# Psychological Warfare and Big Oil

An episode of [Drilled](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1439735906), 28 Jan 2020, 21 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/tracking.swap.fm/track/SxlTEPDY7xDg35RXkASs/pdrl.fm/3e5572/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/9a7ab5ee-ce11-48ff-a544-b3ec00ea9b1e/575507f2-d45f-4271-b556-b3ec00f4b05d/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=7f82f371-6316-4ea6-a108-b3ec00ea9b2d

Daniel Edelman learned the tools of his trade combating Nazi propaganda in WWII, then came home and put his psychological warfare training to work for American industry, including tobacco and Big Oil. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:02] Speaker 1: These German pictures destined for certain neutral countries were intended
[0:05] Speaker 1: to spread Nazi propaganda.
[0:07] Speaker 2: But Doctor Goebels, just a few months after their meetings
[0:12] Speaker 2: with Ivy Ledbetter Lee, the third Reichs propaganda machine kicked
[0:17] Speaker 2: into high gear. Within a year, they were at war
[0:20] Speaker 2: and using the techniques they'd learned from Lee and others
[0:23] Speaker 2: to cover up atrocities and to sell the German public
[0:27] Speaker 2: not only on the war effort, but also on the
[0:30] Speaker 2: existence and superiority of the Aryan race. In the final
[0:37] Speaker 2: months of World War Two, that propaganda took a very
[0:40] Speaker 2: Ivy Lee style turn into completely made up news stories
[0:44] Speaker 2: about German wins in battles that had never even happened.
[0:48] Speaker 2: In those months, a young Jewish American reporter was charged
[0:51] Speaker 2: with analyzing and combating those claims. That man's name was
[0:55] Speaker 2: Daniel Edelman. Here he is remembering those days in.
[0:59] Speaker 3: The Psychological love Thing.
[1:01] Speaker 1: It's fascinating because we were upsetting the claims made by
[1:05] Speaker 1: the Germans.
[1:07] Speaker 4: It's all lies, I mean, we had to discline them.
[1:12] Speaker 2: Edelman would ultimately spend four years working in psychological warfare.
[1:17] Speaker 2: He became an expert on propaganda and how to combat it.
[1:20] Speaker 2: And you put that expertise to work for American industries,
[1:24] Speaker 2: from beauty products and Sarah Lee to cigarettes and Big Oil.
[1:28] Speaker 2: He added several new tactics to Big Oil's propaganda machine,
[1:32] Speaker 2: including a unique blend of lobbying and media relations that
[1:35] Speaker 2: he called marketing public relations, and a fun new thing
[1:40] Speaker 2: called astroturfing that involves creating fake grassroots groups. That's the
[1:45] Speaker 2: story we're going to dig into today. I'm Immy Westerveld,
[1:49] Speaker 2: and this is Drilled, Season three, The mad Men of
[1:52] Speaker 2: Climate Denial. Daniel Edelman was born in nineteen twenty in Brooklyn.
[2:05] Speaker 2: He was a diligent student and something of a boy genius,
[2:08] Speaker 2: so by sixteen he was already at university. He ultimately
[2:12] Speaker 2: went to Columbia Journalism School and spent the first year
[2:15] Speaker 2: or so of his professional life as a journalist, mostly
[2:18] Speaker 2: covering sports and human interest stories.
[2:21] Speaker 1: Oh the girl who loves a sow girl, He's the
[2:26] Speaker 1: girl who adores up right.
[2:29] Speaker 2: When the US joined World War Two, Edelman wanted to enlist,
[2:32] Speaker 2: but his poor eyesight got in the way. But within
[2:35] Speaker 2: a year so many infantrymen had died. The military didn't
[2:38] Speaker 2: really care much about things like eyesight. It needed bodies.
[2:42] Speaker 2: Edelman was drafted, but his vision still kept him off
[2:45] Speaker 2: the front lines, and his background in journalism made him
[2:48] Speaker 2: a perfect fit for counterintelligence. He was sent for training
[2:51] Speaker 2: and then on to join the Fifth Mobile Radio Broadcasting
[2:54] Speaker 2: Company in London. This is your American expeditionary station in.
[2:59] Speaker 4: The failed with the Fifth Army.
[3:02] Speaker 2: After learning for a while in London, Edelman was tapped
[3:05] Speaker 2: by a former Columbia classmate to join him in France,
[3:09] Speaker 2: helping to prepare a nightly analysis of German propaganda. Edelman
[3:13] Speaker 2: was soon in charge of the entire operation.
