# Garifuna land defenders vs. Survivor (as in the TV show) | The Spill

An episode of [Drilled](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1439735906), 2 Oct 2026, 47 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/tracking.swap.fm/track/SxlTEPDY7xDg35RXkASs/pdrl.fm/3e5572/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/9a7ab5ee-ce11-48ff-a544-b3ec00ea9b1e/a8fbad37-99a9-40c6-bcb5-b4d60150ebc9/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=7f82f371-6316-4ea6-a108-b3ec00ea9b2d

Amy Westervelt, Nina Lakhani and Alleen Brown chat about Standing Rock 10 years later, Global Witness's latest report on assassinations of land defenders, and why Palestinians in Gaza are land defenders, too. Meanwhile, Afro-Indigenous Garífuna leaders in Honduras have set up an occupation in front of the country's Supreme Court, in defense of their land rights. Nina interviews Karen Spring, coordinator of the the Honduras Solidarity Network, about what this has to do with Trump and the TV show Survivor. Reading list from today’s show: 1. The Propagandist, Drilled's narrative podcast series on propaganda aimed against the Standing Rock movement 2. Global Witness's annual report on assassinations of land defenders 3. Nina Lakhani's chapter on ecocide in Gaza is featured in the book Gaza: The Story of a Genocide 4. Nina's other book, Who Killed Berta Cáceres?: Dams, Death Squads, and an Indigenous Defender’s Battle for the Planet 5. El libro de Nina, traducción al español, ¿Quién mató a Berta Cáceres? 6. Reportage desde el campamento de resistencia Garífuna por la periodista Mexicana Blanche Petrich 7. Amy Westervelt's new book, Brought to You By: How Corporations Warped the Truth, Conned the Public, and Broke Democracy See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:17] Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hello, and welcome back to The Spill.
[0:37] Speaker 2: It's the three of us here again together.
[0:40] Speaker 1: Hooray.
[0:41] Speaker 3: Hello.
[0:43] Speaker 2: I'm Amy Westervelt. I'm joined by Aline Brown and Nina Lakhani.
[0:47] Speaker 2: And today we're going to talk about increasing criminalization of
[0:51] Speaker 2: environmental protesters across the board, but especially what's happening in
[0:56] Speaker 2: Honduras with the Garifuna, which is a community that Nina's
[1:00] Speaker 2: reported on for a long time. Before that, let's talk
[1:04] Speaker 2: a little bit about how this is playing out kind
[1:06] Speaker 2: of in general and has played out in some of
[1:09] Speaker 2: our reporting recently, too. Aline, you were just in North
[1:13] Speaker 2: Dakota for the Standing Rock anniversary, right?
[1:17] Speaker 1: Yeah, I was.
[1:18] Speaker 4: So I went out to Standing Rock Reservation and attended
[1:23] Speaker 4: a couple different anniversary events.
[1:25] Speaker 1: There was sort of this.
[1:26] Speaker 4: Grassroots gathering on the land of this woman who was
[1:30] Speaker 4: really involved in the No DAPL movement, the movement to
[1:32] Speaker 4: stop the Dakota Access Pipeline, which, for those who don't remember,
[1:36] Speaker 4: happened in 2016 and 2017. Huge thousands of people kind
[1:41] Speaker 4: of occupied the prairie trying to stop this oil pipeline. So,
[1:45] Speaker 4: you know, people were getting together and really reflecting on
[1:48] Speaker 4: the past 10 years and just reconnecting with each other.
[1:52] Speaker 4: There was also a separate event at the tribe's casino,
[1:57] Speaker 4: which was a conference on renewable energy, really centered around
[2:02] Speaker 4: indigenous groups doing renewable energy projects. It was really interesting.
[2:07] Speaker 4: I also was chatting with people around Bismarck and Mandan,
[2:10] Speaker 4: which are these cities that are close by. They're effectively
[2:14] Speaker 4: border communities because people from the Standing Rock Reservation go
[2:18] Speaker 4: there to buy groceries, go to Walmart, you know, do
[2:23] Speaker 4: things like that. And there's this long history of racism there.
[2:26] Speaker 4: So that community was a target of anti-protest propaganda during
[2:31] Speaker 4: that uprising, something that we covered in our recent series,
[2:34] Speaker 4: The Propagandist. But so I was kind of talking to
[2:37] Speaker 4: people at all these events and learning about how, you know,
[2:40] Speaker 4: what the past 10 years has brought. I think one
[2:43] Speaker 4: of my biggest takeaways is, you know, I think we're
[2:46] Speaker 4: going to talk about Global Witnesses annual report on killings
[2:50] Speaker 4: of land defenders internationally. A lot of people at this
[2:53] Speaker 4: gathering were talking about the mental health impacts of being criminalized.
[3:00] Speaker 4: They talked about one woman who was bitten by this
[3:04] Speaker 4: private security dog in this infamous incident that happened at
[3:08] Speaker 4: the beginning of 2020.
[3:10] Speaker 3: That movement.
[3:11] Speaker 4: She talked about sort of struggling with addiction and mental
[3:14] Speaker 4: health issues for years, only pretty recently kind of got
[3:18] Speaker 4: back on her feet. Another guy who faced federal charges,
[3:24] Speaker 4: you know, said that those years when he was dealing
[3:26] Speaker 4: with that, with that really like pushed him to the brink.
[3:30] Speaker 4: You know, these are indigenous land defenders. And I think
[3:33] Speaker 4: that's an aspect of criminalization that we don't talk about
[3:36] Speaker 4: a lot and that doesn't often get tracked in these reports.
[3:40] Speaker 4: You know, Standing Rock happened at the beginning of, or
[3:43] Speaker 4: the NoDAPL movement happened at the beginning of, Trump's first term.
[3:48] Speaker 4: And I think that's really kind of the beginning of
[3:51] Speaker 4: this period of increasing or a beginning of this period
[3:55] Speaker 4: of increasing criminalization of land and environmental defenders across the U.S.
[4:00] Speaker 4: and even internationally. That's now 10 years ago. So it
[4:03] Speaker 4: kind of provides a preview into the kinds of an
[4:08] Speaker 4: aspect of this growing authoritarianism and criminalization, again, that we
[4:13] Speaker 4: don't talk about often. So what does it mean if
[4:17] Speaker 4: police violence causes serious mental health harms? How do you
[4:21] Speaker 4: account for that? So that's one thing I was thinking about.
[4:24] Speaker 4: It was also just really interesting because the people in Mandan,
[4:28] Speaker 4: North Dakota, who, again, were targeted by this anti-protest propaganda,
[4:33] Speaker 4: people have really strong views sentiments against the water protector movement,
[4:38] Speaker 4: the no dapple movement. They were really felt like their
[4:41] Speaker 4: lives were disrupted. And again, that was fueled by Facebook
[4:44] Speaker 4: content that was created by Pipeline Company and their private
[4:48] Speaker 4: security firm. So now they are facing a data center
[4:54] Speaker 4: that is being built in the middle of their town.
