# The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton

An episode of [Buried Bones - a historical true crime podcast with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1455668750), 20 May 2026, 1 h 03 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/976825e3-37d8-4387-a0cd-b24b002d91e5/7b603483-74eb-4cf4-b18e-b449014d98b6/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=3df02c7c-f75a-4bea-abe8-b24b002d91ff

In this week’s episode, Kate and Paul head to 1936 New York City where two deliverymen discover their recipient dead in her apartment. Would the crime scene investigation and toxicology of the time be enough to find the offender? Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/4buCoMc See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:03] Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the
[0:06] Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.
[0:09] Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's
[0:12] Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.
[0:16] Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most
[0:19] Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.
[0:21] Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring
[0:24] Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.
[0:26] Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime
[0:31] Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.
[0:34] Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.
[0:38] Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.
[1:01] Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how are you?
[1:02] Speaker 1: I'm doing well. How about you?
[1:04] Speaker 2: I'm doing very good.
[1:06] Speaker 1: We are in New York City for this episode, and
[1:11] Speaker 1: I lived in New York. I think we might have
[1:12] Speaker 1: talked about this. I lived in New York for about
[1:14] Speaker 1: ten years. Loved, love, loved New York City. For me,
[1:18] Speaker 1: it was a young person's city, though I don't think
[1:21] Speaker 1: I could live in New York City now. Was It
[1:24] Speaker 1: felt very hectic when I was there. You've never lived
[1:28] Speaker 1: in a really like bustling city, is that right? I mean,
[1:31] Speaker 1: I know you moved from place to place, but.
[1:34] Speaker 2: Not as an adult. I've always been in the suburbs,
[1:37] Speaker 2: you know. So I have been to New York City,
[1:42] Speaker 2: but the first time I went was right when I retired.
[1:46] Speaker 2: I was, you know, in Manhattan, and I actually was
[1:49] Speaker 2: shockingly impressed how clean and amazing architecture, you know, relative
[1:55] Speaker 2: to the big city that most of my life. I've
[1:57] Speaker 2: been around to San Francisco, and I know it's you know,
[2:01] Speaker 2: it's a great city, but man, it's kind of tough
[2:05] Speaker 2: to walk around in some of the areas in San Francisco.
[2:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, and I lived in both places. I lived in
[2:11] Speaker 1: New York and San Francisco, in La for a little bit,
[2:14] Speaker 1: and in London. So Austin's the smallest city I've ever
[2:17] Speaker 1: lived in. And yeah, in Boston, lived in Boston too. Yeah,
[2:22] Speaker 1: New York is just something special. Like I remember before Uber,
[2:26] Speaker 1: when I was hanging out with my friends and we
[2:29] Speaker 1: all lived in the East Village and there were so
[2:31] Speaker 1: many delivery options that were coming from Austin. We basically
[2:34] Speaker 1: had pizza. That was our delivery option. When I was
[2:37] Speaker 1: growing up, it was pizza and that's it. But then
[2:39] Speaker 1: I get to New York and you know, I was
[2:42] Speaker 1: twenty two or so, so a long time ago, and
[2:46] Speaker 1: you could have restaurants literally anywhere around you would come
[2:49] Speaker 1: and deliver for a small amount of money. Back then,
[2:53] Speaker 1: for me at least and my friends, we would stay out,
[2:57] Speaker 1: really we would stay up really late and they would
[2:59] Speaker 1: deliver and we literally have like five different restaurants show up. Yeah,
[3:03] Speaker 1: and I had never experienced that before, a little bit
[3:07] Speaker 1: like kind of like uber delivery now, but yeah, that's
[3:10] Speaker 1: just thing. And there was that Swiss restaurant right across
[3:13] Speaker 1: the street from us that I loved, just loved, all
[3:16] Speaker 1: loved it. Took dates there and they took me there,
[3:20] Speaker 1: and my friends finally said, you probably should spread out
[3:23] Speaker 1: and go to a different restaurants. Showing up at a
[3:26] Speaker 1: Swiss restaurant with bondu, which I will say sometimes is
[3:29] Speaker 1: not the best date option. But I love New York
[3:32] Speaker 1: and so this is while this is not a lovely story,
[3:35] Speaker 1: it didn't remind me just sort of talking about the
[3:37] Speaker 1: different streets and stuff, it reminded me of the time
[3:39] Speaker 1: that I've spent in New York, which I just adored.
[3:42] Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I've you know, I've been out to
[3:45] Speaker 2: Manhattan multiple times, just for the various projects I've been
[3:49] Speaker 2: involved with, and I thoroughly enjoy it. Now there's a
[3:53] Speaker 2: lot of hustle and bustle. I've never used the subway.
[3:56] Speaker 2: I need to get familiar with how to use that.
[4:00] Speaker 2: I made the mistake one time of getting an uber
[4:03] Speaker 2: to go from basically thirty Rock out to where actually
[4:09] Speaker 2: our agents, you know, are based out of New York,
[4:13] Speaker 2: you know which is. It was only you know, like
[4:15] Speaker 2: five blocks away, and we were sitting in traffic, and
[4:18] Speaker 2: I was watching the pedestrians pass us by, and I
[4:21] Speaker 2: was like, I would have been better just walking right, yeah.
[4:24] Speaker 2: The uber drivers like, yeah.
[4:26] Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I would. Well. I used to walk
[4:29] Speaker 1: almost home from CBS when I worked there, and it
[4:32] Speaker 1: was it's on West fifty seventh I think between tenth
[4:35] Speaker 1: and eleventh, but I can't remember avenues, and I was
[4:37] Speaker 1: like on Third Avenue, but I was also on I
[4:41] Speaker 1: think seventh Street and third Avenue I can't remember, And
[4:44] Speaker 1: so it was a long walk. But I just I
[4:47] Speaker 1: got so used to doing that, just while I same
[4:49] Speaker 1: thing with a lot of you just get used to
[4:50] Speaker 1: walking a lot a lot, and so I'm I always
[4:54] Speaker 1: like when my kids go to big cities because it's
[4:56] Speaker 1: just such a culture shock for them because we're in
[4:58] Speaker 1: the suburbs in Austin. But man, nahah, I just have
[5:02] Speaker 1: a lot of love for New York. It's a hard
[5:04] Speaker 1: it was a hard city to live in. But I
[5:06] Speaker 1: always said, you know, even if you're relaxed in New York,
[5:09] Speaker 1: somebody around you is stressed out, either your cab driver
[5:13] Speaker 1: or the people you're walking next to. Like, so there
[5:16] Speaker 1: is like to me, there's always felt this like an
[5:19] Speaker 1: undercurrent of stress. But I thrived off that, so I
[5:22] Speaker 1: didn't mind it.
[5:24] Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I'm looking forward to the next time I
[5:27] Speaker 2: can get out there. I don't know when that's going
[5:28] Speaker 2: to be, but there's a.
[5:30] Speaker 1: Chance road trip. I'll call Karen and Georgia right now
[5:34] Speaker 1: to New York. Okay, well, we are going back to
[5:38] Speaker 1: nineteen thirty six. Fantastic time. This is a very very
[5:43] Speaker 1: wealthy area in New York, in Midtown Manhattan on the
[5:46] Speaker 1: East Side, and this is an elite luxury apartment building
[5:52] Speaker 1: and that is where I am taking you today. So
[5:55] Speaker 1: let's set the scene. So we need to do a
[6:00] Speaker 1: trigger warning. This is a case that involve sexual assault,
[6:04] Speaker 1: and we are again, like I said, in a wealthy building,
[6:08] Speaker 1: and the residents include industrialists and radio executives and you know,
[6:13] Speaker 1: aristocrats that I have a I think I have a
[6:15] Speaker 1: countess in here who's a witness. So this is a
[6:18] Speaker 1: very very wealthy building. And you know, the area was
[6:22] Speaker 1: really nice at the time. Not a lot of crime,
[6:24] Speaker 1: at least, not not the level of crime that we're
[6:26] Speaker 1: going to be talking about. So you ready, this is
[6:29] Speaker 1: a big one. You're gonna have to take a lot
[6:30] Speaker 1: of notes. Okay. So we are in nineteen thirty six,
[6:35] Speaker 1: it is April, presumably beautiful, and about four fifteen pm.
[6:39] Speaker 1: There are two delivery guys who enter the lobby vestibule
[6:44] Speaker 1: of this building. So one's named Theodore Krueger, and they'll
[6:48] Speaker 1: be crucial, That's why I'm naming them. One is Theodore
[6:50] Speaker 1: Krueger and the other one is a guy named John Fiorenza.
[6:54] Speaker 1: They've come to deliver a newly re upholstered love seat
[6:58] Speaker 1: to this couple tos and they are Nancy and Lewis,
[7:03] Speaker 1: and they are very affluent, very powerful, and they have
[7:07] Speaker 1: a lot of people that they're friends within the building.
[7:10] Speaker 1: So these two delivery guys lug the sofa up to
[7:13] Speaker 1: the fourth floor, which I've done before. It's awful. And
[7:16] Speaker 1: they get to the apartment and the door is a jar.
[7:20] Speaker 1: The delivery guys assume that it was left open for them,
[7:24] Speaker 1: and inside the apartment they go in, they bring in
[7:27] Speaker 1: the love seat. They start noticing some weird things, so
[7:31] Speaker 1: the blinds are drawn, all the lights are off, and
[7:35] Speaker 1: they put the love seat in the living room like
[7:37] Speaker 1: they're supposed to, and they start kind of calling out
[7:41] Speaker 1: for one of them, for Lewis or for Nancy. They
[7:44] Speaker 1: see a light on in the bathroom and they hear
[7:47] Speaker 1: the faint sound of dripping water, and so they call
[7:51] Speaker 1: out again for missus Titterton or mister Titterton. No answer,
[7:56] Speaker 1: So Theodore pushes the door open and discovers Nancy Titterton dead.