[3:19] Speaker 5: The job you work at there and I said fine.
[3:26] Speaker 2: When the fighting ended, Edelman was transferred to Berlin to
[3:29] Speaker 2: help shut down the German propaganda effort and state owned media.
[3:33] Speaker 2: He actually helped to start the popular German magazine Dershpiegel,
[3:37] Speaker 2: which he and a few other Americans ran for a
[3:39] Speaker 2: few months before turning over to German ownership. For a while,
[3:43] Speaker 2: Edelman thought he might stay in Germany and take a
[3:45] Speaker 2: job as a reporter there. Eventually, his family dissuaded him
[3:48] Speaker 2: and he returned home, and then, like Ivy Lee before
[3:52] Speaker 2: him and plenty of journalists since, Edelman struggled with whether
[3:55] Speaker 2: He wanted to report the news, or make the news,
[3:59] Speaker 2: live the life of a journalist, or take advantage of
[4:02] Speaker 2: the booming post war economy in America and get into
[4:06] Speaker 2: the business side of communications. He figured that his years
[4:11] Speaker 2: of psychological warfare would be valuable in the public relations business,
[4:15] Speaker 2: so he went for it. He took a job for
[4:17] Speaker 2: his brother in law's music label. Through that job, he
[4:20] Speaker 2: met the folks behind the Tony Hair Company, who eventually
[4:23] Speaker 2: hired him to run their PR department, which brought Edelman
[4:26] Speaker 2: to Chicago. As the PR guy at Tony, he took
[4:35] Speaker 2: the company's ad campaign, which Twin had attorney, on the
[4:38] Speaker 2: road with multiple sets of Twins. The campaign featured side
[4:42] Speaker 2: by side twins both with perms, and dared customers to
[4:46] Speaker 2: guests which had a salon perm and which had the
[4:49] Speaker 2: Tony Home perm, which Twin had attorney. You can't town,
[4:52] Speaker 2: nobody can not yet anyway, but wait, only Tony gives
[4:58] Speaker 2: you this. Twin g Media tours had been part of
[5:02] Speaker 2: political campaigns forever by this point, but product companies had
[5:06] Speaker 2: never really bothered with them. Edelman saw that as a
[5:09] Speaker 2: missed opportunity to score hundreds of local press hits and
[5:12] Speaker 2: move product and communities across the country, and he was right.
[5:16] Speaker 2: In addition to getting coverage in local newspapers, radio, and TV,
[5:20] Speaker 2: at one point during the tour, the twins were arrested
[5:23] Speaker 2: in Oklahoma for performing salon services without a license. Edelman
[5:28] Speaker 2: turned it into a national news story that made Tony
[5:30] Speaker 2: a household name. It also paved the way for another
[5:33] Speaker 2: new approach to pr one that included a bit of
[5:37] Speaker 2: lobbying on the side. The Oklahoma arrests happened because salon
[5:41] Speaker 2: owners were pissed about these home perm kits taking their business.
[5:45] Speaker 2: Salon owners and states across the country were mobilizing to
[5:48] Speaker 2: push for laws that would ban kits like the Tony Kit,
[5:52] Speaker 2: So Edelman got busy meeting with state legislators and applying
[5:55] Speaker 2: some of those psy ops moves that he'd learned, mocking
[5:58] Speaker 2: salon owners and their proper proposals until they were literally
[6:01] Speaker 2: laughed out of state building after state building. A couple
[6:05] Speaker 2: of years later, Edelman started his own firm, calling it
[6:08] Speaker 2: Daniel J. Edelman and Associates with Tony as his first client,
[6:12] Speaker 2: but within a few years he had signed several huge clients,
[6:15] Speaker 2: including Mobile Oil Sara Lee Hines and several tobacco companies
[6:19] Speaker 2: and tobacco trade groups. His hunch was proving correct. What
[6:23] Speaker 2: he'd learned about psychological warfare was extremely valuable to American industry.
[6:28] Speaker 2: If that sounds like an exaggeration, you don't have to
[6:31] Speaker 2: take my word for it. Edelman's son, Richard, brags about
[6:34] Speaker 2: this history and a tribute to his father on the
[6:36] Speaker 2: Edelman website.
