# US Hydrogen Industry at Odds Over Tax Credit Rules

An episode of [Switched On](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1469286286), 1 May 2024, 40 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/01a10738-3608-4dec-883c-ae3c00026b36/76882c6e-6985-4a2e-8260-b16300aac754/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=6d114f63-833d-4b78-bbf5-ae3c00026b44

As part of the Inflation Reduction Act, draft guidance for the US hydrogen production tax credit was introduced in December 2023, with the aim of promoting decarbonization in hard-to-abate sectors and enhancing energy security in the country. While some applauded the draft guidance for preventing greenwashing and driving real decarbonization, others view these requirements as excessive, and fear they could potentially discourage investment in green hydrogen production. On today’s show, BNEF’s head of hydrogen research, Martin Tengler, hosts a conversation on hydrogen production in the US, with panelists Kathleen Barron, Executive Vice President and Chief Strategy Officer at Constellation; Claire Behar, Chief Commercial Officer at Hy Stor Energy; Elena Scaltritti, Chief Commercial Officer at Topsoe; and Andy Vesey, President and Chief Executive Officer at Fortescue North America. They discuss whether the tax credit rules are helping or hurting green hydrogen production in the US, the lack of demand incentives compared with the EU, and the role that nuclear could play in the hydrogen sector’s future. Today’s episode was recorded live at the BNEF Summit New York. To learn more about BNEF’s Summits and to listen to more interviews, please visit https://about.bnef.com/summit/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and your listening to Switched on
[0:04] Speaker 1: the BNAF podcast. Draft guidance for the US hydrogen Production
[0:08] Speaker 1: tax Credit was introduced in December of twenty twenty three,
[0:12] Speaker 1: with the aim of promoting decarbonization in hard to abate
[0:15] Speaker 1: sectors and enhancing energy security in the country as well.
[0:18] Speaker 1: The draft guidance requires electrolysis projects to meet additional criteria,
[0:23] Speaker 1: including hourly matching between clean energy production and power consumption.
[0:27] Speaker 1: While some applaud the draft guidance for preventing greenwashing and
[0:31] Speaker 1: driving real decarbonization, others view these requirements as excessive in
[0:35] Speaker 1: fear they could potentially discourage investment in green hydrogen production.
[0:40] Speaker 1: On today's show, we bring you a discussion from bnaf's
[0:43] Speaker 1: recent summit in New York, where Martin Tangler, who leads
[0:46] Speaker 1: BNF's hydrogen research, spoke with Kathleen Baron, Executive vice president
[0:50] Speaker 1: and chief Strategy Officer at Constellation, alongside Claire Bahar, chief
[0:54] Speaker 1: commercial officer at High Store Energy, and Elena Scaltreaty, chief
[0:58] Speaker 1: commercial officer at TOPSO and l. Lastly, Andy Vezy, President
[1:01] Speaker 1: and chief executive officer at forties U North America. During
[1:05] Speaker 1: their lively discussion of the forty five v tax credit.
[1:08] Speaker 1: They considered whether a heavy focus on green hydrogen production
[1:12] Speaker 1: overlooks hydrogen adoption, and they compared the US to Europe,
[1:15] Speaker 1: where you do see demand side incentives. As they consider
[1:19] Speaker 1: what it will take to build out a hydrogen industry
[1:21] Speaker 1: in the United States, they got into which technologies are
[1:24] Speaker 1: going to help them get there and the associated costs.
[1:28] Speaker 1: Agendas and videos from previous b andF summits, including this one,
[1:32] Speaker 1: can be found at BNF dot com under the events tab.
[1:35] Speaker 1: As always, if you like this podcast, make sure to
[1:38] Speaker 1: subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts,
[1:42] Speaker 1: and consider giving us a review to make us more
[1:44] Speaker 1: discoverable by others. Right now, though, let's hear Martin's panel
[1:48] Speaker 1: from the BNF summit in New York titled Controversial Shifts
[1:51] Speaker 1: in America's green hydrogen Landscape.
[2:03] Speaker 2: Let's jump straight in.
[2:04] Speaker 3: So when President Biden signed the Inflation Reduction Act in
[2:09] Speaker 3: August twenty twenty two, many in the hydrogen industry saw
[2:13] Speaker 3: it as a turning point, as a real game changer.
[2:17] Speaker 3: A three dollar per kilogram tax credit for anybody who
[2:20] Speaker 3: can make hydrogen with very, very low carbon emissions, but
[2:25] Speaker 3: almost two years later, no one has actually received a
[2:28] Speaker 3: single dollar because we're waiting for guidance on how these
[2:32] Speaker 3: credits can be claimed. In December, the Treasury and the
[2:36] Speaker 3: IRS published a draft of this guidance, and this draft
[2:41] Speaker 3: is quite controversial for including the so called three pillars
[2:47] Speaker 3: of additionality, time matching, and deliverability. Most companies want leniency
[2:54] Speaker 3: on these three pillars, but some are in favor. Billions
[2:59] Speaker 3: of dollars.
[2:59] Speaker 2: Are a stake in this debate, and everybody agrees on
[3:03] Speaker 2: one thing.
[3:04] Speaker 3: We need final rules as soon as possible, and this
[3:08] Speaker 3: is where we get to our panelists. Claire, you've become
[3:13] Speaker 3: quite famous recently for coming out in favor of these
[3:18] Speaker 3: really strict rules. So I'm going to quote your recent
[3:21] Speaker 3: testimony at a public hearing on March the twenty fifth,
[3:24] Speaker 3: where you said high store energy urges the Treasury and
[3:29] Speaker 3: the IRS to adopt the three pillars approach, requiring additionality
[3:33] Speaker 3: from day one, strong deliverability standards, and a phase in
[3:37] Speaker 3: of hourly matching by twenty twenty eight. First, can you
[3:40] Speaker 3: explain to us what these three pillars are so we
[3:43] Speaker 3: educate the audience, And second, what makes it possible for
[3:46] Speaker 3: you to argue in favor of these three pillars when
[3:50] Speaker 3: some of our other panelists and most of the industry
[3:53] Speaker 3: seem to be in favor of some leniency.
[3:56] Speaker 4: Perfect.
[3:57] Speaker 5: Thank you Martin, and thank you Bin Yaf for the
[3:59] Speaker 5: upper to need to speak today. I'll start with defining
[4:03] Speaker 5: what the three pillars are. The three pillars are strict
[4:07] Speaker 5: guidelines in relation to the guidelines.
