# The $25 billion plan to take on Coles and Woolworths

An episode of [7am](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1461999702), 8 Oct 2026, 16 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/62723a1f-3e96-4fc4-882c-b25e0181da4d/4ddc4549-fb66-46ca-9db3-b4dd0035a8be/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=70f29d90-2a63-48aa-bf8f-b25e0181da70

The Greens’ official think-tank has a new proposition — a national chain of 624 publicly owned supermarkets. To make that a reality would cost more than $25 billion, and involve the forced sale of 200 Coles and Woolworths supermarkets. But the Institute, which took its inspiration from New York mayor Zohran Mamdani, says it would cut grocery bills by 22 per cent. Today, former MP and now Green Institute Executive Director Max Chandler-Mather on his proposal for a publicly owned supermarket chain. If you enjoy 7am, the best way you can support us is by making a contribution at 7ampodcast.com.au/support. Socials: Stay in touch with us on Instagram Guest: Green Institute Executive Director Max Chandler-Mather Photo: AAP Image/Dan Peled See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: The Greens' official think tank has a new proposition, a
[0:04] Speaker 1: national chain of 624 publicly owned supermarkets. To make that
[0:09] Speaker 1: a reality would cost more than $ 25 billion and involve
[0:13] Speaker 1: the forced sale of 200 Coles and Woolworths supermarkets. But
[0:17] Speaker 1: the institute, which took its inspiration from New York Mayor
[0:20] Speaker 1: Zoran Mamdani, says it would cut grocery bills by 22%.
[0:28] Speaker 1: I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to 7am. Today, former
[0:33] Speaker 1: MP and now Green Institute Executive Director Max Chandler-Mather on
[0:37] Speaker 1: his proposal for a publicly owned supermarket chain. It's Friday,
[0:45] Speaker 1: October 10. Max, you've just released this idea in your
[0:55] Speaker 1: role with the Green Institute, a call to nationalise Australia's
[0:59] Speaker 1: big supermarkets. So to begin with, just explain to me
[1:02] Speaker 1: if I was to walk into a publicly owned supermarket
[1:06] Speaker 1: under this plan, what would be different to walking into
[1:09] Speaker 1: a Coles or a Woolworths now?
[1:11] Speaker 2: Well, you would be saving 30% on the price of
[1:14] Speaker 2: essential groceries. So that would include things like fruit and vegetables, meat, milk, cheese,
[1:20] Speaker 2: and you'd be saving that 30% because Fairgo Grocers, this
[1:24] Speaker 2: publicly owned supermarket we've proposed, would be cutting out not
[1:28] Speaker 2: just the profit, but the billions of dollars in wasteful
[1:31] Speaker 2: corporate spending that Coles and Allworths engage in, whether that
[1:34] Speaker 2: be the marketing, executive salaries, all the stuff that comes
[1:38] Speaker 2: with being these big bloated private corporations. I should say
[1:41] Speaker 2: we're not proposing to entirely nationalize Coles and Woolworths. Our
[1:45] Speaker 2: proposal is that Fairgo Grocers would compulsorily acquire, at a
[1:50] Speaker 2: fair commercial price, 200 Coles and Woolworths stores and three
[1:54] Speaker 2: distribution centers and then build hundreds more after that to
[1:58] Speaker 2: aim for about 20% of the supermarket industry. Two goals there,
[2:02] Speaker 2: break up the duopoly of Coles and Woolworths, provide a
[2:06] Speaker 2: genuinely affordable supermarket, full-service supermarket that people can access. but
[2:11] Speaker 2: also force Coles and Woolworths to compete. by forcing them
[2:15] Speaker 2: to compete with a supermarket that's driving down prices, forces
[2:17] Speaker 2: them to drive down prices and makes for a more
[2:19] Speaker 2: competitive supermarket industry and saves people thousands of dollars a year.
[2:24] Speaker 1: And this proposal, it is, of course, similar to that
[2:27] Speaker 1: of the New York mayor, Zoran Mamdani's plan to open
[2:30] Speaker 1: these subsidized city-owned stores in New York.
[2:33] Speaker 2: Today, I am proud to announce a collection of essential
[2:36] Speaker 2: staples that will be predictably 30% cheaper at all five
[2:41] Speaker 2: of our city-run grocery stores.
[2:44] Speaker 1: Is that where the inspiration comes from?