[4:56] Speaker 4: Like it's really like Sort of almost across the street
[5:00] Speaker 4: from their high school or very close to their brand
[5:02] Speaker 4: new high school. And they are like organizing petitions. They're
[5:08] Speaker 4: doing all this, this organizing to stop it. I was
[5:11] Speaker 4: sort of curious. I was like, oh, maybe this like
[5:13] Speaker 4: changed the way that they're thinking about these protests that
[5:16] Speaker 4: happened here years ago. My quick survey and interviews with
[5:21] Speaker 4: folks that were signing these petitions indicated that it has
[5:24] Speaker 4: not changed hearts and minds. But it's just sort of
[5:29] Speaker 4: fascinating to see that the fight for protecting land and
[5:35] Speaker 4: water ultimately touches us all. And, you know, I wonder
[5:40] Speaker 4: if there are opportunities for solidarity in that.
[5:44] Speaker 3: I guess we'll see.
[5:45] Speaker 2: Interesting. You mentioned the Global Witness report and it just
[5:49] Speaker 2: came out, right?
[5:50] Speaker 1: What does this report say?
[5:51] Speaker 5: I mean, it says that as every year, the vast
[5:56] Speaker 5: majority of documented assassinations of land and environmental defenders is
[6:00] Speaker 5: in Latin America and the Caribbean. And I think Latin
[6:03] Speaker 5: America continues to appear as the most dangerous region in
[6:08] Speaker 5: the world to defend land and environment. in partly because
[6:12] Speaker 5: communities are so organized here right so there is there
[6:15] Speaker 5: are resistance movements um that date back centuries right and
[6:19] Speaker 5: certainly were like cemented and sort of um deepened during
[6:23] Speaker 5: the cold war period during all the dirty wars that
[6:25] Speaker 5: happened so i think that's part of it also this
[6:28] Speaker 5: is a very um resource rich um continent you know
[6:32] Speaker 5: and so it's sort of land disputes, over mining, over
[6:37] Speaker 5: coastal areas and deforestation, but fossil fuel projects, you know, historically.
[6:42] Speaker 5: But I think what we're increasingly starting to see and
[6:44] Speaker 5: isn't quite coming through yet in like the hard data
[6:47] Speaker 5: is the repression and violence against communities who are who
[6:53] Speaker 5: are struggling and resisting renewable energy projects and data centres.
[6:57] Speaker 5: Three quarters of the documented murders were of indigenous people, campesinos,
[7:04] Speaker 5: peasant farmers and Afro-descendant community leaders. So that's like stark,
[7:10] Speaker 5: you know, really stark. But, you know, I do think
[7:12] Speaker 5: we should just point out that this is, you know,
[7:15] Speaker 5: there's a real dearth of data everywhere.
[7:17] Speaker 3: Across many regions in the world.
[7:19] Speaker 5: Like, Global Witness would be the first to say that
[7:22] Speaker 5: the assassinations are sort of like.
[7:24] Speaker 3: The very tip of the iceberg.
[7:27] Speaker 5: Below that, you have, you know, the criminalization across Latin America. Thousands,
[7:33] Speaker 5: you know, of people who are in prison or have
[7:37] Speaker 5: been arrested and charged with usurpación. which, you know, basically
[7:41] Speaker 5: means aggravated trespass. So people who are being convicted criminally
[7:46] Speaker 5: for being on their own land, but also a whole
[7:49] Speaker 5: array of charges, terrorism, other national security stuff, you know.
[7:53] Speaker 5: And then below that, you've got, like you're saying, the
[7:55] Speaker 5: huge mental health impacts. So we really count on sort
[7:59] Speaker 5: of these hard numbers, which, again, are not, you know,
[8:04] Speaker 5: an underestimate themselves. But that's the sort of, you know, unfortunately,
[8:07] Speaker 5: you know, assassinations are the easiest thing to track.
[8:11] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[8:11] Speaker 4: And I think, you know, like you noted, they counted,
[8:14] Speaker 4: I think, three killings in the past year in the
[8:18] Speaker 4: entire continent of Africa out of 124 that they tracked.
[8:22] Speaker 4: You know, I just seriously doubt that that's it in
[8:25] Speaker 4: the entire continent, you know. And in terms of Palestine,
[8:28] Speaker 4: they did address their lack of tracking of killings of
[8:33] Speaker 4: Palestinian land defenders because, you know, there's a strong argument
[8:36] Speaker 4: to be made that most Palestinians fighting for their land are,
[8:42] Speaker 4: you know, land defenders and environmental defenders as much as
[8:46] Speaker 4: many of the people that are being tracked, you know,
[8:49] Speaker 4: by this organization in Latin America. So in 2024, Global
[8:53] Speaker 4: Witness did address this. They said, the resulting violence and
[8:57] Speaker 4: mass displacement caused by breakdowns in the rule of law
[9:00] Speaker 4: and the fracturing of civic spaces makes recording violations against
[9:03] Speaker 4: land and environmental defenders a challenge. Basically, the idea is
[9:07] Speaker 4: that in these conflict zones, it's just kind of too
[9:11] Speaker 4: hard to track. But, you know, for the record, at
[9:15] Speaker 4: least 74000 people have been killed. Palestinians, at least at
[9:21] Speaker 4: least in Gaza since October 7th, 2023, you know, in
[9:26] Speaker 4: this U.S. funded Israeli genocide. So something to just have
[9:32] Speaker 4: in mind.
[9:33] Speaker 3: I would agree with you.
[9:34] Speaker 5: I think every single Palestinian is a land rights defender, right?
[9:38] Speaker 3: Because that's ultimately what this is about.
[9:40] Speaker 5: And, you know, I wrote a chapter for a book
[9:43] Speaker 5: on the genocide called Ecocide in Gaza. And I interviewed
[9:46] Speaker 5: a Bedouin farmer for that book. And I remember he
[9:49] Speaker 5: said to me, you know, I will never leave my
[9:52] Speaker 5: land because I love my land like I love my children.
[9:55] Speaker 5: You know, and it's that, you know, the Palestinians are
[9:59] Speaker 5: their land, right? That is who they are. And that's
[10:01] Speaker 5: why Israel has absolutely obliterated Gaza, right? Because they know that,
[10:07] Speaker 5: you know, that land without Palestinians isn't Palestine.
[10:11] Speaker 3: You know. And so, yeah, there's it's they are. And so, yeah,
[10:14] Speaker 3: I would agree with you.
[10:15] Speaker 5: I think it's like a huge gaping hole, Africa as well,
[10:19] Speaker 5: you know. And so we have to sort of just
[10:21] Speaker 5: bear all of that in mind. But still, 124, you know,
[10:25] Speaker 5: land and environmental defenders we know were assassinated last year.
[10:29] Speaker 3: For defending their basic rights.
[10:31] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[10:32] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[10:33] Speaker 2: So, Nina, tell us a little bit about what's been
[10:36] Speaker 2: going on in Honduras recently. I know Trump has pardoned
[10:40] Speaker 2: the former president. That's kicked off a whole bunch of issues.
[10:45] Speaker 2: What's happening in Honduras right now? And who are the Garifuna?
[10:49] Speaker 2: What's going on with them?
[10:51] Speaker 5: So the Garifuna are the Afro-Indigenous people. They are rooted
[10:55] Speaker 5: in the island of St.