[8:03] Speaker 1: She is half naked, laying face down in an empty bathtub,
[8:09] Speaker 1: no water in the bathtub. Theodore calls out to the
[8:12] Speaker 1: other delivery guy, John, and he says, call the police.
[8:15] Speaker 1: So the observations are done from what Theodore said he
[8:19] Speaker 1: found there. You know, next up we have a detective.
[8:23] Speaker 1: So you know, you've got this woman who is expected
[8:26] Speaker 1: at this apartment to take in this love seat, and
[8:29] Speaker 1: she's dead and these two delivery guys discover her. So
[8:33] Speaker 1: now we have an investigator, and then I'm going to
[8:35] Speaker 1: give you a chance to react to some stuff. We
[8:37] Speaker 1: have an investigator. His name is Francis Keir, and he
[8:41] Speaker 1: shows up about fifteen minutes later. This happens pretty quickly.
[8:45] Speaker 1: They came at four fifteen. He shows up fifteen minutes later,
[8:49] Speaker 1: and he makes these observations. So Nancy Titterton is on
[8:53] Speaker 1: her left side, dead in the tub. There's water dripping
[8:57] Speaker 1: from the shower head above her. Her face is pressed
[9:01] Speaker 1: onto the open drain. One of her legs is draped
[9:05] Speaker 1: over the tub's edge. The slip that she's wearing is torn.
[9:11] Speaker 1: She has stockings that are rolled down to her ankles.
[9:15] Speaker 1: And this was an interesting description. They described it as
[9:19] Speaker 1: almost like a lariat that somebody the killer used from
[9:23] Speaker 1: a pink pajama top and a red dressing jacket and
[9:28] Speaker 1: together those two things tied together, makes this sort of
[9:31] Speaker 1: lariat thing. It's tied around her neck. It's knotted around
[9:34] Speaker 1: her neck, and the detective notices that there are ligature
[9:37] Speaker 1: marks on her wrists. And that's his initial observations until
[9:41] Speaker 1: we get to the autopsy.
[9:43] Speaker 2: Yeah, initially, when you're describing Nancy's position in the tub.
[9:47] Speaker 2: You know, I was starting to go down the path.
[9:51] Speaker 2: You know, are we sure that we're dealing with homicide
[9:53] Speaker 2: or do we have an accident?
[9:55] Speaker 1: Right?
[9:56] Speaker 2: And then you describe this lariat basically a ligature made
[10:00] Speaker 2: out of sounds like both items are her clothing. Then
[10:04] Speaker 2: it's now do you have a did she attempt to
[10:07] Speaker 2: hang herself? Right? But the ligature marks on her wrists,
[10:15] Speaker 2: and this is where I've done this little bit of
[10:18] Speaker 2: a of a correction before. Is ligature is applied around
[10:26] Speaker 2: appendage or the neck to cut off blood flow, versus
[10:31] Speaker 2: bindings are used to bind risk together, ankles together, So
[10:36] Speaker 2: technically these are binding marks around her wrists. And it
[10:39] Speaker 2: sounds like the binding has been removed. Yes, this is right. Now,
[10:45] Speaker 2: this is what tells me we are dealing with a homicide.
[10:48] Speaker 2: Nancy didn't do that to herself. And then, of course,
[10:51] Speaker 2: evaluating the ligature around her neck, how is it applied?
[10:56] Speaker 2: Et cetera is also going to be a factor. Appears
[11:00] Speaker 2: at in all likelihood, you know, the offender interacted with
[11:05] Speaker 2: Nancy somewhere else in this apartment and moved her into
[11:08] Speaker 2: the bathtub, and then the question is is why do
[11:12] Speaker 2: that It was just to clean her off? Has this,
[11:15] Speaker 2: you know, to get rid of evidence in nineteen thirty six,
[11:20] Speaker 2: you know, obviously there's that would be a pretty sophisticated
[11:24] Speaker 2: offender to be doing something like that, because there's not
[11:26] Speaker 2: a lot of evidence that could be used that would
[11:29] Speaker 2: be left behind on Nancy's body by the offender to
[11:32] Speaker 2: identify him. So there's the offender is doing something by
[11:35] Speaker 2: moving Nancy from wherever she was attacked and whatever was
[11:39] Speaker 2: done to her at a different location, maybe presumably in
[11:42] Speaker 2: the bedroom, and then takes the time to move her.
[11:45] Speaker 2: So there's you know, that's that's something I'm going to
[11:48] Speaker 2: be paying attention to.
[11:50] Speaker 1: Okay, So Detective care leaves her there, alerts the medical examiner,
[12:00] Speaker 1: and then he starts looking around, and you know, now
[12:03] Speaker 1: his people are coming in too. And then the adjoining
[12:06] Speaker 1: bedroom to the bathroom there are two twin beds, and
[12:09] Speaker 1: so you had already alluded to this. One of the
[12:12] Speaker 1: bed spreads is rumpled and smeared with three lumps of
[12:16] Speaker 1: paint or mud. I thought feces at first, but they
[12:20] Speaker 1: say no, it's paint or mud. And then they find this.
[12:24] Speaker 1: They find a torn gray skirt, a garter belt, and
[12:29] Speaker 1: a fountain pen are all on the floor, and the
[12:34] Speaker 1: hooks and eyes from the undergardments are also on the floor.
[12:38] Speaker 1: So it sounds like a violent, at least attempt at
[12:41] Speaker 1: sexual assault. Is that what it sounds like to you?
[12:44] Speaker 2: Now? You know, it appears that Nancy was fully dressed,
[12:48] Speaker 2: possibly was in the middle of writing something with the
[12:51] Speaker 2: fountain pen, and then she's attacked. I'm presuming that this
[12:55] Speaker 2: is probably a sexually motivated crime. Why can't they tell
[13:00] Speaker 2: if it's paint or mud? That should be pretty obvious.
[13:03] Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know why. I don't know why they
[13:05] Speaker 1: can't tell. Now, we haven't had any of our experts
[13:10] Speaker 1: come in yet, so as of right now, this is
[13:14] Speaker 1: what Detective Kier is saying, is that it looks like
[13:16] Speaker 1: paint or mud. There's no sign of a break in,
[13:18] Speaker 1: so of course, Kerr says, Okay, I wonder if she
[13:21] Speaker 1: knew the person we know, a gun is just as
[13:24] Speaker 1: good as any kicking in a door to get somebody
[13:27] Speaker 1: to open up the door, or.
[13:29] Speaker 2: Just a knock on the door and you push the
[13:31] Speaker 2: door open.
[13:31] Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that, I know that. Like throughout history,
[13:35] Speaker 1: I have heard that if there's no sign of a
[13:36] Speaker 1: break in. That means they know the person. No, not
[13:38] Speaker 1: really no, No. So there are valuables in the apartment
[13:44] Speaker 1: that seem to be untouched. There has been five dollars
[13:49] Speaker 1: stolen from Nancy's purse, which is about one hundred and
[13:52] Speaker 1: twenty bucks. Again, I always kind of go back to
[13:55] Speaker 1: how do they know that exactly? I mean, this is
[13:57] Speaker 1: a woman who goes out and spends money. Presumably she
[14:00] Speaker 1: she you know, had a job, and so I don't
[14:03] Speaker 1: understand still how they can say it. I just don't
[14:05] Speaker 1: like I would not know, and I see my mom
[14:08] Speaker 1: almost every day, I would not know how much money
[14:09] Speaker 1: is in her purse. I don't know if it what mean,
[14:11] Speaker 1: does your wife know how much money is in your wallet?
[14:14] Speaker 1: I just don't get it. I don't know, Okay, and
[14:18] Speaker 1: we don't know why. And that's okay, Paul, no comment,
[14:24] Speaker 1: no comments.
[14:25] Speaker 2: You're read to get me in trouble.
[14:27] Speaker 1: Moving on, okay. So let's talk about forensics. So various
[14:31] Speaker 1: items are subjected to get ready for this because I
[14:34] Speaker 1: don't know what it is. The silver nitrate method of
[14:38] Speaker 1: developing fingerprints, yep, and one more fancy thing, and then
[14:43] Speaker 1: you can react to both her clothing and her bedspread
[14:46] Speaker 1: are examined with an ultraviolet light. And I know that
[14:50] Speaker 1: was what my guy from American Charlo accused, also ultraviolet
[14:54] Speaker 1: light to look for blood, but that's no longer the
[14:57] Speaker 1: most effective thing I know.
[14:58] Speaker 2: Yeah, so silver Knight R. You know, they're for fingerprints.
[15:04] Speaker 2: You have both aqueous as well as lipid based secretions
[15:09] Speaker 2: that when you touch an object, both types, you know,
[15:12] Speaker 2: water based and fat based secretions are left behind, and
[15:18] Speaker 2: so certain you know, black powder will just adhere to these,
[15:23] Speaker 2: you know, these secretions, versus if you have paper, it's
[15:29] Speaker 2: porous and so the paper actually absorbs the fingerprint secretions
[15:35] Speaker 2: into the paper itself. So now you have to use
[15:38] Speaker 2: a liquid chemical in order to be able to visualize
[15:43] Speaker 2: these latent prints. And so you can use something like
[15:47] Speaker 2: ninhydrant that goes after the protein a specific amino acid.
