# Retrospective 5: Kelly and The Pandemic

An episode of [True Crime Bullsh**: The Israel Keyes Investigation](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1443666680), 23 Sep 2026, 56 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/clrtpod.com/m/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/75302190/retro5.mp3

In Retrospective 5, Josh discusses how a family loss created massive life changes during the creation of TCB season 2. And how the pandemic and Kelly Cochran led to some massive podcast changes, gambles, and fears. 10th Anniversary Retreat https://www.bothand.fyi/event-details-registration/ten-year-anniversary-celebration TROVA TRIP to Slovenia https://trovatrip.com/trip/europe/slovenia/slovenia-with-josh-hallmark-jun-2027 TROVA TRIP to Galápagos Islands https://trovatrip.com/trip/south-america/ecuador/ecuador-with-josh-hallmark-jan-2027 TROVA TRIP to Costa Rica https://trovatrip.com/trip/central-america/costa-rica/costa-rica-with-josh-hallmark-nov-2026 PATREON www.patreon.com/studiobothand SPONSORS • Coveron: Coveron.com/TCB with code TCB for 20% off (for the first 100 users). • Boll & Branch: BollAndBranch.com/truecrimebs for 20% off. • Quince: Quince.com/TCBS for free shipping and 356-day returns. • BetterHelp: BetterHelp.com/TCB for 10% off your first month. • Schedule35: Schedule35.co with promo code TCBS for 15% off your first order. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/true-crime-bullsh-the-israel-keyes-investigation--3588169/support.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Hey, everyone.
[0:01] Speaker 2: This Thursday, September 24th, is the last day that you
[0:06] Speaker 2: can buy tickets for the Berkshire Podcast Retreat, where we're
[0:09] Speaker 2: celebrating my 10 years in podcasting. Come to the Berkshires,
[0:14] Speaker 2: hang out with me, Amanda Jacobson from Wine and Crime,
[0:18] Speaker 2: Justin and Aaron from Generation Y, Patrick Hines from True
[0:22] Speaker 2: Crime Obsessed, Charlie Worrell from Crime Lines, writer and dear
[0:27] Speaker 2: friend of the show, Clémence Michelon, and many, many others
[0:31] Speaker 2: as we gather together to celebrate 10 years via activities
[0:35] Speaker 2: here in the Berkshires, studio sessions, and an incredible live show.
[0:41] Speaker 2: To get your tickets today, go to bothand.fyi. If you've
[0:47] Speaker 2: been thinking about joining Patreon, now is the time as
[0:51] Speaker 2: we go into a new season of true crime bullshit.
[0:55] Speaker 2: Next week, we are launching the TCB Research Lab. to
[1:00] Speaker 2: certain tiers on Patreon. Members can join this online portal
[1:04] Speaker 2: and access tons of research, playlists, Israel Keyes' interviews, case files, maps,
[1:12] Speaker 2: the timeline, and so much more. You can also chat
[1:15] Speaker 2: with other listeners, share your theories, and brainstorm on the case.
[1:19] Speaker 2: The TCB Research Lab launches next week, but you can
[1:24] Speaker 2: join Patreon today at patreon.com slash studio both And... Hey everyone!
[1:32] Speaker 2: With Costa Rica less than two months away and Galapagos
[1:36] Speaker 2: just four months away, you might be wondering what's next
[1:39] Speaker 2: for our international adventures. Well, it's a country straight out
[1:44] Speaker 2: of the storybooks, full of castles, gorgeous landscapes, and naturally, wine.
[1:50] Speaker 2: Right now, Slovenia is one of Europe's best-kept secrets. It's
[1:54] Speaker 2: set in the foothills of the Alps and along the
[1:56] Speaker 2: Adriatic Sea in the Mediterranean. Slovenia is the place everyone
[2:00] Speaker 2: will be talking about next year, and we have the
[2:03] Speaker 2: chance to be there in June. I want you to
[2:05] Speaker 2: join me for an experience that goes beyond the typical tour,
[2:09] Speaker 2: because this isn't just about the views. It's about slowing down, connecting,
[2:14] Speaker 2: shopping probably, and experiencing something truly new together. And, of course,
[2:20] Speaker 2: wine tasting. We're filling up pretty fast. If you're one
[2:23] Speaker 2: of the first eight to book, you get $ 200 off
[2:25] Speaker 2: your trip, and there's only four of those spots left.
[2:28] Speaker 2: So book now. Let's make some memories together in Slovenia.
[2:32] Speaker 2: Just click the link in the show notes or go
[2:34] Speaker 2: to bothand.fyi. This is a Studio Both And production. Seasons
[2:53] Speaker 2: one and two of True Crime Bullshit were a chaotic blur.
[2:58] Speaker 2: I produced and published two seasons in just 14 months.
[3:02] Speaker 2: Just as I wrapped season one, I found out that
[3:05] Speaker 2: one of our cats had terminal cancer and likely only
[3:08] Speaker 2: had about a month left to live. So I again
[3:11] Speaker 2: packed up and this time departed the Berkshires to go
[3:15] Speaker 2: back to Bed-Stuy. Returning to Brooklyn was harsh. I'd been
[3:19] Speaker 2: away for several months and I was returning to a
[3:21] Speaker 2: place that ramped up my anxiety and triggered my CPTSD.
[3:26] Speaker 2: I was also returning to my now estranged partner and
[3:30] Speaker 2: the impending loss of our cat. From the moment I arrived,
[3:34] Speaker 2: I knew that couldn't be my life anymore. But what
[3:37] Speaker 2: I didn't know was how to reconcile the parts that
[3:39] Speaker 2: I loved with my need to escape. I knew my
[3:43] Speaker 2: home could never be home again. We spent as much
[3:47] Speaker 2: time as possible with our cat Sophia. We reconnected. And
[3:52] Speaker 2: I started working on season two of the show. Back then,
[3:55] Speaker 2: there was a mere weeks between seasons. Something I, to
[3:59] Speaker 2: this day, still don't know how I managed. It was
[4:02] Speaker 2: during this time that I met Kaz, the first member
[4:05] Speaker 2: of the research team, back before the research team was
[4:08] Speaker 2: even a thing. We'd been booked to speak together at
[4:11] Speaker 2: an event in New Jersey. And so she took the
[4:14] Speaker 2: train down to Brooklyn with her partner Dan, and we
[4:17] Speaker 2: opened my giant Israel Keys map in a beer hall
[4:20] Speaker 2: in Fort Greene. And quickly, my obsession became hers. Due
[4:26] Speaker 2: to both her experience and her person, I trusted Kaz immediately,
[4:31] Speaker 2: which was something incredibly foreign to me. We became fast friends, confidants,
[4:38] Speaker 2: and Kaz became the person I went to with ethics, legal,
[4:41] Speaker 2: and moral quandaries and concerns. And for the first time
[4:45] Speaker 2: in the process of making TCB, I didn't feel alone
[4:48] Speaker 2: in it. That event that we were booked for never happened,
[4:52] Speaker 2: but I'm so glad that it pretended it was going to.