[2:46] Speaker 2: Yeah, partly it comes from that. I think it also
[2:48] Speaker 2: comes from recognising that we're in the middle of this
[2:51] Speaker 2: massive cost of living crisis and one of the biggest
[2:54] Speaker 2: drivers of that crisis is aggressive corporate profiteering.
[2:58] Speaker 3: Coles said that it was offering genuine discounts. Today, the
[3:02] Speaker 3: court disagreed.
[3:03] Speaker 2: And in this case, you know, you have Coles and
[3:05] Speaker 2: Woolworths abusing their monopoly power to drive up prices and
[3:09] Speaker 2: maximise profits.
[3:11] Speaker 3: The supermarket giant is also facing a class-action lawsuit from
[3:15] Speaker 3: its own shoppers over the same allegations of fake discounts,
[3:19] Speaker 3: and its main rival Woolworths also battling it out in
[3:22] Speaker 3: the federal court with the ACCC over similar allegations of
[3:26] Speaker 3: dodgy discounts.
[3:27] Speaker 2: And it's pretty clear that what we need as a
[3:30] Speaker 2: solution to this profiteering from corporations across the economy, driving
[3:34] Speaker 2: up prices and screwing people over, are structural responses, not
[3:37] Speaker 2: just tinkering around the edges.
[3:39] Speaker 1: So.
[3:39] Speaker 2: In part, it's inspired by the New York mayor willing
[3:43] Speaker 2: to take that sort of response and open up publicly
[3:45] Speaker 2: owned supermarkets in New York. Interestingly enough, the biggest network
[3:49] Speaker 2: of publicly owned supermarkets in the world is actually run
[3:53] Speaker 2: by the US military. They have hundreds of publicly owned supermarkets.
[3:57] Speaker 2: across the US as well as across the world. And
[4:00] Speaker 2: they're available not just to veterans and their families, but
[4:03] Speaker 2: serving servicemen and men and women as well. They offer
[4:06] Speaker 2: a 23% discount compared to their sort of commercial competitors.
[4:10] Speaker 2: You walk in there and it would look like a
[4:12] Speaker 2: standard commercial supermarket. So we're also inspired by the fact
[4:15] Speaker 2: that this has been done around the world successfully already.
[4:19] Speaker 2: And frankly, you know, we did a poll through YouGov.
[4:22] Speaker 2: It found that one in five parents over the last
[4:25] Speaker 2: 12 months have sent their kids to school hungry or
[4:28] Speaker 2: with empty lunchboxes because of the cost of food. 38%
[4:32] Speaker 2: of respondents of this representative sample of people across the country,
[4:36] Speaker 2: so over one in three, have said that over the
[4:38] Speaker 2: last 12 months they've either skipped meals themselves or cut
[4:42] Speaker 2: back because of the cost of food. And I just
[4:45] Speaker 2: think that in a wealthy country like Australia, when you
[4:47] Speaker 2: have this vicious... poverty and food insecurity and cost of
[4:52] Speaker 2: living pressures on household budgets. We need big structural change
[4:55] Speaker 2: in response to that that actually provides genuine lasting cost
[4:58] Speaker 2: of living relief.
[5:00] Speaker 1: Let's talk a little about scale here because Mamdani's plan,
[5:03] Speaker 1: that involves just five stores in New York, but you're
[5:06] Speaker 1: not proposing a handful of stores here. You're suggesting that
[5:10] Speaker 1: the government acquire 200, as you said, Coles and Woolworth stores,
[5:14] Speaker 1: as well as some distribution centres before then going on
[5:17] Speaker 1: to build another 400 stores. So why do you think
[5:21] Speaker 1: it needs to be so big?
