# Trump and Murdoch: The enemies who need each other

An episode of [7am](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1461999702), 22 Sep 2026, 16 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/62723a1f-3e96-4fc4-882c-b25e0181da4d/a6bc451d-4113-4b07-8e70-b4cd004efc01/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=70f29d90-2a63-48aa-bf8f-b25e0181da70

One of the defining themes of Donald Trump's presidencies has been his war against the media. Last week, he banned journalists from three media outlets from the White House, saying he’s had enough of the negative stories about him. This week, those outlets sued him over the ban. And just last year he proved no one’s off limits, taking media mogul Rupert Murdoch to court in a ten-billion-dollar lawsuit that’s still playing out – all over another story he didn’t much like. Today, journalist and author Gabriel Sherman on the battle of the titans between Donald Trump and Rupert Murdoch – and who really holds the power in this twisted transactional relationship. If you enjoy 7am, the best way you can support us is by making a contribution at 7ampodcast.com.au/support. Socials: Stay in touch with us on Instagram Guest: Journalist and author Gabriel Sherman Photo: EPA/Samuel Corum and Kevin Lamarque via AP See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: I'm Ruby Jones, and you're listening to 7am. One of
[0:10] Speaker 1: the defining themes of Donald Trump's presidencies has been his
[0:13] Speaker 1: war against the media. Last week, he banned journalists from
[0:17] Speaker 1: three media outlets from the White House, saying he's had
[0:20] Speaker 1: enough of the negative stories about him.
[0:23] Speaker 2: This week, those outlets sued him over the ban. And
[0:27] Speaker 2: just last year, he proved.
[0:28] Speaker 1: No-one's off-limits... taking media mogul Rupert Murdoch to court in
[0:32] Speaker 1: a $ 10 billion lawsuit that's still playing out, all over
[0:36] Speaker 1: another story he didn't much like. Today, journalist and author
[0:40] Speaker 1: Gabriel Sherman on the battle of the titans between Donald
[0:43] Speaker 1: Trump and Rupert Murdoch and who really holds the power
[0:46] Speaker 1: in this twisted transactional relationship.
[0:53] Speaker 2: It's Wednesday, September 23rd.
[1:00] Speaker 1: So, Gabrielle, let's begin by going back to last July
[1:04] Speaker 1: when Donald Trump learns that the Wall Street Journal is
[1:07] Speaker 1: about to publish a story about.
[1:10] Speaker 2: A birthday letter that he sent to Jeffrey Epstein. Tell
[1:14] Speaker 2: me what happens.
[1:15] Speaker 3: Well, Trump has a very open channel to Rupert Murdoch.
[1:18] Speaker 3: You know, they speak, I would say, if not several
[1:21] Speaker 3: times a week, at least once a week. And like
[1:23] Speaker 3: Trump always does with the press when there's something he
[1:25] Speaker 3: doesn't like, he sort of bullies and threatens. And he
[1:28] Speaker 3: called Rupert and said, said, this is ridiculous. You can't
[1:32] Speaker 3: publish this. And, you know, Rupert entertained the call, spoke
[1:36] Speaker 3: privately with Emma Tucker, the editor in chief of The
[1:39] Speaker 3: Wall Street Journal. And lo and behold, the piece promptly ran.
[1:44] Speaker 4: The note's existence initially reported by The Wall Street Journal
[1:47] Speaker 4: in July. The drawing shows the outline of a woman's torso,
[1:50] Speaker 4: breasts and hips with a message that reads, in part,
[1:54] Speaker 4: we have certain things in common, Jeffrey.
[1:56] Speaker 3: Trump denies, obviously, that he had any role in Jeffrey
[1:59] Speaker 3: Epstein's illegal abuse of young women.
[2:02] Speaker 4: Before the closing words, happy birthday and may every day
[2:06] Speaker 4: be another wonderful secret. At the bottom, a familiar scrawled signature.
[2:10] Speaker 3: But of course, the letter itself shows that they had
[2:13] Speaker 3: a very close personal relationship. And the letter itself also
[2:18] Speaker 3: contradicted everything Trump had said about how he barely knew Epstein,
[2:22] Speaker 3: that he had a falling out with Epstein. So regardless,
[2:25] Speaker 3: it was a very scandalous story for the Trump White House.
[2:28] Speaker 1: And so we know that Trump tried to stop the
[2:31] Speaker 1: story before it was even published.