[4:56] Speaker 2: Two months after my return to New York, Sophia died,
[5:00] Speaker 2: and I told my partner I couldn't do New York anymore.
[5:04] Speaker 2: After much debate, we finally landed on moving to North
[5:07] Speaker 2: Adams in the Berkshires. And so, We began looking at
[5:11] Speaker 2: houses and figuring out what our lives might look like there.
[5:15] Speaker 2: It was a massive sacrifice for Andrew, one that now
[5:19] Speaker 2: I don't take lightly. He'd been working in apparel design,
[5:23] Speaker 2: and obviously that was not going to be a career
[5:25] Speaker 2: option in our eventual home base of 13,000 people, hours
[5:30] Speaker 2: away from New York and Boston. And ultimately, our tables
[5:34] Speaker 2: were turned completely. We ended up in a place that
[5:37] Speaker 2: I loved, which became a place that he struggled. At
[5:41] Speaker 2: least at first. Navigating this imbalance would put significant strain
[5:46] Speaker 2: on us. And little did we know, a worldwide pandemic
[5:50] Speaker 2: was about to exacerbate things significantly. We moved into our
[5:54] Speaker 2: new house in a town where we knew no one
[5:57] Speaker 2: on January 1st of 2020. And just 10 weeks later,
[6:02] Speaker 2: the entire world shut down. We were isolated, alone, in
[6:06] Speaker 2: a severe winter, in a brand new place full of strangers.
[6:11] Speaker 2: We had each other, our surviving cat Beatrice, and Zoom. And,
[6:17] Speaker 2: fear of the unknown. We wouldn't know if this place
[6:20] Speaker 2: would be the right place for us for over a year.
[6:24] Speaker 2: The silver lining for me, though, was that the pandemic
[6:26] Speaker 2: brought people to podcasts in droves. After working for four
[6:31] Speaker 2: years at approximately 80 hours per week, and financially peaking
[6:35] Speaker 2: at about $ 1, 000 a month, my work was finally starting
[6:38] Speaker 2: to pay off. By May of 2020, I was finally
[6:42] Speaker 2: able to cover my own expenses on my own and
[6:45] Speaker 2: start paying off a fairly massive podcasting debt. It was
[6:50] Speaker 2: around that time that I was approached by a company
[6:52] Speaker 2: called GetVocal, a new startup that offered live video and
[6:57] Speaker 2: pledged to connect podcasters with their listeners. They wanted me
[7:00] Speaker 2: to do weekly live video chats with listeners, something that
[7:04] Speaker 2: made me tremendously nervous.
[7:07] Speaker 3: Because I.
[7:08] Speaker 2: I'm somewhat socially awkward and very much an introvert. More
[7:12] Speaker 2: than that, I am incredibly shy. I was also terrified
[7:17] Speaker 2: because just as TCB hit its stride, I'd pivoted to
[7:21] Speaker 2: a new subject, Kelly Cochran. The pivot wasn't necessarily what
[7:27] Speaker 2: I wanted, but in addition to needing to break with Brooklyn,
[7:31] Speaker 2: I also desperately needed some space from Keys, for both
[7:35] Speaker 2: the sake of my mental health and the sake of
[7:38] Speaker 2: the story and investigation. My original plan had always been
[7:43] Speaker 2: to do a single season of Keys, and then each
[7:45] Speaker 2: subsequent season would cover another case. And once I finished
[7:49] Speaker 2: a second season of Keys, I knew my work was
[7:52] Speaker 2: not nearly done. So, I'd just take one season off,
[7:57] Speaker 2: and I'd cover the disappearance and deaths of the Jameson
[8:00] Speaker 2: family out of Oklahoma. Prior to Keys being my entire life,
[8:06] Speaker 2: I was pretty obsessed with his case and three others.
[8:10] Speaker 2: The Zodiac, the Jameson family, and the mysterious disappearance and
[8:15] Speaker 2: death of Judy Smith, a Massachusetts woman who disappeared in
[8:19] Speaker 2: Philadelphia and was later found dead in North Carolina. I
[8:23] Speaker 2: knew that I couldn't do The Zodiac because it had
[8:26] Speaker 2: been exhaustively covered, and I was pretty devout in my
[8:29] Speaker 2: opinion of who was responsible for those crimes, so it
[8:32] Speaker 2: didn't seem fair to the listener for me to cover it.
[8:36] Speaker 2: And my FOIAs in both the Jameson and Smith cases
[8:38] Speaker 2: were denied. So I started digging around for relatively unknown
[8:43] Speaker 2: serial killers to cover. Something similar to Keyes. And that's
[8:47] Speaker 2: when I stumbled upon a three-part series on investigation discovery
[8:50] Speaker 2: about Kelly Cochran. I knew instantly that this was the
[8:54] Speaker 2: case for me. She was relatively unknown. She had a
[8:58] Speaker 2: fascinating and troubling upbringing. There was significant mystery around her crimes.
[9:03] Speaker 2: Her crimes and MO were incredibly unique, we didn't know
[9:07] Speaker 2: who most of her victims were, and female serial killers
[9:10] Speaker 2: were rarely covered.
[9:12] Speaker 1: At the time.
[9:13] Speaker 2: And so, with just eight weeks before the scheduled launch
[9:16] Speaker 2: of season three, I was invigorated but also worried that
[9:20] Speaker 2: I'd lose my audience, just as I was finally able
[9:23] Speaker 2: to financially survive from podcasting. The Kelly Cochran Foyas had
[9:28] Speaker 2: cost more than $ 6, 000. It was a massive gamble, At
[9:34] Speaker 2: a time when I felt financially insecure, all the debt
[9:37] Speaker 2: that I'd paid off, I in one fell swoop quickly re-accrued.
[9:42] Speaker 2: My entire livelihood was at stake, and Kelly Cochran was
[9:47] Speaker 2: in the driver's seat. I launched GetVocal in conjunction with
[9:51] Speaker 2: the Kelly season, which years later became its own podcast,
[9:55] Speaker 2: The Pact, and I began obsessively watching my download numbers.
[10:00] Speaker 2: And they plummeted.
[10:02] Speaker 1: At first.
[10:03] Speaker 2: But the pandemic brought in new listeners. And things slowly
[10:07] Speaker 2: evened out. And GetVocal became a boon of its own.
[10:12] Speaker 2: Just in a very unexpected way. While GetVocal promised to
[10:16] Speaker 2: monetize the show, it never actually did. but it did
[10:20] Speaker 2: introduce me to Shana, Tooker, and French. The three of
[10:24] Speaker 2: them had been their own independent research team, and Shana
[10:28] Speaker 2: used GetVocal as a way to prove their value to me.
