# Part Two: The Websites Behind An International Rapist Network

An episode of [Behind the Bastards](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1373812661), 3 Sep 2026, 1 h 11 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/e5f91208-cc7e-4726-a312-ae280140ad11/4440271c-730d-40ec-a7f0-b4b8016c33b6/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=d64f756d-6d5e-4fae-b24f-ae280140ad36

Robert sketches out the international network of websites where sex criminals ply their trade and advertise, and concludes the story of Dominique Pelicot. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:05] Speaker 1: Welcome back to behind the bastards a podcast where this
[0:09] Speaker 1: week we're talking about some websites that enable horrific sex
[0:14] Speaker 1: crimes and uh the actions of dominique pelico who is
[0:19] Speaker 1: just a just a monster um you you know what
[0:22] Speaker 1: was in the part one of this episode right i
[0:25] Speaker 1: don't probably don't need to remind you i i I mean,
[0:27] Speaker 1: I guess I should, but first I should introduce our guest,
[0:30] Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. Bridget, welcome back. Also, I'm sorry.
[0:34] Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for having me. It's a little bit
[0:36] Speaker 2: of a rough one, but still happy to be here.
[0:38] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a rough one in a
[0:42] Speaker 1: podcast that only does rough ones. Do you have any
[0:44] Speaker 1: pluggables you want to plug up top here?
[0:46] Speaker 2: I do, and I've kind of been thinking about it
[0:48] Speaker 2: as we've been having this conversation. I just published an
[0:52] Speaker 2: audio book with Simon & Schuster called Love it, first prompt,
[0:56] Speaker 2: AI and the Future of Intimacy, where we look at
[0:59] Speaker 2: AI companions and people who use AI for things like romance, emotional.
[1:03] Speaker 3: Support, and sex.
[1:04] Speaker 2: And some of the marketing of the companies that make
[1:08] Speaker 2: and market AI companions, they really lean into this very
[1:12] Speaker 2: toxic attitude that women and girls should just be for
[1:16] Speaker 2: the taking. And that you can, in fact, use AI
[1:19] Speaker 2: to create an AI companion who will do what your
[1:22] Speaker 2: girlfriend slash wife won't do.
[1:24] Speaker 1: And.
[1:25] Speaker 2: I don't know, something about this conversation is just really
[1:27] Speaker 2: making me think about that dynamic, the dynamic that every
[1:32] Speaker 2: woman and girl should just be yours for the taking,
[1:34] Speaker 2: that that should be the world that people live in.
[1:36] Speaker 1: Well, and just the attitude that women are not partners.
[1:41] Speaker 1: They're almost like a vending machine that dispenses sex or
[1:47] Speaker 1: emotional comfort, right? As opposed to a person. Yeah.
[1:50] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[1:52] Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, that's what this story is about too, unfortunately.
[1:55] Speaker 1: There is a real direct tie between the AI girlfriend
[1:59] Speaker 1: stuff that's going on and, yeah, the crimes in this.
[2:05] Speaker 1: And in the same way, like obviously not every– plenty
[2:08] Speaker 1: of people who are seeking AI companionship are not sex
[2:12] Speaker 1: criminals in the same way Dominique Pellico is. I don't
[2:15] Speaker 1: mean to suggest that. But there's like– There's a line
[2:19] Speaker 1: between these things, right? There's similar motivations that are pushing
[2:24] Speaker 1: the people who are into this weird sleep fetish thing
[2:27] Speaker 1: where you definitely don't want these women to know that
[2:30] Speaker 1: you're using them as sexual objects. There's a line between
[2:32] Speaker 1: that and people wanting to take the human out of
[2:35] Speaker 1: having a human partner, I think, probably. Anyway.
[2:40] Speaker 3: I would absolutely agree with you.
[2:41] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[2:42] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[2:48] Speaker 1: So we left off last episode at the start of
[2:50] Speaker 1: the 20-teens when Dominique Pellicot started drugging his wife and
[2:54] Speaker 1: using Coco to recruit dozens of anonymous men, all of
[2:57] Speaker 1: whom lived within 15 to 30 miles of their home,
[3:00] Speaker 1: to sexually assault her in the dead of night. Before
[3:03] Speaker 1: we get further into this story, it's important for you
[3:06] Speaker 1: to know that just as Dominique was not alone in
[3:08] Speaker 1: his crimes, Coco was not the only place where men
[3:11] Speaker 1: were meeting online to do this sort of thing. In fact,
[3:14] Speaker 1: Dominique is a distinct outlier within the community of sleep
[3:17] Speaker 1: content aficionados, both in that he commits, I should say,
[3:21] Speaker 1: non-consensual sleep content aficionados, both in that he commits actual
[3:25] Speaker 1: abuse rather than fantasizing about it, and that his years
[3:28] Speaker 1: of experience as a rapist and murderer meant that by
[3:31] Speaker 1: the time Coco came around, he already had experience drugging women,
[3:34] Speaker 1: assaulting them, and covering his tracks while committing sex crimes.
[3:38] Speaker 1: Most of the guys who get interested in this stuff
[3:41] Speaker 1: start at zero, and they have to find a community
[3:43] Speaker 1: of like-minded abusers before they can offend. And most don't
[3:46] Speaker 1: offend directly. They offend by partaking, purchasing, supporting other people.
[3:51] Speaker 1: Because most guys just don't have the– I don't know.
[3:53] Speaker 1: Gut seems like the wrong word. Most of them are
[3:55] Speaker 1: not willing to cross that line, which is still– they're
[3:58] Speaker 1: still abusing. They're participating just as someone who shares CSAM
[4:02] Speaker 1: is participating in the abuse of children. even if they're
[4:05] Speaker 1: not making it or directly molesting children themselves. I'm not
[4:07] Speaker 1: saying that to reduce their culpability. There was an investigation
[4:10] Speaker 1: that went very viral earlier this year by CNN. And
[4:15] Speaker 1: the term they used for the website they were looking
[4:18] Speaker 1: into was an online rape academy. And that academy was
[4:22] Speaker 1: the website motherless.com, which is, I mean, just from the name,
[4:26] Speaker 1: you can tell this is a place where some upsetting
[4:28] Speaker 1: stuff happens. The website domain was first registered in 2005,
[4:33] Speaker 1: two years after Coco, but nothing went up there until
[4:36] Speaker 1: 2008 when a guy named Joshua Lang founded that and
[4:40] Speaker 1: an LLC in New York City. Motherless billed itself as
[4:43] Speaker 1: a moral free file host where anything legal is hosted forever,
[4:48] Speaker 1: although their definition of legal is. was quite expansive and
[4:52] Speaker 1: included a lot of illegal things, right? Legal deserves all
[4:56] Speaker 1: of the quotation marks. There's a shortage of quotation marks
[5:00] Speaker 1: now because of how many we had to put around legal. Yeah,
[5:03] Speaker 1: could not, like size 78 font, bold. Every page on
[5:09] Speaker 1: motherless.com featured this disclaimer. All content posted to this site
[5:13] Speaker 1: is 100% user contributed. All illegal uploads will be reported.
[5:16] Speaker 1: If you want to blame someone for the content on
[5:18] Speaker 1: this site, Blame the freaks of the world, not us.
[5:20] Speaker 1: Feel free to join the community and upload your goodies.
[5:23] Speaker 1: Don't blame us. Please upload the illegal porn that you're making.
[5:27] Speaker 1: It's not all illegal. I don't even know if to
[5:29] Speaker 1: say most of it is. And a lot of it is,
[5:31] Speaker 1: by the way, when they're referring to illegal uploads, they're
[5:33] Speaker 1: not even talking about like sex crimes. They're talking about
[5:37] Speaker 1: like people who are taking porn someone else produced and
[5:40] Speaker 1: uploading it and breaking like copyright laws, right? Because people–
[5:44] Speaker 1: and again, most of the stuff pointed here is not
[5:46] Speaker 1: like criminal content, right? But a lot of it, an
[5:50] Speaker 1: increasing number of it is. And in case you're curious,
[5:54] Speaker 1: here was Motherless.com's logo. If you can't see it because
[5:58] Speaker 1: you're not on the Netflix, it's– I mean there's– I
[6:01] Speaker 1: found a 2011 California civil suit that described the logo
[6:04] Speaker 1: pretty well as, quote, a depiction of a mother holding
[6:07] Speaker 1: a child's hand with a large red circle on with
[6:10] Speaker 1: a cross through it around it and seemingly ejaculating phallic
[6:13] Speaker 1: symbol protruding from it. Like the motherless.com is sort of
[6:16] Speaker 1: looks like a dick that's ejaculating because it's got this
[6:19] Speaker 1: like white background behind it. It's next to the mom
[6:22] Speaker 1: with a little kid and like a circle with a
[6:26] Speaker 1: cross or with a slash through it thing.
[6:29] Speaker 3: A Ghostbusters thing.
[6:30] Speaker 1: Yeah, like a Ghostbusters thing with like a mom and
[6:32] Speaker 1: a kid.
[6:33] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[6:34] Speaker 1: Said filing also noted that the website had a separate
[6:37] Speaker 1: logo on certain pages that was just a young girl
[6:40] Speaker 1: in ballerina shoes swinging from the roof in a manner
[6:43] Speaker 1: I can only describe as upsetting. Yeah, you'll see it here.
[6:47] Speaker 1: It's not super great. I'm not happy about this. I
[6:50] Speaker 1: don't like that. Nope. Don't like that.
[6:53] Speaker 5: God.
[6:54] Speaker 1: So the users on motherless.com did indeed post, well, goodies,
[7:00] Speaker 1: as the founder of the website described it. An investigation
[7:05] Speaker 1: by Caitlin Roper on the website Collective Shout gives a
[7:07] Speaker 1: good overview of the content offerings. We found illegal hidden
[7:11] Speaker 1: camera videos. Some included images or videos of women often
[7:14] Speaker 1: purported to be perpetrators' female family members in the shower
[7:16] Speaker 1: or toilet. We found hidden camera videos where women were
[7:19] Speaker 1: filmed having sex, apparently unaware they were being filmed, and
[7:22] Speaker 1: often overtly marketed as such. Some videos depicted women blindfolded
[7:26] Speaker 1: and secretly recorded during sex with their male partner, unable
[7:29] Speaker 1: to see the camera. One particularly chilling video, Name Gets
[7:33] Speaker 1: Fucked on Hidden Camera, included the woman's full name in
[7:36] Speaker 1: the title, with a photo of the woman on her
[7:38] Speaker 1: wedding day, captioned 25 years later, then follows footage of
[7:43] Speaker 1: her having sex with her partner, apparently unaware she is
[7:45] Speaker 1: being filmed. So, yeah, that's motherless. Now, it won't surprise
[7:53] Speaker 1: you to hear that this created a river of lawsuits.
[7:56] Speaker 1: The largest of these were generally DMCA violations, because again,
[8:00] Speaker 1: A huge amount of the content here is just repackaged,
[8:02] Speaker 1: like professionally made porn that someone kind of files the
[8:05] Speaker 1: serial numbers off and says, oh, this is totally real.
[8:07] Speaker 1: So at least there's that. A lot of these sleep
[8:10] Speaker 1: videos were like porn that consenting adults made where they're
[8:14] Speaker 1: acting and people would just upload it and say it
[8:16] Speaker 1: was a real video. But far too much of it
[8:19] Speaker 1: was real and often really illegal content. In 2012, Dutch
[8:23] Speaker 1: citizen Aiden Coban posted topless photos of Amanda Todd, a
[8:27] Speaker 1: 15-year-old girl, to Motherless as part of a blackmail scheme.
[8:31] Speaker 1: Todd had started using video chat services in 2009 to 2010,
[8:35] Speaker 1: and a group of pedophiles quickly started trying to groom her.
[8:38] Speaker 1: When one guy managed to convince her after like a
[8:40] Speaker 1: year to take her shirt off on webcam, he screen-capped
[8:44] Speaker 1: the images and used those to start blackmailing her to
[8:46] Speaker 1: do things and take other pictures. Things escalated over a
[8:50] Speaker 1: two-year period until Todd took her own life in 2012.
[8:54] Speaker 1: In the fallout, Aiden was charged with a ton of
[8:56] Speaker 1: different crimes and ultimately sentenced to 13 years in prison.
