:36:17] Speaker 3: the fight AI, which is going to be really interesting.
[1:36:21] Speaker 3: So we've got good AI versus bad AI. It's going
[1:36:24] Speaker 3: to be cat and mouse for a while. But you know,
[1:36:26] Speaker 3: we've got to get to this because this is also
[1:36:30] Speaker 3: very disruptive and it causes you know, listen, it can
[1:36:33] Speaker 3: cause riots because all kinds of problems can happen for
[1:36:37] Speaker 3: something is flagged as being false now in the future,
[1:36:42] Speaker 3: and in the book, in Restoring Our Saturday Online, I'm
[1:36:45] Speaker 3: going to talk in the book at three chapters on
[1:36:48] Speaker 3: Web three, and I'm also going to talk about Web
[1:36:52] Speaker 3: four because for most of you Web three, you don't
[1:36:55] Speaker 3: even know what that means anyhow, what the heck is
[1:36:58] Speaker 3: Web three? And does it work? And is it for me?
[1:37:00] Speaker 3: And you know, when's it ever going to come? Because
[1:37:03] Speaker 3: we've heard about Web three for a while. And really,
[1:37:06] Speaker 3: if I ask one hundred people to room what's Web three,
[1:37:08] Speaker 3: I'm going to get one hundred different answers, and I'm
[1:37:10] Speaker 3: going to get most people putting up their hands and saying,
[1:37:13] Speaker 3: I really don't know. So for everybody very simply Web
[1:37:17] Speaker 3: three is built on blockchain and functions mostly through wallets
[1:37:25] Speaker 3: that transact cryptocurrencies. Now, it was a big idea for
[1:37:32] Speaker 3: social media, amongst other things. The blockchain, by the way,
[1:37:36] Speaker 3: works well for fintech and for some other things. And
[1:37:40] Speaker 3: also just to quickly get rid of a myth, blockchain
[1:37:43] Speaker 3: doesn't give you any anonymity. So don't think that blockchains
[1:37:47] Speaker 3: give you anonymity, because you are totally connected anything you
[1:37:50] Speaker 3: do forever. So that's actually a very interesting aspect of blockchain.
[1:37:55] Speaker 3: Blockchainels doesn't work well as a building block for high anticipation,
[1:38:01] Speaker 3: high membership social media. It's too clunky, it's too slow,
[1:38:05] Speaker 3: too expensive, you know, it's it's all wrong. Even though
[1:38:09] Speaker 3: visionaries have been working on, you know, having a breakthrough
[1:38:13] Speaker 3: in that for years and Tim Berners lead the inventor
[1:38:16] Speaker 3: of the web through in the towel two years ago.
[1:38:19] Speaker 3: To forget it. Blockchain just doesn't work for social media.
[1:38:23] Speaker 3: But move on, and we've got to move on and
[1:38:28] Speaker 3: the idea of cryptocurrency. There's another problem with Web three.
[1:38:31] Speaker 3: If you've heard about Web three and social media, and
[1:38:34] Speaker 3: that is that on a large scale, you know above
[1:38:37] Speaker 3: let's say ten to fifty million people. Once you get
[1:38:41] Speaker 3: above that, people don't want to do it because Web
[1:38:46] Speaker 3: three is really based on commercializing your relationships. In other words,
[1:38:51] Speaker 3: the modernization scheme and the moderation scheme are all about
[1:38:55] Speaker 3: upvoting and down voting. There's all different ways that you
[1:38:59] Speaker 3: can either get a piece of cryptocurrency or give a
[1:39:03] Speaker 3: fragment of cryptocurrency to a friend or to somebody or
[1:39:07] Speaker 3: a content provider, you know, a creator, and human beings
[1:39:14] Speaker 3: don't want to monetize their relationship. This is almost like
[1:39:17] Speaker 3: the last frontier, right, and it's been proven because there
[1:39:20] Speaker 3: have been social media companies built in Web three since
[1:39:23] Speaker 3: twenty seventeen twenty eighteen. They never get more than about
[1:39:27] Speaker 3: a million active users. So you know, it's it's just
[1:39:32] Speaker 3: not going to work, and we need a better system.
