# Beyond COP: Can Brazil Chart a Path Off Fossil Fuels?

An episode of [Outrage + Optimism](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1459416461), 22 Jan 2026, 42 min.

Audio: https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/6781112bec40818e0b501b6a/e/69717f7ba6c658f1835e3b4e/media.mp3

How dependent are we - economically, politically and socially - on fossil fuels? And how do we begin to loosen that grip? As the world reels from geopolitical shocks, multilateral institutions under strain, and the United States’ withdrawal from key climate bodies, Ana Toni - CEO of COP30 - joins the show to discuss what comes next. Both for Brazil’s presidency in this crucial year, and for the wider system of climate cooperation at a moment when the old rules feel increasingly fragile. Christiana Figueres, Tom Rivett-Carnac and Paul Dickinson ask Ana what was achieved in Belém, what fell short, and why the year after the COP may matter more than the summit itself. Are we entering an era where progress is driven not by universal agreement, but by those willing to move first and bring others with them? And could reframing the transition around ending dependence, rather than negotiating targets, change the politics of climate action? 🎤 Leave us your voice notes and questions for upcoming episodes on SpeakPipe Join the conversation: Instagram @outrageoptimism LinkedIn @outrageoptimism Or get in touch with us via this form. Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks Planning: Caitlin Hanrahan Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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