[15:52] Speaker 2: Silver nitrate is something that goes after the lipid based
[15:56] Speaker 2: or the fat based secretion within the matrix of the
[15:59] Speaker 2: pape itself. Now, when you start talking about the use
[16:05] Speaker 2: of a UV light, it's actually is not a good
[16:10] Speaker 2: light source for blood. Blood actually absorbs ultraviolet light and
[16:14] Speaker 2: makes blood darker. And if blood is on a dark
[16:16] Speaker 2: surface like OJ Simpson's black socks, you will not see
[16:20] Speaker 2: the blood. But semen fluoresces under UV light, and today
[16:27] Speaker 2: we have tunable alternate light sources, so we can change
[16:31] Speaker 2: the wavelengths and the types of goggles, the color of
[16:34] Speaker 2: the goggles what are called barrier filters, in order to
[16:37] Speaker 2: be able to see different levels of fluorescent on different
[16:40] Speaker 2: types of surfaces. So UV light is a is a
[16:45] Speaker 2: reasonable tool to use, but it's somewhat limited.
[16:48] Speaker 1: And luminol is blood only. Is that right?
[16:52] Speaker 2: Yes, we only use luminol too if phosphores is in
[16:56] Speaker 2: the presence of the heme group within blood itself, and
[17:00] Speaker 2: we only resort to luminol when we have basically bloodstains
[17:05] Speaker 2: that we cannot visually see.
[17:06] Speaker 1: Okay, got it. So detective care tries to find fingerprints
[17:11] Speaker 1: from the bed frame, but they're too smudged to be useful.
[17:15] Speaker 1: And I mean, you know, she's married, so there's everybody's
[17:19] Speaker 1: fingerprints are going to be around here. She probably had
[17:21] Speaker 1: a I'm sure she had a housekeeper, so I don't know.
[17:25] Speaker 1: But he tries he had the twin bed that was
[17:28] Speaker 1: messed up, dismantled, and he sends this along with you know,
[17:33] Speaker 1: a lot of other stuff that he finds to the
[17:36] Speaker 1: Police Research Laboratory in New York. He sends the bed,
[17:39] Speaker 1: the bedspread, a pair of pajamas, a pillowcase, a blue smock,
[17:45] Speaker 1: lavender bathrobe, and a bra, and that actually kind of
[17:50] Speaker 1: becomes a big deal. We're going to talk about this lab.
[17:52] Speaker 1: It's a very famous lab, the police lab.
[17:55] Speaker 2: Well, to be frank, I'm quite impressed by the effort
[17:58] Speaker 2: that he's putting, you know, forward for a nineteen thirty
[18:01] Speaker 2: six crime scene investigation. You know that that's pretty impressive.
[18:05] Speaker 1: The police lab in New York has historical significance. And
[18:11] Speaker 1: you know, I'll talk about that in a little bit
[18:12] Speaker 1: because we have who I would describe as the Bernard
[18:15] Speaker 1: Spillsbury of toxicology works at this police lab, Alexander Getler.
[18:20] Speaker 1: You've probably heard of his name, I think, but maybe not.
[18:23] Speaker 2: No, I haven't.
[18:23] Speaker 1: He's very very well known. But i'll tell you in
[18:25] Speaker 1: a little bit. Okay, Now we've got the medical examiner.
[18:28] Speaker 1: His name is Thomas Gonzalez. He comes and he makes
[18:32] Speaker 1: a few preliminary observations. So he says that her body
[18:38] Speaker 1: is moist. And what's interesting is that her body is moist,
[18:43] Speaker 1: but her feet are dry. Now one leg is over
[18:46] Speaker 1: the side of the bathtub, but he's saying both feet
[18:49] Speaker 1: are dry. Her body temperature and state of rigor indicates
[18:53] Speaker 1: that she had been strangled between eleven and eleven thirty
[18:57] Speaker 1: that day, So that is five hours later. It sounds
[19:02] Speaker 1: like the guys come at four fifteen, and they come
[19:05] Speaker 1: at you know, four thirty, so five hours later. Okay,
[19:10] Speaker 1: So the body is moist but her feet are dry.
[19:13] Speaker 1: Is there a clue in there somewhere?
[19:15] Speaker 2: There must be, Well, she wasn't upright standing in that
[19:19] Speaker 2: tub when the water had been turned on. It's just
[19:23] Speaker 2: all it does, you know? At this point indicate to
[19:25] Speaker 2: me that the offender moved her from the bedroom to
[19:28] Speaker 2: the bathtub. She's already dead in all likelihood, and he's
[19:32] Speaker 2: placing her in the bathtub, turning the water on, and
[19:34] Speaker 2: the feet just aren't getting wet.
[19:36] Speaker 1: Okay, Well, it looks like he plans to do the
[19:39] Speaker 1: autopsy at Bellevue Mortuary. So he says to his guys,
[19:43] Speaker 1: go ahead and take her body and I will do
[19:45] Speaker 1: the autopsy tomorrow morning. When they pick her body up,
[19:49] Speaker 1: they find a cleanly cut cord underneath her body in
[19:53] Speaker 1: the bathtub. It's thirteen inches long and a quarter inch thick,
[19:58] Speaker 1: and it matches is the binding marks not literature. It
[20:03] Speaker 1: matches the binding markings on her wrist. So she's been
[20:06] Speaker 1: laying on top of these bindings.
[20:08] Speaker 2: It sounds like, no, you know, it's it's cleanly cut.
[20:13] Speaker 2: Now is when they say it's cleanly cut. Is this
[20:17] Speaker 2: from the offender cutting it off her wrists or did
[20:20] Speaker 2: the offender cut it from an object within her apartment
[20:24] Speaker 2: like a lamp cord or did he bring it with her?
[20:26] Speaker 2: You know, So that's where if the offender is cutting
[20:30] Speaker 2: it off her wrists and then also throwing it into
[20:31] Speaker 2: the bathtub, it's like, well, why is he doing that.
[20:35] Speaker 2: He's turning the water on. I think he's doing this
[20:37] Speaker 2: all for evidence issues, you know, and thinking that maybe
[20:41] Speaker 2: they can get fingerprints off of her skin. So that's
[20:44] Speaker 2: why he's running water over her. But it'll be interesting
[20:47] Speaker 2: to see how this develops.
[20:48] Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of clues, a lot of stuff
[20:50] Speaker 1: going on here, So keep up, keep up, pull okay,
[20:56] Speaker 1: I'll try.
[20:57] Speaker 2: I know.
[20:57] Speaker 1: So now we are at Belvy Mortuary and doctor Gonzalez
[21:01] Speaker 1: is conducting the autopsy. The next day, he finds that
[21:05] Speaker 1: she has been sexually assaulted and that she has been strangled.
[21:09] Speaker 1: This is what he says happened. Her larnax has hemorrhaged.
[21:13] Speaker 1: There were also three slight internal hemorrhages of the scalp.
[21:18] Speaker 1: Contusions above and below her left eye appear to have
[21:22] Speaker 1: been caused by the pressure of her head on the
[21:25] Speaker 1: tub's open drain. There is no evidence of water in
[21:29] Speaker 1: her lungs. Although he attempts to recover fingerprints from her body,
[21:35] Speaker 1: he can't lift anything that's useful. Everything has been destroyed
[21:40] Speaker 1: by the water. And then you have to tell me
[21:41] Speaker 1: if that's even a thing recovering it off of a
[21:44] Speaker 1: wet body or anybody. And then he takes fingernail scrapings
[21:48] Speaker 1: and sends them along with the clothes found on her
[21:52] Speaker 1: body in the tub. He sends those to the lap too.
[21:56] Speaker 2: Well, No, it actually sounds very straightforward. Have these these
[22:01] Speaker 2: contusions to her head, that is the offender, you know,
[22:04] Speaker 2: beating her on the head to get compliance and control,
[22:07] Speaker 2: you know, the bathtub drain injuries, if you will, I mean,
[22:11] Speaker 2: that's just post post mortem stuff that that's happening. So
[22:15] Speaker 2: he's ruling those out as being anything that the offender
[22:18] Speaker 2: did to the victim. You know, I'm impressed that he's
[22:22] Speaker 2: collecting fingernails, scraping, So they really couldn't do anything outside
[22:26] Speaker 2: of identifying is there, you know, human tissue or blood
[22:29] Speaker 2: the present unitor there, or looking for trace evidence. You
[22:32] Speaker 2: can have fibers from the offender underneath her fingernails, the
[22:37] Speaker 2: hemorrhaging around the larynx. This is entirely consistent with strangulation.
[22:42] Speaker 2: You know, there could be a question as to whether
[22:46] Speaker 2: was there any manual strangulation that occurred prior to this
[22:49] Speaker 2: ligature being applied around her neck. The use of these
[22:54] Speaker 2: two articles of clothing that was used to actually make
[22:57] Speaker 2: the ligature is going to be a very broad type
[23:00] Speaker 2: of surface versus this very narrow binding used on her wrists,
[23:05] Speaker 2: and so you know, this will be almost a kind
[23:08] Speaker 2: of like a soft ligature strangulation, and it'd be pretty
[23:13] Speaker 2: obvious to modern pathologists if manual strangulation had occurred prior
[23:18] Speaker 2: to this this very broad ligature being applied. Body temp
[23:22] Speaker 2: and rigor. You know, as I've talked about before that
[23:26] Speaker 2: there's so many variables and you can't really narrow the
[23:31] Speaker 2: window of time with too much confidence. You know, but
[23:36] Speaker 2: you know, if she's still fairly warm after five hours,
[23:40] Speaker 2: and depending on the apartment temperature and everything else, it
[23:43] Speaker 2: at least does provide some information as in terms of
[23:47] Speaker 2: recovering fingerprints off of human skin, that has never been
[23:52] Speaker 2: able to be reliably done. I've even been involved in
[23:55] Speaker 2: experiments on dead bodies trying to you know, place finger
[23:59] Speaker 2: prints and known locations and to try to develop them.