[10:31] Speaker 2: She came on weekly, sharing their theories with me. And
[10:35] Speaker 2: we hit it off immediately, and I was happy to
[10:37] Speaker 2: have someone there weekly to help mitigate my introversion. Over time,
[10:42] Speaker 2: Shana introduced me to French and Tooker, and I was
[10:45] Speaker 2: impressed with their research and, more than that, their judgment.
[10:49] Speaker 2: I was never looking for a team and certainly didn't
[10:51] Speaker 2: want one. But I sort of fell in love with
[10:53] Speaker 2: all three of them, and I found their efforts invaluable.
[10:57] Speaker 2: And I grew to trust them. And trust would be
[11:00] Speaker 2: and had always been the most important part of collaboration
[11:03] Speaker 2: in this case. I knew I had to trust people
[11:07] Speaker 2: to put the victims and the Keys family first. I
[11:10] Speaker 2: knew I had to trust people to put the podcast
[11:13] Speaker 2: before the audience. I knew I had to trust people
[11:16] Speaker 2: to work with integrity, morality, Ethics. And while ethics can't
[11:21] Speaker 2: be defined, it's certainly not black and white, the three
[11:25] Speaker 2: of them had similar ethical approaches to me. And so
[11:29] Speaker 2: after a few months, the research team officially began with Kaz, Shana, Tooker,
[11:35] Speaker 2: and French. Four people who would change my life and
[11:40] Speaker 2: how Israel Keys impacted my life. But first, we had
[11:44] Speaker 2: to get through Kelly. And now, Here's the very first
[11:48] Speaker 2: episode of The Pact. In this episode, we're talking about
[11:52] Speaker 2: big life changes. And I just made some new, smaller
[11:57] Speaker 2: but still big life changes. I rearranged my bedroom and
[12:02] Speaker 2: bought new sheets. I wanted to go into a new
[12:05] Speaker 2: season of true crime bullshit and a new season, autumn,
[12:08] Speaker 2: feeling fresh. And when you're starting fresh, some things are non-negotiable,
[12:13] Speaker 2: like your bed. So I went to Bull & Branch,
[12:16] Speaker 2: and I bought their signature sheets, a cozy blanket, and
[12:20] Speaker 2: some supportive pillows, all crafted from high-quality organic materials. And
[12:25] Speaker 2: not only did they upgrade my bedroom, but they upgraded
[12:28] Speaker 2: my sleep. Everything on the bed works together, so the
[12:31] Speaker 2: room feels more polished, and sleep feels like hotel-level goodness.
[12:37] Speaker 2: Most people building a new bed start with the sheet
[12:40] Speaker 2: sets and a comforter. And then they layer in a
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[12:47] Speaker 2: of color like I did. And the result is a
[12:49] Speaker 2: bed that looks beautiful and feels amazing the moment you
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[12:55] Speaker 2: spirit more than a freshly upgraded bedroom is better sleep.
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[13:37] Speaker 1: Exclusions apply. How many butterfly tattoos do you have?
[13:50] Speaker 4: Ten. And was it your testimony Friday that each one
[13:55] Speaker 4: of these tattoos represents somebody.
[13:57] Speaker 1: Special you've watched in your life?
[13:58] Speaker 4: Yes.
[13:59] Speaker 1: Who are the people? Family members.
[14:04] Speaker 4: Are you denying at all that you told Chief Rizzo
[14:06] Speaker 4: that butterflies are all over corpses and that's.
[14:08] Speaker 1: Why you like them? I'm not denying it.
[14:12] Speaker 5: I know I told you that.
[14:13] Speaker 1: It was a lie.
[14:15] Speaker 3: Why didn't you tell her that each one of those
[14:16] Speaker 3: butterfly tattoos was for someone special that you lost.
[14:18] Speaker 2: In your life?
[14:19] Speaker 1: I have no clue. Do the butterflies indicate the true
[14:23] Speaker 1: number of people you killed? I've never killed anybody.
[14:28] Speaker 6: Did you also tell Chief Rizzo in that discussion on
[14:30] Speaker 6: May 16th at the jail that you picked your victims
[14:32] Speaker 6: by opportunity?
[14:33] Speaker 3: I don't know.
[14:35] Speaker 1: I don't remember that.
[14:36] Speaker 3: Well, same discussion where you told her you had homicidal
[14:38] Speaker 3: thoughts your entire life, that you didn't have any feelings,
[14:41] Speaker 3: that you didn't have any remorse, and that you picked
[14:44] Speaker 3: your victims on the basis of opportunity.
[14:47] Speaker 1: I might have said that.
[14:51] Speaker 2: We're taught to fear strangers, to look out for the unknown,
[14:57] Speaker 2: To keep our eyes on the unfamiliar. It's what made
[15:01] Speaker 2: Israel Keyes so terrifying. A completely unattached stranger who didn't
[15:08] Speaker 2: care who you were. But more often than not, the
[15:13] Speaker 2: ones we should fear the most, the ones most likely
[15:17] Speaker 2: to do us harm, are the ones closest to us.
[15:22] Speaker 2: The only thing scarier than having to protect yourself from
[15:25] Speaker 2: the stranger that broke into your home is having to
[15:29] Speaker 2: protect yourself from the person you willingly let in. The
[15:33] Speaker 2: person you know, like, love. That's what's so terrifying about
[15:42] Speaker 2: Kelly Cochran. According to Kelly Cochran... On the night of
[15:52] Speaker 2: her wedding, her new husband Jason forced her to agree
[15:55] Speaker 2: to a pact. That if she ever cheated on him,
[16:00] Speaker 2: she would have to murder the man she cheated with.
[16:04] Speaker 2: Or else, Jason would murder her. And, conversely, if Jason
[16:11] Speaker 2: ever cheated, he would have to kill the woman he
[16:14] Speaker 2: cheated with. Now, a lot can be said and speculated
[16:20] Speaker 2: about this pact. How did it happen? Did it even
[16:25] Speaker 2: happen at all? Was it a defense strategy? Or the
[16:29] Speaker 2: impetus for what was to come?
[16:34] Speaker 1: On our wedding night, my.
[16:35] Speaker 4: Husband made the statement that if either one of us
[16:39] Speaker 4: were to cheat on the other, we would have to
[16:41] Speaker 4: kill the other person or the spouse would have.
[16:45] Speaker 1: To Talked yesterday a little bit about.
[16:49] Speaker 7: This pact that you allegedly had, this pact that you
[16:52] Speaker 7: made on your wedding night.
[16:54] Speaker 1: Was there ever such a pact?
[16:57] Speaker 4: Pact means there's an agreement to something, like a contract.
[17:01] Speaker 4: This was stated by my husband on our wedding night.
[17:06] Speaker 1: Did I take it serious?
[17:07] Speaker 4: No.
[17:08] Speaker 1: Would I think something like that to be said.
[17:11] Speaker 4: To, you know, everything at the beginning was normal, what
[17:15] Speaker 4: most people's idea of normal was.
