# Responsibilities Not Rights: A Tūhoe Perspective

An episode of [Drilled](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1439735906), 31 Mar 2022, 14 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/tracking.swap.fm/track/SxlTEPDY7xDg35RXkASs/pdrl.fm/3e5572/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/9a7ab5ee-ce11-48ff-a544-b3ec00ea9b1e/a531469e-57c8-45d8-874f-b3ec00f17878/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=7f82f371-6316-4ea6-a108-b3ec00ea9b2d

When Tūhoe negotiated legal personhood for their ancestral homeland Te Urewera, the global rights of nature community cheered. But in this conversation about how the case connects to rights of nature overall, and to the global push for climate action, Tamati Kruger, Tūhoe negotiator and chairman of the board that now oversees Te Urewera, explains that for Tūhoe it's about the responsibilities of people to protect the land and each other—not rights. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:11] Speaker 1: Our fourth episode this season, Children of the Mist, took
[0:15] Speaker 1: us to aute rowa, New Zealand, where a law called
[0:18] Speaker 1: the tey Uuwera Act recognized a rainforest as its own
[0:22] Speaker 1: legal entity. Today, we're bringing you a bonus episode so
[0:26] Speaker 1: that you can hear more from Tarmati Kruger, the chair
[0:29] Speaker 1: of the Board of Humans that act as the legal
[0:32] Speaker 1: guardians of Teyuduwara. If you haven't listened already, the full
[0:37] Speaker 1: episode goes into some of the history of how tou Hoi,
[0:40] Speaker 1: the Maori tribe who called Teyuuwera home, had their land
[0:44] Speaker 1: violently and illegally confiscated during colonization. Unlike the New Zealand government,
[0:50] Speaker 1: which views land as property, to hoy believe that Teyuuwera
[0:55] Speaker 1: is their ancestor. In that episode, how as a two
[1:01] Speaker 1: Hi negotiator, Tarmaiti Kruger helped to introduce an indigenous understanding
[1:05] Speaker 1: of nature into New Zealand law. Today, we're sharing with
[1:10] Speaker 1: you more of i interview with Kruger. You'll also hear
[1:13] Speaker 1: a bit later on from Kirsty Luke, the CEO of
[1:16] Speaker 1: the Twohwii Tribal Authority, who joined us for the interview
[1:19] Speaker 1: and gave her insights into the Teyutawarra Act and climate change.
[1:25] Speaker 1: Welcome back to Damages. I'm Lindel Rowdins.
[1:41] Speaker 2: I had heard about rights of nature for a while,
[1:44] Speaker 2: but right when I was starting to dig into it
[1:46] Speaker 2: a little bit more, this great documentary came out. It's
[1:49] Speaker 2: called Invisible Hand. It's the third film from directors Joshua
[1:53] Speaker 2: Prabanik and Melissa Troutman and executive producer Mark Ruffalo. It's
[1:58] Speaker 2: one seven Best Documentary Words and received laurels from twenty
[2:02] Speaker 2: two international film festivals. It's an excellent deep dive on
[2:07] Speaker 2: the subject of rights of nature. If you want to
[2:09] Speaker 2: dig into it even more after listening to this series,
[2:12] Speaker 2: I highly highly recommend it. It's a paradigm shifting documentary
[2:16] Speaker 2: that does not leave viewers in total despair, but actually
[2:20] Speaker 2: provides some inspirational solutions, strategies and stories that will move
[2:25] Speaker 2: you to take action where you live. If you haven't
[2:28] Speaker 2: seen Invisible Hand, you're missing out. Go to Invisible handfilm
[2:33] Speaker 2: dot com for more on where to watch and how
[2:36] Speaker 2: to support this great work.
[2:43] Speaker 1: We originally looked into Tayo to Where this season because
[2:46] Speaker 1: it's considered one of the first examples in the world
[2:49] Speaker 1: of rights of nature. But as you'll hear Talma Ti
[2:53] Speaker 1: Kruger sees the Act as being a bit different.
[2:56] Speaker 3: My name's Tarmati. I'm the chair all the theater would aboard,
[3:01] Speaker 3: and I'm also the chair of the two where tribal authority.