[24:03] Speaker 2: It is a tough tough thing to do. Every now
[24:05] Speaker 2: and then you get lucky because there's something unusual about
[24:08] Speaker 2: the print that was left behind that allows it to
[24:10] Speaker 2: be visualized. But you know, the fact that they were
[24:13] Speaker 2: even attempting it back in nineteen thirty six is pretty impressive.
[24:17] Speaker 1: These days, we would say, when we find out some
[24:20] Speaker 1: more that their attempts are off the mark, but the
[24:23] Speaker 1: fact that they're attempting all of this stuff is pretty amazing. Okay,
[24:26] Speaker 1: Kira has fifty detectives interviewing residents of the building. You
[24:31] Speaker 1: have to know because of the victim and who the
[24:34] Speaker 1: victim is is. She is married to a NBC executive,
[24:38] Speaker 1: and she herself has worked for a publisher and she
[24:42] Speaker 1: developed a mystery imprint for readers, and she had just
[24:47] Speaker 1: gotten a deal on her first short story. I think
[24:50] Speaker 1: she wanted to be a novelist, and so it's mostly
[24:53] Speaker 1: the money. So this is a very affluent couple in
[24:56] Speaker 1: a very affluent building in a really, really nice area.
[25:00] Speaker 1: And this at the time was the largest single homicide
[25:04] Speaker 1: investigation in New York City history.
[25:06] Speaker 2: Okay, now, may I ask you how old is Nancy.
[25:10] Speaker 1: She's thirty four?
[25:11] Speaker 2: Okay, all right, because I had a vision. I envisioned
[25:16] Speaker 2: I was dealing with an elderly lady. So now you
[25:19] Speaker 2: have a You have a thirty four year old woman
[25:22] Speaker 2: that potentially could somebody as you know, see her and
[25:26] Speaker 2: is attracted to her and decides she's going to be
[25:29] Speaker 2: a victim.
[25:29] Speaker 1: Right and her husband is at work during this whole time.
[25:33] Speaker 1: So the husband has never really even considered a suspect.
[25:37] Speaker 1: So I'll just take that off, you know, because the
[25:40] Speaker 1: first thing I thought it was the husband, but they
[25:43] Speaker 1: conclude pretty quickly that he's a busy guy and he
[25:45] Speaker 1: was accounted for. Okay, so we get to I mentioned
[25:50] Speaker 1: fifty detectives on this case. Huge story media latches on,
[25:54] Speaker 1: no surprise, So now we have to look at the
[25:57] Speaker 1: timeline and then I'll tell you more about Nancy and
[25:59] Speaker 1: her husband, and so they start talking to her friends.
[26:03] Speaker 1: So the morning of her murder, Nancy had spoken to
[26:07] Speaker 1: her friend whose name was Georgia Mansbridge. She had talked
[26:11] Speaker 1: to her between ten thirty and eleven that morning and
[26:14] Speaker 1: they were going to have a dinner date. So they
[26:16] Speaker 1: were planning it and Georgia said she was in a
[26:18] Speaker 1: great moon, you know, nothing was out of the ordinary.
[26:22] Speaker 1: So then there is a seventeen year old delivery boy
[26:27] Speaker 1: and he says that he tried to deliver some drive
[26:30] Speaker 1: cleaning to her apartment at eleven thirty. So Georgia says
[26:34] Speaker 1: she was talking to her on the phone from ten
[26:36] Speaker 1: thirty and eleven, and then this seventeen year old shows up,
[26:40] Speaker 1: knocks on the door. No one answers, and they are
[26:42] Speaker 1: putting her I know, we talked about sort of how
[26:45] Speaker 1: how wide ranging rigor and liver temperature is. But they're
[26:50] Speaker 1: putting her death at somewhere between maybe like eleven and
[26:53] Speaker 1: twelve or something like that. But we don't know, so
[26:55] Speaker 1: she's not answering. She also could have been doing something
[26:58] Speaker 1: else and not heard the door. Who knows. So what
[27:01] Speaker 1: Detective Care things happened is that Nancy knew the killer.
[27:05] Speaker 1: You know, we'll see and let this person into her apartment.
[27:10] Speaker 1: The killer attacks Nancy, binds her hands and assaults her
[27:14] Speaker 1: and then strangles her and then puts her body in
[27:16] Speaker 1: the tub. I mean, I think you and I, with
[27:19] Speaker 1: the exception of it has to be somebody she knows,
[27:21] Speaker 1: would probably agree with that, right.
[27:24] Speaker 2: Yeah, in terms of what happened to Nancy, that seems
[27:26] Speaker 2: like the logical flow.
[27:30] Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's think about her life right now and
[27:33] Speaker 1: just see. You know who she's close to. I said.
[27:36] Speaker 1: She's thirty four. She's described as shy and soft spoken.
[27:40] Speaker 1: She's a novelist, she is attractive, and she is originally
[27:45] Speaker 1: from Dayton, Ohio. She moved to New York in nineteen
[27:48] Speaker 1: twenty five, and she worked for this literary agency that
[27:52] Speaker 1: I told you about. Very smart and accomplished in her
[27:55] Speaker 1: own right. It was at this agency that she met
[27:57] Speaker 1: her husband, who is thirty, so there's a three year difference.
[28:02] Speaker 1: He's British. He was an executive at NBC and they
[28:07] Speaker 1: got married in nineteen twenty nine, so seven years earlier,
[28:11] Speaker 1: and by all accounts, they had a great marriage, loving couple,
[28:15] Speaker 1: and when this happens, She is buried at the University
[28:20] Speaker 1: Funeral Chapel. There are a few hundred people attend the service.
[28:25] Speaker 1: Seven hundred people crowd outside. I'm not sure it's because
[28:28] Speaker 1: Nancy was beloved or anything. It's you know, the sheer
[28:32] Speaker 1: surprise of a couple like this and this horrible thing
[28:35] Speaker 1: happening to her. And also if you think about security
[28:39] Speaker 1: and these buildings and sort of going into a building
[28:42] Speaker 1: and doing this, I think there is that sort of
[28:46] Speaker 1: like we are not safe in our own beds fear
[28:49] Speaker 1: that people were having like this is an untouchable couple.
[28:52] Speaker 1: I mean, that's why it would have felt like an
[28:53] Speaker 1: untouchable couple if this could happen to them. It's definitely,
[28:56] Speaker 1: you know, certain it could be happened. It could happen
[28:58] Speaker 1: to me too.
[29:00] Speaker 2: And they're living on the fourth floor, so the offender
[29:02] Speaker 2: has to get up to the fourth floor and out,
[29:04] Speaker 2: you know, and not be witnessed. And then I you know,
[29:08] Speaker 2: of course there's you know, a door to the apartment.
[29:13] Speaker 2: From a victimology standpoint, did the routinely lock that? Then
[29:17] Speaker 2: there's the idea of some of these places have security
[29:22] Speaker 2: that you have to get through just to get into
[29:24] Speaker 2: the lobby of the downstairs apartment complex, you know, so
[29:28] Speaker 2: that that would be all. Part of the questions I
[29:30] Speaker 2: would have is what did the offender have to get
[29:32] Speaker 2: through to get up to Nancy herself.
[29:35] Speaker 1: I think one of the things that the media brought up,
[29:38] Speaker 1: because there are some other incidents that preceded this in
[29:42] Speaker 1: this neighborhood, the media brought up security that happens at
[29:45] Speaker 1: these buildings. Some had dormants, some didn't. It doesn't sound
[29:48] Speaker 1: like Nancy's did, but the doors are locked and secured,
[29:53] Speaker 1: or if there are dorman, they're there briefly. They're not
[29:56] Speaker 1: like at a security desk like you might find today.
[29:59] Speaker 1: And so this case actually made New Yorkers re examine
[30:03] Speaker 1: their own security, and especially because you know, these were,
[30:06] Speaker 1: like I said, kind of untouchable people. Neighbors in this
[30:10] Speaker 1: neighborhood say a couple of things happened that were disturbing
[30:13] Speaker 1: before Nancy's murder. One was there was an attempted break
[30:17] Speaker 1: in nearby where actually two men were able to almost
[30:21] Speaker 1: push their way into someone's apartment, but their domestic servant
[30:26] Speaker 1: managed to find these guys out push them out. And
[30:29] Speaker 1: then there is a countess who lives around the corner
[30:32] Speaker 1: from Nancy, who says that she saw a man tried
[30:37] Speaker 1: to push his way into a building and then and
[30:40] Speaker 1: actually before had kind of tried to conn his way
[30:42] Speaker 1: in there always stay there or my grandmother stay there
[30:44] Speaker 1: or something like that, and ended up not being able
[30:47] Speaker 1: to get in the building. But this was unusual apparently,
[30:51] Speaker 1: So we had a couple of these which which could
[30:53] Speaker 1: be you know, connected to Nancy. But now that we've
[30:57] Speaker 1: done this with a lot of stories where we've heard
[31:00] Speaker 1: that there are a lot of break ins or something
[31:02] Speaker 1: is happening, almost like there are thieves, criminals, they're testing things,
[31:06] Speaker 1: and then it turns out to not be that. So,
[31:09] Speaker 1: you know, I sometimes I just take these with a
[31:10] Speaker 1: grain of salt. But it's good to know, you know,
[31:13] Speaker 1: right that there are people roaming around and it's unusual
[31:16] Speaker 1: for just at least the past few weeks.