[17:25] Speaker 2: What we're expected to believe, though, according to confessions from
[17:29] Speaker 2: Kelly herself, is between their wedding on September 14, 2002,
[17:34] Speaker 2: and Kelly's arrest on April 28, 2016, Kelly murdered at
[17:38] Speaker 2: least nine people, including, eventually, Jason himself. Kelly and Jason
[17:54] Speaker 2: grew up next door to each other in Merrillville, Indiana,
[17:57] Speaker 2: a suburb just outside the greater metropolitan Chicago area. Kelly
[18:04] Speaker 2: was described as independent, incredibly intelligent, and very outgoing. Jason,
[18:13] Speaker 2: four years her senior, was quieter, softer, Friendly, but a
[18:18] Speaker 2: bit awkward. Everyone who knew them said they were the
[18:23] Speaker 2: perfect match. Which is why it was no surprise when
[18:27] Speaker 2: the pair married just several months after Kelly's 20th birthday.
[18:33] Speaker 1: I am 34 years old.
[18:36] Speaker 4: The oldest daughter of Melanie and Timothy Caboian. I've got
[18:40] Speaker 4: three siblings.
[18:42] Speaker 1: The oldest daughter. I have some education background. I graduated
[18:47] Speaker 1: from Maryville High School in 2000.
[18:50] Speaker 4: Graduated from Purdue University Calumet in 2013 with a Bachelor's
[18:54] Speaker 4: of Liberal Arts.
[18:55] Speaker 1: Okay.
[18:58] Speaker 7: And what was your specialty at Purdue?
[19:01] Speaker 1: Psychology and Sociology.
[19:04] Speaker 7: Did you have any other, like a minor or anything
[19:06] Speaker 7: like that?
[19:08] Speaker 4: I did Forensics and also Spanish. Okay.
[19:15] Speaker 7: So you're from Indiana originally. Tell us just briefly a
[19:18] Speaker 7: little bit about the area that.
[19:20] Speaker 1: You grew up in. I grew up in, technically, it
[19:23] Speaker 1: was in Maryville, Indiana. It was later on annexed to Hobart, Indiana,
[19:27] Speaker 1: on 7th Street.
[19:29] Speaker 4: I believe the population is 70,000, so it's a lot
[19:32] Speaker 4: larger of an area than this.
[19:33] Speaker 1: It's a busy area. I grew up.
[19:38] Speaker 4: Pretty basic upbringing, we raised animals.
[19:43] Speaker 1: That's pretty much it.
[19:46] Speaker 4: Okay.
[19:47] Speaker 7: Now at some point you met a gentleman whose name
[19:51] Speaker 7: is Jason Cochran. Tell us a little bit about Jason.
[19:56] Speaker 6: Jason had been my neighbor since I had moved into
[19:59] Speaker 6: the house on Mississippi Street in Maryville.
[20:03] Speaker 1: I had known him all my life. Our families pretty
[20:07] Speaker 1: much talked together. We had cook-outs together. Okay. And growing up,
[20:16] Speaker 1: did you hang out with Jason?
[20:19] Speaker 4: Not as much when we were younger. There was a
[20:22] Speaker 4: four-year difference. He's four years older.
[20:25] Speaker 1: We hung out, I would say, in my teens. It
[20:28] Speaker 1: would have been awkward for him to hang out with
[20:31] Speaker 1: me when he was, you know.
[20:33] Speaker 4: When I was younger, so we hung out maybe 15, 16.
[20:37] Speaker 1: We'd sit by bonfires and stuff, more so later.
[20:41] Speaker 7: And eventually, this hanging out became a romance, would that
[20:46] Speaker 7: be fair to say?
[20:46] Speaker 1: Yes.
[20:51] Speaker 2: After their wedding, Kelly and Jason started their own company
[20:54] Speaker 2: in Hobart, Indiana, servicing and cleaning pools. The company had
[21:00] Speaker 2: several names, including Exotic Pools and Better Backyards, but most
[21:05] Speaker 2: notably the American Dream Company. According to Kelly's father, Jason
[21:12] Speaker 2: was on disability, and so Kelly did the majority of
[21:15] Speaker 2: the physical work for the business. In fact, Jason would
[21:20] Speaker 2: encounter a slew of health problems in the years following
[21:23] Speaker 2: their weddings.
[21:26] Speaker 4: Jason had stopped working in 2011.
[21:30] Speaker 1: His issue was his back. He had a back issue
[21:34] Speaker 1: once in a while, which caused him to not be
[21:37] Speaker 1: able to work. He stopped working from that point on.
[21:40] Speaker 4: He didn't work from 2011 really until.
[21:44] Speaker 1: He didn't work. I mean, once in a while he
[21:46] Speaker 1: would do stuff, but that was it. You say he
[21:49] Speaker 1: has a bad back, but is he able to still
[21:52] Speaker 1: do things? He was able to do anything. He wasn't nimble.
[21:57] Speaker 4: He was diagnosed with sciatica.
[22:02] Speaker 1: Which would cause pain.
[22:03] Speaker 4: The nerves pinched in his spinal cord, which would go
[22:06] Speaker 4: down the left side of his leg, which would cause pain.
[22:08] Speaker 1: I'm not saying it didn't hurt, but he was still
[22:11] Speaker 1: able and capable of doing pretty much anything anybody else
[22:14] Speaker 1: can do.
[22:14] Speaker 7: Give me an example of somebody out of a project
[22:17] Speaker 7: that you argued to do or something like that.
[22:21] Speaker 4: He didn't do too much outside because he filed for
[22:23] Speaker 4: disability and.
[22:24] Speaker 1: Didn't want anybody to see it.
[22:25] Speaker 2: Fall is here, which means layers, sweater weather. You know,
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[23:48] Speaker 2: available in Canada and the UK, too. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot
[23:53] Speaker 2: com slash tcbs. Following Jason's eventual death, Kelly began to
[24:02] Speaker 2: make multiple claims that despite his disability, Jason was quite
[24:07] Speaker 2: capable of physical work. She would also discuss, at length,
[24:13] Speaker 2: Jason's many mental health issues in both her interviews and testimony.
[24:18] Speaker 2: Jason suffered from severe depression and had been institutionalized at
[24:22] Speaker 2: least twice as an adult. Additionally... Jason battled kidney cancer
[24:29] Speaker 2: early in their marriage while in Indiana, something Kelly never
[24:33] Speaker 2: brought up in her courtroom testimony for reasons we'll get
[24:36] Speaker 2: into in a future episode. Needless to say, the cancer
[24:41] Speaker 2: disabled Jason for approximately 18 months, leaving him unable to
[24:47] Speaker 2: walk and, as he would strangely point out, have sex.