[5:23] Speaker 2: Well, because you need to reach economies of scale. So
[5:26] Speaker 2: in the first instance, We want to make sure that
[5:28] Speaker 2: anyone in the country would be within walking or driving
[5:31] Speaker 2: distance of, well, most people of a Fairgo grocer or
[5:35] Speaker 2: a public supermarket. Secondly, one of the ways to achieve
[5:39] Speaker 2: the affordability of the scheme. So our proposal is that
[5:41] Speaker 2: after the first five years of initial investment, Fairgo grocers
[5:44] Speaker 2: would be cost neutral. The revenue would fund the ongoing operations,
[5:49] Speaker 2: including wages and procuring stock and things like that. And
[5:54] Speaker 2: one of the ways you achieve that is if you
[5:55] Speaker 2: have a big enough entry into the market, in this case, 20%
[5:59] Speaker 2: of the supermarket industry, they can negotiate good contracts, they
[6:03] Speaker 2: can get big supply agreements, they can coordinate across the country,
[6:07] Speaker 2: but also, crucially, genuinely take on Coles and Woolworths. Australia
[6:12] Speaker 2: has the most concentrated supermarket industry in the world. 67%
[6:17] Speaker 2: of the supermarket industry in Australia is owned by Coles
[6:20] Speaker 2: and Woolworths. And it's pretty clear now that a private
[6:23] Speaker 2: corporation is just not going to be able to stand
[6:25] Speaker 2: up to them. There's just no scenario where some big
[6:28] Speaker 2: corporation comes in and breaks the control that Coles and
[6:31] Speaker 2: Woolworths have over our supermarket industry. In that instance, the
[6:35] Speaker 2: only actual institution capable of wielding that sort of power
[6:38] Speaker 2: is the government. And so part of our proposal and
[6:41] Speaker 2: scale is that as well.
[6:43] Speaker 1: And you're saying that the average grocery shop, it would
[6:45] Speaker 1: be 22% cheaper, essentials 30% cheaper. Where do those numbers
[6:50] Speaker 1: come from?
[6:51] Speaker 2: So 22% across the entire shop comes from what we
[6:54] Speaker 2: think conceivably a large public supermarket chain could provide as
[6:58] Speaker 2: a store-wide discount while also earning enough revenue to cover
[7:02] Speaker 2: its operations. The 30% discount on essentials is roughly speaking
[7:07] Speaker 2: undoing a lot of the price increases in those essentials
[7:10] Speaker 2: since COVID. Not just capping prices, which has been talked
[7:14] Speaker 2: about in the past, but in this instance, making a
[7:16] Speaker 2: genuine cut in the price of things. Things have gone up.
[7:20] Speaker 2: Since 2019, the price of cooking oil is up 50%.
[7:24] Speaker 2: The price of eggs is up 50%. The price of
[7:26] Speaker 2: fruit is up 35%. Milk, bread, cheese, all these things
[7:32] Speaker 2: are up somewhere between 35% and 50%. That's sometimes more
[7:36] Speaker 2: than double the rate of wages in that same period.
[7:39] Speaker 2: This proposal and this intervention would save families thousands of
[7:44] Speaker 2: dollars a year. It would mean A lot of people
[7:46] Speaker 2: would have that little bit of extra security that I
[7:49] Speaker 2: think is fundamental in a country like Australia to ensuring
[7:52] Speaker 2: that people can live a good life.
[7:54] Speaker 1: How would the government go about that, though? How would
[7:56] Speaker 1: you go about seizing hundreds of Coles and Woolworths? There
[7:59] Speaker 1: isn't really a precedent for that.
[8:01] Speaker 2: Well, there is. And interestingly enough, in my term of parliament,
[8:05] Speaker 2: there was a big debate around that time during the
[8:07] Speaker 2: ACCC inquiry into price gouging by Coles and Woolworths. And
[8:11] Speaker 2: one of the big policy solutions that was proposed there
[8:13] Speaker 2: was these things called divestiture powers. In other words, you
[8:17] Speaker 2: could give the federal government the power to force Coles
[8:20] Speaker 2: and Woolworths to sell a certain number of stores and
[8:22] Speaker 2: distribution centres so they would reduce their market share in
[8:26] Speaker 2: the supermarket industry. Now, funnily enough, the two political parties
[8:30] Speaker 2: that actually supported that were the Greens and the Nationals.
[8:33] Speaker 2: obviously coming up from different political perspectives. But what that
[8:37] Speaker 2: made clear was the federal government could, if the laws
[8:39] Speaker 2: were changed, acquire that power. That's our proposal. What we're
[8:43] Speaker 2: proposing is that when they're forced to sell them, they're
[8:45] Speaker 2: forced to sell them to a public supermarket chain. In
[8:49] Speaker 2: terms of the mechanics, what we've proposed is that the
[8:51] Speaker 2: government would establish a statutory authority that would operate at
[8:54] Speaker 2: arm's length from the government, that, you know, would have
[8:57] Speaker 2: a board of people made up of nutritionists, economists, people
[9:01] Speaker 2: with expertise, farmers... But it's entirely achievable. And, you know,
[9:06] Speaker 2: there's this lost historical memory about government capacity. Like, in
[9:11] Speaker 2: the 20th century, the government used to run the entire
[9:13] Speaker 2: energy system. The safest airline in the world in Qantas
[9:16] Speaker 2: was publicly owned. The largest bank, Commonwealth Bank, was publicly owned.
