# Modern Sales - B2B Selling Podcast

A podcast by Liston Witherill. Selling complicated products and services is a relatively new thing, but most sales advice isn’t up to the job. On Modern Sales, you'll get actionable advice based on the psychology, behavioral economics, and neuroscience of how people buy. Hosted by Liston Witherill, Head of Growth at Gold Front, a creative agency working with high growth startups. Sign up for the newsletter to get the top 10 episodes emailed to you, and stay up to date on Liston's writing, podcast, and sales advice.

Feed: https://rss.art19.com/modern-sales-b2b-sales-podcast

## Latest episodes

- [148 - Managing Client Expectations: A Guide For Agencies](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/785b618a6cc0) (2021-03-24, 17 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/d0ffda68-fac0-41f8-955f-ff9e82d51118.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [147 - Theory of Constraints: What's Hindering Your Agency's Growth?](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/9f1a44314dce) (2021-03-17, 12 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/ba8f209c-ed93-4fb2-90d6-811a5a88613f.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [146 - A Unified Theory of Business Development Strategy (2021)](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/b1adb0ed21d9) (2021-03-10, 22 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/5766888e-80b0-47bb-a671-1a2ee4b619ed.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [145 - Value-Based Pricing: Is It Right For You?](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/165d4c7f9c30) (2021-03-03, 17 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/e61b2932-6f7d-4ee7-8289-5fe140f1ee86.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [144 - \[Interview\] Low Volume, High Conversion Cold Email with Brad Smith](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/1e7e6cbc50e5) (2021-02-24, 40 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/1cf6d2dd-d8df-4de3-96fa-d554aa719c0b.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [143 - \[Interview\] Changing Your Perspective on Sales with Mike Simmons of Catalyst Sale](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/9f1c6b5f7a00) (2021-02-17, 28 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/9d1f0ac6-33f2-4c06-8f0b-9fa2512f3228.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [142 - \[Interview\] The Future of Field Sales with Steve Benson](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/feb453c0b258) (2021-02-10, 32 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/38a59517-8b3c-4e64-9b87-cc55bee5254a.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [141 - \[Interview\] Virtual Selling Research with Dave Shaby of RAIN Group](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/7e60a3aca5e0) (2021-02-03, 34 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/e16d512a-3983-48bf-9455-85668aba2bc0.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [140 - \[Interview\] Selling With Video Emails Is Just Humane with Ethan Beute](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/7f4e58e1ce4c) (2021-01-28, 31 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/ce2020e0-aecf-4e25-8a6f-17387fa838ab.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [139 - \[Interview\] Cold Prospecting Emails That Actually Work with Jack Reamer](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/dbe362f9d4ab) (2020-09-16, 36 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/6b465854-fa9a-4553-937a-0528d4ba2033.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [138 - \[Interview\] Virtual Selling with Jeb Blount](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/6e1610bdb540) (2020-09-09, 30 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/c73d7a09-1971-400b-9146-84c5f4acec43.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [137 - \[Interview\] Negotiation Plan Strategy with Jeb Blount](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/e629f5a045a9) (2020-09-02, 28 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/39e14d6c-8369-4791-b71a-64b55f08eeb8.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [136 - \[Interview\] The Formula For Cold Email Outreach with Kevin Dorsey](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/4a9d65f5fdc5) (2020-07-30, 38 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/fb0fd079-f692-4b1b-918b-76c790842459.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [135 - \[Interview\] What Joke Writing Can Teach You About Sales](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/a584c663b5fb) (2020-07-16, 30 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/d5eb7c0b-8a37-4fd7-b2cd-f13b37551b24.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [134 - \[Interview\] Go For No With Andrea Waltz](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/518f5aedbac3) (2020-07-01, 28 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/d156be18-7afd-445a-8803-9e5b27d6c6f2.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [133 - \[Interview\] The Truth About Emotional Sales and Empathy](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/4f2723b39c6a) (2020-06-25, 34 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/527a0385-b098-49df-88c0-40590032661b.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [132 - \[Interview\] 8 Steps to Winning Sales Presentations with Brian Burkhart](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/74a8d43cca5f) (2020-06-18, 42 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/9c57dad9-ac08-4fba-a843-a5ee044e1b3e.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [131 - \[Interview\] Why Marketing Is Critical to Outbound Sales](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/83117c1e19d5) (2020-06-11, 34 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/9d60f26b-88ce-404a-9f89-f442f3646000.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [130 - \[Interview\] Radical Transparency In Negotiation with Todd Caponi](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/e9011a9c680f) (2020-06-04, 39 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/8eb96e4d-e8be-43d8-9b21-65758e5f2e82.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [129 - \[Interview\] Value Planning For Better Sales Calls with Andy Paul](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/420f89e2b5ee) (2020-05-22, 34 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/6bac653b-d452-4628-91e4-859512b6dd12.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [128 - \[Interview\] How to Sell During the Crisis with Jake Dunlap of Skaled Consulting](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/8cc62569136a) (2020-05-14, 35 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/84c91435-cd0e-4218-a34b-9cf9ff699de8.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [127 - \[Interview\] A Smarter Approach to Sales Hiring with Sales Recruiter Amy Volas](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/c6f9e6660917) (2020-05-07, 37 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/42e5868a-dc66-454a-b949-f2cf363c12f2.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [126 - How to build authority in your market](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/504a582d63ea) (2020-05-05, 26 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/7604a018-0eb1-4a75-a0eb-cf1ff8086bb4.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [125 - \[Interview\] How to Set Next Steps at Every Meeting with Mark Fershteyn of Recapped](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/d08d1ad3444b) (2020-04-30, 30 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/db4445ff-f001-44e1-9f1e-dd2e80545b74.