[6:38] Speaker 6: My dad was a real New York City kid born
[6:40] Speaker 6: in Brooklyn, went on to Dewa Clinton High School, Columbia College,
[6:44] Speaker 6: and Columbia Journalism School. He went on to work in
[6:47] Speaker 6: Europe for the US Army for four years in psychological warfare,
[6:52] Speaker 6: and when he got out, somehow the cumulation of all
[6:55] Speaker 6: these experiences led him to become the father of marketing PR.
[7:00] Speaker 2: Marketing public relations is the term Edelman came up with
[7:04] Speaker 2: to describe his three hundred and sixty degree approach to PR.
[7:07] Speaker 2: It wasn't just media relations, it was also legislator relations
[7:12] Speaker 2: and truly public relations, where you were creating a direct
[7:16] Speaker 2: relationship between the company, or the industry or the brand
[7:19] Speaker 2: and the public. One way to do that was to
[7:22] Speaker 2: pretend to be part of the public yourself.
[7:25] Speaker 7: I'm a twenty year communications industry professional. I've worked in
[7:30] Speaker 7: corporate PR for a long time and on lots of
[7:33] Speaker 7: different accounts, including fossil fuel accounts, which I hated.
[7:36] Speaker 2: That's Christine Arena. She was an executive vice president at
[7:40] Speaker 2: Edelman's firm by that time, just called Edelman. Arena headed
[7:44] Speaker 2: up the firm's sustainability division right at the same time
[7:47] Speaker 2: that it was representing the American Petroleum Institute. She and
[7:51] Speaker 2: a few other executives at the firm made the news
[7:54] Speaker 2: when they quit on mass over the company's dealings with
[7:57] Speaker 2: fossil fuel clients. She can't share any specific insight information
[8:01] Speaker 2: about her time there, so she's speaking here generally about
[8:04] Speaker 2: the firm's reputation and about the techniques deployed by the
[8:07] Speaker 2: fossil fuel industry.
[8:09] Speaker 7: That creation of fake grassroot support, which came to be
[8:12] Speaker 7: known as like astroturfing, and Edelman was genius at doing that.
[8:17] Speaker 2: Edelman and his firm worked with multiple tobacco and oil
[8:20] Speaker 2: clients over the years. All big fans of astroturfing.
[8:25] Speaker 7: So fossil fuel industry organizations fund these fake front groups,
[8:30] Speaker 7: and they give these fake front groups these names that
[8:33] Speaker 7: sound they're like perfectly innocuous names like the California Driver's
[8:37] Speaker 7: Alliance or the Washington Consumers for Sound Fuel Policy, and
[8:42] Speaker 7: these groups there are hundreds of them, are usually secretly
[8:46] Speaker 7: run by lobbying organizations, like though two I just mentioned
[8:51] Speaker 7: are actually run by the Western States Petroleum Association, which
[8:55] Speaker 7: is a top lobbyist for the oil industry, and that group,
[8:58] Speaker 7: the Western States Petroleum Association, is in turn funded by
[9:03] Speaker 7: members including BP Shell, Exonmobile, Chevron, and Occidental, among others.
[9:08] Speaker 7: So it's fake activism, it's corporate money posing as activism,
[9:15] Speaker 7: and it's designed to undo all of the progress that
[9:18] Speaker 7: real activism makes.
[9:20] Speaker 2: Working for both tobacco and fossil fuel clients, Edelman also
[9:24] Speaker 2: invented litigation pr basically making his clients' cases in the media.
[9:30] Speaker 2: A critical aspect of this was what Arena calls the
[9:33] Speaker 2: attack the messenger strategy.
[9:35] Speaker 7: They are relentless at the attack the messenger strategy.
[9:38] Speaker 2: This has been ongoing for.
[9:40] Speaker 1: Like thirty years.
[9:41] Speaker 7: So the most effective attack the messengers strategy.
[9:44] Speaker 2: To me is like the use of labeling.
[9:46] Speaker 7: So for example, if climate scientists refer to facts and
[9:50] Speaker 7: data rather than ideology, then they're labeled liberal elites. If
[9:55] Speaker 7: climate scientists or activists are alarmed by the data, then
[9:59] Speaker 7: they're alarmists. If climate scientists apply for grant dollars to
[10:04] Speaker 7: fund their research, then they are accused of being in
[10:08] Speaker 7: it for the money.
