# 312 | Thomas Levenson on the Mutual History of Humans and Germs

An episode of [Sean Carroll's Mindscape: Science, Society, Philosophy, Culture, Arts, and Ideas](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1406534739), 21 Apr 2025, 1 h 32 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.libsyn.com/secure/1d1ac211-8392-45fe-82db-99fa7f77076e/tom20levenson.mp3?dest-id=5264190

The germ theory of disease is a crowning achievement of science, up there with modern physics, continental drift, and evolution via natural selection. (Even if there will always be cranky skeptics.) But the road to widespread acceptance isn't always an easy one. Why did it take so long between Anton van Leeuwenhoek seeing "animalcules" in a microscope (1670s) to Louis Pasteur's work on pasteurization and vaccination (1860's)? Thomas Levenson is the author of a new book exploring this fascinating history: So Very Small: How Humans Discovered the Microcosmos, Defeated Germs--and May Still Lose the War Against Infectious Disease. Blog post with transcript: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2025/04/21/episode-312-thomas-levenson-on-the-mutual-history-of-humans-and-germs/ Support Mindscape on Patreon. Thomas Levenson received a B.A. in East Asian Studies from Harvard University. He is currently Professor of Science Writing and director of the graduate program in science writing at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. He is the author of numerous books and has written and produced a number of science documentaries for television. • Web site • MIT web page • Wikipedia • Amazon author page • Bluesky

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.