[10:56] Speaker 3: Vincent.
[10:57] Speaker 5: They are survivors of West Africa slave ships who then
[11:01] Speaker 5: mixed with the Indigenous people of St. Vincent and then
[11:04] Speaker 5: have settled on the islands and mainland of Central America
[11:08] Speaker 5: more than 200 years ago. They have deep ancestral ties
[11:12] Speaker 5: which have been recognised and confirmed by all sorts of
[11:16] Speaker 5: international bodies, UNESCO, the International Court of Human Rights. So
[11:20] Speaker 5: the Garifuna specifically and the Lenka people, which Bertha Caceres,
[11:24] Speaker 5: who was an indigenous defender and an incredible political analyst
[11:29] Speaker 5: who was murdered 10 years ago in 2016. March 2016,
[11:33] Speaker 5: they were two of the sort of communities that really
[11:38] Speaker 5: led a lot of the resistance after the 2009 coup
[11:43] Speaker 5: in Honduras.
[11:44] Speaker 1: Right.
[11:44] Speaker 5: And so in summer of 2009, a man called Mel Zelaya.
[11:48] Speaker 3: Who was a sort of reformist, who was.
[11:50] Speaker 5: Absolutely hated by the right wing elites of Honduras, the
[11:53] Speaker 5: neocons of the U.S., Hillary Clinton in particular, because he
[11:58] Speaker 5: was buying oil of Hugo Chavez. And he was ousted
[12:01] Speaker 5: in this sort of in a coup that was orchestrated
[12:04] Speaker 5: by this sort of right wing elite of religious, military, economic,
[12:08] Speaker 5: political leaders. And that ushered in this very right wing
[12:14] Speaker 5: pro-business political party called the National Party. And very, very quickly,
[12:20] Speaker 5: I'm talking in a year or two, Honduras became one
[12:23] Speaker 5: of the most dangerous places on the planet outside an
[12:27] Speaker 5: official war zone. It became the most dangerous place for
[12:30] Speaker 5: land and environmental defenders per capita. And it also, and
[12:34] Speaker 5: this isn't a coincidence, became the place where 80% of
[12:37] Speaker 5: the cocaine en route to the US was transiting through, right?
[12:42] Speaker 5: So this is all happening in the same time. The
[12:44] Speaker 5: National Party came in and did literally declared Honduras open
[12:48] Speaker 5: for business. And they started selling off their coastlines, their minerals,
[12:53] Speaker 5: their forests, rivers for dams to the highest bidder, international bidders, right,
[12:59] Speaker 5: who would generally work with their local wealthy partners, aided
[13:04] Speaker 5: by the military, aided by sort of international banking, etc.,
[13:08] Speaker 5: So I first went to Honduras and first met Berta
[13:10] Speaker 5: Cáceres and the Garifuna leaders like Miriam Miranda on election
[13:16] Speaker 5: day in 2013. And I remember really clearly, you know,
[13:19] Speaker 5: Berta was there warning international observers about, you know, the
[13:24] Speaker 5: sort of targeted assassinations that were happening at the time.
[13:28] Speaker 3: And that was the election that.
[13:29] Speaker 5: A guy called Juan Orlando Hernandez, this sort of super Zionist, evangelical,
[13:36] Speaker 5: authoritarian leader who'd been actually the head of Congress, was
[13:39] Speaker 5: elected as president.
[13:42] Speaker 3: And he stayed in power for eight years.
[13:44] Speaker 1: Right.
[13:45] Speaker 5: And during that time, Berta was assassinated. I mean, you know,
[13:48] Speaker 5: I mean, the criminalization and the violence against the whole,
[13:53] Speaker 5: all of civil society was really just horrific, but really
[13:56] Speaker 5: targeted against, you know, anyone resisting this sort of this
[14:00] Speaker 5: sort of extractive neoliberal project. And in that period, hundreds
[14:06] Speaker 5: of thousands of Hondurans left and tried to reach the
[14:09] Speaker 5: US because of the insecurity, because, you know, of the corruption,
[14:13] Speaker 5: because of the violence that was happening.
[14:15] Speaker 3: So he stays in power for eight years. He leaves power.
[14:20] Speaker 5: And very soon after that, he is indicted by the
[14:23] Speaker 5: Southern District of New York on.
[14:26] Speaker 3: Arms trafficking and drug trafficking charges.
[14:29] Speaker 5: And By this time, his brother, Tony Hernandez, who was
[14:32] Speaker 5: a member of Congress, had also been indicted and I
[14:36] Speaker 5: think had already been convicted. And so then, so he's
[14:38] Speaker 5: tried in New York, Juan Orlando Hernandez, and he receives,
[14:42] Speaker 5: he's found guilty and receives a 45-year sentence for trafficking.
[14:47] Speaker 5: like shitloads of cocaine into the US, right?
[14:51] Speaker 3: So he's in prison.
[14:53] Speaker 5: Fast forward a year or so, in comes our dear leader, Trump,
[14:57] Speaker 5: or your dear leader, Trump. And at the end of
[14:59] Speaker 5: last year, just weeks before, The U.S. launches this illegal
[15:05] Speaker 5: operation to abduct Nicolas Maduro from Venezuela, justified by the
[15:10] Speaker 5: fact they said he was a drug trafficker. Trump commutes
[15:13] Speaker 5: Juan Orlando Hernandez's sentence, a 45-year sentence for bringing huge
[15:19] Speaker 5: amounts of drugs into the U.S., commutes his sentence and
[15:21] Speaker 5: he pops off back to Honduras, right? At the same time,
[15:25] Speaker 5: Trump interferes in the general election at the end of
[15:28] Speaker 5: last year. And he backs a National Party candidate, this
[15:32] Speaker 5: guy who's a construction magnate, who was a member of
[15:36] Speaker 5: Congress as well. And while he was a member of Congress,
[15:38] Speaker 5: his name appeared in the Panama Papers. If we remember those,
[15:41] Speaker 5: that was this massive trough of sort of leaked papers
[15:44] Speaker 5: about high level officials who were linked to sort of
[15:48] Speaker 5: shady bank accounts in different countries. So, you know, we
[15:51] Speaker 5: get to January and Juan Orlando is back. And by
[15:54] Speaker 5: all accounts, back to controlling what's happening in the country.
[15:58] Speaker 5: The National Party are back in power, including a whole
[16:01] Speaker 5: bunch of people who have alleged ties to organized crime.
[16:07] Speaker 5: And then what we see in March is the Inter-American
[16:10] Speaker 5: Court of Human Rights. Issues its fourth favorable sentence for
[16:16] Speaker 5: the Garifuna community. And this time it relates to this
[16:19] Speaker 5: archipelago called the Cayo Cochinos, which is like maybe 40,
[16:24] Speaker 5: 50 miles out into the Caribbean. which the government had
[16:28] Speaker 5: several years before basically said they were converting it into
[16:32] Speaker 5: a national park and started leasing this land out to
[16:39] Speaker 5: the reality show Survivor, the Spanish version of the reality
[16:43] Speaker 5: show Survivor. And so the Inter-American Court said, absolutely not.