[10:09] Speaker 1: The report is made by scientists that get paid to
[10:12] Speaker 1: further the politics of global warming.
[10:14] Speaker 6: If there was no climate change, we'd have a lot
[10:16] Speaker 6: of scientists looking for work.
[10:18] Speaker 1: The reality is that a lot of these scientists are
[10:20] Speaker 1: driven by the money. All of this with the.
[10:22] Speaker 4: Global warming and a lot of it's a hoax.
[10:24] Speaker 2: It's a hoax.
[10:25] Speaker 8: I mean, it's some money making industry.
[10:26] Speaker 2: Okay Arena says that while tobacco used the same strategy,
[10:30] Speaker 2: the fossil fuel guys were just better at it. Big
[10:33] Speaker 2: Tobacco would attack the whistleblowers personally Big Oil they attacked
[10:38] Speaker 2: the whole idea of fossil fuels being any sort of
[10:41] Speaker 2: a problem, and because they'd spent decades crafting the narrative
[10:45] Speaker 2: that fossil fuel is an essential part of American life,
[10:49] Speaker 2: it was easy to call anyone who thought otherwise an American,
[10:52] Speaker 2: effectively politicizing the issue. Of course, we know that big
[10:56] Speaker 2: oil learned new tactics from Big Tobacco too, namely in
[10:59] Speaker 2: the form of science denial, and Daniel Edelman was right
[11:03] Speaker 2: there too. In the nineteen seventies, Edelman proposed an aggressive
[11:07] Speaker 2: campaign for the R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company. It contained
[11:11] Speaker 2: more than a few echoes of his time in the
[11:13] Speaker 2: trenches of psychological warfare.
[11:16] Speaker 1: Country soft, Country fresh. That's the taste you get wherever
[11:21] Speaker 1: you light up with Salem, because Salem gently air softens
[11:24] Speaker 1: every puff for the smoothest, most refreshing taste of any
[11:28] Speaker 1: Fielder cigarette.
[11:29] Speaker 2: The proposal begins by suggesting, for example, that quote the
[11:32] Speaker 2: non smoker must be made to feel that the smoker
[11:35] Speaker 2: cares about him. It is our sense that the non
[11:38] Speaker 2: smoker is divided into two general groups, those who don't
[11:41] Speaker 2: really care if others smoke, and those who are growing
[11:44] Speaker 2: more hostile to anyone who does smoke. We need to
[11:46] Speaker 2: woo the former group to our side and soften the
[11:49] Speaker 2: opposition of the latter. Step two is pure science denial.
[11:54] Speaker 2: Edelin recommends we need to pierce the solidly assumed notion
[11:58] Speaker 2: that no additional research is necessary on the subject of
[12:00] Speaker 2: cigarette smoking. Imaginative and creative ways must be found to
[12:05] Speaker 2: correct this impression. Of course, one of those creative ways
[12:08] Speaker 2: is to create doubt, and Edelman proposes, quote, we need
[12:11] Speaker 2: to counter public impressions based on oversimplification by dramatizing pinpointed
[12:17] Speaker 2: areas of study that are mysteries to researchers and scientists
[12:20] Speaker 2: on both sides of this issue. That proposal one Edelman
[12:24] Speaker 2: a contract, and the firm would go on to work
[12:27] Speaker 2: for Big Tobacco for more than a decade. If the
[12:29] Speaker 2: science approach they recommended for tobacco sounds an awful lot
[12:33] Speaker 2: like the climate science denial that started showing up a
[12:36] Speaker 2: few years later, there's a reason for it. Edelman also
[12:39] Speaker 2: worked for several fossil fuel clients and the American Petroleum Institute,
[12:43] Speaker 2: and that's important because by the nineteen eighties, the API
[12:47] Speaker 2: Ivy Lee's brainchild, was pushing the industry away from researching
[12:51] Speaker 2: climate change and toward denying it. Former Exon scientist Richard
[12:55] Speaker 2: Worthemer told us that in Season one, the key.
[12:59] Speaker 3: Is the American Trolley Institute. Excellent had a huge influence,
[13:04] Speaker 3: rightly so in the API, and I think the API
[13:08] Speaker 3: changed hits tune and probably other majors went along with that.
[13:13] Speaker 2: And you can hear exactly the same sort of strategy
[13:16] Speaker 2: that Edelman suggested for R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company. In
[13:19] Speaker 2: this speech from then Exon Mobile CEO and American Petroleum
[13:24] Speaker 2: Institute President Lee Raymond in nineteen ninety.
