# Part One: The Origins of Terror in Palestine

An episode of [Behind the Bastards](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1373812661), 4 Aug 2026, 1 h 05 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/e5f91208-cc7e-4726-a312-ae280140ad11/f946715e-8e1c-4009-a984-b49c00136d6f/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=d64f756d-6d5e-4fae-b24f-ae280140ad36

Robert sits down with Dr. Dana al-Kurd to discuss how things started going wrong in Palestine, and how terror first came to the Holy Land. Sources: https://www.jpost.com/blogs/my-nation-lives/this-week-in-israeli-history-operation-moses-raful-eitan-and-the-patria-disaster-435421 https://www.972mag.com/the-first-political-murder-in-jewish-palestine-lessons-of-intolerance/ https://archive.is/Rdwny#selection-1141.0-1141.321 https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/1654849 https://rense.com/general76/zan.htm https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/40692 https://anumuseum.org.il/blog/patria/ https://waqarahmed.org/menachem-begin-israeli-terrorist-who-became-prime-minister-won-nobel-peace-prize https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/10023/24114/hoffman_2020_swi_bombingkingdavid_aam.pdf?sequence=1 https://www.mideastjournal.org/post/jewish-arab-relations-a-deep-dive-into-the-history https://www.972mag.com/before-zionism-the-shared-life-of-jews-and-palestinians/ https://jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-arabs-in-palestine https://palestinenexus.com/articles/conflict-palestine-bw-jews-arabs-zionism https://thecjn.ca/news/jews-muslims-coexisted-peacefully/ https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/jabotinsky-vladimir/?format=pdf https://www.jstor.org/stable/41857736?seq=19wwf See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: Al Zone Media.
[0:05] Speaker 2: Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast about the
[0:09] Speaker 2: very worst everything you don't know about the worst people
[0:11] Speaker 2: in all history. It's kind of the initial point, but
[0:14] Speaker 2: we also go back to our name when looking at
[0:16] Speaker 2: kind of the remit of this show, and one of
[0:18] Speaker 2: the things we try to do is get like behind
[0:21] Speaker 2: the bastards, including like the very worst people in the
[0:23] Speaker 2: world today. And we've already done an episode on Benjamin
[0:26] Speaker 2: nettan Yahoo prior to October seventh and kind of this
[0:30] Speaker 2: most recent escalation into genocide and Gaza, and I didn't
[0:35] Speaker 2: really feel like, you know, returning to net Yahoo well,
[0:39] Speaker 2: was kind of think this show does best covering like
[0:41] Speaker 2: things that are currently happening and like breaking news. That's
[0:44] Speaker 2: kind of why we've started. It could happen here. Yeah, yeah,
[0:47] Speaker 2: and I'm among other things in the last year. So
[0:49] Speaker 2: one of the best things we've done there is bring
[0:51] Speaker 2: on doctor Donna al Kurd to help us report on
[0:54] Speaker 2: and you know, not just stuff in Palestine, but you've
[0:57] Speaker 2: done a lot of really good work for us data
[0:59] Speaker 2: and so I want to bring you on as a
[1:01] Speaker 2: guest and talk about a subject that I think is
[1:03] Speaker 2: in your wheelhouse and also really important today. But thank
[1:06] Speaker 2: you for coming back.
[1:08] Speaker 1: You should recall you doctor Elker the whole episode.
[1:12] Speaker 3: No, doctor, please don't do that. It's super awkward.
[1:15] Speaker 2: It is cool, I mean, yeah, but first off, have
[1:19] Speaker 2: you been and yeah, pluggables and stuff.
[1:22] Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I'm I'm doing. I'm existing. You know, many
[1:28] Speaker 4: Bostonians are right now. But I'm happy that I edited
[1:33] Speaker 4: this handbook called the Handbook on Arab Authoritarianism that just
[1:37] Speaker 4: came out and it's open access, and so that has
[1:40] Speaker 4: been a shining thing for me right now. So yeah,
[1:43] Speaker 4: thanks for asking.
[1:44] Speaker 2: Oh that sounds great. I can't wait to read that.
[1:46] Speaker 2: I've been I've been doing some. I for one of
[1:48] Speaker 2: the things I read for this book, which is kind
[1:50] Speaker 2: of about like the birth of terrorism in Palestine in
[1:52] Speaker 2: the Holy Land prior to the knock, but prior to
[1:55] Speaker 2: the establishment of the state of Israel. This episode, if
[1:58] Speaker 2: you had like an education like me, because I remember
[2:00] Speaker 2: as a kid, most of what I was told about
[2:03] Speaker 2: the series of conflicts there was that like number one,
[2:06] Speaker 2: it's been going on for thousands of years, that's always
[2:08] Speaker 2: been happening. And number two that it's like primarily religious
[2:12] Speaker 2: and always has been primarily religious. In dimension that like,
[2:16] Speaker 2: those are the two truths about it, and kind of
[2:18] Speaker 2: when people are saying that, one thing they're kind of
[2:20] Speaker 2: tacitly saying, I think is that like Muslims and Jews
[2:23] Speaker 2: can't live together, right, Like that is they don't tend
[2:25] Speaker 2: to directly say that, But that's what you're meant to believe.
[2:28] Speaker 2: If those two first things are true, right, and that
[2:31] Speaker 2: they're both this is news to you, and that they're
[2:33] Speaker 2: both they can't live.
[2:34] Speaker 3: Together, but they're also both crazy exactly.
[2:35] Speaker 2: Right, right, And none of that's true to the conflict.
[2:38] Speaker 2: Right for one thing this you could I mean, yeah,
[2:40] Speaker 2: obviously stuff that happened in ancient times is relevant for
[2:44] Speaker 2: a variety of reasons, just because history is never you know,
[2:47] Speaker 2: discreete right, But if you go back to like eighteen eighty,
[2:51] Speaker 2: you can get a really good grounding and everything that's
[2:53] Speaker 2: really relevant to the conflict today. Right. I mean, maybe
[2:57] Speaker 2: you disagree with that. If so, I yield to your experience,
[2:59] Speaker 2: But that's kind have been sort of what I've come
[3:02] Speaker 2: to feel like kind of reading into it that that's
[3:04] Speaker 2: you really that's a really good grounding and kind of
[3:07] Speaker 2: everything relevant to the to the day starts in the
[3:09] Speaker 2: late eighteen hundreds, Like it's not that ancient.
[3:11] Speaker 4: Right, No, No, absolutely, Like if I'm always anytime I
[3:15] Speaker 4: talk about this or any time I teach about this,
[3:17] Speaker 4: Like my main takeaway is like, this is a very
[3:19] Speaker 4: recent conflict and recent in the grand scheme of human history,
[3:24] Speaker 4: and it's about nationalism.
[3:26] Speaker 3: It's about it really boils.
[3:27] Speaker 2: Down, it's about nationalism. And yeah, and one of the
[3:31] Speaker 2: important things to understand is that prior to the outbreak,
[3:33] Speaker 2: I mean, prior to a lot of things, I mean,
[3:35] Speaker 2: Zion isn't being one of them, but nationalism because it's
[3:38] Speaker 2: I mean, Arab nationalism and also European nationalism are deeply
[3:41] Speaker 2: tied to all of this. Among other things, Jews and
[3:45] Speaker 2: Muslims and Christians got along reasonably well in Palestine for not,
[3:48] Speaker 2: you know, never, Like no multicultural society is ever completely
[3:53] Speaker 2: devoid of conflict, right, but there's a lot of I mean,
[3:55] Speaker 2: one of our sources for this is a book called
[3:57] Speaker 2: Lives in Common that really goes into how different things
[4:00] Speaker 2: used to be there and how the fundamental conflict has
[4:02] Speaker 2: nothing to do with faith. Right, So I wanted to
[4:05] Speaker 2: talk about like that, how how we got to kind
[4:08] Speaker 2: of the point of no return, before the estab before
[4:11] Speaker 2: you know, nineteen forty eight, and before the Nakama, right, Like,
[4:14] Speaker 2: how did things and how did the Ottoman Empire and
[4:16] Speaker 2: the British Mandate kind of help push things along to
[4:21] Speaker 2: the point of no return?
[4:22] Speaker 4: Right?
[4:22] Speaker 2: So that's I think what we're going to talk about
[4:24] Speaker 2: this week, because yeah, that's just I was initially planning
[4:28] Speaker 2: to do episodes a little bit different, probably on Monocam
[4:30] Speaker 2: Bigan or on Vladimir Yebatinski, But it just it seemed
[4:34] Speaker 2: to make more sense to cover it this way, in
[4:37] Speaker 2: part because I actually didn't feel like just focusing on
[4:40] Speaker 2: like one guy and trying to like sort out like
[4:43] Speaker 2: how things went so wrong through a single It just
[4:45] Speaker 2: didn't seem like the right way to do this.
[4:47] Speaker 3: Now, this is more comprehensive, I would say, yeah.
[4:50] Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll see. So the story that I'm going to
[4:59] Speaker 2: tell this week starts in the eighteen eighties and ends
[5:01] Speaker 2: around nineteen forty with a major terrorist bombing that kind
[5:04] Speaker 2: of sets the stage for a lot of stuff going
[5:07] Speaker 2: on today. But to start, we need to go back
[5:10] Speaker 2: to Palestine during the Ottoman era, and when we talk
[5:13] Speaker 2: about this period, the first thing I need to get
[5:15] Speaker 2: across is that people living in Palestine during like the
[5:18] Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds and even the early nineteen hundreds would not
[5:20] Speaker 2: have considered Palestinian a useful identity within the territory, because
[5:24] Speaker 2: if you're like Muslim or Christian or Jewish, you're still
[5:26] Speaker 2: a Palaestin. Like no one, like someone identifying themselves a
[5:29] Speaker 2: Palestinian would not tell you what they believed, what community
[5:33] Speaker 2: they were a part of, necessarily, right in like eighteen
[5:36] Speaker 2: seventy you know, yeah.
[5:38] Speaker 4: I mean these were Ottoman provinces. They happened to be there. Yeah,
[5:41] Speaker 4: different communities happened to be.
[5:42] Speaker 2: There, Yeah, exactly. And you know, in eighteen eighty or so,
[5:46] Speaker 2: the majority of residents in any city in Palestine would
[5:49] Speaker 2: have identified as Arab, including most Jews. And this is
[5:53] Speaker 2: not a category that you see a lot of people
[5:55] Speaker 2: claim today Arab Jew, right, But for a very long
[5:58] Speaker 2: time there were large community of Arab Jews spread throughout
[6:01] Speaker 2: the Middle East and North Africa, And in some ways,
[6:04] Speaker 2: these episodes are the story of why many of those
[6:06] Speaker 2: communities ceased to exist, right, Because that's also very tied
[6:10] Speaker 2: up in the State of Israel and the wars that
[6:12] Speaker 2: happened as a result of that all that stuff. Right,
[6:14] Speaker 2: this is one of the communities that kind of, in
[6:16] Speaker 2: a number of reasons not purely ceases to exist, but
[6:21] Speaker 2: it also gets transmuted. People stop identifying that way, right.