[16:47] Speaker 5: This ancestral land is, you know, the Garifuna's. The communities
[16:50] Speaker 5: that live there, they have fishing rights. There's also a
[16:53] Speaker 5: whole load of like the endangered species, including turtles that
[16:56] Speaker 5: breed out there. And that any use of that, the
[17:00] Speaker 5: archipelago has to be done in conjunction with the Garifuna people.
[17:04] Speaker 2: Right.
[17:05] Speaker 3: So that's March of this year.
[17:07] Speaker 5: And what we saw happen two or three months ago
[17:10] Speaker 5: is that five Garifuna leaders were arrested and they were
[17:15] Speaker 5: charged with these trumped-up charges of usurpación, so criminal trespass.
[17:20] Speaker 5: And so the Garifunas decide... That's it. They have tried everything.
[17:25] Speaker 5: They've done everything legally. They've gone to the courts and
[17:29] Speaker 5: no one is complying with the sentences. So they set
[17:33] Speaker 5: up this massive encampment in front of the Supreme Court
[17:36] Speaker 5: of Justice in Tegucigalpa in the capital.
[17:39] Speaker 3: And they've been there for two months now.
[17:42] Speaker 5: They also have two other encampments, one where Survivor is
[17:46] Speaker 5: filming just in that area there and another where the
[17:49] Speaker 5: five leaders were arrested and charged a couple of months ago.
[17:53] Speaker 3: So that's where we're at now.
[17:54] Speaker 5: And that's sort of what I wanted to talk to
[17:56] Speaker 5: Karen Spring, who is the coordinator of the Honduras Solidarity Network,
[18:00] Speaker 5: who's been, you know, involved and working and living in
[18:04] Speaker 5: Honduras for many, many years now.
[18:06] Speaker 3: So, yeah, so that's why we invited her on today. Awesome.
[18:09] Speaker 3: All right.
[18:10] Speaker 2: Just before we get to Karen, we do have a
[18:11] Speaker 2: little bit of video showing the Garifuna coming up against
[18:16] Speaker 2: the Survivor reality TV crew, which is.
[18:20] Speaker 3: It's unbelievable.
[18:21] Speaker 2: Tell us what's.
[18:21] Speaker 3: Going on here.
[18:41] Speaker 5: So this is a Spanish version of the reality show, which,
[18:43] Speaker 5: by the way, is absolutely massive in Latin America, right?
[18:46] Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, you know, the number one reality show.
[18:49] Speaker 5: So in spite of this international court sentence, the crew
[18:55] Speaker 5: just turn up, as usual, as they have been doing
[18:58] Speaker 5: for like several.
[18:59] Speaker 3: Years now, and just start filming this show. And it's just,
[19:02] Speaker 3: I mean, it just shows.
[19:03] Speaker 5: Utter, like, lack of rule of law and just the
[19:07] Speaker 5: guaranteed impunity punity that there is right for anyone that
[19:12] Speaker 5: has money and power in this country so what we're
[19:14] Speaker 5: looking at is now some local leaders filming the survivor
[19:19] Speaker 5: crew filming and saying we're just asking you to comply
[19:23] Speaker 5: with international law right you have no right to be
[19:26] Speaker 5: here this is what the court has said and like
[19:29] Speaker 5: we are just asking for you know you to just
[19:31] Speaker 5: comply with the law to to follow the law.
[19:34] Speaker 2: And it's really something, just a plug for watching this
[19:38] Speaker 2: on YouTube so that you can see this video because
[19:41] Speaker 2: the survivor crew is like filming the community leaders as
[19:47] Speaker 2: they're saying this stuff. And there's just like no reaction.
[19:50] Speaker 2: They're just like, uh-huh.
[19:52] Speaker 1: Okay.
[19:53] Speaker 2: It's really, it's really galling. um anyway yeah okay let's
[20:00] Speaker 2: hear your conversation with karen after this quick break.
[20:04] Speaker 5: You Karen Spring, welcome to The Spill, co-coordinator of the
[20:23] Speaker 5: Honduras Solidarity Network. And you got in touch a couple
[20:27] Speaker 5: of weeks ago about the awful situation facing the Afro-Indigenous
[20:31] Speaker 5: Garifuna people in Honduras.
[20:33] Speaker 3: Can you start off by just setting the scene for us?
[20:36] Speaker 5: What's been happening in Honduras since the National Party came
[20:39] Speaker 5: back to power in January and since the convicted drug
[20:43] Speaker 5: trafficking ex-president, Juan Orlando Hernandez, was released by Trump?
[20:48] Speaker 1: Okay, well, thank you so much, Nina, for inviting me. Basically,
[20:52] Speaker 1: since the beginning of this year, late January, the new
[20:56] Speaker 1: government of Honduras, led by Nasri Tito Asfura, has taken
[21:02] Speaker 1: power in Honduras. And what we've seen and what we're
[21:05] Speaker 1: seeing is basically a return to what Honduras was like
[21:11] Speaker 1: prior to COVID. the extradition of the former President Juan
[21:15] Speaker 1: Orlando Hernández. And so what do I mean by that? Basically,
[21:19] Speaker 1: Honduras is returning to what many called for 12 years
[21:24] Speaker 1: a narco state. And certain elements of that narco state
[21:29] Speaker 1: are sort of coming to surface again. They're being resurrected.
[21:33] Speaker 1: And what I mean by this as well is that
[21:35] Speaker 1: the same model, the same economic model that targeted land defenders,
[21:40] Speaker 1: human rights defenders, lawyers that spoke out against mega projects,
[21:46] Speaker 1: mega extractive projects around the country are once again being
[21:50] Speaker 1: targeted by a whole series of actions, including laws including
[21:56] Speaker 1: policies and the remilitarization of Honduran society. And so within
[22:01] Speaker 1: this context, there is lots of social organizing happening and
[22:06] Speaker 1: mobilization to sort of resist and to stop this once again,
[22:10] Speaker 1: the resurrection of this model that's being led by a
[22:14] Speaker 1: state that has a long history of targeting opponents and
[22:21] Speaker 1: of criminalizing land and human rights defenders.
[22:26] Speaker 5: Okay, so in early August, the Black Fraternal Organization of Honduras,
[22:31] Speaker 5: which is OFRANE, I mean, it's a Spanish acronym, and
[22:34] Speaker 5: it's the main organization for the Garifuna people, set up
[22:38] Speaker 5: a protest camp in front of the Supreme Court in
[22:40] Speaker 5: the capital, Tegucigalpa, which they've called for the life of
[22:43] Speaker 5: the Garifuna people. So Tegucigalpa is a long way from
[22:47] Speaker 5: Garifuna territory on the Caribbean coast. Can you tell us
[22:51] Speaker 5: why they have set up this encampment now and what
[22:54] Speaker 5: are their demands?
[22:56] Speaker 1: So this encampment is a really important element of actions
[23:02] Speaker 1: that OFRENE, the Afro-Indigenous Organization, is taking to demand that
[23:07] Speaker 1: the state of Honduras fulfill its international obligations. For years,
[23:13] Speaker 1: OFRENE has been fighting to have their ancestral land rights
[23:17] Speaker 1: all across the Caribbean coast respected by the state of Honduras.
