# Is Qantas sorry – or just sorry it got caught?

An episode of [7am](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1461999702), 1 Aug 2026, 16 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/62723a1f-3e96-4fc4-882c-b25e0181da4d/6775482b-9af7-4958-aef4-b49800597014/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=70f29d90-2a63-48aa-bf8f-b25e0181da70

This week, 7am spoke with former Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce, as he returned to public life with a memoir defending many of the decisions he made during his final years at the airline. Joyce said the company was fighting for survival during the pandemic and that, while mistakes were made, the difficult decisions taken under his leadership were necessary to keep Qantas from going under. Today, we revisit our conversation with journalist and author Joe Aston, recorded after Qantas was handed a record $90 million penalty for illegally outsourcing 1,800 workers. It asks what those decisions cost, whether they really were necessary, and whether the airline has actually changed since Joyce’s departure. The episode originally aired in August 2025. If you enjoy 7am, the best way you can support us is by making a contribution at 7ampodcast.com.au/support. Socials: Stay in touch with us on Instagram Guest: Rampart founder and author of The Chairman's Lounge: The Inside Story of How Qantas Sold Us Out, Joe Aston Photo: AAP Image/Dean Lewins See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to seven AM. This week,
[0:10] Speaker 1: seven Am spoke with former Corners chief executive Alan Joyce
[0:14] Speaker 1: as a return to public life with a memoir defending
[0:17] Speaker 1: many of the decisions he made during his final years
[0:20] Speaker 1: at the airline. Joyce said the company was fighting for
[0:23] Speaker 1: survival during the pandemic and that while mistakes were made,
[0:27] Speaker 1: the difficult decisions taken under his leadership were necessary to
[0:30] Speaker 1: keep Quanters from going under. Today we revisit our conversation
[0:34] Speaker 1: with journalists and author Joe Aston, recorded after Connas was
[0:38] Speaker 1: handed a record ninety million dollar penalty for illegally outsourcing
[0:42] Speaker 1: eighteen hundred workers. It asked what those decisions cost, if
[0:46] Speaker 1: they were really necessary, and whether the airline has actually
[0:49] Speaker 1: changed since Joyce's departure. It's Sunday, August two. This episode
[1:01] Speaker 1: was originally published in August twenty twenty five.
[1:05] Speaker 2: So Joe, thank you for joining me on zevn Am
[1:08] Speaker 2: My Pleasure. On Monday, Contus was ordered to pay a
[1:12] Speaker 2: ninety million dollar fine for illegally sacking eighteen hundred workers
[1:17] Speaker 2: back during the pandemic, and in delivering his judgment, Justice
[1:21] Speaker 2: Mike Auley called Contus the wrong kind of sorry, So
[1:25] Speaker 2: tell me what you made of his comments and of
[1:27] Speaker 2: the decision more broadly.
[1:29] Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I've been watching this case for a
[1:31] Speaker 3: long time. It's been a marathon. The first try, the
[1:34] Speaker 3: actual original liability trial, was in twenty twenty one, in
[1:37] Speaker 3: the middle of lockdowns.
[1:39] Speaker 2: Federal Court will decide whether Quantus acted illegally when it
[1:42] Speaker 2: sacked hundreds of Melbourne ground crew and.
[1:45] Speaker 3: Gave their jobs to a cheaper contractor the unionit You know,
[1:48] Speaker 3: then Quantus had lost that case and then appealed straight
[1:51] Speaker 3: to the Full Court.
[1:52] Speaker 2: The Federal Court found the decision to outsource about two
[1:55] Speaker 2: thousand groundworkers was in breach of the Fair Worked Act Towns.
[2:00] Speaker 3: They lost that case in twenty twenty two, and then
[2:02] Speaker 3: they appealed straight to the High Court and they lost
[2:04] Speaker 3: that case in twenty twenty three.
[2:05] Speaker 4: The Court has dismissed unanimously Quantus's appeal. It now stands
[2:12] Speaker 4: their actions against these Quantus families as the largest sacking
[2:18] Speaker 4: in Australian corporate.