[6:25] Speaker 2: And there's when we talk about Arab Jews, there's a
[6:27] Speaker 2: really it seems to be kind of muddled distinction between
[6:30] Speaker 2: that and like Sephardic Jews, where a lot of Sephardic
[6:33] Speaker 2: Jews would have considered themselves Arab Jews and spoken Arabic primarily,
[6:38] Speaker 2: but it kind of varied, right, that was more common,
[6:41] Speaker 2: as I understand, And like Hebron where the majority of
[6:43] Speaker 2: the Jewish community and Hebron in this period was extremely
[6:45] Speaker 2: Arabic and would have very rarely spoken kind of the
[6:48] Speaker 2: language that most Sephardics spoke, which is Spanish derived. We'll
[6:51] Speaker 2: talk about that, yes, Ladino, right, it was noted like
[6:55] Speaker 2: in Hebron, they would only use Ladino and songs that
[6:58] Speaker 2: like occasionally, right if there was like people in who
[7:01] Speaker 2: might have been from like another city or something during
[7:03] Speaker 2: like a religious celebration, right, Whereas in Jerusalem Ladino was
[7:07] Speaker 2: a lot more common. Right, So you know, stuff like that,
[7:09] Speaker 2: It is kind of a blurry distinction between Sephardic and
[7:12] Speaker 2: Arab Jews, and there's this.
[7:14] Speaker 4: Category also ms Rahim that kind of slumps Arab and
[7:20] Speaker 4: Middle Eastern Jews from Iran and in Arab countries kind
[7:24] Speaker 4: of all together, that becomes kind of a catch all term,
[7:28] Speaker 4: I think, especially after the creation of the State of Israel.
[7:31] Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and I'm not the best. I'm trying to
[7:33] Speaker 2: kind of hopefully not screw this up too much. These
[7:35] Speaker 2: are very complicated, you know when we kind of talk
[7:38] Speaker 2: about how these the terms and how identity has shifted
[7:42] Speaker 2: in these communities over this period of time, Like it's
[7:44] Speaker 2: more than we'll totally get into today. But you need
[7:46] Speaker 2: to understand that, like, among other things, when you're talking
[7:50] Speaker 2: about the eighteen eighties in Palestine, when most Palestinians were
[7:54] Speaker 2: be they Arab, you know, or Muslim or Christian or
[7:56] Speaker 2: Jewish or whatever, if they were getting angry at a
[7:59] Speaker 2: foreign power in those days, that power was the Ottomans, right,
[8:02] Speaker 2: Like that was the enemy for a lot of basically everybody,
[8:05] Speaker 2: right or it was like the ruler that you just
[8:09] Speaker 2: kind of like assumed, well, you probably can't do any
[8:12] Speaker 2: better than this, right, this is just life.
[8:14] Speaker 3: You know, you are upset about taxes, you're upset about.
[8:16] Speaker 2: The drugs, right, right, exactly exactly. And also the Ottomans
[8:20] Speaker 2: are Turks, right, the rulers are foreigners, They're not Arab,
[8:23] Speaker 2: and you know, the empire is a foreign one that's
[8:25] Speaker 2: holding a lot of arabsy it's holding Arabs in some
[8:28] Speaker 2: form of bondage, right, And obviously a lot of you know,
[8:31] Speaker 2: Jewish people are not like the Jewish religion is not
[8:34] Speaker 2: is also especially in parts of the you know, it
[8:37] Speaker 2: varies treatment in different parts of the Ottoman Empire, but
[8:40] Speaker 2: they're not considered equal under the law, so they and
[8:43] Speaker 2: also Christians have a lot of issues with the Ottomans.
[8:45] Speaker 2: But Arab nationalists, which are increasingly becoming a thing in
[8:48] Speaker 2: the late eighteen hundreds, are also really angry at the Ottomans.
[8:51] Speaker 2: Everybody's pretty pissed at the Ottomans. They're not a good empire,
[8:54] Speaker 2: especially by this point in time, right, Like things aren't
[8:57] Speaker 2: going They're the sick man of Europe is kind of
[8:59] Speaker 2: the term people use. So in addition to being foreigners
[9:02] Speaker 2: who are drafting people and taxing them, they're also just
[9:05] Speaker 2: not holding up super well, right, And it's kind of
[9:08] Speaker 2: increasingly obvious to everybody. But one of the things the
[9:12] Speaker 2: existence of the Ottomans does is like a ruler over
[9:15] Speaker 2: all the different religious groups and ethnic groups, is that
[9:18] Speaker 2: it mitigates a degree of internal conflict because everybody kind
[9:21] Speaker 2: of has this foreign power that they all see as
[9:24] Speaker 2: like the asshole, right, and it does kind of make
[9:27] Speaker 2: people fight less with each other. I do think that's
[9:29] Speaker 2: a little bit of what's going on in this period.
[9:31] Speaker 2: I think there's some solid area that comes from everyone
[9:33] Speaker 2: being angry at the same foreign power. Right. So Yakav Yahoshua,
[9:41] Speaker 2: a Jewish resident of Jerusalem in this time and a
[9:44] Speaker 2: future Israeli, wrote of this period quote, the residential courtyards
[9:48] Speaker 2: of the Jews and Muslims were common. We were like
[9:50] Speaker 2: one family. We were all friends. Our mothers poured out
[9:53] Speaker 2: their hearts to Muslim women, and they poured out their
[9:54] Speaker 2: hearts to our mothers. The Muslim women accustomed themselves to
[9:57] Speaker 2: speaking the Ladino language. This is his recollection of what
[10:01] Speaker 2: life was like in this period of time, and he's
[10:03] Speaker 2: not recalling any kind of religious conflict really, Like that
[10:08] Speaker 2: doesn't seem to be certainly his primary memory of this time.
[10:11] Speaker 2: It was a lot of solidarity and it's accurate to
[10:15] Speaker 2: note that. And you run across a couple quotes like
[10:17] Speaker 2: this in Lives in Common that some Arab Muslims would
[10:21] Speaker 2: see Arab Jews or Sephardic Jews as one of the
[10:23] Speaker 2: terms I've heard is like inferior locals. And they don't
[10:25] Speaker 2: mean that in they racial or religious sense. They mean that,
[10:27] Speaker 2: and then they have not been here as long. They're locals,
[10:30] Speaker 2: but they haven't been here as long. And that's true
[10:32] Speaker 2: for a lot of these, especially like Sephardic Jewish communities,
[10:35] Speaker 2: because you can tell this by the fact that they
[10:37] Speaker 2: speak Ladino, right, which is derived from Old Spanish. Because
[10:40] Speaker 2: many Sephardics were the remnants of the Iberian Jewish community
[10:43] Speaker 2: who'd been exiled. And one of the things this actually
[10:46] Speaker 2: does is there's a lot of solidarity between some of
[10:49] Speaker 2: these Sephardic Jewish communities and some Arab Muslim communities who
[10:53] Speaker 2: are descendants themselves of the Arabs that were kicked out
[10:56] Speaker 2: of Iberia. And there's this kind of belief pretty wide
[10:59] Speaker 2: spread that some of these Sephardic communities have done a
[11:02] Speaker 2: better job or the best job of maintaining some of
[11:05] Speaker 2: like the musical and artistic culture of that you know,
[11:09] Speaker 2: community that was largely driven entirely driven out by the Christians. Right,
[11:14] Speaker 2: So there's this really deep and we I don't think
[11:16] Speaker 2: these relationships exist very much anymore, but this very deep
[11:20] Speaker 2: relationship between these two different religious groups who are both
[11:23] Speaker 2: exiles from the same place and wound up in Palestine,
[11:25] Speaker 2: which I actually just wasn't aware that that was a
[11:28] Speaker 2: dimension of life in that period of time. I find
[11:31] Speaker 2: it really interesting, especially when you think of how far back,
[11:35] Speaker 2: you know, the expulsion of Muslims and Jews from Iberia
[11:38] Speaker 2: is from this point in time. We're talking hundreds of years,
[11:40] Speaker 2: and these are still really meaningful community relationships. I just
[11:44] Speaker 2: find that fascinating. Now, depending on the city and community,
[11:49] Speaker 2: the difference between like how these communities saw themselves and
[11:53] Speaker 2: conflicts between them would would vary and be blurry. But again,
[11:56] Speaker 2: in places like Hebrawn, the Jewish community spoke Arabic as
[11:59] Speaker 2: the first language and only occasionally included Lidno songs and
[12:02] Speaker 2: worship celebrations, right, So it did change depending on where
[12:06] Speaker 2: you were a Jewish resident of the Old City in
[12:09] Speaker 2: Jerusalem or Al Kuds during this time. Alaihu Ali Yashar
[12:13] Speaker 2: wrote that during his youth quote, we heard Arabic and
[12:16] Speaker 2: spoke it utterly, freely with our neighbors. Yakov Alazar, another resident,
[12:20] Speaker 2: recalled Muslim women and mixed religion housing in a mixed
[12:22] Speaker 2: religion housing development, volunteering to draw extra water the day
[12:25] Speaker 2: before the Sabbath so as not to disturb their Jewish neighbors.
[12:28] Speaker 2: Like you, hear a lot of stories of this, of
[12:31] Speaker 2: religion and faith that's like lived in common and like
[12:35] Speaker 2: this really kind of deeply emotionally affecting degree of religious
[12:39] Speaker 2: solidarity and even co celebration of a lot of different
[12:43] Speaker 2: religious holidays, as we'll talk about now. Before we get
[12:48] Speaker 2: into some of those more positive stories, there is another
[12:49] Speaker 2: fact of life in Palestine in like this period of time,
[12:52] Speaker 2: the eighteen eighties eighteen nineties, that we need to address,
[12:54] Speaker 2: which is that for a shockingly long time, slavery still
[12:58] Speaker 2: existed there. Right, People bought and saw old and slaved
[13:00] Speaker 2: Africans for longer than you'd expect. And this is not
[13:04] Speaker 2: just in Palestine. This is a decent chunk of the
[13:06] Speaker 2: Middle East and in North Africa. In bits in his
[13:09] Speaker 2: book Trade Yeah, yeah, And this is by the way,
[13:14] Speaker 2: slavery is practiced and utilized by Jews and Muslims and
[13:17] Speaker 2: Christians in this period of time. There's not seemed to
[13:19] Speaker 2: be a major religious difference between who is buying slaves.