[9:00] Speaker 1: That's just one of these cases, right? And you see
[9:05] Speaker 1: some of the stuff that we're seeing with Coco. One
[9:08] Speaker 1: thing I want to emphasize here is that Motherless is
[9:11] Speaker 1: a place where this guy is like posting what I
[9:14] Speaker 1: guess we'd call revenge porn or like blackmail content online.
[9:17] Speaker 1: But it's not where the relationship starts. These people, like
[9:20] Speaker 1: Todd started interacting with this person on like a video
[9:23] Speaker 1: chat website. I'm not sure if it was Chatroulette, but
[9:26] Speaker 1: Chatroulette started around this time. And the reason why a
[9:29] Speaker 1: lot of this starts in 2009 or 10 is that
[9:30] Speaker 1: that's when we first start getting a lot of anonymous
[9:33] Speaker 1: video chatting clients that a lot of kids are using.
[9:36] Speaker 1: And like the whole thing with Chatroulette was like, our
[9:39] Speaker 1: friend of the pod, Cody Johnson, did like a parody
[9:41] Speaker 1: song called You're Gonna See a Dick If You're on Chatroulette.
[9:44] Speaker 1: Because people would just expose themselves on it. Like, and
[9:48] Speaker 1: a lot of kids got like shit like that happened
[9:51] Speaker 1: a lot on chat roulette. Now.
[9:53] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[9:53] Speaker 2: I was on chat roulette and Omegle and it really
[9:56] Speaker 2: would be, you, you would, you would get matched with
[9:57] Speaker 2: somebody who was already masturbating. He wasn't even, there wasn't
[10:01] Speaker 2: even like a conversation. It was already happening.
[10:04] Speaker 1: And I, this is also a good place to highlight
[10:05] Speaker 1: the difference between a site like chat roulette and Coco
[10:08] Speaker 1: or motherless. We're like a lot of bad stuff happens
[10:10] Speaker 1: on chat roulette. And this, this kid does get abused.
[10:12] Speaker 1: I don't know if it was chat roulette, but because
[10:14] Speaker 1: they're on a video chatting site, But that wasn't the
[10:16] Speaker 1: purpose of Chatroulette or these other sites. They weren't built
[10:19] Speaker 1: for like weird sex stuff. That was just kind of
[10:21] Speaker 1: a thing that it was a side effect of an
[10:24] Speaker 1: obvious side effect that they should have done more to
[10:26] Speaker 1: deal with. But it wasn't the whole purpose of the site.
[10:28] Speaker 1: And the site was not deliberately sort of like leaning
[10:31] Speaker 1: in to providing freaks a way to masturbate in front
[10:34] Speaker 1: of kids. That was not the purpose of Chatroulette. And
[10:36] Speaker 1: I don't really think there's much in the way of
[10:38] Speaker 1: like blame to a site other than like, well, you
[10:40] Speaker 1: guys should have known that would have been a thing, right?
[10:42] Speaker 2: Like that was a predictable problem.
[10:44] Speaker 1: Yeah. But it is a different kind of thing than
[10:46] Speaker 1: like with Coco, right? Now, again, Motherless is not the
[10:50] Speaker 1: only or primary place where abuse occurred here. Todd's grooming
[10:54] Speaker 1: and blackmail took place in a distributed system of websites
[10:58] Speaker 1: and online communities. And it was she was abused by
[11:02] Speaker 1: what I would describe as a community of abusers that
[11:04] Speaker 1: had coalesced around the first webcam chatting sites from 2009
[11:07] Speaker 1: to 2012. And some of those people would hang out
[11:11] Speaker 1: in Motherless. That was a major gathering space of them.
[11:13] Speaker 1: But it is important you understand. As important as individual
[11:16] Speaker 1: sites may be to some of these specific cases, none
[11:19] Speaker 1: of these abusers are totally reliant on any one of
[11:22] Speaker 1: these sites. And when one of them gets shut down,
[11:24] Speaker 1: they find other places, because the problem is much bigger
[11:27] Speaker 1: than there being bad websites where bad men can do things, right?
[11:31] Speaker 1: These communities are independent of these websites, to some extent
[11:35] Speaker 1: at least, and certainly these individual abusers are. A contemporary
[11:39] Speaker 1: vice report by Patrick McGuire summarized, quote, Pedophiles find young
[11:43] Speaker 1: girls on webcam chat sites like BlogTV, coerce them into
[11:46] Speaker 1: taking their clothes off, screenshot their images clandestinely, and share
[11:49] Speaker 1: the screencaps with each other in a sick bartering system.
[11:53] Speaker 1: So motherless, then, is not the hub of such abuse.
[11:56] Speaker 1: It was instead a place to brag about it and
[11:58] Speaker 1: bask in the adulation of other sex criminals. And what
[12:01] Speaker 1: about the founder of this site, Joshua Lang, right? We
[12:04] Speaker 1: should probably look into him a little bit. And unfortunately,
[12:06] Speaker 1: like Isaac Steadle, his early life, I don't know. I
[12:09] Speaker 1: got nothing.
[12:10] Speaker 3: Right.
[12:10] Speaker 1: He's basically a ghost. He's as much of a ghost
[12:12] Speaker 1: as you can be while still being on the Internet.
[12:14] Speaker 1: It's interesting to me how many of these guys are
[12:16] Speaker 1: very concerned with their own personal privacy. Also kind of
[12:20] Speaker 1: worth pointing out.
[12:21] Speaker 3: Wildly violating the privacy of others.
[12:23] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[12:24] Speaker 2: Huh.
[12:25] Speaker 1: Interesting. Various legal filings list him as the owner, operator
[12:29] Speaker 1: and sole employee of Motherless.com. The website Collective Shout collected
[12:33] Speaker 1: a number of these filings and point to a 2018 case,
[12:37] Speaker 1: Ventura Content v. Motherless, which provided this background that's basically
[12:41] Speaker 1: all I know about Joshua. When Lang started Motherless, he
[12:44] Speaker 1: uploaded around 700,000 pictures and videos that users had uploaded
[12:48] Speaker 1: to a different site to fill out his own, right?
[12:52] Speaker 1: Number one, he's committing a lot of DMCA violations and stuff.
[12:55] Speaker 1: This immediately, like, this is not user-created. That was always
[12:58] Speaker 1: kind of a farce, the idea that these are all
[13:00] Speaker 1: created by users. That was a marketing term. That wasn't real.
[13:04] Speaker 1: Joshua started by stealing a bunch of content from a
[13:07] Speaker 1: bunch of other places, and that included a lot of
[13:10] Speaker 1: illegal content, because in 2018, Joshua E. Lang of Tolano, Illinois,
[13:15] Speaker 1: was convicted of CSAM-related crimes and given a 45-year sentence
[13:19] Speaker 1: for having a massive amount of pictures of kids getting abused, right?
[13:25] Speaker 1: We don't 100% know that this was the guy who
[13:27] Speaker 1: founded motherless.com. That's still kind of a mystery. But the
[13:31] Speaker 1: people at or the author of that collective shout investigation
[13:36] Speaker 1: seems fairly convinced that this is the same Joshua. And
[13:38] Speaker 1: I have to admit, there are some striking similarities between
[13:41] Speaker 1: what the DOJ claims this guy did and what you
[13:44] Speaker 1: would expect from someone who ran a website like motherless.
[13:48] Speaker 1: Per the DOJ's indictment, quote, Lange admitted that he used
[13:53] Speaker 1: the minors to engage in sexually explicit content while the
[13:55] Speaker 1: minors were asleep and produced videos and photographs in his
[13:58] Speaker 1: basement of such conduct. He also admitted to drugging them.
[14:01] Speaker 1: So he's drugging kids and filming sexually explicit content with them, right?
[14:07] Speaker 1: We don't know that this is the guy who founded Motherless,
[14:09] Speaker 1: but it seems really likely.
[14:10] Speaker 3: Sounds like his MO for sure.
[14:12] Speaker 1: Sounds like it probably was, uh, Sleep pornography exploded on
[14:17] Speaker 1: Motherless during the same years that Dominique was active in
[14:20] Speaker 1: Coco over in France. It started around 2010 or 11, right?
[14:24] Speaker 1: I don't know entirely why, but that is really when
[14:27] Speaker 1: this stuff takes off to a big degree, and it
[14:29] Speaker 1: seems to be consistent in a couple of different countries.
[14:33] Speaker 1: I mean, one reason is that this does coincide with
[14:35] Speaker 1: the popularity of video chat apps and the growing ubiquity
[14:37] Speaker 1: of smartphones. To be honest, if I had to think
[14:39] Speaker 1: of one reason why 2010 to 11 is why all
[14:42] Speaker 1: of these, like, non-consensual sleep fetish porn– communities get started
[14:47] Speaker 1: and people start doing this stuff is because that's the
[14:50] Speaker 1: first time when a lot of people had access to
[14:53] Speaker 1: like smartphones that could record decent video that they just
[14:56] Speaker 1: would have in their pocket all the time and it's
[14:58] Speaker 1: when there's like a lot of video chat apps that
[15:00] Speaker 1: are easy to use the internet's fast enough for that
[15:02] Speaker 1: kind of stuff so some of it's just like technically
[15:04] Speaker 1: this was the first time in which a lot of
[15:06] Speaker 1: this stuff was possible most of the men who found
[15:09] Speaker 1: themselves drawn to this kind of content had again less
[15:12] Speaker 1: experience drugging and assaulting women than Dominique Policoe And so
[15:16] Speaker 1: a smaller subset of more experienced users made money and
[15:20] Speaker 1: clout providing these newer people with the tools of the trade.
[15:23] Speaker 1: Per CNN, quote, one motherless user claimed to be running
[15:27] Speaker 1: a business selling and dispatching sleeping liquids to any address
[15:30] Speaker 1: in the world. The man, who said he was based
[15:32] Speaker 1: in Ceuta, a tiny Spanish enclave on the North African coast,
[15:35] Speaker 1: said on his Telegram account that it would cost 150 euros,
[15:38] Speaker 1: approximately $ 175, for a bottle of the liquid that he
[15:41] Speaker 1: said was tasteless and odorless. Your wife won't feel a
[15:44] Speaker 1: thing and won't remember anything. So again, we don't know
[15:49] Speaker 1: if that stuff was real. We know he was mailing
[15:51] Speaker 1: stuff because he posted pictures of it and people seemed
[15:53] Speaker 1: to buy it. There were people saying it worked. I
[15:56] Speaker 1: don't think they've tracked this guy down or know exactly
[15:59] Speaker 1: what that was. But he's not the only person selling
[16:02] Speaker 1: and offering advice on sleeping drugs via motherless.com. And we
[16:05] Speaker 1: know the same thing is happening in Coco around the
[16:07] Speaker 1: same time. It's how Dominique gets started. And it's a
[16:10] Speaker 1: major thing people are doing on this site is buying
[16:13] Speaker 1: and selling the tools of the trade of rape, right?
[16:16] Speaker 1: That's a major thing in motherless in these communities. And
[16:20] Speaker 1: it goes back to.
[16:21] Speaker 2: You talking about how this is really an enterprise. It's
[16:24] Speaker 2: not just, you know, it's a business. It's a business ecosystem.
[16:29] Speaker 1: They're hustling. Yeah, it's a side hustle. Men who got
[16:33] Speaker 1: into this as a business would advertise their content with
[16:36] Speaker 1: tags like hashtag passed out and hashtag I check. The
[16:40] Speaker 1: latter was a hallmark of all these videos. The eye
[16:43] Speaker 1: check is like one of the things guys who are
[16:46] Speaker 1: into this really demand in all of their videos. And
[16:49] Speaker 1: it's like a moment in each of them when a
[16:50] Speaker 1: cameraman will like lean in and pull up the eyelid
[16:52] Speaker 1: to check the eyes of a sleeping victim to make
[16:55] Speaker 1: sure they're unconscious. That's like a major hallmark of all
[16:58] Speaker 1: of this content, I guess. Some eye check videos were
[17:03] Speaker 1: found to have amassed over 50,000 views. So again, this
[17:07] Speaker 1: is not massive in terms of like internet content, but
[17:11] Speaker 1: that's a lot of guys who are watching a drugged
[17:14] Speaker 1: woman for their own sexual gratification on a single website, right?
[17:19] Speaker 1: That's deeply upsetting. Purveyors tended to also sell access to
[17:24] Speaker 1: live streams in which users could watch and even vote
[17:27] Speaker 1: on abusing drugged women and girls in real time for
[17:29] Speaker 1: the equivalent of $ 20 a person paid in cryptocurrency, of course.
