# Kevin Randle | Strange Visitors: UFO Crash & Alien Body Retrievals, Abductions & Evidence

An episode of [Forbidden Knowledge News](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1470192028), 26 Aug 2026, 1 h 09 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/74704287/fknepisodeskrandle_hd_720p_medium_fr30_26082026.mp3

Kevin's links https://www.amazon.com/UFO-Sightings-Alien-Visitations-Unexplained/dp/1578598788 https://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/?m=1 Forbidden Knowledge Network https://forbiddenknowledge.news/ FKN Link Tree https://linktr.ee/FKNlinks Make a Donation to Forbidden Knowledge News https://www.paypal.me/forbiddenknowledgene https://buymeacoffee.com/forbidden FKN Merch! https://galactecfire.com/fkn/p Get C60 Power now! https://go.shopc60.com/3J67C/KMKS9/ Code: FORBIDDEN10 We are back on YouTube! https://youtube.com/@forbiddenknowledgenews?si=XQhXCjteMKYNUJSj Backup channel https://youtube.com/@fknshow1?si=tIoIjpUGeSoRNaEs Doors of Perception is available now on Amazon Prime! https://watch.amazon.com/detail?gti=amzn1.dv.gti.8a60e6c7-678d-4502-b335-adfbb30697b8&ref_=atv_lp_share_mv&r=web Doors of Perception official trailer https://youtu.be/F-VJ01kMSII?si=Ee6xwtUONA18HNLZ Listen to Forbidden Knowledge News on clearair.fm every Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday 12:15pm CST https://clearair.fm/ Pick up Independent Media Token here https://www.independentmediatoken.com/ Be prepared for any emergency with Prep Starts Now! https://prepstartsnow.com/discount/FKN Start your microdosing journey with Brainsupreme Get 15% off your order here!! https://brainsupreme.co/FKN15 Book a free consultation with Jennifer Halcame Email jenniferhalcame@gmail.com Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61561665957079&mibextid=ZbWKwL Watch The Forbidden Documentary: Occult Louisiana on Tubi: https://link.tubi.tv/pGXW6chxCJb Johnny Larson's artwork https://www.patreon.com/JohnnyLarson Sign up on Rokfin! https://rokfin.com/fknplus Podcasts https://www.spreaker.com/show/forbidden Available on all platforms Support FKN on Spreaker https://spreaker.page.link/KoPgfbEq8kcsR5oj9 FKN ON Rumble https://rumble.com/c/FKNp Get Cory Hughes books! Lee Harvey Oswald In Black and White https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FJ2PQJRM A Warning From History Audio book https://buymeacoffee.com/jfkbook/e/392579 https://www.buymeacoffee.com/jfkbook https://www.amazon.com/Warning-History-Cory-Hughes/dp/B0CL14VQY6/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=72HEFZQA7TAP&keywords=a+warning+from+history+cory+hughes&qid=1698861279&sprefix=a+warning+fro%2Caps%2C121&sr=8-1 https://coryhughes.org/ Our Facebook pages https://www.facebook.com/forbiddenknowledgenewsconspiracy/ https://www.facebook.com/FKNNetwork/ Instagram @forbiddenknowledgenews1 @forbiddenknowledgenetwork X https://x.com/ForbiddenKnow10?t=uO5AqEtDuHdF9fXYtCUtfw&s=09 Email Forbidden Knowledge News forbiddenknowledgenews@gmail.com some music thanks to: https://www.bensound.com/ ULFAPO3OJSCGN8LD DGLBEYNSIXA6EMZJ 5FUXWYNC6WJNJKRS 8DH27IXE3D73E97D C6JMAFZLSZDGTWFI Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/forbidden-knowledge-news--3589233/support.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: Hey guys, I want to reintroduce you all to C60 Power.
[0:04] Speaker 1: C60 is a super antioxidant. It works at the cellular
[0:08] Speaker 1: level to neutralize oxidative stress and free radicals. It promotes
[0:14] Speaker 1: a healthy inflammatory response, a balanced immune and histamine response,
[0:19] Speaker 1: and most people note an increase in energy and mental
[0:22] Speaker 1: clarity when adding it to their daily morning routine. I
[0:26] Speaker 1: started taking C60 in 2020. And the benefits I've experienced
[0:30] Speaker 1: are absolutely incredible. I used to be overweight, sick, and
[0:35] Speaker 1: tired all the time. After six months of C60 use,
[0:39] Speaker 1: I lost tons of weight, I got all my energy back,
[0:42] Speaker 1: and I haven't even been sick since then. I'm not
[0:46] Speaker 1: saying that this is because of C60 in any way,
[0:49] Speaker 1: but it happened while I was taking it. One more
[0:52] Speaker 1: thing to reiterate, it's a super antioxidant. Without making any
[0:57] Speaker 1: big claims about prevention of certain big bad illnesses, I'll
[1:02] Speaker 1: say there's a reason the product is expensive. Because it works.
[1:07] Speaker 1: Use the link in the description. Check out all their products,
[1:10] Speaker 1: including gummies, oils, and even face creams. You'll get 10%
[1:15] Speaker 1: off the entire order by using the link or code
[1:18] Speaker 1: FORBIDDEN10 at checkout. I think it's just going to get
[1:23] Speaker 1: weirder and weirder and weirder, and finally it's going to
[1:26] Speaker 1: be so weird that people are going to have to
[1:29] Speaker 1: talk about how weird it is. Welcome back to Forbidden
[1:33] Speaker 1: Knowledge News. I'm your host, Chris Matthew. Today my guest
[1:36] Speaker 1: is Kevin Randall. Be sure and check out our merch shop,
[1:40] Speaker 1: Amazing T-Shirt Designs. We've got new designs going up all
[1:43] Speaker 1: the time. We're taking requests for designs. Use the link
[1:47] Speaker 1: in the description to go check those out. Email me
[1:50] Speaker 1: if you have any design suggestions. Check out my films,
[1:54] Speaker 1: Occult Louisiana's on Tubi, Doors of Perception on Amazon Prime.
[1:59] Speaker 1: I am booking guests for October. If you have suggestions
[2:02] Speaker 1: or you'd like to be a guest, email me, ForbiddenKnowledgeNews
[2:05] Speaker 1: at gmail.com. Today I want to welcome Kevin Randall. He's
[2:09] Speaker 1: an author, UFO researcher. and a retired Army Lieutenant Colonel
[2:14] Speaker 1: who served as a helicopter pilot and aircraft commander in Vietnam,
[2:18] Speaker 1: an Air Force intelligence officer, and later an Army intelligence officer. Kevin, welcome.
[2:24] Speaker 1: How you doing?
[2:26] Speaker 2: I'm doing well, and you're looking pretty good yourself.
[2:29] Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much. I'm feeling pretty good as well.
[2:32] Speaker 1: It's great to have you. I'm really looking forward to this.
[2:35] Speaker 1: We're going to discuss your research included in your book,
[2:38] Speaker 1: UFO Sightings and Alien Visitations. facts and falsehoods. It explores evidence, experiences,
[2:46] Speaker 1: and hidden details about UFOs, possible downed craft, sightings, encounters,
[2:52] Speaker 1: and other related high strangeness. It also exposes misinformation, disinformation,
[2:58] Speaker 1: and cover-ups. I am definitely here for all of this.
[3:02] Speaker 1: Love these topics. Before we get into it, though, this
[3:04] Speaker 1: is your first time on. Tell us a little bit
[3:07] Speaker 1: about yourself and let the audience know how they can
[3:10] Speaker 1: get more of you.
[3:12] Speaker 2: The easiest way to get more of me is I
[3:15] Speaker 2: have a blog at kevinrandall.blogspot.com, and I post things there periodically.
[3:21] Speaker 2: The book is available at Amazon, of course, so they
[3:23] Speaker 2: can take a look at that there. I myself have
[3:26] Speaker 2: been investigating UFOs since I was a teenager. My mother
[3:32] Speaker 2: got me interested in the topic when she took me
[3:34] Speaker 2: to see the movie Earth vs. the Flying Saucers. And
[3:37] Speaker 2: so my interest kind of grew out of that film.
[3:40] Speaker 2: And I remember sitting in high school reading Brad Steiger's
[3:44] Speaker 2: Strangers from the Sky, which kind of got things going.
[3:49] Speaker 2: The one thing that really kind of interested me was
[3:53] Speaker 2: the idea that at that time, and that was the
[3:57] Speaker 2: mid 1960s, that the government was claiming, well, these things
[4:01] Speaker 2: are fuzzy blobs of light in the sky and you
[4:03] Speaker 2: really don't have an idea what they are. And I
[4:06] Speaker 2: learned that one of my friend's mother had seen a
[4:08] Speaker 2: flying saucer. And so I went to talk to her
[4:13] Speaker 2: about it. And the only question I wanted answered was,
[4:15] Speaker 2: was it a distinct object, not a blob of light
[4:17] Speaker 2: in the sky or in the distance? And she said
[4:19] Speaker 2: it was very distinct. She got a very good look
[4:20] Speaker 2: at it. And that inspired me to go on. Of course,
[4:23] Speaker 2: you know, I have a military background. I flew helicopters
[4:26] Speaker 2: as a helicopter pilot, aircraft commander, and sometimes flight lead
[4:30] Speaker 2: in Vietnam. I went to college, did Air Force ROTC,
[4:36] Speaker 2: spent a number of years as an Air Force intelligence officer.
[4:41] Speaker 2: in the Air Force Reserve. And then after 9-11, I
[4:44] Speaker 2: got into the Iowa National Guard as an intelligence officer
[4:47] Speaker 2: and spent a year in Iraq doing that sort of thing.
[4:53] Speaker 2: Been investigating UFOs practically my entire life. Have contacted, talked to,
[4:59] Speaker 2: probably seen almost everybody you can mention in the UFO
[5:03] Speaker 2: field at some time or another. And I guess that's
[5:09] Speaker 2: pretty much everything you need to know. I don't know.
[5:11] Speaker 1: That's a perfect introduction. To start with, I'll say I
[5:15] Speaker 1: am very skeptical about the information being quote-unquote disclosed right now.
[5:21] Speaker 1: I believe there is some degree of psychological manipulation surrounding disclosure,
[5:27] Speaker 1: but I also believe that there's a genuine unexplained phenomena,
[5:30] Speaker 1: genuine encounters and sightings. Do you think that a significant
[5:36] Speaker 1: portion of not only sightings, but close encounters may have
[5:41] Speaker 1: been manufactured by intelligence or military groups?
[5:47] Speaker 2: I don't think that there has been a great disinformation
[5:50] Speaker 2: campaign by the military. I think that we've been doing
[5:53] Speaker 2: it to ourselves good enough. we're responsible for some of
[5:59] Speaker 2: the biggest hoax in the field that's taken the whole
[6:02] Speaker 2: investigations of a lot of things off the rails. And
[6:06] Speaker 2: I just can see the guys that are involved in
[6:08] Speaker 2: this and the MJ-12 papers come out and they're taking
[6:12] Speaker 2: credit for this great disinformation campaign. But of course, it
[6:16] Speaker 2: was originated inside the UFO community. When we look at
[6:19] Speaker 2: what's going on today with what I call the data dumps,
[6:25] Speaker 2: There's really nothing in there that we haven't seen before.
[6:30] Speaker 2: In fact, we have additional information that they don't have.