[2:19] Speaker 3: History, who were sent back to the Federal Court to
[2:22] Speaker 3: decide on the compensation that they should pay to those workers,
[2:26] Speaker 3: and that was decided in twenty twenty four that they
[2:28] Speaker 3: should pay one hundred and twenty million dollars. Quantus has
[2:30] Speaker 3: been forced to pay more than one hundred and twenty
[2:32] Speaker 3: million dollars in compensation to workers whose jobs were legally
[2:36] Speaker 3: outsourced during the pandemic about eighteen Only now in twenty
[2:40] Speaker 3: twenty five have they been hit with their penalties. Quantas
[2:43] Speaker 3: has just been fined ninety million dollars for illegally sacking
[2:47] Speaker 3: eighteen hundred groundstaf five years ago. It's just been sort
[2:52] Speaker 3: of this incremental debacle unfolding, which Quantus until the very
[2:57] Speaker 3: last minute was fighting. Even when they lost in the
[3:01] Speaker 3: High Court, that then chairman of Quantus, Richard Gouter, was
[3:03] Speaker 3: dismissing the ruling of the court and saying, well, look,
[3:06] Speaker 3: we had sound commercial reasons for that decision. Justice Lee
[3:12] Speaker 3: was quite brilliant in pointing out how completely silly that
[3:15] Speaker 3: argument is. Of course they had sound commercial reasons. I mean,
[3:18] Speaker 3: what kind of an outsourcing would it have been if
[3:20] Speaker 3: they didn't have sound commercial reasons. It was just a
[3:23] Speaker 3: bizarre reasoning that they were offering. You know, we engaged
[3:26] Speaker 3: in illegal behavior because it made us money. Now that
[3:28] Speaker 3: doesn't make it okay, So it wasn't just the illegal outsourcing.
[3:32] Speaker 3: It was the way they conducted themselves even when they
[3:35] Speaker 3: were found to have done the wrong thing by a
[3:37] Speaker 3: court afterwards. And Justice Lee also this is one of
[3:41] Speaker 3: the big reasons why he didn't believe that they were
[3:43] Speaker 3: really sorry. Only last year in twenty twenty four, Quantus
[3:46] Speaker 3: was arguing in the compensation hearings that the workers should
[3:52] Speaker 3: get zero dollars of compensation. That was actually the argument
[3:55] Speaker 3: being put to the court by Quantus, that the workers
[3:58] Speaker 3: should not get any compensation at all. That's obviously not
[4:01] Speaker 3: an argument that it suggests a company that is feeling
[4:04] Speaker 3: contrite about its wrongdoing.
[4:06] Speaker 2: Okay, so we had the company at least initially arguing
[4:09] Speaker 2: that there should be no compensation for workers. They have
[4:13] Speaker 2: now been ordered to pay a ninety million dollar fine.
[4:16] Speaker 2: So let's talk about that for a moment. How does
[4:18] Speaker 2: that amount compare with what Quantus wanted versus what the
[4:22] Speaker 2: union wanted.
[4:23] Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean the fine itself is staggering, by far,
[4:28] Speaker 3: the biggest fine ever imposed on a company for a
[4:31] Speaker 3: breach of general protections under the Act. The last highest
[4:35] Speaker 3: ever was ten million dollars against the Commonwealth Bank for
[4:39] Speaker 3: an underpayment issue that went over a decade. The fine
[4:43] Speaker 3: is generally paid to the party that is bringing the case,
[4:46] Speaker 3: and usually that party is a fair work combodsman who
[4:49] Speaker 3: prosecutes breaches of the Act by employers. But of course
[4:53] Speaker 3: in this case, the ombodsman was fast asleep and the
[4:56] Speaker 3: union decided to take the action itself. And that's why
[5:00] Speaker 3: it's really unusual about this. That's such a huge amount
[5:03] Speaker 3: of money is being paid to the union.
[5:05] Speaker 2: Right and so so does that money then go from
[5:08] Speaker 2: the union to the workers? Have they said how to
[5:10] Speaker 2: be divvied up?
[5:11] Speaker 3: So the penalties, ninety fifty of that goes to the
[5:14] Speaker 3: union and then the other forty will go to the
[5:17] Speaker 3: workers on top of one hundred and twenty million that
[5:20] Speaker 3: they were already getting in compensation. But you know, if
[5:23] Speaker 3: you look at how many workers were illegally sacked, there's
[5:25] Speaker 3: eighteen hundred. It Actually, you know, this is not sort
[5:28] Speaker 3: of life changing money for people who've lost their livelihoods.
[5:31] Speaker 3: The forty million dollars split eighteen hundred ways, that's only
[5:36] Speaker 3: twenty two thousand dollars per person. So for someone who's
[5:39] Speaker 3: lost a long term, a good paying blue collar job,
[5:43] Speaker 3: that's not going to get them over line.
[5:47] Speaker 2: And it's been a year now since Quantus announced that
[5:50] Speaker 2: it was slashing Allan Joyce's payout by almost ten million,
[5:54] Speaker 2: and that was partly because of his handling of this.