[17:34] Speaker 3: There's always a crypto thread to this kind of nonsense.
[17:37] Speaker 5: Always.
[17:38] Speaker 1: Always a crypto angle. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. That CNN report
[17:44] Speaker 1: went viral earlier this year for describing Motherless as a
[17:46] Speaker 1: rape academy. I actually have some issues with that terminology.
[17:50] Speaker 1: We'll talk about that in a little bit. The article
[17:52] Speaker 1: noted that Motherless received 62 million visits in a single month, February. Now,
[17:57] Speaker 1: that is a lot. I should note, obviously, there's a
[18:00] Speaker 1: lot of different content on this, most of which is
[18:03] Speaker 1: not illegal and a lot of which at least does
[18:05] Speaker 1: not inherently involve anything like violent or abusive, although it's
[18:10] Speaker 1: all very unpleasant stuff. But a lot of it's just
[18:12] Speaker 1: like absolute fantasy shit. This is also that that number,
[18:17] Speaker 1: 62 million visits, has been misinterpreted as like there were
[18:21] Speaker 1: articles where people would be like 62 million men attended
[18:23] Speaker 1: a rape cademy. academy or six million men also i've
[18:27] Speaker 1: seen it printed a lot as like six million men
[18:29] Speaker 1: actually attended a rape academy and again there's not an
[18:32] Speaker 1: academy like i think people literally thought there was an
[18:34] Speaker 1: actual like school where like classes were being sold online
[18:38] Speaker 1: that's not what's going on here and i don't really
[18:41] Speaker 1: think rape academy is the right way to describe motherless
[18:43] Speaker 1: i would describe it best as a rape craigslist that's
[18:46] Speaker 1: what's going on here right or facebook ads or whatever.
[18:50] Speaker 1: I forget what they call it.
[18:51] Speaker 4: Sorry.
[18:51] Speaker 3: I remember when that happened, when I think a social
[18:55] Speaker 3: media user.
[18:56] Speaker 1: It was just earlier this year. Yeah.
[18:58] Speaker 3: Like, like misreported the number.
[19:00] Speaker 2: And I hated the conversation that resulted because the.
[19:03] Speaker 3: Number really was inflated. If it was, it's not like, yeah.
[19:07] Speaker 2: And I think that what bothered me about that conversation
[19:10] Speaker 2: was that the actual numbers that CNN reported, I thought
[19:13] Speaker 2: were bad enough. But then it turned into a conversation
[19:17] Speaker 2: about like, oh, well, feminists are lying about this issue
[19:21] Speaker 2: because the number got kind of misinterpreted and misreported on
[19:25] Speaker 2: social media. So I really think we missed an opportunity
[19:28] Speaker 2: to have a meaningful conversation about sexual violence, but we
[19:32] Speaker 2: whiffed it because of that misreporting. And it's really a shame.
[19:36] Speaker 2: That whole conversation just really.
[19:38] Speaker 3: Devolved in a bad way.
[19:41] Speaker 2: I agree with you about it being called a rape academy.
[19:43] Speaker 3: I think they were.
[19:44] Speaker 2: quoting somebody who was quoted in the article, but it
[19:47] Speaker 2: just gave a really in- inconsistent, inaccurate version of what
[19:53] Speaker 2: was actually happening.
[19:54] Speaker 3: And I think it did the whole conversation a disservice.
[19:56] Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. And I also think it led people
[19:59] Speaker 1: to believe that A different kind of harm was being
[20:02] Speaker 1: perpetuated here because the problem– and I think the reason
[20:05] Speaker 1: why they went with the Rape Academy framing is that
[20:07] Speaker 1: it seems to tie this more into like Andrew Tate
[20:09] Speaker 1: who really does operate a Rape Academy or did. And
[20:14] Speaker 1: so I think that's part of why they did it.
[20:15] Speaker 1: But the reason why this site was so dangerous and
[20:18] Speaker 1: it contributed to so many bad things is the same
[20:20] Speaker 1: with Coco. It's not like an academy. It's more like
[20:23] Speaker 1: a Craigslist, right? It's a place where people can buy
[20:25] Speaker 1: and sell and advertise access to illegal content. and tools
[20:28] Speaker 1: to making illegal content and committing sex crimes, right? That's
[20:31] Speaker 1: what's happening here, and that's really bad, right? That said,
[20:34] Speaker 1: it's also not unique. People do this not just on
[20:38] Speaker 1: Motherless and Coco. Shit like this happens on 4chan. You
[20:41] Speaker 1: can even find pieces of this happening on places like Reddit, right?
[20:44] Speaker 1: Those places, particularly Reddit, has a lot more moderation. They
[20:47] Speaker 1: attempt to crack down on it, but that stuff still
[20:49] Speaker 1: happens elsewhere, right? Yeah. Shit fucking.
[20:51] Speaker 3: Rape Craigslist doesn't have the same ring to it, though.
[20:54] Speaker 1: Like... Yeah. And I mean, fuck, the kind of shit
[20:57] Speaker 1: that gets sold on Facebook ads sometimes is pretty sketchy
[21:01] Speaker 1: as well. So, again, and part of why I think
[21:05] Speaker 1: it's a mistake to do that is that framing this
[21:08] Speaker 1: website as a rape academy makes it seem unique and
[21:10] Speaker 1: like a massive and critical hub in this system that
[21:13] Speaker 1: is like teaching men as opposed to like, no, it's
[21:16] Speaker 1: just sort of one of the easiest places for guys
[21:20] Speaker 1: like this to gather and like shell it. And that's
[21:22] Speaker 1: a problem. The site was a problem and needed to
[21:25] Speaker 1: go away, but it's not like a unique load-bearing piece
[21:30] Speaker 1: of sex criminal infrastructure, and that's important for people to
[21:33] Speaker 1: understand if they want to actually fight this, right? There's
[21:37] Speaker 1: a lot of sites that these guys were using. I mean,
[21:40] Speaker 1: some of those early accounts is like the guy who
[21:42] Speaker 1: was selling the sleeping potions or whatever the fuck, he's
[21:45] Speaker 1: advertising on Motherless, but he's actually operating his business out
[21:48] Speaker 1: of Telegram, which is a much larger and much more
[21:51] Speaker 1: widely mainstream-accepted app that's run by a billionaire, right? And
[21:57] Speaker 1: it seems like most of the people who ran businesses
[21:59] Speaker 1: or sold content on Motherless were trying to push users
[22:02] Speaker 1: to their Telegram channels as often as possible in some
[22:05] Speaker 1: other places. The same thing's happening on Coco. A lot
[22:07] Speaker 1: of people on Coco are pushing folks to their Telegrams
[22:11] Speaker 1: in order to like actually do business. Yeah. So now
[22:16] Speaker 1: we return to Coco and the story of Dominique Pelico.
[22:20] Speaker 1: In 2018, Coco was involved in its first major crime
[22:23] Speaker 1: of national significance. Not the first one, but the first
[22:26] Speaker 1: one that like became reported on, right? A 55-year-old man,
[22:31] Speaker 1: Michel Solosi, agreed to meet up with a 22-year-old man
[22:34] Speaker 1: on Coco. Solosi was attacked by this man and beaten
[22:37] Speaker 1: to death in what a court concluded had been a
[22:39] Speaker 1: homophobic attack. The murderer was sentenced to 20 years in prison. Now,
[22:44] Speaker 1: at the time this happened, for a couple of years,
[22:46] Speaker 1: there had been different, like, gay rights organizations in France
[22:50] Speaker 1: that had been complaining about Coco and talking about it
[22:52] Speaker 1: as a hub of homophobic violence. They'd been trying to
[22:55] Speaker 1: warn people away from using it as a hookup app.
[22:58] Speaker 1: So there were already activists who were pointing out before
[23:02] Speaker 1: any of this stuff went viral, this place is really dangerous,
[23:04] Speaker 1: and they were not listened to. We'll talk more about
[23:07] Speaker 1: that later. The next year, 2019, a man from Brest
[23:10] Speaker 1: in northwest France was convicted of exchanging videos of children
[23:14] Speaker 1: being raped over the, without her knowledge, chat room, the
[23:17] Speaker 1: same place Dominique Polico frequented. These cases, and thousands of
[23:22] Speaker 1: less famous cases of harassment, revenge porn, sea salmon, homophobic
[23:25] Speaker 1: beatings linked to Coco by that point, inspired the creation
[23:29] Speaker 1: of a petition to ban or otherwise regulate the site.
[23:32] Speaker 1: Thousands of French citizens signed. Nothing was done. For his part,
[23:36] Speaker 1: Isaac Steadle, founder of the site, took no action to
[23:39] Speaker 1: moderate his platform. Users were sometimes banned if their behavior
[23:43] Speaker 1: elicited legal threats or serious complaints. He had moderators. People
[23:47] Speaker 1: got banned. But along with banning, Isaac instituted a fee
[23:52] Speaker 1: of 10 euros for users to reinstate their banned accounts.
[23:55] Speaker 1: I think, again, I think he stole that from something
[23:57] Speaker 1: awful because it's the same basic thing, right? And when
[24:01] Speaker 1: you do it that way, that's not moderation. That's fundraising.
[24:05] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[24:05] Speaker 3: And incentivizing, I think.
[24:07] Speaker 1: And incentivizing to an extent. Yeah. You know what I
[24:10] Speaker 1: like to incentivize? Products.
[24:15] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[24:22] Speaker 1: We're back.
[24:23] Speaker 3: Your ad breaks crack me up.
[24:26] Speaker 1: They're rough. They're rough with this one. I don't know
[24:28] Speaker 1: how to do it. How do you do a good
[24:29] Speaker 1: ad break transition in this story?
[24:31] Speaker 5: Solid question. I don't think it exists.
[24:34] Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it does not exist. So we're getting up to...
[24:39] Speaker 1: The moment where the story of what Dominique Polico has
[24:42] Speaker 1: been doing to Giselle comes out, right? That happens in 2020.
[24:48] Speaker 1: One day in the early days of the pandemic, I
[24:51] Speaker 1: think before the lockdown, Dominique Polico went out to the
[24:55] Speaker 1: grocery store and was caught for the second time we
[24:57] Speaker 1: know of taking upskirt videos of unsuspecting women. A security
[25:02] Speaker 1: guard not only detained him but called the police. So whatever–
[25:05] Speaker 1: something about his behavior, and I think it was his nonchalance,
[25:08] Speaker 1: how unconcerned he was that he had been caught doing this,
[25:11] Speaker 1: made the security guard think like, I need– this needs
[25:14] Speaker 1: to be escalated. This is more serious, and I need–
[25:19] Speaker 1: for her part, Giselle has given a lot of credit
[25:21] Speaker 1: to the security guard. She's like talked about wanting to
[25:23] Speaker 1: meet him personally to thank him. I don't know if
[25:25] Speaker 1: she actually has, but he went beyond just like what
[25:28] Speaker 1: he was supposed to do for his job and emphasize
[25:30] Speaker 1: to the police, something is wrong with this guy. You
[25:32] Speaker 1: need to look into this. This is not, this is not,
[25:36] Speaker 1: this is whatever he's into is more than upskirts. He's
[25:39] Speaker 1: doing something else.
[25:40] Speaker 2: Right.
[25:40] Speaker 1: I think is kind of the idea that he just
[25:42] Speaker 1: becomes convinced there is something more to this story than
[25:45] Speaker 1: what was already bad. Right. Yeah. Um, And the police,
[25:49] Speaker 1: once they start talking to him, notice the same thing
[25:51] Speaker 1: that like, wow, this guy is really nonchalant and chill
[25:54] Speaker 1: about being arrested for a public sex crime. And that
[25:56] Speaker 1: really disturbs them. And as a result, the police call
[25:59] Speaker 1: in a psychologist, Dr. Layette, to interview Dominique immediately after
[26:03] Speaker 1: his arrest, which is unusual. I don't think that's like
[26:05] Speaker 1: the norm. And it points to the fact that something
[26:07] Speaker 1: about his attitude is really upset a number of people
[26:10] Speaker 1: at this point. Per the BBC, Dr. Layette noted how
[26:14] Speaker 1: breezily he dismissed his crime, like a genteel grandfather caught
[26:17] Speaker 1: pocketing a few cigarettes. Dr. Layette detected a dissonance in
[26:20] Speaker 1: the man's behavior and the strong implication that he was
[26:23] Speaker 1: hiding something more serious. He told the police this one
[26:26] Speaker 1: was worth further inspection or closer inspection. So at this point,
[26:30] Speaker 1: a couple of people, including a psychiatrist, have been like, no,
[26:33] Speaker 1: there's there's we need to really look into this guy.