[6:32] Speaker 2: There's been some sightings that they have released that are
[6:35] Speaker 2: interesting and called unresolved. But since they're military oriented, they're
[6:40] Speaker 2: behind a wall for those of us on the outside
[6:43] Speaker 2: having trouble getting to the inside. So we don't get
[6:47] Speaker 2: the inside scoop on that. I just don't think the
[6:50] Speaker 2: disclosure is going back. to go much of anywhere. President
[6:56] Speaker 2: Trump had promised to some kind of a speech in
[6:59] Speaker 2: July about UFOs, UAP, and it just never came about.
[7:06] Speaker 2: So I'm wondering about that sort of thing. I thought
[7:09] Speaker 2: when Leslie Keen and Ralph Blumenthal did their article in
[7:12] Speaker 2: the New York Times in 2017, well, now we're taking
[7:15] Speaker 2: some steps toward disclosure, but here we are what, eight,
[7:19] Speaker 2: nine years down the road and we haven't gotten anything
[7:22] Speaker 2: really of importance to that other than access to some
[7:27] Speaker 2: sightings that they control the data on that we cannot
[7:30] Speaker 2: really investigate. We get to talk to some of the
[7:34] Speaker 2: people involved once in a while, but we just really
[7:37] Speaker 2: don't get the inside information. So I just don't think
[7:39] Speaker 2: there's a big push for disclosure. And I don't think that,
[7:45] Speaker 2: but I don't think there's been a real campaign of disinformation.
[7:49] Speaker 2: I will say, however, back in the 1960s, late 1960s,
[7:54] Speaker 2: that the Air Force contracted with the University of Colorado
[7:57] Speaker 2: to do the study of UFOs and Project Blue Book.
[8:00] Speaker 2: This is so-called Condon Committee. Before, before anything was done,
[8:07] Speaker 2: an Air Force officer named Hipler wrote a letter to
[8:10] Speaker 2: Robert Lowe, who was part of the Condon staff, saying,
[8:14] Speaker 2: this is what we want to find. The Air Force
[8:16] Speaker 2: has done a good job of investigation. There's nothing to
[8:18] Speaker 2: be learned by further investigation, and Project Blue Book should
[8:21] Speaker 2: be closed. Lo and behold, after 18 months, that's exactly
[8:25] Speaker 2: what they found. And then for 50 years after that,
[8:28] Speaker 2: we hear scientists say, well, we made a scientific study
[8:31] Speaker 2: of it, and there's just nothing there. Suddenly in 2017, oh, well,
[8:34] Speaker 2: wait a minute. There may be something that we could
[8:37] Speaker 2: learn from this. There is something going on. So we
[8:39] Speaker 2: can see the duplicity in that. If you're talking about
[8:43] Speaker 2: a disinformation campaign, the Conduct Committee probably is it. And
[8:46] Speaker 2: for those of who would like to see a copy
[8:48] Speaker 2: of the Hippler letter and the information that was written
[8:53] Speaker 2: in that letter, I have it up on my blog.
[8:55] Speaker 2: Just type Hippler into the searches and it'll take you
[8:57] Speaker 2: to the articles I've done about the Hippler letter and
[8:59] Speaker 2: this duplicity with the University of Colorado.
[9:03] Speaker 1: I'd love to go over some of the topics that
[9:06] Speaker 1: you wrote about in the book. Starting with the ancient
[9:10] Speaker 1: alien possibilities, I've covered this many times, and I find
[9:16] Speaker 1: these possibilities fascinating, whether you want to believe that beings
[9:20] Speaker 1: came down and helped create humanity, or they came to
[9:25] Speaker 1: influence us in some way. What are your thoughts on
[9:28] Speaker 1: the ancient alien possibility?
[9:31] Speaker 2: Well, it's conceivable there were sightings of alien craft back
[9:37] Speaker 2: in the ancient world I just don't think that the
[9:41] Speaker 2: aliens helped us much in our climb towards civilization. I mean,
[9:45] Speaker 2: they arrive in spacecraft, which are made of metal, yet
[9:49] Speaker 2: the only building materials they can find on Earth are stone.
[9:52] Speaker 2: Didn't they communicate any of the metalurgy to our our
[9:58] Speaker 2: ancestors rather than us finding it out ourselves and i
[10:02] Speaker 2: don't think there's much that was created in the ancient
[10:04] Speaker 2: world that our ancestors certainly were not incapable of creating
[10:09] Speaker 2: they made some very impressive works but i just don't
[10:15] Speaker 2: see the connection to the um To the idea that
[10:20] Speaker 2: the aliens were really influences us and if they were
[10:23] Speaker 2: doing that why'd they stop? Hmm. I think we've become
[10:26] Speaker 2: much more dangerous in today's world to them We've taken
[10:30] Speaker 2: the first steps into space We've launched a probe that
[10:33] Speaker 2: has left the solar system and we'll get to the
[10:35] Speaker 2: nearest planet in 73,000 years so we don't have to
[10:40] Speaker 2: worry about them backtracking on that but We've made that
[10:44] Speaker 2: sort of leap forward in space and travel. We've also
[10:49] Speaker 2: created the atomic bomb and that sort of thing. And
[10:51] Speaker 2: I think if you're an alien race, you'd be seeing
[10:55] Speaker 2: that sort of thing as a possible danger to you,
[10:59] Speaker 2: that a chemical rocket is never going to be capable
[11:01] Speaker 2: of reaching another planet in any kind of realistic way.
[11:06] Speaker 2: You've got to have a fuel source that will get
[11:09] Speaker 2: you toward relativistic speeds. And even with that, the nearest
[11:12] Speaker 2: planet is four light years away. it would take at
[11:15] Speaker 2: least four years to get there. If you began traveling
[11:18] Speaker 2: at the speed of light, but you've got to accelerate,
[11:20] Speaker 2: then you've got to accelerate at the other end. So the,
[11:23] Speaker 2: the length of time to get there is longer than
[11:27] Speaker 2: the four years. And then with the time dilation theory,
[11:34] Speaker 2: that the faster you go, the slower time moves for you,
[11:38] Speaker 2: but it's contingent at regular speed on earth. So you
[11:41] Speaker 2: could come back a thousand years in the future to, theoretically,
[11:45] Speaker 2: and then what are you coming back to? I mean,
[11:48] Speaker 2: if our ancestors in 1000 AD was able to launch
[11:55] Speaker 2: a spacecraft and it got to another planet and they
[11:58] Speaker 2: got back here a thousand years later, I mean, they
[12:02] Speaker 2: would just be astonished at the progress we've made. I
[12:05] Speaker 2: don't think they would understand that you and I would
[12:08] Speaker 2: be talking to one another, able to watch each other
[12:11] Speaker 2: as we do that conversation, that we can communicate with
[12:15] Speaker 2: anybody in the world. And I have in my cell
[12:18] Speaker 2: phone the entire knowledge of the human race available to
[12:21] Speaker 2: me if I know the right question to Google. So
[12:26] Speaker 2: that sort of thing. I just am not convinced that
[12:31] Speaker 2: there was a lot of interaction between the aliens, if
[12:35] Speaker 2: they were here, and our ancestors. There are some very
[12:38] Speaker 2: intriguing sightings made But if you look at the words used,
[12:45] Speaker 2: the descriptions used, a flaming sword in the sky could
[12:49] Speaker 2: be a spacecraft, could be a comet, could be a meteor.
[12:53] Speaker 2: They didn't have the knowledge that we have to distinguish
[12:58] Speaker 2: among those various things. So we've got to look at
[13:00] Speaker 2: all that when we're talking about it. But there's some
[13:04] Speaker 2: interesting sightings that come out of the ancient world that
[13:06] Speaker 2: suggest there may have been some sort of observation at
[13:10] Speaker 2: the very least, but I don't think there was a
[13:12] Speaker 2: lot of contact. And if there was contact in the
[13:14] Speaker 2: ancient world, why isn't there contact in today's environment with
[13:18] Speaker 2: the various governments and the industry and that sort of thing?
[13:22] Speaker 1: Do you think most of the contact may have started
[13:26] Speaker 1: after the use of the atom bomb? You mentioned that
[13:30] Speaker 1: may have had an effect and caught the interest of visitors.
[13:34] Speaker 1: Do you think most of the contact and modern sightings
[13:37] Speaker 1: really came after that?
[13:40] Speaker 2: No, if you go back to World War II, we
[13:43] Speaker 2: had the Foo Fighters, of course, which were basically, mostly
[13:48] Speaker 2: they seemed to be glowing blobs of light, but some
[13:50] Speaker 2: of them seemed to be very structured and there's descriptions
[13:53] Speaker 2: of craft and that sort of thing. And there was
[13:55] Speaker 2: an investigation going on at the time. Keith Chester did
[13:58] Speaker 2: a wonderful book called Strange Company that deals with that
[14:01] Speaker 2: in depth. And what we learned from that is there
[14:04] Speaker 2: was a great emphasis specifically placed on finding out what
[14:08] Speaker 2: these were because they thought it might be a Nazi
[14:09] Speaker 2: or a Japanese secret weapon. And when the war ended,
[14:13] Speaker 2: the priority just disappeared because there was no urgency to
[14:16] Speaker 2: learn about it. We have the Foo Fighters, not the
[14:19] Speaker 2: Foo Fighters, but the ghost rockets from 1946, which were
[14:24] Speaker 2: seen mostly in Scandinavia and Northern Europe. And some of
[14:27] Speaker 2: them were seen South and some American people were involved
[14:30] Speaker 2: in the investigation. Then we get to 1947 with, um, uh,
[14:35] Speaker 2: Kenneth Arnold, and then later the Roswell case, but I
[14:37] Speaker 2: don't think it was driven by our, uh, testing of
[14:41] Speaker 2: the atomic bombs. I think that there may have been
[14:45] Speaker 2: a surveillance going on before that. And we can, we
[14:48] Speaker 2: can point to, uh, areas of, of around the world where, uh,
[14:54] Speaker 2: there were some of these sightings after, after the beginning
[14:56] Speaker 2: of the, uh, 20th century. So I, I think that,
[15:00] Speaker 2: that it may have, uh, if they were able to
[15:04] Speaker 2: observe it and realize we were testing atomic bombs. But
[15:06] Speaker 2: then you got to look at how long would it
[15:09] Speaker 2: take them to get here and discover it. I mean,
[15:10] Speaker 2: the light, if you could separate the light of an
[15:13] Speaker 2: atomic explosion from the brightness of the sun or of
[15:17] Speaker 2: the earth, that light is traveling only at the speed
[15:20] Speaker 2: of light. So it would take four years for that
[15:23] Speaker 2: light to get to the nearest planet. And then they
[15:25] Speaker 2: would have to come back and the timeframe simply does
[15:28] Speaker 2: not work out.
[15:29] Speaker 1: It's probably extremely difficult to understand what kind of technology
[15:36] Speaker 1: an off-planet being would be using for space travel. But
[15:40] Speaker 1: some have recently speculated wormholes would be a much more
[15:45] Speaker 1: efficient way than any kind of light-speed travel. Do you
[15:50] Speaker 1: have any thoughts about that?
[15:51] Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I've thought about that for a
[15:55] Speaker 2: long time. And of course, science fiction is filled with
[15:57] Speaker 2: examples of various ways to defeat the speed of light.