[9:21] Speaker 2: There is, in fact, a really strong history of really
[9:24] Speaker 2: impressive public capacity when it comes to running these large services.
[9:28] Speaker 2: And certainly, I think there's a really strong case that
[9:31] Speaker 2: we need a public intervention here as well.
[9:36] Speaker 1: Still to come is breaking up the supermarket giants the
[9:39] Speaker 1: smarter political option.
[9:50] Speaker 2: Now on this thought bubble from I think a Greens
[9:53] Speaker 2: policy think tank I mean come on that's a little
[9:56] Speaker 2: bit silly to think we'll have government-run grocery stores. I
[9:59] Speaker 2: probably couldn't think of anything worse. But yes, we do
[10:01] Speaker 2: need more competition.
[10:02] Speaker 1: Max, you mentioned earlier there used to be some agreement
[10:06] Speaker 1: between the Greens and the Nationals on one element of this,
[10:09] Speaker 1: of breaking up the supermarket giants. The Greens' policy used
[10:13] Speaker 1: to be divestiture. And that did put them in step
[10:16] Speaker 1: with the Nationals, which meant that there was this possibility
[10:19] Speaker 1: of working together on that outcome. Not so with this idea, though.
[10:24] Speaker 1: So why move away from something that did have a
[10:27] Speaker 1: potential political pathway?
[10:30] Speaker 2: Well, I think all sorts of ideas start out like this,
[10:33] Speaker 2: for instance, as sort of a bold idea that shocks,
[10:36] Speaker 2: in particular, the parts of the political and media class.
[10:39] Speaker 2: And that ends up seeming like common sense a few
[10:41] Speaker 2: years later. And the economy in the world has changed
[10:44] Speaker 2: a lot over the last decade or so. In this
[10:47] Speaker 2: moment of global insecurity, duopolies and monopolies dominate the Australian economy.
[10:52] Speaker 2: We only have really four dominant banks, two supermarkets, a
[10:56] Speaker 2: half-privatised energy system. In all of these instances, these corporations
[11:01] Speaker 2: use that power, take advantage of these growing global crises
[11:05] Speaker 2: to maximise their profits. I suppose our argument is that
[11:08] Speaker 2: going forward, that's not sustainable anymore. Now, thinking back to
[11:11] Speaker 2: the 19th and early 20th century, one of the big
[11:14] Speaker 2: debates that happened around then that at first seemed like
[11:16] Speaker 2: a completely radical idea was that we need a public
[11:20] Speaker 2: option for healthcare and education because they are essentials to life.
[11:23] Speaker 2: So then we get public schools, we get public hospitals
[11:26] Speaker 2: in the teeth of fierce opposition often. And now I
[11:30] Speaker 2: would argue that just like health and education, food is
[11:33] Speaker 2: also an essential to life. It's also becoming more insecure.
[11:36] Speaker 2: It's also more subject to the predatory profit-driving behaviour of
[11:40] Speaker 2: these large megacorporations. And in that instance, it makes sense,
[11:44] Speaker 2: as the economy in the world changes, to change as
[11:46] Speaker 2: well in our policy and have a public option for food.
[11:51] Speaker 1: And you've produced this policy idea through the Green Institute.
[11:54] Speaker 1: You're now asking the Greens adopt it. So, Is this
[11:57] Speaker 1: a statement that, in your opinion, the Greens do need
[12:00] Speaker 1: to go much more aggressively on cost of living and
[12:02] Speaker 1: on material economic issues?
[12:05] Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I should say I have a really good,
[12:07] Speaker 2: close working relationship with the federal Greens and state Greens parties.
[12:11] Speaker 2: But yes, the contest now has to be how can
[12:15] Speaker 2: we offer the most convincing, credible, but transformative platform that
[12:20] Speaker 2: deals with this massive cost of living and housing crisis?
[12:24] Speaker 2: you know, there's all these comparisons made to Zoramandami. But
[12:27] Speaker 2: the thing I would, I often think about, one of
[12:31] Speaker 2: the most impressive things I remember about his campaign, you know,
[12:34] Speaker 2: there's that funny moment where I think two weeks before
[12:37] Speaker 2: the general election in New York, a reporter comes up
[12:40] Speaker 2: to him and says, oh, well, Donald Trump has just
[12:43] Speaker 2: said that he's more attractive than you.