[4:13] Speaker 4: For grid connected electrilizers.
[4:16] Speaker 5: And these guidelines are to ensure that there is robust
[4:19] Speaker 5: accounting for the carbon emissions associated with grid connected electrilizers.
[4:25] Speaker 5: And so, starting with additionality, it's a requirement that new
[4:30] Speaker 5: new green electrons are powering the electrilizers. For regionality, this
[4:37] Speaker 5: is to ensure that the clean hydrogen production is in
[4:41] Speaker 5: the same location as the clean electricity that's powering them.
[4:47] Speaker 5: And this is to ensure that you're not claiming green
[4:53] Speaker 5: electrons in West Texas, for example. Are then correlating to
[4:57] Speaker 5: your project, your hydrogen project in the new work.
[5:00] Speaker 4: And then lastly is time matching.
[5:02] Speaker 5: That's to ensure that the clean electricity is being produced
[5:05] Speaker 5: at the same time as the green hydrogen production. So
[5:10] Speaker 5: the guidelines have a transition periods similar to that of
[5:13] Speaker 5: the EU that allow for an annual matching until twenty
[5:18] Speaker 5: twenty eight, and then from then on it's an hourly matching.
[5:23] Speaker 5: And the reason why these three pillars are so important,
[5:26] Speaker 5: it's to ensure that we're investing in long term infrastructure
[5:30] Speaker 5: that are decreasing emissions instead of in fact increasing emissions.
[5:36] Speaker 5: And unfortunately, today our electric grid is still predominantly fossil
[5:41] Speaker 5: fuel based sixty seventy, as high as eighty percent in
[5:45] Speaker 5: some locations.
[5:46] Speaker 4: And so if you are putting on a large.
[5:51] Speaker 5: Load and you're not then adding more renewable electricity such
[5:56] Speaker 5: as wind or solar, you are in fact increasing the
[6:00] Speaker 5: demand for fossil fuels that would be backfilled by peakers
[6:04] Speaker 5: that are coal and natural gas and so high store energy.
[6:09] Speaker 4: You know, really applauds the Treasury.
[6:11] Speaker 5: For taking this stance and ensuring that the three pillars
[6:14] Speaker 5: are upheld. And from our perspective, our project prior to
[6:20] Speaker 5: the guidelines is going to be three pillar compliant from
[6:23] Speaker 5: day one. And our first project is the Mississipi Clean
[6:28] Speaker 5: Hydrogen Hub, which couples on site, off grid dedicated renewables
[6:33] Speaker 5: for our electrolysis production and salt cavern storage CO located
[6:38] Speaker 5: and storage gives us the ability to store access hydrogen
[6:43] Speaker 5: and then it is dispatchable on demand four times when.
[6:48] Speaker 4: The wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shining.
[6:51] Speaker 5: And you know, holistically, we're in this business to decarbonize
[6:58] Speaker 5: and it's not about just having another another molecule. We say,
[7:04] Speaker 5: if you're going to burn natural gas, burnatural gas, don't.
[7:08] Speaker 4: Go through all the loops, okay to get there.
[7:13] Speaker 3: So it's a combination of those off gride renewables as
[7:17] Speaker 3: opposed to on grid, which I think that's that's relatively
[7:19] Speaker 3: easy to understand. You managed to save some costs by
[7:22] Speaker 3: not paying some of the expensive grid fees, and then
[7:25] Speaker 3: those that salt cavern storage, right, and the salt caverns
[7:28] Speaker 3: is to me that that's a really really key factor
[7:31] Speaker 3: of the projects that you're building.
[7:34] Speaker 2: And salt caverns.
[7:35] Speaker 3: Are quite quite rare, right, You don't get to build
[7:38] Speaker 3: salt caverns just just anywhere. I don't think you could
[7:39] Speaker 3: build a salt cabon Europe because we're not sitting on
[7:41] Speaker 3: a salt deposit right now. So would you consider building
[7:45] Speaker 3: projects if you didn't have salt caverns?
[7:49] Speaker 5: Well, So the salt cavern storage is really key for
[7:52] Speaker 5: both the scale and the duration. It's that long duration,
[7:57] Speaker 5: that multi day, multi week and seasonal energy storage that
[8:01] Speaker 5: we're prioritizing in the off take markets we're looking at,
[8:05] Speaker 5: which are the energy intensive industries where direct electrification is
[8:09] Speaker 5: not a viable option. And it's these off take markets,
[8:13] Speaker 5: for example, steel, that are the first movers that are
[8:17] Speaker 5: already there with their customers showing the green premium that they.
[8:22] Speaker 4: Want a zero carbon solution.
[8:24] Speaker 5: And from the commercial point of view, this transparency in
[8:29] Speaker 5: carbon emissions is exactly what our customers are asking for to.
[8:33] Speaker 4: Ensure that they can.
[8:36] Speaker 5: Account for their scope one, two and three emissions and
[8:39] Speaker 5: most importantly that the products they're producing today in the
[8:43] Speaker 5: United States with clean hydrogen is competitive and accepted on
[8:48] Speaker 5: a global scale.
[8:49] Speaker 3: Okay, so customers wanted one final one before we get
[8:52] Speaker 3: to Andy, who I sure, I'm sure has very different,
[8:54] Speaker 3: very different view on this. So would your position be different,
[8:57] Speaker 3: Claire if your project was not based on top of
[9:01] Speaker 3: salt caverns, which you'd be also asking for some leniency There.
[9:05] Speaker 5: No, because leniency with the market in such infancy, there
[9:10] Speaker 5: is urgency, but we cannot be sacrificing urgency with investing
[9:17] Speaker 5: in infrastructure that's going to continue to lock in fossil fuels.
[9:21] Speaker 4: The goal is decarbonization and.
[9:23] Speaker 5: To transition off of fossil fuels and hydrogen is an
[9:27] Speaker 5: excellent solution because it provides that molecule that can be
[9:32] Speaker 5: stored and transported over long distances, and we need to
[9:36] Speaker 5: be prioritizing it in the areas of the economy where
[9:40] Speaker 5: direct electrification is not a viable option, and not trying
[9:45] Speaker 5: to have it spread thin, wide and thin.
[9:48] Speaker 4: It needs to be concentrated.
[9:50] Speaker 2: Okay, good to know.
[9:51] Speaker 3: So no leniency even if you don't have if you
[9:53] Speaker 3: didn't have salt caverns.
[9:55] Speaker 2: Okay.
