# Introducing: Mind of a Serial Killer

An episode of [Morbidology](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1463979546), 24 Oct 2024, 21 min.

Audio: https://prefix.up.audio/s/dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/s.gum.fm/s-610c47a4222ada0024acb2d8/pscrb.fm/rss/p/prfx.byspotify.com/e/tracking.swap.fm/track/2IMk17EdnEqyRhJTIpIU/claritaspod.com/measure/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/62393869/morbidology_feed_drop_mind_of_a_serial_killer.mp3

What makes a serial killer? Mind of a Serial Killer takes you deep into the twisted minds of history’s most notorious serial killers. Every Monday, hosts Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Tristin Engels, a Clinical and Forensic Psychologist, combines gripping true crime storytelling with expert psychological analysis to answer the question - what makes a serial killer? From Jeffrey Dahmer to Ted Bundy, explore not only their chilling crimes but the dark psychology behind them. Follow Mind of a Serial Killer wherever you get your podcasts! Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/morbidology--3527306/support.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Hey, it's Emily. If you're enjoying my podcast Morbidology, then
[0:03] Speaker 1: you'll love the new true crime podcast Mind of a
[0:06] Speaker 1: Serial Killer from Jeffrey Dahmer to Ted Bundy to the Nightstalker.
[0:10] Speaker 1: Mind of a Serial Killer takes you deep into the
[0:12] Speaker 1: chilling minds of history's most terrifying murderers. With expert analysis
[0:18] Speaker 1: from licensed psychologists doctor Tristan Angels, discover what drove the
[0:22] Speaker 1: world's most notorious serial killers to commit the horrific crimes.
[0:27] Speaker 1: Check like this special preview This is crime House.
[0:41] Speaker 2: Everyone knows the saying what doesn't kill us makes us stronger,
[0:47] Speaker 2: but for people who suffer from painful trauma, it takes
[0:51] Speaker 2: a lot of work to get to that point. Trauma,
[0:55] Speaker 2: especially when it's experienced at a young age, plays a
[0:58] Speaker 2: major role in shaping who we are, what we do,
[1:02] Speaker 2: and why we do it. Some people are able to
[1:06] Speaker 2: overcome that trauma and use their painful experiences to become
[1:11] Speaker 2: a better, stronger person, but for others it can have
[1:15] Speaker 2: the opposite effect. No matter what we do to try
[1:20] Speaker 2: to escape it, our personal traumas stay with us forever,
[1:25] Speaker 2: for better or for worse. The human mind is fascinating.
[1:42] Speaker 2: It controls how we think, how we feel, how we love,
[1:47] Speaker 2: and how we hate, and sometimes the mind drives us
[1:51] Speaker 2: to do something truly unspeakable. When that happens, people wonder
[1:56] Speaker 2: how could someone do such a thing. Well, on this show,
[2:01] Speaker 2: that's what we're going to try and answer. This is
[2:04] Speaker 2: Mind of a serial Killer, a crime House original. Every Monday,
[2:08] Speaker 2: we'll be taking deep dives into the minds of history's
[2:12] Speaker 2: most notorious serial killers and violent offenders. At crime House.
[2:17] Speaker 2: We want to express our gratitude to you, our community,
[2:21] Speaker 2: for making this possible. Please support us by rating, reviewing,
[2:25] Speaker 2: and following Mind of a Serial Killer wherever you get
[2:28] Speaker 2: your podcasts. Your feedback truly matters, and for ad free
[2:33] Speaker 2: and early access to Mind of a Serial Killer plus
[2:37] Speaker 2: exciting bonus content, subscribe to crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts.
[2:42] Speaker 2: Subscribe now for instant access to all four episodes of
[2:46] Speaker 2: our limited series on Jeffrey Dahmer. I'm Vanessa Richardson and
[2:51] Speaker 2: I'm a self professed true crime fanatic. I've covered serial
[2:55] Speaker 2: killers and other violent crimes for years, but it's not
[2:59] Speaker 2: the gory detail or grisly violence that draws me into
[3:02] Speaker 2: these stories. It's the people. And we're doing this show
[3:06] Speaker 2: not to explore what they did, but why, And thankfully
[3:11] Speaker 2: I have an expert by my side to help.