[24:53] Speaker 2: According to Jason... That cancer is what caused Kelly to
[24:57] Speaker 2: stray from their marriage, with both men and women. And
[25:02] Speaker 2: according to records, it also caused extreme financial hardships for
[25:07] Speaker 2: the pair. By 2011, Kelly and Jason were being sued
[25:13] Speaker 2: by at least three different companies for unpaid medical bills,
[25:18] Speaker 2: which resulted in liens on their house, failures to appear
[25:23] Speaker 2: in court, and warrants for Kelly's arrest. Ultimately, Kelly was
[25:29] Speaker 2: forced to pay several thousand dollars in legal fees and
[25:32] Speaker 2: restitution in late 2013, which might account for the Cochran's
[25:37] Speaker 2: sudden departure from Hobart to Caspian, 400 miles away, in
[25:42] Speaker 2: the Upper Peninsula of Michigan in January of 2014. When
[25:47] Speaker 2: the Cochrans left Indiana, they left many of their court-ordered
[25:51] Speaker 2: payment plans abandoned.
[25:54] Speaker 7: Now, at some point, let me skip ahead a few years,
[25:58] Speaker 7: you decided.
[25:58] Speaker 1: To move up here to Michigan. Can you tell us
[26:01] Speaker 1: about when that was and why you wanted to move
[26:03] Speaker 1: up here? Yeah, we moved up here, moved into the.
[26:07] Speaker 4: House January 29, 2014, to 66 Lawrence Street. Before this,
[26:15] Speaker 4: we were having more issues than we had at home
[26:19] Speaker 4: in Indiana.
[26:21] Speaker 1: He decided that we would move up here. I picked
[26:24] Speaker 1: the state because he was able.
[26:25] Speaker 4: To grow marijuana and smoke marijuana legally. He grew it
[26:29] Speaker 4: at home in Indiana, but it was legal up here.
[26:33] Speaker 2: Sure.
[26:34] Speaker 1: I believe there are other reasons, but I can't be sure.
[26:39] Speaker 7: Now, I think you told me that you moved up
[26:41] Speaker 7: here hoping that maybe you'd get a fresh start with
[26:43] Speaker 7: Jason and maybe a new change.
[26:45] Speaker 1: Maybe we do the marriage. Am I correct in what
[26:49] Speaker 1: you said?
[26:49] Speaker 6: Correct.
[26:50] Speaker 1: All right. That happen? No. What happened when you first
[26:55] Speaker 1: moved up there? He was more jealous. He still wasn't.
[27:00] Speaker 4: He had no intentions of going to work. I didn't
[27:03] Speaker 4: work for two months. I wasn't in a hurry to
[27:06] Speaker 4: get back to work. We had money saved up.
[27:11] Speaker 1: It wasn't in a hurry, so I was at home more,
[27:13] Speaker 1: but then I started looking for work and started working again.
[27:17] Speaker 1: Where did you find work at? First place was Ace
[27:20] Speaker 1: Hardware in Iron River. What would you do there? Just
[27:23] Speaker 1: tell us briefly. Cashier, stock, make keys, cut glass, help
[27:29] Speaker 1: with different projects.
[27:31] Speaker 5: Okay.
[27:33] Speaker 1: You said that was the first place you worked? I
[27:34] Speaker 1: think it implies it was the second place.
[27:36] Speaker 7: Can you tell us about that?
[27:37] Speaker 1: Yeah, that was the first place up here. Second place
[27:40] Speaker 1: was Mr. T's Restaurant in Iron River. Okay, and what
[27:44] Speaker 1: would you do there? I was a server, waiting on people.
[27:48] Speaker 1: I was working there evenings when I was working at
[27:51] Speaker 1: Ace Driver and everything else.
[27:53] Speaker 7: At some point, though, you got a job at the Oldenburg.
[27:56] Speaker 7: Can you tell us about the circumstances behind that?
[27:59] Speaker 1: Yeah, I had an Oldenburg job. end of March. That
[28:03] Speaker 1: was definitely the kind of work I'd rather do compared
[28:06] Speaker 1: to the other stuff.
[28:06] Speaker 6: It was more hands-on, fixing things, building things. I got
[28:11] Speaker 6: a call in mid-May. My orientation after.
[28:17] Speaker 4: The drug screening and physical was May 27, 2014.
[28:24] Speaker 1: What specifically would you do? You said you fixed.
[28:26] Speaker 7: Things and made things.
[28:27] Speaker 1: I don't know if they would.
[28:28] Speaker 7: Have ever tested specifically what you would be doing there.
[28:32] Speaker 1: My job there was electrical assembly.
[28:34] Speaker 4: We would, you know, follow through blueprints and, you know,
[28:38] Speaker 4: put the electrical wires and connections, make connections.
[28:41] Speaker 1: On some of the mining machines and just put things together.
[28:45] Speaker 7: And you said you had a drug test there.
[28:47] Speaker 1: Presumably you passed that drug test.
[28:48] Speaker 5: I did.
[28:49] Speaker 7: And so would you be fair to say around that
[28:51] Speaker 7: time you weren't using drugs?
[28:53] Speaker 4: The last time I had used anything before the drug
[28:55] Speaker 4: test was probably six weeks prior, and it was marijuana.
[28:58] Speaker 1: Okay, and why was that?
[29:00] Speaker 7: Did you want to do it, or what was the point.
[29:03] Speaker 2: Of your mind?
[29:04] Speaker 1: I knew I'd have to take the drug test. So
[29:07] Speaker 1: how about these other jobs? Did you keep them as well?
[29:10] Speaker 1: I just do teas and Ace Hardware?
[29:12] Speaker 4: Ace Hardware, I did end up quitting on.
[29:17] Speaker 4: I want to say then that I'm not for certain
[29:19] Speaker 4: on the date because I couldn't keep all three jobs.
[29:22] Speaker 1: But I did keep Mr. T's and Oldenburg. Oldenburg, I
[29:26] Speaker 1: started working.
[29:27] Speaker 4: $ 40 to $ 60 a week.
[29:29] Speaker 1: And I was doing Mr. T's at night, and it
[29:32] Speaker 1: was too much because I was getting up at three
[29:33] Speaker 1: in the morning, working there until, you know, my shift
[29:38] Speaker 1: was 5 a.m.
[29:39] Speaker 4: Until 3 p.m., you know, so I had to work
[29:43] Speaker 4: from that time, and then I'd usually start four or
[29:45] Speaker 4: five o'clock at Mr.
[29:47] Speaker 1: T's. Mr.
[29:49] Speaker 4: T's, I got fired from there.
[29:53] Speaker 1: They said it was because of my attendance and for theft.
[29:55] Speaker 5: Okay.
[29:56] Speaker 1: Did you steal anything from Mr. T's?
[29:58] Speaker 4: No.
[30:00] Speaker 7: You had some attendance issues, though? Yes.
[30:02] Speaker 1: Tell us about those. I missed several dates there. I
[30:08] Speaker 1: told my nephew I didn't go to a funeral. I
[30:11] Speaker 1: went down to Indiana to do some side work for
[30:14] Speaker 1: a pool. I was making a lot of money doing that.