[13:22] Speaker 2: It's a wealth thing if you can afford it, and
[13:24] Speaker 2: you don't have a moral issue with it. You have
[13:26] Speaker 2: slaves in this period of time, some people do, It's
[13:28] Speaker 2: not super common. Klein notes that the Old City had
[13:32] Speaker 2: a market where African girls specifically were bought and sold
[13:34] Speaker 2: that operated until eighteen eighty nine, even though the Sultan
[13:37] Speaker 2: had outlawed the trade in eighteen forty six. Per lives
[13:40] Speaker 2: in common quote, In about eighteen eighty him Aharon Valero
[13:44] Speaker 2: bought an Ethiopian girl who was around ten years old
[13:47] Speaker 2: when the central government enforced the emancipation of slaves in Jerusalem.
[13:50] Speaker 2: The girl chose to stay with Valero's family and converted
[13:52] Speaker 2: to Judaism. A few hundred descendants of these slaves still
[13:55] Speaker 2: live in the Old City, and what is called the
[13:56] Speaker 2: black or slave compound not an aspect of history that
[14:01] Speaker 2: we talk about a lot, but uh, and.
[14:03] Speaker 3: They consider themselves Palestinian today.
[14:05] Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, yea, and it's it is I have heard
[14:09] Speaker 2: this occasionally brought up in order to slander like Palestinians today,
[14:13] Speaker 2: as if it was something that only one religion did.
[14:16] Speaker 2: And as that quote makes clear, there were plenty of
[14:18] Speaker 2: Jewish slaveholders in old Palestine. It was a money and
[14:22] Speaker 2: a morals thing. If you were okay with it, you
[14:23] Speaker 2: did it, you know. Coming into the eighteen eighties, the
[14:28] Speaker 2: Jewish population in Palestine numbered around twenty five thousand, and
[14:32] Speaker 2: Zionism as a political movement is not really There is
[14:35] Speaker 2: some immigration from Europe, but it's not really a major
[14:39] Speaker 2: political movement until like eighteen eighty two. And this is
[14:42] Speaker 2: when you see a bunch of smaller Jewish organizations in Europe,
[14:45] Speaker 2: some which had been sending migrants to establish farms or
[14:48] Speaker 2: might move to cities in Palestine for a period of
[14:50] Speaker 2: time before this, start to coordinate on like a large
[14:53] Speaker 2: scale right. And that's part of the story, but not everything,
[14:56] Speaker 2: because why is eighteen eighty one eighteen eighty two when
[14:59] Speaker 2: this really gets going. Well, there's a lot of shit
[15:01] Speaker 2: going on in Europe that makes it seem like a
[15:04] Speaker 2: really good idea for a lot of Jewish people to
[15:06] Speaker 2: get the fuck out of places like Russia. A big
[15:09] Speaker 2: fuel for this wave of migration comes in the wake
[15:11] Speaker 2: of the assassination of Tsar Alexander the Second by anarchists,
[15:14] Speaker 2: Russia blamed the Jews, as they usually did, and a
[15:16] Speaker 2: program followed in the city of Kirovorad. And this is like,
[15:21] Speaker 2: this isn't basically modern day Azerbaijan, if I'm understanding it,
[15:25] Speaker 2: I think it's generally a ZERI is like the region
[15:29] Speaker 2: that this is like attributed to. I'm not sure specifically
[15:32] Speaker 2: what country now, but like that's kind of the area
[15:34] Speaker 2: this is occurring in. But it spreads out of kind
[15:37] Speaker 2: of that community to the entire pale of settlement. And
[15:40] Speaker 2: there's like a year and a half or two of
[15:42] Speaker 2: horrific violence against Jews in a large portion, yeah, massive,
[15:48] Speaker 2: And this kind of it leads to the Tsar passing
[15:50] Speaker 2: what are called the May Laws in eighteen eighty two,
[15:53] Speaker 2: which further restrict where Jews could go and what jobs
[15:55] Speaker 2: they can have. And it makes a lot of people
[15:58] Speaker 2: want to leave. But the Oxford Encyclopedia of the History
[16:01] Speaker 2: of Terrorism it does something else too. This also expedited
[16:05] Speaker 2: the consolidation of Jewish nationalism. The most significant essay of
[16:08] Speaker 2: the time was Auto Emancipation by Leon Pinsker, in which
[16:11] Speaker 2: he advocated the idea of self determination for the Jewish
[16:14] Speaker 2: people in their ancient homeland. Now it's worth talking about
[16:18] Speaker 2: all this and talking about what's happening in Russia as
[16:21] Speaker 2: how it helps to fuel Zionism. But it's also worth
[16:23] Speaker 2: noting very few of the people who are fleeing Russia
[16:27] Speaker 2: and other Jews who are fleeing Russia and other Eastern
[16:29] Speaker 2: European countries in this period choose to go to Palestine.
[16:32] Speaker 2: That's about of the huge number of refugees. By the way,
[16:35] Speaker 2: a lot of Jews leave Russia in the period immediately
[16:38] Speaker 2: after eighteen eighty one ety two, about three percent of
[16:41] Speaker 2: them immigrate to Palestine, right, And this first wave, by
[16:46] Speaker 2: the way, it's both not big and also a lot
[16:48] Speaker 2: of them don't stay. Right. Of that three percent of
[16:50] Speaker 2: refugees who come into Palestine as significant, some people say most.
[16:54] Speaker 2: Some sources say most leave pretty soon after because it's
[16:57] Speaker 2: like a pretty different climate than Russia. You know, lot
[17:00] Speaker 2: of people who are used to growing up there maybe
[17:03] Speaker 2: move to Palestine. They're like, oh, I can't handle this
[17:06] Speaker 2: is just yeah, it's not right. New York's way easier, right,
[17:10] Speaker 2: or somewhere else, you know, because it's hard, and it's
[17:13] Speaker 2: hard to farm in the desert, right, Like it's not
[17:16] Speaker 2: the easiest place in the world, and there's not a
[17:18] Speaker 2: massive amount that's going to because one of the things
[17:20] Speaker 2: that causes problems is that some of these refugees who
[17:23] Speaker 2: do stay, these early Zionists, a lot most of them
[17:25] Speaker 2: settle in cities, and a lot become very integrated, but
[17:28] Speaker 2: many settle in the country and start farms, or small
[17:31] Speaker 2: numbers settle in the country and start farms. But even
[17:33] Speaker 2: though it's not a lot of them, because resources are scarce,
[17:36] Speaker 2: and because you know, at this point, by the time
[17:39] Speaker 2: you've had an area that's been farmed and you know,
[17:43] Speaker 2: peopled as long as Palestine has, there's not just a
[17:45] Speaker 2: bunch of like good land that nobody is using, right.
[17:48] Speaker 4: And they don't understand like indigenous farming. Like they're not
[17:51] Speaker 4: talking to the locals. They're really not adjusting well.
[17:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, they're not adjusting well. And there are conflicts, there's
[17:58] Speaker 2: you know, and in this period, theolence, I don't see
[18:01] Speaker 2: a lot of reports about it being like hugely generally
[18:02] Speaker 2: hugely serious. It's mostly like petty theft and property damage, right,
[18:08] Speaker 2: and you know, there's some complaints from some of these
[18:10] Speaker 2: Jewish farmers to the Automan authorities, but obviously the Automan
[18:12] Speaker 2: authorities aren't going to take their complaints seriously, not that
[18:15] Speaker 2: they take a lot of complaint. The Ottoman Empire not
[18:17] Speaker 2: great at addressing the complaints of its people, right, They
[18:21] Speaker 2: certainly don't care about these these like Zionist immigrants, right,
[18:24] Speaker 2: they're the Ottomans in eighteen eighty. Yeah, So from these
[18:29] Speaker 2: initial concerns over security arose the first organized Jewish defense
[18:33] Speaker 2: group in Palestine, which is called bar Giora and Bargiora initial. Ultimately,
[18:38] Speaker 2: I don't know if it becomes the hashimor or it's
[18:40] Speaker 2: more accurate to say the Hashimer is kind of a
[18:42] Speaker 2: spin off of bar Giora, and then the Hashimer obviously
[18:45] Speaker 2: gives way to the Haganah. The Haganah becomes the IDF.
[18:48] Speaker 2: You know, it's you see kind of how things go there.
[18:51] Speaker 2: But initially bar Giora and the Hashimer they are like
[18:55] Speaker 2: left wing organizations because the primary organizing kind of impetus
[18:59] Speaker 2: behind them are these Jewish labor foot federations, and a
[19:02] Speaker 2: lot of these had started with people kind of organizing
[19:04] Speaker 2: their communities back in the old countries and sometimes organizing
[19:08] Speaker 2: like self defense in those communities from the Bagram back
[19:10] Speaker 2: in the Old country. And so some of those people
[19:12] Speaker 2: who make it over to Palestine, and these are generally
[19:14] Speaker 2: like leftists, initially start forming these like self defense groups
[19:19] Speaker 2: right this very first one. And it's not gonna there's
[19:22] Speaker 2: going to be like a right wing, a major right
[19:24] Speaker 2: wing swing that comes in after this. And some of
[19:25] Speaker 2: it is a reaction to the fact that a lot
[19:27] Speaker 2: of people, a lot of Zionists who are right wing,
[19:29] Speaker 2: are really fed up with a lot of these very
[19:31] Speaker 2: left wing like Zionist organizations, and there are conflicts between
[19:35] Speaker 2: them too. There's a left and a right wing. Zionism
[19:37] Speaker 2: is not like a single thing in terms of what
[19:40] Speaker 2: people mean when they say it in this period of time,
[19:42] Speaker 2: certainly not right to look at it that way. People
[19:44] Speaker 2: will mean a number of different things. That said, the
[19:49] Speaker 2: kind of major organizing center is pretty well represented by
[19:54] Speaker 2: Theodore Herzel, right, who is like the big Zionist theoretician
[19:58] Speaker 2: thinker of his day. Have heard of him quoted in
[20:01] Speaker 2: The Big Lebowski. In eighteen ninety seven, Herzel announced the
[20:04] Speaker 2: first Zionist Congress in Basil, which brought a bunch of
[20:07] Speaker 2: these smaller European Zionist groups together for the first time.