[1:39:34] Speaker 3: So in the book, I'm going to bring you to
[1:39:36] Speaker 3: Web four and we're going to talk about what really
[1:39:40] Speaker 3: is going to work great, and I'm not going to
[1:39:42] Speaker 3: throw everything. You know, we're not gonna throw the baby
[1:39:44] Speaker 3: out with the bathwater. We're going to take the best
[1:39:47] Speaker 3: and we're going to innovate, and some of these things
[1:39:50] Speaker 3: are really straightforward, you know, and data portability is coming.
[1:39:55] Speaker 3: So you'll be able to download your data off of
[1:39:58] Speaker 3: Facebook if you don't like it, move it to somebody
[1:40:01] Speaker 3: who's built a product you love, and your friends are
[1:40:03] Speaker 3: gonna be able to come there with you, because until now,
[1:40:07] Speaker 3: we're stuck in what's called the network effect. And you
[1:40:10] Speaker 3: all know it. You might have found the site you
[1:40:12] Speaker 3: love that's cool and you think it's really like the
[1:40:14] Speaker 3: next cutting edge thing, and it also respects you, and
[1:40:18] Speaker 3: you know it takes care of your privy and all
[1:40:19] Speaker 3: that stuff, but nobody comes with you. It's called the
[1:40:22] Speaker 3: network effect. We're all stuck on Meta because their family
[1:40:26] Speaker 3: is there and their friends are. You know, it's more
[1:40:28] Speaker 3: than just you taking them. It's more than just you
[1:40:29] Speaker 3: taking your family, because then they have their people. It's
[1:40:32] Speaker 3: a network effect. That's what happens to monopoly. Imagine if
[1:40:37] Speaker 3: you can just download your data in a perfectly organized packet,
[1:40:41] Speaker 3: if you're controlling it, you're actually uploading it and downloading it,
[1:40:44] Speaker 3: nobody has access to your data, and then you could
[1:40:47] Speaker 3: just move with somewhere else, and therefore everybody can. That's
[1:40:51] Speaker 3: the free market. Tim berners Lee has invented a system
[1:40:54] Speaker 3: for that, a really great protocol called solid pods along
[1:40:58] Speaker 3: with a solid wallet so that your identification can be
[1:41:01] Speaker 3: managed and your money can be managed inside of a
[1:41:05] Speaker 3: very protected pod that you control. It's not controlled by
[1:41:09] Speaker 3: the big guys. It's not up in a centralized server system.
[1:41:13] Speaker 3: So the future is actually really exciting, Chris, really exciting.
[1:41:18] Speaker 1: Well, how should we approach the increasing problem of censorship
[1:41:23] Speaker 1: and infringement on our free speech, especially when dealing with
[1:41:27] Speaker 1: these platforms. I do this for a living. I have
[1:41:30] Speaker 1: been affected by censorship on multiple platforms. Do you think
[1:41:35] Speaker 1: there's a way to get out of the situation and
[1:41:40] Speaker 1: where we're headed with this right now?
[1:41:44] Speaker 3: You know, it's very interesting this question, And you know,
[1:41:49] Speaker 3: as a free market person, I also believe that sites
[1:41:55] Speaker 3: have the right to make their own terms and conditions
[1:42:00] Speaker 3: inside of the federal laws, if not state laws that
[1:42:06] Speaker 3: protect kids, you know, and things like that. So if
[1:42:13] Speaker 3: this is why we need the free market working so
[1:42:16] Speaker 3: that it's not controlled by big tech that just blocks
[1:42:18] Speaker 3: you out, for example, but that there are many choices
[1:42:23] Speaker 3: for you and me and for everybody, so that you know,
[1:42:27] Speaker 3: one guy you know says, oh, you know what, I
[1:42:30] Speaker 3: only want this kind of kind of These are my rules,
[1:42:32] Speaker 3: Here are my terms and conditions, and another site says,
[1:42:35] Speaker 3: here are my terms and conditions, and you know, the
[1:42:38] Speaker 3: First Amendment protects their right to do that also, while
[1:42:41] Speaker 3: it protects your right to say what you want to say.