[5:58] Speaker 2: And at the time, Quantus knowledge the harm that had
[6:01] Speaker 2: been done to their reputation, particularly with their customers, and
[6:04] Speaker 2: they commissioned a review to tell them how to fix it.
[6:07] Speaker 2: So what did that review end up saying and has
[6:11] Speaker 2: the company implemented any changes?
[6:13] Speaker 3: Well, yeah, well the review was damning and the review
[6:15] Speaker 3: found that Quantus had a terrible culture and it had
[6:18] Speaker 3: a board that was too weak to challenge the CEO,
[6:21] Speaker 3: Alan Joyce, And this case the legal sackings was one
[6:25] Speaker 3: part of it. But you know, you remember there was
[6:26] Speaker 3: also the ghost flights, the issue of COVID credits and
[6:30] Speaker 3: the way customers were really poorly treated by those There
[6:34] Speaker 3: was a huge amount of price gouging. There's a massive
[6:37] Speaker 3: suite of issues that were affecting quantus reputation. Now, what
[6:43] Speaker 3: has actually changed a lot of that is sort of
[6:47] Speaker 3: at the surface level. I think it's fair to say
[6:50] Speaker 3: that Quantus under Vanessa Hudson is a company more focused
[6:53] Speaker 3: on its customers and on its staff than it had
[6:56] Speaker 3: been previously. But you know, does it still the highest
[7:00] Speaker 3: possible faares that it can on routes where there's not
[7:03] Speaker 3: very much competition? Absolutely? Does it still invest insufficiently in
[7:08] Speaker 3: new aircraft to improve the experience and reliability for its customers. Absolutely,
[7:15] Speaker 3: you know, and also, by the way, to reduce the
[7:18] Speaker 3: impact on the environment. So Quantus has changed its bedside manner.
[7:24] Speaker 3: I think that's fair to say, and that's not nothing.
[7:26] Speaker 3: That's an important thing. But if you look deeply, Quantus
[7:29] Speaker 3: is still a very aggressive company.
[7:32] Speaker 2: Right, so the underlying strategy might not have changed even
[7:35] Speaker 2: though Joyce is out of the picture. So what ongoing
[7:38] Speaker 2: benefits does Joyce get as a result of the time
[7:41] Speaker 2: that he spent there.
[7:42] Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you know, he made one hundred and
[7:44] Speaker 3: thirty million dollars a CEO of Quantus. That's pretty good
[7:47] Speaker 3: coin if you can get it. And he's got a
[7:50] Speaker 3: golden ticket. It's like the one they give you in
[7:52] Speaker 3: Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, except instead of instead of
[7:55] Speaker 3: unlimited chocolate, it's unlimited first class flights for life.
[8:01] Speaker 2: After the break. What Quantus says it's learned and what
[8:04] Speaker 2: its profits really show Joe Quantus for the past year
[8:13] Speaker 2: has been run by Vanessa Hudson. So tell me a
[8:16] Speaker 2: bit more about her and how she's approached her role.
[8:19] Speaker 1: SOFA.
[8:20] Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, Vanessa Hudson's even more of a Quantus lifer
[8:23] Speaker 3: than Alan Joyce in that she started at the company.
[8:26] Speaker 3: I think it was almost her second job in the
[8:29] Speaker 3: audit department, which is a very exciting place as you
[8:31] Speaker 3: can imagine, in nineteen ninety four, in her twenties, and
[8:36] Speaker 3: has worked right across the company. When I worked at
[8:39] Speaker 3: Quantas in the late two thousands, she was running customer
[8:44] Speaker 3: product and service inflight product and service when the airline
[8:47] Speaker 3: received its first day three eighties, and then she's gone
[8:50] Speaker 3: and run the American division of Quantus. She came back
[8:55] Speaker 3: and was chief Customer Officer briefly and then became the
[8:57] Speaker 3: chief financial officer. So she's really worked right across the company,
[9:01] Speaker 3: and she became CEO in twenty twenty three. Her pitch
[9:05] Speaker 3: to the board of Quantas for the job is I'm
[9:06] Speaker 3: not going to change anything. I'm going to be just
[9:08] Speaker 3: like Alan Joyce. Now, as Alan Joyce became absolutely toxic
[9:13] Speaker 3: in the dying months of his reign, she had to
[9:16] Speaker 3: very quickly change that plan and try to distinguish herself
[9:20] Speaker 3: from Joyce and be someone different.
