# Paul Keating's unfinished argument for an independent Australia

An episode of [7am](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1461999702), 4 Sep 2026, 19 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/62723a1f-3e96-4fc4-882c-b25e0181da4d/bcc05c2c-44b0-4ac9-9ca0-b4bb005894c5/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=70f29d90-2a63-48aa-bf8f-b25e0181da70

Paul Keating has been out of office for thirty years. But he’s never really left the national conversation. Keating wanted Australia to find its security in Asia, not from it, and to stop defining itself through bigger powers in the Anglosphere. That vision now sits uneasily alongside AUKUS, a more powerful China, and an Australia tied ever more closely to the United States. Today, historian and author of Grand Ambition James Curran, on Keating’s argument for a more independent Australia – and why it continues to challenge the modern Labor Party. If you enjoy 7am, the best way you can support us is by making a contribution at 7ampodcast.com.au/support. Socials: Stay in touch with us on Instagram Guest: Historian and author of Grand Ambition, James Curran Photo: AAP Image/Darren England See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to 7am. Paul Keating
[0:09] Speaker 1: has been out of office for 30 years, but he's
[0:12] Speaker 1: never really left the national conversation. Keating wanted Australia to
[0:16] Speaker 1: find its security in Asia, not from it, and to
[0:19] Speaker 1: stop defining itself through bigger powers in the Anglosphere. That
[0:24] Speaker 1: vision now sits uneasily alongside AUKUS, a more powerful China
[0:28] Speaker 1: and an Australia tied even more closely to the United States. Today,
[0:33] Speaker 1: historian and author of Grand Ambition, James Curran, examines Keating's
[0:37] Speaker 1: argument for a more independent Australia and why it continues
[0:41] Speaker 1: to challenge the modern Labor Party. It's Saturday, September 5th.
[0:56] Speaker 2: We are in, for the first time in our history,
[0:59] Speaker 2: located in the region of the fastest growth in the world.
[1:02] Speaker 2: And we've been set up now. We are set up
[1:05] Speaker 2: now as we've never been set up before to be
[1:08] Speaker 2: in it, to exploit it, to be part of it.
[1:10] Speaker 2: It offers tremendous, tremendous opportunities for Australians.
[1:14] Speaker 1: James, you argue that Paul Keating's global vision for Australia
[1:17] Speaker 1: and our place in the world is more relevant than ever.
[1:21] Speaker 1: So to start with, can you remind us of what
[1:23] Speaker 1: that vision was?
[1:25] Speaker 3: So, I mean, in essence, I think the Keating vision
[1:27] Speaker 3: was a reconciled republic finding its security in, not from, Asia.
[1:32] Speaker 3: That was the Keating vision in a nutshell.
[1:35] Speaker 2: I said to the Australian people, we've turned the corner.
[1:39] Speaker 2: Can I say now, after the election, let me repeat it.
[1:42] Speaker 2: We have turned the corner. The growth is coming through.
[1:45] Speaker 2: We will see ourselves as a sophisticated trading country in Asia,
[1:50] Speaker 2: and we've got to do it in a way where
[1:52] Speaker 2: everybody's got.
[1:53] Speaker 4: A part of it.
[1:53] Speaker 3: Where everyone Keating was thinking about the way in which
[1:57] Speaker 3: Australia's strategic environment would change fundamentally, right?
[2:02] Speaker 4: He saw China coming.
[2:04] Speaker 3: He worried that America might lose that sense of the
[2:07] Speaker 3: importance of an economic footing in Asia, as well as
[2:10] Speaker 3: a security footing.
[2:11] Speaker 4: And we're seeing that now.
[2:13] Speaker 3: But essentially, it was an integrated vision that sort of
[2:16] Speaker 3: married a view about Australia's constitutional future, being independent of Britain,
[2:22] Speaker 3: with atoning for some of the way in which the
[2:25] Speaker 3: Indigenous peoples had been treated in the past with a
[2:29] Speaker 3: sense of belonging and connecting to Asia in a new way,
[2:32] Speaker 3: in a way that they hadn't been before.
[2:34] Speaker 1: And so how far has Australia diverged from that vision
[2:37] Speaker 1: since Keating left office?