[13:27] Speaker 5: Six, proponents of the global warming theory say that higher
[13:32] Speaker 5: levels of greenhouse gases, especially CO two, are causing world
[13:37] Speaker 5: temperatures to rise, and the burning fossil.
[13:40] Speaker 8: Fuels is the reason. The scientific evidence remains inconclusive as
[13:46] Speaker 8: the weather human activities affect the global climate.
[13:49] Speaker 2: You heard that right, Raymond said. The evidence that humans
[13:52] Speaker 2: contribute to climate change is quote inconclusive.
[13:55] Speaker 8: Scientific evidence remains inconclusive as the weather human activities of
[14:00] Speaker 8: the global climate.
[14:02] Speaker 2: But this speech was in nineteen ninety six, long past
[14:05] Speaker 2: the point where Exxon's own scientists had said climate change
[14:09] Speaker 2: would cause catastrophic damage for some percentage of the planet
[14:12] Speaker 2: in the not so distant future if emissions weren't curbed.
[14:18] Speaker 2: In the late nineteen nineties, Daniel Edelman's son, Richard, took
[14:22] Speaker 2: over as CEO, but Dan remained involved for the rest
[14:25] Speaker 2: of his life. In various interviews and in Dan Edelman's biography,
[14:29] Speaker 2: Richard said he talked to his dad daily about the business.
[14:33] Speaker 2: They didn't always agree. Of course, When he took the reins,
[14:36] Speaker 2: Richard almost immediately decided to drop tobacco clients. For example,
[14:40] Speaker 2: the writing was on the wall about tobacco by that point,
[14:42] Speaker 2: and what it cost the firm in tobacco billings it
[14:44] Speaker 2: more than made up for in good pr and new clients.
[14:48] Speaker 2: The firm did continue to apply the same strategies for
[14:51] Speaker 2: big oil for several more years, though, including as Daniel
[14:55] Speaker 2: Edelman's biography puts it, quote, putting a human face on
[14:58] Speaker 2: big oil. For the American Petroleum Institute leading the world
[15:03] Speaker 2: in oil and natural gas production, I.
[15:05] Speaker 5: Vote to keep it going.
[15:06] Speaker 2: With the right policies, we can produce, refine, and supply
[15:09] Speaker 2: more oil and natural gas. Edelman picked up where Ivy
[15:13] Speaker 2: Lee had left off, continuing to tie the extraction of oil, coal,
[15:17] Speaker 2: and gas to life liberty in the pursuit of happiness.
[15:21] Speaker 2: And again, it's hard not to see the roots of
[15:23] Speaker 2: Daniel Edelman's World War Two work in the approach the
[15:26] Speaker 2: firm crafted for big oil. Suddenly anyone who wasn't pro
[15:31] Speaker 2: oil was anti American. Daniel Edelman died in twenty thirteen,
[15:48] Speaker 2: but the firm that bears his name continued to apply
[15:51] Speaker 2: the same tactics that he'd been using effectively for decades.
[15:55] Speaker 2: In twenty fourteen, for example, Greenpeace leaked several documents that
[15:59] Speaker 2: showed an aggressive campaign Edelman had come up with for
[16:02] Speaker 2: trans Canada to push the Keystone pipeline. It included all
[16:06] Speaker 2: the same tactics we've talked about here, aggressive opposition research,
[16:09] Speaker 2: fake grassroots groups, attacking the messenger, and a big nationalistic
[16:14] Speaker 2: messaging push. In twenty fifteen, the firm announce that it
[16:17] Speaker 2: would no longer be working with coal companies or any
[16:20] Speaker 2: company that denied climate science. By that point, they'd already
[16:23] Speaker 2: lost not only executives but also clients, and the reputational
[16:27] Speaker 2: risk was just too great. However, around the same time,
[16:30] Speaker 2: Edelman also spun off its internal advertising group Blue, which
[16:34] Speaker 2: continued to work for the API. They were responsible for
[16:38] Speaker 2: that energy voter ad you might have seen in twenty sixteen.
[16:42] Speaker 5: More secure America, jobs, opportunity, and economic growth for our
[16:46] Speaker 5: children and grandchildren.
[16:48] Speaker 2: That's why this election, I'm voting.
[16:49] Speaker 3: For American energy.