[9:55] Speaker 3: I wonder what Andy has to say, because Andy, you
[9:58] Speaker 3: are one of the strongest, is asking for those more
[10:02] Speaker 3: lenient rules in your testimony in that same hearing where
[10:06] Speaker 3: Claire was speaking in March, you said, I'm quoting forty
[10:10] Speaker 3: five V in its current form is a strait jacket
[10:14] Speaker 3: on the energy on the emerging industry. The only solution
[10:18] Speaker 3: is to add a minimum include grandfathering first mover projects.
[10:24] Speaker 2: First, can you explain what grandfathering means?
[10:27] Speaker 3: And then second, why do you feel this way if
[10:29] Speaker 3: Claire says that she can make her projects work even
[10:33] Speaker 3: with those strict rules.
[10:34] Speaker 6: Yeah.
[10:35] Speaker 7: Sure, And first of all, let me say that I
[10:37] Speaker 7: hope everybody's sitting in this panel is wildly successful because
[10:42] Speaker 7: because we need very low carbon hydrogen, right, we need
[10:49] Speaker 7: it as soon as possible, but we needed to have
[10:52] Speaker 7: it at the lowest possible cost, right. I think there's
[10:55] Speaker 7: a lot in here to unpack. And you know, I
[10:58] Speaker 7: think we've talked before. I said that you know where
[11:00] Speaker 7: you stand on this issue starts with where you sit, right,
[11:05] Speaker 7: And if I was sitting in a similar position, then
[11:07] Speaker 7: I could basically say, Yep, I'm supportive of these things
[11:10] Speaker 7: because I know why seventy five percent of the industry
[11:12] Speaker 7: can't compete with me because I can't do it and
[11:14] Speaker 7: it's all price. So I think that's great. But here's
[11:17] Speaker 7: the deal. We're not doing projects here. We're trying to
[11:19] Speaker 7: build an industry. We're trying to build an industry, and
[11:23] Speaker 7: the key in building the industry is driving the cost
[11:26] Speaker 7: of every molecule down. I always get challenged, well, nobody
[11:30] Speaker 7: wants to buy green hydrogen. No, nobody wants to pay
[11:33] Speaker 7: the price. But if I could sell that green molecule
[11:36] Speaker 7: at the same price as grey. Everybody would buy green hydrogen.
[11:39] Speaker 7: We'd all be happy as heck. Right, So how do
[11:42] Speaker 7: you get there? Well, the Body Administration in the Inflation
[11:46] Speaker 7: Reduction Act anticipated driving the cost of that molecule down
[11:50] Speaker 7: by twenty thirty to a dollar a kilogram.
[11:53] Speaker 6: And this was really to incent and get this started. Right,
[11:56] Speaker 6: And why is it so important that we have as
[11:58] Speaker 6: many projects going now?
[11:59] Speaker 7: Include I mean the early ones that don't meet the
[12:02] Speaker 7: three pillars or one of the three pillars, because almost
[12:05] Speaker 7: all of them can meet one, which is deliverability.
[12:07] Speaker 6: I can't find too many that don't. Right. Why is
[12:10] Speaker 6: it so important?
[12:10] Speaker 7: Because the more you do, the more projects that go,
[12:13] Speaker 7: the ones that are successful, the ones that fail. You're
[12:16] Speaker 7: building economies of scale, economies of manufacture to bring down
[12:19] Speaker 7: your costs, and economies of novels. You get smarter about
[12:22] Speaker 7: how to do it. You got to drive that engine.
[12:25] Speaker 6: To be successful. And here's the deal.
[12:27] Speaker 7: If we made the same requirements from this industry to
[12:31] Speaker 7: have to bring its own green electrons to the party,
[12:33] Speaker 7: and we made that apply to everybody who was making
[12:36] Speaker 7: electric vehicles, I would not be driving my electric vehicle today.
[12:39] Speaker 6: Why this one. Right. And here's the other issue. We're
[12:42] Speaker 6: trying to solve too.
[12:43] Speaker 7: Many problems with one piece of rulemaking. Right, there are
[12:48] Speaker 7: two point six tero watts of renewable standing in queues.
[12:52] Speaker 7: That's twice the installed total capacity. Now we're going to
[12:56] Speaker 7: require even more pressure to push through that houses in
[13:00] Speaker 7: the industry going to start. Yes, I'm very happy that
[13:03] Speaker 7: high store is going to have a project.
[13:04] Speaker 6: I really am. But that's not going to build an industry.
[13:07] Speaker 7: You have to open and broaden that aperture, right, and
[13:11] Speaker 7: then it will close over time.
[13:13] Speaker 6: We're not advocating that.
[13:14] Speaker 7: We people don't pay attention to the three pillars because
[13:17] Speaker 7: they are critically important. Right, you said it. We have
[13:20] Speaker 7: no totally green grids, right, we have done right. The
[13:23] Speaker 7: other thing we don't have is we don't have enough
[13:26] Speaker 7: green electrons. We have to sort that in time. But
[13:29] Speaker 7: we're saying that for projects that can get into construction
[13:32] Speaker 7: by twenty twenty eight, they should be grand funds so
[13:35] Speaker 7: we get them going.
[13:37] Speaker 6: Right.
[13:37] Speaker 7: And one other issue which no one talks about outside
[13:40] Speaker 7: the Three Pillars is the creep model. So every year
[13:42] Speaker 7: you have to reevaluate the credits you're getting what they're worth.
[13:45] Speaker 6: Who can finance a project that way. So there's a
[13:48] Speaker 6: lot of work to be done.
[13:49] Speaker 7: But here's the deal. Every effort, every effort is good.
[13:53] Speaker 7: Let's widen the aperture, let's not restrict it right off
[13:56] Speaker 7: the bat. So we have a few projects because here's
[13:58] Speaker 7: what forty five in its purest form will do.
[14:02] Speaker 6: It will make the plant smaller.
[14:03] Speaker 7: All right, you can ask me why, but I'm not
[14:05] Speaker 7: going to explain.
[14:06] Speaker 6: Now.
[14:06] Speaker 7: Smaller, there will be fewer of them, and they will
[14:10] Speaker 7: cost more. Estimates right now is that projects will increase
[14:13] Speaker 7: in cost between one hundred and forty one seventy five percent.
[14:15] Speaker 6: To the end consumer.
[14:17] Speaker 7: How are you going to build demand that is ensuring
[14:20] Speaker 7: absolutely ensuring that high carbon intensity hydrogen.
[14:24] Speaker 6: Comes into this market. So let me stop there and.
[14:29] Speaker 2: I get it.