[26:36] Speaker 1: Like something very, very serious and extensive is wrong with
[26:39] Speaker 1: this man. He's done more than this. one crime we
[26:41] Speaker 1: know he committed. So they go to his home and
[26:44] Speaker 1: they confiscate his hard drive, his computer, and multiple phones.
[26:48] Speaker 1: Because Dominique was providing content to this large community on Coco,
[26:53] Speaker 1: he had documented everything in startling detail. He had carefully
[26:57] Speaker 1: archived with both photo and video proof, not just dozens
[27:02] Speaker 1: and dozens of men raping his wife at his insistence,
[27:04] Speaker 1: but he had archived conversations between them when he had
[27:08] Speaker 1: planned meetups and stuff to have them come over Coco
[27:11] Speaker 1: doesn't save that stuff, right? It's supposed to be anonymous.
[27:14] Speaker 1: He archived all of this content. And so police... Are these, like,
[27:18] Speaker 1: trophies for him? I mean, they're also advertising. I don't
[27:22] Speaker 1: think he's making money off of this, but the clout
[27:24] Speaker 1: surely matters. And he also... He gets off on other
[27:27] Speaker 1: men raping his wife when.
[27:28] Speaker 2: She's asleep, right?
[27:29] Speaker 1: That's what I'm referring to. This allows him to recruit. Yeah.
[27:33] Speaker 5: It allows him to relive what he's done. I....
[27:37] Speaker 1: I do suspect also because of how he behaves in court,
[27:40] Speaker 1: I think part of this was he always knew there
[27:42] Speaker 1: was a chance he would be caught and he wanted
[27:44] Speaker 1: to not be the only one to go down. I
[27:46] Speaker 1: do think he wanted to be able to take these
[27:48] Speaker 1: other guys down with him if he got caught. Please
[27:51] Speaker 1: don't mistake that for me giving him any credit. Absolutely not.
[27:54] Speaker 1: He didn't want to be the only guy punished for this, right?
[27:59] Speaker 5: No, that was him wanting to share the blame. Right, right, right.
[28:03] Speaker 5: Which does not make him a.
[28:06] Speaker 1: No, in no way, shape, or form.
[28:07] Speaker 5: No, he's still scum of the earth. Yeah.
[28:11] Speaker 1: In some ways, maybe even makes it worse that he
[28:13] Speaker 1: clearly is thinking so, like, coolly and logically about all
[28:17] Speaker 1: of the shit he's doing. Yeah. So he has basically
[28:21] Speaker 1: handed them both the case against him and all these
[28:24] Speaker 1: other men on a silver platter. And the police start
[28:26] Speaker 1: using the information he'd gathered to investigate the men he'd
[28:28] Speaker 1: been bringing over. Now, there's a break that... Because he...
[28:31] Speaker 1: bails out or whatever and goes home and he like
[28:34] Speaker 1: contacts Giselle and he's like hey I'm in trouble and
[28:38] Speaker 1: you know I got caught he first he just tells
[28:40] Speaker 1: her about the upskirt photos and she's pissed she thinks
[28:43] Speaker 1: well the police are gonna want to because the police
[28:46] Speaker 1: say they need to talk to her but not for
[28:47] Speaker 1: like a week or two I guess as they're getting
[28:50] Speaker 1: stuff in order this is another point where they should
[28:52] Speaker 1: be criticized because after he gets arrested and he knows
[28:54] Speaker 1: he's fucked because they have all of his hard drives
[28:57] Speaker 1: he knows he is going to go away forever he
[28:59] Speaker 1: knows this is all going to come out he drugs
[29:02] Speaker 1: and rapes her again and has someone come over to
[29:04] Speaker 1: rape her again. He does that one last time. After,
[29:08] Speaker 1: and again, the police, I don't think ever should have
[29:10] Speaker 1: let him go home once they.
[29:11] Speaker 3: Have this stuff.
[29:13] Speaker 1: No, what the fuck?
[29:15] Speaker 2: I understand the thinking of like, we can't, like I
[29:18] Speaker 2: get the thinking.
[29:18] Speaker 1: We don't want to do this right away.
[29:20] Speaker 2: But leaving this woman and her family alone with this guy,
[29:25] Speaker 2: come the fuck on.
[29:26] Speaker 1: Knowing that he's the abuser of, To give them a
[29:30] Speaker 1: little bit of grace, I don't know how quickly they
[29:34] Speaker 1: realized it was Giselle.
[29:36] Speaker 3: Okay.
[29:37] Speaker 1: Right? And I don't... 100% know at what point, but
[29:42] Speaker 1: there was definitely a gap of several days, at least,
[29:44] Speaker 1: after which they knew it was her, and he was
[29:46] Speaker 1: still free. And they have them come into the station together,
[29:50] Speaker 1: and they separate them immediately, right? They take him into custody,
[29:54] Speaker 1: and then they talk to Giselle, right? So, and this is.
[29:59] Speaker 4: That's like, to go back to your example from part one,
[30:02] Speaker 4: that's like if they found out some guy was a
[30:05] Speaker 4: mass shooter and sent him to a school.
[30:10] Speaker 1: Yeah, or if they knew some guy had been committing
[30:14] Speaker 1: a series of murders in the woods and they didn't
[30:16] Speaker 1: know where his gun was and they just let him
[30:18] Speaker 1: go home for a couple of weeks while they get
[30:20] Speaker 1: their ducks in a row. I don't know. I don't
[30:22] Speaker 1: know exactly what to compare it to, but it's really
[30:24] Speaker 1: weird that they do that.
[30:26] Speaker 2: You gotta be a real dirty motherfucker to be like,
[30:28] Speaker 2: I'm gonna, I want one last one before I go away.
[30:31] Speaker 3: You gotta be a real sick puppy.
[30:33] Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it just also reinforces what a monster
[30:36] Speaker 1: he is. And I, again, the police, I don't think
[30:39] Speaker 1: handle this well. I think there's a lot of issues
[30:43] Speaker 1: with this initial part.
[30:44] Speaker 3: That's horrible.
[30:46] Speaker 5: The police are responsible for this woman getting raped again.
[30:51] Speaker 3: It's their fault.
[30:52] Speaker 4: Fuck them.
[30:53] Speaker 1: Fuck all of them. Fuck the entire system. That is
[30:55] Speaker 1: unbelievably evil. Yeah, it's really bleak.
[30:59] Speaker 5: And I guarantee nothing happened to those assholes who didn't
[31:02] Speaker 5: do their fucking jobs.
[31:04] Speaker 1: No, I mean they get– Of course not. And in
[31:06] Speaker 1: her narrative too, they get a lot of credit because
[31:08] Speaker 1: they caught him and stuff and yeah. Again, and I
[31:11] Speaker 1: don't 100% know when they– but there definitely was a
[31:14] Speaker 1: gap in which they knew she was his primary victim
[31:17] Speaker 1: and he was still free, right?
[31:18] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[31:20] Speaker 1: So the police sit her down because they have to
[31:23] Speaker 1: talk to her now. And again, she has gone to
[31:24] Speaker 1: the police station just thinking my husband got in trouble
[31:27] Speaker 1: for being like a weird perverted old man. And I'm
[31:31] Speaker 1: and she's thinking I'm going to make him apologize to
[31:33] Speaker 1: the woman and all this stuff. Right. Make him go
[31:35] Speaker 1: to a psychologist. And then the cops sit her down
[31:37] Speaker 1: and they're like or this one police officer sits her down.
[31:40] Speaker 1: She's like, hey. do you think you know your husband
[31:42] Speaker 1: so well that he can't hide things from you? And
[31:44] Speaker 1: she's like, yeah. And she's like, do you think your
[31:46] Speaker 1: husband is a good man? She's like, yes, I think
[31:47] Speaker 1: he's a very good man. Are you, and then they ask,
[31:50] Speaker 1: are you swingers? Do you guys swap partners? And that's
[31:53] Speaker 1: the other thing. Maybe they didn't fully understand what was,
[31:56] Speaker 1: although they had the chats too. So again, the police
[32:01] Speaker 1: ask like, are you guys, do you guys partner swap?
[32:03] Speaker 3: Right.
[32:04] Speaker 1: And As Giselle later recalled, quote, I heard myself stammering
[32:08] Speaker 1: that swinging was inconceivable for me. I couldn't bear other
[32:11] Speaker 1: men touching me. I needed feelings, right? And I don't
[32:15] Speaker 1: know how you'd respond to this. Maybe this is the
[32:17] Speaker 1: first point they 100% knew. Again, I have trouble believing that.
[32:22] Speaker 1: But the police officer then, I don't know what response
[32:26] Speaker 1: is the right response to give, but he says to
[32:29] Speaker 1: her very bluntly, I am going to show you photos
[32:32] Speaker 1: and videos that are not going to please you, right? Um, uh, yeah, which,
[32:37] Speaker 1: and then he shows her evidence of what had happened
[32:41] Speaker 1: and she is shocked, doesn't believe it at first. Um,
[32:45] Speaker 1: and then it becomes kind of impossible to deny because
[32:47] Speaker 1: there's so many photos.
[32:48] Speaker 2: Right.
[32:49] Speaker 1: But it's this, I mean, I can't even imagine what that,
[32:54] Speaker 1: that aware, like accepting that is like, especially in the
[32:58] Speaker 1: space of a couple of minutes at a police station,
[33:01] Speaker 1: realizing that the foundation of this life that you've built
[33:04] Speaker 1: for half a century and raised three kids with and
[33:06] Speaker 1: have multiple grandkids with this person, that he has been
[33:09] Speaker 1: doing this to you, I can't even comprehend what that–
[33:17] Speaker 1: the effect that would have on you and on the
[33:19] Speaker 1: rest of the family, by the way, once they all
[33:21] Speaker 1: find out, which we'll talk about later. This hits the
[33:23] Speaker 1: family like a fucking bomb.
[33:26] Speaker 2: It's– And I just not to go full like fuck
[33:30] Speaker 2: the police, but I remember reading about this, about the
[33:34] Speaker 2: police asking if they were swingers. And to your point
[33:36] Speaker 2: about they would have by now had the chats that
[33:39] Speaker 2: confirmed that this was not essential.
[33:40] Speaker 1: Right.
[33:41] Speaker 2: I still think there is some attitude, even from the
[33:44] Speaker 2: police that we're hearing, that this must somehow be consensual.
[33:47] Speaker 1: There must have been something.
[33:49] Speaker 2: Even though we're reading in black and white the evidence
[33:51] Speaker 2: that that is clearly not the case, this clearly must
[33:54] Speaker 2: be some sort of game between you two that you
[33:57] Speaker 2: knew about, right?
[33:58] Speaker 5: Also, I'm not exactly familiar with the French police system,
[34:02] Speaker 5: but why was a random cop, the one delivering this
[34:09] Speaker 5: traumatic information to her, That random cop was not properly trained.
[34:14] Speaker 1: They bring in a, they bring in a psych. They
[34:16] Speaker 1: do bring in a psych.
[34:17] Speaker 5: But the cop is the one who says that thing
[34:19] Speaker 5: to her, right?
[34:21] Speaker 1: But I don't, he may have, I don't know. Cause
[34:23] Speaker 1: there are police and stuff who have in different countries
[34:26] Speaker 1: training for, like, I don't know if he was trained
[34:28] Speaker 1: for these kinds of, like, I don't know. So I
[34:29] Speaker 1: don't want to like go in on that.
[34:30] Speaker 5: That delivery is a little insane to me.
[34:34] Speaker 1: I don't know. I honestly don't know what you say.
[34:37] Speaker 1: I don't know how you deliver that news.
[34:40] Speaker 5: But it just seemed like a little bit of like
[34:42] Speaker 5: a mic drop situation, which is not very gentle in
[34:46] Speaker 5: my opinion. But I don't, just to say, I only
[34:51] Speaker 5: have a bachelor's in psychology, so I like don't know
[34:54] Speaker 5: how you would handle that. But like, I don't know. Also,
[34:59] Speaker 5: I feel like it would have been better if the
[35:01] Speaker 5: person delivering the news to her was a woman. Yeah.