[31:18] Speaker 2: What do you think, Well, that's definitely something to pay
[31:22] Speaker 2: attention to for the mere fact that it's unusual. From
[31:25] Speaker 2: my perspective, you know, this is a wealthy area. Just
[31:29] Speaker 2: by the fact that these people have valuables, significant valuables
[31:36] Speaker 2: inside the residents is going to draw a criminal element
[31:39] Speaker 2: out to this location. This is New York City, so
[31:45] Speaker 2: you're going to be seeing a fair amount of crime
[31:50] Speaker 2: even in these wealthy areas, at least attempting to commit
[31:53] Speaker 2: crimes like these burglaries. But I do pay attention to
[31:57] Speaker 2: the fact that, Yeah, all of a sudden, there seems
[31:58] Speaker 2: to be a spike in terms of men trying to
[32:03] Speaker 2: get into these relatively secure dwellings. Could they be, you know,
[32:10] Speaker 2: Nancy's attacker. Possibly? You have to consider that the fact
[32:14] Speaker 2: that Nancy is attacked on the fourth floor in her building,
[32:19] Speaker 2: that suggests to me that maybe she was somewhat targeted.
[32:23] Speaker 2: And right now, the assumption is this is somebody who
[32:26] Speaker 2: came from outside the building, But we also have other
[32:29] Speaker 2: residents that live inside the building that see Nancy all
[32:33] Speaker 2: the time. Could you have an internal occupant to that
[32:37] Speaker 2: building being Nancy's killer That has to be considered as well.
[32:41] Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think Detective Care is doing all of that,
[32:43] Speaker 1: which is good. I mean, most impressively to me is that,
[32:46] Speaker 1: like you said, he's sending out all of this evidence.
[32:49] Speaker 1: So the court arrives at the New York Police Department's
[32:53] Speaker 1: police Laboratory in Brooklyn. This lab become sort of the
[32:58] Speaker 1: blueprint for what labs should be for all major cities.
[33:03] Speaker 1: This was groundbreaking. This lab. There's a guy there named
[33:06] Speaker 1: Alexander Gettler. He eventually becomes known as the father of
[33:11] Speaker 1: forensic toxicology. He's a biochemist. They send the cord to
[33:17] Speaker 1: Gettler and he has an assistant, Henry Schwartz, and they're
[33:20] Speaker 1: both at the office of the Chief Medical Examiner, and
[33:23] Speaker 1: they start analyzing the evidence that's been collected from Nancy's
[33:27] Speaker 1: crime scene. So these guys know what they're doing. I
[33:30] Speaker 1: told you, I mean, Getler is really well known. So
[33:35] Speaker 1: he does something and I need to I need to
[33:38] Speaker 1: tell you you're going to have to pick this is a
[33:39] Speaker 1: door number one or door number two. So okay, you ready?
[33:43] Speaker 1: This was the bad news about Getler. So this is
[33:47] Speaker 1: the best intentions that I get with Oscar Heinrich, where
[33:50] Speaker 1: he seems to do something really impressive, but it is
[33:54] Speaker 1: not the correct thing to do because he doesn't know
[33:56] Speaker 1: any better. Because you know, they haven't explored this yet.
[33:59] Speaker 1: Getler doing this. Do you want to hear the test
[34:02] Speaker 1: that he runs, which is pretty intense, or do you
[34:06] Speaker 1: want to hear why this wouldn't work? Or do you
[34:09] Speaker 1: want to play a very fun game of you try
[34:11] Speaker 1: to guess why this wouldn't work, and we'll see what happens.
[34:16] Speaker 2: I want to okay, I want to hear what test
[34:18] Speaker 2: he's trying to do, and I'll say, what if I
[34:21] Speaker 2: agree with it or not?
[34:22] Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let me get through it. Okay. So this
[34:25] Speaker 1: is what he does. He has her body. He doesn't
[34:28] Speaker 1: find any alcohol or other chemicals like ether or chloroform,
[34:32] Speaker 1: or drugs or anything else in her system. Now that
[34:36] Speaker 1: he would have known in toxicology in nineteen thirty six
[34:38] Speaker 1: was pretty decent, so he would have been able to
[34:40] Speaker 1: figure that out. But this is what he does, okay,
[34:44] Speaker 1: and I've never heard of this before. He compares the
[34:46] Speaker 1: plasma chloride levels from the left and the right side
[34:50] Speaker 1: of her heart. He thinks that she has inhaled water,
[34:54] Speaker 1: but it's not in her lungs, according to doctor Gonzalez,
[34:58] Speaker 1: so he thinks that she was alive when she was
[35:02] Speaker 1: placed in the tub. So this is Techniquely explain why
[35:08] Speaker 1: he thinks this. This technique is based on the idea
[35:10] Speaker 1: that if a person inhales fresh water, not salt water,
[35:14] Speaker 1: it will cross the A level. Ore. Is that how
[35:18] Speaker 1: you say that bed to the left.
[35:19] Speaker 2: Aol avioli No, within the heart.
[35:23] Speaker 1: Yeah, it says it will cross the aviolar bed to
[35:27] Speaker 1: the left heart, causing hemo dilution there and lower chloride
[35:33] Speaker 1: levels in comparison to the right heart blood. Do me
[35:38] Speaker 1: read that again.
[35:40] Speaker 2: It's so much simpler to determine is there water in
[35:43] Speaker 2: her lungs than to sit here and do some fancy
[35:48] Speaker 2: chloride between the right and the left side of the heart.
[35:53] Speaker 2: I've been at autopsies. I see how pathologists collect samples.
[35:57] Speaker 2: You know, this is not going to be something that
[36:01] Speaker 2: I believe is informative or even legit. You know, considering
[36:06] Speaker 2: the type of sample that he's dealing with. I put
[36:09] Speaker 2: more weight on what the pathologist is observing. She did
[36:12] Speaker 2: not drown, that's the bottom line. So why do this
[36:15] Speaker 2: test that seems like a waste of time.
[36:17] Speaker 1: I think he doesn't believe it, I guess, or he
[36:20] Speaker 1: has these chemicals and he wants to prove something I
[36:23] Speaker 1: don't know. You know, these guys just like Heinrich. You know,
[36:25] Speaker 1: I loved I loved Oscar Heinrich. He was a centerpiece
[36:28] Speaker 1: of my book. But you know he was wrong. This
[36:31] Speaker 1: was the you know, people die when they started using anesthesia.
[36:35] Speaker 1: So this is where we are with this. So he says,
[36:38] Speaker 1: let me just finish out this wild test of his.
[36:41] Speaker 1: He says that there are thirty five milligrams fewer salt
[36:45] Speaker 1: in the left side than on the right side of
[36:47] Speaker 1: the heart. And of course you know the note is
[36:50] Speaker 1: well chlora it's not stable after death. So this is
[36:53] Speaker 1: not a definitive thing. But this is something that other
[36:57] Speaker 1: people have used in the past. That's the news for Getler.
[37:01] Speaker 1: Then we have a lot of good news, unless you
[37:03] Speaker 1: want to disparage his findings anymore.
[37:05] Speaker 2: For Getler, you know, I think you know what I
[37:09] Speaker 2: said before is is that this this is completely unnecessary,
[37:12] Speaker 2: and I just debunket you know, straight up, I'm going
[37:15] Speaker 2: to rely on to pathologists findings.
[37:17] Speaker 1: Okay, So we know that that she was strangled and
[37:20] Speaker 1: then it sounds like dumped into the bathtub. So he
[37:23] Speaker 1: finds Getler finds several blonde hairs that appear to be
[37:27] Speaker 1: Nancy's on her shirt in her bathrobe. But then he
[37:31] Speaker 1: examines the bedspread and he finds something really different. There
[37:36] Speaker 1: is a stiff white hair measuring just over a half
[37:41] Speaker 1: inch long. He looks in the microscope and he says,
[37:44] Speaker 1: it's a horse hair. Okay, So when he compares the
[37:48] Speaker 1: horse hair found on Nancy's bedspread two the padding in
[37:54] Speaker 1: the newly upholstered love seat, it's a match. So neither
[38:00] Speaker 1: of these delivery guys, John or Theodore had gone into
[38:05] Speaker 1: the bedroom, they say, So, what he assumes is that
[38:09] Speaker 1: somehow the horse hair became attached to one of the
[38:13] Speaker 1: investigating officer's clothes, and that the officer had then inavertently
[38:17] Speaker 1: transferred it from the living room where the sofa was,
[38:19] Speaker 1: to the bedroom. So this horse hair is so does
[38:23] Speaker 1: that sound right? I mean we talk about transfer all
[38:25] Speaker 1: the time, and you know they're not wearing the whole
[38:28] Speaker 1: you know, hazmat suits that they should have been wearing.
[38:30] Speaker 2: Well, even if you're wearing you know, a TAIVEK protective clothing,
[38:36] Speaker 2: you still have the potential that you could track hair
[38:39] Speaker 2: from within Nancy's residence from one location to another location.
[38:43] Speaker 2: You know, this is just you know, trace evidence is
[38:47] Speaker 2: prone to these you know, would call secondary tertiary type transfers.
[38:51] Speaker 2: So you know now that Gettler is saying, well, the
[38:56] Speaker 2: white hair found from the bedroom is matching the hair
[38:59] Speaker 2: from the know the what the deliveryman, the piece of
[39:02] Speaker 2: furniture that the deliveryman that tells me, Okay, this is
[39:06] Speaker 2: all likely just cross contamination within the crime scene itself,
[39:11] Speaker 2: which is not unexpected. And the reality is it's like, oh,
[39:15] Speaker 2: it'd be significant. Did the offender bring this this horse
[39:18] Speaker 2: hair into the bedroom. But by the time that that
[39:23] Speaker 2: hair is collected in the crime scene processing, not only
[39:27] Speaker 2: do you have the delivery men, but you and they
[39:30] Speaker 2: didn't go into the bedroom, so it go Okay, they didn't.
[39:32] Speaker 2: They're not the ones with the cross contamination. But now
[39:35] Speaker 2: you have multiple you know, investigators csis that are inside
[39:39] Speaker 2: this house. And so at this point, with what I'm hearing,
[39:42] Speaker 2: I'm saying that horse hair means nothing to the case
[39:46] Speaker 2: at all.