[14:29] Speaker 3: So, more expensive hydrogen, fewer projects, smaller projects. So you
[14:35] Speaker 3: said your position, You know you stand where you sit.
[14:40] Speaker 3: Why don't you or why doesn't Fortescue sit on top
[14:43] Speaker 3: of salt caverns?
[14:45] Speaker 7: Well, I'll tell you where we do so. Well, first
[14:47] Speaker 7: of all, look, I think you said it right. They're
[14:49] Speaker 7: very few and it's not all salt, it's domo salt.
[14:53] Speaker 7: And if you look at a map. There are only
[14:54] Speaker 7: so many, right, it's a scarce resource. But if you'd
[14:57] Speaker 7: ask me where Fordescue sits, it sits on planet Earth. Yeah,
[15:00] Speaker 7: we all do, right, we all do, and therefore get
[15:04] Speaker 7: to decarbonization with a molecule for people who can't use
[15:07] Speaker 7: an electron should be in all our best interests. Widening
[15:12] Speaker 7: the amperture, right, doesn't impact I store. Right, you call
[15:16] Speaker 7: it lenient, or you called it lenient, that's a judgment already.
[15:21] Speaker 6: I call it appropriate.
[15:22] Speaker 7: Right, So let's build an industry here, and let's not
[15:26] Speaker 7: try to solve every problem with one piece of rulemaking
[15:29] Speaker 7: today when we're really building an industry for the twenty
[15:32] Speaker 7: thirties and twenty forties.
[15:33] Speaker 2: Right, I call it more lenient, not linient. Andy.
[15:37] Speaker 3: One final for you before we move on to Elena
[15:40] Speaker 3: and Kathleen. So both you and Claire, this is really interesting.
[15:44] Speaker 3: Both you and Claire are members of GH two, which
[15:48] Speaker 3: is one of the strictest hydrogen standards before you have
[15:52] Speaker 3: to produce your hydrogen at one kilogram of CO two
[15:55] Speaker 3: or less per kilogram of hydrogen that you make. Your CEO,
[15:59] Speaker 3: Andrew Forest is on the board of the GH two organization.
[16:04] Speaker 3: So isn't your dislike of the hourly matching pillar at
[16:08] Speaker 3: odds with your membership of the GH two.
[16:11] Speaker 7: No, I don't think so, because it doesn't actually specify
[16:14] Speaker 7: hourly matching, monthly matching, or annually matching. What it does
[16:17] Speaker 7: requires we follow the rules and laws that are in
[16:19] Speaker 7: place that it does.
[16:21] Speaker 6: Look.
[16:21] Speaker 7: I think for FORDESCU, we have an absolute commitment that
[16:25] Speaker 7: we will never leave anything worse offt than when we come,
[16:27] Speaker 7: whether it's a water aquifer, the community in terms of
[16:30] Speaker 7: what we're doing, or that we will directly impact in
[16:34] Speaker 7: higher emissions of CO two.
[16:36] Speaker 6: We have a.
[16:36] Speaker 7: Project in Washington State, in Washington State, they manage that
[16:40] Speaker 7: in Washington State. It's hydro power in Washington State. That
[16:45] Speaker 7: project would not meet this requirement, and it's a perfectly
[16:49] Speaker 7: good project.
[16:51] Speaker 6: This is what we have to sort out.
[16:52] Speaker 7: There's nothing There are a few pieces in conflict here,
[16:55] Speaker 7: but what's non in conflict for anybody on this stage
[16:57] Speaker 7: is the urgency by which we have to produce those
[17:00] Speaker 7: very low carbon intensity molecules.
[17:03] Speaker 6: So let's get at it.
[17:05] Speaker 7: Let's make it so people can come to this game
[17:07] Speaker 7: and we can learn, we can build, we can manufacture.
[17:10] Speaker 6: And here's the other piece of it.
[17:11] Speaker 7: If we're increasing the cost of these projects, what's a
[17:14] Speaker 7: project developed going to do. You're gonna buy the cheapest
[17:16] Speaker 7: electualized as you can know where they're.
[17:18] Speaker 8: Made China, tie them.
[17:20] Speaker 7: And the whole purpose of this bill was to build
[17:22] Speaker 7: infrastructure in this country.
[17:25] Speaker 3: We have a report on electronizing in China. They're not
[17:26] Speaker 3: gonna have it as easy as it seems.
[17:28] Speaker 7: Even let me tell you, they'll have it easier when
[17:31] Speaker 7: everybody's buying them, because they have to get those costs.
[17:34] Speaker 6: Down here to manage the cost of that molecule. All right.
[17:37] Speaker 7: And here's the other thing. Fortescue is a large public
[17:40] Speaker 7: company in Australia. We're in thirty different countries and I
[17:43] Speaker 7: have to go before Andrew Farst and tell them why
[17:45] Speaker 7: I think he should put a dollar of his money
[17:47] Speaker 7: here versus Morocco, versus Egypt, versus Norway. Right, So, think
[17:55] Speaker 7: about where capital is going to go, where the capital
[17:56] Speaker 7: flows are going to go. And one other aspect of
[17:58] Speaker 7: this and the Inflation Reduction Act was the creation of
[18:02] Speaker 7: an industry having capital invested here. So these are the
[18:06] Speaker 7: things why we're concerned about and why we might have
[18:08] Speaker 7: a slightly different view on this than.
[18:11] Speaker 6: High stool good.
[18:14] Speaker 3: Good to know that your membership of the G two
[18:17] Speaker 3: standard is not at odds with your arguments for leniency
[18:23] Speaker 3: or more leniency on these rules.
[18:26] Speaker 2: Moving on to Elena, So Elena.
[18:30] Speaker 3: Many green hydrogen proponents say that the proposed guidance, the
[18:35] Speaker 3: strict guidance, benefits blue hydrogen by being too strict on
[18:41] Speaker 3: green and therefore constraining green hydrogen and making blue the
[18:45] Speaker 3: default technology to go to. And your company, top so So
[18:49] Speaker 3: licenses a blue hydrogen technology called sincore to firms like
[18:54] Speaker 3: Exxon and Fidelis. But your client, Exxon is now threatening
[18:58] Speaker 3: to ditch a blue hydrogen project that would use your
[19:02] Speaker 3: technology because the rules would make it hard for them
[19:06] Speaker 3: to qualify for the clean Hydrogen credit and they would
[19:10] Speaker 3: have to settle for a lower credit, the forty five
[19:12] Speaker 3: Q credit for carbon.