[20:10] Speaker 2: In his biography of Monocham, Begin Daniel Gordis makes it
[20:14] Speaker 2: clear that Zionism developed alongside and was influenced by other
[20:17] Speaker 2: nationalist movements, it was not separated from them. One of
[20:20] Speaker 2: the things he does, and obviously Gordis really likes Monocha
[20:23] Speaker 2: and Begin who is a very does I mean, there's
[20:25] Speaker 2: a guy among other things, there's a lot of terrorism
[20:26] Speaker 2: in life. But one thing he does point out that
[20:30] Speaker 2: I think is valuable is he has includes some quotes
[20:32] Speaker 2: from Monocham and he compares them two different like and
[20:36] Speaker 2: this is monoca like quotes that Monocham has come up
[20:39] Speaker 2: with that are like about Zionism, and he compares them
[20:42] Speaker 2: to different slogans and songs of like Polish nationalist groups
[20:46] Speaker 2: in the area Monocham would have been growing up as
[20:49] Speaker 2: a kid, and points out the similarities. And he's doing
[20:51] Speaker 2: this to point out that Zionism cannot be extricated from
[20:55] Speaker 2: Polish nationalism or German nationalism or any other kind of nationalism.
[20:59] Speaker 2: They are all yeah, exactly exactly, and they're they're influencing
[21:03] Speaker 2: each other right like at the same time, even though
[21:06] Speaker 2: a lot of these European you know, Polish and German
[21:08] Speaker 2: nationalists are also often very anti Semitic, that also influences
[21:12] Speaker 2: the development of Zionism, right.
[21:13] Speaker 4: I mean, I like to point out that, like we're
[21:15] Speaker 4: talking about a time period, like you said, where like
[21:17] Speaker 4: there are these empires and there nobody is a citizen.
[21:22] Speaker 3: Like it's not a democracy here.
[21:23] Speaker 4: Everyone is a subject in an empire, and self determination
[21:27] Speaker 4: like nationalism fills a need you know, to like protect yourself,
[21:32] Speaker 4: especially as like the international system starts to develop.
[21:34] Speaker 3: It's like we have to declare ourselves a nation.
[21:37] Speaker 4: And like argue for our people's rights otherwise we won't
[21:39] Speaker 4: be you know, kind of legible on the international stage.
[21:43] Speaker 4: We've got to you know, move in this direction. Obviously
[21:45] Speaker 4: there are lots of ills that come from that, but
[21:47] Speaker 4: we'll get to that.
[21:48] Speaker 2: I'm sure we will. And it's you know, it's also
[21:51] Speaker 2: it's hard to not to understand how if you are
[21:54] Speaker 2: a Jew in a place like Russia and you're constantly
[21:55] Speaker 2: being told you're not Russian, you're not you're part of
[21:58] Speaker 2: a different thing, you don't belong here. I can see
[22:00] Speaker 2: how some people are like, well, maybe that thing's you know, Zionism, right,
[22:04] Speaker 2: maybe that's what I should be doing of I'm not
[22:06] Speaker 2: a Russian. If I can't be here, like what else
[22:08] Speaker 2: is there? And obviously that's not the choice most people make.
[22:11] Speaker 2: Most people choose to go somewhere else for different reasons.
[22:15] Speaker 2: But like, yeah, like you have to. You can't separate
[22:18] Speaker 2: this from all of the other movements at the time.
[22:20] Speaker 2: And this is something Gordois makes a really good point
[22:22] Speaker 2: of making of writing about in his biography Up Again.
[22:25] Speaker 2: Quote the Jews, like the Poles, wanted their land back.
[22:28] Speaker 2: The Polish anthem declared, Poland is not yet lost. While
[22:30] Speaker 2: we live, we will fight with swords for all that
[22:32] Speaker 2: our enemies had taken from us. Well, the Hatikvah, the
[22:35] Speaker 2: Zionist's anthem, ended with the words our hope is not
[22:38] Speaker 2: yet lost, the hope of too millennia to be a
[22:40] Speaker 2: free people in our land. And you can see the
[22:43] Speaker 2: similarities there. And of course one of the big differences
[22:46] Speaker 2: would be the Polish people were singing were actively in
[22:49] Speaker 2: Poland right, and the European Zionists singing the Haktiva were
[22:52] Speaker 2: mostly foreign is, singing about land that other people already inhabited.
[22:55] Speaker 2: Foreigners to the land they intended to go to, right,
[22:58] Speaker 2: who had not been born and raised there. And that
[23:00] Speaker 2: is a meaningful difference, right. But you can also see
[23:03] Speaker 2: how these things are influencing each other as they evolve.
[23:06] Speaker 2: In nineteen oh four, the Kishinev Pogrom occurred in modern
[23:09] Speaker 2: day Moldova, which is of course then part of the
[23:12] Speaker 2: Russian Empire. And I think the cause of this is
[23:15] Speaker 2: the most popular paper in Kishinev publishes a series of
[23:18] Speaker 2: articles with titles like death to the Jews and Crusade
[23:21] Speaker 2: against the Hated Race. I probably don't need to read
[23:24] Speaker 2: you the text of any of those articles for you
[23:25] Speaker 2: to get the idea of like the tenor of them, right,
[23:28] Speaker 2: And this raises tensions to a fever pitch. And then
[23:31] Speaker 2: there's two murders of children. One is a young boy
[23:34] Speaker 2: and one is a young well, one is a young
[23:36] Speaker 2: girl who commits suicide. Right, And neither of these have
[23:39] Speaker 2: anything to do with the Jewish community. But there are
[23:42] Speaker 2: these long standing myths and rumors that like rabbis are
[23:45] Speaker 2: sacrificing Christian children to get their blood to do this
[23:49] Speaker 2: kind of ritual. Right, This is a huge part of it.
[23:52] Speaker 2: That's a blood life ter right, Yep, yep, massive part
[23:55] Speaker 2: of anti Semitism history, right. And so when these these
[23:59] Speaker 2: two young people up dead kind of in the same
[24:01] Speaker 2: area at the same time, there's just like an immediate
[24:03] Speaker 2: disinformation campaign to be like it's the Jews, right, And
[24:06] Speaker 2: then you get a pagram. Right, There's a massacre that
[24:09] Speaker 2: starts on Easter Sunday. I think forty to forty nine
[24:11] Speaker 2: Jewish people are murdered, hundreds more are injured, more than
[24:14] Speaker 2: fifteen hundred homes are damaged, and the pagram itself influences
[24:18] Speaker 2: a lot more people to flee than were directly impacted
[24:21] Speaker 2: by the violence. And one of the folks who was
[24:23] Speaker 2: very influenced by the kitshen of Pagram is Theodore Hertzel,
[24:26] Speaker 2: and this happens right before he dies. He doesn't live
[24:29] Speaker 2: a lot like much after this pagram, but one of
[24:32] Speaker 2: his last acts, and he had again, not a few
[24:35] Speaker 2: years before this, he had held that first Zionist Congress.
[24:38] Speaker 2: He's a major Zionist figure. But one of the things
[24:40] Speaker 2: that's interesting is he gets so scared after this Pagram
[24:43] Speaker 2: that he starts pitching something called the Uganda scheme. And
[24:46] Speaker 2: the Uganda scheme was a proposal that existed at this time,
[24:49] Speaker 2: that had been created by certain British imperial strategists who
[24:53] Speaker 2: thought it would be useful to kind of some of
[24:55] Speaker 2: the great game politics they were playing in Africa if
[24:58] Speaker 2: they could create like a semi independent Jewish community, not
[25:02] Speaker 2: quite a state, but more independent than a colony in
[25:05] Speaker 2: East Africa, Right, that could be useful to them as
[25:07] Speaker 2: like a But there were a number of reasons they
[25:08] Speaker 2: thought it would be useful, right, none of which had
[25:10] Speaker 2: to do with the welfare of anybody in Africa or
[25:13] Speaker 2: any of these Jewish people.
[25:14] Speaker 3: Right.
[25:14] Speaker 2: This is purely British power politics, right. And obviously Herzel
[25:18] Speaker 2: and a number of other people are like, well, I
[25:19] Speaker 2: guess you know, maybe this is better than nothing, right,
[25:21] Speaker 2: and it doesn't go anywhere. And a lot of Zionists
[25:24] Speaker 2: get really angry at Herzel because they are very focused
[25:27] Speaker 2: on the primacy of Palestine within Zionism, and Herzel's obviously
[25:30] Speaker 2: somewhat more flexible where he's like, look, I mean if
[25:32] Speaker 2: they're offering Uganda. And this highlights a really important reality,
[25:37] Speaker 2: which is like this whole ideology that is being developed, right,
[25:41] Speaker 2: and all of these European Jews that are being influenced
[25:43] Speaker 2: to move are under this constant paul of doom that
[25:46] Speaker 2: you know, these are the early warning signs of the Holocaust,
[25:49] Speaker 2: and so there's a lot of among other things, it
[25:52] Speaker 2: wasn't definite that the Zionist movement would land on Palestine
[25:56] Speaker 2: at this point in time. You can see that by
[25:57] Speaker 2: the fact that Herzel does embrace the Uganda Plan. And
[26:00] Speaker 2: it also shows just how chaotic things are, how scared
[26:03] Speaker 2: people are, and how little knowledge there is about like
[26:06] Speaker 2: where is a good idea to go and like what
[26:08] Speaker 2: should be done? Right, it's hard to see in this
[26:11] Speaker 2: period of time when these pagrams kind of rise up
[26:14] Speaker 2: like this natural it's not surprising that so many Jews
[26:17] Speaker 2: leave for like the United States in this period of time.
[26:19] Speaker 2: You know, it's really easy to see anyone who's paying
[26:22] Speaker 2: attention being like, well, I gotta go, Like I don't
[26:25] Speaker 2: know where I need to go, but like Eastern Europe
[26:28] Speaker 2: is not the place to be right the fuck now,
[26:30] Speaker 2: Like I'm getting on a bus to anywhere that's not
[26:33] Speaker 2: this place, right, And again, most people go to the
[26:36] Speaker 2: Americas or elsewhere in Europe. But it's not hard to
[26:39] Speaker 2: see why they're leaving so fucking fast. The first and
[26:42] Speaker 2: second waves of migration to Palestine during the Ottoman Empire
[26:45] Speaker 2: are known as the first and second Aliyah. Between nineteen
[26:48] Speaker 2: oh three and nineteen fourteen, thirty five thousand to forty
[26:51] Speaker 2: thousand Russian Jews moved to Palestine. And it's during this
[26:54] Speaker 2: time that Jewish immigrants near living near Jafa create the
[26:56] Speaker 2: neighborhoods that are going to form the nucleus of tel Aviv,
[27:00] Speaker 2: which eventually becomes the first like Hebrew city right in Palestine.