[23:21] Speaker 1: They filed so many different legal motions and actions in Honduras.
[23:26] Speaker 1: They've taken the struggle internationally to international courts like the
[23:30] Speaker 1: Inter-American Court of Human Rights. To date, they have received
[23:33] Speaker 1: four sentences by that court that demand that the state
[23:37] Speaker 1: of Honduras respect the Inter-American Court sentences and their ancestral
[23:42] Speaker 1: land rights. And they've simply been ignored. And so recently,
[23:48] Speaker 1: at the beginning of July, there was attack against another
[23:52] Speaker 1: Garifuna community in the beautiful area called Telabey, specifically in
[23:57] Speaker 1: the community of San Juan. And the state went in,
[24:01] Speaker 1: hundreds of police officers to try to evict the Garifuna
[24:06] Speaker 1: from this land that they were recovering, as in they
[24:09] Speaker 1: decided that they were no longer going to tolerate the
[24:13] Speaker 1: that a wealthy businessman was taking this piece of land
[24:18] Speaker 1: right in front of the beach and they were going
[24:20] Speaker 1: to go and recover it because it's their ancestral title.
[24:23] Speaker 1: The Inter-American Court recognizes their right to that land. And
[24:27] Speaker 1: so they've decided to go in and recover it. In response,
[24:30] Speaker 1: the state sent hundreds of police to evict them and
[24:33] Speaker 1: they criminalized these five Garifuna leaders from the same community.
[24:38] Speaker 1: So this is sort of the direct, the encampment is
[24:42] Speaker 1: the direct response to that action, but it's part of
[24:45] Speaker 1: a long standing pattern over decades of the lack of
[24:48] Speaker 1: respect for ancestral land rights and the targeting of Garifuna
[24:51] Speaker 1: leaders that are just simply trying to protect their cultural
[24:55] Speaker 1: integrity and their survival along the coast of Honduras. So
[24:59] Speaker 1: the encampment, what they did, Ofrene brought several hundreds of
[25:04] Speaker 1: people from Garifuna communities to set up camp, basically, in
[25:08] Speaker 1: front of the Supreme Court in Tegucigalpa in this small
[25:11] Speaker 1: green space. They are now camped out there. There's tents
[25:15] Speaker 1: all over the area. They're cooking, collectively cooking for everybody
[25:19] Speaker 1: that's there. They're living there. as in they don't leave
[25:23] Speaker 1: that area. They're emitting communiques in response to what's going on,
[25:28] Speaker 1: how they're being targeted, how the state continues to ignore
[25:31] Speaker 1: them or is not fulfilling their demands. And so that
[25:34] Speaker 1: is the purpose of this encampment. And it's sort of
[25:37] Speaker 1: seen as an escalation by Ofrene to say, listen, we've
[25:40] Speaker 1: done everything. We've followed the national laws. We've followed international laws.
[25:44] Speaker 1: We have no other choice now. We are going to
[25:47] Speaker 1: stay and live here in front of the Supreme Court
[25:49] Speaker 1: until we're heard by the state of Honduras.
[25:52] Speaker 5: Can we talk a little bit about this case, which
[25:54] Speaker 5: has sort of triggered, I guess, the encampment? Tell me
[25:57] Speaker 5: a little bit about the family or the businessmen involved
[25:59] Speaker 5: and also the charges against the five Garifuna leaders. They've
[26:04] Speaker 5: been charged with usurpación, which I think the best English
[26:07] Speaker 5: translation I've come up with is aggravated trespass. So people
[26:11] Speaker 5: being accused of trespassing on their own land, which is
[26:15] Speaker 5: happening all over Honduras. So just tell us a bit
[26:17] Speaker 5: more about this businessman and his family.
[26:21] Speaker 2: Sure.
[26:21] Speaker 1: So this plot of land that is part of this
[26:24] Speaker 1: conflict is right on the beautiful Caribbean beach. I mean,
[26:29] Speaker 1: it's an absolutely gorgeous piece of land. It's part of
[26:33] Speaker 1: their ancestral title. And so this businessman, like businessmen from
[26:39] Speaker 1: the U.S., from Canada, from Europe, Mexico, they are just
[26:44] Speaker 1: so taken back by the beauty of Honduran's Caribbean coast
[26:48] Speaker 1: that this wealthy family that is part of the wealthy oligarchs,
[26:52] Speaker 1: as Hondurans call them, or the wealthy elite in Honduras,
[26:56] Speaker 1: named the Rosenthal family have a tourist company called Promotour.
[27:01] Speaker 1: And this family is basically claiming that they own this
[27:06] Speaker 1: piece of land on very false premises that many years
[27:09] Speaker 1: ago they purchased the land from someone that was renting
[27:13] Speaker 1: the land. And so there's very clear manipulation of the
[27:17] Speaker 1: law going on here where they're basically ignoring land titles
[27:23] Speaker 1: to the convenience of this wealthy businessman or this wealthy
[27:26] Speaker 1: business family, the Rosenthal family. And I think what's interesting
[27:29] Speaker 1: about the Rosenthal family is that like the former President
[27:33] Speaker 1: Juan Orlando Hernandez, who was involved in drug trafficking, the
[27:36] Speaker 1: Rosenthal family as well was involved in drug trafficking. And
[27:39] Speaker 1: in fact, three members of their family faced very serious
[27:43] Speaker 1: accusations and charges by the New York Southern District Court
[27:47] Speaker 1: of New York on drug-related charges, mostly money laundering charges,
[27:52] Speaker 1: as in that they owned one of the largest banks
[27:57] Speaker 1: in Honduras, Grupo Continental or Continental Bank. And they were
[28:02] Speaker 1: using that bank to launder drug money for a specific
[28:06] Speaker 1: cartel named Los Cachiros that operated all along the Caribbean
[28:10] Speaker 1: coast of Honduras. So I think what's important to remember
[28:12] Speaker 1: about this case is that the state of Honduras has
[28:15] Speaker 1: consistently over many years worked alongside and defended the interests
[28:21] Speaker 1: of drug traffickers like the Rosenthal family and used the
[28:25] Speaker 1: state in order to promote the interests of these very problematic,
[28:30] Speaker 1: wealthy elite that are deeply involved in drug trafficking. And
[28:33] Speaker 1: that's sort of happening all along the coast of Honduras.
[28:35] Speaker 1: It's not specific to just Tela Bay, where this one
[28:38] Speaker 1: particular conflict is going on, where five Garifuna have been criminalized,
[28:43] Speaker 1: but it's happening in many different hotel, resort, golf course,
[28:47] Speaker 1: cruise ship terminal projects that are basically promoted both in
[28:51] Speaker 1: the Bay Islands, which is off the north coast of Honduras,
[28:54] Speaker 1: and then also across the Caribbean coast on mainland Honduras.
[28:59] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[29:00] Speaker 5: And the Rosenthal family also were like a lot of
[29:03] Speaker 5: the elites in Honduras, you know, have their tentacles everywhere.
[29:06] Speaker 4: Right.
[29:07] Speaker 5: Banking, land, other natural resources and the media as well.