[30:19] Speaker 2: Upon their arrival to the Upper Peninsula, Kelly was essentially
[30:23] Speaker 2: working around the clock to keep the pair afloat. especially
[30:28] Speaker 2: in light of a trail of debt that followed them
[30:31] Speaker 2: and Jason's either unwillingness or inability to work, depending on
[30:36] Speaker 2: who you ask. However, it wasn't solely Jason's medical expenses
[30:42] Speaker 2: that were a drain on their finances. Kelly has admitted
[30:46] Speaker 2: on multiple occasions to being a frequent drug user. She
[30:51] Speaker 2: habitually used everything from marijuana to prescription drugs like Xanax
[30:55] Speaker 2: and Vicodin, to party drugs like ecstasy and GHB, and
[31:00] Speaker 2: even harder drugs like heroin and cocaine. And while throughout
[31:05] Speaker 2: the investigation into Kelly and the ensuing trial, she would
[31:09] Speaker 2: say she used drugs as an escape from her troubled marriage,
[31:13] Speaker 2: records indicate that she actually began abusing drugs long before
[31:17] Speaker 2: she and Jason became romantic. And this is one of
[31:21] Speaker 2: the more remarkable and terrifying things about Kelly Cochran. Not
[31:26] Speaker 2: only was she working around the clock in Caspian and
[31:30] Speaker 2: remodeling her new house while abusing party designer and hard drugs,
[31:35] Speaker 2: earlier in life she managed to graduate from high school
[31:38] Speaker 2: with honors, while doing the same and barely even attending class.
[31:44] Speaker 2: Kelly was repeatedly reprimanded for her severe attendance issues in
[31:49] Speaker 2: school and later in life at all of her jobs.
[31:53] Speaker 2: Knowing what I know now about Kelly, it's absolutely terrifying
[31:57] Speaker 2: to think about what she could have achieved if she'd
[32:00] Speaker 2: actually applied herself, which is a funny thing to say
[32:04] Speaker 2: forebodingly about someone. Instead, she partied, and according to multiple
[32:10] Speaker 2: reports and lawsuits, she paid for that partying through theft.
[32:16] Speaker 1: But you were the one who was the admitted scammer
[32:17] Speaker 1: in my entire life, correct? That's what you said that
[32:20] Speaker 1: was in my life. That's what you wrote in your letter, correct?
[32:23] Speaker 1: That's correct.
[32:25] Speaker 5: Your words, correct?
[32:26] Speaker 1: That's what I wrote.
[32:31] Speaker 2: In fact, in the midst of her legal battles over
[32:34] Speaker 2: Jason's medical debts, Kelly registered corporate filings for a non-profit,
[32:41] Speaker 2: ironically called Unconditional Love and Hope. Unconditional Love and Hope
[32:48] Speaker 2: wouldn't dissolve for three years. but in its lifetime, has
[32:53] Speaker 2: a very questionable record at best. A record we'll be
[32:58] Speaker 2: exploring in a future episode. All this is to say,
[33:04] Speaker 2: Kelly Cochran is a goddamn liar. And unlike Keyes, who
[33:10] Speaker 2: generally lied to avoid talking about things he didn't want
[33:13] Speaker 2: to talk about, Kelly lied just to lie. She lied
[33:18] Speaker 2: to protect herself. She lied to derail the investigation. She
[33:24] Speaker 2: lied to make herself look stronger, better, smarter. She lied
[33:30] Speaker 2: to scare people. She lied just to lie. Which is
[33:37] Speaker 2: why the case of Kelly Cochran is so incredibly murky.
[33:42] Speaker 2: There's what she initially told law enforcement happened. There's what
[33:47] Speaker 2: Jason said happened. There's what she told law enforcement happened
[33:51] Speaker 2: during a second round of interviews. There's what Jason's manuscript
[33:56] Speaker 2: says happened. Yes, we have another manuscript on our hands.
[34:01] Speaker 2: There's what physical evidence says happened. There's what Kelly's attorneys
[34:05] Speaker 2: say happened. There's what Kelly's friends and family say happened.
[34:10] Speaker 2: There's what Kelly said happened in third, fourth, and fifth interviews.
[34:15] Speaker 2: And then there's what Kelly has said both privately and
[34:18] Speaker 2: publicly since being sentenced to life plus 65 years in prison.
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[36:25] Speaker 2: TCB with code TCB. Here is what we do know.
[36:34] Speaker 2: Two months after the Cochran's move to the Upper Peninsula...
[36:38] Speaker 2: Kelly got a job in neighboring Iron River, working for
[36:42] Speaker 2: the Oldenburg Group, a global supplier of metals, mining materials,
[36:48] Speaker 2: and military defense products, where Kelly worked as an electrical assembler.
[36:54] Speaker 2: And even though Kelly was hired by Oldenburg in late
[36:57] Speaker 2: March of 2014, she didn't actually start working at the
[37:01] Speaker 2: plant until May 27th, due to a required drug test
[37:05] Speaker 2: and a physical test. both of which she was able
[37:09] Speaker 2: to pass despite her alleged drug abuse. I bring up
[37:13] Speaker 2: the delay in her start date only to highlight how
[37:16] Speaker 2: much Kelly got done in her first four and a
[37:19] Speaker 2: half months at Oldenburg. And by how much she got done,
[37:23] Speaker 2: I mean how much chaos she created, least of which
[37:28] Speaker 2: was getting fired for, you guessed it, attendance issues. Now,
[37:40] Speaker 2: it has to be said that what we now know
[37:42] Speaker 2: about Kelly Cochran, and the picture I painted of her,
[37:46] Speaker 2: is not entirely reflective of how she was initially viewed
[37:50] Speaker 2: in Iron County, Michigan. Kelly was extremely charismatic and an
[37:56] Speaker 2: incredibly hard worker. While she was using drugs, committing petty theft,
[38:02] Speaker 2: and running from deaths and lawsuits, Kelly was also making
[38:07] Speaker 2: friends and supporting her community, In her neighborhood in Caspian,
[38:11] Speaker 2: she was known as a person who would mow her
[38:14] Speaker 2: elderly neighbor's lawns, host bonfires, and lend a hand to
[38:18] Speaker 2: anyone who needed it. She was talkative and friendly, and
[38:22] Speaker 2: knew just about everyone on her block. At Oldenburg, she
[38:26] Speaker 2: was regarded as highly intelligent, diligent, methodical, and a great employee.
[38:34] Speaker 2: Whether it was just Kelly's nature, or if it was
[38:37] Speaker 2: methodical and manipulative, Kelly knew how to make friends and
[38:41] Speaker 2: charm people, which might have ultimately been her downfall. Four
[38:51] Speaker 2: months after Kelly started working at Oldenburg, one of her co-workers,
[38:56] Speaker 2: Chris Regan, disappeared. Chris was a supervisor and team leader
[39:01] Speaker 2: on the military assembly team at Oldenburg. The 51-year-old was
[39:06] Speaker 2: highly regarded by the executive team there. which is why
[39:09] Speaker 2: it came as a blow when, on the morning of
[39:11] Speaker 2: October 14th of 2014, Chris announced that he'd accepted a
[39:16] Speaker 2: new job in Asheville, North Carolina, and was moving there
[39:20] Speaker 2: to be closer to his two grown sons. That morning,
[39:25] Speaker 2: he told HR that he needed to take the following
[39:27] Speaker 2: day off for a mandatory drug test for his new job,
[39:31] Speaker 2: but that he'd be back at the plant on the 16th.