[3:13] Speaker 3: I'm doctor Tristan Engels. I'm a licensed clinical forensic psychologist,
[3:18] Speaker 3: and my fascination, if you want to call it that,
[3:20] Speaker 3: with true crime actually runs in my family. My grandfather
[3:24] Speaker 3: was the chief microanalyst of the Chicago Crime Lab. He
[3:27] Speaker 3: was also a Chicago Police sergeant, and he's the co
[3:31] Speaker 3: inventor of the Vitulo evidence collection kit, which we widely
[3:35] Speaker 3: know as a rape kit. I was always inspired by
[3:39] Speaker 3: his work, and because of that, I dedicated my life
[3:43] Speaker 3: and my career to understand violent serial and sexual offenders
[3:48] Speaker 3: in order to help lower the risk of further crimes,
[3:50] Speaker 3: which we know as recidivism. And as Vanessa takes you
[3:54] Speaker 3: through our subject stories, I'll be here helping her deep
[3:57] Speaker 3: dive into these killers' minds as we tried to understand
[4:01] Speaker 3: how someone could do such horrible things.
[4:04] Speaker 2: So today we're going to start with the first of
[4:07] Speaker 2: four episodes on Jeffrey Dahmer, perhaps the world's most famous
[4:11] Speaker 2: serial killer, who was responsible for murdering at least seventeen
[4:15] Speaker 2: people in Wisconsin and Ohio from nineteen seventy eight to
[4:19] Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one. By now you probably know the broad
[4:22] Speaker 2: strokes of his story. Death, dismemberment, sexual assault, cannibalism. It's
[4:28] Speaker 2: safe to say he was probably one of the worst
[4:31] Speaker 2: people to ever live, and that's putting it lightly.
[4:35] Speaker 3: And in these episodes we'll be going over all of that,
[4:38] Speaker 3: But Vanessa and I will be doing something that very
[4:40] Speaker 3: few people have tried before, and that's to understand his mind.
[4:44] Speaker 2: Mm hmm. In today's episode, will be exploring Jeffrey Dahmer's
[4:47] Speaker 2: early life and asking the question what makes a serial killer?
[5:02] Speaker 2: Like so many of us, Jeffrey Dahmer's story really began
[5:05] Speaker 2: with his parents, and before we get to know him,
[5:08] Speaker 2: we have to understand who they were, their hopes, their dreams,
[5:12] Speaker 2: how they saw the world, and how that affected their son.
[5:16] Speaker 2: Because Jeffrey Dahmer's parents played a huge role in his
[5:20] Speaker 2: early life, and from what I can tell, they were
[5:23] Speaker 2: not suited for parenthood. Does upbringing have an outsized effect
[5:27] Speaker 2: on shaping who a person becomes?
[5:29] Speaker 3: Yes, and the nature versus nurture debate has been in
[5:33] Speaker 3: existence forever and it will continue to do so because
[5:36] Speaker 3: when it comes to psychology, there's so many variables to consider.
[5:40] Speaker 3: For example, milestones could be met or not met based
[5:42] Speaker 3: on trauma, not because of developmental delays. Oh but one
[5:47] Speaker 3: thing to really consider too is parenting styles. The parenting
[5:50] Speaker 3: style really does have an effect on a child's growth
[5:54] Speaker 3: and how they interact interpersonally later in life. Our caregivers
[5:59] Speaker 3: are the ones that teach us how to self soothe,
[6:02] Speaker 3: how to value ourselves. And of course, if we don't
[6:05] Speaker 3: know how to self soothe or value ourselves, how do
[6:08] Speaker 3: we know how to do that with others? So the
[6:10] Speaker 3: attachment style and the parenting style also are a very
[6:13] Speaker 3: significant factor when it comes to interprernal conflict and a
[6:17] Speaker 3: child's development.
[6:20] Speaker 2: Jeffrey's parents were married on August twenty second, nineteen fifty nine,
[6:24] Speaker 2: when they were both twenty three. His dad, Lionel, was
[6:28] Speaker 2: studying to get a master's degree in chemistry and put
[6:31] Speaker 2: his young career ahead of everything, including his new wife,
[6:35] Speaker 2: and that did not sit well with Jeffrey's mom, Joyce.