[16:02] Speaker 2: Star Trek's warp drive, for example, wormholes is a good example.
[16:05] Speaker 2: I think theoretically physicists agree that wormholes could exist, but
[16:09] Speaker 2: can you control them? Can you aim that where you
[16:12] Speaker 2: want to go? Are you just sort of jumping into
[16:14] Speaker 2: the wormhole and seeing where you come out at the
[16:16] Speaker 2: other end? And then how do you get back? Does
[16:18] Speaker 2: a wormhole work two ways? So theoretically there's problems. There's
[16:22] Speaker 2: also the discussion that if you put a, dot at
[16:26] Speaker 2: the top of a piece of paper and a dot
[16:27] Speaker 2: at the bottom. Well, you've got 11 inches between those
[16:30] Speaker 2: two dots. If you fold the paper in half, they
[16:32] Speaker 2: virtually touch. And that may be a way of warping
[16:36] Speaker 2: space so that you can get vast distance in a
[16:39] Speaker 2: very short period of time. All of this is theoretically postulated.
[16:43] Speaker 2: We have no way to do it right now. Our
[16:46] Speaker 2: way of traveling through space, as I said, is chemical rockets.
[16:49] Speaker 2: And that's just not going to work. It works well
[16:51] Speaker 2: in the solar system, even though you have troubles with
[16:55] Speaker 2: fuel and that sort of thing. But to move outside
[16:58] Speaker 2: of the solar system, you need to develop a propulsion
[17:00] Speaker 2: system that's much more effective than a conventional chemical rocket.
[17:05] Speaker 1: Do you think our military-industrial complex has reverse-engineered craft already?
[17:11] Speaker 1: And some would even go as far to say that
[17:14] Speaker 1: they may have some kind of working relationship with extraterrestrials
[17:18] Speaker 1: in some way.
[17:20] Speaker 2: Well, again, that's speculation. I've often thought if we have
[17:25] Speaker 2: recovered spacecraft that the technology may be so far advanced
[17:29] Speaker 2: we simply don't understand it. We can't decode it. The
[17:33] Speaker 2: best example I used to use was if you had
[17:35] Speaker 2: a VCR, a monitor, and a power pack, and you
[17:39] Speaker 2: take that equipment back to Merlin the Magician, you show
[17:42] Speaker 2: him the black ribbon of the videotape, and you tell him, well,
[17:46] Speaker 2: if you know the secrets, you can get pictures and
[17:49] Speaker 2: sound off this tape. But to do that, he has
[17:52] Speaker 2: to know two things that are invisible, electricity and magnetism.
[17:57] Speaker 2: And so I'm thinking that the technology that may have
[18:00] Speaker 2: been recovered at the Roswell case was so far superior
[18:03] Speaker 2: to what we have. We haven't figured it out yet.
[18:05] Speaker 2: There may be clues about what they've done and how
[18:09] Speaker 2: they're doing it. And there may be clues that will
[18:11] Speaker 2: lead us to that. But the other thing I also
[18:13] Speaker 2: think about, if you tell me something is impossible long enough,
[18:16] Speaker 2: I'm not going to try to defeat that impossibility. But
[18:20] Speaker 2: if I know it's been defeated, I may not know
[18:24] Speaker 2: how it was defeated, but I know it can be defeated.
[18:26] Speaker 2: It's going to stimulate my research into ways to defeat
[18:30] Speaker 2: those sorts of problems. So we can look at that.
[18:32] Speaker 2: The recovery of the spacecraft may not have produced reversed
[18:36] Speaker 2: engineered propulsion system, for example, but it tells us that
[18:40] Speaker 2: kind of thing is possible. And so we look at
[18:43] Speaker 2: it in a completely different light.
[18:46] Speaker 1: Speaking of craft, let's discuss some of the incidents you
[18:50] Speaker 1: write about in the book. I hope I'm pronouncing this right,
[18:53] Speaker 1: the Varginha alien craft landing.
[18:58] Speaker 2: I don't know if you're pronouncing it right. I always
[19:00] Speaker 2: try to stay away from it, but I'm not sure
[19:01] Speaker 2: how to pronounce it either. But this was a sighting
[19:05] Speaker 2: that took place in Brazil in the 1990s. And the
[19:09] Speaker 2: problem I had when I first heard about it, it
[19:11] Speaker 2: was always reduced to three teenage girls or what two
[19:15] Speaker 2: teenage girls and a girl who was 20, 21 years old,
[19:18] Speaker 2: seeing what they called a demon, uh, sort of a
[19:22] Speaker 2: malformed creature with like bumps on its head that resembled
[19:26] Speaker 2: horns and a, and a red face. And I was
[19:28] Speaker 2: just never interested in it because that just seemed to
[19:30] Speaker 2: be something outside the realm of, of UFOs. But then, um,
[19:35] Speaker 2: somebody challenged me to take a look at it. I
[19:37] Speaker 2: began to look at it a little bit deeper and
[19:39] Speaker 2: discovered that, yeah, there was a, stories of a crashed
[19:42] Speaker 2: object in that area in Brazil back at that time
[19:46] Speaker 2: in the days before they saw the creature. And there
[19:48] Speaker 2: were a number of witnesses that talked about it and
[19:50] Speaker 2: things were recovered. And they had these beings running around
[19:55] Speaker 2: that area of Brazil, which were captured by the Brazilian military.
[19:59] Speaker 2: And there's evidence from credentialed scientists trying to study these
[20:06] Speaker 2: sorts of things. One of the police officers who captured
[20:10] Speaker 2: one of these things actually touched it with his bare hands.
[20:12] Speaker 2: Everybody else had been using gloves and whatnot. And he
[20:14] Speaker 2: died like two or three weeks later. And they didn't
[20:18] Speaker 2: know why, but they got rid of the body really,
[20:20] Speaker 2: really quick to, I guess, prevent further contamination. But it's
[20:24] Speaker 2: a case that's very interesting. So it's not just those
[20:27] Speaker 2: three girls telling this story. It's a number of other people.
[20:31] Speaker 2: One guy was talking about he was driving home and
[20:34] Speaker 2: he saw the UFO police. which he thought crashed and
[20:37] Speaker 2: drove toward the area where it crashed. And he was
[20:39] Speaker 2: stopped by the military and turned back. He went to
[20:43] Speaker 2: a local diner or cafe or cantina, I suppose, in Brazil.
[20:50] Speaker 2: And some guy approached him and told him, you know,
[20:53] Speaker 2: you just forget about it. It has nothing to do
[20:55] Speaker 2: with what you want to know. So there's some very
[20:57] Speaker 2: good evidence coming out of that. So I could go
[20:59] Speaker 2: into more detail in that and talk to some of
[21:01] Speaker 2: the people involved. and gathered some of the information that
[21:05] Speaker 2: was available on that. So it takes us in a
[21:07] Speaker 2: direction other than just three girls seeing this thing and
[21:11] Speaker 2: scaring them. There are military personnel, police officers, law enforcement
[21:15] Speaker 2: officers who are involved in that as well. And obvious
[21:20] Speaker 2: lies by the Brazilian government, not unlike what we had
[21:23] Speaker 2: here in the United States. And then we had other
[21:25] Speaker 2: high-ranking officers come forward and talk about, well, I was
[21:28] Speaker 2: involved in that, and there is no real good explanation
[21:31] Speaker 2: for it. But all the details and the sources used
[21:34] Speaker 2: to prepare that report, of course, are listed in the book,
[21:37] Speaker 2: and you get a much better idea of what that
[21:38] Speaker 2: was about. But it was a very interesting case, and
[21:40] Speaker 2: I think it's more important than I originally thought it was.
[21:45] Speaker 1: That is fascinating. So after the reports of the police
[21:50] Speaker 1: officers possibly handling one of these things, was there any
[21:55] Speaker 1: other information about what happened with the case?
[22:00] Speaker 2: There's information that came out of them. They captured a
[22:05] Speaker 2: couple of the beings, and there was a doctor who
[22:08] Speaker 2: was involved with taking care of it and restricted access
[22:11] Speaker 2: to the room where it was being held and finding
[22:13] Speaker 2: foods that it would want to eat. Because, again, they
[22:16] Speaker 2: were afraid of the contamination. So, yeah, there's a great
[22:19] Speaker 2: deal of additional information, not just the initial reports, but
[22:23] Speaker 2: there's a great deal of information and follow-up. And then you,
[22:25] Speaker 2: of course, have the Brazilian government making the claims that
[22:29] Speaker 2: it didn't happen. And then you have other officials from
[22:32] Speaker 2: the government and high-ranking military officers. Well, yeah, this is
[22:35] Speaker 2: what happened. And some of the stuff that they put out,
[22:37] Speaker 2: not unlike with the Roswell case, well, it's a weather balloon. Oh, no,
[22:40] Speaker 2: it's not a weather balloon. It's really a weather balloon
[22:44] Speaker 2: type information. They had the same sort of thing. Well,
[22:48] Speaker 2: the military presence was there because we were doing an
[22:50] Speaker 2: upgrade of the military vehicles at this facility. close to
[22:54] Speaker 2: where all this took place. That was why there was
[22:56] Speaker 2: additional military activity in the area. So you get the
[22:58] Speaker 2: same sort of cover stories being put out to kind
[23:02] Speaker 2: of divert attention from what the reality may well have been.
[23:06] Speaker 1: One of the new terms being thrown around is non-human biologics.
[23:10] Speaker 1: And at very high levels, it's claimed that we are
[23:13] Speaker 1: in possession of some of these beings. Do you think
[23:16] Speaker 1: this happens often, crash retrievals, where we also retrieve the
[23:21] Speaker 1: beings that are piloting these?
[23:23] Speaker 2: I will say first off, I don't think there's as
[23:26] Speaker 2: many crash retrievals as have been alleged. I did a
[23:29] Speaker 2: book called Crash When UFOs Fall from the Sky. It's,
[23:32] Speaker 2: I think, 10 years old now. Somebody counted the number
[23:35] Speaker 2: of cases in there. I listed 118 different crash retrievals.
[23:40] Speaker 2: The vast majority of them are single witness, misidentifications, outright hoaxes.
[23:48] Speaker 2: And in that book, I had a story of a
[23:52] Speaker 2: crash from Jefferson, Iowa, back in the 1897, during the
[23:57] Speaker 2: 1897 airship. And the editor of the newspaper sent me
[24:00] Speaker 2: an email asking me what I knew about it. And
[24:03] Speaker 2: I said, well, everything I knew was in the book.
[24:05] Speaker 2: And he went back to his archives and we discovered
[24:09] Speaker 2: a long story about it, which, of course, I published
[24:12] Speaker 2: on the blog as well as in the book. And
[24:14] Speaker 2: it talks about this particular case, which clearly was a
[24:18] Speaker 2: hoax when you read the whole story, but it's all
[24:20] Speaker 2: laid out there. So I think that you can reduce
[24:23] Speaker 2: the number of crashes to, I always say a handful,
[24:26] Speaker 2: and sometimes I say, and you can count that on
[24:29] Speaker 2: one finger. Roswell, we pretty well established something unusual happened there.