[39:36] Speaker 2: Due to the unfortunate timing of his disappearance, when Chris
[39:40] Speaker 2: never returned to Oldenburg, it was presumed that he'd just
[39:44] Speaker 2: outright quit because of his pending move and new job.
[39:49] Speaker 2: In fact, Chris wasn't reported missing until October 27th, 13
[39:55] Speaker 2: days after he was last seen. His good friend and ex-girlfriend,
[40:00] Speaker 2: Terry O'Donnell, reported to the Iron County police that she
[40:04] Speaker 2: hadn't heard from Chris since 6 a.m. on the 14th,
[40:08] Speaker 2: when he called to let her know that he'd accepted
[40:10] Speaker 2: the new job in Asheville. Prior to that call, O'Donnell
[40:15] Speaker 2: and Regan spoke almost daily, and Terry hadn't been able
[40:19] Speaker 2: to get in touch with him since. Fortunately, Iron River
[40:25] Speaker 2: Police Department Chief Laura Frizzo took the missing persons report seriously, which, unfortunately,
[40:32] Speaker 2: is quite rare. And we'll get into just how poor
[40:36] Speaker 2: the general law enforcement and media response is to missing
[40:40] Speaker 2: men in a future episode. But that very night, Chief
[40:44] Speaker 2: Frizzo instructed Sergeant Cindy Barrett to take Terry to Chris's
[40:49] Speaker 2: apartment to look around. Terry had keys to the apartment
[40:53] Speaker 2: because her parents owned the building Chris lived in. In fact,
[40:58] Speaker 2: it was Terry's proximity to Chris Regan and the case
[41:01] Speaker 2: in general that would initially derail the investigation. Because not
[41:06] Speaker 2: only did Terry report Chris missing and have access to
[41:09] Speaker 2: his apartment, she also knew where his car had been
[41:13] Speaker 2: abandoned for the two weeks he'd been gone. Upon entry
[41:21] Speaker 2: to Chris's apartment, it was clear he hadn't moved to
[41:24] Speaker 2: North Carolina yet, as some had initially suspected. He had
[41:29] Speaker 2: half-packed boxes and to-do lists throughout, along with an unsigned
[41:34] Speaker 2: job offer, prescription medication, and his computer. After a preliminary
[41:40] Speaker 2: search of the apartment, Terry told Sgt. Barrett that she'd
[41:44] Speaker 2: seen Chris's car parked at a park-and-ride facility four miles
[41:47] Speaker 2: east of Iron River, in the extremely rural and forested
[41:51] Speaker 2: township of Bates. And so the pair drove directly from
[41:56] Speaker 2: Regan's apartment to the park and ride, where his car had,
[41:59] Speaker 2: in fact, been abandoned. I have to emphasize how incredibly
[42:04] Speaker 2: rare it is in any missing persons case for this
[42:07] Speaker 2: kind of search and progress to be made within the
[42:10] Speaker 2: first two hours of a report being filed. Chief Frizzo
[42:14] Speaker 2: and Sergeant Barrett took the report seriously from the get-go
[42:17] Speaker 2: and took immediate action. Terry O'Donnell went to the police
[42:22] Speaker 2: department prepared. She had keys to Chris's apartment. She had
[42:26] Speaker 2: located his car. She had all of her facts straight.
[42:31] Speaker 2: And all that preparedness on Terry's part resulted in her
[42:34] Speaker 2: becoming the prime suspect in Regan's disappearance. The park and
[42:41] Speaker 2: ride where Regan's car was abandoned sits within a heavily
[42:44] Speaker 2: forested mile of a lake and several abandoned mines. And
[42:50] Speaker 2: it's five miles in the opposite direction from where Chris
[42:53] Speaker 2: lived and worked in West Iron River. There was no
[42:57] Speaker 2: plausible reason for Chris's car to be in the remote area.
[43:01] Speaker 2: So while Terry had accidentally made herself the prime suspect,
[43:05] Speaker 2: two other theories were being floated by Iron River police. One,
[43:11] Speaker 2: Chris had gotten lost in the nearby woods while hunting
[43:14] Speaker 2: or fishing. Or two, Chris had gone there to die
[43:19] Speaker 2: by suicide. The suicide theory had pretty quickly been debunked.
[43:25] Speaker 2: Everyone who knew Chris said he was excited about his
[43:28] Speaker 2: new job and new move, that he looked forward to
[43:31] Speaker 2: being closer to his kids, that he was very much
[43:34] Speaker 2: ready to get out of the Upper Peninsula. So investigators
[43:38] Speaker 2: focused on finding out Chris's last known whereabouts, while Search
[43:43] Speaker 2: and Rescue searched the woods surrounding the park and ride.
[43:48] Speaker 2: In Chris's abandoned car, they found two pieces of possible evidence,
[43:53] Speaker 2: a knee brace that Chris was required to wear following
[43:56] Speaker 2: a recent surgery and very rarely took off, and handwritten
[44:01] Speaker 2: directions to 66 Lawrence Street in nearby Caspian, Michigan. While
[44:09] Speaker 2: the search was being conducted, Frizzo and Barrett pooled Regan's
[44:13] Speaker 2: financial records and found that his last known transaction was
[44:17] Speaker 2: on October 14th at 4.13pm at a gas station in
[44:22] Speaker 2: Iron River. They pooled surveillance and were able to confirm
[44:27] Speaker 2: that it was Chris, and Chris alone, at the gas
[44:30] Speaker 2: station that day. They also reached out to his new
[44:34] Speaker 2: job in Asheville and discovered that Chris never went in
[44:37] Speaker 2: for his mandatory drug test on the 15th. And then
[44:41] Speaker 2: they took a drive to the Oldenburg Group, a drive
[44:45] Speaker 2: that would drastically alter their investigation. Chris's HR manager had
[44:54] Speaker 2: a lot of new information for Chief Frizzo. But most
[44:58] Speaker 2: of it wasn't about Chris. but rather one of his co-workers,
[45:04] Speaker 2: a woman by the name of Kelly Cochran.
[45:07] Speaker 7: At some point, while over, you met Mr.
[45:12] Speaker 1: Regan, correct? Yep. Tell us about that. I first met
[45:16] Speaker 1: him on.
[45:19] Speaker 4: The day of my interview, which was the 22nd, he
[45:21] Speaker 4: was in the one of six that did the hiring.
[45:24] Speaker 1: That was the first time I met him. But I
[45:27] Speaker 1: would see him in passing.
[45:28] Speaker 4: He was in the military assembly, so that was the.
[45:32] Speaker 1: Section right behind the electrical assembly.