[6:40] Speaker 2: When she was a child, Joyce was neglected by her
[6:42] Speaker 2: alcoholic father, and as an adult she refused to experience
[6:47] Speaker 2: those same feelings again. So anytime she thought Lionel wasn't
[6:51] Speaker 2: paying enough attention to her, which was pretty much always
[6:55] Speaker 2: Joyce wasn't afraid to tell him. As you might imagine,
[7:00] Speaker 2: this combination didn't exactly lend itself to marital bliss. Lionel
[7:04] Speaker 2: and Joyce were at each other's throats pretty much from
[7:07] Speaker 2: the moment they were married, but that didn't keep them
[7:10] Speaker 2: from starting a family. Within just a few days of
[7:14] Speaker 2: being married, Joyce was pregnant, and nine months later, on
[7:20] Speaker 2: May twenty first, nineteen sixty, Jeffrey Dahmer was born. For
[7:26] Speaker 2: a while, Jeffrey's birth papered over a lot of Lionel
[7:29] Speaker 2: and Joyce's problems, but it wouldn't last. Before too long,
[7:33] Speaker 2: they were fighting all the time again. Lionel threw himself
[7:37] Speaker 2: into his studies and Joyce's emotional outbursts got even more intense.
[7:43] Speaker 2: When Jeffrey was two, they had to pick up their
[7:45] Speaker 2: lives and move from Milwaukee to ames, Iowa, so Lionel
[7:49] Speaker 2: could pursue a pH d in chemistry at Iowa State University.
[7:53] Speaker 2: This was their second move since Jeffrey was born. Joyce
[7:57] Speaker 2: had trouble adjusting to all the change, which led to
[8:00] Speaker 2: even more tension at home, but little Jeffrey seemed to
[8:03] Speaker 2: handle it all right. As a baby and toddler, he seemed,
[8:07] Speaker 2: for lack of a better word, normal, He hit all
[8:11] Speaker 2: his milestones and was by all accounts, a happy little kid.
[8:15] Speaker 2: But inside, was there something going on below the surface.
[8:19] Speaker 2: Was his parents' troubled relationship affecting him more than it seemed?
[8:23] Speaker 3: It definitely was, But I do want to hit back
[8:26] Speaker 3: on the milestone's comment and discuss what it is when
[8:30] Speaker 3: we're looking at milestones, we're looking at if a child
[8:33] Speaker 3: is crawling on time, walking on time, talking on time,
[8:37] Speaker 3: able to sit upright and engaging with their peers, if
[8:41] Speaker 3: they do not meet those milestones one or two, not
[8:44] Speaker 3: necessarily all we look into whether or not there is
[8:47] Speaker 3: a developmental disorder there an organic one in nature, such
[8:51] Speaker 3: as a cerebral palsy or autism spectrum disorder. However, autism
[8:56] Speaker 3: is a spectrum and some aspects of autism show up
[9:00] Speaker 3: in life, so I just want to make that clear.
[9:02] Speaker 3: But we're also looking if there was any prenatal injury.
[9:05] Speaker 3: So we know that Joyce has a family history of alcoholism,
[9:08] Speaker 3: she also struggled with her own substance abuse. Do we
[9:12] Speaker 3: know if she used while she was pregnant with Jeffrey.
[9:15] Speaker 3: That's what milestones help us with.
[9:18] Speaker 2: That's so fascinating. All of those things go into play.
[9:21] Speaker 2: So he was hitting all his milestones, but he was
[9:23] Speaker 2: in that environment that was so toxic.
[9:25] Speaker 3: Right, And that says a lot more about trauma and
[9:28] Speaker 3: the effects of interpernental conflict on a child. A lot
[9:32] Speaker 3: of research has been done about interpernal conflict over the years,
[9:36] Speaker 3: a lot. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of longitudinal
[9:39] Speaker 3: studies on this. But what we do know and what
[9:41] Speaker 3: we have seen is that children who have prolonged exposure
[9:45] Speaker 3: to interpernal conflict in the home are at a greater
[9:49] Speaker 3: risk of developing anger issues, depression, anxiety, and stress.