[27:04] Speaker 2: And that's what people will call it. It doesn't start,
[27:06] Speaker 2: and there's a huge like effort to deny that like
[27:09] Speaker 2: Jaffa really was a city kind of now, because the
[27:14] Speaker 2: idea that like tel Aviv was could not have come
[27:17] Speaker 2: into existence without Jaffa and without Jaffa forming a place
[27:20] Speaker 2: for a lot of these Jewish communities to start. And
[27:23] Speaker 2: I mean until nineteen thirty, tel Aviv's downtown was downtown
[27:26] Speaker 2: Jaffa basically because tel Aviv like didn't have one really like.
[27:29] Speaker 4: They needed that economic opportunity that this very thriving city represented.
[27:35] Speaker 4: And actually that's like the basis of a lot of
[27:38] Speaker 4: the tensions between them and the Palestinians.
[27:41] Speaker 3: Is the is.
[27:42] Speaker 4: I mean you already mentioned kind of the labor aspect
[27:44] Speaker 4: of it. Is like they were extremely exclusionary and they
[27:47] Speaker 4: were trying to use these economics, you know, opportunities in
[27:51] Speaker 4: a very kind of directed way. So they were, yeah,
[27:53] Speaker 4: you know, rubbing up against a lot of issues.
[27:57] Speaker 2: It's very what you said about the being exclusionary is
[27:59] Speaker 2: very accurate. A lot of these communities. Number one, they
[28:01] Speaker 2: only want to speak europe at whatever European language they
[28:03] Speaker 2: came in. They're very and they're not exclusionary just to
[28:06] Speaker 2: the Muslims. They're exclusionary to the Arab Jews and the
[28:08] Speaker 2: Sephardic Jews who had lived There's a lot of complaints,
[28:10] Speaker 2: a lot of quotes from Sephardics in Lives in Common
[28:13] Speaker 2: that are like, well, these new immigrants don't even speak Arabic,
[28:15] Speaker 2: Like I can't even talk to them. Right, So there's
[28:20] Speaker 2: the conflict is not like a Muslim Jewish conflict. It
[28:23] Speaker 2: is a native immigrant conflict, right, Like, that's what's happening here.
[28:34] Speaker 2: So Jews also came to outnumber of Muslims in Alcuds
[28:38] Speaker 2: or Jerusalem or the Holy City during this period. I
[28:40] Speaker 2: think coulds just means holy, right, yes, yeah, yes, yeah, yeah,
[28:45] Speaker 2: so I mean the Holy City, yeah yeah, the Holy Yeah.
[28:47] Speaker 2: During this period, right, and we're talking I think Jerusalem
[28:50] Speaker 2: is about thirty thousand people when that balance tips, right,
[28:53] Speaker 2: So we're not talking about a massive city, but that
[28:55] Speaker 2: change is significant and it shows kind of how these
[28:58] Speaker 2: how meaningful, these kind of numbers of people that are
[29:01] Speaker 2: coming in from Europe really have started to be Most
[29:04] Speaker 2: of the buildings in Jerusalem at this point in time,
[29:06] Speaker 2: when Jews start to outnumber Muslims there are still owned
[29:10] Speaker 2: by Arab Muslims, right, And overall immigration to Palestine remains
[29:14] Speaker 2: pretty small relative to the total population. In nineteen fourteen,
[29:18] Speaker 2: there are about eighty thousand Jews in Palestine, and obviously
[29:22] Speaker 2: that includes Sephardic and Arab, that includes, you know, all
[29:25] Speaker 2: of the other categories, not just you know, Jews who
[29:28] Speaker 2: had come in from Europe. And that means that the
[29:30] Speaker 2: Jewish population is about a tenth of the total population
[29:33] Speaker 2: of Palestine. Kind of Roughly, Jewish immigration to Palestine is
[29:37] Speaker 2: not even all that significant during this period in terms
[29:40] Speaker 2: of overall immigration, right, Like, other people are coming in
[29:43] Speaker 2: and Jews are a big chunk of that, but they're
[29:46] Speaker 2: not yet it's not yet what it's going to be, right,
[29:48] Speaker 2: And as more people of foreign origin start showing up
[29:51] Speaker 2: and buying property and come to dominate some neighborhoods, there
[29:54] Speaker 2: are a lot of native Palestinian people who start worrying.
[29:58] Speaker 2: Now many of these and these foreign Jews are often
[30:01] Speaker 2: called Ashkenazam, right, that's one of the terms for them.
[30:04] Speaker 2: They adopt. Some of them do adopt like an Arab
[30:06] Speaker 2: Jewish identity, and they do blend into these especially earlier refugues,
[30:10] Speaker 2: blend into these earlier communities and become very integrated into
[30:13] Speaker 2: these cities that are extremely multicultural in a lot of ways.
[30:17] Speaker 2: But not everyone's always willing to do that, and also
[30:19] Speaker 2: not everyone's willing to let them. Right, there are some
[30:21] Speaker 2: real differences between and what people are willing to accept
[30:25] Speaker 2: from what they see as our Jews and what they're
[30:27] Speaker 2: willing to accept from these foreigners. And I want to
[30:29] Speaker 2: quote now from Lives in Common Again, we knew they
[30:32] Speaker 2: were different from our Jews, I mean Arab Jews. We
[30:34] Speaker 2: thought of them as foreigners from Europe rather than Jews
[30:37] Speaker 2: as such, wrote Gata Karme, a Palestinian physician and writer
[30:40] Speaker 2: who grew up in West Jerusalem. And I think that's
[30:42] Speaker 2: a really important thing to keep in mind, is that, Like, again,
[30:45] Speaker 2: I know I'm harping on this, but these issues are
[30:46] Speaker 2: not religious in nature. There are issues of like a
[30:48] Speaker 2: bunch of European showing up in a place that's not European,
[30:51] Speaker 2: and like that causes conflict, you know, And there's a.
[30:54] Speaker 4: Difference between immigrants and settler Like, yeah, exactly at Palestine
[30:58] Speaker 4: has often you know, historically obviously, like look at where
[31:01] Speaker 4: it's placed. It's often you know, absorbed different communities, right,
[31:07] Speaker 4: Like you said, there's like the types that like blend in,
[31:09] Speaker 4: and then there's the ones that refuse and want to replace.
[31:13] Speaker 2: Yeah, because that is a really good point, because I
[31:15] Speaker 2: I don't and maybe I'll certainly yield to you if
[31:19] Speaker 2: because I'm sure you've considered this more than I don't.
[31:22] Speaker 2: I don't feel super like someone who just like is
[31:25] Speaker 2: fleeing a pagram and winds up moving to like Hebron
[31:28] Speaker 2: or Jerusalem or you know, Jaffa and like becomes a
[31:32] Speaker 2: member of the community that's less of a settler thing
[31:35] Speaker 2: than someone who like starts a farm and like it
[31:38] Speaker 2: starts a separate community that it doesn't want to let
[31:41] Speaker 2: it right, those are two different kinds of things, right absolutely.
[31:45] Speaker 4: And the fact that they were like especially the ones
[31:46] Speaker 4: in Java for example, like they were disempowering the Palestinian laborer,
[31:51] Speaker 4: you know, like that is the issue. It's not the
[31:53] Speaker 4: issue that there are new people necessarily.
[31:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, it quite frankly, it's the issue that happens whenever
[31:59] Speaker 2: there's a bunch of immigration from a separate place to
[32:02] Speaker 2: a new place. There's always variance of these conflicts. Right now,
[32:05] Speaker 2: this is not entirely the same thing because usually when
[32:08] Speaker 2: that happens, like in the US, you don't have a
[32:11] Speaker 2: bunch of foreign organizations with a bunch of money propped
[32:13] Speaker 2: up by some very wealthy people who are funding a
[32:15] Speaker 2: lot of the immigration. And a lot of these Zionist
[32:17] Speaker 2: groups are funded by very wealthy people who are paying
[32:20] Speaker 2: for these these people to go over there and sometimes
[32:23] Speaker 2: paying for them to basically live. And so one of
[32:25] Speaker 2: the complaints again that a lot of like Arab and
[32:27] Speaker 2: Sephardic Jews have is that like these new immigrants, they're
[32:30] Speaker 2: often just being paid to live by someone else. And
[32:32] Speaker 2: that's also frustrating to me because like I'm a Jew
[32:34] Speaker 2: and I've been here forever. Why don't they have to work?
[32:37] Speaker 2: You know, not that none of them are, not that
[32:39] Speaker 2: that's like most people. But these are the conflicts that
[32:42] Speaker 2: are occurring. Right. That is an attitude a lot of
[32:43] Speaker 2: people have, and it's accurate to some of this influx community. Right,
[32:47] Speaker 2: And these are you can see these conflicts starting to breed. Right.
[32:52] Speaker 2: Even Yakov Yehoshua, who is later the father of a
[32:54] Speaker 2: celebrated Israeli novelist, claimed that Ashkenasm tended to prefer their
[32:58] Speaker 2: own courtyards where they did not mix with Muslims or
[33:01] Speaker 2: Arab Jews. Quote, Muslim women descended to us from the
[33:04] Speaker 2: roofs to while away the evening talking to our mothers.
[33:07] Speaker 2: Our children played with their children, and when other children
[33:09] Speaker 2: came into the neighborhood to hurt us, our Muslim friends
[33:11] Speaker 2: who lived in the courtyard came to defend us. We
[33:14] Speaker 2: were their allies. And that is that is the you know,
[33:16] Speaker 2: the recollection of this kay Yakov, who is a native
[33:19] Speaker 2: and to Palistin and Jewish, right, is that these immigrant
[33:23] Speaker 2: communities do not have the same relationship that we do. Right.
[33:28] Speaker 2: And that quote is lovely, but it does imply something unlovely,
[33:30] Speaker 2: which is that there is still some internescing violence here, right,
[33:34] Speaker 2: Like the fact that in this neighborhood, these Muslim their
[33:38] Speaker 2: Muslim friends are like defending these these Jewish kids when
[33:40] Speaker 2: they get bullied, it means that there also is some bullying, right.