[9:23] Speaker 5: We want to get back to the national carrier that
[9:25] Speaker 5: Australians can be proud of, that's known for going above
[9:28] Speaker 5: and beyond. We understand we need to earn your trust back,
[9:33] Speaker 5: not with what we say, but what we do and
[9:36] Speaker 5: how we behave.
[9:37] Speaker 3: And she has to keep the shareholders happy, She has
[9:40] Speaker 3: to make up with customers, and she has to make
[9:43] Speaker 3: staff feel like it's worth going out there and putting
[9:45] Speaker 3: themselves on the line every day. For those customers. She's
[9:48] Speaker 3: sort of done pretty well. For the shareholders, they're very happy.
[9:51] Speaker 3: The share prices more than double since she's been in charge.
[9:56] Speaker 3: And in terms of making up with the customers, noises
[10:00] Speaker 3: are made. But they'll never admit this. But every senior
[10:04] Speaker 3: executive at Quantus knows that they only have to be
[10:06] Speaker 3: so nice to their customers. But really they'll keep coming
[10:10] Speaker 3: back from more punishment because the customers just don't have
[10:14] Speaker 3: other options.
[10:15] Speaker 2: And it's not just the chief executive who has changed.
[10:18] Speaker 2: Last year, John Mullen became chair. So what impact has
[10:23] Speaker 2: he had so far?
[10:24] Speaker 6: Ah?
[10:25] Speaker 3: Well, look, I think John Mullen is someone who has
[10:28] Speaker 3: a really good sense of what the average person on
[10:32] Speaker 3: the street thinks and feels. You know, he's somebody who's
[10:35] Speaker 3: really quite in touch. And that's a good thing for
[10:38] Speaker 3: Quantas because that's how this happened in the first place.
[10:41] Speaker 3: Alan Joyce was living in his own world and his
[10:43] Speaker 3: board was subservient to him. So even though they might
[10:47] Speaker 3: have had doubts about how angry Australia was at Quantas,
[10:49] Speaker 3: they weren't prepared to challenge Alan Joyce to do anything
[10:53] Speaker 3: about it. Put it this way, there's no way in
[10:55] Speaker 3: the world that Vanessa Hudson is going to be telling
[10:59] Speaker 3: John Mullen what to do. And there's no way in
[11:01] Speaker 3: the world that John Mullen's going to be too afraid
[11:03] Speaker 3: to pull Vanessa Hudson into line. And that's the way
[11:05] Speaker 3: companies are supposed to be wrong.
[11:08] Speaker 2: Okay, And so have we heard from John Mullen since
[11:11] Speaker 2: this ruling came down on Monday.
[11:13] Speaker 3: No, we haven't, and it's probably not for him to
[11:16] Speaker 3: comment at this stage. But you know, look, there's no
[11:19] Speaker 3: doubt that John Mullen has got Vanessa and her team
[11:23] Speaker 3: really focused on cultural change. But I just find it
[11:26] Speaker 3: really disappointing that given the opportunity, and everyone was pointing
[11:31] Speaker 3: this out to them at the time in twenty twenty
[11:33] Speaker 3: four that they continue to argue that the workers should
[11:37] Speaker 3: get zero compensation because that's a really hard thing for
[11:40] Speaker 3: them to defend, and it just opens them up to
[11:43] Speaker 3: the absolutely legitimate criticism that they're all taught that the
[11:46] Speaker 3: cultural change is about a surface appearance and not actually
[11:50] Speaker 3: about root and branch. You know, should we do the
[11:53] Speaker 3: right thing even when it's expensive. Should we do the
[11:56] Speaker 3: right thing even when it's painful. I think that's really agredible.
[12:00] Speaker 3: And this is the thing about company culture. Everyone thinks
[12:04] Speaker 3: that company culture is something that everyone is part of,
[12:07] Speaker 3: and in some ways that's true, but the real truth
[12:09] Speaker 3: of it is that company culture is really set by
[12:12] Speaker 3: very few people at the top, and it is the
[12:15] Speaker 3: values of the boss that emanates through the organization. And
[12:19] Speaker 3: Alan Joyce had some executives around him whose judgment was
[12:22] Speaker 3: very poor when it came to ethical decision making, and
[12:26] Speaker 3: the court has ultimately found that Joe.
[12:28] Speaker 2: There is this line in Justice Lee's ruling where he
[12:32] Speaker 2: says that quantus is pleading virtue only when cornered and
[12:36] Speaker 2: feigning contrition while harboring it. No genuine regret, and I
[12:40] Speaker 2: think that really goes to everything that he kind of
[12:43] Speaker 2: said when handing down this decision. So how does that
[12:46] Speaker 2: square with the culture that you have observed at Quantus
[12:50] Speaker 2: over y'all many many years of reporting on the company.