[12:45] Speaker 1: Well, I think I'm a much better looking person.
[12:47] Speaker 4: Than him, right?
[12:47] Speaker 2: What do you say to that? And Zoran said, I
[12:49] Speaker 2: don't know, man. All I'm focused on is affordability for
[12:52] Speaker 2: New Yorkers. Assemblyman, any response to President Trump saying he's
[12:55] Speaker 2: better looking than you? My focus is on the cost
[12:59] Speaker 2: of living prices. And that is the sort of focus
[13:02] Speaker 2: I think any political movement vying for transformative change in
[13:05] Speaker 2: this country needs right now. And, you know, I think
[13:07] Speaker 2: there's a lot of good positive signs from the Greens
[13:09] Speaker 2: that are doing that.
[13:10] Speaker 1: How well placed do you think the Greens are to
[13:12] Speaker 1: have the kind of focus that you're advocating for under
[13:15] Speaker 1: its new leadership under David Shoebridge?
[13:17] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, fantastic position. You know, we're in this moment, right,
[13:21] Speaker 2: where the political establishment, in particular in the Labor and
[13:24] Speaker 2: Liberal Party, really, in funny ways, are moving closer and
[13:28] Speaker 2: closer together policy-wise and seem completely bereft of any of
[13:32] Speaker 2: that sort of vision or bravery or courage or willingness
[13:36] Speaker 2: to take on the large corporations, but also the sort
[13:40] Speaker 2: of structural issues in our economy. And Certainly, I think
[13:44] Speaker 2: the Greens are in a really good position, for instance,
[13:47] Speaker 2: to deal with one of those big pieces of structural
[13:50] Speaker 2: reform we need, which is starting to reverse the privatisation
[13:53] Speaker 2: that has put us in this position in the first place.
[13:55] Speaker 2: We could have much cheaper energy bills if our energy
[13:57] Speaker 2: system was publicly owned. We could have much cheaper groceries
[14:01] Speaker 2: if we had a public option for food. We could
[14:04] Speaker 2: probably have a far better run telecommunications industry if we
[14:08] Speaker 2: reverse the privatisation there. childcare, aged care, so many of
[14:12] Speaker 2: the problems in our economy are because for decades, both
[14:15] Speaker 2: major parties have decided that they will take these really
[14:18] Speaker 2: well-run public institutions and flog them off to the highest bidder. Often,
[14:23] Speaker 2: these large international conglomerates, a lot of our ex-public assets
[14:28] Speaker 2: are now owned by BlackRock and Vanguard, US wealth funds.
[14:32] Speaker 2: A The Greens are in a really good position to
[14:35] Speaker 2: be the standard bearers of that structural transformative change that
[14:39] Speaker 2: brings real cost of living relief and fundamentally transforms people's
[14:43] Speaker 2: lives for the better.
[14:47] Speaker 1: Max, thank you for speaking with me.
[14:48] Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
[15:03] Speaker 4: Also in the news, fitness influencer and former Bachelor star
[15:07] Speaker 4: Sam Wood has been denied bail on domestic violence charges
[15:11] Speaker 4: and remanded in custody until November 23. Police have now
[15:15] Speaker 4: detailed the allegations saying Wood's wife Snejana thought she was
[15:18] Speaker 4: going to die when she was assaulted and choked during
[15:21] Speaker 4: an argument in Noosa. Wood's lawyer says he denies the
[15:24] Speaker 4: allegations and has indicated he may plead self-defence. And it's
[15:29] Speaker 4: been revealed that OpenAI used AI to help write the
[15:32] Speaker 4: email which warned the Australian government that one of its
[15:34] Speaker 4: AI agents had hacked Medicare. The company first alerted Australia
[15:39] Speaker 4: to the security breach in a five-paragraph email to a
[15:42] Speaker 4: Generic Services Australia inbox, a month after it first became
[15:46] Speaker 4: aware of the issue. It's been criticised for not raising
[15:49] Speaker 4: the hacking incident in a more formal or direct manner.
[15:53] Speaker 4: I'm Daniel James. Thanks for listening to 7am. We'll be
[15:56] Speaker 4: back tomorrow.
[16:01] Speaker 3: You

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