[2:39] Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, I mean, he surely could
[2:41] Speaker 3: not have known in 1996, before that election with John Howard,
[2:45] Speaker 3: he gave a speech at the Press Club, Keating. It
[2:47] Speaker 3: was his sort of last address as Prime Minister, really,
[2:50] Speaker 3: And he said that when you change the government, you
[2:52] Speaker 3: change the country.
[2:54] Speaker 2: The risk in this election, I think for Australia, is
[2:57] Speaker 2: that the fire will go out. The crucible that that
[3:00] Speaker 2: cabinet has provided to generate this country, to take its
[3:03] Speaker 2: place in the world as a modern industrial country, will go.
[3:06] Speaker 3: I think a lot of the momentum went out of
[3:08] Speaker 3: that vision at that point. I mean, there is a
[3:10] Speaker 3: legitimate question as to whether Australians were ready for Paul
[3:12] Speaker 3: Keating's vision at this time. But if we think about
[3:15] Speaker 3: the way in which John Howard, I mean, yes, he
[3:17] Speaker 3: held the Constitutional Convention on the Republic, but we know
[3:20] Speaker 3: that he was a constitutional monarchist. And I mean, the
[3:23] Speaker 3: sort of the air went out of the Republican balloon
[3:25] Speaker 3: at that point.
[3:26] Speaker 2: They wanted to stick with the Menzian model. You know,
[3:31] Speaker 2: here we were, good little Anglophiles, waving our little royal flag,
[3:35] Speaker 2: which had the Union Jack in the corner, all bowing
[3:38] Speaker 2: to the Queen. And our future was guaranteed by the
[3:41] Speaker 2: United States Navy and we don't do anything else.
[3:44] Speaker 3: When Howard spoke about Asia, he spoke about practical regionalism.
[3:49] Speaker 3: You know, he wasn't interested in the kind of effort
[3:52] Speaker 3: that Keating had been making to try and help Australians
[3:55] Speaker 3: understand these countries and cultures of the region in a
[3:59] Speaker 3: way that they hadn't before. And of course, from that
[4:02] Speaker 3: moment too, you really see the imperative of the conservative
[4:07] Speaker 3: governments and their Labor successes, to be fair, has been
[4:11] Speaker 3: to wrap Australia's strategic policy ever more tightly around the
[4:14] Speaker 3: American alliance. Keating supported the alliance, but he wanted Australia
[4:19] Speaker 3: to be, as he put it, independent in ways that
[4:22] Speaker 3: we've never been. He didn't want Australia sort of leaving
[4:25] Speaker 3: the orbit of one great power, Britain, and just substituting it.
[4:29] Speaker 4: With ready acquiescence to American empire.
[4:33] Speaker 3: And so I think that was a real sliding doors
[4:35] Speaker 3: moment for the country and the momentum went out of it,
[4:38] Speaker 3: but some of it's coming back.
[4:40] Speaker 1: So Keating's been out of office now for decades and
[4:43] Speaker 1: a lot has changed since that time. How relevant are
[4:46] Speaker 1: the ideas of a prime minister from 30 years ago
[4:49] Speaker 1: at a time where everything is shifting, where China is
[4:52] Speaker 1: more powerful and militarized and the world order is being
[4:54] Speaker 1: turned on its head thanks to Donald Trump?
[4:56] Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Look, a very good question.
[5:00] Speaker 3: And this is often the criticism that he's made of
[5:02] Speaker 3: Keating and has been made by the current foreign minister,
[5:05] Speaker 3: Penny Wong, among others, that Keating was living in a
[5:07] Speaker 3: different time.
[5:08] Speaker 4: These were completely different circumstances. Great power rivalry is back
[5:13] Speaker 4: in a way that it.