[1:42:43] Speaker 3: It's interesting the First Amendment protects both. So well, we
[1:42:49] Speaker 3: this is again where we must break the stranglehold of
[1:42:54] Speaker 3: the monopolies and get back to a high functioning freemonk market,
[1:43:01] Speaker 3: which you know is the most effective way for capitalism
[1:43:04] Speaker 3: to function anyhow. So that's what we've got to do,
[1:43:08] Speaker 3: because you know, we really don't want to regulate what
[1:43:16] Speaker 3: how how a site moderates you. That's as bad as censorship,
[1:43:20] Speaker 3: because then what happens when an administration changes, you know what,
[1:43:25] Speaker 3: you know, it's like, wait a minute, this is this
[1:43:27] Speaker 3: is going to get messy. That's that's the slippery slope
[1:43:31] Speaker 3: we're going to avoid. And at the same time, we
[1:43:34] Speaker 3: want to make sure that you have good outlets, everybody
[1:43:38] Speaker 3: has good you know, if there's market demand, that the
[1:43:41] Speaker 3: free market works so that you or somebody else can
[1:43:44] Speaker 3: create the app where you know, you can reach everybody
[1:43:49] Speaker 3: you want to reach. Right now, it's all it's all closed,
[1:43:52] Speaker 3: it's all shut down. You know, look at look at them,
[1:43:56] Speaker 3: you know, I mean, just look at all the bigger
[1:43:58] Speaker 3: ones guys, right, you know, you always know when there's
[1:44:01] Speaker 3: monopolies in play because you know, you just look at
[1:44:04] Speaker 3: how long the big guy's been there. Now, keep in
[1:44:07] Speaker 3: mind everybody tech moves fast, so you know, we've got
[1:44:11] Speaker 3: you know, but it slowed down. So now if we've
[1:44:14] Speaker 3: got ten years, we've got fifteen years of you know,
[1:44:17] Speaker 3: Facebook is twenty years, right, and we've got WhatsApp, and
[1:44:21] Speaker 3: we've got Snap, you know, and we've got Insta, you know,
[1:44:25] Speaker 3: and of course WhatsApp, you know, an Insta and Facebook
[1:44:30] Speaker 3: Arometa his Facebook was Facebook then it what install WhatsApp.
[1:44:36] Speaker 3: WhatsApp was a great you know, you know, encrypted you
[1:44:40] Speaker 3: know app that was used around the world. But you know,
[1:44:44] Speaker 3: people were paying attention, and Menta bought it and Meta said, okay,
[1:44:47] Speaker 3: look we're going to track you. We're going to take
[1:44:50] Speaker 3: every piece of data. Weekend, they changed their privacy policies.
[1:44:52] Speaker 3: I wrote about this in twenty sixteen. The first time
[1:44:55] Speaker 3: they did it, nobody was paying attention. You know. Eventually
[1:44:59] Speaker 3: the WhatsApp got billionaires that they are resigned from you know,
[1:45:03] Speaker 3: from Meta, just like the Instagram guys that they resigned
[1:45:06] Speaker 3: billionaires that they are, but they couldn't you know, tolerate
[1:45:10] Speaker 3: in their own conscience what happened to their users and
[1:45:14] Speaker 3: their users data. So, by the way, if you're if
[1:45:19] Speaker 3: you're using encrypted apps today, I highly recommend that you
[1:45:23] Speaker 3: move over the Signal you know, or Telegram, because WhatsApp
[1:45:28] Speaker 3: is as they state, you know, there, they know who
[1:45:31] Speaker 3: you're talking to, they know where you are, they know
[1:45:33] Speaker 3: when you talk to them, they know everything except the
[1:45:35] Speaker 3: conversation on the insiety.
[1:45:37] Speaker 1: Speaking, but they speaking of Telegram. Have you heard anything
[1:45:42] Speaker 1: lately about the state of the legal situation that's going
[1:45:49] Speaker 1: on with Telegram right now?
[1:45:52] Speaker 3: You know, I haven't followed that case particularly closely in France,
[1:45:59] Speaker 3: but I understand there have been some you know, first
[1:46:03] Speaker 3: it seemed quite harsh, then it seemed maybe there's some cooperation.
[1:46:07] Speaker 2: Uh.