[3:06] Speaker 3: I think perhaps the better way of getting an appreciation
[3:10] Speaker 3: of the picture of that first purpose of the Act
[3:15] Speaker 3: is to realize that after one hundred and eighty years
[3:18] Speaker 3: of colonization in Alpero in New Zealand, to Rouye, that
[3:23] Speaker 3: is a tribal group, is one of a number of
[3:28] Speaker 3: tribal groups that were afflicted by colonization, where primarily we
[3:35] Speaker 3: suffered prejudice and injustice and loss. When we had the
[3:40] Speaker 3: opportunity to look at resolving a settlement with the Crown
[3:46] Speaker 3: or with the New Zealand government, it was really based
[3:49] Speaker 3: on the need for justice, but that quality which the
[3:53] Speaker 3: Crown is unable to deliver to all indigenous people. So
[3:58] Speaker 3: the settlement that we negotiated with the Crown was for
[4:03] Speaker 3: the return of our entire homeland which had been confiscated
[4:10] Speaker 3: by the Crown and had left my people destitute for
[4:16] Speaker 3: one hundred years or more. So, the connection. The purpose
[4:22] Speaker 3: of the act, which is the connection of the two
[4:24] Speaker 3: where people with third weather, is around our identity, our
[4:29] Speaker 3: sense of belonging, our connection with the land, which our
[4:34] Speaker 3: identity and our sense of belonging all comes from the
[4:38] Speaker 3: very culture, from our literature to cuisine, to our art
[4:43] Speaker 3: and culture, to our language, to our traditions and customs.
[4:48] Speaker 3: They all come from our homeland, from the land. So
[4:53] Speaker 3: the purpose is to retrieve that sense of belonging, and
[4:59] Speaker 3: that is we're justice lies for ourselves.
[5:03] Speaker 1: The Tayoa Werreat became law in twenty fourteen, but Tamati
[5:07] Speaker 1: Kruger goes on to explain how fachu Hoi, the process
[5:11] Speaker 1: of reconnecting with their homeland after more than a century
[5:14] Speaker 1: of dispossession hasn't happened overnight.
[5:17] Speaker 3: I believe it has started the most sincere form of
[5:22] Speaker 3: healing and connection, we predicted that it would take us
[5:27] Speaker 3: no less than two generations, approximately forty years to see
[5:32] Speaker 3: the signs of the return and the restoration of our culture,
[5:39] Speaker 3: of our sense of belonging and of connection. And so
[5:45] Speaker 3: we are only ten years now into that journey, but
[5:49] Speaker 3: already we are getting a full sight of what we
[5:54] Speaker 3: have to do and the journey is most difficult, isn't
[5:59] Speaker 3: it for all in genous people, because we are exploring
[6:03] Speaker 3: the depth of hurt, the depth of damage and lost
[6:08] Speaker 3: to us or this is our journey that are beyond words,
[6:15] Speaker 3: and that all indigenous people around the world have to
[6:19] Speaker 3: confront and amount what we have lost, what we cannot
[6:26] Speaker 3: restore and repatriate, and what we have to design and create.
[6:32] Speaker 1: While the Tayota Water Act is considered by many to
[6:35] Speaker 1: be an example of the legal approach known as rights
[6:38] Speaker 1: of nature, to HOI have a different way of understanding
[6:42] Speaker 1: their relationship with the land.
[6:44] Speaker 3: We don't think describing it as rights is helpful in
[6:49] Speaker 3: our situation. To who believe that they are born with responsibilities,
[6:54] Speaker 3: not rights. We are born into a family that of
[7:01] Speaker 3: the environment that involves nature in our creation stories. There
[7:07] Speaker 3: is no space, no regard for ownership, entitlement or rights.
[7:13] Speaker 3: Where we are born as part of nature. It is
[7:17] Speaker 3: our point of origin and our point of return. As
[7:21] Speaker 3: to where people, we accept that we have obligations and
[7:26] Speaker 3: responsibilities not only to ourselves, but to how we live
[7:31] Speaker 3: where we live, and that it is our duty in
[7:34] Speaker 3: order for us to progress in advance as human beings,
[7:39] Speaker 3: we must know our place in nature. We don't see
[7:44] Speaker 3: that our struggle is a struggle of rights. It's rather
[7:49] Speaker 3: a struggle to restore our sense of responsibility to ourselves
[7:56] Speaker 3: and to nature we don't own. We don't own this land,
[8:01] Speaker 3: but we live with it, and our behavior and what
[8:07] Speaker 3: we believe in and what we sense will determine how
[8:12] Speaker 3: well we live with the land.
[8:15] Speaker 1: My next question was about what the two Hi approach
[8:17] Speaker 1: to nature might mean at a time when the climate
[8:20] Speaker 1: is changing. And for this question, Kirsty Luke, the CEO
[8:23] Speaker 1: of the Two Hawaii Tribal Authority, gave an incredible answer,
[8:27] Speaker 1: building on what Kruger had just explained.
[8:30] Speaker 4: I would say at the beginning of your questions was
[8:33] Speaker 4: one around the statutory purpose of Third Reader Act, which
[8:38] Speaker 4: is to strengthen the connection two where we're third water.