[19:14] Speaker 2: Capture and storage. So what is your view?
[19:17] Speaker 3: Does the current guidance on green hydrogen help blue hydrogen
[19:21] Speaker 3: by constraining green or does it hurt blue hydrogen because
[19:24] Speaker 3: it doesn't get those doesn't allow them to get those credits.
[19:28] Speaker 9: So thank you and really pleased to be here. Let
[19:32] Speaker 9: me start by saying that at TOPS we have the
[19:36] Speaker 9: beauty of having a number of technologies that actually speak
[19:41] Speaker 9: to all colors, and for that, we are color agnostic
[19:45] Speaker 9: when it comes to hydrogen. So in fact, we tend
[19:48] Speaker 9: to talk about low carbon hydrogen and renewable hydrogen.
[19:52] Speaker 8: And when you look at our.
[19:54] Speaker 9: Portfolio of technologies, it's true we have blue with our sinker,
[19:57] Speaker 9: which is fully commercial and fully scaled technology, but we
[20:02] Speaker 9: are making huge investments for our size of company in
[20:07] Speaker 9: green with the electoralizer, the sec electoralizer, So we are
[20:11] Speaker 9: really invested in both technologies and in many more because
[20:15] Speaker 9: we are as well in renewable fuels. So as a
[20:19] Speaker 9: matter of fact, we are quite agnostic. And as and said,
[20:23] Speaker 9: we are all for the carbonization in whatever form and
[20:26] Speaker 9: shape it takes place, as long as it takes place
[20:30] Speaker 9: fast enough that we can commit and actually get to
[20:34] Speaker 9: our twenty to fifty targets. So I think everybody that
[20:39] Speaker 9: talks about forty five V at the moment is unhappy, whether.
[20:43] Speaker 2: It's green or blue.
[20:45] Speaker 9: So in any shade of color, when we think of green,
[20:50] Speaker 9: and we think of our own investments and the customers
[20:53] Speaker 9: we talk to, there is certainly a concern about availability
[20:56] Speaker 9: of fitstocks to actually scale the technology, tests, the technology
[21:02] Speaker 9: make it making sure that it comes you know, at
[21:04] Speaker 9: the right cost, in the right amount of time. But
[21:07] Speaker 9: also when we speak to our customers in the low
[21:11] Speaker 9: carbon hydrogen and low carbon ammonia for that or blue
[21:16] Speaker 9: hydrogen and ammonia, they do have concerns that actually, as
[21:19] Speaker 9: it is shaped at the moment, the forty five V
[21:23] Speaker 9: doesn't really favor decarbonization. Why because actually it sets a
[21:28] Speaker 9: standard which is for the calculation of the carbon intensity
[21:33] Speaker 9: based on the carbon intensity of the fitstocks, which are
[21:37] Speaker 9: based on historical heverages, So actually not favoring projects and
[21:41] Speaker 9: those and those project developers that want to be more
[21:47] Speaker 9: ambitious that actually want to make investment towards decarbonizing the
[21:51] Speaker 9: whole value chain methane emissions and also being more ambitious
[21:56] Speaker 9: on the carbon capture on the process of hydrogen production,
[22:00] Speaker 9: hence actually failing a bit the whole purpose and the
[22:04] Speaker 9: philosophy of the i RA and the forty five V specifically.
[22:09] Speaker 9: So if we have advice accordingly, we would actually advise
[22:13] Speaker 9: changes both with regards to green hydrogen and to low
[22:17] Speaker 9: carbon hydrogen, and just with the purpose of doing things
[22:22] Speaker 9: quickly enough that you can scale up technology, but that
[22:26] Speaker 9: you can also enable and implement technologies that are already
[22:31] Speaker 9: fully scaled and commercial and can bring an enormous impact
[22:35] Speaker 9: in a relatively short amount of time.
[22:38] Speaker 3: Okay, So Topsail winds either way, whether it's blue or green,
[22:43] Speaker 3: or low carbon or renewable.
[22:44] Speaker 6: What a happy company?
[22:46] Speaker 9: No, I always say, I don't know if it's by
[22:48] Speaker 9: design or by luck, but we sit right in the
[22:51] Speaker 9: middle of the energy transition, and our ambition is actually
[22:55] Speaker 9: to make it happen. And it's just good that I
[22:59] Speaker 9: think we're quite neutral towards the quarter that it is
[23:04] Speaker 9: to take.
[23:05] Speaker 3: Okay, do our other panels have anything to say? And
[23:09] Speaker 3: de Claire, what do you guys think about the impact.
[23:13] Speaker 2: Of this guidance on blue? Is it good for blue?
[23:17] Speaker 2: Or is it bad for blue?
[23:20] Speaker 5: I think the common I'll make is, unfortunately, so much
[23:24] Speaker 5: attention has been brought to forty five V and almost
[23:28] Speaker 5: pitting green hydrogen companies against each other, while no attention
[23:34] Speaker 5: has been put on forty five Q with blue hydrogen.
[23:37] Speaker 5: So I think, you know, as Andy said, everyone up
[23:41] Speaker 5: here in favor of green, and it's it is about decarbonization.
[23:46] Speaker 4: So I think I'll say.
[23:48] Speaker 3: That, okay, or all in favor of decarbonization, that's good.
[23:54] Speaker 2: So if not, we were in the wrong place.
[24:00] Speaker 3: Moving on to another topic, and this is where we
[24:03] Speaker 3: bring our last panelist to Kathleen. Kathleen, your company, Constellation
[24:10] Speaker 3: has the biggest nuclear fleet in the US, twenty one reactors.
[24:14] Speaker 2: If I check correctly.
[24:17] Speaker 3: Now, the nuclear industry has struggled somewhat economically in the
[24:21] Speaker 3: recent past, at least so my colleagues in the Power
[24:24] Speaker 3: team tell me. So it's not a surprise, of course
[24:27] Speaker 3: that the nuclear industry would like to get some benefits
[24:31] Speaker 3: from from making making hydrogen. But the draft guidance right
[24:35] Speaker 3: now excludes most nuclear because of the additionality claws. So
[24:40] Speaker 3: if you're three years or older, your plants is three
[24:43] Speaker 3: years older than you know, you don't qualify it with
[24:46] Speaker 3: the current rules. So your CEO, Joe Dominguez, in an
[24:48] Speaker 3: interview with Bloomberg called the additionality rule crazy.
[24:52] Speaker 2: So how that's that's quoting quoting it.