[24:33] Speaker 2: Everybody agrees something fell at Roswell. The question is, was
[24:36] Speaker 2: it a Project Mogul balloon or was it something else? Well,
[24:40] Speaker 2: the documentation proves it wasn't a Mogul balloon. And what
[24:43] Speaker 2: you hear about the Project Mogul is something basically overinflated
[24:47] Speaker 2: and not as important as it's made out to be,
[24:49] Speaker 2: where they say, well, you know, Mogul was highly classified.
[24:52] Speaker 2: The purpose was classified. The experiments being conducted in New
[24:55] Speaker 2: Mexico with what we call the Mogul arrays was not classified.
[25:02] Speaker 2: And in fact, July 10th of 1947, two days after
[25:06] Speaker 2: the story breaks, there was an article in the Alamogordo
[25:11] Speaker 2: News where they're They've got pictures of the arrays laid
[25:14] Speaker 2: out and the people involved in it and talking about it.
[25:17] Speaker 2: This may explain some of the UFO sightings. And so
[25:22] Speaker 2: we've got all that information. So if it's highly classified,
[25:24] Speaker 2: why are you publishing it in the newspapers? You know,
[25:27] Speaker 2: like I said, and the culprit in this was flight
[25:30] Speaker 2: number four. Documentation says it was canceled. It never flew.
[25:35] Speaker 2: Charles Moore, who was an engineer on the project, told
[25:38] Speaker 2: me that flight number four had been configured like flight
[25:40] Speaker 2: number five. We have the schematics of flight number five,
[25:44] Speaker 2: how the array was configured. There are no ray-win targets
[25:47] Speaker 2: on it. And if that's the case, then where did
[25:49] Speaker 2: the ray-win target that was shown in Roger Ramey's office,
[25:52] Speaker 2: he being the commander of the 8th Air Force at
[25:54] Speaker 2: the time, the pictures that we have of Jess Marcel
[25:57] Speaker 2: and he and Thomas DuBose with the debris, where did
[26:02] Speaker 2: that ray-win target come from if there was none on
[26:06] Speaker 2: the array that had been launched in Alamogordo? not to
[26:10] Speaker 2: mention other problems. I mean, it's just a whole list
[26:13] Speaker 2: of things, problem with that explanation. And again, I did
[26:17] Speaker 2: a book called Roswell in the 21st Century, and there's
[26:19] Speaker 2: a long appendix laying all the facts and figures out
[26:23] Speaker 2: complete with all the sources and who I talked to
[26:25] Speaker 2: and what I learned about it. I think Mogul is
[26:27] Speaker 2: pretty well debunked, except the skeptics accept all of this stuff.
[26:33] Speaker 2: If I say I saw a flying saucer, They don't
[26:37] Speaker 2: believe me because they know there are no such things
[26:39] Speaker 2: as flying saucers. If I say the people say, well,
[26:44] Speaker 2: the Roswell was caused by a Project Mogul balloon. They
[26:47] Speaker 2: all say, yeah, that's what it was. Project Mogul explains
[26:50] Speaker 2: it all when it explains nothing. We have no we
[26:54] Speaker 2: have no terrestrial explanation at the time for what fell
[26:56] Speaker 2: at Roswell. And I say that doesn't mean that some
[26:59] Speaker 2: won't be found in the future. But when the Air
[27:02] Speaker 2: Force investigated that aspect of it, they found the same thing.
[27:06] Speaker 2: things that Don Schmidt, Tom Carey, and I had found
[27:09] Speaker 2: that all the possible explanations for the debris had been eliminated.
[27:13] Speaker 2: And then they trotted out Project Mogul. Well, we believe
[27:15] Speaker 2: the documentation eliminates that. So where do you go from there?
[27:19] Speaker 2: What do we have? And I was thinking that in
[27:22] Speaker 2: the 1990s, mid-1990s, when the Air Force investigated, if there
[27:26] Speaker 2: had been an alternative explanation, they would have trotted it
[27:31] Speaker 2: out at the time. And the best they had was
[27:33] Speaker 2: Project Mogul. And that actually came from people in the
[27:35] Speaker 2: UFO community. I knew about it. I think Robert Todd
[27:42] Speaker 2: helped them with that part of their investigation, Todd being
[27:44] Speaker 2: a great skeptic. But we knew about that long before
[27:49] Speaker 2: the Air Force trotted it out. They learned about it
[27:51] Speaker 2: from people inside the UFO community, whether they're on the
[27:54] Speaker 2: skeptical side of the fence or the believer side of
[27:57] Speaker 2: the fence.
[27:58] Speaker 1: Do you think there's enough evidence to support the possibility
[28:01] Speaker 1: that there was a non-human body retrieved from Roswell?
[28:07] Speaker 2: We have testimony from people who, who said they saw it.
[28:12] Speaker 2: Now I have to preface this by saying there was
[28:14] Speaker 2: an awful lot of people who came out and talked
[28:15] Speaker 2: about seeing the bodies who we were able to expose
[28:18] Speaker 2: as being less than credible. But there are others that
[28:21] Speaker 2: we were, they were who they were and they were
[28:24] Speaker 2: there where they were supposed to be. I think, you know,
[28:27] Speaker 2: Melvin Brown, for example, was a sergeant. And when they
[28:30] Speaker 2: had to get security for the impact site, the two
[28:34] Speaker 2: sites where the object came down, they swept through the base,
[28:40] Speaker 2: picking up everybody they can and put them on guard duty.
[28:43] Speaker 2: If you've had basic training in the Army, you know
[28:46] Speaker 2: one of the things you learn in the basic training
[28:49] Speaker 2: is how to perform guard duty. So every soldier you'll see,
[28:53] Speaker 2: regardless of his MOS, his military occupational specialty, whether he's
[28:58] Speaker 2: a culinary specialist, which we would call a cook, or
[29:02] Speaker 2: he's an infantry rifleman, or he's a scientist that has
[29:07] Speaker 2: gone through basic training, learns how to do guard duty.
[29:10] Speaker 2: So the fact that they would be pulling people from
[29:12] Speaker 2: wherever they could get them and send them out on
[29:14] Speaker 2: guard duty is not that unusual given the circumstance. So
[29:18] Speaker 2: Melvin Brown talked about that and he talked about the
[29:21] Speaker 2: bodies to his wife and his daughters. Before Jesse Marcel
[29:25] Speaker 2: mentioned the thing, to Stan Friedman and Len Stringfield. There
[29:30] Speaker 2: are other people, Walter Hott, who was the public affairs
[29:35] Speaker 2: officer at Roswell in 1947. And from what Walter Hott said,
[29:39] Speaker 2: he also operated kind of Colonel Blanchard's aid periodically. A
[29:42] Speaker 2: colonel is not authorized in aid. General officers are authorized
[29:46] Speaker 2: in aid. But that doesn't mean that other officers weren't
[29:49] Speaker 2: kind of Shanghai'd into that position. But he said repeatedly
[29:54] Speaker 2: for literally decades, well, I just wrote the press release.
[29:57] Speaker 2: I don't remember if... Colonel Blanchard called me and dictated
[30:01] Speaker 2: to me or he just sent me the information. And
[30:04] Speaker 2: we wrote the press release in my office, but I
[30:06] Speaker 2: took it around to the four media outlets in Roswell
[30:08] Speaker 2: at the time. And that's all I did. They said
[30:10] Speaker 2: that for years and years and years. I interviewed a
[30:13] Speaker 2: guy in the mid 1990s, Richard Harris. And he told
[30:17] Speaker 2: me that he had been in the area where the
[30:21] Speaker 2: bodies were being stored before they were transported out. And
[30:25] Speaker 2: Walter Hott said, you want to see the bodies there
[30:26] Speaker 2: on the other side of the door? And Harris said, well,
[30:29] Speaker 2: he put his hand on the handle and he didn't
[30:30] Speaker 2: want to open the door. Well, I kind of disbelieved
[30:34] Speaker 2: Harris's story because it was in direct conflict with what
[30:37] Speaker 2: Walter Haught had said. Walter Haught was still saying, I
[30:40] Speaker 2: only wrote the press release. Then around 2000, Walter Haught
[30:44] Speaker 2: was getting ill and he wanted to leave some kind
[30:47] Speaker 2: of legacy about this. And he told the story that
[30:50] Speaker 2: he hadn't seen the craft and he had seen the
[30:52] Speaker 2: bodies and he He, with the assistance of Don Schmidt
[30:56] Speaker 2: and not Don Schmidt, but Walter Hott's daughter, Julie Schuessler,
[31:01] Speaker 2: put together an affidavit where he talked about what he
[31:04] Speaker 2: had seen, but the craft looked like and what the
[31:06] Speaker 2: bodies looked like. So here's testimony from a guy who
[31:10] Speaker 2: said that he saw the bodies. I talked to Johnny McBoyle,
[31:14] Speaker 2: who was a reporter, and he was the one that
[31:15] Speaker 2: was talking to Lydia Schleppi up in. The radio station
[31:20] Speaker 2: in Albuquerque, the station in Albuquerque owned one of the
[31:25] Speaker 2: Roswell radio stations. And Johnny McBoy was working for them.
[31:29] Speaker 2: And he saw the craft and he saw the bodies.
[31:31] Speaker 2: And he was talking to Schleppi about this. And she
[31:33] Speaker 2: was trying to put it out over the teletype and
[31:37] Speaker 2: got interrupted and said, you know, cease transmission. You know,
[31:41] Speaker 2: do not transmit this story. Now, they'll say, well, how
[31:44] Speaker 2: did they do that if she was doing this? If
[31:46] Speaker 2: you read her affidavit, she said if there was an
[31:49] Speaker 2: incoming message, a bell would ring and I would flip
[31:51] Speaker 2: a switch. So as she's trying to put the story
[31:54] Speaker 2: on the teletype, the bell rings, she flips the switch
[31:57] Speaker 2: to see what the incoming message is and tell him
[31:59] Speaker 2: to stop it. And Johnny McBoyle talked about that. The
[32:07] Speaker 2: witnesses are just running rampant through my brain. Barbara Duggar,
[32:13] Speaker 2: who was the granddaughter of the sheriff, Sheriff Wilcox, talked
[32:17] Speaker 2: about how Wilcox had gone out and seen the bodies
[32:22] Speaker 2: and the little men. Inez Wilcox, the sheriff's wife, wrote
[32:25] Speaker 2: an article called Four Years in the County Jail. The
[32:28] Speaker 2: gag was in 1947, the sheriff's family lived over the
[32:32] Speaker 2: jail and the wife was considered the matron for the jail.
[32:35] Speaker 2: So she was writing about her experiences for four years
[32:39] Speaker 2: in the county jail. And there was a segment in
[32:40] Speaker 2: the story where she talked about the sheriff going out
[32:42] Speaker 2: there and seeing the little bodies and that the military
[32:45] Speaker 2: had come and warned him him and her not to
[32:49] Speaker 2: talk about it, you know, under dire consequences. And this
[32:52] Speaker 2: was passed down to Barbara Duggar. Frankie Rowe was the
[32:55] Speaker 2: daughter of a firefighter. And the story was, you know,
[32:58] Speaker 2: the Roswell Fire Department had gone out there. I looked
[33:01] Speaker 2: through the fire records and couldn't find anything to suggest
[33:04] Speaker 2: that they'd gone out there. And Carl Flock and his
[33:08] Speaker 2: anti-Roswell book, Roswell Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe,
[33:12] Speaker 2: interviewed one of the firefighters there. The firefighter said, no,
[33:16] Speaker 2: we didn't go out there. We didn't make the run
[33:17] Speaker 2: out there. A colonel came from the base. It's always
[33:20] Speaker 2: a colonel, never a captain, never a major, never a lieutenant,
[33:23] Speaker 2: always a colonel came out from the base and told
[33:25] Speaker 2: them they didn't need to go out there because they
[33:27] Speaker 2: were handling it from the base. And Carl published that
[33:32] Speaker 2: in his book, and that's where he stopped. Well, I
[33:34] Speaker 2: talked to the firefighter as well. I asked an additional question.
