# The manmade origins of bird flu and the mutations dangerous to humans

An episode of [7am](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1461999702), 25 Aug 2026, 15 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/62723a1f-3e96-4fc4-882c-b25e0181da4d/2cf62fa6-4d07-4772-8744-b4b100710cce/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=70f29d90-2a63-48aa-bf8f-b25e0181da70

Bird flu has reached a new milestone, crossing over to infect and kill a seal in South Australia. It marks a new phase of the outbreak, and has sparked fears for many endangered wildlife species, which face the possibility of extinction. So how does the way we farm, eat, and live make us vulnerable to viruses like this? And could humans be at risk with the next mutation? Today, journalist and author of Sentinel: when diseases spread between animals and humans, Michael Dulaney on the root cause of the virus - and the future of animal pandemics in our times. If you enjoy 7am, the best way you can support us is by making a contribution at 7ampodcast.com.au/support. Socials: Stay in touch with us on Instagram Guest: Journalist and author Michael Dulaney Photo: AAP Image/Darren England See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: Bird flu has reached a new milestone, crossing over to
[0:04] Speaker 1: infect and kill a seal in South Australia. It marks
[0:08] Speaker 1: a new phase of the outbreak and has sparked fears
[0:10] Speaker 1: for many endangered wildlife species which face the possibility of extinction.
[0:16] Speaker 1: So how does the way we farm, eat and live
[0:18] Speaker 1: make us vulnerable to viruses like this? And could humans
[0:22] Speaker 1: be at risk with the next mutation? I'm Ruby Jones
[0:28] Speaker 1: and you're listening to seven Am Today journalist and author
[0:32] Speaker 1: of Sentinel When diseases spread between animals and humans Michael
[0:37] Speaker 1: Delaney on the root cause of the virus and the
[0:40] Speaker 1: future of animal pandemics in our times. It's Wednesday, August
[0:46] Speaker 1: twenty six. So, Michael, you've spent the last six years
[0:54] Speaker 1: or so researching what happens when viruses jump between species
[0:59] Speaker 1: and between animals and humans. So when it comes to
[1:03] Speaker 1: this space, tell me about where bird flu where h
[1:07] Speaker 1: by then one where it sits in terms of just
[1:10] Speaker 1: how destructive we've seen it be over the last few years.
[1:13] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of the most devastating diseases in wildlife
[1:17] Speaker 2: in modern history. The scale and the spread of this
[1:21] Speaker 2: disease has been quite extraordinary to see, so it's traveled
[1:25] Speaker 2: around the world at this point, it's a rival in
[1:27] Speaker 2: Australia signals the fact that it's basically landed on every
[1:30] Speaker 2: continent in every part of the world in just five years,
[1:34] Speaker 2: and it's done that by infecting hundreds of bird species globally,
[1:39] Speaker 2: in addition to dozens of mammals, and everywhere it's landed
[1:43] Speaker 2: around the world, it's resulted in mass mortalities in certain species.
[1:47] Speaker 2: So a good example would be in Argentina in twenty
[1:51] Speaker 2: twenty three, there was a mass death of elephant seals
[1:54] Speaker 2: where something like ninety five percent of the pups that
[1:58] Speaker 2: year died from this virus, and there's been cases like
[2:01] Speaker 2: that around the world in those last five years. It's
[2:04] Speaker 2: effectively a panzerotic, which is a way of saying that
[2:08] Speaker 2: it's basically a pandemic in the animal kingdom. And that's
[2:12] Speaker 2: the reason why everyone's so alarmed about its arrival in
[2:15] Speaker 2: Australia is because it really signals catastrophic impacts on wildlife here.
[2:20] Speaker 2: I mean, for me, you know, it doesn't just come
[2:23] Speaker 2: out of nowhere, and its origins often get obscured. The
[2:26] Speaker 2: way people have been talking about it after its arrival here.
[2:29] Speaker 2: It's sort of I think it leads people to think
[2:31] Speaker 2: that it's just a naturally occurring virus that just happened
[2:34] Speaker 2: to arrive here, But it has complex origins.
[2:36] Speaker 1: Well, let's dig into that. I mean, I know that
[2:38] Speaker 1: you've traced the beginnings of many different zoonotic outbreaks in
[2:42] Speaker 1: many different parts of the world. But tell me about
[2:45] Speaker 1: bird flow. About what we know about how and where
[2:48] Speaker 1: and when exactly it started.
[2:50] Speaker 2: Yeah, So, this strain of the virus H five N one,
[2:54] Speaker 2: it emerged in mass produced poultry in China in nineteen
[2:58] Speaker 2: ninety six. It caused a series of alarming outbreaks and
[3:02] Speaker 2: transmission events, particularly in Hong Kong.