[12:53] Speaker 3: Well, it's confirmatory of what I was just saying about,
[12:58] Speaker 3: you know, being very sorry, as saying that you're very sorry,
[13:01] Speaker 3: but then saying to the court, well, please, we don't
[13:03] Speaker 3: really want to pay these people any money for what
[13:05] Speaker 3: we did to them. It's very hard to argue that
[13:08] Speaker 3: that is actual, deep and profound cultural change and not
[13:11] Speaker 3: just a sort of air brushing of the ugly things
[13:14] Speaker 3: from view. Bear in mind, Quantus has a lot of
[13:17] Speaker 3: reasons not to be sorry for doing this. Look at
[13:21] Speaker 3: the numbers, right, So they've spent almost a quarter of
[13:24] Speaker 3: a billion dollars on this case, one hundred and twenty
[13:27] Speaker 3: million dollars in compensation, ninety million dollar fine, at least
[13:31] Speaker 3: twenty or twenty five million dollars in legal fees, and
[13:35] Speaker 3: even then they're still ahead financially because although they've been
[13:39] Speaker 3: publicly shamed and humiliated and the chairman had to resign
[13:42] Speaker 3: and the CEO had to resign and all these all
[13:45] Speaker 3: these executives had to resign and all sorts of calamity
[13:48] Speaker 3: befell them. What actually happened is by sacking these people illegally,
[13:53] Speaker 3: they saved one hundred and twenty five million dollars every
[13:56] Speaker 3: year on wages, and they avoided eight million dollars of
[14:00] Speaker 3: equipment costs that they were going to have to invest in.
[14:04] Speaker 3: So it's been five years now, but that's almost seven
[14:07] Speaker 3: hundred million dollars they've already saved by doing what they did,
[14:11] Speaker 3: versus the two hundred and something million dollars that they've
[14:14] Speaker 3: had to pay for the infringement. So like, yeah, they
[14:18] Speaker 3: have to look like they're sorry, but I bet there's
[14:20] Speaker 3: plenty of people in the company who just very quietly
[14:22] Speaker 3: say that was a ripper decision. We've made more money
[14:25] Speaker 3: for our shareholders, and so you know, we all have
[14:28] Speaker 3: to send the right signals, but we do it again
[14:32] Speaker 3: ten times out of ten. That's something the government needs
[14:36] Speaker 3: to think really deeply about, because there's something wrong with
[14:39] Speaker 3: a country where breaking the law is cheaper than complying
[14:44] Speaker 3: with the law. We're breaking the law is so financially
[14:48] Speaker 3: rewarding that, to me, signals are problem with the law.
[14:53] Speaker 2: Well, Joe, thank you so much for your time today.
[14:55] Speaker 3: My pleasure. Thanks Realby.
[14:59] Speaker 1: You can listen back to Our You with Alan Joyce
[15:01] Speaker 1: titled Alan Joyce on Quantus Reputational Collapse at his Legacy.
[15:05] Speaker 1: You'll find it in your podcast for published Monday, July
[15:08] Speaker 1: twenty seven.
[15:21] Speaker 3: Seven.
[15:21] Speaker 1: I Am will be back tomorrow with an interview with
[15:23] Speaker 1: journalists and filmmaker Abby Martin. Over five years, she's been
[15:27] Speaker 1: investigating the hidden environmental footprint of the largest military in
[15:30] Speaker 1: the world for a new documentary, Earth's Greatest Enemy, traveling
[15:35] Speaker 1: from international wargames and military conferences to communities living with
[15:38] Speaker 1: the toxic legacy of the US military's global presence.
[15:43] Speaker 6: I mean, the US military has air forces that are
[15:46] Speaker 6: five times bigger than the next five biggest air powers combined.
[15:50] Speaker 6: The amount of waste and emissions that are just being
[15:53] Speaker 6: used just to fly around in pointless patrols and just
[15:57] Speaker 6: to maintain mission readiness. I mean, just to wrap your
[15:59] Speaker 6: mind around that. Compared to the average Australian driver road,
[16:02] Speaker 6: it would be comparable to like twenty years driving straight
[16:05] Speaker 6: to one flight mission of a Boing Pioces.
[16:08] Speaker 1: That'll be in your faet tomorrow I'm Daniel James. Thanks
[16:12] Speaker 1: for listening to seven.
[16:13] Speaker 3: I am

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