[1:46:07] Speaker 3: You know. Basically, my my rule of thumb is go
[1:46:10] Speaker 3: to Signal. It's a nonprofit, it's got you know, a
[1:46:13] Speaker 3: great team behind it. You know, I just don't want
[1:46:17] Speaker 3: to get too immersed in purposely sort of stay away
[1:46:20] Speaker 3: from the politics of what's going on with Telegram. I
[1:46:24] Speaker 3: think Signal is that just you know, they've got their
[1:46:27] Speaker 3: nose cleaned. They're started for the right reasons. You know,
[1:46:29] Speaker 3: they carefully created their operations as a non for profit
[1:46:35] Speaker 3: so that you know they're they're they're run properly. I
[1:46:39] Speaker 3: think that's the best place to be if you're going
[1:46:40] Speaker 3: to do encrypted, you know, conversations.
[1:46:43] Speaker 1: Now, let's look at a positive side of some of this.
[1:46:47] Speaker 1: In one of your chapters, you discuss how social media
[1:46:50] Speaker 1: can be actually good for our mental health. Tell us
[1:46:53] Speaker 1: a little bit about that.
[1:46:56] Speaker 3: Listen, everybody, this is the whole point right now. I
[1:46:59] Speaker 3: love so from media. I love it. I mean, I'm
[1:47:02] Speaker 3: one of the guys who invented this thing. It's like, wow,
[1:47:05] Speaker 3: what a brilliant idea. We're spread out around the world.
[1:47:09] Speaker 3: You know, if family members can be everywhere, we can
[1:47:13] Speaker 3: work from anywhere, and we could thirty years ago too.
[1:47:17] Speaker 3: Now more than ever, so, the whole idea social media
[1:47:23] Speaker 3: is connection. Stay connected. Now, if we can stay connected
[1:47:28] Speaker 3: without being addicted to the app because we're being manipulated,
[1:47:36] Speaker 3: without having our thoughts and opinions manipulated, you know, where
[1:47:41] Speaker 3: we're just really connected to family, friends and liked by
[1:47:45] Speaker 3: the people were choosing to connect with. And if we
[1:47:49] Speaker 3: you know, check a box where we want content from
[1:47:52] Speaker 3: this source of that source of this source of that
[1:47:54] Speaker 3: source where we know, you know, we know where it's
[1:47:56] Speaker 3: coming from. So you know, it's it's it's really just
[1:48:00] Speaker 3: common sense, right then. Social media, as it was in
[1:48:05] Speaker 3: the past, Web one, it's actually really good for us,
[1:48:09] Speaker 3: really good for the world. It brings the world together,
[1:48:11] Speaker 3: makes the world a more cohesive place, and it gives
[1:48:15] Speaker 3: us connectivity with our loved ones that you know. I mean,
[1:48:21] Speaker 3: we got chat and we got email back in the nineties,
[1:48:25] Speaker 3: but this is so much better. I mean, look, we've
[1:48:28] Speaker 3: got FaceTime, right, which is incredible. We have ways to
[1:48:33] Speaker 3: stay connected and social media uses you know. I mean, look,
[1:48:37] Speaker 3: we've got these dual cameras, We've got these stories we
[1:48:40] Speaker 3: can create. I mean, we're all artists now, you know,
[1:48:43] Speaker 3: we can follow our favorite you know, creators, you know,
[1:48:49] Speaker 3: whether you know you're a Swiftie or whoever you are.
[1:48:52] Speaker 3: I mean, it's this is really a lot of fun.
[1:48:56] Speaker 3: And this is but and here's the asterisk. If you're
[1:49:01] Speaker 3: a parent, you've got to keep you know, there's a
[1:49:05] Speaker 3: lot of rules here because kids aren't healthy. You know.
[1:49:09] Speaker 3: There's a guy, Jonathan hat Let's book on my desk
[1:49:12] Speaker 3: somewhere the anxious generation kids. The data is the kids
[1:49:20] Speaker 3: are on their phones five to seven hours a day.
[1:49:24] Speaker 3: Got to get their phones out of everybody's bedroom, including ears.
[1:49:27] Speaker 3: If you're an adult, you know you got to have
[1:49:30] Speaker 3: a cutoff point. Everybody's phone is charging somewhere away from
[1:49:36] Speaker 3: the bedroom. Never have a phone in the bedroom at night.