[33:43] Speaker 2: And I've run into quotes like that Monochamkleient's book, and
[33:46] Speaker 2: that's not again, it's going to happen anywhere you have
[33:49] Speaker 2: like a multi Think about the United States, right, Think
[33:52] Speaker 2: about whatever city you live in, Like, there's sizeable it's
[33:55] Speaker 2: the United States sizeable non white, sizable immigrant populations. And
[33:59] Speaker 2: if you listen to this show, I hope that you
[34:01] Speaker 2: consider those people your neighbors and aren't a piece of
[34:05] Speaker 2: shit and a racist. But you know, whatever city you
[34:07] Speaker 2: live in has a not insignificant number of people who
[34:10] Speaker 2: are pieces of shit and racists right against like folks
[34:13] Speaker 2: who are just different. That occurs everywhere. There's different kinds
[34:15] Speaker 2: of people, right, yeah, right, right, And so the fact
[34:19] Speaker 2: that there's some violence like that, I think says less
[34:21] Speaker 2: than the fact that most of these accounts are about
[34:23] Speaker 2: people being like, yeah, and our Muslim friends like protected
[34:26] Speaker 2: us from those folks who are like, you know, assholes
[34:28] Speaker 2: or whatever, right, like that's I think a better picture
[34:31] Speaker 2: of life, which is accurate. It's going to sound familiar
[34:33] Speaker 2: to anyone who lives in the United States, right And
[34:38] Speaker 2: that is also Klein's conclusion right in Lives in Common,
[34:41] Speaker 2: which is that despite the fact that there are structural
[34:43] Speaker 2: inequalities that chews face under the Ottoman system, in this
[34:45] Speaker 2: period of time, in daily life, Jews and Muslims and
[34:48] Speaker 2: Christians in Palestine got along and lived together much more
[34:51] Speaker 2: often than they were in conflict. Right now, that doesn't
[34:54] Speaker 2: mean like things were always ideal. When are they ever?
[34:56] Speaker 2: And there's a relevant quote from the book there between
[35:00] Speaker 2: young Jews and they're Christian and Muslim fellows sometimes grew strained.
[35:03] Speaker 2: Shchulimit Laskov lived in Baka in the early nineteen twenties
[35:06] Speaker 2: in an apartment that the Karakoreans and Armenian family rented
[35:10] Speaker 2: to her parents into English tenants. She played with the
[35:12] Speaker 2: Kiakorean children and when she ate at their home, she
[35:14] Speaker 2: would occasionally participate in Christian prayers with them, but when
[35:17] Speaker 2: they fought her erstwhile friends would sneer Jewish at her. Right.
[35:20] Speaker 2: And this is a Christian family and they normally have
[35:23] Speaker 2: good relations but it's this is just like people, you know, Like, yeah,
[35:28] Speaker 2: I think that it's just human beings. You're always going
[35:31] Speaker 2: to encounter pieces like this, right, and I don't think
[35:34] Speaker 2: that should overwhelm the more important story of like this,
[35:37] Speaker 2: this really significant degree of social solidarity that exists in
[35:41] Speaker 2: this period of time, right, you know, the fact that
[35:44] Speaker 2: there's bigotry that crops up an integrated community shouldn't take
[35:47] Speaker 2: away from that, But it's more important.
[35:49] Speaker 3: Like you said, oh, so sorry to interrupt them, No, no, no, no.
[35:53] Speaker 4: I was just saying, like, at the end of the day,
[35:54] Speaker 4: like you said, like it's like their inferior status legally,
[35:58] Speaker 4: which applied also to Christian minorities, like as an Ottoman issue,
[36:02] Speaker 4: not their neighbors issue.
[36:04] Speaker 3: Right. I'm sorry, I'm smiling, but my family's from ba.
[36:06] Speaker 4: Ah, so I didn't expect you to come up with
[36:10] Speaker 4: a quote from there.
[36:11] Speaker 2: Yeah. I think. What's one of the things that's also
[36:15] Speaker 2: important to remember here is that while Arab Jews and
[36:18] Speaker 2: Sephardic Jews and Christians who were born in Palestine and
[36:22] Speaker 2: natives to there were second class citizens, immigrant Zionist Jews
[36:27] Speaker 2: weren't always treated that way, especially in the latter the
[36:29] Speaker 2: very near the very end of the Ottomans, they might
[36:31] Speaker 2: have endured more protection than Jews were native born, because
[36:34] Speaker 2: they're seen as European and because the Ottomans are really
[36:37] Speaker 2: scared of pissing off the Europeans, right, not for any
[36:40] Speaker 2: kind of like, you know, because they're necessarily more connected,
[36:43] Speaker 2: just because they're they're white, right, Like the Ottomans don't
[36:46] Speaker 2: want that smoke. You know that that is a factor here, right.
[36:51] Speaker 2: So as more and more of these foreign born Jewish
[36:54] Speaker 2: immigrants moved to Palestine in the pre World War one years,
[36:56] Speaker 2: they start buying up property, not just real property but
[36:59] Speaker 2: in the cities as individuals, oftentimes just because you know,
[37:02] Speaker 2: you want a house, but also a lot of these
[37:04] Speaker 2: property and probably the bulk in terms of number are
[37:06] Speaker 2: being bought on behalf of and buy these large organizations
[37:09] Speaker 2: that are often doing it kind of strategically because they
[37:11] Speaker 2: want to be able to kind of, Oh, we would
[37:13] Speaker 2: like this to be a majority Jewish neighborhood, possibly because
[37:16] Speaker 2: it's near in Jerusalem, this happens a lot. Oh, we
[37:19] Speaker 2: want to kind of buy up as many of these
[37:20] Speaker 2: communities near the whaling Wall as we can, right, or
[37:23] Speaker 2: we want to buy up as many of these communities
[37:25] Speaker 2: near this other area that we're both of religious significance,
[37:28] Speaker 2: and that there is some conflict over and we want
[37:31] Speaker 2: to move these people that we're immigrating into. That's some
[37:34] Speaker 2: of these large organizations are very strategically thinking about the
[37:37] Speaker 2: property that they're buying that way. And we have to
[37:41] Speaker 2: deal with a couple of things when we talk about
[37:43] Speaker 2: the purchase of property in Palestine by these immigrants. Right,
[37:46] Speaker 2: if you read a lot of Israeli centered histories of Palestine,
[37:49] Speaker 2: you will come across the claim this is very common
[37:52] Speaker 2: up to the present day, that nearly all of the
[37:54] Speaker 2: territory that became the state of Israel was uninhabited when
[37:58] Speaker 2: these these these Zionists to start showing up. Right. This
[38:01] Speaker 2: attitude is represented well from an article I found in
[38:04] Speaker 2: the Jewish Virtual Library titled the Arabs and Palestine Quote.
[38:08] Speaker 2: For many centuries, Palestine was a sparsely populated, poorly cultivated,
[38:12] Speaker 2: and widely neglected expanse of eroded hills, sandy deserts, and
[38:15] Speaker 2: malarial marshes. Mark Twain, who visited Palestine in eighteen sixty seven,
[38:19] Speaker 2: described it as a desolate country whose soil is rich enough,
[38:22] Speaker 2: but is given over holy to weeds, a silent, mournful expanse,
[38:25] Speaker 2: a desolation here that not even imagination can grace with
[38:28] Speaker 2: the pomp of life and action. We never saw a
[38:30] Speaker 2: human being on the whole route. There was hardly a
[38:32] Speaker 2: tree or shrub anywhere, even the olive in the cactus tree,
[38:35] Speaker 2: those last friends of the worthless soil and almost deserted
[38:38] Speaker 2: the country. And I'm not used to being kind of
[38:40] Speaker 2: pissed at Mark Twain, but.
[38:42] Speaker 3: Yeah, where's off? Where was he walking?
[38:45] Speaker 2: Where was he walking? And like he can't have seen
[38:48] Speaker 2: all that much in terms of the actual expanse of
[38:50] Speaker 2: the country. But also I could drive through fucking Oklahoma
[38:52] Speaker 2: where I grew up and be like, wow, a desolate expanse.
[38:54] Speaker 2: I didn't see a whole person for for hours. It's like, yeah, man,
[38:57] Speaker 2: that doesn't mean people don't aren't living there and using
[38:59] Speaker 2: the land. It was hot as hell. Maybe they weren't
[39:02] Speaker 2: out that the time, man, Like yes, ces Man. Lewis French,
[39:08] Speaker 2: the British Director of Development, wrote this of Palestine, we
[39:11] Speaker 2: found it inhabited by Felaheen, who lived in Felaheen are
[39:14] Speaker 2: like Arab peasants. Right, we'll talk more about them later,
[39:17] Speaker 2: who lived in mud hovels and suffered severely from the
[39:20] Speaker 2: prevalent malaria. Large areas were uncultivated. The Felaheen, if not themselves,
[39:24] Speaker 2: cattle thieves, were always ready to harbor these and other criminals.
[39:27] Speaker 2: The individual plots changed hands annually. There was little public security,
[39:31] Speaker 2: and the Felahines lot was an alteration of pillage and
[39:33] Speaker 2: blackmail by their neighbors, the Bedouin and Jess I want
[39:38] Speaker 2: to note both how divorced from that is from real history.
[39:40] Speaker 2: In the history I've read you so far, I've read
[39:42] Speaker 2: you a bunch of counts of accounts, and these are
[39:44] Speaker 2: all from like the eighteen eighties, eighteen nineties, the same
[39:47] Speaker 2: basic period of time. Those two quotes I read about
[39:49] Speaker 2: no one being in Palestine, and these are quotes in
[39:51] Speaker 2: a lot of cases from people who become Israelis who
[39:54] Speaker 2: are like no, there was like a vibrant community that
[39:55] Speaker 2: I was a part of, Like a vibrant, settled community
[39:59] Speaker 2: that I was a part of. It was mostly non Jewish. Right.
[40:01] Speaker 2: We have plenty of accounts like that. This is obviously
[40:04] Speaker 2: not true, right, And even that Jewish Virtual Library article
[40:08] Speaker 2: cannot go long without technically admitting to the fact that
[40:11] Speaker 2: what they've said previously is not really accurate. The very
[40:14] Speaker 2: next sentence after the stuff I just read reads the
[40:17] Speaker 2: Arab population at the time was approximately six hundred thousand
[40:19] Speaker 2: compared to ninety four thousand Jews. Well that's not nobody.
[40:24] Speaker 2: That seems like a good number of it.
[40:26] Speaker 3: Yeah, they're not here.
[40:28] Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the things that goes on that kind
[40:30] Speaker 2: of obscures this, this errant and deliberately errant view of reality,
[40:35] Speaker 2: is that there's just a lot less people in the world.