[8:44] Speaker 5: That is the first time or use of that term
[8:49] Speaker 5: in New Zealand legislation. What we were intending by that
[8:54] Speaker 5: was to very deliberately disrupt the idea of property rights,
[9:00] Speaker 5: of ownership, that being the thing that is determining breeding,
[9:05] Speaker 5: even one's attitude and entitled view of papasuniku of the
[9:14] Speaker 5: planet of land. So it's a small word in whatever
[9:19] Speaker 5: are the one hundred pages of that piece of legislation,
[9:23] Speaker 5: But it is the mighty word, because the word we
[9:25] Speaker 5: are using to undo the harsh damage of capitalism in
[9:31] Speaker 5: the hearts and minds of our children, and our families
[9:34] Speaker 5: and our communities. So our fear of climate change is
[9:39] Speaker 5: not for the land. The climate is evolving in a
[9:42] Speaker 5: way that is making it inhabitable for humans. But I
[9:47] Speaker 5: doubt the land itself is as distressed as we are.
[9:52] Speaker 5: We don't worry for the land. We All we see
[9:57] Speaker 5: is that we have lost, through our practices and our
[10:00] Speaker 5: behaviors and our care of land, that we have lost
[10:04] Speaker 5: the right to live here. So our problem is a
[10:09] Speaker 5: people problem. Our problem is a human challenge. It's a
[10:12] Speaker 5: humanity challenge. And that's why we and the medicine as
[10:17] Speaker 5: parvency has described as one of responsibility, of reconnection, of care,
[10:23] Speaker 5: not so that we can turn that care into a
[10:27] Speaker 5: currency called money and somehow pretend to each other that
[10:31] Speaker 5: we can survive fires and floods, but that our collective
[10:36] Speaker 5: click care might address the greed, the greed that we're growing,
[10:42] Speaker 5: that the must have entitlement, that insatiable, we deficit, thinking
[10:48] Speaker 5: that we just don't have enough when we do, that's
[10:51] Speaker 5: maybe not a great answer to climate change to make
[10:55] Speaker 5: less breed humans of it. That's all I've got for you.
[10:58] Speaker 1: No, you really got to the hut of the issue.
[11:02] Speaker 3: We're proud to be to where we're proud of the
[11:07] Speaker 3: customs and the traditions and the heritage that tells us
[11:12] Speaker 3: that we are from nature, we're part of nature, and
[11:16] Speaker 3: that we have responsibility. That is our salvation and that
[11:22] Speaker 3: is our future. This is not something we understand is
[11:28] Speaker 3: unique to where but to all indigenous people. And there
[11:33] Speaker 3: was a time in Western culture where it too was
[11:38] Speaker 3: their tradition, was their custom until they lost their way.
[11:44] Speaker 3: They now rely on the indigenous people to bring back
[11:49] Speaker 3: a heart memory of that because it's good for humanity
[11:57] Speaker 3: and it's good for the planet that we're round. That
[12:01] Speaker 3: we're blessed to be here. So you know, we are
[12:05] Speaker 3: grateful to the millions of people around the world that
[12:10] Speaker 3: dedicate their time, their intellect in raising gratitude, in raising
[12:17] Speaker 3: appreciation by all people and government, that we desperately need
[12:23] Speaker 3: to change the way we live, our lifestyle, our livelihood,
[12:27] Speaker 3: our values in order to be better humans.
[12:36] Speaker 1: That's all for this episode. Next week. Our season concludes
[12:40] Speaker 1: with a look at how industry is responding to the
[12:42] Speaker 1: push for rights of nature. So come back for that.
[12:45] Speaker 1: I'm Lindel Rowlins. Thank you for listening.
[12:53] Speaker 2: Damages is an original Critical Frequency production. This episode was
[12:58] Speaker 2: written and reported by The Rollins. Our editor and senior
[13:02] Speaker 2: producer is Sarah Ventry. Sound designed by Ray Pang, mixing
[13:07] Speaker 2: and mastering by Mark Bush. Our fact checker is Woo
[13:11] Speaker 2: dan Yan. Our First Amendment attorney is James Wheaton of
[13:15] Speaker 2: the First Amendment Project. Artwork for the show is drawn
[13:19] Speaker 2: by Matt Fleming. Our theme song this season is Bird
[13:23] Speaker 2: in the Hand by Fornown. If you like the show,
[13:26] Speaker 2: please remember to rate and review it wherever you're listening
[13:29] Speaker 2: and share it with your friends. Thanks a lot, and
[13:33] Speaker 2: we'll see you next time.

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