[5:13] Speaker 3: Really wasn't in the early 1990s when he's dealing with
[5:17] Speaker 3: the end of the Cold War. You know, the superpowers
[5:19] Speaker 3: had turned the magnets off. as he put it when
[5:22] Speaker 3: he came into office. But look, Keating was looking ahead
[5:25] Speaker 3: to what the possibilities were for China upsetting the regional
[5:29] Speaker 3: balance of power. And his idea there was, well, look,
[5:32] Speaker 3: what we need to do is put a steel ring
[5:34] Speaker 3: fence across the top of the country, get closer to Indonesia,
[5:38] Speaker 3: so that the Chinese know that if they ever do
[5:40] Speaker 3: have some kind of designs on coming south, they've got
[5:44] Speaker 3: to deal with Indonesia at the same time. So I
[5:47] Speaker 3: think he was sort of really, in a way, quite
[5:49] Speaker 3: prescient in forecasting that there was going to be problems
[5:53] Speaker 3: coming down the track with the nature of American power,
[5:57] Speaker 3: but also with China's rise. Now, that's where the relevance is,
[6:01] Speaker 3: I think, that Keating was in many ways forecasting the
[6:04] Speaker 3: kind of turbulence that we're seeing now, and I think
[6:09] Speaker 3: warning against this excessive dependence on a great power.
[6:12] Speaker 4: I mean, Australia is.
[6:14] Speaker 3: you know, as we know, under Labor governments as well,
[6:17] Speaker 3: is so tightly woven itself into the American strategic web
[6:22] Speaker 3: in Asia that it's really sacrificed a lot of its
[6:26] Speaker 3: agency and its sovereignty.
[6:28] Speaker 1: For Keating, foreign policy wasn't just an aside from his
[6:31] Speaker 1: prime ministership, it was part of the vision that he
[6:33] Speaker 1: had for Australia as a whole around national identity and Now,
[6:38] Speaker 1: national identity is back at the centre of our politics.
[6:41] Speaker 1: There's Pauline Hanson's monoculture, Liberal Party President Tony Abbott going
[6:45] Speaker 1: on about Anglo-Celtic culture. Kedding was having these debates about
[6:50] Speaker 1: our British heritage, wasn't he? I mean, he even used
[6:52] Speaker 1: the word monoculture in a speech in 1996 about Pauline Hanson.
[6:57] Speaker 2: The great tragedy of the shamelessly regressive politics of Pauline
[7:01] Speaker 2: Hanson is not so much that it's rooted in ignorance
[7:04] Speaker 2: and prejudice and fear, though it is, Not so much
[7:07] Speaker 2: that it projects the ugly face of racism, though it does.
[7:11] Speaker 2: Not so much that it's dangerously divisive and deeply hurtful
[7:14] Speaker 2: to many of her fellow Australians, though it is. Not
[7:18] Speaker 2: even that it'll cripple our efforts to enmesh ourselves in
[7:21] Speaker 2: a region wherein lie the jobs and prosperity of future
[7:24] Speaker 2: generations of young Australians, though it will. The great tragedy
[7:29] Speaker 2: is it perpetuates a myth, a fantasy, a lie. The
[7:34] Speaker 2: myth of the monoculture the lie that we can retreat
[7:37] Speaker 2: to it.
[7:38] Speaker 1: I mean, that sounds like it could have been delivered
[7:40] Speaker 1: last week. Yes.
[7:41] Speaker 4: I mean, Keating was a nationalist, right?
[7:44] Speaker 3: Unlike most prime ministers that preceded him, he had a
[7:47] Speaker 3: very deeply inscribed, felt view of the nation's past and
[7:52] Speaker 3: a series of episodes, right, where he believed that the
[7:55] Speaker 3: British had let us down, either the British in London
[7:58] Speaker 3: or sort of wicked bourgeois Anglophiles in Australia like Bob
[8:01] Speaker 3: Menzies who weren't able to separate, you know, their Australian
[8:04] Speaker 3: and British interests.
[8:05] Speaker 2: The same old fogies who doffed their lid and tugged
[8:09] Speaker 2: the forelock to the British establishment who now try and
[8:12] Speaker 2: grind down Australian kids by denying them a technical school
[8:16] Speaker 2: education that want to put a tax on the back
[8:18] Speaker 2: of the poor. The same old sterile ideology that's going
[8:22] Speaker 2: to produce fight back. that produced the Thatcherite policies of
[8:25] Speaker 2: the late 1970s, the same old fogeyism of the 1950s.