[39:46] Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about the cord, because I think Getler
[39:50] Speaker 1: thinks that might be the key to this case. Is
[39:52] Speaker 1: that cord that they found under her body that belongs
[39:55] Speaker 1: you know, that is part of the bindings.
[39:57] Speaker 2: It sounds like, and hopefully you're tell me about the
[40:00] Speaker 2: paint or mud that was found on the bed, right.
[40:02] Speaker 1: I think so. So Getler looks at the cord and
[40:07] Speaker 1: he says, it is saturated with water, you know, because
[40:11] Speaker 1: it was under her and she was wet, and he
[40:14] Speaker 1: said that the cord swelled to sixty size twine. He says,
[40:19] Speaker 1: it is a five ply cord with a diameter of
[40:23] Speaker 1: one eighth of an inch, and it's made of low
[40:27] Speaker 1: grade Italian hemp jute and something called isulstal, which is
[40:34] Speaker 1: a fiber made from a unique agave plant. Oh okay,
[40:39] Speaker 1: So this is unusual. And what they believe is that
[40:45] Speaker 1: this kind of cord would have come from, you know,
[40:48] Speaker 1: a specific these you know, these chords all come from
[40:50] Speaker 1: specific companies. And they start looking around and calling companies
[40:54] Speaker 1: all over the place. They get to Pennsylvania, and I
[40:58] Speaker 1: think this is a good detective work personally, and they
[41:01] Speaker 1: call Hanover Cordage Company, which is in York, Pennsylvania, and
[41:07] Speaker 1: they request a list of recently compiled orders because they
[41:10] Speaker 1: say this is a cord, and they say the cortage
[41:13] Speaker 1: company says, this cord is unique to us. So they
[41:16] Speaker 1: have them looked through the customers and there are people
[41:20] Speaker 1: who have ordered these cords. And then they read through
[41:22] Speaker 1: the names and they see a very familiar name, Theodore Krueger,
[41:27] Speaker 1: who owns the upholstery shop on Third Avenue in Manhattan
[41:32] Speaker 1: and do you remember Theodore's name. Why he's important?
[41:37] Speaker 2: Well, he was one of the delivery guys.
[41:39] Speaker 1: You got it right, yep. A roll of that twine
[41:43] Speaker 1: was sent to his shop one day before the murder.
[41:46] Speaker 1: And remember the horse hair.
[41:47] Speaker 2: Okay, well, right now, the horse hair is out of
[41:50] Speaker 2: the picture as far as I'm concerned, just because the
[41:52] Speaker 2: argument of cross contamination unless Krueger's lying and he actually
[41:57] Speaker 2: did go into the bedroom, right. I've done it in
[42:01] Speaker 2: terms of you know, tracking down, you know, suppliers of
[42:07] Speaker 2: whatever type of evidence is present out of crime set.
[42:09] Speaker 2: I've done this many times over the course of my career,
[42:12] Speaker 2: and oftentimes it ends up being you can't really drill
[42:17] Speaker 2: down and narrow the suspect pool. But every now and
[42:20] Speaker 2: then you get lucky. And they got lucky in this
[42:24] Speaker 2: case because now you have a company saying we're the
[42:27] Speaker 2: only ones that manufacture this specific cordage. That's beautiful from
[42:33] Speaker 2: a physical evidence standpoint, and now yeah, give me your customers.
[42:38] Speaker 2: The fact that that cortage was sent to a person
[42:42] Speaker 2: who admittedly had been inside Nancy's apartment the day of
[42:48] Speaker 2: her murder is huge. So this is where you know,
[42:53] Speaker 2: like today everybody's talking DNA. You still have to go
[42:58] Speaker 2: after the other types of physical evidence and do that
[43:01] Speaker 2: gum shoe investigative work because every now and then it's
[43:04] Speaker 2: going to pay off huge. And it looks like it's
[43:06] Speaker 2: paying off huge right here.
[43:08] Speaker 1: Yeah. Remember what was the case where they followed these
[43:10] Speaker 1: like gamblers all the way to who turned out to
[43:13] Speaker 1: be murderers, all the way to like a horse track,
[43:16] Speaker 1: and they planted money and mark the bills and then
[43:19] Speaker 1: actually had like a composit cashier at this racetrack. You know,
[43:23] Speaker 1: I am always impressed with It's just like I always
[43:25] Speaker 1: see the analogy of the of the you know, the
[43:29] Speaker 1: trout line with the magnets trying to find that damn
[43:32] Speaker 1: gun that somebody threw off the bridge in the eighteen hundreds.
[43:36] Speaker 1: That's what you want. So that was my defensive getler also,
[43:39] Speaker 1: which is that you know, he's trying his best. Everybod's
[43:42] Speaker 1: trying their best.
[43:43] Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'm just going to comment right now the
[43:46] Speaker 2: fact that you see, oh, Krueger has access to this cordage.
[43:52] Speaker 2: I mean this is where now there's a search warrant
[43:55] Speaker 2: on where Krueger is working. Yep, Krueger is then interview
[44:00] Speaker 2: but also simultaneously you are looking for that source of
[44:05] Speaker 2: cordage because now can you do forensic testing in order
[44:09] Speaker 2: to at least verify yes, this is the same type
[44:11] Speaker 2: of cordage, But is there aspects to this cordage Let's say,
[44:17] Speaker 2: does it record certain types of tool marks? Is there
[44:20] Speaker 2: something pliable that would record tool marks, let's say a scissor,
[44:25] Speaker 2: you know that possibly under a microscopic examination, could link
[44:29] Speaker 2: the cordage from Nancy sin to this, you know, school
[44:33] Speaker 2: of cordage from Krueger's company.
[44:36] Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, So they pull apart these two guys. So
[44:39] Speaker 1: you've got John Fiorenza and then you've got Theodore Krueger.
[44:44] Speaker 1: And John has been working there as an assistant at
[44:47] Speaker 1: the shop for a while and I think mostly it's
[44:52] Speaker 1: because he has a criminal record. Now. His criminal record
[44:55] Speaker 1: is theft, and he's you know, he's twenty four. It
[44:58] Speaker 1: started when he was twelve and he was stealing stuff
[45:01] Speaker 1: and then he ends up in prison. Then he got
[45:04] Speaker 1: out and he went back to prison for stealing a
[45:06] Speaker 1: car and stuff like that. But he's been doing a
[45:10] Speaker 1: good job at Kruger's. And of course they're interviewing Theodore Kruger,
[45:13] Speaker 1: the owner Here's the thing though, that Theodore reveals is that, remember,
[45:22] Speaker 1: in order to reupholster this love seat, somebody had to
[45:25] Speaker 1: go get it, and somebody had to go get it
[45:27] Speaker 1: the day before, and it was John. He went by
[45:31] Speaker 1: himself and Nancy was there and she said go ahead
[45:35] Speaker 1: and take the love seat, and Theodore had not met
[45:38] Speaker 1: her before. I know that doesn't mean anything, but you know,
[45:42] Speaker 1: when they're weighing these two guys and they're finding out
[45:45] Speaker 1: John had been in prison, and he just sort of
[45:49] Speaker 1: was like a moody guy. I mean, he was engaged,
[45:51] Speaker 1: but you know, there was just a lot of stuff
[45:53] Speaker 1: that felt like was off for him. But the big deal,
[45:58] Speaker 1: just initially from the cops when they start Questionestioning, is
[46:01] Speaker 1: that he was at the apartment retrieving the sofa by
[46:04] Speaker 1: himself the day before her murder.
[46:07] Speaker 2: Well, he's seeing Nancy and he's seeing the valuables inside
[46:11] Speaker 2: this apartment, and you know he's committed crimes, you know,
[46:14] Speaker 2: for financial purposes. Now does he go back, you know,
[46:19] Speaker 2: to Krueger himself and say, hey, you know there's an
[46:23] Speaker 2: attractive woman inside this apartment, plus there's a lot of valuables,
[46:27] Speaker 2: and they go and deliver you know the sofa. You
[46:32] Speaker 2: know that the timing. If John was there the day before,
[46:35] Speaker 2: right now, that doesn't add up with their findings of
[46:38] Speaker 2: the timing. And I actually put more weight on the
[46:43] Speaker 2: friend Georgia talking to Nancy that morning, So John didn't
[46:48] Speaker 2: kill her on the you know, the day before. She's
[46:51] Speaker 2: still alive because George is saying I talked to her,
[46:55] Speaker 2: And so it makes more sense that when both John
[47:00] Speaker 2: and Theodore Krueger go back, that is when Nancy is killed.
[47:04] Speaker 2: And now are you dealing with two offenders that are
[47:08] Speaker 2: attacking Nancy and assaulting her? Or is one doing the
[47:13] Speaker 2: sexual assault while the other is, you know, looking for
[47:15] Speaker 2: something to steal. And at least it doesn't sound like
[47:19] Speaker 2: her apartment was ransacked. It was just a you know,
[47:22] Speaker 2: a handful of dollars out of her purse that was taken,
[47:25] Speaker 2: you know, So it seems like it's more a sexually
[47:28] Speaker 2: motivated crime than a financial crime. And this is where
[47:32] Speaker 2: John came back and told Theodore Krueger, Hey, there's an
[47:35] Speaker 2: attractive woman on this and we're going to be delivering
[47:37] Speaker 2: this this thing back. Then they partner up, you know,
[47:41] Speaker 2: That's that's my guess. One isn't just standing there with
[47:44] Speaker 2: his arms crossed. They are They went there to take
[47:49] Speaker 2: advantage of Nancy being alone.