[1:49:39] Speaker 3: It's like, you know, you go to bed, boom phones out.
[1:49:42] Speaker 3: You know you need an alarm, turn on an alarm clock.
[1:49:46] Speaker 3: Get your phone out of the room because you wake
[1:49:47] Speaker 3: up in the middle of the night, you're gonna look
[1:49:49] Speaker 3: at it. And there's so many studies that confirm that
[1:49:52] Speaker 3: if your phone is around you, it interferes with your sleep.
[1:49:55] Speaker 3: You know, we're look school kids are all asleep deprived. Now,
[1:49:58] Speaker 3: there's tons of of research on this. So it's also
[1:50:02] Speaker 3: like no phones at the dinner table. These are just basics.
[1:50:06] Speaker 3: And I'm a techie, but you know what, we sit
[1:50:09] Speaker 3: down to dinner. You sit down dinner with your family,
[1:50:12] Speaker 3: phones out. If you've got a one year old or
[1:50:14] Speaker 3: a two year old or an infant, please don't give
[1:50:18] Speaker 3: them a phone to pacify them. I know moms and
[1:50:21] Speaker 3: dads are crazy busy. You know what put up with
[1:50:25] Speaker 3: a little bit of noise and find, you know, let
[1:50:28] Speaker 3: them flip a book or let them be entertained by
[1:50:31] Speaker 3: a toy or a staffe or something. Once they learn
[1:50:35] Speaker 3: there's no phone at the table, they'll never bother you again.
[1:50:38] Speaker 3: My kids never have. It's just from the beginning. And
[1:50:42] Speaker 3: Sweden has just said no screen for any kid under two.
[1:50:46] Speaker 3: Oh wow, no screen, tulvid and screen, no phone. But
[1:50:50] Speaker 3: here's why, everybody, the screen is addictive. We know this
[1:50:54] Speaker 3: even if you're older. Look, I grew up with televisions
[1:50:58] Speaker 3: and telephones, right, so if you didn't grow up with Facebook,
[1:51:03] Speaker 3: but you still grew up with televisions and telephones, and
[1:51:06] Speaker 3: our parents had to regulate that stuff because otherwise we
[1:51:09] Speaker 3: would have been on the phone all the time, we
[1:51:11] Speaker 3: would have watched TV all the time. It's no different.
[1:51:15] Speaker 3: We got to regulate. Yes, we're busy. If you find
[1:51:19] Speaker 3: it convenient because you're so overwhelmed that you stick a
[1:51:23] Speaker 3: phone or an iPad or something in front of your kid,
[1:51:27] Speaker 3: you're actually harming the kid and yourself because you're going
[1:51:32] Speaker 3: to make your parenting harder for the next twenty five
[1:51:36] Speaker 3: years than you can even imagine. And I mean the
[1:51:38] Speaker 3: next twenty five years, because you're going to create addictions
[1:51:41] Speaker 3: for your kids that are going to create huge frustrations
[1:51:43] Speaker 3: for you and problems for them with concentration and everything else.
[1:51:48] Speaker 1: Well, you said something very important earlier that I agree with,
[1:51:53] Speaker 1: and I think that we are indeed in an era
[1:51:56] Speaker 1: of opportunity for people who are starting their own businesses,
[1:52:01] Speaker 1: who have the technological know how to be creative online
[1:52:06] Speaker 1: and make a living and do things that are not
[1:52:09] Speaker 1: only beneficial for the collective, but things that make you
[1:52:13] Speaker 1: feel good about what you're doing. And we have more
[1:52:15] Speaker 1: and more people making their own movies, starting their own
[1:52:18] Speaker 1: companies from the ground, starting their own content creation, independent
[1:52:24] Speaker 1: media outlets. So it's in a very exciting time for
[1:52:29] Speaker 1: the regular person to be able to do incredible things
[1:52:33] Speaker 1: because we have access to this technology. The unfortunate thing
[1:52:37] Speaker 1: is there's many that believe that these tech giants are
[1:52:41] Speaker 1: too big to fail and there is no way to
[1:52:46] Speaker 1: get around some of the ideologies and traps that we've
[1:52:51] Speaker 1: been introduced to. And it's many people believe that it's
[1:52:57] Speaker 1: impossible to get from under the thumb of these big
[1:53:01] Speaker 1: tech giants. But I think it's happening slowly and we're
[1:53:06] Speaker 1: seeing it unfold before our eyes. It's just not happening
[1:53:09] Speaker 1: at a pace where we could truly notice it collectively.