[35:05] Speaker 5: But I'm just doing opinions at this point.
[35:08] Speaker 1: Yeah. So per an article in The Independent by Jane
[35:13] Speaker 1: Dalton about this experience, the first photo showed a man
[35:15] Speaker 1: raping a woman who had been laid on her side
[35:17] Speaker 1: and dressed up in a suspender belt. That's you in
[35:19] Speaker 1: this photo, the policeman said. He then showed her another
[35:21] Speaker 1: photo and another after that from a collection of images
[35:24] Speaker 1: that Dominique Pellico had took of his wife over the
[35:26] Speaker 1: years when he regularly knocked her unconscious by lacing her
[35:28] Speaker 1: food and drink with drugs. Miss Pellico could not believe
[35:32] Speaker 1: that the inert woman in the photos was her. I
[35:33] Speaker 1: did not recognize the individual's. nor this woman. Her cheek
[35:36] Speaker 1: was so flabby, her mouth so limp, she was a
[35:39] Speaker 1: rag doll, she writes in her new book recounting her
[35:41] Speaker 1: story of survival and courage. 53 men had come to
[35:44] Speaker 1: our house to rape me, she recalls being told by
[35:46] Speaker 1: the officer, Laurent Perret. God, that's so awful. Yeah, it's just,
[35:53] Speaker 1: I mean, the, And the sheer extent of the crime,
[35:56] Speaker 1: the number of men who were involved to some degree,
[35:58] Speaker 1: the number of men that they actually were able to
[36:00] Speaker 1: like identify by name, that all comes out over a
[36:02] Speaker 1: period of months, right? As they're realizing who each of
[36:05] Speaker 1: these guys are and kind of like figuring them out.
[36:09] Speaker 1: It becomes this story, which becomes in France is known
[36:11] Speaker 1: as the Mazon rape case, right? it becomes an immediate
[36:15] Speaker 1: major national story as soon as this gets out into
[36:19] Speaker 1: the media. And Giselle initially stays anonymous. She has a
[36:24] Speaker 1: right to do that. Rape victims have the right to
[36:26] Speaker 1: be anonymous in France. And so initially she's using a pseudonym,
[36:32] Speaker 1: but also that means that the names of the perpetrators
[36:34] Speaker 1: and whatnot, the alleged perpetrators at this point, are also
[36:37] Speaker 1: being kept from the public, right? Like they also are
[36:41] Speaker 1: obfuscated to a degree because of like of her anonymity, right?
[36:46] Speaker 1: And that also means that the case itself is going
[36:48] Speaker 1: to be anonymous. Well, because they haven't been convicted yet,
[36:51] Speaker 1: I think, is kind of the idea, right? Once the
[36:55] Speaker 1: public hears about this, it sparks immediate outrage, right? And,
[37:00] Speaker 1: you know, that outrage spends the gamut of things, you know,
[37:03] Speaker 1: the patriarchy and rape culture, but also the website Coco
[37:06] Speaker 1: becomes targeted for very obvious reasons. In response to this
[37:10] Speaker 1: new unwanted publicity and notoriety, Isaac Steedle moved the registration
[37:14] Speaker 1: of his website to the Island of Guernsey, a self-governing
[37:17] Speaker 1: committee that uses the. gg URL. There were immediate calls
[37:22] Speaker 1: to prosecute Steedle, but, per The Guardian, holding Steedle accountable
[37:25] Speaker 1: for the site he created also faced another logistical hurdle.
[37:28] Speaker 1: At some point after founding the site, he moved to Bulgaria,
[37:31] Speaker 1: outside the immediate reach of French authorities, and renounced his
[37:34] Speaker 1: French citizenship. Even as Coco was publicly implicated in a
[37:37] Speaker 1: string of violence and sexual abuse, the site remained online
[37:40] Speaker 1: and with Steedle nowhere to be found. Now, as that
[37:44] Speaker 1: last quote makes clear, once Coco was in the news,
[37:48] Speaker 1: story after story goes viral about all of the different
[37:50] Speaker 1: horrific crimes tied to the website. Now, this is also
[37:55] Speaker 1: followed by the fact that More crimes keep being committed
[37:57] Speaker 1: because Coco is still online. In 2022, a 23-year-old man
[38:01] Speaker 1: from Marseille barely survived being run over by three men
[38:04] Speaker 1: in a car after arriving for a hookup arranged via Coco.
[38:08] Speaker 1: Per The Guardian, law enforcement officials arrested four people in
[38:11] Speaker 1: the town of Saint-Poli earlier that year after they were
[38:15] Speaker 1: accused of posing as men looking for hookups on the site,
[38:17] Speaker 1: then luring victims to meet them before violently attacking and
[38:20] Speaker 1: robbing them. Right? And this has been going on for
[38:22] Speaker 1: years and years. The country, the national media does not
[38:25] Speaker 1: pay attention to it and neither do the police until
[38:28] Speaker 1: the story of Dominique and Gisele Pelico goes viral, right?
[38:32] Speaker 1: Like that's what makes them care about the other stuff
[38:37] Speaker 1: that had been going on on Coco. That same year
[38:40] Speaker 1: as the investigation into Pelico's crimes wound on and the
[38:43] Speaker 1: government arrested and charged dozens of men … The investigating
[38:46] Speaker 1: judge's office contacted Zinco, the company Mr. Stiedel had used
[38:50] Speaker 1: to register Coco in 2011, and asked for data connected
[38:53] Speaker 1: to the case. Stiedel or his employees never responded. The
[38:57] Speaker 1: next year, Zinco shut down, and he created a new
[39:00] Speaker 1: company to re-register the website in 2024. But in 2023,
[39:05] Speaker 1: France passed a new law that allows them to prosecute
[39:08] Speaker 1: cases like this by looping multiple crimes against enabled by
[39:12] Speaker 1: a website together into one big case. You don't have
[39:14] Speaker 1: to prosecute each of these as like an individual thing
[39:17] Speaker 1: in order to go after the people at running and
[39:20] Speaker 1: like administering a website like this. This law also allows
[39:24] Speaker 1: prosecutors to hold administrators liable for some activity on their site.
[39:29] Speaker 1: Site founders could be found liable of being complicit if
[39:31] Speaker 1: their website allowed for illicit transactions that fund criminal endeavors,
[39:35] Speaker 1: which Coco definitely did. And I want to make it clear,
[39:40] Speaker 1: number one, I don't speak French. I am not familiar
[39:42] Speaker 1: with the specifics of this law enough to say if
[39:45] Speaker 1: I think it's a good law or I endorse it
[39:46] Speaker 1: or whatever. I'm trying to describe how the news sites
[39:49] Speaker 1: I ever had described it um i don't inherently have
[39:52] Speaker 1: an issue with making it easier to go after the
[39:54] Speaker 1: administrators of websites that are doing stuff like this as
[39:56] Speaker 1: long as the things they're being liable of are you
[39:58] Speaker 1: know limited in a way that is does not have
[40:00] Speaker 1: freedom of speech concerns and if that is an accurate
[40:02] Speaker 1: description that they're complicit if their site allows for illicit
[40:06] Speaker 1: transactions funding criminal endeavors um coco definitely was doing that
[40:11] Speaker 1: and isaac steedle was for sure aware of it it
[40:12] Speaker 1: was the main reason people were like spending like using
[40:15] Speaker 1: fucking coco was to do stuff like this right um
[40:19] Speaker 1: As the investigations continued, journalists also began to look into
[40:22] Speaker 1: Coco and its community. I found this segment from a
[40:24] Speaker 1: CNN investigation particularly telling. Having examined nearly 6,000 messages sent
[40:30] Speaker 1: in the course of 24 hours on 30 different chat
[40:32] Speaker 1: rooms on the site, CNN found several strikingly similar patterns
[40:35] Speaker 1: between those messages and the ones exchanged by Dominique Polico
[40:38] Speaker 1: with users on Coco. Around three in four of the
[40:41] Speaker 1: accounts that were active when CNN was gathering data were
[40:44] Speaker 1: registered as men. A clear trend emerged of men sharing
[40:48] Speaker 1: explicit photos of their wives and girlfriends on the site
[40:50] Speaker 1: for the pleasure of other men. It is unclear if
[40:52] Speaker 1: the photos were taken or exchanged with the women's consent.
[40:55] Speaker 1: Users also frequently sought to move conversations over to private
[40:58] Speaker 1: messaging platforms such as Skype or Snapchat. Snapchat and Skype
[41:01] Speaker 1: declined to comment.
[41:03] Speaker 5: See, I was right with my Evan Spiegel.
[41:06] Speaker 3: In part one. You really called it.
[41:09] Speaker 1: You did, you did. I'd forgotten that, but yeah. That
[41:12] Speaker 1: is important, and I've been trying to point out, as
[41:15] Speaker 1: much as we're focusing on cocoa and motherless, these are
[41:18] Speaker 1: spokes in, like, a wheel, right? They're not the wheel.
[41:22] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[41:24] Speaker 1: After an enormous 18-month international effort involving not just the
[41:27] Speaker 1: French government, but the governments of Bulgaria, Lithuania, Hungary, and Germany,
[41:31] Speaker 1: to name a few, cocoa was shut down in the
[41:33] Speaker 1: summer of 2024, and more than 5.6 million euros were
[41:37] Speaker 1: seized from Isaac Steadle in multiple bank accounts. Steele was
[41:40] Speaker 1: questioned with French prosecutors present, and three of his associates
[41:44] Speaker 1: were detained and questioned as well. While Coco did pop
[41:48] Speaker 1: back up after it was taken down, it was quickly
[41:50] Speaker 1: brought back down again, although not before more reporters were
[41:54] Speaker 1: able to look into it. Per the BBC, and this
[41:56] Speaker 1: is about Coco during that brief few-day period, I think,
[41:59] Speaker 1: when it was up, French outlet BFM reported that its
[42:02] Speaker 1: journalists were able to sign into the website in seconds
[42:04] Speaker 1: without any registration or checks. Posing as a 13-year-old girl,
[42:07] Speaker 1: the journalists were immediately contacted by users who persisted in
[42:10] Speaker 1: sending them lewd photos and sexually explicit messages, even after
[42:13] Speaker 1: they were made aware that the girl was underage. So,
[42:18] Speaker 1: charming community at Coco. Now, again, critics of the state's
[42:23] Speaker 1: response have been quick to point out that Coco was
[42:25] Speaker 1: not unique in anything but size and notoriety, and once
[42:28] Speaker 1: it was taken down, users simply jumped to other platforms.
[42:32] Speaker 1: There were plenty to choose from. Many, for example... leapt
[42:35] Speaker 1: over to Telegram's then-popular ZZZZ, you know, community. That's the
[42:40] Speaker 1: name for their sleep, one of the sleep fetishist communities
[42:43] Speaker 1: on Telegram. Like snoring, right? CNN also looked into this community.
[42:48] Speaker 1: Their article quoted Annabelle Montaigne, a psychologist who assessed many
[42:51] Speaker 1: of the men in the Polico trial. She noted this
[42:54] Speaker 1: of the broader sleep fetish community. Within these sites, there
[42:58] Speaker 1: is also this notion of almost brotherhood, she said, adding
[43:01] Speaker 1: that participants find themselves creating bonds that meet and reinforce
[43:05] Speaker 1: their narcissistic needs. And I don't know. I'm not going
[43:09] Speaker 1: to try to get too deep into the woods of–
[43:11] Speaker 1: because there's also psychiatric analysis of Dominique, and I just don't–
[43:14] Speaker 1: I don't find that very compelling, to be honest. There's
[43:18] Speaker 1: pages of his psychiatrist being like, I think his brain–
[43:21] Speaker 1: he had these little boxes that he put different aspects
[43:23] Speaker 1: of his brain. I don't care.
[43:24] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[43:25] Speaker 1: That's not the most important thing about this to me.
[43:28] Speaker 1: You're like, a creep is a creep. I don't give
[43:30] Speaker 1: a fuck about his brain.
[43:31] Speaker 3: A creep is a creep.
[43:33] Speaker 1: The fact that there's this community that do feel bonded
[43:37] Speaker 1: to each other and that are reinforcing those bonds by
[43:39] Speaker 1: committing crimes together and sharing, that is important. That is
[43:43] Speaker 1: part of what makes this so hard to take out
[43:45] Speaker 1: because this is a community that is not rooted just
[43:49] Speaker 1: to a website. These are men who want to and
[43:53] Speaker 1: probably do have contact with each other outside of that
[43:55] Speaker 1: and have bonds outside of that. And that's the ultimate problem.