[47:52] Speaker 1: So I'll give you more information that Detective Care finds
[47:55] Speaker 1: out as he's talking to both of these guys. So
[47:58] Speaker 1: Theodore says, John's the one who went and got the
[48:01] Speaker 1: sofa seat. He brought it back, We did the reopholstring,
[48:05] Speaker 1: and he was supposed to come to work, I think
[48:08] Speaker 1: he said, at eleven the day of Nancy's murder, and
[48:13] Speaker 1: John comes at twelve thirty.
[48:15] Speaker 2: Okay, So John went alone ahead of time, and the
[48:19] Speaker 2: fact that the cordage was brought there shows intent, right,
[48:26] Speaker 2: So that's that's an interesting little twist. And then John
[48:31] Speaker 2: goes back and does the delivery with Theodore. And then
[48:34] Speaker 2: now there's this cover if you will, Well, we just
[48:38] Speaker 2: we were there. You know, there's reason why my fingerprints
[48:42] Speaker 2: would be inside Nancy's apartment, et cetera. But you know
[48:46] Speaker 2: she's dead, and he has now Theodore Krueger, who can
[48:51] Speaker 2: basically vouch well, John was with me, Yeah, you know,
[48:57] Speaker 2: we just happened to discover Nancy dead at that point.
[49:00] Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say Theodore Krueger is very suspicious of
[49:04] Speaker 1: John as this all kind of starts to go on. First,
[49:08] Speaker 1: he doesn't give a great explanation for why he was
[49:10] Speaker 1: late that day at twelve thirty when he was supposed
[49:13] Speaker 1: to be there an hour or two earlier. And then
[49:16] Speaker 1: there is a story that John unfolds involving his probation officer,
[49:20] Speaker 1: involving visiting a building that we know was closed that
[49:25] Speaker 1: day because it was good Friday. And so John has
[49:30] Speaker 1: full of crap for why he was late to clocking
[49:33] Speaker 1: into work. And then Theodore says something really interesting, and
[49:38] Speaker 1: it's Theodore picking up on something. And then you know,
[49:41] Speaker 1: the detective says, okay, well that's that is really interesting.
[49:45] Speaker 1: So Theodore, when they get there, the door's ajar. They
[49:48] Speaker 1: put down the sofa. Theodore calls out Nancy Titterson's name,
[49:51] Speaker 1: she doesn't respond. They see the light. It's Theodore who
[49:54] Speaker 1: goes into the bathroom. He sees the body and he
[49:58] Speaker 1: says she's dead and call out to John call the police,
[50:02] Speaker 1: which he does, but Theodore says he could hear John
[50:05] Speaker 1: say there is a woman tied up in the bathroom,
[50:08] Speaker 1: and Theodore says, the detective cur I never told him that. Yeah, yeah,
[50:14] Speaker 1: And so that's when Kerr becomes very alarmed. So you know,
[50:18] Speaker 1: this is kind of the road we're heading down. Is
[50:20] Speaker 1: they're pretty convinced that John's the one who did this,
[50:23] Speaker 1: and not with Theodore's help, because Theodore is trying to
[50:25] Speaker 1: kind of pick up on stuff. So it sounds like
[50:28] Speaker 1: if this is the way it goes, John goes there
[50:31] Speaker 1: in the morning before he's supposed to clock in. He
[50:34] Speaker 1: kills her after her conversation with Georgia. So let's say
[50:39] Speaker 1: at like eleven thirty, and either in the process of
[50:43] Speaker 1: doing that when the delivery boy comes and nobody answers
[50:45] Speaker 1: the door, or we don't know the timing, and then
[50:48] Speaker 1: he rushes back to work and he's there by twelve thirty,
[50:50] Speaker 1: but work is around the corner, and then they show
[50:52] Speaker 1: up at four fifteen to deliver this sofa.
[50:55] Speaker 2: Makes sense to me, No, absolutely, for sure.
[50:58] Speaker 1: I hope you never feel like I did see you
[51:00] Speaker 1: when I keep information.
[51:02] Speaker 2: Oh, I always feel like you to see me.
[51:05] Speaker 1: Well, but that's your showing up as a detective on
[51:08] Speaker 1: the crime scene. I mean, you don't find out all
[51:10] Speaker 1: you Nobody hands you Dulcia and says this is the
[51:12] Speaker 1: way this case is going to end, And so sort
[51:13] Speaker 1: of things unravel. The more Cure talks to people, the
[51:16] Speaker 1: more he's kind of going, oh, okay, that's that.
[51:19] Speaker 2: That's typical what you think about the crime when you
[51:21] Speaker 2: first arrive at the crime scene, or what you're told
[51:23] Speaker 2: by the people. You know, it's what I call the story. Yeah,
[51:28] Speaker 2: so you have you know, like with with Theodore and John,
[51:31] Speaker 2: you know they're they're talking. That's part of the story.
[51:34] Speaker 2: But as the evidence is processed, as the investigation goes,
[51:38] Speaker 2: things that contradict the story have to modify how you
[51:42] Speaker 2: think that crime went down. And there's a you know,
[51:45] Speaker 2: I call the story. That's my hypothesis, and I find
[51:48] Speaker 2: if I find something that is that refutes the hypothesis,
[51:52] Speaker 2: then it renders a hypothesis null. And now I have
[51:55] Speaker 2: to develop another theory to fit the evidence or to
[51:58] Speaker 2: fit the information, and then investigation.
[52:01] Speaker 1: And I know you'll get there eventually with these cases.
[52:04] Speaker 1: But I have to tell you what, when you were
[52:06] Speaker 1: going down the Theodore route, I was getting a little
[52:09] Speaker 1: anxiety because I was thinking, oh, no, I hope he
[52:11] Speaker 1: does because John does confess. He ends up confessing to
[52:16] Speaker 1: this and kind of giving them a lot. He even
[52:18] Speaker 1: does a reenactment at the apartment of what happened. But
[52:22] Speaker 1: you know, but it was funny because with all of
[52:25] Speaker 1: these cases, when you focus on somebody who I'm fairly
[52:28] Speaker 1: sure you know, didn't do it, I always think, oh
[52:30] Speaker 1: my gosh, can we pull out of this or is
[52:32] Speaker 1: he going to accuse this person?
[52:34] Speaker 2: Well, but that's you know, but that's just part of
[52:36] Speaker 2: the investigative process. You go, oh, the Krueger has access
[52:40] Speaker 2: to this type of cordage, Well, yeah, he becomes a suspect, right,
[52:43] Speaker 2: But then as you interview and do more digging, it's like, okay,
[52:48] Speaker 2: I can set him aside because now John is rising
[52:51] Speaker 2: to the top. That is investigation one on one.
[52:55] Speaker 1: Well here's another one that I think you'll approve of.
[52:58] Speaker 1: They lead John into believing that John is the most
[53:01] Speaker 1: helpful witness they've ever had. So, you know, Detective care
[53:06] Speaker 1: is saying, you know, we need your help here. You
[53:10] Speaker 1: guys were the last person you saw her, You were
[53:14] Speaker 1: you know, you were the ones initially into the apartment.
[53:16] Speaker 1: I need your help. And so this plays into John's ego.
[53:19] Speaker 1: Of course, so this is I'm not sure this is
[53:22] Speaker 1: part is that great, But here starts planting red herrings
[53:26] Speaker 1: in the press. This pisses off Nancy's family and friends
[53:29] Speaker 1: because one of the red herrings is that Nancy had
[53:32] Speaker 1: a secret relationship and a jealous lover and that that
[53:35] Speaker 1: is probably the killer. And of course that's you know,
[53:38] Speaker 1: meant to target John, and so that they totally are
[53:43] Speaker 1: off my case and so now I can really you know,
[53:46] Speaker 1: help them. But to me, it was just another reminder
[53:50] Speaker 1: of of course, the relationship between the police and the
[53:53] Speaker 1: press is transactional, but the planting of stories and intentional
[53:58] Speaker 1: leaks and all of that stuff bugs me. I know
[54:01] Speaker 1: what happens in a lot of times it's necessary, but
[54:03] Speaker 1: you know, you think it's like going back and forth.
[54:06] Speaker 1: You know, politicians do leaks and soda cops and then
[54:08] Speaker 1: you know that the press intentionally pressures uses their headlines
[54:12] Speaker 1: to pressure the police and these investigations, and so it
[54:15] Speaker 1: just gives another reminder, Oh yeah, this is a crappy
[54:18] Speaker 1: relationship sometimes no.
[54:20] Speaker 2: But you know that, you know, the messaging through the
[54:24] Speaker 2: media by law enforcement is something that is just part
[54:28] Speaker 2: of the playbook. You know, the FBI, you know, Behavioral
[54:31] Speaker 2: Analysis Unit, when they give guidance, you know, part of
[54:35] Speaker 2: their guidance is to message through the media to communicate
[54:39] Speaker 2: to your unknown offender in order to get some sort
[54:42] Speaker 2: of behavior or some sort of response. It's just part
[54:45] Speaker 2: of the you know, the toolkit. And I know, you know,
[54:49] Speaker 2: media doesn't want to be misinformed about the facts of
[54:53] Speaker 2: the case. But law enforcement has a job to do,
[54:56] Speaker 2: you know, and that's just part of of what you
[54:58] Speaker 2: have to do.
[54:59] Speaker 1: Well, let's see what John has to say. Because he's
[55:01] Speaker 1: becoming more and more comfortable with the police, he starts
[55:04] Speaker 1: divulging information, you know, the things that they've withheld. You know.