[33:37] Speaker 2: I said, well, did you know Dan Dwyer, Frankie Rowe's father,
[33:40] Speaker 2: the firefighter? He says, oh, yeah, Dan went out there. What? What? Yeah,
[33:44] Speaker 2: he didn't go out as a firefighter. He went out
[33:47] Speaker 2: in his private car to see what was going on.
[33:49] Speaker 2: And he saw the craft. He saw the bodies and
[33:52] Speaker 2: told his daughter, Frankie, told the family about it. And
[33:54] Speaker 2: the family was also visited by military officials and suggested
[33:58] Speaker 2: it would be better if they didn't talk about it.
[34:00] Speaker 2: And Frankie Rowe was very frightened when we began. She
[34:04] Speaker 2: did approach me. I believe Don and I had made
[34:09] Speaker 2: a presentation at the New Mexico Military Institute, Roswell, and
[34:13] Speaker 2: she approached me afterwards and said she knew something about it.
[34:16] Speaker 2: Very reluctant to talk about it and gave us bits
[34:19] Speaker 2: and pieces of the information until we finally got the
[34:21] Speaker 2: full story. But the point simply is there are good
[34:25] Speaker 2: witnesses who talked about the craft, who talked about the bodies.
[34:29] Speaker 2: General Lexon, he was the base commander at Wright-Patterson. A
[34:33] Speaker 2: base commander isn't in charge of everything on the base.
[34:37] Speaker 2: He's more like the mayor of a city. And in fact,
[34:40] Speaker 2: in the Army, what he was doing is actually called
[34:42] Speaker 2: the mayor's cell, where they take care of the facilities
[34:45] Speaker 2: and that sort of thing that they need to do.
[34:47] Speaker 2: And he talked about how one of the bodies had
[34:51] Speaker 2: been sent to Denver, Lowry Air Force Base. It was U.S.
[34:55] Speaker 2: Army Air Forces. I don't know what it was called.
[34:57] Speaker 2: I don't remember what it was called in 1947. One
[35:00] Speaker 2: of the bodies went there because the Army had a
[35:01] Speaker 2: mortuary service there, and they're looking for a way to
[35:03] Speaker 2: preserve the bodies. Wow. And we also heard that they
[35:07] Speaker 2: may have gone to MacDill, I think had an aeromedical facility.
[35:12] Speaker 2: And now I always postulate this, and this is my speculation,
[35:15] Speaker 2: pure and simple. I think that all that material is
[35:18] Speaker 2: probably an island in the Pacific, one of the islands
[35:20] Speaker 2: that the Navy controls, because you can't sneak up on
[35:23] Speaker 2: an island. You know, if you're a military installation, you
[35:27] Speaker 2: can penetrate the perimeters, especially if it's a large installation.
[35:31] Speaker 2: Like Rad Patterson, there's all kinds of ways of getting
[35:34] Speaker 2: onto that base that that allows you to go on that,
[35:38] Speaker 2: which reminds me, Barry Goldwater, who was a United States
[35:42] Speaker 2: Senator and a major general in the Air Force Reserve,
[35:45] Speaker 2: wanted to see what was called the Blue Room, where
[35:47] Speaker 2: this material was supposedly kept. And he asked General LeMay
[35:51] Speaker 2: if he could see it. LeMay said, not only no,
[35:53] Speaker 2: but hell no. And if you ever ask me again,
[35:54] Speaker 2: I'll have you court-martialed. Now, you say, well, that's a
[35:57] Speaker 2: great story. I have a copy of a letter that
[36:00] Speaker 2: was sent to Kent Jeffries in the mid-1990s where he
[36:03] Speaker 2: had asked Goldwater about that. And Goldwater repeats the story
[36:05] Speaker 2: in the letter and signs it. So we have a
[36:07] Speaker 2: copy of the documentation, but Goldwater told that story to
[36:10] Speaker 2: a lot of other people as well. So we know
[36:12] Speaker 2: that's inaccurate. So there was stuff stored at Wright-Patterson Air
[36:16] Speaker 2: Force based on the bodies. Went there at one point.
[36:19] Speaker 2: I don't know if they were still there, if they've
[36:21] Speaker 2: been moved. We just haven't traced them any further out
[36:23] Speaker 2: there other than the one that went to Denver.
[36:27] Speaker 1: That's a lot of compelling witnesses. While we're still in
[36:30] Speaker 1: the realms of UFO crashes, tell us a little bit
[36:34] Speaker 1: about the Kingman UFO crash.
[36:37] Speaker 2: This is a long, involved story, and I used it
[36:41] Speaker 2: in the book because it kind of gives you an
[36:43] Speaker 2: idea of the investigative hoops I had to jump through.
[36:50] Speaker 2: But the original story was a fellow named Arthur Stanzel,
[36:56] Speaker 2: He was an engineer at Air Force Base in Nevada.
[37:02] Speaker 2: And Stancil told this story to two teenage boys. One
[37:05] Speaker 2: of them was writing a book for juveniles about UFOs.
[37:09] Speaker 2: I have nothing against teenagers doing the research because when
[37:13] Speaker 2: I was in Vietnam, I was 19 years old. I
[37:15] Speaker 2: was an aircraft commander and sometimes flight lead. So they
[37:18] Speaker 2: do sometimes give... Positions of great importance to teenagers. So
[37:23] Speaker 2: I have no problem with being a teenager. But Stossel
[37:25] Speaker 2: was telling them a story about how he had received
[37:29] Speaker 2: information to travel to the Kingman area. He said originally
[37:34] Speaker 2: that they flew him to Chicago, then into Phoenix and
[37:36] Speaker 2: put him on a bus and sent him to Kingman,
[37:38] Speaker 2: which makes no sense to me whatsoever. He later changed
[37:42] Speaker 2: it somewhat differently. But they were on a bus with
[37:45] Speaker 2: the windows blacked out and they were told not to
[37:47] Speaker 2: talk to one another. His job was to estimate the
[37:50] Speaker 2: speed and the weight of the craft based on the
[37:55] Speaker 2: impact that was left behind, which he was able to
[37:58] Speaker 2: do by taking compression of the soil and determining what
[38:03] Speaker 2: speed it would have taken for this object to create
[38:07] Speaker 2: the kind of crater, if you will, that was left behind.
[38:10] Speaker 2: The craft was intact, by the way. And then he
[38:13] Speaker 2: was talking about how he, as he left, they walked
[38:16] Speaker 2: him by a tent and inside the tent he saw
[38:18] Speaker 2: body of an alien creature and then as they were
[38:24] Speaker 2: getting off the bus there was an officer there, they'd
[38:28] Speaker 2: been told not to talk to one another, don't share
[38:30] Speaker 2: any information but there's an officer with a clipboard calling
[38:33] Speaker 2: off their names and sending to their specific assignments which
[38:39] Speaker 2: is an extreme breach of military security because now you've
[38:44] Speaker 2: just given the names to everybody who's listening But his
[38:47] Speaker 2: story changed over the years. When Ray Fowler got involved,
[38:51] Speaker 2: Ray Fowler did a wonderful job at the investigation. Fowler
[38:54] Speaker 2: did an article for Official UFO Magazine. And for those
[38:57] Speaker 2: of you who are interested and like to read Ray
[38:59] Speaker 2: Fowler's article, I hesitated, but Bernie O'Connor was the editor
[39:07] Speaker 2: of the Official UFO Magazine that published that story back
[39:11] Speaker 2: in the 1970s. He did a book, which you can
[39:14] Speaker 2: buy on Amazon, And it's a compendium of a lot
[39:19] Speaker 2: of the articles that appeared in the magazine. And that's
[39:22] Speaker 2: one of them. So you can find that, find the
[39:24] Speaker 2: article as it appeared in the magazine in this book
[39:26] Speaker 2: by Bernie O'Connor. uh it's just about official ufo so
[39:32] Speaker 2: um ray went out and talked to him and sansel
[39:37] Speaker 2: said well you know when he drank he tended to
[39:39] Speaker 2: embellish stories and he changed his story a little bit
[39:42] Speaker 2: from when he talked to the boys um Boy said, well, uh,
[39:47] Speaker 2: he'd only had one beer while they were there on
[39:49] Speaker 2: a Saturday, but Stansel said, well, he'd had four martinis
[39:52] Speaker 2: before the board, before the boys arrived. And so he
[39:57] Speaker 2: spun this wild tale, but I have a copy of, um,
[40:02] Speaker 2: Ray Fowler's a complete file on this. And what I
[40:05] Speaker 2: did originally, when I was talking about this Kingman crash,
[40:09] Speaker 2: I just use the information that Stansel had provided about
[40:12] Speaker 2: how he had gone out there and what he had seen. Um,
[40:16] Speaker 2: Don Schmidt came up with a witness named Judy Wolcott,
[40:20] Speaker 2: who talked about her husband having been deployed to Vietnam.
[40:24] Speaker 2: And he sent her a strange letter one day about
[40:28] Speaker 2: having been out there on the crash site. And then
[40:31] Speaker 2: a week later, he was killed in Vietnam. But she
[40:35] Speaker 2: didn't have the letter anymore. So that just kind of
[40:37] Speaker 2: shot that down. And about the day the book was published,
[40:40] Speaker 2: Crash was published, I got a call from Judy Wolcott's daughter,
[40:43] Speaker 2: who told me, you can't believe anything my mother says.
[40:46] Speaker 2: She embellishes everything. She lies about everything. And he said, well,
[40:52] Speaker 2: Wilcott did not get killed in Vietnam. It was supposed
[40:55] Speaker 2: to be her father, but the daughter told me, no,
[40:59] Speaker 2: my father was somebody else and he's still alive and kicking.
[41:03] Speaker 2: So that kind of ruined that corroboration. But there is
[41:07] Speaker 2: no other corroboration. And then looking at the file that
[41:11] Speaker 2: Ray Stanzel had put together, there's another segment at the end.
[41:15] Speaker 2: a long segment of the second part of the interview.
[41:18] Speaker 2: And I mean, I looked at the first part. I
[41:19] Speaker 2: think most people who write about this looked at the
[41:21] Speaker 2: first part. They didn't look at the second part. Stanzel
[41:23] Speaker 2: was talking about how he was manifesting himself through astral
[41:27] Speaker 2: projection on alien spacecraft up to a thousand light years away.
[41:31] Speaker 2: And he was part of a group that met on
[41:33] Speaker 2: Sunday nights and engaged in this paranormal activity, which I
[41:37] Speaker 2: think is very problematic and sort of hurts his credibility.
[41:45] Speaker 2: So we don't have any good witnesses. I know Preston Dennett,
[41:51] Speaker 2: when he did his book on UFOs over Arizona, I
[41:55] Speaker 2: think it was, he had a segment in that book
[41:57] Speaker 2: about Kingman. He talks about this letter that Richard Hall
[42:02] Speaker 2: had gotten in 1966 that talks about the crash. Well,
[42:06] Speaker 2: this is before Stansel published the article in Official UFO Magazine.