[29:12] Speaker 2: Right.
[29:13] Speaker 5: I see the parallel then there with what's happening in
[29:15] Speaker 5: the US.
[29:16] Speaker 1: Right.
[29:16] Speaker 3: Just this concentration of power.
[29:18] Speaker 5: And the reason I mentioned that is that we're seeing
[29:22] Speaker 5: Garifuna leaders being criminalized.
[29:25] Speaker 3: In the mainstream media as well.
[29:27] Speaker 5: So, you know, their defense of their land, their ancestral
[29:30] Speaker 5: rights are being equated to being sort of like organized
[29:34] Speaker 5: crime almost, you know.
[29:35] Speaker 3: Can you talk a little bit about that?
[29:37] Speaker 2: Sure.
[29:38] Speaker 1: And I think that that intention has the attempt to
[29:41] Speaker 1: link the Garifuna to organized crime, also, you know, to
[29:45] Speaker 1: terrorism itself. is something that is very important right now,
[29:50] Speaker 1: both in the regional context, given U.S. President Donald Trump's
[29:54] Speaker 1: alleged or allegations that they're attacking narco-terrorism across the region
[29:59] Speaker 1: and using that justification to invade countries, to bomb boats,
[30:04] Speaker 1: to carry out joint operations in multiple parts of Latin America.
[30:08] Speaker 1: But in Honduras, as a result of that same regional politics,
[30:12] Speaker 1: this attack on alleged narco-terrorism, the Honduran government has been
[30:17] Speaker 1: modifying laws since January of this year to basically redefine
[30:22] Speaker 1: what being associated with terrorism means. And so Ofrene, along
[30:26] Speaker 1: with the social movement, has been raising alarm to the
[30:29] Speaker 1: fact that now the government of Honduras has given itself
[30:32] Speaker 1: the ability to declare any group a terrorist organization. And
[30:36] Speaker 1: so there's a lot of concern that these mainstream media attempts,
[30:40] Speaker 1: which are driven by racism, by ignorance, is this attempt
[30:44] Speaker 1: to link Ofrene, the Afro-Indigenous people that are defending their
[30:48] Speaker 1: land rights and their cultural integrity, to terrorist organizations, to narco-terrorism,
[30:54] Speaker 1: which I think has long been part of the war
[30:57] Speaker 1: on drugs and long been part of this efforts to
[31:00] Speaker 1: criminalize social movements across Latin America.
[31:05] Speaker 5: You mentioned that the Garifuna people have had four favorable
[31:10] Speaker 5: sentences from the Inter-American Court of Human Rights. And one
[31:13] Speaker 5: of those relates to the Cayo Cochinos archipelago. And I
[31:18] Speaker 5: wanted to talk a little bit about the reality show
[31:20] Speaker 5: Survivor because the Spanish language version has for years now
[31:25] Speaker 5: been filmed on one of the islands. What did the
[31:29] Speaker 5: court say about that and what's happening there right now?
[31:34] Speaker 2: Sure.
[31:34] Speaker 1: So, I mean, I think it's really important to set
[31:36] Speaker 1: the scene. Cayus Cochinos is this absolutely breathtaking place. It's
[31:41] Speaker 1: right about 30 kilometers off the main coast of Honduras,
[31:44] Speaker 1: right in the Caribbean. It's actually a whole bunch of
[31:47] Speaker 1: little islands and keys all together. And it's surrounded by
[31:50] Speaker 1: beautiful turquoise waters that are just surrounded by this coral reef.
[31:55] Speaker 1: And it's actually been declared a World Cultural Heritage Site
[31:58] Speaker 1: by UNESCO as And so it's no wonder that, you know,
[32:03] Speaker 1: television shows like Survivor, who have spent 20 years or
[32:06] Speaker 1: something filming this reality show in this area, is so
[32:11] Speaker 1: interested in this specific region. But also it's a region
[32:15] Speaker 1: that is like needs to be protected. And so the
[32:19] Speaker 1: state of Honduras has tried multiple times to evict and
[32:22] Speaker 1: get rid of the Garifuna communities, some of which have
[32:25] Speaker 1: long lived on these small little keys in these islands.
[32:28] Speaker 1: They've tried to evict them from the area using, you know,
[32:31] Speaker 1: ecological protection, natural reserve laws to limit their ability to
[32:36] Speaker 1: have both land rights, but also to protect their own
[32:38] Speaker 1: habitat and to fish in the area as well. And
[32:42] Speaker 1: so since Survivor started filming recently, I believe they started
[32:46] Speaker 1: in August or July, which they have every year, basically
[32:50] Speaker 1: in coordination with the wealthy elite, international and national organizations.
[32:55] Speaker 1: that basically say that they are protecting the Cayos Cochinos region,
[33:01] Speaker 1: they started filming. And because of this new Inter-American Court
[33:06] Speaker 1: sentence that was basically handed down by the court in
[33:10] Speaker 1: March of this year, saying that the state of Honduras
[33:14] Speaker 1: must consult the Garifuna people that live on Cayos Cochinos,
[33:18] Speaker 1: in relation to their collective property rights and their participation
[33:22] Speaker 1: in the administration of the protected area, and also before
[33:27] Speaker 1: any television shows or tourist developments are basically carried out
[33:31] Speaker 1: in this region. And so seeing that survivors, once again,
[33:35] Speaker 1: being filmed in one of these islands and keys, Ofrene
[33:39] Speaker 1: and the Garifuna communities that are affected have gone to
[33:42] Speaker 1: set up another encampment to say, no, no, no, we
[33:44] Speaker 1: were not consulted Survivor, they bring in a lot of
[33:48] Speaker 1: people into this area. They disrupt turtles that are in
[33:52] Speaker 1: the region. Ofrene has said, we've been the ones that
[33:55] Speaker 1: have been protecting this area for so long, and we
[33:59] Speaker 1: were not consulted for this reality show to be filmed
[34:03] Speaker 1: in this area. And so that's sort of the purpose
[34:06] Speaker 1: of this particular encampment. In fact, Ofrene has three active
[34:10] Speaker 1: encampments around the country. one in Tegucigalpa in front of
[34:13] Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, one where survivors being filmed in Cayos Cochinos,
[34:17] Speaker 1: and another one in San Juan Tela, areas where they're
[34:20] Speaker 1: actively resisting their dispossession by tourist interests, by drug trafficking interests,
[34:28] Speaker 1: and also by African palm, which is another major threat
[34:31] Speaker 1: to their survival as well.
[34:33] Speaker 5: Miriam Miranda, the founder of Alphanay, has many times said
[34:39] Speaker 5: to me that Honduras is a laboratory. It's a laboratory
[34:42] Speaker 5: for extreme capitalism, for the neoliberal project. What do you
[34:46] Speaker 5: think she means by that?