[24:58] Speaker 3: How important is hydrogen And it seems like hygien really
[25:01] Speaker 3: is very important for the nuclear industry, But how important
[25:04] Speaker 3: is it for nuclear industry? Is it a matter of
[25:06] Speaker 3: life and death for the nuclear industry that these credits
[25:08] Speaker 3: don't work out?
[25:09] Speaker 2: Then, you know, we're folding.
[25:11] Speaker 10: So I have to start out by saying, not only
[25:13] Speaker 10: do we have an expert moderator, but we.
[25:15] Speaker 8: Have a comedian moderator. So this is the best panel
[25:18] Speaker 8: I've ever been on. This is great.
[25:21] Speaker 10: Hydrogen is important to nuclear nuclear is important to hydrogen.
[25:24] Speaker 10: I just I need to go back to the passage
[25:26] Speaker 10: of the bill. This is not like a policy conversation.
[25:29] Speaker 10: I am a recovering lawyer, so I have to focus
[25:31] Speaker 10: on the fact that the statute is explicit that nuclear
[25:35] Speaker 10: can be used to power an electrolyizer and make hydrogen
[25:39] Speaker 10: that can qualify for the credit. In fact, we are
[25:41] Speaker 10: already making clean hydrogen with nuclear energy at an electrolyizer
[25:46] Speaker 10: that we built in New York right next to one
[25:49] Speaker 10: of our plants.
[25:50] Speaker 8: The reason we built that is because we've got.
[25:52] Speaker 10: A grant from the Department of Energy to build that electrilyizer.
[25:55] Speaker 10: We've also gone to grant to power one of the
[25:58] Speaker 10: seven hydrogen hubs, the one that is encompassing the Midwest States.
[26:04] Speaker 10: Not going to happen if we can't use the nuclear
[26:06] Speaker 10: energy to make the hydrogen at that For that hub,
[26:10] Speaker 10: all that work, that's nine hundred million dollars of an investment.
[26:12] Speaker 10: That's on pause while we wait for the guidance to
[26:16] Speaker 10: come out. So we'll see what happens when we see
[26:21] Speaker 10: the final rules. But you said a moment ago, no
[26:24] Speaker 10: one's making hydrogen here. We're making hydrogen here, we're claiming
[26:27] Speaker 10: the credit. So if we have to visit with the
[26:32] Speaker 10: courts to sort out whether the final guidance is consistent
[26:35] Speaker 10: with the statute or not, we've already had center mansion
[26:38] Speaker 10: offered right an Amikus brief.
[26:40] Speaker 8: The people who wrote this bill.
[26:42] Speaker 10: Didn't write additionality into it. They knew how to specify
[26:46] Speaker 10: when something needed to be built by a certain date.
[26:48] Speaker 10: They didn't do that with respect to the electricity going
[26:51] Speaker 10: into the electrolyzer.
[26:52] Speaker 8: They just said it had to be zero carbon.
[26:54] Speaker 10: We make more zero carbon magwats than anyone in the country.
[26:58] Speaker 8: One out of every ten comes out of one or.
[27:00] Speaker 10: Machines, and so yes, we are focusing on this as
[27:03] Speaker 10: a way to ensure the long term operation of the
[27:06] Speaker 10: nation's nuclear fleet. The Inflation Reduction Act was the first
[27:10] Speaker 10: time the federal government provided a credit to existing resources.
[27:14] Speaker 10: So the fleet is receiving your credit, But unlike the
[27:17] Speaker 10: other credits in the Act, it does expire in eight years.
[27:20] Speaker 10: So if a nuclear reactor were able to sell clean electricity,
[27:25] Speaker 10: whether through the grid or directly behind the meter to
[27:28] Speaker 10: an electoralizer, those types of contracts only need to be
[27:34] Speaker 10: You could still claim the credit if you sign one
[27:36] Speaker 10: of those contracts early in the twenty thirties and it's
[27:39] Speaker 10: in place for ten years. So it's a long term
[27:42] Speaker 10: potential revenue stream to provide the reactor a reason to
[27:46] Speaker 10: stay on the grid past the expiration of the forty
[27:49] Speaker 10: five year credit.
[27:51] Speaker 3: Okay, so this is a long term mechanism for nuclear
[27:54] Speaker 3: to live. And I'm glad you mentioned the other credit
[27:57] Speaker 3: because that was going to be my next question. Nuclear
[28:00] Speaker 3: industry is getting its own forty five you credit for.
[28:06] Speaker 2: Nuclear power plants.
[28:08] Speaker 3: So do I understand it correctly that the forty five
[28:11] Speaker 3: view in your view is not giving you enough of
[28:15] Speaker 3: a long long, you know, long enough supply of money,
[28:20] Speaker 3: and then you would need for the longer term to
[28:23] Speaker 3: be producing the hydrogen.
[28:25] Speaker 6: Yeah.
[28:25] Speaker 10: To be clear, forty five view is designed to ensure
[28:29] Speaker 10: that a reactor can recover its cost of operations if
[28:33] Speaker 10: market prices are below its cost of operation. So, unlike
[28:35] Speaker 10: credits for wind and solar, the forty five U credit
[28:38] Speaker 10: actually phases down as market prices go up. It has
[28:41] Speaker 10: that built in consumer projection feature. But the point is
[28:43] Speaker 10: it expires in eight years, So unlike the renewable credits,
[28:47] Speaker 10: which will be in place till all of your children
[28:50] Speaker 10: are grown and have their own kids, this this this
[28:53] Speaker 10: credit will not be So it is a potential revenue source.
[28:58] Speaker 10: You know, all the points we've made here about demand
[29:01] Speaker 10: are accurate. We need to have a market for this commodity,
[29:04] Speaker 10: and therefore we need to get going at bringing down
[29:07] Speaker 10: the cost, as we've done with other types of technology,
[29:09] Speaker 10: so that it can be a long term source of revenue.
[29:12] Speaker 10: But you know, we're sort of stuck in the starting
[29:15] Speaker 10: blocks here, and you know, this notion of additionality just
[29:20] Speaker 10: we struggle with it just economically. I mean, if the
[29:23] Speaker 10: logic is that wind farm or solar farm wouldn't be
[29:28] Speaker 10: there but for the hydrogen credit, I just I struggle
[29:33] Speaker 10: with that because I know all of you who woke
[29:34] Speaker 10: up this morning and say, gee, I wish we had
[29:36] Speaker 10: more wind and solar on the grid.
[29:38] Speaker 8: You don't think, well.