[42:11] Speaker 2: The information wasn't out there. But it turns out that
[42:15] Speaker 2: Dick Hall didn't get the letter in 1966. He got
[42:18] Speaker 2: it in 1977. The letter is dated 1966, but it
[42:21] Speaker 2: came from a fellow named Todd Zeckel, who is not
[42:25] Speaker 2: a credible source. And we've got him making up other
[42:28] Speaker 2: stuff as well that kind of takes that up. Jenny
[42:32] Speaker 2: Randles published it in her book as well. And I
[42:34] Speaker 2: contacted Jenny Randles and she said, well, she just didn't
[42:38] Speaker 2: really remember that much about it. She was not interested
[42:40] Speaker 2: in UFOs anymore. And I can kind of understand that
[42:42] Speaker 2: when you get to our advanced ages. Sometimes this sort
[42:46] Speaker 2: of thing becomes more of a nuisance than it is
[42:50] Speaker 2: an investigative activity. And I talked to Preston Dennett, actually
[42:55] Speaker 2: had an email discussion with Preston Dennett. And I had
[42:58] Speaker 2: thought in his book, I misread it, I think, that
[43:03] Speaker 2: he had talked to other firsthand witnesses. And he made
[43:05] Speaker 2: it clear he hadn't talked to any firsthand witnesses. He
[43:08] Speaker 2: talked to some other secondhand witnesses about that. but the
[43:11] Speaker 2: letter collapses under investigation. I was finally able to trace
[43:17] Speaker 2: it to its original source. All this, you know, this
[43:19] Speaker 2: is laid out in the book carefully so that you
[43:21] Speaker 2: can understand it easily if that's what you want to
[43:23] Speaker 2: look at. But Kingman, my impression of it based on
[43:26] Speaker 2: my investigation is it's a hoax. David Rudiak got interested
[43:31] Speaker 2: in this and David is a well-respected researcher and just, uh,
[43:37] Speaker 2: sometimes goes crazy in researching some of this stuff. And
[43:39] Speaker 2: he was going through the newspapers from 1950, 52, 53,
[43:41] Speaker 2: the Kingman crash taken in 53. And he provides some
[43:46] Speaker 2: very strange stories of things going on in that area
[43:49] Speaker 2: at the time. I think Preston Dennett talks about three
[43:52] Speaker 2: different crashes in the area at that time. So it's
[43:55] Speaker 2: getting out of hand. The one sort of intrigue me
[43:58] Speaker 2: that David had found was the sheriff had apparently arrested
[44:03] Speaker 2: two guys that were strange, took them to the jail
[44:08] Speaker 2: and locked them up in a cell. And when they
[44:10] Speaker 2: went back, the guys had disappeared. So it's kind of
[44:13] Speaker 2: a weird story. But again, that stuff is laid out
[44:17] Speaker 2: and the sources of the information is available so you
[44:22] Speaker 2: can trace it yourself and see what you think of it.
[44:25] Speaker 2: And that's what I tried to do in the book.
[44:26] Speaker 2: Even when I didn't accept the story as being true,
[44:30] Speaker 2: I tried to provide all the information, both pro and con,
[44:33] Speaker 2: and let the reader decide for him or herself, which
[44:36] Speaker 2: direction he or she wants to go in believing that tale. Well,
[44:41] Speaker 2: I think that tale is thoroughly debunked. Well, there's still
[44:43] Speaker 2: an element of interest in that to me. So you
[44:46] Speaker 2: can take it where you want to go. Like I said,
[44:50] Speaker 2: I think Kingman is probably a hoax that Arthur Stanzel,
[44:53] Speaker 2: for whatever reason, invented it. But Stanzel said that he,
[44:57] Speaker 2: when he drank, he tended to make stuff up. And
[45:01] Speaker 2: I mean, that's his own words to, And Ray Stanford
[45:05] Speaker 2: in his files got Stancil talking about that a couple
[45:08] Speaker 2: of times. You know, well, I tend to make stuff
[45:10] Speaker 2: up when I've been drinking. So he's got shot his
[45:12] Speaker 2: own credibility in the foot. Yeah.
[45:15] Speaker 1: Let's get to some extreme high strangeness. You write about
[45:19] Speaker 1: the possibility of extraterrestrial hybrids in the offspring that people
[45:26] Speaker 1: are often presented during their encounters. Tell us a little
[45:30] Speaker 1: bit about your thoughts and research into this.
[45:33] Speaker 2: Well, it is part of the abduction phenomenon. And there were,
[45:39] Speaker 2: at one point, three main researchers into the abduction phenomenon,
[45:44] Speaker 2: Bud Hopkins, John Mack, and David Jacobs. And John Mack
[45:47] Speaker 2: talked about how that he was surprised about the way
[45:52] Speaker 2: the experiencers, the abductees, aligned themselves with the researcher that
[45:57] Speaker 2: had a specific Point of view Hopkins talked about the
[46:02] Speaker 2: cold cackling scientific aliens Hopkins are I mean Jacobs talked
[46:07] Speaker 2: about the creation of the hybrids and Mac talked about
[46:11] Speaker 2: aliens with his Eastern philosophy When we were looking at
[46:17] Speaker 2: that and why by way I mean process these Bill
[46:19] Speaker 2: Cohn and I were looking into this we kind of
[46:21] Speaker 2: flipped it around and said maybe it's the influence of
[46:25] Speaker 2: of the specific researcher they got to, they find what
[46:28] Speaker 2: they're looking for as opposed to what the abductee had experienced.
[46:34] Speaker 2: But one case that strikes me as a possibility of
[46:42] Speaker 2: kind of the creation of a hybrid was the Antonio
[46:44] Speaker 2: Villas-Boas case from 1957. This was before abductions were really
[46:48] Speaker 2: a thing. We had some movies that dealt with that.
[46:51] Speaker 2: One of the worst would be Killers from Space where
[46:55] Speaker 2: Peter Graves is abducted by aliens with big glowing eyes,
[46:58] Speaker 2: but he talked about how he was, again, he's in Brazil,
[47:03] Speaker 2: I should point out. And the object landed near him.
[47:07] Speaker 2: They were, he was plowing the fields late at night
[47:10] Speaker 2: because in Brazil, it's really, really hot in the daytime
[47:14] Speaker 2: and his tractor was not air conditioned. And he was
[47:17] Speaker 2: taken aboard the craft, put in a room where he
[47:21] Speaker 2: met up with a, I was going to say a
[47:24] Speaker 2: comely alien female, somewhat pretty looking alien female, although her
[47:30] Speaker 2: jaw was, her chin was two pointed, I think he said,
[47:33] Speaker 2: and she had red hair, but he was seduced and
[47:39] Speaker 2: provided sperm samples in the, in the conventional sense.
[47:43] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[47:44] Speaker 2: If you're conducting an experiment and you want to do
[47:48] Speaker 2: that sort of a thing, then you'd want, uh, to
[47:52] Speaker 2: control the female partner, not the male partner. And here
[47:56] Speaker 2: on other abductions, they're talking about the women being pregnant
[48:00] Speaker 2: and sent back into our environment where they could catch
[48:02] Speaker 2: diseases and be killed in traffic accidents and all kinds
[48:05] Speaker 2: of things. You know, it seems more logical that you
[48:07] Speaker 2: would want to control the female. But that case is
[48:11] Speaker 2: very interesting. Vince Boas went on to become a lawyer
[48:15] Speaker 2: and I think was respected in the Brazilian area. He
[48:17] Speaker 2: passed away at a young age. like 58 or something
[48:20] Speaker 2: like that. And for me, that's a very young age.
[48:23] Speaker 2: But that was a very interesting case. But the problem
[48:26] Speaker 2: with that sort of thing is, do aliens have DNA?
[48:33] Speaker 2: Or are the building blocks of their life different than ours?
[48:37] Speaker 2: And there's nothing you can do. Yeah, we can look
[48:41] Speaker 2: at our history. And we can say, well, yeah, we,
[48:45] Speaker 2: some of us still possess, not me, of course, but
[48:47] Speaker 2: some of us still possess DNA from the Neanderthals. And
[48:52] Speaker 2: so there are some throwbacks like that. And we can
[48:55] Speaker 2: look at other examples. The mastodon or the woolly mammoth
[48:59] Speaker 2: went extinct about 13,000 years. Both of them did. But
[49:02] Speaker 2: you see some elephants that retain some of those traits
[49:05] Speaker 2: from that. And they're talking about using DNA recovered from
[49:09] Speaker 2: the frozen remains of those and trying to recreate these animals.
[49:13] Speaker 2: So it can be done, but that's earth-based and it's DNA.
[49:18] Speaker 2: It's not an alien society or an alien race that
[49:22] Speaker 2: developed on another planet that probably have a different building
[49:26] Speaker 2: block and the DNA wouldn't be relevant to that. Russ
[49:29] Speaker 2: Estes made a comment about that. Well, if they're interested
[49:32] Speaker 2: in our DNA, they don't have to kidnap people together.
[49:35] Speaker 2: They just kidnap the trash can behind a barbershop and
[49:39] Speaker 2: they'll have all the DNA they can use. There's some
[49:42] Speaker 2: logical problems with that. But when you're talking about abductions,
[49:48] Speaker 2: I was like Bill Cohn and Russ Estes. We did
[49:51] Speaker 2: a book called The Abduction Enigma where we kind of
[49:54] Speaker 2: explained away all of it. We didn't deal with Travis Walton.
[49:58] Speaker 2: We didn't deal with Pascagoula. I've, of course, later on
[50:01] Speaker 2: had a chance to talk to Calvin Parker, one of
[50:03] Speaker 2: the guys who abducted Pascagoula. I talked to Charlie Hickson
[50:08] Speaker 2: as well, but that was a number of years ago.
[50:10] Speaker 2: And listening to the story, Parker said something that was
[50:13] Speaker 2: very intriguing to me. He said, well, you know, the
[50:15] Speaker 2: next day there were witnesses that came forward, witnesses were
[50:17] Speaker 2: identified who had witnessed the abduction. I said, no, it's not.
[50:21] Speaker 2: They came forward months later, years later. He says, no, no,
[50:23] Speaker 2: it was the next day. And Philip Mandel and Irene
[50:28] Speaker 2: Scott was doing some investigation with Calvin Parker. And they
[50:32] Speaker 2: had a letter Written the next day, October 12th, 1970,
[50:36] Speaker 2: abduction takes place late in the evening on October 11th.
[50:39] Speaker 2: Next day, Hickson and Parker are taken to Keesler Air
[50:41] Speaker 2: Force Base. They want to check to see if there's
[50:44] Speaker 2: radiation residue of some kind. And that was the only
[50:48] Speaker 2: place that could do it. And Keesler agreed to do it.
[50:49] Speaker 2: But there's a letter written by senior officers at Keesler
[50:52] Speaker 2: Air Force Base the next day talking about four additional
[50:56] Speaker 2: witnesses to this abduction. Since that time, Philip Mantle and
[51:00] Speaker 2: Irene Scott have identified other people who didn't tell their
[51:05] Speaker 2: stories until years and years later, but it all kind
[51:09] Speaker 2: of matches up. So you look at the abduction phenomena.