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [124 - Storytelling In Sales to Make Your Pitch Stick](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/fd1a8ad70cb8) (2020-04-28, 22 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/f230d969-3cb2-43ff-a92e-d53cf84cea74.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [123 - \[Interview\] How Professional Services Buyers Buy with Hinge Marketing's Lee Frederiksen](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/a01aaf83a6e5) (2020-04-23, 37 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/5dda45cc-93b1-470a-927d-06e255d395b7.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [122 - Sales Presentations: How to Make Them More Effective Based On How People Learn](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/a2d1f7703524) (2020-04-21, 25 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/85f1515f-9e24-4612-8d98-78045801e16c.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [121 - \[Interview\] The Truth About Motivation with Justin Welsh](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/e257afce6f50) (2020-04-16, 39 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/d2ee01c5-edd5-4fce-a53d-b585f4498e03.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [120 - Sales Motivation Principles That Actually Work](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/4c92d2945c3a) (2020-04-14, 23 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/15c28942-c384-40ce-9503-27af1bdfb3ed.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [119 - \[Interview\] Outbound Prospecting In a Crisis with Jason Bay of Blissful Prospecting](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/d14825e84878) (2020-04-09, 25 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/e9ec24c7-843f-416a-8a9d-1d66073acc3f.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [118 - Remote Selling: The Sales Process for Selling Remotely](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/5e8d606e4815) (2020-04-07, 20 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/15ade99e-802b-4cb8-b242-af8e93688968.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [117 - Remote Selling: Video Selling and Building Trust Online](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/2cf488bf7b58) (2020-04-01, 26 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/00140b3a-efea-4753-84cb-712ddb81330a.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [116 - Remote Selling: Making the Fast Transition From In-Person to Online Selling](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/280a90af3110) (2020-03-26, 23 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/ae2b89f7-01d0-442a-aeb2-dc1010f27b41.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [(Rebroadcast) 081 - Sales Training, Part 4: Value Based Selling Done Right](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/d2821c58e732) (2020-03-20, 26 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/4bbe75a0-d32d-439b-b611-cab5fd673647.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [(Rebroadcast) 079 - Sales Training, Part 2: Finding the Pain](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/039bbc9bd937) (2020-03-11, 25 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/b2b861ed-2db1-40ef-9292-5afbaa59fc15.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [115 - Sales AI: Tools You Can Use It Right Now](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/1010f641f0af) (2020-03-04, 30 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/f39e4f04-2145-4e49-bf24-2b74a2209c2e.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [114 - Sales AI: Will AI tools take over sales jobs?](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/5266f35c0970) (2020-02-26, 23 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/be586ee7-eb96-4c78-a94e-3d338074c5f5.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [113 - Sales AI: Is the revolution coming?](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/d2be7bc00b0e) (2020-02-20, 20 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/137c0c51-dd66-415b-b5b7-30d16e34b373.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [112 - Pain Points: Do buyers respond more to pain or gain?](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/66cd3f8df0f7) (2020-02-12, 22 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/b25e38e1-101e-4da0-95cd-80d9a1b3d503.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [111 - Personality Test: Can They Help You Sell?](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/6e3d30bb0567) (2020-02-04, 23 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/a64411c6-4638-4688-8098-ab5277ba0581.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [110 - Using Cold Email Email to Get Podcast Advertisers](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/31bdb62fbffc) (2020-01-29, 34 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/d6c76979-61f6-4f05-870b-5dd8bd95fac3.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [109 - Selling Services v. Products: What's the Difference?](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/540d20e96c4c) (2020-01-21, 23 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/abfef87b-d592-4dc3-b88c-4c09aae91f14.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [108 - \[Interview\] Buyer Isights: How Trust Is Built with Deep Mahajan](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/a077dad2ecf8) (2020-01-15, 32 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/f8485c4a-40d1-4683-bce5-b69c3df7e0e7.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [107 - \[Interview\] Buyer Isights: Finding the Gaps with Bill Ball](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/e23a47b821ac) (2020-01-08, 34 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/00e4a284-46c2-49b3-9a79-e07d953db534.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [106 - \[Interview\] Buyer Isights: How Enterprise Clients Buy with Ariel Yoffie (Former IBM)](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/2664d545a824) (2020-01-01, 37 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/0f1dba00-f09a-4c5c-b26f-54d96f353925.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [105 - Sales Meetings, Part 4: How to End and Follow Up On Meetings](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/73eb2e2970bf) (2019-12-24, 21 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/145a6484-62fa-4ee6-93ed-d0606e4b3bbd.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [104 - Sales Meetings, Part 3: Running a Successful Meeting](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/f899c908b92f) (2019-12-17, 22 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/0cbccc4d-1132-4a65-bbfa-67f50b5215a0.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [103 - Sales Meetings, Part 2: How to Plan For a Great Meeting](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/8d364d999430) (2019-12-11, 25 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/faf4000e-4976-41bc-a3f3-7d1f541de928.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [102 - Sales Meetings, Part 1: Why Bad Meetings Are Killing Your Numbers](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/f77cf9185998) (2019-12-04, 24 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/32dcb35a-07e1-493e-80cc-d0513eb0ac1a.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b
- [101 - Sellers Become Marketers, Part 6: Automating Like a Marketer](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1405330367/a4ffaaf3f8eb) (2019-11-27, 27 min): audio https://pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/38769846-72cb-4ec5-8619-ad6a818cf14f.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIhVJbnZpc2libGVOZXR3b3JrBjoGRVQ%3D--0761ee75eb25694efc17849092f8583c07f6c68b

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