[1:53:14] Speaker 1: But I do think that slowly but surely, there's more
[1:53:17] Speaker 1: and more people who are starting from the bottom and
[1:53:20] Speaker 1: making the changes that will affect everything for the future.
[1:53:25] Speaker 3: You know, it's the wild West still because tech is
[1:53:29] Speaker 3: a baby. So you know the fact that we are
[1:53:32] Speaker 3: able to be looking at all these problems right now
[1:53:36] Speaker 3: just you know, thirty years into it, and really twenty
[1:53:39] Speaker 3: years since Facebook started, and you know, seventeen years since
[1:53:45] Speaker 3: Facebook became you know, a significant you know, part of
[1:53:49] Speaker 3: our world. This is it's a fascinating time. The government
[1:53:53] Speaker 3: is catching up. Remember the white here guys the government
[1:53:56] Speaker 3: twenty years ago had never used a technolo LG platform.
[1:54:00] Speaker 3: They many of them didn't even know how to use email.
[1:54:04] Speaker 3: So fast forward to today and the white haired guys
[1:54:07] Speaker 3: in government now all at least understand tech. So and
[1:54:12] Speaker 3: many of them now grew up with some kind of
[1:54:15] Speaker 3: tech because, like we said, there is email in the nineties.
[1:54:17] Speaker 3: So if they're white haired guys today, but they are
[1:54:19] Speaker 3: twenty or thirty in the nineties, then you know they're
[1:54:23] Speaker 3: they're they're here, they're with us, they're they're understanding. You know,
[1:54:27] Speaker 3: look at Tim Cook, look at some of the senior executives.
[1:54:32] Speaker 3: He's not a young guy. You know, jobs wouldn't be
[1:54:34] Speaker 3: young today, you know. So you know, we've got a
[1:54:39] Speaker 3: big opportunity for the you know, and a breeding ground
[1:54:43] Speaker 3: for the next great ones. Now, Chris, you said something
[1:54:47] Speaker 3: earlier that I don't want to step over. And you
[1:54:50] Speaker 3: know this aspect of if you become successful, then you're
[1:54:55] Speaker 3: gonna get bought out, and then you know, that's the
[1:54:57] Speaker 3: monopolies happened. Now getting bought out is okay everybody, because
[1:55:03] Speaker 3: you know, we're entrepreneurs. We live in capitalism. And if
[1:55:06] Speaker 3: you track the inevitability of a successful entity, unless you're
[1:55:13] Speaker 3: keeping it to hand it down generation generation, there comes
[1:55:15] Speaker 3: a time as your success grows and grows where you've
[1:55:20] Speaker 3: become attractive to a larger fish that once it gall
[1:55:23] Speaker 3: be you up now in and of itself, there's nothing
[1:55:27] Speaker 3: wrong with that as long as the government is watching
[1:55:31] Speaker 3: to make sure that the largest supermarket chain in the
[1:55:34] Speaker 3: country doesn't buy the second largest supermarket chain in the
[1:55:37] Speaker 3: country and create a massive monopoly where they control all
[1:55:40] Speaker 3: the prices of everything from you know production to you know,
[1:55:44] Speaker 3: sale to your table. So that's okay. You know this
[1:55:49] Speaker 3: idea of you know, acquisition of being acquired, that's a
[1:55:53] Speaker 3: good good thing to aspire to if that's your goal,
[1:55:55] Speaker 3: or to create franchise opportunities or whatever it is, to
[1:55:58] Speaker 3: create a new technology. Now also for creators. Now, one
[1:56:03] Speaker 3: of our challenges around the creator environment. Now I'm a
[1:56:06] Speaker 3: big in the book. I am going to totally empower creators.