[51:12] Speaker 2: A lot of it is single witness. A lot of
[51:14] Speaker 2: it is there's no corroborative evidence. And now you get
[51:18] Speaker 2: to Hicks and Parker and you've got additional witnesses. And
[51:22] Speaker 2: the way the law enforcement investigation went after Hicks and
[51:28] Speaker 2: Parker went to the sheriff's office, they're left in a room.
[51:31] Speaker 2: They didn't know there was a quarter running. And the
[51:33] Speaker 2: idea was if this is a hoax, they'll probably say
[51:35] Speaker 2: something to give it away as they discuss it because
[51:37] Speaker 2: they think we can't hear them. And of course, there
[51:40] Speaker 2: was no such indications like that at all. They did
[51:43] Speaker 2: take a polygraph examination in New Orleans. Philip Klass, when
[51:48] Speaker 2: he was debunking the story, spent the majority of his
[51:51] Speaker 2: time debunking the lie detector operator. Not the story itself,
[51:56] Speaker 2: but we can't trust what the lie detector operator said
[51:58] Speaker 2: because he hadn't completed all his work. He hadn't done
[52:01] Speaker 2: the last thing he was supposed to do for his
[52:03] Speaker 2: complete and total certification. He was supposed to submit test
[52:07] Speaker 2: results from a number of tests that he had made
[52:11] Speaker 2: to the institution where he took his training. And he
[52:15] Speaker 2: hadn't done that. So Field Class made a big deal
[52:17] Speaker 2: about that and how they could have gotten somebody else
[52:19] Speaker 2: closer to Pascagoula. But Pascagoula is not that far from
[52:22] Speaker 2: New Orleans. And it turned out one of the sheriff's
[52:25] Speaker 2: deputies or somebody there had a, relative who worked for
[52:29] Speaker 2: the detective agency in New Orleans where they could get
[52:31] Speaker 2: the light detector test done. So this is a case
[52:34] Speaker 2: of alien abduction that I think has the best chance
[52:38] Speaker 2: of being authentic simply because it's not a single witness.
[52:42] Speaker 2: It's two witnesses who were abducted, but then additional witnesses
[52:48] Speaker 2: talking the next day about it. And finally, additional witnesses
[52:51] Speaker 2: coming forward. It was a crane operator across the river
[52:54] Speaker 2: from him and saw saw the blue lights as they
[52:56] Speaker 2: came down. And there was a woman and her husband
[52:58] Speaker 2: across the river doing something that saw the lights as well.
[53:02] Speaker 2: So there's additional witnesses that makes it a much more
[53:04] Speaker 2: credible story. And with Barney and Betty Hill, you know,
[53:08] Speaker 2: there's two people. Benjamin Simon, who is a psychiatrist that
[53:15] Speaker 2: interviewed them in a professional sense, said that he believed
[53:19] Speaker 2: they were telling the truth as they knew it, which
[53:20] Speaker 2: doesn't mean they were abducted by alien creatures, but they
[53:23] Speaker 2: were telling the truth. which I think is a distinction
[53:27] Speaker 2: to make there. But you've got some very interesting stories
[53:30] Speaker 2: like that. But Hickson and Parker is the only one
[53:33] Speaker 2: I know of where you've got additional witnesses outside the
[53:37] Speaker 2: abduction scenario who witnessed the thing. And we're talking about
[53:41] Speaker 2: it the next day. And that is corroborated by the
[53:44] Speaker 2: Air Force documentation.
[53:47] Speaker 1: So do you think most abduction cases that have been
[53:51] Speaker 1: documented are falsified in some way?
[53:56] Speaker 2: Well, there's a couple of problems we're dealing with. A
[53:58] Speaker 2: lot of them are retrieved under a hypnotic regression. And
[54:02] Speaker 2: there's something called pleasing the operator. When I did the
[54:05] Speaker 2: Pat Rocha investigation in 1976 with James Harder, Harder told me, well,
[54:13] Speaker 2: you can't lie under hypnosis. I've since found that's really
[54:17] Speaker 2: not true. There's something called pleasing the operator. And the
[54:21] Speaker 2: subject oftentimes picks up cues from the operator and plugs
[54:24] Speaker 2: it in the story. In fact, with the Pat Roach story,
[54:28] Speaker 2: we would have a session of an hour or so,
[54:31] Speaker 2: and then we would take a break and maybe overnight.
[54:33] Speaker 2: And we went to an ice cream parlor one afternoon
[54:36] Speaker 2: after the morning session, and Harder's telling her about Betty Hill.
[54:41] Speaker 2: And Betty Hill having been subjected to a physical examination,
[54:45] Speaker 2: including gathering of genetic materials. In the very next session
[54:49] Speaker 2: with Pat Roach, Roach says under hypnosis, I don't remember
[54:54] Speaker 2: being examined, but I know I was. So even though
[54:59] Speaker 2: Harder was careful in his questioning during the session, but
[55:04] Speaker 2: not as careful as you should have been, he implanted
[55:06] Speaker 2: the ideas between the sessions. Had I not been there,
[55:09] Speaker 2: I wouldn't have known that. But you've got to be
[55:12] Speaker 2: very careful of that. I think most abductions have terrestrial explanations.
[55:18] Speaker 2: Pat Roach's abduction, I believe, was what's called sleep paralysis.
[55:24] Speaker 2: And I believe when I reported on that story in
[55:27] Speaker 2: UFO Report, it's the first time it was reported that
[55:30] Speaker 2: the aliens had come into the house. And now we,
[55:33] Speaker 2: of course, have the bedroom abductions and all of that
[55:35] Speaker 2: sort of thing. But I believe, and this is this
[55:38] Speaker 2: specific case, it doesn't necessarily generalize to everything else, but
[55:42] Speaker 2: I think sleep paralysis plays a part. There was a
[55:44] Speaker 2: book done called The Terrors That Come in the Night.
[55:48] Speaker 2: And they were talking, he was, Hufford was investigating what's
[55:52] Speaker 2: called the old hag story where people would wake up
[55:55] Speaker 2: and there'd be this entity in the room, this old hag.
[55:58] Speaker 2: And it turns out in episodes of sleep paralysis, the
[56:02] Speaker 2: victim of the sleep paralysis has an impression of some
[56:06] Speaker 2: kind of entity in the room with it until they
[56:08] Speaker 2: break the paralysis, which comes a couple of minutes later
[56:13] Speaker 2: and everything returns to normal. So you've got to look
[56:16] Speaker 2: at that. And I think sleep paralysis plays a role
[56:18] Speaker 2: in it. And talking to Kathleen Marden, who was Betty
[56:21] Speaker 2: Hill's niece, who of course is a big advocate of
[56:24] Speaker 2: the Barney and Betty Hill case, realized that sleep paralysis
[56:28] Speaker 2: is part of the solution. I think there's other terrestrial
[56:30] Speaker 2: explanations as well for it. I think there's a very
[56:34] Speaker 2: small number of abductions that we can look at and
[56:36] Speaker 2: think of them as credible alien visitation. The Fund for
[56:42] Speaker 2: UFO Research, or a coalition of UFO organizations like UFOs
[56:45] Speaker 2: and MUFON was involved in as well, and in the
[56:47] Speaker 2: late 1970s, commissioned a poll through the Roper Organization. And
[56:51] Speaker 2: the idea was there were five questions buried in the
[56:53] Speaker 2: poll that if you provided a specific answer to the question,
[56:57] Speaker 2: you selected the proper letter. That led to the expectation
[57:03] Speaker 2: that you had some kind of an abduction experience and
[57:07] Speaker 2: it should be followed up on. But when they went
[57:10] Speaker 2: to analyze the data, they got a response where it
[57:15] Speaker 2: was significantly less than 1% of the people answered all
[57:19] Speaker 2: five questions in that way. So they reduced the number. Well,
[57:23] Speaker 2: four out of five will do it. Well, then it
[57:25] Speaker 2: became a much larger number and they estimated that 3
[57:28] Speaker 2: million Americans had been abducted. I extrapolated from there. Well,
[57:34] Speaker 2: if it's 3 million Americans, we know they're not concentrating
[57:36] Speaker 2: just on the United States. What about the billions of
[57:39] Speaker 2: people all around the world? And where are the spacecraft parts?
[57:44] Speaker 2: You're going to need hundreds and hundreds of spacecraft. There's
[57:45] Speaker 2: no way to keep something that large secret. It's got
[57:48] Speaker 2: to be a very narrow number of things. I did
[57:53] Speaker 2: a book called The October Scenario. And the theory behind
[57:55] Speaker 2: it was based on research into the October of 1973
[57:58] Speaker 2: wave of sightings. Because you see a kind of building,
[58:02] Speaker 2: but you get to the middle of September of 1973
[58:04] Speaker 2: through the middle of November of 1973. A lot of
[58:07] Speaker 2: reports of the craft on the ground. A lot of
[58:09] Speaker 2: reports of the creatures outside the craft gathering samples of
[58:13] Speaker 2: the flora and the fauna. And you look at that
[58:15] Speaker 2: and you say, this strikes me as the professor taking
[58:19] Speaker 2: his graduate students on an archaeological dig to some foreign nation.
[58:22] Speaker 2: They gather all the information they possibly can. Or an
[58:26] Speaker 2: anthropologist going to study chimpanzees, for example. They gather all
[58:30] Speaker 2: the information they can. Then they return to their university
[58:33] Speaker 2: and begin to analyze that data. So they were gathering
[58:36] Speaker 2: the information. I'm waiting for them to come back on
[58:39] Speaker 2: their follow-up expeditions. But the theory was this was the
[58:43] Speaker 2: one time where we really had alien abduction because of
[58:47] Speaker 2: the other ancillary sightings. I don't really subscribe to that anymore.
[58:50] Speaker 2: I thought it was kind of an interesting theory at
[58:52] Speaker 2: the time, but I think other information has pretty well
[58:55] Speaker 2: rendered it inconclusive. You know, we kind of have to
[58:59] Speaker 2: take that. And that was before I was really involved
[59:01] Speaker 2: with the Roswell investigation too. And that kind of moves
[59:04] Speaker 2: us out of the 1973 scenario.
[59:07] Speaker 1: Last few minutes, let's talk a little bit about the
[59:11] Speaker 1: Oligosh abduction.
[59:14] Speaker 2: I'm bothered by that. This is four guys who were
[59:17] Speaker 2: on a camping trip in that area. And they were
[59:23] Speaker 2: out on their boat and had a UFO sighting. They
[59:27] Speaker 2: had left a fire burning on shore so they could
[59:30] Speaker 2: get back to their campsite, had a big fire burning,
[59:32] Speaker 2: a bonfire burning, and saw this UFO. And then as
[59:38] Speaker 2: they turn around to go back, well, the fire is
[59:40] Speaker 2: almost out. So they've been gone for literally hours. Each
[59:45] Speaker 2: of them tells the story of having been abducted and
[59:48] Speaker 2: taken on board the craft, but their descriptions don't really match.
[59:54] Speaker 2: Their drawings don't really match. Their stories don't really match.
[59:56] Speaker 2: And I'm very skeptical of that. There's another story about
[1:00:02] Speaker 2: an abduction in Devil's Den. And boy, the name of
[1:00:05] Speaker 2: the witness. Terry Lovelace? Yes. Thank you very much. Yes.