[43:59] Speaker 1: The website is a tool that they're using. It's a
[44:01] Speaker 1: weapon that they're using. And it's important to take that down.
[44:04] Speaker 1: It's important to punish people who knowingly provide these folks
[44:06] Speaker 1: with weapons. But the community, this brotherhood still exists and
[44:10] Speaker 1: is still out there offending, right? This problem also exists
[44:14] Speaker 1: outside of weird internet communities. One of France's leading lawmakers
[44:18] Speaker 1: crusading against drug-facilitated sexual abuse is Sandrine Josseau. She was
[44:22] Speaker 1: once drugged and assaulted by a former French senator. When
[44:26] Speaker 1: CNN investigated similar communities on Motherless and Telegram, woman after
[44:30] Speaker 1: woman came forward with horrific stories of being drugged and
[44:33] Speaker 1: raped by their partners, husbands, boyfriends, all sorts of stuff.
[44:37] Speaker 1: But no one I'm aware of endured quite what Gisele
[44:41] Speaker 1: Pelico did. One early article on her case in Le
[44:44] Speaker 1: Monde wrote, quote, As she awaits the trial to give
[44:48] Speaker 1: her answer, she clings to her anonymity as an essential
[44:51] Speaker 1: factor to rebuilding her life. And you'll notice I'm using
[44:53] Speaker 1: her real name. Um... which is not, that's not the
[44:56] Speaker 1: name she goes by socially anymore, but it is the
[44:58] Speaker 1: name she published her autobiography under. So I'm using it
[45:02] Speaker 1: in this. I think that's acceptable given that she put
[45:04] Speaker 1: her biography out in this. And she did that because
[45:06] Speaker 1: she wants maximum visibility, right? She decided very late, right
[45:12] Speaker 1: before the trial started pretty much, But she decided not
[45:15] Speaker 1: to be anonymous. She chose to cast that aside so
[45:18] Speaker 1: that the trial could be covered and filmed and also
[45:22] Speaker 1: so that everyone would get to see the names of
[45:25] Speaker 1: the men who had raped her and see their faces
[45:28] Speaker 1: while they were being tried. That was very important to her.
[45:31] Speaker 1: And she decided that the ultimate thing, as she described
[45:34] Speaker 1: in her memoir, that made her choose to not be anonymous,
[45:38] Speaker 1: even though that's obviously terrifying and very difficult and painful,
[45:42] Speaker 1: is that her attitude is– Right now, the problem is
[45:46] Speaker 1: that women who are abused by men feel this deep
[45:49] Speaker 1: sense of shame and the shame should be on the men.
[45:52] Speaker 1: And if I want that change to happen, one thing
[45:55] Speaker 1: I can do is be very public about the fact
[45:58] Speaker 1: that this happened to me so that everyone sees who
[46:00] Speaker 1: did it to me and everyone sees those men and
[46:03] Speaker 1: they cannot deny it. Part of her concern was that like, well,
[46:06] Speaker 1: if I'm anonymous, this will just get reported on in
[46:09] Speaker 1: a couple of like news articles, but there won't be
[46:11] Speaker 1: that like direct face connection, the name connection. People won't
[46:14] Speaker 1: know how normal these guys were who did this to me,
[46:17] Speaker 1: how many of them there were in my community. These
[46:19] Speaker 1: were just men who lived around me. And I think
[46:22] Speaker 1: it's a very heroic stance to take that she chose
[46:25] Speaker 1: to put her name out there in order to not
[46:28] Speaker 1: just try to ensure these men got as much justice
[46:30] Speaker 1: as possible, but so that other rape victims wouldn't feel
[46:33] Speaker 1: alone and wouldn't feel like they need to hide. She
[46:36] Speaker 1: did it for other women who were being victimized and
[46:38] Speaker 1: who had been victimized like her. And I think that's
[46:41] Speaker 1: a really heroic thing.
[46:42] Speaker 2: Her saying the shame must the shame must change hands
[46:46] Speaker 2: that like victims and survivors should not be the ones
[46:49] Speaker 2: carrying the shame we have to shift where the shame
[46:53] Speaker 2: goes to the men and I really I can't imagine
[46:56] Speaker 2: I remember I was working on a Instagram carousel about
[47:00] Speaker 2: this and Yeah.
[47:01] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[47:23] Speaker 2: People need a face and a name and a story
[47:26] Speaker 2: sometimes to care about a crime and to make that
[47:28] Speaker 2: crime and that systemic issue real for them in a
[47:30] Speaker 2: real way. And I just, I'm so curious what the
[47:33] Speaker 2: conversation around this, this would have been like, had she
[47:37] Speaker 2: not had the bravery to attach this to her name
[47:40] Speaker 2: and her face and her story.
[47:41] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[47:42] Speaker 1: Would it, would this have been as well known? Would this,
[47:45] Speaker 1: and would more of the discourse have been like, oh, well,
[47:48] Speaker 1: this is probably just some weird kink thing that she got, right?
[47:50] Speaker 1: Like how much of it would have been that? Um, Yeah.
[47:54] Speaker 1: I mean, it's a very heroic and like really difficult
[47:57] Speaker 1: choice to make. She's a hero. Yeah. Most in her
[48:01] Speaker 1: memoir is very good. Most of the men who had
[48:05] Speaker 1: raped her tried to deny that they had known she
[48:07] Speaker 1: was really unaware of what was happening. They thought, oh,
[48:10] Speaker 1: I thought she was into it. I thought she made
[48:11] Speaker 1: a hand gesture towards me. And like, to be honest,
[48:14] Speaker 1: she may have been, quote unquote, conscious for some of these.
[48:16] Speaker 1: But when you are that drugged out on benzos, you
[48:19] Speaker 1: can be awake. You can even talk. But you're not
[48:22] Speaker 1: forming memories. Right. And you're not consenting because you're drugged
[48:27] Speaker 1: out of your fucking mind.
[48:28] Speaker 5: Also, also, they have been told that that she will
[48:32] Speaker 5: be that way before coming to the house. So shut
[48:35] Speaker 5: the fuck up. You're liars and rapists.
[48:37] Speaker 3: We hate you.
[48:39] Speaker 1: This is the for his part. And I again, I don't.
[48:42] Speaker 1: want this to come across positively for him, but Dominique
[48:45] Speaker 1: testified repeatedly that these men were lying. And he made
[48:47] Speaker 1: it very clear, like, no, I told them it was rape.
[48:51] Speaker 1: I told them she didn't know. They were fully aware
[48:54] Speaker 1: of what they were doing. And he made it clear.
[48:56] Speaker 1: He said that he admitted to being a rapist and
[48:58] Speaker 1: he was like, and so are all these other guys, right?
[49:01] Speaker 1: And also a lot of the dudes who got arrested, again,
[49:05] Speaker 1: 50 of them, were found to have, and Dominique also
[49:08] Speaker 1: had a lot of child sexual abuse images in his possession,
[49:11] Speaker 1: and so did a bunch of these guys. These were
[49:13] Speaker 1: often prolific CSAMA owners and traders. To give you one
[49:17] Speaker 1: representative example, I'm going to quote from an article in
[49:20] Speaker 1: Le Monde by Lorraine de Foucher. Lorraine de Foucher?
[49:23] Speaker 2: I don't know.
[49:23] Speaker 1: I'm not French. I think I got Giselle's name right.
[49:27] Speaker 1: I worked really hard on that and on Apollico, but... Quote,
[49:32] Speaker 1: in one of Dominique P's videos, Christian L, that's the
[49:35] Speaker 1: other perpetrator, carries out the rape while wearing a uniform
[49:37] Speaker 1: shirt bearing the words, He is careful to whisper and
[49:42] Speaker 1: not to make any sudden movements. In police custody, he
[49:44] Speaker 1: protested faintly, explaining that the husband had told him that
[49:47] Speaker 1: his wife agreed, but that she was shy. When confronted
[49:50] Speaker 1: with the exchanges on Coco and the images, he said
[49:52] Speaker 1: that he was disturbed by Francois P's lack of consent.
[49:55] Speaker 1: That was the pseudonym she was going by at the time.
[49:58] Speaker 1: before later admitting that the fact that she was unconscious
[50:01] Speaker 1: turned him on. From prison, the firefighter insisted that his
[50:04] Speaker 1: girlfriend go get his computer from the fire station, otherwise
[50:08] Speaker 1: we'd be gone for years, according to a conversation intercepted
[50:11] Speaker 1: by the prison administration. In fact, on his hard drives,
[50:14] Speaker 1: the police found 728 images showing the sexual exploitation of children,
[50:18] Speaker 1: and a Skype negotiation with a resident in Metz to
[50:21] Speaker 1: rape his sedated 15-year-old daughter. Christian explained to his parents
[50:26] Speaker 1: that he was a victim of a witch hunt, a
[50:27] Speaker 1: chain of circumstances at the wrong time that had landed
[50:30] Speaker 1: him in prison, but that this wasn't the case of
[50:32] Speaker 1: the century. So first off, every one of these 50
[50:36] Speaker 1: dudes who all lived within 30 miles of their fucking house,
[50:39] Speaker 1: nearly every one of them was a sex criminal of
[50:42] Speaker 1: a fairly prolific level outside of this, right? Which shows
[50:46] Speaker 1: you how fucking common that is. The fact that so
[50:48] Speaker 1: many of them had child... sexual abuse imagery and that
[50:51] Speaker 1: like this guy is working at negotiate on skype to
[50:54] Speaker 1: rape a child that's being drugged which also means that
[50:57] Speaker 1: like there's a lot of other guys offering up their
[50:59] Speaker 1: kids their wives their girlfriends after drugging them in such
[51:03] Speaker 1: like this is not dominique's not alone he might be
[51:05] Speaker 1: the most prolific but he might not be we really
[51:07] Speaker 1: have no way of knowing i know this isn't the point.
[51:11] Speaker 2: Of the anecdote why did this dipshit wear his work
[51:13] Speaker 2: uniform to do.
[51:14] Speaker 1: This Great question.
[51:16] Speaker 3: What was the thinking there?
[51:17] Speaker 1: I don't know. I cannot answer that question for you.
[51:21] Speaker 5: I certainly can.
[51:22] Speaker 1: Stupid is as stupid does, Robert. Fucking idiot, yeah. But
[51:26] Speaker 1: I can't walk you through his thought process if there
[51:28] Speaker 1: was one. In court, Dominique's responses to most questions were,
[51:33] Speaker 1: I guess what you'd call the best case scenario for that.
[51:37] Speaker 1: He admitted his own monstrous deeds to his wife. He
[51:40] Speaker 1: absolved her of any blame. And in some cases, he
[51:42] Speaker 1: even argued with his own defense attorney to defend his
[51:45] Speaker 1: wife and repeatedly chimed in to ensure his fellow defendants
[51:48] Speaker 1: were convicted. However, that is Dominique when he cannot get away,
[51:52] Speaker 1: when he knows the evidence is dead to rights. One
[51:55] Speaker 1: of the things that Giselle points out in her memoir
[51:57] Speaker 1: is that after he was arrested, one of the first
[51:59] Speaker 1: things he did was he tried to incite arguments and
[52:02] Speaker 1: fighting within the family by making them like, distrust each
[52:06] Speaker 1: other classic because again he he's only being honest and
[52:11] Speaker 1: open in this because they've got him fucking dead to
[52:13] Speaker 1: rights um and we'll talk there's some other things he's
[52:15] Speaker 1: not open and honest about that we'll talk about um
[52:19] Speaker 1: but first here's ads and we're back so while dominique
[52:30] Speaker 1: admitted to every crime that he was proven to have
[52:33] Speaker 1: committed he continued to deny in court that he had
[52:35] Speaker 1: done anything at all to harm his children, their children,
[52:39] Speaker 1: or his in-laws. Police found photos he or someone else
[52:42] Speaker 1: took of his daughter Carolyn while asleep. Obviously, there was
[52:45] Speaker 1: videos of his daughters-in-law. One of his grandsons, he raped
[52:53] Speaker 1: or did something. I don't think the exact extent is known,
[52:56] Speaker 1: but some of this stuff, people realized that As a
[53:01] Speaker 1: result of this, oh, that time when I felt really
[53:04] Speaker 1: woozy and didn't remember something and I was with grandpa, right?