[1:56:11] Speaker 3: This book is really about the creator economy, restoring our
[1:56:14] Speaker 3: stity online, Totally about the creator economy. So and B corps,
[1:56:21] Speaker 3: which we know are you know very you know, giving
[1:56:24] Speaker 3: back sharing with shareholders, users, everybody. Also, I'm going to
[1:56:30] Speaker 3: talk about user advisory boards. I'm going to talk about
[1:56:33] Speaker 3: you know, jury of your peers for censorship. We're going
[1:56:36] Speaker 3: to talk about things that are really actually pretty straightforward
[1:56:38] Speaker 3: to implement so that users are empowered while the executive
[1:56:44] Speaker 3: team can run the company. You know, this is really
[1:56:48] Speaker 3: conscious capitalism at work. And listen, they're great companies, Salesforce, Southwest,
[1:56:53] Speaker 3: container Store, Patagonia, They're huge companies, Whole Foods, you know,
[1:56:59] Speaker 3: all these great companies that you are either be corpse
[1:57:03] Speaker 3: or conscious capitalism corporations, and this is all about doing
[1:57:07] Speaker 3: well by doing good, and the data shows that actually,
[1:57:10] Speaker 3: the more ethical you are about how you do your business,
[1:57:12] Speaker 3: the more compassionate you know with fellow humans, the better
[1:57:17] Speaker 3: you do well doing well by doing good. Raj to Sodi,
[1:57:22] Speaker 3: the co founder of Conscious Capitalism, which has chapters around
[1:57:26] Speaker 3: the world like two hundred countries. Now you know, Raj
[1:57:29] Speaker 3: endorsed this book and he said every business executive has
[1:57:32] Speaker 3: to read this book. So there's there's a whole methodology
[1:57:36] Speaker 3: here for how we transform business on the web.
[1:57:40] Speaker 1: You mentioned how it's essentially the wild world West online
[1:57:46] Speaker 1: right now, are you optimistic that it will eventually tame
[1:57:51] Speaker 1: itself and become something more beneficial to humanity?
[1:57:57] Speaker 3: Well, I say it's the wild West. This is what
[1:58:00] Speaker 3: it's becoming. It was the wild West at the beginning
[1:58:02] Speaker 3: of Web one, which is all about serving humanity because
[1:58:06] Speaker 3: the premise of capitalism is come up with a great
[1:58:10] Speaker 3: product or service that people that loves, that serves and
[1:58:13] Speaker 3: delights people, so your customers love it and you'll be successful.
[1:58:17] Speaker 3: Then it quickly folded into monopolies. Facebook becomes successful, for example,
[1:58:23] Speaker 3: then they get funded with hundreds of millions of dollars.
[1:58:26] Speaker 3: Then nobody else can get funded because now and then
[1:58:29] Speaker 3: they acquire or squeeze out of business all their competitors.
[1:58:34] Speaker 3: You know, this is well documented, et cetera. So what
[1:58:37] Speaker 3: we want is to get back to the wild west
[1:58:40] Speaker 3: of you have a good idea and you've got good
[1:58:44] Speaker 3: business acumen, and you want to go for it. You
[1:58:47] Speaker 3: can figure out how to do it, and no one's
[1:58:49] Speaker 3: going to say to you. Now, you know Facebook, you
[1:58:52] Speaker 3: know Google, Sorry, they own that space. You're never going
[1:58:55] Speaker 3: to have any luck. So we want a bit of that,
[1:58:59] Speaker 3: and then the sanity. It's interesting, the sanity is part
[1:59:04] Speaker 3: of that sort of insanity that free market working. But
[1:59:08] Speaker 3: then the companies that do it right are going to
[1:59:11] Speaker 3: be successful. And remember that's the idea. What we need
[1:59:17] Speaker 3: is that the top line. We need the government managing
[1:59:21] Speaker 3: antitrust regulation. And it's possible, by the way, with the
[1:59:25] Speaker 3: incoming administration, we might see some movement. Listen, there are bills,
[1:59:32] Speaker 3: the American Privacy Rights Act OPERA, the Kids Online Safety
[1:59:36] Speaker 3: Act KOSA, CULPA two, Child Online Protection and Privacy Protection Act.