[1:00:09] Speaker 2: That story makes more sense to me, where he was abducted.
[1:00:14] Speaker 2: And what happened to him afterwards, where he was interrogated
[1:00:18] Speaker 2: by the OSI and his friend was transferred and he
[1:00:20] Speaker 2: had all these ancillary problems. his military career was kind
[1:00:25] Speaker 2: of sidetracked at that time. But yes, I talked to him.
[1:00:28] Speaker 2: I thought that was a much better abduction than Allagash.
[1:00:31] Speaker 2: But Allagash's Four Witnesses, they tell similar stories with some,
[1:00:36] Speaker 2: I think of them as significant variations, but that's just
[1:00:40] Speaker 2: my take on it. Some people might not find those
[1:00:44] Speaker 2: variations significant because, you know, if you watch a car
[1:00:47] Speaker 2: wreck or something like that and you interview the witnesses,
[1:00:50] Speaker 2: oftentimes you'll get different stories from different people. there was
[1:00:53] Speaker 2: a quick, quickly, there was a study done by a
[1:00:57] Speaker 2: college professor. And when the Challenger blew up in 1985,
[1:01:00] Speaker 2: he had his students in freshman class answer five basic questions.
[1:01:06] Speaker 2: Where were you when it happened? How did you learn
[1:01:08] Speaker 2: about it? Blah, blah, blah. And then when they got
[1:01:10] Speaker 2: up to be seniors, he gave them the same survey again. And,
[1:01:14] Speaker 2: but asked a sixth question, how accurate do you think
[1:01:17] Speaker 2: your memories are? And they also, well, you know, 100% accurate.
[1:01:21] Speaker 2: What he found is, 25% of them are extremely accurate.
[1:01:24] Speaker 2: 25% of them were extremely inaccurate. One girl said, well,
[1:01:29] Speaker 2: I was with my family at the time when I
[1:01:31] Speaker 2: heard about it. And her, her document from, from four
[1:01:34] Speaker 2: years earlier said, no, she was at college when it
[1:01:35] Speaker 2: happened and they, she didn't, she wasn't home when it happened.
[1:01:39] Speaker 2: So her memories were completely roasted. And there was, and
[1:01:43] Speaker 2: there was the 50% where some of the stuff was
[1:01:46] Speaker 2: inaccurate and some of the stuff was completely accurate. Point
[1:01:48] Speaker 2: simply is that when you begin to rely on memories
[1:01:51] Speaker 2: that old, or of events like that, sometimes the memories
[1:01:56] Speaker 2: aren't accurate. So you have to be careful in your research.
[1:01:58] Speaker 2: And that was why the Hicks and Parker thing was
[1:02:00] Speaker 2: important because we have documentation from that time of what
[1:02:05] Speaker 2: was happening and other witnesses coming forward. Allagash, we didn't
[1:02:08] Speaker 2: really have that sort of thing. But that's a very
[1:02:12] Speaker 2: interesting case. Like you said, I prefer the Terry Loveless
[1:02:15] Speaker 2: case to Allagash 4 as a better example of... Well,
[1:02:20] Speaker 2: kind of like Hickson Parker, Turley Lovelace was with another
[1:02:23] Speaker 2: fellow and they were out camping in the Devil's Den
[1:02:26] Speaker 2: area when the abduction took place. And I think that's
[1:02:29] Speaker 2: a much more interesting take.
[1:02:32] Speaker 1: I think that's one of the most interesting ones. I've
[1:02:34] Speaker 1: had Terry on a couple of times in the past
[1:02:36] Speaker 1: and he's got some very compelling information surrounding that. One
[1:02:41] Speaker 1: more thing I want to ask you about before I
[1:02:42] Speaker 1: let you go. The possibility of our military being in
[1:02:48] Speaker 1: possession of a non-human biologic or an extraterrestrial, if that
[1:02:52] Speaker 1: is the case, do you think during our lifetime that
[1:02:55] Speaker 1: would ever be revealed to be true?
[1:03:01] Speaker 2: I had hoped when President Trump was talking about getting
[1:03:05] Speaker 2: up into this and learning this stuff, and he was
[1:03:07] Speaker 2: supposed to have a major speech on it, I think
[1:03:09] Speaker 2: on July 8th, which didn't happen. Um, And talking to
[1:03:14] Speaker 2: Robert Schaefer, who's a great skeptic, I asked him, what
[1:03:17] Speaker 2: would it take for you to change your opinion? He said,
[1:03:20] Speaker 2: a head of state coming out and saying, yes, we
[1:03:22] Speaker 2: have this sort of thing. So if Trump came out
[1:03:24] Speaker 2: and said, sure, we have this sort of thing, that
[1:03:26] Speaker 2: would change the complex of the conversation. I think that
[1:03:33] Speaker 2: there are biological samples that we have recovered. I would
[1:03:39] Speaker 2: like better proof than we have. It's just, We've eliminated
[1:03:42] Speaker 2: the unusual. Now we're into the impossible. And I think
[1:03:47] Speaker 2: that makes more sense. And what is the answer for Roswell? Well,
[1:03:51] Speaker 2: we don't really have one. So I think that the
[1:03:55] Speaker 2: evidence exists. There are people who've talked a little bit
[1:03:58] Speaker 2: about this. I think of Robert Saubacher, who talked about
[1:04:00] Speaker 2: being involved in some kind of, and his story is
[1:04:05] Speaker 2: in the book, by the way, a flying saucer super committee,
[1:04:10] Speaker 2: He didn't really attend the meetings, but he got information
[1:04:13] Speaker 2: from the people. General Exxon talked about the bodies and
[1:04:16] Speaker 2: that sort of thing. I don't know. I don't know.
[1:04:21] Speaker 2: I don't have much hope for what's going on now.
[1:04:23] Speaker 2: I'd hope that we would get to the bottom of
[1:04:25] Speaker 2: it with what's been transpiring over the last couple of years.
[1:04:28] Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know. Something may happen. The
[1:04:31] Speaker 2: aliens control one aspect of it. If they want us
[1:04:34] Speaker 2: to know, they can land and say, here we are.
[1:04:36] Speaker 2: And then there's really no... denying it. But when you
[1:04:42] Speaker 2: control all the information, you have the evidence, you control
[1:04:46] Speaker 2: who can talk about it, what the penalties are for
[1:04:49] Speaker 2: talking out of school, then it's very difficult to get
[1:04:53] Speaker 2: the kind of evidence we need to say, yeah, this
[1:04:56] Speaker 2: is all true. I fear that we're not going to
[1:05:00] Speaker 2: get to the bottom of it in our lifetimes, but
[1:05:02] Speaker 2: something may change tomorrow to change that attitude as well.
[1:05:05] Speaker 1: Well, we're in interesting times, to say the least, and
[1:05:08] Speaker 1: great information in the book. Where can everybody pick this
[1:05:12] Speaker 1: up right now if they want to?
[1:05:15] Speaker 2: Amazon. You could go to Amazon right this minute, type
[1:05:18] Speaker 2: in UFO sightings and alien visitations, type my name in it,
[1:05:24] Speaker 2: and it'll take you right to the end. You can
[1:05:26] Speaker 2: have it within seconds of downloading it for an e-book.
[1:05:30] Speaker 2: You also can get a hard copy for like $ 14. 95.
[1:05:34] Speaker 2: And this is what I don't understand. You can get
[1:05:36] Speaker 2: a hardback copy for 60 bucks. I don't understand that
[1:05:40] Speaker 2: at all. I don't have a hardback copy. I don't
[1:05:41] Speaker 2: know if I want to spend 60 bucks and it's
[1:05:43] Speaker 2: my book for crying out loud, but you can get,
[1:05:46] Speaker 2: you can get, you can get a, a regular, what
[1:05:49] Speaker 2: they call a trade paperback book, which is the size
[1:05:52] Speaker 2: of a regular hardback book. And I think it's like
[1:05:55] Speaker 2: 1495 and you get the ebook cheaper than that. So
[1:05:57] Speaker 2: right now you can get it there. I don't know
[1:05:59] Speaker 2: about the distribution into bookstores because bookstores are, Slowly fading
[1:06:03] Speaker 2: from the countryside.
[1:06:05] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:06:05] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[1:06:05] Speaker 1: Well, I'll also have the link for that book easily
[1:06:09] Speaker 1: accessible for everyone in our description. Kevin, thank you so much.
[1:06:12] Speaker 1: Definitely love to talk again in the future. And until
[1:06:15] Speaker 1: next time, everyone have an excellent evening. We'll talk again tomorrow.
[1:06:20] Speaker 1: Watch Doors of Perception now on Amazon Prime. Are you
[1:06:26] Speaker 1: and your family prepared for an emergency? Maybe the fake
[1:06:30] Speaker 1: alien invasions. Now is the time to prepare yourself and
[1:06:34] Speaker 1: your family for any event. Check out PrepStarts now. Their
[1:06:39] Speaker 1: mission is to provide high-quality preparedness products that empower individuals
[1:06:44] Speaker 1: and families to be ready for any situation. They're committed
[1:06:48] Speaker 1: to delivering reliable, trusted gear to ensure your safety, security,
[1:06:53] Speaker 1: and peace of mind in times of need. Their product
[1:06:56] Speaker 1: selection is carefully curated to provide you with the essential
[1:07:00] Speaker 1: gear you need to stay prepared. From emergency kits to
[1:07:04] Speaker 1: tactical tools, every item is chosen for its reliability and practicality.
[1:07:10] Speaker 1: PrepStartsNow understands the importance of family, and their goal is
[1:07:15] Speaker 1: to equip you with everything you need to build a
[1:07:18] Speaker 1: solid plan for your family's preparedness. In today's ever-changing world,
[1:07:23] Speaker 1: being prepared is more important than ever, and PrepStarts Now
[1:07:28] Speaker 1: is here to help you and your family stay ready
[1:07:31] Speaker 1: with quality products and practical guidance. Use the link in
[1:07:35] Speaker 1: the description and get 15% off your order. We live
[1:07:41] Speaker 1: in an incredible age of information. More and more, we're
[1:07:45] Speaker 1: discovering that we've been lied to and misled about much
[1:07:49] Speaker 1: of our human histories. Corey Hughes is providing profound revelations
[1:07:54] Speaker 1: about World War I, World War II, the JFK assassination,
[1:08:00] Speaker 1: Martin Luther King's assassination, and much, much more on his
[1:08:04] Speaker 1: new substack, Bloody History. Subscribe now for as little as
[1:08:10] Speaker 1: $ 5 monthly. Just click that link right in the description
[1:08:13] Speaker 1: to get started now and learn about our true history. Hello, friends.
[1:08:19] Speaker 1: If you're looking to start your therapeutic microdosing journey but
[1:08:23] Speaker 1: don't know where to start, especially when looking for the
[1:08:26] Speaker 1: highest quality ingredients, including nootropics, and what you'd expect from
[1:08:32] Speaker 1: a true microdose capsule, check out our friends at Brain Supreme.
[1:08:36] Speaker 1: They offer the absolute highest quality ingredients so you can
[1:08:40] Speaker 1: start your microdosing journey knowing that you're getting top-notch ingredients.
[1:08:46] Speaker 1: To find out more, visit their website using that link
[1:08:49] Speaker 1: right in the description and you can get 15% off
[1:08:52] Speaker 1: your entire order.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.