[8:29] Speaker 1: We won't have a bar of it.
[8:31] Speaker 2: You can go back to your 50s, to your nostalgia,
[8:34] Speaker 2: to your Menzies, the Casey's and the whole lot. They
[8:37] Speaker 2: were not aggressively Australian. They were not aggressively proud of
[8:40] Speaker 2: our culture. And we'll have no bar of you or
[8:43] Speaker 2: your sterile ideology.
[8:46] Speaker 3: But I think, you know, it is interesting. You're quite
[8:49] Speaker 3: right in that we're returning to these debates. Now, Keating
[8:53] Speaker 3: believed that Australia could have a nationalism of its own.
[8:57] Speaker 3: And he did say on one occasion that multiculturalism has
[9:00] Speaker 3: combined with the lingering Britishness in Australia to circumvent the
[9:04] Speaker 3: emergence of a singular Australian identity. Now, it's very important
[9:09] Speaker 3: to stress here that he wasn't talking the language of
[9:11] Speaker 3: a Pauline Hanson, for example. I think what he realised
[9:15] Speaker 3: and how it in a different way realised the same
[9:18] Speaker 3: thing is that Clearly the forces of globalisation, which was
[9:22] Speaker 3: really taking off in the early 1990s, we were starting
[9:25] Speaker 3: to have conversations about a borderless world, you know, a
[9:28] Speaker 3: transnational nirvana.
[9:30] Speaker 2: Our deep-rooted sense of democracy and our basic tolerance, which
[9:34] Speaker 2: comes from it, is the thing which has given people
[9:37] Speaker 2: the psychological space to let multiculturalism work in a way
[9:43] Speaker 2: that we've been able to draw strength from it. Rather
[9:46] Speaker 2: than diluting Australia's culture, it's replenished it.
[9:50] Speaker 3: I think Keating recognised you still had to have something
[9:53] Speaker 3: to hold the people together. You still needed a fundamental idea.
[9:57] Speaker 3: You needed the real stuff of nations. And for him,
[10:01] Speaker 3: you know, this was things like, you know, a new flag.
[10:03] Speaker 3: It was a republic, first and foremost, and it was
[10:06] Speaker 3: about Australia getting things right with its Indigenous peoples as
[10:10] Speaker 3: much as it could, at least symbolically, right?
[10:13] Speaker 2: If we can build a prosperous and remarkable, harmonious, multicultural
[10:17] Speaker 2: society in Australia... Surely we can find just solutions to
[10:22] Speaker 2: the problems which beset the first Australians, the people to
[10:26] Speaker 2: whom the most injustice has been done.
[10:30] Speaker 3: So all of those things were wrapped up and they
[10:32] Speaker 3: were connected to this foreign policy vision. He thought if
[10:36] Speaker 3: the Southeast Asian countries can understand that we're making an
[10:39] Speaker 3: effort to sort of really cut the final apron strings
[10:43] Speaker 3: to Britain, that we are trying to atone for the
[10:46] Speaker 3: treatment of the Indigenous peoples from the time of European settlement,
[10:49] Speaker 3: and they were actually getting our symbolic house in order,
[10:53] Speaker 3: maybe they'll believe that we are actually trying to engage
[10:56] Speaker 3: meaningfully with the region.
[10:57] Speaker 4: So everything was connected.
[11:01] Speaker 1: Coming up, how Paul Keating is still having a direct
[11:04] Speaker 1: impact on the Labor Party 30 years later. James, 30
[11:21] Speaker 1: years after leaving office, it sounds like Paul Keating's influence
[11:24] Speaker 1: is still being felt quite directly in Australian politics. You
[11:28] Speaker 1: revealed in the book that PM Anthony Albanese called on
[11:31] Speaker 1: Keating after last year's election. Why did he reach out?
[11:34] Speaker 3: Look, I think Paul Keating's criticism of the Albanese-Wong foreign
[11:38] Speaker 3: policy in the first term really stung. I mean, there's
[11:42] Speaker 3: no question, and I've heard evidence from inside the Cabinet room,
[11:45] Speaker 3: that ministers were really jolted, I think, by how ferocious
[11:49] Speaker 3: Keating was in attacking, particularly the AUKUS submarine agreement.