[16:51] Speaker 2: For all the raw, raw America stuff the oil industry pushes.
[16:55] Speaker 2: These campaigns often worked to subvert democracy. In his most research,
[17:00] Speaker 2: environmental sociologist Bob Rule found that the biggest indicator of
[17:04] Speaker 2: fossil fuel pr spend was the likelihood of any sort
[17:08] Speaker 2: of climate legislation passing.
[17:10] Speaker 4: When you look at their public relations spending. The more
[17:14] Speaker 4: Congress starts to have hearings and write bills dealing with
[17:21] Speaker 4: climate change, the more they start spending on public relations
[17:25] Speaker 4: the next year. In other words, you start having hearings
[17:29] Speaker 4: this year, next year you're going to have a public
[17:32] Speaker 4: relations onslaught from the oil companies telling you how good
[17:36] Speaker 4: they are, how they're so responsible and good corporate citizens,
[17:41] Speaker 4: and that whatever problem it is that you're talking about,
[17:44] Speaker 4: they're right on top of it and handling it the
[17:47] Speaker 4: hidden messages, so therefore there's no need to regulate us
[17:52] Speaker 4: at all.
[17:52] Speaker 2: And in some cases they move even faster, as the
[17:55] Speaker 2: Washington Post just reported the American Petroleum Institute just dropped
[17:59] Speaker 2: a one million dollar targeted ad buy the day after
[18:03] Speaker 2: a couple of current Democratic candidates said they might ban fracking.
[18:08] Speaker 2: And in two thousand and eight, when Democrats controlled all
[18:10] Speaker 2: branches of the government headed into the big global climate
[18:14] Speaker 2: negotiations in Copenhagen, they were spending preemptively. The API alone
[18:19] Speaker 2: spent a whopping seventy five million dollars with Edelman.
[18:27] Speaker 4: I don't think there's any other way to call it
[18:28] Speaker 4: other than propaganda, which is a one sided message designed
[18:32] Speaker 4: to create a certain impression. That's exactly what it was,
[18:36] Speaker 4: and it's focused, targeted, extremely well done, and apparently pretty effective.
[18:43] Speaker 2: So we went from Ivy Lee working with standard oil
[18:46] Speaker 2: to World War One propaganda, to Lee advising Hitler and Gerbels,
[18:51] Speaker 2: to Daniel Edelman learning the tools of the trade by
[18:53] Speaker 2: studying and countering the Third Reichs propaganda in World War
[18:57] Speaker 2: Two and bringing those tactics right back to big Oil.
[19:02] Speaker 2: Next time, we'll meet another key architect of the propaganda apparatus,
[19:07] Speaker 2: Herb Schwartz, the pr legend who took on mobile Oil
[19:11] Speaker 2: after Edelman, and guess what. Schwartz also started out in
[19:15] Speaker 2: military intelligence. He wound up adding so many new bells
[19:18] Speaker 2: and whistles to the propaganda machine that we're going to
[19:20] Speaker 2: spend two episodes delving into his story. See You Then.
[19:31] Speaker 2: Drilled is part of the Critical Frequency podcast network. The
[19:35] Speaker 2: show is reported, written and produced by me Amy Westerbelt.
[19:39] Speaker 2: Julia Richie is our editor. Our managing producer is Katie Ross.
[19:43] Speaker 2: She also created this season's incredible artwork, sound design, scoring
[19:47] Speaker 2: and mixing by b Beeman. Riga Murphy is our editorial advisor.
[19:52] Speaker 2: Neambula Schaance is our fact checker. Special thanks to Richard
[19:55] Speaker 2: Wiles and to our First Amendment Attorney, James Wheaton and
[19:59] Speaker 2: the First Amendment Project. Drilled is made possible in part
[20:02] Speaker 2: by a generous grant from the Institute for Governance and
[20:05] Speaker 2: Sustainable Development. We appreciate their support. You can find Drilled
[20:09] Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[20:14] Speaker 2: Don't forget to leave us a rating, a review. It
[20:16] Speaker 2: really helps the show. And you can follow us on
[20:19] Speaker 2: Twitter now at we are Drilled and visit our new
[20:22] Speaker 2: website drillednews dot com for climate accountability, reporting, newsletters, and
[20:27] Speaker 2: behind the scenes stories from this season. Thanks for listening
[20:31] Speaker 2: and we'll see you next time.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.