[34:47] Speaker 1: I feel like Honduras is often a forgotten country. And
[34:52] Speaker 1: because it receives such little attention, it's sort of that
[34:55] Speaker 1: facilitates this, it being used as a laboratory for for
[34:59] Speaker 1: many extreme neoliberal policies. So widespread dispossession by a whole
[35:05] Speaker 1: range of private interests by international or transnational capital that
[35:11] Speaker 1: work alongside the local wealthy elite in a whole range
[35:15] Speaker 1: of industries, agro-industrial businesses, energy, whether that's solar, whether that's hydroelectric, mining,
[35:24] Speaker 1: just a whole range of extractive projects. And I think
[35:28] Speaker 1: what it also is a laboratory for is the conflation
[35:32] Speaker 1: of neoliberal policies with organized crime, because Honduras has long
[35:37] Speaker 1: been a narco state. We're seeing a resurrection of the
[35:40] Speaker 1: narco state model where transnational capital works alongside individuals that
[35:45] Speaker 1: are proven or there's very widespread evidence that they're involved
[35:49] Speaker 1: in drug trafficking or illicit interests. And so it's a
[35:52] Speaker 1: laboratory in that sense, but it's also a laboratory for
[35:56] Speaker 1: how the state can repress the rising social movement that
[36:01] Speaker 1: refuses to give up, that constantly stands up against these
[36:04] Speaker 1: interests and is denouncing, is, you know, putting together encampments
[36:10] Speaker 1: that have a whole range of tactics to stop this
[36:13] Speaker 1: sort of encroachment of this model of And so it's
[36:17] Speaker 1: it's true. And I mean, it's never stopped. Stop being
[36:19] Speaker 1: a laboratory over many, many years. And we're seeing it again,
[36:24] Speaker 1: like basically this laboratory being resurrected once again with this
[36:30] Speaker 1: new government.
[36:32] Speaker 5: And just thinking about the Trump administration, you know, and
[36:36] Speaker 5: I don't want to sit here and think that everything
[36:38] Speaker 5: was great before Trump because it wasn't and not with
[36:41] Speaker 5: the Democrats and not with other, you know, with previous presidents.
[36:44] Speaker 3: Republican administrations. But just thinking about right now.
[36:47] Speaker 5: When you see the very clear move towards trying to
[36:51] Speaker 5: dismantle international justice and really this, you know, project of
[36:55] Speaker 5: impunity in which wealth and power is increasingly concentrated, you know,
[36:59] Speaker 5: among a very few. What are the big fears about
[37:03] Speaker 5: this sort of Trump 2.0 project for the defenders in
[37:08] Speaker 5: Honduras and civil society more broadly?
[37:11] Speaker 1: I think probably the biggest fear is the stamp of
[37:13] Speaker 1: approval that the current administration is basically consistently receiving from
[37:19] Speaker 1: the Trump administration because it's a Trump-imposed government. You know,
[37:23] Speaker 1: the Juan Orlando Dandis was released from prison. He basically
[37:27] Speaker 1: evaded a 45-year prison sentence in the U.S. for being
[37:32] Speaker 1: involved in transporting over 400 tons of cocaine into the
[37:37] Speaker 1: United States. And he was released and he's back in
[37:39] Speaker 1: the country. And then you have his political party back
[37:42] Speaker 1: in power. And the evidence is just like overwhelming of
[37:46] Speaker 1: their corruption, of their involvement in drug trafficking, of the
[37:50] Speaker 1: repression that they've used against the Honduran population with support
[37:55] Speaker 1: from the U.S. government. And so I think what is
[37:58] Speaker 1: the most worrying is just how this whole security model,
[38:01] Speaker 1: which is fundamentally about corruption and guaranteeing impunity, what that
[38:07] Speaker 1: will mean for vulnerable populations or populations that are in
[38:10] Speaker 1: resistance to the transnational interests that are basically and ultimately
[38:15] Speaker 1: being promoted by the U.S.
[38:16] Speaker 2: Government.
[38:17] Speaker 1: And so this has already led to a bunch of
[38:20] Speaker 1: responses and changes within this administration since January. I mentioned
[38:25] Speaker 1: the agro-industrial law, which promotes private interests and over public
[38:31] Speaker 1: interest in land. So it basically pushes aside the land
[38:35] Speaker 1: rights of Afro-Indigenous individuals or communities and the small farmer
[38:40] Speaker 1: communities that have long, like you said, been in resistance
[38:43] Speaker 1: trying to reclaim their land. It also means that they're
[38:47] Speaker 1: changing the definition of what being a terrorist is. They're
[38:51] Speaker 1: returning with the mano dura or the hard fist, trying
[38:55] Speaker 1: to allegedly crack down on crime, when ultimately that will
[39:00] Speaker 1: mean basically sending in police and military to territories where
[39:05] Speaker 1: individuals and communities are defending their land rights or protecting
[39:09] Speaker 1: their environment from large scale development projects. And so I
[39:13] Speaker 1: think that's the biggest fear. And I think for me,
[39:16] Speaker 1: as somebody that does solidarity work and really focuses on
[39:20] Speaker 1: bringing in pressure from internationally is that people are so
[39:25] Speaker 1: overwhelmed by how bad the state of the world is
[39:28] Speaker 1: and how corrupt and how just the deterioration of sort
[39:33] Speaker 1: of any attempts to promote or give the idea that
[39:38] Speaker 1: there's a value in the rule of law. It's very
[39:41] Speaker 1: difficult to draw attention to what's going on in a
[39:44] Speaker 1: small little place like Honduras because people are just so
[39:46] Speaker 1: overwhelmed with the state of the world. And so that
[39:49] Speaker 1: really puts already vulnerable populations in an even more vulnerable position.
[39:54] Speaker 1: And it's very hard to move people. to care about
[39:57] Speaker 1: these issues because of how low the bar is being
[40:01] Speaker 1: lowered constantly by this global superpower that has no respect
[40:06] Speaker 1: for the rule of law, multilateralism, you know, and social
[40:11] Speaker 1: justice or justice in general.
[40:13] Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think this is a challenge that we
[40:15] Speaker 5: as journalists face too, right? It's like trying to tell
[40:18] Speaker 5: stories and explain.
[40:19] Speaker 3: To people why.
[40:22] Speaker 5: The violations of people's rights in this archipelago in the
[40:26] Speaker 5: Caribbean off the coast of Honduras matters. White matters for
[40:29] Speaker 5: all of us, right? And, you know, there is obviously
[40:32] Speaker 5: the solidarity and the empathy and the human rights part
[40:36] Speaker 5: of it, but also the protection of you know, ecosystems
[40:40] Speaker 5: and our oceans and land, you know, is hugely important
[40:45] Speaker 5: to everyone, like globally, right?
[40:47] Speaker 3: We're all interconnected.
[40:49] Speaker 5: And so, you know, violations of human rights, but also
[40:52] Speaker 5: environmental rights and sort of, you know, ecocide and all
[40:55] Speaker 5: these things are so deeply connected.
[40:57] Speaker 3: And I think the challenge for us, and we're really sort.
[40:59] Speaker 5: Of thinking about this all the time, At Drilled, you know,
[41:02] Speaker 5: is that how do we, you know, how do we
[41:04] Speaker 5: explain to people why it matters? How a, you know,
[41:08] Speaker 5: resistance by one community in a tiny place you've maybe
[41:11] Speaker 5: never heard of, you know, is connected to your life, right?