[2:34] Speaker 2: Failing that, what does he do once it is out
[2:37] Speaker 2: in the open?
[2:38] Speaker 3: Again, this is straight out of the Donald Trump playbook.
[2:41] Speaker 5: But I'm not a drawing person.
[2:43] Speaker 3: I don't do drawings of women.
[2:45] Speaker 2: That I can tell you.
[2:46] Speaker 3: He first threatens to sue. And in this case, he
[2:48] Speaker 3: did sue.
[2:49] Speaker 4: Tonight, President Donald Trump is suing the Wall Street Journal's
[2:52] Speaker 4: publisher and its leader, Rupert Murdoch, for $ 10 billion.
[2:57] Speaker 3: By all accounts, the journal stands by its story. And
[3:01] Speaker 3: most experts in the U.S. believe the lawsuit is completely
[3:05] Speaker 3: without merit. But again, this is more of as much
[3:08] Speaker 3: of a public relations stunt as it is a legal
[3:11] Speaker 3: one for Trump.
[3:12] Speaker 1: And we know that Trump has this direct line to
[3:14] Speaker 1: Murdoch and has tried to tell him before publication that
[3:18] Speaker 1: it's fake, the letter.
[3:20] Speaker 2: Tell me a bit about.
[3:21] Speaker 1: How personal this got between.
[3:25] Speaker 2: Trump and Murdoch.
[3:26] Speaker 3: You know, it's hard to say because both of these
[3:29] Speaker 3: men are so incredibly transactional. They can be enemies one
[3:34] Speaker 3: day and allies the next.
[3:36] Speaker 5: By the way, we're just unrelated, but we have two
[3:38] Speaker 5: of the most talented people in the world. the legendary
[3:42] Speaker 5: Rupert Murdoch and Larry Ellison.
[3:44] Speaker 3: So Trump invited Rupert to the Oval Office after he
[3:48] Speaker 3: had filed the lawsuit against him. And in fact, Trump
[3:51] Speaker 3: had talked to Rupert Murdoch about being a part of
[3:56] Speaker 3: the group of investors that were going to buy the
[3:59] Speaker 3: Chinese stake in TikTok when the White House demanded that
[4:03] Speaker 3: TikTok US be owned by American companies. And so obviously,
[4:07] Speaker 3: on the one hand, Trump was furious and filed a lawsuit.
[4:10] Speaker 3: And on the other hand, He still knows that Rupert
[4:13] Speaker 3: Murdoch is a valuable ally. And so I think it's
[4:16] Speaker 3: a bit of a mixed picture. This isn't a case
[4:18] Speaker 3: where Trump has decided to just go to war with
[4:23] Speaker 3: Rupert Murdoch and his media empire because on some level
[4:26] Speaker 3: he still knows they're valuable.
[4:28] Speaker 2: Yeah, as you say, the relationship, it's always been transactional.
[4:32] Speaker 1: And Trump and Murdoch have never particularly trusted each other.
[4:35] Speaker 2: They've fallen out in the past. Does this fight feel
[4:39] Speaker 2: different to you, though?
[4:40] Speaker 3: On the one hand, yes, this fight does feel different
[4:42] Speaker 3: because a $ 10 billion lawsuit is still a major escalation
[4:46] Speaker 3: of a feud. On the other hand, Trump attacks Fox
[4:50] Speaker 3: News all the time whenever there's a poll that he
[4:53] Speaker 3: doesn't like or a headline he doesn't like. And so
[4:57] Speaker 3: this relationship has been filled with conflict from the moment
[5:01] Speaker 3: Trump came down the golden escalator in 2015 to start
[5:05] Speaker 3: his presidential campaign. And yet, The relationship has endured. So
[5:11] Speaker 3: I don't see this as being part of a falling
[5:14] Speaker 3: out that will continue as long as they are useful
[5:16] Speaker 3: to each other.
[5:17] Speaker 1: And from Rupert Murdoch's perspective, there was a time when
[5:22] Speaker 1: he and Fox News, they could turn on a Republican
[5:25] Speaker 1: politician and that it would be devastating for that particular politician.
[5:30] Speaker 2: That balance of power, though, does seem different with Trump.
[5:32] Speaker 2: Tell me about that.