[3:04] Speaker 3: Good Evening researchers say they still have not confirmed the
[3:07] Speaker 3: H five and one virus can be transmitted between humans.
[3:12] Speaker 3: So far, they've been able to verify the deadly strain
[3:14] Speaker 3: of flu virus is passed on from chickens to people.
[3:18] Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety seven, Hong Kong authorities made the order
[3:21] Speaker 2: to essentially cull all of the birds in Hong Kong.
[3:28] Speaker 3: So in view of its happening in the poetry, we
[3:33] Speaker 3: are afraid quote and unquote were afreid.
[3:36] Speaker 2: And the virus is circulated in the poultry system ever since.
[3:40] Speaker 2: Basically globally, it's never been eradicated from poultry farming. So
[3:44] Speaker 2: there were outbreaks in the early two thousands in Thailand
[3:47] Speaker 2: and in Vietnam, and a few human infections and deaths.
[3:51] Speaker 1: Since the second outbreak earlier this year, the spread of
[3:54] Speaker 1: the disease has been alarming. Literally hundreds of farms have
[3:59] Speaker 1: been hit, more than one million chickens and other poultry destroyed.
[4:03] Speaker 2: And then periodically after that, H five N one would
[4:07] Speaker 2: you know, pop up and it would cause these fill
[4:09] Speaker 2: over events in birds, but always related with poultry farming. Essentially,
[4:13] Speaker 2: France has begun a widespread color of the duck population,
[4:17] Speaker 2: and three of its regions most affected.
[4:20] Speaker 3: Burial is calling Pennsylvania the epicenter of the bird flu
[4:24] Speaker 3: outbreak in the country.
[4:26] Speaker 4: Until last week, this was a thriving chicken farm in
[4:29] Speaker 4: Vietnam's Long Jam province that nine hundred of this farmer's
[4:33] Speaker 4: chickens contracted the highly contagious bird flu. Under orders from
[4:38] Speaker 4: the agriculture industry, they all had to be killed and burned.
[4:42] Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me a bit more about that, about the
[4:44] Speaker 1: conditions of poultry farming that make it the sort of
[4:47] Speaker 1: place where a virus like this circulates and continues to
[4:52] Speaker 1: kind of pop up over years and years.
[4:54] Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, if you think about the way that
[4:56] Speaker 2: poultry farming is intensified, we have industrials systems now where
[5:01] Speaker 2: there's hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of birds in
[5:03] Speaker 2: some places kept in really close proximity to each other
[5:08] Speaker 2: in tightly packed sheds. They're quite genetically similar, these birds,
[5:12] Speaker 2: So it creates these evolutionary conditions where a virus like
[5:16] Speaker 2: influenza can constantly mutate and infect new bodies and continue
[5:21] Speaker 2: circulating in the environment. Essentially that we've created. It's a
[5:24] Speaker 2: story about human intervention in animal farming which is causing
[5:27] Speaker 2: these outbreaks.
[5:29] Speaker 1: And so, as you said, across the world, the virus
[5:32] Speaker 1: has spread from birds to mammals and in rare cases
[5:35] Speaker 1: to humans as well. So tell me what we know
[5:37] Speaker 1: about why that does happen and how serious it is.
[5:41] Speaker 2: Yeah, most, but not all, of the infections in humans
[5:45] Speaker 2: are in people who are close to poultry. You know,
[5:48] Speaker 2: they're handling birds, so they're exposed to like high amounts
[5:52] Speaker 2: of the virus basically because they're poultry workers who might
[5:56] Speaker 2: be cleaning up the aftermath of bird flu coming in,
[5:59] Speaker 2: so that creates the conditions where it might jump into
[6:03] Speaker 2: a human being.
[6:04] Speaker 5: The first confirmed human death of the H five N
[6:07] Speaker 5: five strain of avian influenza, commonly known as bird flu,
[6:11] Speaker 5: has been reported in the US state of Washington. That's
[6:14] Speaker 5: raised concerns in Taiwan about further human transmissions. Taiwanese health
[6:19] Speaker 5: officials say people should stay careful, but that the risk
[6:22] Speaker 5: of human to human spread remains low.
[6:25] Speaker 2: So far, that has never led to human to human spread.
[6:28] Speaker 2: So someone might be infected by H five N one
[6:31] Speaker 2: bird flu and then the virus will burn out essentially,
[6:35] Speaker 2: or you know that they might die or they will
[6:37] Speaker 2: overcome the infection and that's the end of it. But
[6:41] Speaker 2: because there's so many instances of this virus reaching poultry
[6:45] Speaker 2: sheds and poultry farms around the world in the last
[6:48] Speaker 2: thirty years since it's been circulating, you have lots of
[6:50] Speaker 2: cases where you might get these one off spill over events.