[29:39] Speaker 10: Geez, if only we had more hydrogen, you know, subsidies.
[29:42] Speaker 10: It's we don't have an interconnection queue that works. We
[29:45] Speaker 10: need wind, and we need zoning and permitting to improve.
[29:48] Speaker 10: We need a better supply chain, We need the skilled workforce.
[29:51] Speaker 10: We have demand for new renewables.
[29:54] Speaker 8: They are not coming on the grid because of hydrogen.
[29:56] Speaker 10: So if you're using renewables to make hydrogen, you are
[29:59] Speaker 10: accountable the grid when you use new resource the same
[30:02] Speaker 10: way as the argument goes, you do so if you're
[30:04] Speaker 10: using an existing resource. So we need to build more
[30:07] Speaker 10: clean We need to get to a clean grid. We're
[30:10] Speaker 10: trying to do too much with this credit. You know,
[30:13] Speaker 10: the courts don't usually love it when agencies that aren't
[30:16] Speaker 10: you know, experts in something to try to manage it.
[30:19] Speaker 10: So I fear that's where this is going if if
[30:23] Speaker 10: we don't have some more rationality in the final rule.
[30:26] Speaker 3: Okay, so we learn about the importance of the hydrogen
[30:32] Speaker 3: credit to the nuclear industry. Now what I'm interested in
[30:36] Speaker 3: is the other way around. What's the importance of the
[30:38] Speaker 3: nuclear industry to the hydrogen industry? And clear I think
[30:44] Speaker 3: you're in particular actually said in that March testimony that
[30:48] Speaker 3: you would actually favor exceptions from additionality for nuclear power plants.
[30:54] Speaker 2: Could you explain the reasoning behind that.
[30:57] Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think you brought up the point, which is,
[31:01] Speaker 5: if it is making it so that an asset is
[31:05] Speaker 5: not going into retirement, then this is a firm based load,
[31:09] Speaker 5: zero carbon source. And whereas if you are not adding
[31:16] Speaker 5: new renewables to a grid, from our view, that is cannibalizing.
[31:22] Speaker 5: We're adding massive demand by plugging an electrolyizer into a grid,
[31:27] Speaker 5: and we are not adding more zero carbon assets to
[31:31] Speaker 5: that grid. What's going to happen, in turn, is that
[31:34] Speaker 5: it's going to fuel more fossil fuel generation to then
[31:38] Speaker 5: feed that load.
[31:39] Speaker 4: So we can't. We need to be creating.
[31:42] Speaker 5: A more a decarbonized grid, but also a more resilient grid.
[31:49] Speaker 3: And nuclear additionality exceptions help that. Sorry, and exceptions for
[31:55] Speaker 3: nuclear from from additionality help help if it.
[31:58] Speaker 5: Keeps yes, then if it keeps that asset from going
[32:00] Speaker 5: into retirement.
[32:01] Speaker 2: Okay, Kathleen say you are going to say something.
[32:04] Speaker 10: Yeah, I think that's right, and I think the Treasury
[32:06] Speaker 10: suggested as much in the proposed role. So we'll see
[32:09] Speaker 10: what that translates into into in terms of flexibility in
[32:12] Speaker 10: the final world. What we've said is, you know, if
[32:15] Speaker 10: you're causing a station to seek a second license renewal,
[32:20] Speaker 10: in other words, approval from the government to run for
[32:23] Speaker 10: another twenty years, and that is sort of in the
[32:26] Speaker 10: same time vicinity as the contract with the hydrogen customer
[32:29] Speaker 10: that should qualify. There's also a suggestion that there'd be
[32:32] Speaker 10: some you know, potential phase in or you know, if
[32:36] Speaker 10: you look at what the EIA says, not what we say,
[32:38] Speaker 10: but the EIA says about what will happen when this
[32:41] Speaker 10: forty five ye credit expires, we will see nuclear retirements.
[32:46] Speaker 10: They estimate that's twenty percent of the fleet, so you
[32:48] Speaker 10: get up a twenty percent exemption something like that. Ten percent,
[32:51] Speaker 10: those are all in the mix. But your question was
[32:56] Speaker 10: is nuclear important to hydrogen? And I think that is
[33:00] Speaker 10: true because and it's why it was explicit in the
[33:03] Speaker 10: statute that nuclear existing nuclear can make hydrogen is because
[33:07] Speaker 10: it is operating twenty four to seven and that is
[33:10] Speaker 10: the way to get the most efficiency out of your electoralizer,
[33:13] Speaker 10: to have a constant sorts of power at the power
[33:15] Speaker 10: quality that you need that runs ninety five percent of
[33:19] Speaker 10: the time. So it's you know, you don't want to
[33:22] Speaker 10: take the cheap stoption off the table right out of
[33:25] Speaker 10: the bat and that's essentially what we've done with this guidance.
[33:29] Speaker 7: So we also publicly common and put into our testament
[33:33] Speaker 7: testimony exemptions for nuclear We may never use nuclear electrons.
[33:40] Speaker 6: We may, but right now we don't.
[33:42] Speaker 7: We don't mean intention to, but we think it's important
[33:46] Speaker 7: because it goes back to my initial argument. I hope
[33:48] Speaker 7: they have electoralizers, really big ones that every nuclear plant
[33:52] Speaker 7: they have. Why, because then someone has to produce more electoralizers.
[33:55] Speaker 7: The more you produce economy as a manufacturer, the price
[33:58] Speaker 7: goes down.
[33:58] Speaker 6: They tect. Somebody invests in advanced membrane technology.
[34:01] Speaker 7: Everything that pulls and creates demand for all the bits
[34:05] Speaker 7: and pieces that make it is good for the entire industry.
[34:08] Speaker 6: Right, and I finished. I have one more point.
[34:11] Speaker 7: I don't buy into blue why because I don't think
[34:13] Speaker 7: the future to a decarbonized world is the pathway has
[34:16] Speaker 7: methane underneath it. But at this point I'm not arguing
[34:19] Speaker 7: incident because again I want everybody to be successful. At
[34:23] Speaker 7: the end of the day, the market's going to decide
[34:26] Speaker 7: what they want to buy. Right, And that's another piece
[34:29] Speaker 7: to the incrementality thing. The idea that we should have
[34:33] Speaker 7: tax policy allocating a scarce resource to me, is nuts, right,
[34:39] Speaker 7: because I go back to my argument, why is this
[34:41] Speaker 7: the only industry that has to bring their own Everybody
[34:44] Speaker 7: who wants to buy it should be as to do
[34:46] Speaker 7: the same thing. And then what you do You have
[34:48] Speaker 7: a market because we'll compete. My view is, if I
[34:50] Speaker 7: can buy a green electron and I can pay the
[34:52] Speaker 7: price for it, that must be the highest value for it,
[34:54] Speaker 7: and otherwise somebody would ask to pay more. Let markets decide.