[5:34] Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a fascinating question. And I think it's one
[5:36] Speaker 3: of the most revealing questions aspects of American politics in
[5:40] Speaker 3: the age of Trump. Basically, Fox News could make a
[5:43] Speaker 3: Republican politician. Fox News was famous for having the, quote,
[5:48] Speaker 3: Fox News primary, where every Republican candidate would go on
[5:52] Speaker 3: Fox News and essentially audition for then Fox News chief
[5:57] Speaker 3: Roger Ailes.
[5:59] Speaker 6: And tonight on a special edition of Hannity, we are
[6:01] Speaker 6: kicking off the 2012 campaign with our very own Hannity primaries. Now,
[6:05] Speaker 6: throughout this campaign, we'll give each candidate a half hour
[6:08] Speaker 6: right here on the show to share his or her
[6:10] Speaker 6: views with.
[6:10] Speaker 1: You, our audience.
[6:11] Speaker 3: And what happened when Donald Trump entered politics is that
[6:15] Speaker 3: Trump's fans were so loyal to Trump himself that when
[6:21] Speaker 3: Trump and Fox News became enemies of each other, whenever
[6:24] Speaker 3: there was open conflict between them, the Fox News audience sided.
[6:29] Speaker 3: with Donald Trump. And it's a bit of a Frankenstein story.
[6:32] Speaker 3: And I've reported extensively about this. Rupert Murdoch benefited from
[6:39] Speaker 3: class antagonism and wedge issues and rage and cultural war
[6:44] Speaker 3: and all the things that Fox News built itself on.
[6:47] Speaker 3: And yet he kind of lost control of that audience
[6:49] Speaker 3: because Donald Trump was even more effective at stoking those
[6:53] Speaker 3: same passions. And so we're now at the stage where
[6:57] Speaker 3: Donald Trump is effectively the editor-in-chief of Fox News because
[7:02] Speaker 3: the audience of Fox cares more about Donald Trump than
[7:05] Speaker 3: they do about the fortunes of Rupert Murdoch.
[7:16] Speaker 1: Still to come, who really has the upper hand in
[7:18] Speaker 1: this rivalry? Gabrielle, we have seen Rupert Murdoch try to
[7:28] Speaker 1: move the Republican Party beyond Trump in the past. If
[7:32] Speaker 1: we go back to the 2020 election, tell me about
[7:35] Speaker 1: how that played out.
[7:37] Speaker 3: Yes, you're talking about the famous Dominion voting machines lawsuit
[7:41] Speaker 3: against Fox News. I think that was one of the
[7:44] Speaker 3: most revealing episodes in the entire history of Fox News.
[7:48] Speaker 5: The Fox News decision desk can now project that former
[7:51] Speaker 5: Vice President Joe Biden will win Pennsylvania and Nevada, putting
[7:56] Speaker 5: him over the 270 electoral votes he needs to become
[8:00] Speaker 5: the 46th president of the United States.
[8:03] Speaker 3: In the days after the 2020 election, when Fox News
[8:06] Speaker 3: had reported, that Joe Biden had won the election. Trump
[8:10] Speaker 3: was calling the election fake. If you count the legal votes,
[8:15] Speaker 3: I easily win.
[8:17] Speaker 5: If you count the illegal votes, they can try to
[8:21] Speaker 5: steal the election from us.
[8:24] Speaker 3: If you count the votes... And the Fox News ratings
[8:26] Speaker 3: started to go down and down and down, and you
[8:29] Speaker 3: saw panic and fear in the private emails between Rupert Murdoch,
[8:33] Speaker 3: his son Lachlan Murdoch, Fox News CEO Suzanne Scott's, They
[8:37] Speaker 3: were emailing and texting each other about how the Fox
[8:40] Speaker 3: News audience was moving to new channels called Newsmax or
[8:44] Speaker 3: One American News. And they were terrified that the Fox
[8:47] Speaker 3: News audience was rejecting Fox. And so what did they do?
[8:51] Speaker 3: They totally reversed course. And they started to embrace the
[8:55] Speaker 3: Trump lie that the election was stolen.
[8:58] Speaker 6: Nobody liked Dominion voting systems.
[9:00] Speaker 3: Nobody.
[9:01] Speaker 6: Why we would use a system that everybody agreed sucked
[9:04] Speaker 6: or had problems is beyond me.
[9:06] Speaker 3: And that led to the $ 787 million settlement that Fox
[9:08] Speaker 3: had to reach. because they had defamed Dominion voting machines.
[9:15] Speaker 4: We are following some breaking news in Dominion's defamation lawsuit
[9:18] Speaker 4: against Fox News. The judge in the case just announced
[9:21] Speaker 4: the two sides have reached a settlement.