[53:08] Speaker 1: We don't know how many of his family members he
[53:11] Speaker 1: physically abused in addition to like the unconsensual photos and stuff.
[53:17] Speaker 1: But all of them, like his daughter, Carolyn, there's no
[53:21] Speaker 1: hard evidence that he drugged or raped her. She believes
[53:24] Speaker 1: that he drugged and raped her and I can't imagine
[53:27] Speaker 1: why she wouldn't, right?
[53:29] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[53:29] Speaker 1: And I mean, one of the fucking initially there's like
[53:32] Speaker 1: even and Giselle doesn't talk about it for obvious reasons much.
[53:35] Speaker 1: But there was a point early in the case in
[53:37] Speaker 1: which they kind of suspected her.
[53:40] Speaker 4: Right.
[53:40] Speaker 1: Because you don't know. You just hear that your dad
[53:41] Speaker 1: did this. You're not going to assume, well, mom couldn't
[53:44] Speaker 1: have known anything about it in the first days after
[53:46] Speaker 1: you find this out.
[53:47] Speaker 2: Right.
[53:47] Speaker 1: Like this is such a and this I think the family,
[53:50] Speaker 1: it sounds like from Giselle's count is doing a lot
[53:52] Speaker 1: better now. But for like a year, this shatters them all.
[53:55] Speaker 3: Of course.
[53:56] Speaker 1: Her oldest kid was 50. You're a mature middle-aged adult,
[54:00] Speaker 1: and you realize that your entire foundation of your family
[54:03] Speaker 1: life is a lie, and that your dad not only
[54:05] Speaker 1: may have raped and abused you, but your kids, and
[54:09] Speaker 1: I can't even comprehend the level of fucked that that
[54:13] Speaker 1: is to your head.
[54:14] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[54:15] Speaker 2: I feel like as women, we're often kind of told
[54:18] Speaker 2: to fear strangers.
[54:20] Speaker 3: People in a dark alley, and the idea that the
[54:23] Speaker 3: threat is.
[54:23] Speaker 1: Call is coming from inside the house.
[54:25] Speaker 2: Yeah, the call is coming from inside the house. The
[54:27] Speaker 2: threat is your own family inside of your own home.
[54:30] Speaker 2: I do think that is... It's just a special level
[54:33] Speaker 2: of shattering.
[54:34] Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah.
[54:35] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[54:37] Speaker 1: Jesus. The couple's youngest son, Florian, went to a divorce
[54:40] Speaker 1: that he blames on this, and I... Don't doubt that.
[54:44] Speaker 1: I can imagine the stress of this making it very
[54:47] Speaker 1: difficult to be a good and effective partner to your spouse, right?
[54:51] Speaker 1: Like just a fucking nightmare. Their oldest son, David, has
[54:56] Speaker 1: stated that his son is convinced he was abused by
[54:59] Speaker 1: his grandfather. I'm going to quote again from the New
[55:01] Speaker 1: York Times describing David's testimony. David Palico, a sales manager
[55:05] Speaker 1: for a champagne company, said that he had shared a
[55:07] Speaker 1: passion for soccer, tennis, and moviegoing with his father. He
[55:10] Speaker 1: described the magical surprise birthday parties his parents had planned
[55:12] Speaker 1: for him and his siblings to the delight and envy
[55:14] Speaker 1: of all their friends. I lost, and I have the
[55:16] Speaker 1: feeling today, all my childhood has disappeared. It was erased,
[55:20] Speaker 1: he said. Now his hope is that, above all, in
[55:23] Speaker 1: the future, we can erase, make disappear in our heads,
[55:25] Speaker 1: the man who is to the left, he said, pointing
[55:28] Speaker 1: to his father in the box.
[55:30] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[55:31] Speaker 1: And, like, obviously, you know, I won't even say that
[55:34] Speaker 1: that's not a crime game. Commensurate to like the sexual assaults,
[55:38] Speaker 1: this destruction of your kids understanding of their entire life.
[55:41] Speaker 1: That is a horrible crime that deserves to be mentioned
[55:43] Speaker 1: right up alongside the rapes. That's an unbelievable violation to
[55:47] Speaker 1: molest your grandkids and to like to just like Jesus. Like, yeah,
[55:54] Speaker 1: I don't know how you deal with this, like as
[55:58] Speaker 1: a person.
[55:59] Speaker 2: I remember reading about a similar case where a woman,
[56:03] Speaker 2: her husband was drugging her and every night before bed
[56:06] Speaker 2: he would bring her this mug of tea.
[56:08] Speaker 3: And when she found out what happened and was talking.
[56:10] Speaker 2: To the police, just this idea that like this gesture
[56:14] Speaker 2: that I had interpreted as sweet that happened regularly.
[56:18] Speaker 1: He made me my favorite dinner.
[56:19] Speaker 3: Exactly.
[56:20] Speaker 2: Every instance of that is now something that has been
[56:23] Speaker 2: totally recontextualized in your mind in the most horrific way.
[56:27] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[56:28] Speaker 1: As just, yeah, I, yeah, God. Dominique received the maximum sentence,
[56:33] Speaker 1: 20 years in prison, which at his age, he's in
[56:36] Speaker 1: his 70s, means a life sentence. He's going to die
[56:38] Speaker 1: in prison. Wait, how many years did he get? 20.
[56:41] Speaker 1: That's the maximum that French law allowed, right? So he
[56:44] Speaker 1: got the max sentence and he's going to die in prison.
[56:47] Speaker 1: He's fucking 70 something. The other 50 men on trial
[56:50] Speaker 1: were all convicted. Most of them received six to nine
[56:53] Speaker 1: year sentences, which most reporting I've seen will note was
[56:56] Speaker 1: lighter than the terms recommended by the prosecution because the
[56:58] Speaker 1: prosecution had asked for 10 to 18 years. Per the
[57:01] Speaker 1: New York Times, the sentences are relatively lenient given the
[57:05] Speaker 1: gravity of the acts, which could have been classified as torture,
[57:07] Speaker 1: said Lorraine Castillo, a lawyer whose practice in Paris focuses
[57:11] Speaker 1: on violence against women. The men got a huge gift
[57:13] Speaker 1: by being tried in a regional criminal court, she said,
[57:16] Speaker 1: adding that she believed the relatively low sentences reflected a
[57:19] Speaker 1: strategic decision by the five presiding judges to avoid costly
[57:23] Speaker 1: appeals that would jam up the appeals court. Six of
[57:25] Speaker 1: the perpetrators were released the day of their conviction for
[57:29] Speaker 1: time served.
[57:29] Speaker 3: That's horrific.
[57:30] Speaker 1: That's horrific.
[57:31] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[57:32] Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know what I'd say the right sentence is,
[57:36] Speaker 1: but certainly none of them should have walked free on
[57:37] Speaker 1: that day. 10 to 18 certainly sounds.
[57:42] Speaker 1: Better. As I've noted and discussed throughout these episodes, Dominique
[57:48] Speaker 1: and the men he brought into the Pelico home were
[57:49] Speaker 1: not the only perpetrators, and the French government started rounding
[57:52] Speaker 1: up the staff at Coco, such as it was in 2024.
[57:55] Speaker 1: Two site moderators were arrested, and Paris prosecutor Laurie Bacow
[58:00] Speaker 1: has stated that since their investigation began, more than 23,000
[58:03] Speaker 1: criminal acts have been tied to Coco. 23,000 individual criminal acts.
[58:05] Speaker 1: 23,000 that they know of. And considering this is an
[58:13] Speaker 1: anonymous site, that's startling. Isaac Steedle himself was arrested and
[58:19] Speaker 1: charged in January of 2025 with complicity in drug trafficking, possession,
[58:23] Speaker 1: and distribution of CSAM, corruption of a minor through the internet,
[58:26] Speaker 1: and criminal conspiracy. His lawyer, Julian Zanotta, denies Steedle's guilt.
[58:31] Speaker 1: It is worth noting that queer advocacy organizations in France
[58:34] Speaker 1: had been lobbying for Coco's closure without any sort of
[58:37] Speaker 1: progress for years. The SOS Homophobia Association started demanding this
[58:43] Speaker 1: after that vehicular attack on a gay man in Marseille
[58:46] Speaker 1: in like 2022. To quote again from Le Monde, at
[58:49] Speaker 1: least 300 men were trapped and violently attacked between 2018
[58:52] Speaker 1: and 2022, according to our colleagues. That's a quote from
[58:56] Speaker 1: SOS Homophobia.
[58:57] Speaker 2: Oh my God. Yeah.
[58:58] Speaker 1: Yeah. It is a good thing that Steedle and his
[59:01] Speaker 1: associates are being brought to justice, and it is good
[59:04] Speaker 1: that Coco was taken down, but all this only happened
[59:06] Speaker 1: because Dominique's crimes went so fucking viral, and people should
[59:09] Speaker 1: not forget that. They also should not forget that the
[59:12] Speaker 1: vast majority of people who partook in Coco's without her
[59:15] Speaker 1: knowledge board are still out there. Years after Coco was
[59:18] Speaker 1: shut down, CNN published that investigation into Motherless.com, where the
[59:22] Speaker 1: same shit happens. And now that that's been taken down,
[59:27] Speaker 1: because Motherless is down after that investigation, at least was
[59:30] Speaker 1: last I read anything about it, people have surely migrated
[59:33] Speaker 1: to new platforms, including Telegram. Now, I brought up Telegram
[59:37] Speaker 1: a number of times in these episodes. Men on Coco
[59:40] Speaker 1: and Motherless regularly tried to direct their fans and customers
[59:43] Speaker 1: to private Telegram channels. The founder of Telegram is a
[59:46] Speaker 1: tech CEO named Pavel Durov, who I am sure we
[59:48] Speaker 1: will talk about more in the future. He is 39
[59:51] Speaker 1: years old and a billionaire, and he is guilty of
[59:54] Speaker 1: exactly the same kinds of crimes as Isaac Steele. Probably
[59:57] Speaker 1: quite a few more of them, to be honest. In
[1:00:00] Speaker 1: late August of 2024, Durov was detained after his private
[1:00:03] Speaker 1: jet landed in France and arrested under a warrant for,
[1:00:05] Speaker 1: per the BBC, offenses related to the popular messaging app.
[1:00:09] Speaker 1: The investigation is reportedly about a lack of moderation, with Mr.
[1:00:12] Speaker 1: Durov accused of failing to take steps to curb criminal
[1:00:15] Speaker 1: uses of telegrams. He's accused of failure to cooperate with
[1:00:18] Speaker 1: law enforcement over drug trafficking, child sexual content and fraud, right?
[1:00:21] Speaker 1: That's what they're saying happens on Telegram because it does.
[1:00:25] Speaker 1: Durov was released. He was eventually– like the next year,
[1:00:28] Speaker 1: he was allowed to go home to Dubai for limited visits.
[1:00:31] Speaker 1: He's not allowed to leave for more than two weeks
[1:00:33] Speaker 1: at a time while like his case is being processed.
[1:00:38] Speaker 1: Of course, he lives in Dubai. Telegram is now based
[1:00:40] Speaker 1: out of Dubai. Durov is also wanted in Russia. He's
[1:00:43] Speaker 1: been charged with crimes there. I'm not as familiar with
[1:00:45] Speaker 1: it because it's the Russian government. I don't actually know
[1:00:47] Speaker 1: if they're entirely– I'm not as familiar with that. But yeah,
[1:00:53] Speaker 1: the case against him is still ongoing. One of the
[1:00:56] Speaker 1: difficulties is that Telegram is a much larger operation than Coco,
[1:01:00] Speaker 1: and it is not primarily used by people who are
[1:01:02] Speaker 1: doing illegal shit and doing bad shit even, I should say.
[1:01:06] Speaker 1: In a lot of places, it's almost as common as WhatsApp, right?
[1:01:10] Speaker 1: But it also is a hive for white supremacist terrorism.