[45:35] Speaker 4: So, you know, he passed through. We made small talk
[45:38] Speaker 4: through that. We ended up talking more in the same room.
[45:46] Speaker 2: HR reported that Chris had a sterling reputation at Oldenburg,
[45:51] Speaker 2: and that when he never returned to work on October 16th,
[45:55] Speaker 2: it was assumed he'd just left for his new job.
[45:59] Speaker 2: The only questionable information they had on Chris were office
[46:03] Speaker 2: rumors that he was having an affair with a married
[46:05] Speaker 2: co-worker named Kelly. And there were other rumors about Kelly
[46:10] Speaker 2: having an affair with one of Chris's subordinates, a man
[46:13] Speaker 2: named Eric Erickson. And when asked about Kelly herself, HR
[46:19] Speaker 2: told investigators that shortly before Chris went missing, Kelly reported
[46:24] Speaker 2: that her husband Jason had tried to kill her and
[46:28] Speaker 2: then himself. In less than a year and a half,
[46:34] Speaker 2: two of the three men in Kelly's life would be dead.
[46:44] Speaker 2: Following that trip to Oldenburg, Terry O'Donnell was cleared, and
[46:50] Speaker 2: two new theories surrounding Chris and Kelly developed. One, that
[46:57] Speaker 2: a jealous Eric Erickson killed Chris Regan. Or two, that
[47:07] Speaker 2: Kelly's jealous husband, Jason Cochran, killed Regan.
[47:12] Speaker 4: And so.
[47:14] Speaker 2: On October 26th, the Iron River police headed to Jason
[47:18] Speaker 2: and Kelly Cochran's house, located at 66 Lawrence Street in Caspian, Michigan.
[47:31] Speaker 2: Their initial interviews with the Cochrans only fueled the theory
[47:35] Speaker 2: that at least Jason was involved in Regan's disappearance. In fact,
[47:41] Speaker 2: Jason was caught in a lie within seconds of answering
[47:45] Speaker 2: the door that night. When asked if Kelly was home,
[47:50] Speaker 2: Jason said no. And before Chief Frizzo could finish asking
[47:55] Speaker 2: where she was, Kelly emerged from an upstairs bathroom. And
[48:01] Speaker 2: when Frizzo asked Jason why he lied, Kelly answered for him.
[48:08] Speaker 2: In fact, once Kelly came to the door, Jason barely
[48:12] Speaker 2: said a word. He stood awkwardly and quietly in the
[48:16] Speaker 2: doorway as Kelly told investigators that Jason was just protecting her,
[48:22] Speaker 2: that she was having an affair with Chris, that she
[48:25] Speaker 2: was worried when Chris stopped responding to her texts and calls,
[48:30] Speaker 2: and then eventually upset when she figured that Chris had
[48:34] Speaker 2: just moved to North Carolina without saying goodbye. Frizzo described
[48:39] Speaker 2: Kelly as friendly, genuine, and cooperative. Jason, on the other hand,
[48:46] Speaker 2: made her incredibly uncomfortable. He was emotionless throughout their conversation,
[48:52] Speaker 2: even as Kelly described her affair with Chris. The Cochrans
[48:58] Speaker 2: agreed to meet with police the following morning to answer
[49:01] Speaker 2: more questions. And, again, at that meeting, Kelly was friendly, likable, cool,
[49:09] Speaker 2: and collected, Jason, however, was a complete mess. He started
[49:16] Speaker 2: crying almost immediately upon entering the interview room and told
[49:22] Speaker 2: investigators that he suffered from severe depression and anxiety and
[49:26] Speaker 2: had only just recently been released from a mental health facility.
[49:32] Speaker 2: Jason went on to tell investigators that he understood why
[49:36] Speaker 2: they were looking into him, and that he could reasonably
[49:39] Speaker 2: be perceived as the jealous husband. But he maintained his innocence,
[49:45] Speaker 2: and the couple both promised to make themselves available to
[49:49] Speaker 2: police throughout the investigation. And while Iron River detectives remain
[49:55] Speaker 2: dubious of Jason, initial interviews from friends and neighbors painted
[50:00] Speaker 2: a pretty innocent picture. They told police that around the
[50:05] Speaker 2: time Chris went missing, The Cochrans hadn't appeared strange or
[50:09] Speaker 2: suspicious at all. In fact, they were actually quite busy.
[50:15] Speaker 2: Kelly was working two jobs. They hosted several backyard bonfires
[50:19] Speaker 2: and a barbecue. They were remodeling their house. Kelly was
[50:24] Speaker 2: doing her usual neighborhood lawn mowing. And Kelly's parents had
[50:29] Speaker 2: recently visited for a weekend. Everything appeared to be normal.
[50:34] Speaker 2: if not irregularly busy at the Cochran house. At least,
[50:40] Speaker 2: that's what neighbors reported at first. 0, 21, 14, 6, 9.
[50:57] Speaker 2: These are the various numbers of murders attributed to Kelly
[51:00] Speaker 2: Cochran in since her arrest in Wingo, Kentucky in 2016.
[51:05] Speaker 2: As of today, only two have been confirmed, Chris Regan
[51:11] Speaker 2: and Jason Cochran. However, a clause in her plea agreement,
[51:19] Speaker 2: a highly irregular plea that landed her life in prison
[51:23] Speaker 2: with no possibility for parole, might just corroborate Kelly's claims
[51:28] Speaker 2: that that number is much, much higher. And, much like Keyes,
[51:35] Speaker 2: if Kelly is to be believed, those murders span at
[51:39] Speaker 2: least five different states over a 13-year period. But, unlike Keyes,
[51:47] Speaker 2: Kelly claims to have been romantic with most of her victims.
[51:53] Speaker 2: Like I said, It's the people you willingly let in
[51:58] Speaker 2: who are most likely to do you harm.
[52:01] Speaker 8: This episode was written, produced, and researched by me, your host,
[52:06] Speaker 8: Josh Hallmark, with consultation by Michelle Kazuba.
[52:25] Speaker 2: Research sources include the docuseries Dead North, Psychology Today, the
[52:32] Speaker 2: Iron County Reporter, and the Iron Mountain Daily News. This
[52:36] Speaker 2: episode featured music by William Hellfire, Chris Zabriskie, Wythe, Sergei Cheromisenov,
[52:44] Speaker 2: Doom Squad, and My Brightest Diamond.
[52:47] Speaker 8: Left one dead, left one, ooh, love a killer.
[53:07] Speaker 5: I can dream my future, dream my future On the
[53:14] Speaker 5: other I can feel my.
[53:17] Speaker 1: Nature, feel my nature.
[53:27] Speaker 8: Inside myself I have a moment.
[53:32] Speaker 1: To choose.
[53:38] Speaker 5: Or to let.
[53:39] Speaker 8: Loose the calling crow, the pulsing throat.
[53:44] Speaker 1: Love a killer killer.
[54:08] Speaker 5: See you next time. Thank you.

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