[9:23] Speaker 3: Fox has admitted to telling lies about Dominion that caused
[9:27] Speaker 3: enormous damage to my company, our employees, and the customers
[9:31] Speaker 3: that we serve. Nothing can ever make up for that.
[9:35] Speaker 3: And so those emails to me are the most like
[9:37] Speaker 3: vivid examples of how from Rupert Murdoch on down, the
[9:41] Speaker 3: senior Fox News leadership realized that they were not in
[9:45] Speaker 3: control of their audience.
[9:46] Speaker 1: And so what lessons do you think Murdoch took from
[9:49] Speaker 1: that episode?
[9:50] Speaker 3: You know, journalism is about telling the audience what happened,
[9:55] Speaker 3: I mean, in the classical sense. And I think the
[9:57] Speaker 3: lesson is that the Fox News audience doesn't want the truth.
[10:00] Speaker 3: They want to hear what they want to hear. They
[10:02] Speaker 3: want to hear what helps their side. They want to
[10:05] Speaker 3: hear what confirms their version of reality. And telling the
[10:09] Speaker 3: Fox audience inconvenient things that conflict with their version of
[10:13] Speaker 3: reality actually makes them turn the channel off. And so
[10:17] Speaker 3: I think that showed Rupert that you can never get
[10:20] Speaker 3: too far away from whatever narrative Donald Trump is talking about.
[10:25] Speaker 3: But on the other hand, they have to be careful
[10:26] Speaker 3: about not repeating Trump's lies too much in a way
[10:30] Speaker 3: that would get them in renewed legal jeopardy like they
[10:33] Speaker 3: did with Dominion. So I think it's this kind of
[10:35] Speaker 3: balancing act that they're doing right now.
[10:38] Speaker 1: Mm hmm. OK, so if you look at this fight
[10:40] Speaker 1: that's playing out now, if Trump and Murdoch go to
[10:43] Speaker 1: war over Trump's connections to Epstein, who do you think
[10:48] Speaker 1: has the upper hand?
[10:50] Speaker 3: I think without question, Trump has the upper hand. You know,
[10:53] Speaker 3: look at Republicans who went to war with Trump over
[10:57] Speaker 3: Jeffrey Epstein. Marjorie Taylor Greene is one. Thomas Massey is another.
[11:02] Speaker 3: These are both Congress people. Well, Marjorie Taylor Greene, in
[11:06] Speaker 3: her case, quit Congress. And Thomas Massey lost his reelection
[11:10] Speaker 3: and is no longer serving. So, you know, those are
[11:14] Speaker 3: two recent examples of people who tried to go to
[11:17] Speaker 3: war with Trump over Epstein and fought for more disclosure.
[11:22] Speaker 3: And the voters rejected them and sided with Trump. So
[11:26] Speaker 3: I think that's, again, another reason that Rupert should be
[11:28] Speaker 3: cautious about getting Fox too far on the other side
[11:32] Speaker 3: of Trump.
[11:33] Speaker 1: On the other hand, though, Rupert Murdoch has run a
[11:36] Speaker 1: media empire for decades and Trump is nearing the second
[11:40] Speaker 1: half of his second term and is decreasing in popularity
[11:44] Speaker 1: among the American public.
[11:45] Speaker 3: No, that's a great point. That will be, you know,
[11:48] Speaker 3: I think a dynamic that we will see continue to
[11:51] Speaker 3: become even more pronounced, you know, as Trump becomes a
[11:54] Speaker 3: lame duck and his support wanes, you know, whether Fox
[11:59] Speaker 3: News or tries to break with Trump and tries to
[12:02] Speaker 3: position a new candidate for the future is definitely something
[12:08] Speaker 3: that is very possible. But again, I will point out
[12:11] Speaker 3: that this happened before. After the 2020 election, Trump lost
[12:16] Speaker 3: the election. He was under indictment. He was in exile
[12:20] Speaker 3: in Mar-a-Lago, completely out of politics. And Rupert made a
[12:26] Speaker 3: very strong effort to get Florida Governor Ron DeSantis kind
[12:32] Speaker 3: of elevated and promoted as the future of the Republican Party.
[12:36] Speaker 3: And famously, Rupert Murdoch's tabloid, The New York Post, splashed
[12:40] Speaker 3: a whole cover photograph of DeSantis. The cover of the New.