[11:53] Speaker 2: Labor's had a knockout set of rights against the coalition,
[11:57] Speaker 2: but this one is where we break the winning streak.
[12:01] Speaker 2: Because underlying all this stuff about the need of nuclear
[12:04] Speaker 2: power is the idea that China has either threatened us
[12:08] Speaker 2: or will threaten us. Now, this is a distortion and
[12:12] Speaker 2: it's untrue.
[12:13] Speaker 3: And Keating's appearances at the press club, you know, really,
[12:16] Speaker 3: I think, cut through... in a way that few politicians
[12:19] Speaker 3: do these days.
[12:20] Speaker 2: I mean, let me just make this point. Running around
[12:23] Speaker 2: the Pacific Islands with a lay around your neck, handing
[12:25] Speaker 2: out money, which is what Penny does, is not foreign policy.
[12:29] Speaker 2: It's a consular task, fundamentally. Foreign policy, what you do
[12:32] Speaker 2: with the great powers, what you do with China, what
[12:35] Speaker 2: you do with the United States. This government, the Albanese government,
[12:39] Speaker 2: does not employ foreign policy.
[12:41] Speaker 3: So I think Albanese realise that in the second term,
[12:44] Speaker 3: with a big majority, I think it was time to
[12:47] Speaker 3: bring Keating back into the fold. And I think he
[12:49] Speaker 3: wanted to hear what Keating had to say about how
[12:51] Speaker 3: does he handle Trump and how does he handle Xi Jinping?
[12:54] Speaker 3: And this entailed a return of Keating to Kiribilli House.
[12:59] Speaker 4: And, you know, quite a number of hours.
[13:02] Speaker 3: Keating spent basically sort of, I guess, giving Albanese a
[13:07] Speaker 3: bit of different advice.
[13:09] Speaker 1: Do we know what sort of advice he gave, James?
[13:11] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[13:11] Speaker 3: I mean, look, The relationship with China won't go back
[13:14] Speaker 3: to the halcyon days of the 80s and 90s and
[13:16] Speaker 3: the early 2000s.
[13:17] Speaker 4: We know that.
[13:18] Speaker 3: But I think what Keating was saying is, look, there
[13:21] Speaker 3: is still a way to advance national interests by cooperating
[13:24] Speaker 3: with China in areas like steel carbonisation, for example, or
[13:28] Speaker 3: green energy. There is an agenda that we can pursue
[13:31] Speaker 3: here with China because it is only going to get bigger.
[13:34] Speaker 3: It is only going to get more important. The American
[13:37] Speaker 3: presence in Asia is will be affected over the long term.
[13:41] Speaker 4: So we have to make our future here.
[13:42] Speaker 3: I mean, it's all part of the argument that Keating
[13:45] Speaker 3: has about Australia's Asian destiny.
[13:47] Speaker 2: China has committed in the eyes of the United States,
[13:51] Speaker 2: the great sin of internationalism. And what is that sin?
[13:55] Speaker 2: To develop economy as big as the United States. That's
[13:58] Speaker 2: the sin. They've got as big as the US. They
[14:01] Speaker 2: will never, the Americans will never condone or accept a
[14:04] Speaker 2: state as large as them, you know? And that's what
[14:07] Speaker 2: China presents.
[14:08] Speaker 4: So that was the thrust of the advice.
[14:11] Speaker 3: And to Trump, it was all about how do we
[14:14] Speaker 3: think about what comes after Trump, right? Trump, as we know,
[14:19] Speaker 3: has said that AUKUS is full steam ahead. But I
[14:22] Speaker 3: think Paul Keating was telling Anthony Albanese that you realise
[14:26] Speaker 3: that Australia is making itself even more of a target
[14:29] Speaker 3: now because of the level of not just interoperability with
[14:33] Speaker 3: US forces, but interchangeability. And that by building them a
[14:38] Speaker 3: base for their submarines in Perth, we're a bigger target.