[41:15] Speaker 5: To sort of the air that you breathe, to your
[41:17] Speaker 5: energy prices, to global heating, to the extreme weather that
[41:21] Speaker 5: we're seeing all over the planet, you know, and I
[41:23] Speaker 5: think that's the challenge that we're, you know, that we're
[41:25] Speaker 5: definitely in right now.
[41:26] Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I wanted to add as well to that.
[41:29] Speaker 1: I mean, the climate, it just like completely connects us all.
[41:32] Speaker 1: There's just no borders with climate, the climate crisis. And
[41:37] Speaker 1: protecting those areas like Cayos Cochinos, like the Caribbean coast
[41:41] Speaker 1: of Honduras or anywhere else in the world is all
[41:43] Speaker 1: part of that broader struggle to protect the climate. But also,
[41:49] Speaker 1: I think one of the things for me that is
[41:50] Speaker 1: the biggest connection for folks internationally to Honduras is that
[41:54] Speaker 1: generally a lot of people will visit Honduras and they'll
[41:59] Speaker 1: buy property in Honduras and not realizing that they're actually
[42:01] Speaker 1: getting involved in this like gigantic political corrupt mess. And
[42:08] Speaker 1: so you have lots of Canadians and U.S.ers and Mexicans
[42:11] Speaker 1: and Europeans that purchase land or they see this cheap
[42:15] Speaker 1: land on this beautiful Caribbean coast. And they're like, oh,
[42:19] Speaker 1: let's go invest there. Let's go on a cruise ship
[42:21] Speaker 1: there or a cruise ship tour there. I've been there
[42:26] Speaker 1: because like, oh, my friend has property there. And so
[42:30] Speaker 1: they don't realize that they're getting involved in these like
[42:32] Speaker 1: very difficult land conflicts and they end up losing their investments.
[42:37] Speaker 1: Or they lose their lands. And so that's something that
[42:39] Speaker 1: I constantly am hearing about where people are saying, oh,
[42:42] Speaker 1: we didn't know. We didn't know that this was going on.
[42:44] Speaker 1: And it's just like, you know, that's why you investigate
[42:48] Speaker 1: before you invest somewhere. You're going to lose your investment.
[42:51] Speaker 1: And so there's so many connections. Yeah.
[42:54] Speaker 3: If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
[42:57] Speaker 2: Yes.
[42:57] Speaker 3: I think that's a good lesson. I just wanted to
[43:00] Speaker 3: finish with this, Karen. So we met for the first
[43:04] Speaker 3: time at the end of 2013.
[43:05] Speaker 5: It was election day, the election where Juan Orlando Hernandez...
[43:09] Speaker 5: first came to power. And we met, I remember it
[43:12] Speaker 5: really clearly, you had dengue fever, you didn't know, but
[43:16] Speaker 5: you were sick.
[43:17] Speaker 3: And that was the first time I met Berta Cáceres.
[43:19] Speaker 5: And I remember she was addressing a group of election observers,
[43:23] Speaker 5: international election observers and warning them, you know, about the
[43:27] Speaker 5: dire situation that communities, social leaders are were facing in
[43:34] Speaker 5: Honduras and really urging them not to look away. Berta
[43:37] Speaker 5: was then murdered in 2016. It caused an international uproar.
[43:42] Speaker 5: And I wonder, 10 years after her assassination, I mean,
[43:47] Speaker 5: a lot's happened, a lot's changed in the world. The
[43:49] Speaker 5: National Party are back in power. Juan Orlando Hernandez was
[43:52] Speaker 5: in power and Berta got murdered, including a four-year term
[43:57] Speaker 5: for the progressive government in between.
[44:00] Speaker 3: How would you say the situation.
[44:02] Speaker 5: For environmental and land rights defenders has changed if at
[44:07] Speaker 5: all in that period?
[44:10] Speaker 1: Well, I think you mentioned that there was a progressive
[44:15] Speaker 1: government in power for four years prior to this current
[44:18] Speaker 1: government took power in January in Honduras and like progressive
[44:21] Speaker 1: governments all across Latin America. They face extreme difficulties in
[44:25] Speaker 1: being able to change the structural issues that affect so
[44:29] Speaker 1: many Latin American countries. And that's not really excusing them
[44:33] Speaker 1: because they make very significant mistakes. They repeat the same
[44:37] Speaker 1: problematic patterns that they themselves make. denounced before they get
[44:40] Speaker 1: to power. But I think for a while in Honduras,
[44:45] Speaker 1: for the four years that there was a progressive government,
[44:47] Speaker 1: I think spaces were a little bit more open to
[44:49] Speaker 1: dialogue with the state and for communities to be able
[44:53] Speaker 1: to achieve some of their goals and of their demands
[44:57] Speaker 1: that they've had for many years. So I do think
[45:00] Speaker 1: that to a certain degree, political power can be very
[45:03] Speaker 1: useful for creating spaces for critical voices, for voices that
[45:08] Speaker 1: are seeking to be included in the political process. But again,
[45:12] Speaker 1: I think that since January, with this new sort of
[45:15] Speaker 1: far right or conservative right government that has taken power
[45:19] Speaker 1: imposed by Donald Trump, I think we're going back to
[45:22] Speaker 1: seeing that Honduras is once again a dangerous place to
[45:26] Speaker 1: be an environmentalist, to be a land defender. And it's
[45:30] Speaker 1: very concerning. And so I think, you know, things change.
[45:34] Speaker 1: And they could change again for the better. But again,
[45:38] Speaker 1: I think it's a very difficult situation, very similar to
[45:42] Speaker 1: what Berta was cautioning people and raising the alarm about
[45:47] Speaker 1: three years before she was murdered.
[45:50] Speaker 5: Thank you very much, Karen Spring, co-coordinator of the Honduras
[45:53] Speaker 5: Solidarity Network.
[45:55] Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Nina.
[45:56] Speaker 5: Thanks for listening to The Spill. We'll be back in
[45:58] Speaker 5: your feeds next Friday.
[46:03] Speaker 2: Mina Lakhani literally wrote the book about Berta Caceres. You
[46:07] Speaker 2: can find a link to her book, Who Killed Berta Caceres? Dams,
[46:11] Speaker 2: Death Squads, and an Indigenous Defender's Battle for the Planet
[46:16] Speaker 2: in the show notes. The Spill is a weekly newscast
[46:21] Speaker 2: brought to you by the team at Drilled. This week's
[46:24] Speaker 2: episode was edited by Aline Brown and produced by Martin Zaltz-Ostwick.
[46:28] Speaker 2: Our music is Bird in the Hand by Four Known.
[46:32] Speaker 2: Artwork by Matthew Fleming. Legal by James Wheaton of the
[46:36] Speaker 2: First Amendment Project. You can find a lot of the
[46:39] Speaker 2: reporting that we referenced in this episode on our website
[46:42] Speaker 2: at Drilled.media. And you can also find us on various
[46:46] Speaker 2: social media platforms with the handle at Drilled Media. That
[46:50] Speaker 2: includes YouTube, where you can find a video version of
[46:54] Speaker 2: this episode. Check that out, and we'll see you next week.
[47:00] Speaker 1: Thank you.

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