[12:44] Speaker 6: York Post says, young GOP star DeSantis rumps to victory
[12:48] Speaker 6: in Florida.
[12:49] Speaker 3: DeSantis is the future.
[12:51] Speaker 7: I think Governor DeSantis is the biggest single winner of
[12:53] Speaker 7: the night, and he will almost certainly become the rallying
[12:57] Speaker 7: point for everybody in the Republican Party who wants to
[13:00] Speaker 7: move beyond President Trump.
[13:02] Speaker 3: If there is a Trump-DeSantis contest, it will be between
[13:05] Speaker 3: forward-looking landslide winner and backward-looking former president who cannot accept
[13:11] Speaker 3: his loss. And DeSantis promptly, you know, lost the Republican
[13:14] Speaker 3: primary as soon as Trump got back into politics. So,
[13:17] Speaker 3: you know, we've seen Rupert try to turn the page
[13:20] Speaker 3: before when Trump is kind of on his back foot,
[13:23] Speaker 3: and it hasn't worked. But again, I think as you
[13:26] Speaker 3: point out, this time is slightly different because this is
[13:29] Speaker 3: Trump's last term. The Iran war has made him uniquely
[13:33] Speaker 3: unpopular amongst even Republicans. So it's something definitely I'm going
[13:38] Speaker 3: to be watching.
[13:39] Speaker 7: Yeah.
[13:40] Speaker 2: Okay.
[13:40] Speaker 1: And so just finally, how do you see the Murdoch-Trump
[13:43] Speaker 1: relationship playing out post-presidency? Do you think that Murdoch will
[13:47] Speaker 1: continue to give Trump a platform?
[13:49] Speaker 2: Where does this end?
[13:51] Speaker 3: Good question. Rupert's 95 now, and Trump is the oldest
[13:56] Speaker 3: American president in history. So I don't think either of
[13:59] Speaker 3: them have long futures in public life. But no, I
[14:02] Speaker 3: don't think Fox will continue to be a megaphone for
[14:06] Speaker 3: Trump to the degree it has been once he's out
[14:08] Speaker 3: of office. I think they will be looking for another
[14:12] Speaker 3: candidate to back, you know, and to me, I think
[14:15] Speaker 3: one of the most closely watched things that I will
[14:17] Speaker 3: be following is to see how Fox either embraces or
[14:21] Speaker 3: does not embrace Vice President J.D. Vance. Vice President J.D. Vance,
[14:27] Speaker 3: in many ways, is trying to position himself as the future,
[14:31] Speaker 3: as the heir of the MAGA movement. And part of
[14:34] Speaker 3: that positioning of being the heir to the MAGA movement
[14:37] Speaker 3: will be getting the Murdoch empire behind him. And so far,
[14:42] Speaker 3: they have not fully done that. The bigger question to
[14:46] Speaker 3: me is who Murdoch will kind of get behind next.
[14:51] Speaker 2: Well, Gabe, thank you so much for your time.
[14:53] Speaker 1: Great.
[14:53] Speaker 3: It's good to be with you.
[15:01] Speaker 1: And Gabriel Sherman will appear at the Sydney Opera House
[15:03] Speaker 1: on Sunday 4th of October as part of Curious. Also
[15:19] Speaker 1: in the news, former police officer Beau Lamar Condon has
[15:22] Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty to the murder of Sydney couple Jessie.
[15:25] Speaker 2: Baird and Luke Davies.
[15:27] Speaker 1: Claiming he acted in self-defence then panicked and started cleaning
[15:30] Speaker 1: up the crime scene. The prosecution say Lamar Condon became
[15:34] Speaker 1: obsessed with Baird after a brief relationship and planned the
[15:37] Speaker 1: murder in early 2024. But the defence claim the fatal
[15:41] Speaker 1: shots were fired during a tussle that broke out when
[15:43] Speaker 1: Lamar Condon went to the house to pick up some belongings.
[15:48] Speaker 1: And the White House has been forced to promote its
[15:50] Speaker 1: own feed online, branding it Trump TV, in an effort
[15:54] Speaker 1: to ensure President Trump's public appearances are covered. It's after
[15:57] Speaker 1: the major US TV outlets agreed to suspend their video
[16:00] Speaker 1: coverage of Trump in solidarity after several journalists were banned
[16:04] Speaker 1: by the administration.
[16:05] Speaker 2: I'm Rumi Jones. This is 7am.
[16:08] Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.

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