[40:36] Speaker 2: There's a massive boom in the human population that occurs
[40:39] Speaker 2: kind of during this the end of the eighteen hundreds
[40:41] Speaker 2: early nineteen hundreds. A lot of it has to do
[40:43] Speaker 2: with like the haber Bosch process, with the fact that
[40:45] Speaker 2: we figure out how to create a lot of nitrogen
[40:48] Speaker 2: for fur. There's but human being, Like, there's way more
[40:50] Speaker 2: people in twenty to thirty years from now the period
[40:53] Speaker 2: we're talking about, and there are going to be later
[40:55] Speaker 2: and so you can see that as like, oh, these
[40:57] Speaker 2: Jewish immigrants, the Zionist immigrants brought civilists to Palestine. It's like, no,
[41:01] Speaker 2: there's more people everywhere. Man, It's just what happened, like
[41:05] Speaker 2: we figured out how to make fertilizer. I don't know
[41:07] Speaker 2: what to tell you.
[41:08] Speaker 4: And they just didn't understand like how these like felahin
[41:11] Speaker 4: likes organized their land.
[41:13] Speaker 3: Yes, you know, they didn't have.
[41:15] Speaker 4: Yeah, they didn't have like the property rights system that
[41:18] Speaker 4: they were accustomed to. And there was a big since
[41:21] Speaker 4: the landlords. And it's a whole thing that they didn't understand.
[41:26] Speaker 2: And they didn't care to write.
[41:27] Speaker 4: Now.
[41:28] Speaker 2: That article quoted Lewis French, a British agent who lived
[41:31] Speaker 2: in Palestine after the Ottoman Empire fell in the west
[41:33] Speaker 2: took over governance, and he talked about the fellahin these
[41:35] Speaker 2: traditional Arab desert peasants as if they lived in primitive
[41:39] Speaker 2: filth and we're basically just bandits. And I want to
[41:41] Speaker 2: read you a different description of these guys from a
[41:43] Speaker 2: Sephardic Jewish man named Joseph Meuhas. And Yoseph Meuas is
[41:47] Speaker 2: a Zionist, although not not the kind you're used to
[41:50] Speaker 2: hearing about. We're going to talk about what he believed
[41:51] Speaker 2: because it's really interesting and he grows up in he's
[41:56] Speaker 2: a local, right, and he later wrote that when he
[41:58] Speaker 2: was a kid, which is kind of around this. I
[42:00] Speaker 2: think it's a little later than this, but it's before
[42:02] Speaker 2: things really start to get terrible. He writes that for
[42:05] Speaker 2: a ten year period where he's a young man, he's
[42:07] Speaker 2: going to school, he's training, he was quote a constant
[42:10] Speaker 2: guest in the homes of the Fellas in the evening
[42:12] Speaker 2: when I returned from the Hater, or during vacations and holidays,
[42:15] Speaker 2: I would always visit Mohammad and Fatma, as well as
[42:17] Speaker 2: Ali and Khadijah, my favorite neighbors. They fed me of
[42:20] Speaker 2: their bread, I drank of their water, and sometimes they
[42:22] Speaker 2: honored me with their conversations and stories as dessert. Until
[42:25] Speaker 2: late at night. I would sleep in their homes, and
[42:27] Speaker 2: in this manner, all their manners, values, way of life, speech,
[42:30] Speaker 2: and the stories I loved served as my childhood education. Right,
[42:34] Speaker 2: that's a very different picture, I think, and Mayo has
[42:39] Speaker 2: felt the need to write down his recollections of life
[42:41] Speaker 2: and of the Fela Heen because during the twenties and
[42:43] Speaker 2: thirties things started to get a lot uglier, and he
[42:45] Speaker 2: started to hear a lot of these very racist claims
[42:47] Speaker 2: about these people that he'd grown up with and knew
[42:49] Speaker 2: was not true, and he starts to witness Jewish and
[42:52] Speaker 2: Muslim communities closing off from each other and becoming more hostile,
[42:56] Speaker 2: and this frightens and saddens him. Mayuhas is a teacher
[42:59] Speaker 2: of a Ruin Arabic as well as French at the
[43:02] Speaker 2: Evelina de Rothschild School for girls. The Rothchilds fund a
[43:05] Speaker 2: lot of the Zionist immigration in this period of time.
[43:07] Speaker 2: That's not I know, people, when you people bring up
[43:10] Speaker 2: the roth Childs, it's nearly always conspiracy stuff. This is
[43:12] Speaker 2: a thing like the roth Childs do right, Like they're
[43:14] Speaker 2: funding a lot of this because they believe in this.
[43:17] Speaker 2: And Mayuhus thinks it's his duty because of the kind
[43:20] Speaker 2: of Zionist he is. He thinks it is his duty
[43:22] Speaker 2: to encourage his co religionists to admire, learn from, and
[43:27] Speaker 2: blend in with the Felahen because they've lived there much longer.
[43:31] Speaker 2: Right from the book Lives in common Quote, Mayuhas viewed
[43:34] Speaker 2: the philus as the original Arabs, as opposed to the
[43:36] Speaker 2: desert nomads and the merchants of the cities. The phil
[43:39] Speaker 2: us he wrote, were the descendants of the Canaanites, who
[43:41] Speaker 2: are considered the most ancient inhabitants of Palestine. They fully
[43:44] Speaker 2: preserved all the ancient customs, more and more race that
[43:47] Speaker 2: the Jews have forgotten because of their exile. In other words,
[43:50] Speaker 2: his view is, we don't need, we don't need to
[43:52] Speaker 2: be separate from these people. We need to learn from
[43:55] Speaker 2: them and become part of their community and let them
[43:58] Speaker 2: teach us, because they are living a more authentic version
[44:01] Speaker 2: of ancient Jewish life than us, and we should learn
[44:03] Speaker 2: more from them to honor them. Right. That's his attitude
[44:06] Speaker 2: as a Zionist, right, because to him it means something
[44:09] Speaker 2: very different than it does to guys like Herzel. Foreign
[44:12] Speaker 2: Born immigrants were likelier to see Zionism as a struggle
[44:14] Speaker 2: of conquest. In fact, that was probably certainly the dominant
[44:17] Speaker 2: after a certain period of time attitude, whereas meyu Hus
[44:20] Speaker 2: is a local right and he believes that Arabs and
[44:23] Speaker 2: Jews are spiritual brothers and cousins. Right, If European immigrants
[44:27] Speaker 2: wanted to thrive in Palestine, he reasoned, they need to
[44:29] Speaker 2: have a close and respectful relationship with Arabs in others
[44:32] Speaker 2: in order to be successful. How do you know how
[44:34] Speaker 2: to live here if you're not gonna learn from these people?
[44:36] Speaker 2: Who have lived here.
[44:37] Speaker 1: Forever, right and here by the way, Yeah.
[44:42] Speaker 2: Sorry, shit, I don't know. Yeah, here's an ad We're back. Sorry.
[44:55] Speaker 2: I just I found that this guy really interesting because
[44:58] Speaker 2: you don't hear about stories like all that often or
[45:01] Speaker 2: attitudes like this, and it's interesting the counterpoint he provides
[45:05] Speaker 2: these attitudes that like these people really meant nothing and
[45:08] Speaker 2: had no impact on the development of society and civilization
[45:13] Speaker 2: in Palestine. I think it's really important to look at
[45:16] Speaker 2: someone who's not creating propaganda post taste, right. This is
[45:20] Speaker 2: somebody who lives in this area and lives in this
[45:23] Speaker 2: life and is horrified by what he sees happening in
[45:25] Speaker 2: the twenties and thirties. We'll talk about Mayuhas a little
[45:28] Speaker 2: more later. So as for modern Israeli claims of a
[45:32] Speaker 2: barren and empty Palestine, the reality is that prior to
[45:34] Speaker 2: the mid twentieth century, the area is a lot less populated.
[45:37] Speaker 2: But at the end of the eighteenth early nineteenth century
[45:39] Speaker 2: there's a population and it's not even World War One
[45:42] Speaker 2: takes a real bite at a population growth in the region,
[45:45] Speaker 2: don't get me wrong, but it does start to happen
[45:47] Speaker 2: after this period of time. This is also something that
[45:49] Speaker 2: modern Israeli scholarship likes to credit Jewish immigration for. But
[45:52] Speaker 2: the reality is this is happening in a lot of
[45:55] Speaker 2: ways for the same reasons it's happening in many other places.
[45:57] Speaker 2: Near the end of the eighteen hundred's new rail lines
[46:00] Speaker 2: open up and connect Palestine to the world, and it
[46:03] Speaker 2: brings trade and also brings tourists. Right, A lot of
[46:06] Speaker 2: European tourists want to come and see the Holy Land,
[46:09] Speaker 2: you know. And those tourists would have seen Jerusalem if
[46:12] Speaker 2: they came in like nineteen hundred as an incredibly cosmopolitan city.
[46:17] Speaker 2: The Al Wad neighborhood, to give one example, hosted three churches,
[46:20] Speaker 2: three synagogues, and seven mosques. The many Jewish and Muslim
[46:24] Speaker 2: holidays were celebrated by members of all faiths in particularly
[46:27] Speaker 2: diverse neighborhoods. In the summer two thousand issue of Jerusalem Quarterly,
[46:31] Speaker 2: Salim Tamari writes about an Ottoman era Muslim named Wassif
[46:34] Speaker 2: Jowaria quote. It was a pre nationalist era in which
[46:38] Speaker 2: religious identity embraced the other in its festivals and rituals.
[46:42] Speaker 2: Jowarian narrates that the Feast of Easter slash Pessa as
[46:45] Speaker 2: an occasion from Muslim, Christian Jewish celebrations. He details the
[46:49] Speaker 2: Muslim processions of Palm Sunday, which proceeded from the Abrahamic
[46:52] Speaker 2: Mosque and Hebron towards Jerusalem. The festival of al Nabi
[46:55] Speaker 2: Musa is recalled here as a Muslim popular celebration that
[46:58] Speaker 2: merges with the Christian Orthodox Easter. The Fantasia of Sabt
[47:01] Speaker 2: al Nur Fire Saturday, commemorating the Resurrection of Christ, is
[47:05] Speaker 2: seen as the greatest popular Christian celebration in Palestine, closely
[47:08] Speaker 2: coordinated with Muslim folk festivals. Purim was celebrated by Christian
[47:12] Speaker 2: and Muslim youth and Jewish neighborhoods. Wassif describes in detail
[47:15] Speaker 2: the costumes they wore on this occasion. Twice a year,
[47:18] Speaker 2: Muslim and Christian families, including the Jawaria family, joined the
[47:21] Speaker 2: Jewish celebrations at the shrine of Simon the justin Sheik
[47:24] Speaker 2: Jarra at the event known as Shathat al Yahudia, where
[47:27] Speaker 2: Heim the oud player and Zaki the tambourine player would
[47:30] Speaker 2: sing the accompaniment of Andalusian melodies. Yeah not a vision.