[1:01:13] Speaker 1: They call it Terrorgram for a reason, right? People have
[1:01:17] Speaker 1: planned a lot of attacks and radicalized others to commit
[1:01:19] Speaker 1: a lot of attacks via Telegram. A lot of CSAM
[1:01:22] Speaker 1: is distributed and created via Telegram, a lot of sexual
[1:01:26] Speaker 1: abuse-related content. And Durov became a billionaire profiting off of
[1:01:30] Speaker 1: that for all of these years. University of Toronto policy
[1:01:33] Speaker 1: researcher John Scott Railton described Pavel Durov's arrest by French
[1:01:36] Speaker 1: authorities as unprecedented. This is the first time a real
[1:01:40] Speaker 1: founder in like a major sense has been arrested for
[1:01:43] Speaker 1: like crimes committed using a large app or website, right? Now,
[1:01:50] Speaker 1: there are a lot of valid civil rights and freedom
[1:01:52] Speaker 1: of speech concerns here, mostly in the fact that the
[1:01:55] Speaker 1: justified disgust and fear over what Telegram has been used
[1:01:57] Speaker 1: for and what Cocoa is used for have provided governments
[1:02:00] Speaker 1: and state security services with an excuse to attack end-to-end encryption,
[1:02:04] Speaker 1: which they hate for other reasons. And end-to-end encryption had
[1:02:07] Speaker 1: nothing to do with why these crimes were able to
[1:02:09] Speaker 1: be committed for so long. Again, he was busted for
[1:02:12] Speaker 1: taking upskirt pictures in 2010, right? Like, the fact that
[1:02:16] Speaker 1: this was encrypted isn't why he didn't get caught for
[1:02:19] Speaker 1: so long. He didn't get caught for so long because
[1:02:21] Speaker 1: no one was really looking to find guys like him
[1:02:23] Speaker 1: doing this. Really?
[1:02:26] Speaker 3: Because they didn't see it as that big of a thing,
[1:02:28] Speaker 3: I really think.
[1:02:30] Speaker 1: Yeah, it was not an encryption thing that let this
[1:02:32] Speaker 1: all occur, right? I will always fight against any attempt
[1:02:36] Speaker 1: by governments to criminalize the use of encrypted messaging as
[1:02:39] Speaker 1: a whole. It is incredibly poisonous to let scum like
[1:02:43] Speaker 1: Durov become the face of that movement. So I simply
[1:02:46] Speaker 1: do not defend this guy. He was very well aware
[1:02:49] Speaker 1: of what he was involved in. More to the point,
[1:02:51] Speaker 1: encryption does not require people to build services that enable
[1:02:54] Speaker 1: sexual abuse in the trading of child pornography. Criminals use Signal, too,
[1:02:58] Speaker 1: for instance, for some bad things, but in the same
[1:03:01] Speaker 1: way that a rapist might use a smartphone to, like,
[1:03:03] Speaker 1: document his crimes or whatever, the smartphone isn't responsible for that.
[1:03:07] Speaker 1: It just had a camera, right? There's nothing about Signal
[1:03:10] Speaker 1: that specifically encourages or makes it easy to operate in
[1:03:13] Speaker 1: a legal business, whereas both Coco and Telegram... Choices were
[1:03:16] Speaker 1: made not to moderate certain things. Choices were made to
[1:03:19] Speaker 1: profit off of banning people for breaking the law in
[1:03:22] Speaker 1: Coco's case. Choices were made to make these services better
[1:03:27] Speaker 1: places for people to organize and plan these kind of crimes.
[1:03:31] Speaker 3: Right.
[1:03:31] Speaker 1: And that's very different from a dumb pipe that just
[1:03:34] Speaker 1: happens to be encrypted. Right. And again, encryption is not
[1:03:37] Speaker 1: the fucking issue here. Neither is free speech.
[1:03:39] Speaker 3: I just hate how it's so easy to conflate these things.
[1:03:42] Speaker 2: And as you said, like make people who are breaking
[1:03:45] Speaker 2: the law and profiting off of horrific illegal content, the
[1:03:49] Speaker 2: face of, you know, what, like, I don't know. I
[1:03:52] Speaker 2: just feel like these con in these conversations, we have
[1:03:54] Speaker 2: kind of lost our way and it's so easy to turn,
[1:03:58] Speaker 2: you know, advocating for the importance of free speech into, oh,
[1:04:05] Speaker 2: we should be protecting people who are counting on us
[1:04:08] Speaker 2: using that banner to continue to profit from criminal behavior.
[1:04:11] Speaker 3: Right.
[1:04:14] Speaker 1: Number one, I don't think you really necessarily need new
[1:04:16] Speaker 1: laws and new restrictions on the internet to stop these people.
[1:04:20] Speaker 1: What you do need is an understanding that they're doing
[1:04:23] Speaker 1: it and a willingness to go after them and prosecute
[1:04:26] Speaker 1: them and look into these. A lot of these communities
[1:04:29] Speaker 1: are very easy to just wind up in a chat
[1:04:31] Speaker 1: room where people are selling these rape drugs. It's not hard.
[1:04:34] Speaker 1: Law enforcement could be going after this stuff if they
[1:04:36] Speaker 1: really cared, right? They don't. They chose not to give
[1:04:40] Speaker 1: because it's probably more work than they want to do
[1:04:42] Speaker 1: because they're fucking lazy assholes. But not enough of them
[1:04:44] Speaker 1: focus on this shit. Like you don't need new laws.
[1:04:47] Speaker 1: You don't need anything like that. What you do need
[1:04:50] Speaker 1: is authorities to care about stopping this.
[1:04:53] Speaker 5: Yep.
[1:04:54] Speaker 1: That's, I guess, my answer.
[1:04:56] Speaker 5: I agree.
[1:04:57] Speaker 1: That was not directed at you, Bridget. Sorry. No. That
[1:05:00] Speaker 1: was directed like a hypothetical person arguing with me.
[1:05:04] Speaker 3: Yes. I agree with you.
[1:05:07] Speaker 2: Again, it's an issue that you find yourself on the
[1:05:12] Speaker 2: opposite end of people. It's an issue that you find
[1:05:16] Speaker 2: strange bedfellows and you're arguing against things that you can't believe.
[1:05:22] Speaker 3: That you have to make this argument, I guess is
[1:05:24] Speaker 3: what I'm saying.
[1:05:25] Speaker 1: Yeah. Again, you can't divorce your concern for freedom of
[1:05:30] Speaker 1: speech from Like the practical political realities and the practical
[1:05:34] Speaker 1: political realities that every time people hear about shit like this,
[1:05:38] Speaker 1: it makes them potentially more willing to support these shitty laws.
[1:05:41] Speaker 1: So like if– again, if you actually– if you care
[1:05:43] Speaker 1: about freedom of speech and encryption and stuff, you shouldn't
[1:05:46] Speaker 1: be like defending fucking Pavel Durov or Isaac Steadle. No.
[1:05:50] Speaker 1: What you should be doing is– fucking getting livid at
[1:05:53] Speaker 1: the fact that more isn't being done to stop these
[1:05:56] Speaker 1: kinds of crimes that are already illegal and that are
[1:05:59] Speaker 1: being committed very obviously in the open in a lot
[1:06:02] Speaker 1: of cases, right? More could be done to scare these
[1:06:05] Speaker 1: motherfuckers and the less like people getting away with this
[1:06:09] Speaker 1: endangers all of our freedom, right? Not, and again, I don't,
[1:06:13] Speaker 1: I mean, to distract from their victims by saying that.
[1:06:15] Speaker 1: But that's my response to people who try to bring
[1:06:17] Speaker 1: up the fucking free speech issue. It's the same thing
[1:06:20] Speaker 1: I feel about guns, honestly, that like, OK, but like
[1:06:22] Speaker 1: if you believe firearms should be legal, then you should
[1:06:24] Speaker 1: be really fucking pissed at like bad gun manufacturer advertisements
[1:06:29] Speaker 1: that are like encouraging fucked up shit. You should be
[1:06:31] Speaker 1: pissed at. uh gun shops that are selling like illegally
[1:06:35] Speaker 1: or that are selling like moving shit across the fucking
[1:06:38] Speaker 1: border like you should be really angry at a lot
[1:06:41] Speaker 1: of things that happen in the firearms industry that enable
[1:06:44] Speaker 1: all of the fucking horrible violence that is part of
[1:06:47] Speaker 1: why people want to ban guns right like if you
[1:06:50] Speaker 1: actually care about that right your issue should not be
[1:06:53] Speaker 1: with defending the blank right of someone to like sell
[1:06:56] Speaker 1: firearms to a cartel or a 15 year old Your
[1:06:59] Speaker 1: issue should be with the people doing that who are
[1:07:01] Speaker 1: endangering your rights as well as endangering other people's lives, right?
[1:07:06] Speaker 1: Not to put the lives above the rights or anything
[1:07:09] Speaker 1: like that. I never get the argument that you should
[1:07:13] Speaker 1: focus entirely on fucking defending the founder of a website
[1:07:19] Speaker 1: that enabled a bunch of rapes because you care about
[1:07:22] Speaker 1: free speech. If you care about free speech, you should
[1:07:24] Speaker 1: care about stopping those rapists.
[1:07:26] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[1:07:27] Speaker 1: That's where I land, I guess.
[1:07:29] Speaker 5: I have one final thought, and it's just that, wow,
[1:07:34] Speaker 5: is she a brave woman.
[1:07:36] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[1:07:38] Speaker 1: Yep.
[1:07:39] Speaker 5: And I'm sorry the system failed you and the amount
[1:07:45] Speaker 5: of people that she's helped by being so courageous.
[1:07:49] Speaker 1: Yeah. She's an incredible person. I do. I should probably end.
[1:07:54] Speaker 1: There is some up. lifting stuff in her memoir a
[1:07:57] Speaker 1: hymn to life that i should note which is that
[1:08:00] Speaker 1: uh i mean there's some fucked up and some good
[1:08:02] Speaker 1: stuff mostly like she so she obviously was left a
[1:08:05] Speaker 1: lot of financial issues she divorced her husband uh some
[1:08:09] Speaker 1: of her in-laws like the parents of one of the
[1:08:11] Speaker 1: people one of her kids married they had like a
[1:08:13] Speaker 1: really nice house on an island that was like a
[1:08:16] Speaker 1: vacation getaway because they were more affluent she was like
[1:08:19] Speaker 1: staying there for a while and And she met a
[1:08:21] Speaker 1: man who had just retired there. He had initially, he
[1:08:25] Speaker 1: had bought a retirement house with his wife there. And
[1:08:27] Speaker 1: then she contracted a horrible illness and died very suddenly,
[1:08:30] Speaker 1: right as they're about to start their retirement. And he
[1:08:33] Speaker 1: and Giselle met and fell in love and lived together.
[1:08:37] Speaker 1: At least the last I checked. Um, so I mean, that's,
[1:08:42] Speaker 1: I guess the good thing is that her life has
[1:08:44] Speaker 1: gone on. She's continued to find happiness. Um, she even
[1:08:49] Speaker 1: writes in the book that like, I understand why this
[1:08:50] Speaker 1: has led some people to just like hate men in general,
[1:08:52] Speaker 1: this story, but that's not the effect it had on me.
[1:08:55] Speaker 1: In part, she has two sons, right?
[1:08:57] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[1:08:59] Speaker 1: So, that's, her life goes on. She's not a victim
[1:09:04] Speaker 1: as a, that's not a, I mean, she was a
[1:09:06] Speaker 1: victim of a crime, but she is not a victim
[1:09:08] Speaker 1: as a fundamental nature of her personality or character. She's
[1:09:12] Speaker 1: an incredibly resilient and very brave woman who I hope
[1:09:16] Speaker 1: continues to be happy afterwards.
[1:09:18] Speaker 3: A true survivor.
[1:09:19] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[1:09:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, in the sexual violence community, we often don't use
[1:09:25] Speaker 2: the word victim.
[1:09:25] Speaker 3: It's survivor.
[1:09:26] Speaker 1: Yeah, survivor.
[1:09:28] Speaker 2: People go on to live full lives, and their life
[1:09:33] Speaker 2: does not end with what happened to them. That is
[1:09:35] Speaker 2: not the only thing that they are. No. It's a
[1:09:37] Speaker 2: measure of their entire life. It can feel that way
[1:09:39] Speaker 2: when you're experiencing sexual violence, for sure.
[1:09:42] Speaker 1: Yeah, certainly while you're in court. Yeah.
[1:09:46] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[1:09:47] Speaker 1: Anyway, that's what I had this week, everybody.
[1:09:50] Speaker 5: Okay.
[1:09:51] Speaker 1: Sorry. Bye.
[1:09:56] Speaker 5: Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media.
[1:09:59] Speaker 5: For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com.
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