[9:55] Speaker 2: That absolutely makes sense. So whatever impact Jeffrey's parents find
[10:00] Speaker 2: fight had on him as a kid, he seemed to
[10:02] Speaker 2: find comfort in animals. When he was only eighteen months old,
[10:06] Speaker 2: he had a pet fish and a turtle, and after
[10:09] Speaker 2: they moved to Iowa, Jeffrey liked to feed a squirrel
[10:11] Speaker 2: that came to his windowsill. He named him Jiffy, and
[10:14] Speaker 2: according to Joyce, he was really kind and gentle with
[10:18] Speaker 2: all these animals. But at the same time he also
[10:21] Speaker 2: had a strange fascination with them that wasn't like what
[10:24] Speaker 2: most animal loving kids develop. At some point in nineteen
[10:29] Speaker 2: sixty four, when Jeffrey was four years old, he found
[10:32] Speaker 2: some old animal bones his father had cleared out from
[10:35] Speaker 2: the crawl space under their house. Right away, he was
[10:38] Speaker 2: drawn to them. He called them fiddlesticks. Of course, plenty
[10:42] Speaker 2: of kids think bones and skeletons are cool, but Jeffrey's
[10:46] Speaker 2: interests seemed to border on obsession. Now, whenever he played
[10:49] Speaker 2: with one of his many pets, he liked to hold
[10:52] Speaker 2: them and feel their bones, and, in what maybe the
[10:56] Speaker 2: first sign of the monster he would someday become, Jeffrey
[10:59] Speaker 2: liked to wonder if all these animals and their fiddlesticks
[11:04] Speaker 2: all looked the same on the inside. Around that same time,
[11:09] Speaker 2: Jeffrey had a traumatic experience with his own internal anatomy.
[11:13] Speaker 2: When he was four years old, he needed a double
[11:15] Speaker 2: hernia operation on his testicles. The experience would stay with
[11:19] Speaker 2: him for life. Much later on, after Jeffrey's murder spree
[11:24] Speaker 2: had ended and he was behind bars, he told psychologist
[11:28] Speaker 2: doctor Judith E. Becker that when he woke up from
[11:31] Speaker 2: the operation, he was in so much pain that he
[11:34] Speaker 2: thought his genitals had been removed. It definitely seems like
[11:38] Speaker 2: the sort of thing that could impact the trajectory of
[11:41] Speaker 2: his life. And I'm curious about his fascination with animals
[11:45] Speaker 2: and their anatomies as well. Isn't it a bit of
[11:47] Speaker 2: a running theme when it comes to serial killers and
[11:50] Speaker 2: animal cruelty.
[11:51] Speaker 3: It's definitely a pattern that we've seen with serial killers.
[11:54] Speaker 3: But I also don't want to further support the myth
[11:58] Speaker 3: that all children who have abused an animal become a
[12:01] Speaker 3: serial killer, because it's actually quite normal in some cases
[12:05] Speaker 3: where three to forty four percent of children have abused
[12:08] Speaker 3: an animal at some point. It's mostly because they're limit testing.
[12:11] Speaker 3: They don't know their boundaries, and usually once they learn
[12:15] Speaker 3: the extent of the harm that it can cause, they
[12:18] Speaker 3: correct that behavior.
[12:19] Speaker 2: That's fascinating. So the psychological impact of his surgery, how
[12:24] Speaker 2: does that plan to Jeffrey's psychology? That hernia operation when
[12:28] Speaker 2: he was so young. Is that powerful enough to mentally
[12:31] Speaker 2: harm someone like Jeffrey Dahmer so much that it could
[12:34] Speaker 2: explain how he could become such a monster.
[12:37] Speaker 3: I don't think the surgery itself is something that would
[12:41] Speaker 3: cause Dahmer to become a monster, because so many children
[12:44] Speaker 3: have had to undergo a surgery at some point in
[12:46] Speaker 3: their life and they did not grow up to become
[12:49] Speaker 3: anything like Dahmer. So I don't think it's the surgery itself. However,
[12:54] Speaker 3: did Dahmer know ahead of time what was going to happen?
[12:59] Speaker 3: He didn't exactly have the most comforting, nurturing parents. Did
[13:04] Speaker 3: they tell him what to expect? Did they have a conversation.
[13:08] Speaker 3: Did he know that he'd be spending the night in
[13:10] Speaker 3: a hospital? Can you imagine being his age right?
[13:13] Speaker 2: The communication there does not seem like it was there
[13:16] Speaker 2: at all.
[13:17] Speaker 3: And if you're waking up in a hospital and you
[13:19] Speaker 3: don't know that you're spending the time there, and you
[13:20] Speaker 3: feel abandoned, scarcared, you're out of your comfort zone, that
[13:25] Speaker 3: can definitely have a psychological impact.