[34:58] Speaker 7: But the bottom line here, we're getting overly focused on
[35:02] Speaker 7: these little bits and pieces of policy of tax policy
[35:05] Speaker 7: and rulemaking.
[35:06] Speaker 6: When we're trying to build an industry.
[35:08] Speaker 7: Remember the administration's goal one dollar kilogram by twenty thirty.
[35:12] Speaker 7: There is nothing in this rule making proposed rule making
[35:16] Speaker 7: that will get us there.
[35:18] Speaker 3: Yeah, So that actually leads us to the final part
[35:23] Speaker 3: of this discussion. I think it's fitting that we have
[35:26] Speaker 3: only nine out of forty minutes left and we're talking
[35:28] Speaker 3: about the most important topic because that's how it seems
[35:31] Speaker 3: to work throughout the whole discussion around hydrogen, which is
[35:34] Speaker 3: demand for hydrogen. So my team believes that BNF that
[35:39] Speaker 3: the world and the US needs demand side incentives. So
[35:43] Speaker 3: for somebody to actually want to buy the hydrogen that
[35:46] Speaker 3: you guys produce. But the tax credits, which we just
[35:49] Speaker 3: spent thirty minutes talking about, they are worth one hundred
[35:52] Speaker 3: billion dollars and they're all for the producers. And the
[35:55] Speaker 3: US does have a demand side incentive being developed right now,
[35:59] Speaker 3: but that's a one billion dollar incentive, So we're talking
[36:01] Speaker 3: one to one hundred ratio possibly for the demand side,
[36:05] Speaker 3: which is very different from Europe La right. Europe has
[36:09] Speaker 3: the subsidies, it has the carbon prices, it has the
[36:11] Speaker 3: quotas and the mandates, so lots of demand side incentives
[36:14] Speaker 3: going on over there. So, as someone who just came
[36:17] Speaker 3: to US from Europe, should the US be doing more
[36:19] Speaker 3: on supporting the demand side or incentivizing the demand side
[36:22] Speaker 3: in order to get the industry going, creating an industry
[36:25] Speaker 3: like Andy's saying, So.
[36:27] Speaker 9: First of all, coming from the European perspective, everybody in
[36:31] Speaker 9: Europe has been talking about the IRA as a game
[36:33] Speaker 9: changer and as actually you know, an initiative that has
[36:37] Speaker 9: drawn a lot of you know, investments towards the US,
[36:41] Speaker 9: and I think it's a great initiative and it's really
[36:44] Speaker 9: trying to move the needle now I come from Europe
[36:47] Speaker 9: and based in Copenhagen, and Europe is I think the
[36:50] Speaker 9: best in class for mandates.
[36:53] Speaker 8: So for the famous stick, we are very good at that.
[36:56] Speaker 9: Now and we also have subsidies. But you know, it's
[37:00] Speaker 9: much more complex to get subsidies in Europe than to
[37:03] Speaker 9: get text credit through the IRA. And we do as
[37:06] Speaker 9: well have some experience because we are looking at a
[37:09] Speaker 9: US site for our electoralizer production as we speak, and
[37:13] Speaker 9: we realize that, you know, the tremendous difference in complexity
[37:17] Speaker 9: in going through this discussion. But back to you to
[37:20] Speaker 9: your question. I mean when we talk to our customers
[37:23] Speaker 9: in the in the US and we have a very
[37:25] Speaker 9: broad pipeline of projects here in the region driven by
[37:30] Speaker 9: the IRA, and they really blossomed as soon as the
[37:33] Speaker 9: IRA was was published.
[37:36] Speaker 8: It's two things.
[37:37] Speaker 9: It's certainty for the incentives, clarity and long term sustainability
[37:42] Speaker 9: of the incentives. And the other side, because it's text
[37:46] Speaker 9: credit and it's when you produce, is that you have
[37:48] Speaker 9: a demand and the demand at the moment is not
[37:51] Speaker 9: clear at all, and actually there's no driver in the
[37:54] Speaker 9: US in North America that would you know, really incentivize them.
[37:58] Speaker 9: And then as you say, the one billion from the
[38:01] Speaker 9: taken from the hydrogen hub.
[38:03] Speaker 8: It's a good idea, but it's a very timey thing.
[38:06] Speaker 9: So actually US and the future US producers would be
[38:10] Speaker 9: looking at Europe or at Northeast Asia, Japan and Korea
[38:15] Speaker 9: to actually export. And I think, you know, if we
[38:19] Speaker 9: want to make this successful. It's great that Europe is
[38:22] Speaker 9: doing this, and you know it will drive demand, it
[38:25] Speaker 9: will impose.
[38:26] Speaker 8: A competitive issue on.
[38:28] Speaker 9: The European producers, but US should also think about how
[38:33] Speaker 9: to really deploy demand to make this a success.
[38:37] Speaker 2: Thank you to our panelists.
[38:38] Speaker 3: I think it's clear that the forty five V credit
[38:40] Speaker 3: is a very very hot debate. I think no matter
[38:44] Speaker 3: how it's going to pan out, the US is going
[38:47] Speaker 3: to become a leader on low carbon hydrogen. And it's
[38:51] Speaker 3: clear that our panelist companies are going to be at
[38:53] Speaker 3: the forefront of it all.
[38:54] Speaker 2: So thank you very much.
[38:55] Speaker 11: Thank you to our panelists and Native the Day everyone.
[39:07] Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by Cam Gray
[39:10] Speaker 1: with production assistance from Kamala Shelling. Bloomberg NIF is a
[39:14] Speaker 1: service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. This
[39:17] Speaker 1: recording does not constitute nor should it be construed as
[39:20] Speaker 1: investment advice, investment recommendations, or a recommendation as to an
[39:24] Speaker 1: investment or other strategy. Bloomberg ANIF should not be considered
[39:27] Speaker 1: as information sufficient upon which to base an investment decision.
[39:31] Speaker 1: Neither Bloomberg Finance LP nor any of its affiliates makes
[39:34] Speaker 1: any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness
[39:37] Speaker 1: of the information contained in this recording, and any liability
[39:40] Speaker 1: as a result of this recording is expressly disclaimed.

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