[6:54] Speaker 2: And the alarming thing about those is that you know,
[6:57] Speaker 2: the mortality rate is quite high, like I think it's
[6:59] Speaker 2: still around fifty percent historically, so that there's been a
[7:03] Speaker 2: few thousand cases of infection of human infection of bird
[7:07] Speaker 2: flu and there's a fifty percent mortality rate in those.
[7:10] Speaker 2: The key thing is, though, that there's no human to
[7:13] Speaker 2: human spread, so there's no transmission between people. It's not
[7:16] Speaker 2: like a seasonal flu where people are getting infected from
[7:19] Speaker 2: other people. But it is still something to take really seriously,
[7:24] Speaker 2: even in those environments like poultry farming or other places
[7:27] Speaker 2: where people are exposed to a lot of infected birds
[7:31] Speaker 2: or animals.
[7:33] Speaker 1: So that would be the tipping point for a human
[7:35] Speaker 1: pandemic risk if it mutated and became something that was
[7:39] Speaker 1: transmitted between humans.
[7:41] Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, you know, the risk is still low.
[7:44] Speaker 2: Scientists say that the risk of that happening is not high,
[7:49] Speaker 2: but you can see why the concern is there, Like
[7:52] Speaker 2: the vigilance needs to be there because you know, if
[7:55] Speaker 2: that were to happen, it would obviously be quite catastrophic.
[7:58] Speaker 2: If human human transmission were to happen would be a
[8:01] Speaker 2: it would be a really serious event.
[8:07] Speaker 1: Still to come. How modern day food production could trigger
[8:10] Speaker 1: the next pandemic, Michael. We learned this week that H
[8:25] Speaker 1: five N one had jumped from seabirds in South Australia
[8:28] Speaker 1: to at least one seal, which died. Tell me about
[8:32] Speaker 1: the risk here for seals in Australia.
[8:34] Speaker 2: Yeah, so that is another milestone in the journey of
[8:39] Speaker 2: this virus in Australia. So it's the first mammal that's
[8:42] Speaker 2: been infected by the virus, and researchers are particularly concerned
[8:46] Speaker 2: about the endangered Australian sea lion, which has most of
[8:50] Speaker 2: its population in South Australia. That's where there was recently
[8:55] Speaker 2: one of the first mass mortalities in birds.
[8:58] Speaker 6: Well, this second grim discovery is what authorities have been
[9:02] Speaker 6: giving those warnings about and gives us an indication about
[9:05] Speaker 6: just how fast these cases can spread through seal populations.
[9:09] Speaker 2: There's certain properties of seals and sea lions that make
[9:12] Speaker 2: them particularly vulnerable to as mammals, to getting this virus,
[9:16] Speaker 2: so they congregate in large colonies, so there's tightly packed
[9:20] Speaker 2: populations of these animals. They're often around infected marine birds
[9:24] Speaker 2: and seabirds that are carrying this virus around. They're also
[9:28] Speaker 2: scavenging at times on dead birds that have the virus
[9:31] Speaker 2: in them. And because of these endangered populations, there's real
[9:35] Speaker 2: concern about the future of the species.
[9:37] Speaker 6: Is fatal as we've already seen off the California coast
[9:40] Speaker 6: and in Herd Island off Antarctica, where thirteen thousand elephant
[9:44] Speaker 6: seals died of the virus.
[9:46] Speaker 2: The federal government has put out a list of at
[9:49] Speaker 2: risk species in Australia and they're estimating that one in
[9:53] Speaker 2: five species in this country matt bird and mammal species,
[9:56] Speaker 2: so twenty percent are at risks right now from this
[9:59] Speaker 2: virus varies. There's five bird species that are at extreme
[10:03] Speaker 2: risk because they're a small population. Maybe they only survive
[10:08] Speaker 2: in one or two places in Australia and if bird
[10:10] Speaker 2: flu gets in there, there's a real possibility that they
[10:13] Speaker 2: could go extinct. But then there's other beloved species I
[10:16] Speaker 2: guess like Tasmanian devils is on that list. Black swans
[10:19] Speaker 2: are considered to be pretty vulnerable to this virus, so
[10:23] Speaker 2: you can see they're from like a one in five number.
[10:26] Speaker 2: That's a real swath of this country's wildlife basically.
[10:30] Speaker 1: And Australia has had a lot of time to prepare
[10:33] Speaker 1: because we're the last place for the virus to arrive.