[13:28] Speaker 2: That makes a lot of sense. So, through all of this,
[13:31] Speaker 2: and when Jeffrey finally did get back home, things were
[13:35] Speaker 2: getting even worse. By nineteen sixty six, so this would
[13:39] Speaker 2: be when Jeffrey was about six years old. His mom, Joyce,
[13:42] Speaker 2: was in really bad shape emotionally. She was a wreck
[13:46] Speaker 2: and was taking liberal doses of anti anxiety meds called
[13:49] Speaker 2: secondal and equinal. She was so careless with them that
[13:53] Speaker 2: she almost overdosed at one point. So most of the
[13:55] Speaker 2: time she was just in this sort of depressed, out
[13:58] Speaker 2: of it days, and whenever she was fully lucid, she
[14:02] Speaker 2: was on a razor's edge. On the rare occasions when
[14:06] Speaker 2: Jeff's dad, Lionel, was home, the two parents fought all
[14:10] Speaker 2: the time. It wasn't exactly a healthy environment to raise
[14:14] Speaker 2: a young child, as we've covered, and yet they were
[14:16] Speaker 2: determined to try. Of course, this is back in the
[14:19] Speaker 2: nineteen sixties and opinions on divorce were not the same
[14:22] Speaker 2: as they are today, so most couples in the Dahmer's
[14:25] Speaker 2: situation were probably trying to stick it out, too, But
[14:29] Speaker 2: Lionel and Joyce weren't just trying to stay together for
[14:31] Speaker 2: Jeffrey's sake. They were doubling down on their marriage because
[14:35] Speaker 2: around this time they made a conscious effort to try
[14:38] Speaker 2: for a second child. Whatever Jeffrey may have been feeling
[14:42] Speaker 2: on the inside, on the outside he seemed thrilled to
[14:46] Speaker 2: be getting a little sibling for maybe the first time ever.
[14:50] Speaker 2: He seemed to have a genuine connection with another person.
[14:53] Speaker 2: He would hold his head on Joyce's stomach and even
[14:56] Speaker 2: put his hand on it so the baby would know
[14:58] Speaker 2: he was there. Maybe Jeffrey was so excited because he
[15:02] Speaker 2: knew deep down that he wouldn't be alone in the
[15:06] Speaker 2: storm that was the Dahmer household anymore. He was desperate
[15:10] Speaker 2: to have a little brother to play with, and on
[15:12] Speaker 2: December eighteenth, nineteen sixty six, Jeffrey got his wish when
[15:17] Speaker 2: Joyce gave birth to a baby boy. He even had
[15:21] Speaker 2: the honor of choosing the name David. And for a while,
[15:27] Speaker 2: everything honestly seemed to be going pretty great. Lionel finally
[15:30] Speaker 2: finished his school and got a job as a chemist
[15:33] Speaker 2: with a company in Ohio, and after a couple of
[15:35] Speaker 2: years of bouncing between rental houses, Lionel and Joyce finally
[15:40] Speaker 2: bought the house of their dreams in a small Ohio
[15:43] Speaker 2: town called Bath. After living in six different houses since
[15:48] Speaker 2: they were married, it seemed like the family was finally settled.
[15:52] Speaker 2: The new house was a big ranch style home located
[15:56] Speaker 2: on nearly two acres of secluded wooded land. Joyce got
[16:00] Speaker 2: the peace and quiet she'd been yearning for, and Jeffrey
[16:03] Speaker 2: had his very own private forest to explore. He even
[16:07] Speaker 2: started making friends with some of the local boys, going
[16:09] Speaker 2: out to play with them in the woods, and sitting
[16:12] Speaker 2: with them at school. It seemed like the Dahmer family's
[16:15] Speaker 2: troubles were behind them, but nothing lasts forever. Sometime around
[16:22] Speaker 2: nineteen seventy so again, when Jeffrey was about ten years old,
[16:26] Speaker 2: Joyce's health hit the proverbial wall. She spent most of
[16:30] Speaker 2: the day in bed, and by this point was taking
[16:32] Speaker 2: up to eight anti anxiety pills per day, on top
[16:36] Speaker 2: of other medication like laxatives and sleeping pills. Eventually, it
[16:40] Speaker 2: got so bad that she had to go to the hospital,
[16:43] Speaker 2: where she spent a month in a psychiatric ward. It
[16:48] Speaker 2: was too much for young Jeffrey to handle. For his
[16:51] Speaker 2: entire life, his mother's mental health had been a dark
[16:54] Speaker 2: storm with only brief moments of sunlight. He'd never seen
[16:58] Speaker 2: her truly happy, and for that he may have blamed himself.
[17:03] Speaker 2: At least that's what Brian Masters, the author of The
[17:06] Speaker 2: Shrine of Jeffrey Dahmer, believes.