[14:41] Speaker 1: On the day of the AUKUS announcement, Keating released a
[14:43] Speaker 1: statement arguing that Australia had turned its back on the
[14:46] Speaker 1: 21st century, the century of Asia, for the jaded and
[14:51] Speaker 1: faded Anglosphere, the domain of the Atlantic, a world away.
[14:55] Speaker 1: And Labor is complicit in this historic backslide. I think
[14:59] Speaker 1: I know the answer, but let's hear it anyway. Why
[15:02] Speaker 1: is AUKUS the antithesis of everything Keating stands for in
[15:05] Speaker 1: foreign policy and defence policy?
[15:07] Speaker 4: Yeah, well, exactly.
[15:09] Speaker 3: It runs so counter to his imperative of Australia being
[15:13] Speaker 3: able to find its own way in a rapidly changing world.
[15:17] Speaker 3: I mean, his view was that a middle power like
[15:19] Speaker 3: Australia had agency, right?
[15:21] Speaker 4: It has agency.
[15:23] Speaker 3: And, you know, the old sort of strategic impulse in
[15:27] Speaker 3: the Australian psychology is which is when there is a
[15:30] Speaker 3: perceived threat from Asia, Australia rushes straight back into the
[15:33] Speaker 3: bosom of its great and powerful friends. And so here
[15:36] Speaker 3: you had, you know, as I think he put it
[15:38] Speaker 3: in that speech, here you had Morrison going back to
[15:41] Speaker 3: talk to Joe Biden and Boris Johnson, you know, on
[15:45] Speaker 3: the coast of England, not far from where Captain Cook
[15:48] Speaker 3: set out to discover Australia, you know, in 1770. So
[15:52] Speaker 3: how had we arrived at this point, you know, and
[15:54] Speaker 3: what sort of message does this send to the regions?
[15:56] Speaker 3: And I think Australian foreign policy at the moment is
[15:59] Speaker 3: being conducted with a forked tongue. We speak all the
[16:02] Speaker 3: nice language about bolstering the Pacific and bolstering Pacific ties,
[16:06] Speaker 3: respecting the Southeast Asian's need for an independent view between
[16:11] Speaker 3: US and China. But we speak more loudly in terms
[16:15] Speaker 3: of what we do on AUKUS and giving the Americans
[16:17] Speaker 3: more and more of the continent. So I think he
[16:19] Speaker 3: saw it as a betrayal in many ways of Australia's
[16:24] Speaker 3: independent sense of self, of a belief in its capacity
[16:28] Speaker 3: that it could chart its own way and tell its
[16:30] Speaker 3: own stories in a rapidly changing world.
[16:33] Speaker 1: And finally, James, we know that Paul Keating is very
[16:36] Speaker 1: fastidious when it comes to the management of his own legacy.
[16:42] Speaker 1: What does he think about this book? Have you heard
[16:43] Speaker 1: from him?
[16:44] Speaker 3: Yes, he has seen it, but he's in the middle
[16:47] Speaker 3: of reading it, so I haven't quite had a verdict
[16:50] Speaker 3: from him at the moment, but... I think, broadly speaking,
[16:54] Speaker 3: I was the beneficiary of Paul Keating's incredible newspaper collection
[16:59] Speaker 3: and archival collection. And so I think he's very happy
[17:04] Speaker 3: to see a historian engage with the records, right? These
[17:08] Speaker 3: are records that normally wouldn't be released for quite some
[17:12] Speaker 3: time because of the rules of the National Archives. So
[17:15] Speaker 3: the material, I can just say for your listeners, is
[17:17] Speaker 3: extremely rich. So I do hope people enjoy it.
[17:21] Speaker 4: Like all these things... The book has its flaws and limitations,
[17:24] Speaker 4: but they are mine and mine alone.
[17:26] Speaker 3: So look, he still can be a very bruising and
[17:30] Speaker 3: pugnacious figure in the public debate. So we'll just have
[17:33] Speaker 3: to wait and see how that goes.
[17:35] Speaker 1: Well, James, thanks for the book. It's a wonderful contribution.
[17:38] Speaker 1: Thank you.
[17:38] Speaker 4: My pleasure. Thank you very much.
[17:42] Speaker 1: James's book, Grand Ambition, is out now. 7am is a
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