[10:35] Speaker 1: What do you make of the response so far?
[10:39] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there has been a level of attention
[10:42] Speaker 2: from the federal government and from state wildlife authorities and
[10:46] Speaker 2: things have been put in place over the last few
[10:48] Speaker 2: years as this virus has been sort of marching around
[10:51] Speaker 2: the world. As you say, like essentially we've had two
[10:55] Speaker 2: three four years where we've known this is a really
[10:57] Speaker 2: catastrophic disease and we've had time to prepare. The thing
[11:00] Speaker 2: for me is we've seen recent reports in Portland around there.
[11:04] Speaker 2: There was an ABC report last week that looked at
[11:07] Speaker 2: how local residents are essentially having to go out on
[11:10] Speaker 2: the beach and pick up dead and dying birds.
[11:14] Speaker 6: I've just counted twenty four did birds and the same
[11:19] Speaker 6: thing on Sunday we went for a walk on this
[11:21] Speaker 6: beach the same number.
[11:22] Speaker 4: To see as many birds as we did this morning.
[11:24] Speaker 5: It was just like what do we do here.
[11:26] Speaker 2: Bird Life Australia and a few other wildlife organizations have
[11:29] Speaker 2: been calling for a two hundred million dollar funding package
[11:32] Speaker 2: to sort of help species recover after this virus goes through,
[11:36] Speaker 2: to create resilience in wildlife populations in addition to what's
[11:40] Speaker 2: already been done. So you can see there's a real
[11:43] Speaker 2: need there for quite widespread response from state and federal authorities.
[11:50] Speaker 1: And so if bird flu came into existence because of
[11:53] Speaker 1: the conditions of modern day food production, So trying to
[11:57] Speaker 1: get maximum profit out of poultry farming. What does that
[12:00] Speaker 1: say to you about the future of zynotic diseases and
[12:03] Speaker 1: the rate that we might see new and different strains emerge.
[12:08] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, in the course of my research in
[12:10] Speaker 2: writing the book, it became pretty clear to me that
[12:13] Speaker 2: we have done little to address the root cause of
[12:15] Speaker 2: these diseases spilling over. So this virus has been circulating
[12:19] Speaker 2: for thirty years. It's been causing devastating outbreaks in poultry.
[12:23] Speaker 2: There's been hundreds of millions of chickens and other farmed
[12:26] Speaker 2: birds that have been culled over the years. It continually
[12:30] Speaker 2: circulates in that system and it spills over and causes
[12:34] Speaker 2: these devastating outbreaks. And until we do something to address
[12:37] Speaker 2: those root causes, the threat is not going to go away.
[12:41] Speaker 2: There's things we can do now in this current outbreak
[12:44] Speaker 2: in Australia, and there's things we absolutely should be doing
[12:46] Speaker 2: and should be aware of. It needs an urgent response,
[12:50] Speaker 2: but it also needs people to be aware of where
[12:52] Speaker 2: it comes from and why, because without doing that, we
[12:56] Speaker 2: will continue to see outbreaks like it in bird flu
[13:00] Speaker 2: and other diseases that come from animals, and the key
[13:04] Speaker 2: thing there is the way that humans impact the environment
[13:08] Speaker 2: is causing more of these diseases to spill over than
[13:11] Speaker 2: ever before, and birdflu is a really prominent example of that.
[13:17] Speaker 1: Well, Michael, thank you so much for your time.
[13:20] Speaker 2: Thank you.
[13:36] Speaker 1: Also in the news, disgraced celebrity agent Ralph Carr has
[13:40] Speaker 1: been sentenced to six years jail for raping a woman
[13:42] Speaker 1: in his Melbourne home in twenty twenty three. Carr, who
[13:46] Speaker 1: had managed Australia's top singers as well as Richmond AFL
[13:49] Speaker 1: Great Dustin Muttin, cried as the sentence was handed down.
[13:53] Speaker 1: The case has attracted lots of attention after Car's identity
[13:56] Speaker 1: was initially suppressed to protect his mental health, and AI
[14:02] Speaker 1: generated songs have been banned from the Australian Music Charts.
[14:06] Speaker 1: ARIA has updated its rules so that tracks using generative
[14:09] Speaker 1: AI will only be eligible if they're substantially human made.
[14:13] Speaker 1: It comes after a song produced with AI became the
[14:16] Speaker 1: most played track on Australian radio, reaching number four on
[14:20] Speaker 1: the ARIA charts last month. I'm Ruby Jones, this is
[14:24] Speaker 1: seven AM. Thanks for listening.

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