[1:59:42] Speaker 3: I mean, there are things in Congress with bipartisan support
[1:59:49] Speaker 3: that you know, if you look at President Trump's historical
[1:59:54] Speaker 3: perspectives that he may very well support, we may very
[2:00:00] Speaker 3: well get some, you know, the things across the finish line.
[2:00:05] Speaker 3: America is the only country in the G twenty that
[2:00:08] Speaker 3: doesn't have a privacy build privacy rights legislation for every American.
[2:00:14] Speaker 3: We're the only country that doesn't have that. It's time
[2:00:18] Speaker 3: to fix these things.
[2:00:19] Speaker 1: Mark, this was great information. Thank you so much. Before
[2:00:23] Speaker 1: we close out, remind everybody the best way that they
[2:00:26] Speaker 1: can find out more about you and pick up your book.
[2:00:31] Speaker 3: Everybody, thank you for listening. And I know you're not
[2:00:33] Speaker 3: you know the whole point of conversation. Remember, I'm not
[2:00:37] Speaker 3: expecting you to agree or disagree with everything that we
[2:00:40] Speaker 3: talked about today. I want us to be talking about it.
[2:00:43] Speaker 3: I want us to be empowered. I want you to
[2:00:46] Speaker 3: feel powerful again about your choices on social media, about
[2:00:50] Speaker 3: your control. That's what it's all about. The book, Restoring
[2:00:54] Speaker 3: Our Saturday Online, a revolutionary social framework, is available wherever
[2:00:59] Speaker 3: books are sold Amazon, Barnes and Noble independent bookstores. You
[2:01:04] Speaker 3: name it, Welcome into a bookstore, and if you can't
[2:01:06] Speaker 3: find it, just you know, order it, and if you
[2:01:08] Speaker 3: really love it, please get a second one and give
[2:01:10] Speaker 3: it to somebody, a library, a school, a friend. We've
[2:01:14] Speaker 3: got to get everybody back on the same page going,
[2:01:17] Speaker 3: oh wow, I can do this. Also in the book
[2:01:20] Speaker 3: their action plans in almost every chapter what you can
[2:01:24] Speaker 3: do right now, spotting about control, you know, not being fished,
[2:01:27] Speaker 3: taking care of your kids, working together, getting all this done.
[2:01:30] Speaker 3: It's all there, what we what we can do right now,
[2:01:33] Speaker 3: And there's some appendices on you know how we fix
[2:01:37] Speaker 3: a lot of things. You can reach me Mark m
[2:01:40] Speaker 3: A r k at restore theweb dot com market restore
[2:01:45] Speaker 3: theweb dot com. You can go to my website, Mark Weinstein,
[2:01:50] Speaker 3: Inventor dot com. It's m A r K W e
[2:01:54] Speaker 3: I N S T e I N Inventor dot com.
[2:02:00] Speaker 3: And you know again where we can do this. We're
[2:02:03] Speaker 3: doing it. It's at a very exciting time and we're
[2:02:08] Speaker 3: going to get this done. So I want everybody to
[2:02:09] Speaker 3: feel like, Okay, we've now seen how bad it can get.
[2:02:14] Speaker 3: Now let's get it back. Our mental health, kids, mental health,
[2:02:17] Speaker 3: civil discourse, critical thinking, democracy, This is all right in
[2:02:23] Speaker 3: our hands to make it work better for all of
[2:02:27] Speaker 3: us and for future generations. Take our privacy back, control
[2:02:33] Speaker 3: our data. And if you think it's too late for
[2:02:35] Speaker 3: your privacy, don't worry. It's too late for mine too,
[2:02:38] Speaker 3: but it's not too late for our kids and their kids.
[2:02:42] Speaker 3: It's not too late to start right now. We take
[2:02:45] Speaker 3: our data back control of our data using Tim's pods
[2:02:49] Speaker 3: or something similar. We've got privacy again.
[2:02:53] Speaker 1: Mark, great information, Thank you again. Definitely love to talk
[2:02:57] Speaker 1: more in the future. I'll have all your links easily
[2:03:00] Speaker 1: accessible for everyone writing the description. And until next time, everyone,
[2:03:04] Speaker 1: have a wonderful evening. We will talk again tomorrow. If
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