[17:08] Speaker 3: I think also with interparental conflict, a lot of times
[17:11] Speaker 3: the conflict is regarding how to parent the child, and
[17:16] Speaker 3: so from a child's perspective, they're looking at it as
[17:18] Speaker 3: if they're the cause of the problem. They're not able
[17:22] Speaker 3: to really see that the problem exists beyond them. And
[17:27] Speaker 3: because there probably was a lot of projection of blame
[17:30] Speaker 3: happening in the household as to why Joyce was going
[17:33] Speaker 3: through all of these struggles, it sounds like she was
[17:35] Speaker 3: abusing her medication and those classification of medications are highly
[17:40] Speaker 3: addictive and they could be deadly if they're dependent on
[17:45] Speaker 3: it and.
[17:45] Speaker 2: Withdrawal without detox.
[17:47] Speaker 3: So there's a lot going on there that I think
[17:50] Speaker 3: as a child seeing.
[17:53] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, what kind of effect does that have
[17:55] Speaker 2: on a child to see your mom who has struggled
[17:58] Speaker 2: your entire life, you know, to go the hospital and
[18:00] Speaker 2: you think it's because of.
[18:01] Speaker 3: You, Right, It's hard not to see that as a
[18:05] Speaker 3: child unless you have parents who are nurturing, who are authoritative.
[18:09] Speaker 3: When they sit you down, they're warm, they tell you, hey,
[18:13] Speaker 3: this is we're arguing about this, but you are not
[18:15] Speaker 3: to blame. That doesn't happen in the Dahmer household.
[18:19] Speaker 2: Not at all. There's no communication there at all. And
[18:22] Speaker 2: what kind of long term psychological effects do you think
[18:25] Speaker 2: that has on a child who believes they are the
[18:28] Speaker 2: ones responsible for their parents' difficulties, especially in this case
[18:31] Speaker 2: Jeffrey Dahmer's parents being so volatile.
[18:34] Speaker 3: I think in Jeffrey Dahmer's case specifically, there's a lot
[18:37] Speaker 3: of insecure attachment happening, a lot of broken attachments with
[18:41] Speaker 3: his mother being in and out of psychiatric facilities or hospitals.
[18:44] Speaker 3: I think that alone can create a fear of rejection,
[18:48] Speaker 3: a fear of abandonment that when Jeffrey becomes an adult,
[18:52] Speaker 3: will probably be the forefront of all of his interpersonal connections.
[18:57] Speaker 3: This fear of rejection and abandonment.
[19:00] Speaker 2: So expand on that a little bit. What would that
[19:02] Speaker 2: mean for Jeffrey as an adult.
[19:04] Speaker 3: Well, since Jeffrey was constantly seeking and needing nurturance in
[19:09] Speaker 3: his home, but was not receiving it from his parents
[19:13] Speaker 3: and instead was often the center of their conflict. As
[19:17] Speaker 3: an adult, Jeffrey is going to be very afraid of
[19:21] Speaker 3: rejection and abandonment. He's going to be a lot needier
[19:25] Speaker 3: in his personal relationships because he's still seeking that need
[19:29] Speaker 3: of nurturance that he did not get. But with Jeffrey,
[19:32] Speaker 3: what he's learned is that any relationship comes with the
[19:36] Speaker 3: potential of abandonment and rejection, and I think that plays
[19:40] Speaker 3: out not only in his home growing up, but also
[19:42] Speaker 3: with his peers. And the rejection of your peers on
[19:45] Speaker 3: top of the rejection from your parents really leads to
[19:48] Speaker 3: some adverse interpersonal patterns when you're an adult.
[19:53] Speaker 2: Absolutely, that's all he's seen. So obviously, even though Joyce's
[19:58] Speaker 2: struggles definitely weren't Jeffrey's fault, he may have clearly believed
[20:02] Speaker 2: they were, but at least immediately, he didn't lash out
[20:06] Speaker 2: or lose control. Instead, he retreated into himself, cutting himself
[20:11] Speaker 2: off from the world. He felt like the less he
[20:14] Speaker 2: interacted with the world, the fewer problems he'd cause, which
[20:18] Speaker 2: speaks to exactly what you just said, doctor Engles. So
[20:20] Speaker 2: Jeffrey became completely detached, refusing to truly engage with anyone
[20:25] Speaker 2: or anything around him. He was unmoored from society, with
[20:29] Speaker 2: nobody to bring him back into it, and from that
[20:32] Speaker 2: point on, any light or life Jeffrey Dahmer showed was
[20:37] Speaker 2: completely and utterly extinguished.
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[20:51] Speaker 1: original NOI new episodees drop every Monday. Again, that is
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