[55:09] Speaker 1: The detective care catches him way too many times and lies,
[55:12] Speaker 1: and eventually he confesses he's arrested. They take him to
[55:17] Speaker 1: the apartment. He does a reenactment, and this is what
[55:19] Speaker 1: he says. So the day before when he shows up,
[55:21] Speaker 1: he becomes infatuated with Nancy, and he that night fantasizes
[55:27] Speaker 1: about hurting her, and then he decides he's going to
[55:31] Speaker 1: execute it that day in the morning before he has
[55:33] Speaker 1: to go to work, So he stuffs fifty two inches
[55:36] Speaker 1: of twine in his pocket from Theodore's shop. He goes
[55:40] Speaker 1: to the apartment the next morning when she's not expecting him.
[55:44] Speaker 1: He enters under the pretense that he needed to take
[55:47] Speaker 1: additional measurements for the love seat, so no forced entry,
[55:50] Speaker 1: he says. Then he attacks her. He gags her, he
[55:54] Speaker 1: ties her hands with the upholstery cord, and he sexually
[55:57] Speaker 1: assaults her. Then he strangles her. He said, once she
[56:00] Speaker 1: was unconscious, he decided to make it appear as though
[56:03] Speaker 1: she had drowned in the bathtub. So he carries her
[56:07] Speaker 1: from the bedroom to the bathroom, and with a knife
[56:11] Speaker 1: he took from the kitchen, he slices the cord from
[56:15] Speaker 1: her wrists. You had asked about that, what kind of
[56:17] Speaker 1: you know, where did this come from? Was it a knife?
[56:19] Speaker 1: And we can match things. He tried but failed to
[56:22] Speaker 1: fill the tub with water, and then he left. He
[56:25] Speaker 1: tossed the cord except for the one he left behind
[56:28] Speaker 1: in a barrel on fiftieth Street. So that's what he
[56:32] Speaker 1: says happened. And I mean, do you see anything that
[56:36] Speaker 1: contradicts the evidence that we've talked about so far. He's
[56:39] Speaker 1: trying to fill it with water and it's not filling
[56:41] Speaker 1: with water.
[56:42] Speaker 2: Yeah, provided that he wasn't given, you know, leading questions. Yeah,
[56:47] Speaker 2: you know, if he is organically providing these details, and
[56:51] Speaker 2: of course i'd want to hear, what did you strangle
[56:54] Speaker 2: her with? You know, could you describe that? Kind of
[56:58] Speaker 2: get more details as you're talking to him, But even
[57:01] Speaker 2: with what you told me, I'm like, yeah, you know,
[57:04] Speaker 2: this is something that only he would know. The interesting
[57:07] Speaker 2: thing is is, you know the attempt at staging where
[57:11] Speaker 2: he's trying to make it look like Nancy drowned in
[57:13] Speaker 2: the tub, you know, And that's that's a huge admission
[57:17] Speaker 2: right there. That absolutely matches up with what happened at
[57:23] Speaker 2: the crime scene and what happened to Nancy, you know,
[57:26] Speaker 2: and the fact that you know she he's saying she's unconscious,
[57:30] Speaker 2: Well he doesn't know she's dead.
[57:32] Speaker 1: Or not right, and she's dead.
[57:34] Speaker 2: She's dead because she doesn't have any water in her trichea,
[57:38] Speaker 2: in her lungs. She's not breathing when he's trying to
[57:41] Speaker 2: fill up his bathtub, if any if unless maybe the
[57:45] Speaker 2: water isn't even pooling inside the bathtub, maybe that drain
[57:48] Speaker 2: just isn't working at all. But you know, everything that
[57:51] Speaker 2: he is saying is like this is the killer. Yeah,
[57:54] Speaker 2: no question.
[57:56] Speaker 1: Well it's over. He goes on trial, he is convicted,
[58:00] Speaker 1: he's sentenced to death. He's in sing, sing and he
[58:03] Speaker 1: is given the electric chair, which would have been awful.
[58:07] Speaker 2: Yeah, how old is John?
[58:10] Speaker 1: Twenty four years old? And it's a big escalation, right,
[58:13] Speaker 1: I mean you're going from basically petty theft, you know,
[58:17] Speaker 1: I mean he's stealing stuff, but you know, things that
[58:20] Speaker 1: it seems like monetary gain, to then this. But I
[58:24] Speaker 1: know that that's also not that unusual.
[58:26] Speaker 2: Well, I would be fairly confident based on his statement
[58:30] Speaker 2: that he fantasized about hurting Nancy after he saw her,
[58:37] Speaker 2: he's likely been committing you know, you called it, you know, thefts.
[58:43] Speaker 2: You know, what he's doing is he's doing fetish burglaries
[58:46] Speaker 2: that in all likelihoods is what's happening, and some of them,
[58:49] Speaker 2: of course he's getting financial gain, but he's getting he's
[58:54] Speaker 2: fantasizing about breaking into these places. And now you know
[58:59] Speaker 2: the question as well, at which age did he first
[59:02] Speaker 2: start sexually assaulting women. He's only twenty four, and it's
[59:07] Speaker 2: possible that this was his first, right, but it's entirely
[59:12] Speaker 2: possible that he's been doing this for years. And you know,
[59:15] Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty six, they're not going to catch him,
[59:18] Speaker 2: you know, they're not even going to link other cases
[59:21] Speaker 2: to him. In that area or wherever he's been.
[59:26] Speaker 1: You know, he doesn't mention this in his confession. I
[59:28] Speaker 1: don't think, but I had wondered if the delivery boy
[59:31] Speaker 1: eleven thirty had interrupted him, because if you you would think,
[59:35] Speaker 1: why wouldn't he take her garter belt or any of
[59:38] Speaker 1: these other items that apparently were not missing.
[59:41] Speaker 2: You know, what offenders take a souvenirs can is very
[59:44] Speaker 2: specific to the offender and what is important to the
[59:47] Speaker 2: offender and what the offender associates with the crime. Not
[59:52] Speaker 2: all offenders take souvenirs. Ye, So that you know, we
[59:56] Speaker 2: know there seems to be missing cash out of Nancy's
[1:00:00] Speaker 2: hers was there something else missing out of her purse?
[1:00:03] Speaker 2: You know? And as you brought up it's it's like, well,
[1:00:07] Speaker 2: how did they know there was five dollars missing out
[1:00:09] Speaker 2: of Nancy's purse? You know, I'm not putting much weight
[1:00:14] Speaker 2: on that at all, but I there's I mean, this
[1:00:17] Speaker 2: is an open and shutcase. They got the right guy.
[1:00:21] Speaker 1: Well, you know, I like bringing you stories where the
[1:00:25] Speaker 1: detectives are actually competent and do the right thing, because
[1:00:29] Speaker 1: we just run into so many alternative stories that, you know,
[1:00:32] Speaker 1: are alternative scenarios where we have the police either not
[1:00:35] Speaker 1: caring or they don't have the right tools, and so
[1:00:39] Speaker 1: every once in a while. This is even though Gettler
[1:00:41] Speaker 1: was really far off with his chloride theory. Yeah, it's
[1:00:44] Speaker 1: good because it was really their hard work in tenaciousness
[1:00:48] Speaker 1: that you need to have right in dayson where people
[1:00:51] Speaker 1: are expecting DNA when really it's good detective work that
[1:00:54] Speaker 1: solves most crimes. So so I thought this was a
[1:00:57] Speaker 1: good case. I love it. I love seeing how hard
[1:00:59] Speaker 1: they worked it. I would hope they worked all cases
[1:01:02] Speaker 1: like this. I don't know if they were that diligent
[1:01:05] Speaker 1: with you know, somebody who is in the Lower East
[1:01:09] Speaker 1: Side who is also murdered. I doubt it. But at
[1:01:12] Speaker 1: least at least we know that they, you know, are
[1:01:14] Speaker 1: capable of really doing some hard police work.
[1:01:18] Speaker 2: Well I've seen you know, of course New York. You
[1:01:21] Speaker 2: know they have a ton of resources. I mean they
[1:01:24] Speaker 2: have fifty detectives doing the canvas right and you have
[1:01:29] Speaker 2: you know, the primary investigator Cure who actually is you know,
[1:01:34] Speaker 2: digging and doing really good work. Very experienced, well resourced agency.
[1:01:41] Speaker 2: But I've seen it cut both ways, very busy agency,
[1:01:45] Speaker 2: and many cases often get just shoved aside because they're
[1:01:49] Speaker 2: getting called out to the next homicide or the next
[1:01:51] Speaker 2: sexual assault, you know. But at least in Nancy's case,
[1:01:55] Speaker 2: you saw having experience, expertise, and resources, you know, come
[1:02:00] Speaker 2: together to solve the case.
[1:02:02] Speaker 1: Yep, absolutely, and that's really good news. It's nice to
[1:02:06] Speaker 1: be able to have an ending where the guy gets caught. Yeah, Okay,
[1:02:10] Speaker 1: next week we will see what kind of case we bring.
[1:02:12] Speaker 1: It won't be nineteen thirty six months likely. I would
[1:02:14] Speaker 1: love to go back to New York. I'm going to
[1:02:16] Speaker 1: put a pin in. That sounds goody. I'll see you
[1:02:19] Speaker 1: next week.
[1:02:20] Speaker 2: All right, looking forward to it. Thanks Kate.
[1:02:26] Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.
[1:02:29] Speaker 2: For our Sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot
[1:02:32] Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.
[1:02:34] Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.
[1:02:37] Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.
[1:02:40] Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Toliday.
[1:02:43] Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.
[1:02:45] Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.
[1:02:48] Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.
[1:02:52] Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at
[1:02:55] Speaker 1: Buried Bones.
[1:02:56] Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a
[1:02:59] Speaker 2: guild story of murder and the race to decode the
[1:03:02] Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.
[1:03:04] Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's
[1:03:08] Speaker 1: cold cases, is also available now.
[1:03:10] Speaker 2: Listen to Varied Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
[1:03:14] Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts

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