[47:36] Speaker 2: A lot of people want you to have of Palestine
[47:38] Speaker 2: in nineteen hundred.
[47:39] Speaker 4: I have to tell you, like the Palestine that I
[47:42] Speaker 4: was born and grew up in, Like, even in my
[47:46] Speaker 4: lifetime I'm thirty five, Like I've seen the progression of
[47:50] Speaker 4: like that lessening even more. I remember celebrating Christian holidays
[47:57] Speaker 4: and like there was a lot of integration. Obviously, the
[47:58] Speaker 4: Jewish holidays have been kind of you know, they've given
[48:01] Speaker 4: them they have kind of a different you know, salience
[48:03] Speaker 4: at this point.
[48:04] Speaker 3: But even now, like in the last.
[48:07] Speaker 4: Thirty five years, we've seen a huge decline in that,
[48:10] Speaker 4: like and the city has changed so much, so you
[48:13] Speaker 4: can imagine how much more it used to be integrated
[48:16] Speaker 4: back then.
[48:17] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really sad to think about. I mean, yeah,
[48:22] Speaker 2: now again, obviously, as I've noted, people are not you.
[48:26] Speaker 2: Jews and Christians are not equal citizens of the Ottoman Empire.
[48:29] Speaker 2: They have to pay an extra tax and they don't
[48:31] Speaker 2: enjoy all of the same rights. But they're also protected
[48:33] Speaker 2: by the state and allowed to worship as long as
[48:35] Speaker 2: they accept their faith as subordinate right. And that's alone
[48:38] Speaker 2: doesn't really do a fair job of explaining the complex
[48:41] Speaker 2: social and religious status quot that would have existed during
[48:44] Speaker 2: the last days of Ottoman rule. As Daniel Schrockter, a
[48:47] Speaker 2: historian at the University of Minnesota, told Canadian Jewish News
[48:50] Speaker 2: reporter Jody Shopach, quote, the idea that Jews lived as
[48:53] Speaker 2: second class citizens makes little sense in this context because
[48:56] Speaker 2: the idea of citizenship didn't apply in the pre modern
[48:58] Speaker 2: Islamic world, Truth said, adding Islam did see Jews and
[49:02] Speaker 2: Christians as inferior, but that didn't prevent peaceful interactions between
[49:05] Speaker 2: Jews and Muslims on a quidtitian level. Right, It's also
[49:08] Speaker 2: important to keep in mind, right that, like, you can't
[49:11] Speaker 2: really think about equality and citizenship in nearly the same
[49:14] Speaker 2: way that you can't.
[49:15] Speaker 4: Exactly right, nobody was no nobody had any rights.
[49:18] Speaker 2: Yeah, and when we say.
[49:19] Speaker 4: Inferior, it's like it's because Muslims believe in their faith
[49:23] Speaker 4: and they see these people who don't believe.
[49:25] Speaker 3: It's the same as Christians.
[49:26] Speaker 4: They're like, these non believers, they're less than us, Like
[49:28] Speaker 4: it's the same thing.
[49:30] Speaker 2: And yeah, and it's not when people are using it again,
[49:32] Speaker 2: it's like when they're talking about people, how long someone's
[49:34] Speaker 2: been here, that doesn't mean they don't think you're like
[49:35] Speaker 2: a person who has like worth their value. It means that, well,
[49:38] Speaker 2: your family hasn't been here quite as long, right, right,
[49:40] Speaker 2: in the case of like, if you're speaking like a
[49:42] Speaker 2: Spanish derived tongue in Palestine, you have it right Like yeah,
[49:47] Speaker 2: not that you know that matters in terms Again, it
[49:50] Speaker 2: doesn't generally matter in terms of how people treat each
[49:52] Speaker 2: other in this period of time. That said, the fact
[49:56] Speaker 2: that like things are you've got all of these among
[49:59] Speaker 2: the things, A lot of wealthier Europeans are coming in, right.
[50:02] Speaker 2: A lot of these these these Zionist immigrants are poor
[50:04] Speaker 2: and they're being supported by money by wealthier people. But
[50:07] Speaker 2: there's also wealthier immigrants coming in, and especially since they're
[50:10] Speaker 2: white and European, they enjoyed better treatment, right. And they're
[50:14] Speaker 2: also buying up a lot of property, as we've talked about,
[50:16] Speaker 2: for future Jewish residents, and that causes conflict, not just
[50:20] Speaker 2: with Muslim residents. In the first decades of Zionist migration,
[50:23] Speaker 2: many Arab Jews and Sephardic Jews were extremely prejudiced against
[50:26] Speaker 2: these new immigrants, in part because they didn't speak the
[50:29] Speaker 2: language very well, and in part because they kept to
[50:31] Speaker 2: themselves and often were kind of mean. To some of
[50:33] Speaker 2: the Sophardic communities. There's a lot of conflict between the
[50:36] Speaker 2: different Jewish communities in this period of time. Adding to
[50:39] Speaker 2: the irritation that many Sephardic residents felt was the fact
[50:41] Speaker 2: that a sizeable number of these new immigrants lived off
[50:43] Speaker 2: money donated by wealthier Zionists. In eighteen ninety one, that's
[50:47] Speaker 2: the very first time that prominent Arab citizens of Jerusalem
[50:50] Speaker 2: petitioned the government to stop Zionist immigration to Palestine by
[50:53] Speaker 2: banning the sale of land to foreign Jews. They're starting
[50:56] Speaker 2: to see this as a cultural invasion by Europeans, and
[50:58] Speaker 2: they argue that it represents a threat to their culture.
[51:01] Speaker 2: And as always is the case with complaints like this,
[51:03] Speaker 2: the people who made them most loudly are also the
[51:06] Speaker 2: people who profited from the exact immigration. They declined, cried,
[51:09] Speaker 2: and that's a big part of this right. As Monochamkleiin writes,
[51:13] Speaker 2: the leaders of the Husseini family, who lobbied the court
[51:15] Speaker 2: to place restrictions on the Zionists also sold them landem
[51:19] Speaker 2: Jerusalem's mayor tahire Al Hussini approved the sale of land
[51:22] Speaker 2: to the Zionists and engaged in such transactions himself. In
[51:25] Speaker 2: eighteen ninety nine, Rabat al Husseini sold the colonial lands
[51:28] Speaker 2: west of Jerusalem to the Zionists, where the latter built
[51:31] Speaker 2: the farming village of Muza. He also helped Jewish land
[51:34] Speaker 2: buyers get around the Ottoman land law stipulation that land
[51:36] Speaker 2: which had not been farmed for three years automatically became
[51:39] Speaker 2: state property. Ibrahim Sayid al Husseini worked for Baron Edmund
[51:43] Speaker 2: de Rothschild's land company JCA. He later resigned and signed
[51:46] Speaker 2: protests against the Zionists. Salim al Hussini made a fortune
[51:50] Speaker 2: in real estate ventures with the Jewish community and partnered
[51:52] Speaker 2: in a hotel with Yitzak Rokok, a Nashka Nazi resident
[51:55] Speaker 2: of Jerusalem. And we'll hear about Yitzak Rocock and the
[51:58] Speaker 2: Rocock family a little bit later, well, actually right now,
[52:00] Speaker 2: because Rocock is interesting. His son Shiman moves to Jaffa
[52:05] Speaker 2: and creates a series of Jewish community organizations. Right, and
[52:08] Speaker 2: he buys up a bunch of land. And while his
[52:10] Speaker 2: father had worked with the Husseini family to buy up
[52:13] Speaker 2: this land and to be happy to do that, Rocoq
[52:15] Speaker 2: refuses to deal at all with Arabs, right, like, once
[52:18] Speaker 2: he's got property, and once he owns property, he stops
[52:22] Speaker 2: wanting to have any kind of dealings with the Arab
[52:24] Speaker 2: community at all, with Muslims at all. Quote, he wanted
[52:27] Speaker 2: to keep his distance from them. Becoming one of the
[52:29] Speaker 2: initiators of the construction of Neved Sedek, the Jewish neighborhood
[52:33] Speaker 2: outside Jaffa's walls that became the nucleus of Tel Aviv.
[52:35] Speaker 2: Shimon's son Israel, was elected mayor of the new city.
[52:39] Speaker 2: And this is something that Israel said after being elected
[52:41] Speaker 2: mayor of Tel Aviv. Jaffa played no role in world
[52:44] Speaker 2: history nor in Israeli history, and one cannot find there
[52:47] Speaker 2: any relic of ancient culture from any period at all,
[52:50] Speaker 2: Mayor Rocoq said, and again we've just heard that, like, well,
[52:53] Speaker 2: the only reason the Rocock family had the land that
[52:55] Speaker 2: allowed him to do all this in the first place
[52:56] Speaker 2: is because of like very close business relationships with Arab mumas, right, like,
[53:01] Speaker 2: and Jaffa Tel Aviv starts out of job. It's just
[53:03] Speaker 2: it's just, I don't know, I know we're getting a
[53:05] Speaker 2: little bit off the topic here, but it really it's
[53:07] Speaker 2: really frustrating.
[53:09] Speaker 4: If people are interested in this element especially, I would
[53:13] Speaker 4: recommend Elon Pope's book on al Jossens because it's really
[53:17] Speaker 4: I always remember this anecdote that like one of the
[53:20] Speaker 4: al Hassenis also sold the land that later Hebrew University
[53:24] Speaker 4: was built on. So it's like a very interesting kind
[53:27] Speaker 4: of dynamic, Like I think you're you're right that, like
[53:30] Speaker 4: they've benefited a lot. I think also they didn't recognize
[53:33] Speaker 4: what was right, right, what was happening.
[53:34] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's part of this too. It's like there's this
[53:37] Speaker 2: this is you can see a lot of this initially
[53:39] Speaker 2: as like relative goodwill of like well why didn't I
[53:41] Speaker 2: sell a house to them? And then it comes like
[53:43] Speaker 2: twenty or fifty or one hundred, like well wait a second,
[53:45] Speaker 2: something's something going on here, right, right, right, Except and
[53:48] Speaker 2: obviously that doesn't mean there also are people who are
[53:50] Speaker 2: pretty aware of what's going on and like, but I
[53:51] Speaker 2: want to get money right and get my bag. That's
[53:53] Speaker 2: always a factor too. But a lot of people, you know,
[53:56] Speaker 2: it's not immediately clear what's happening too, And I think
[54:00] Speaker 2: some of this is just a sign that like, yeah,
[54:02] Speaker 2: people weren't really all that shitty, you know, to their neighbors.
[54:05] Speaker 2: They were like, well, yeah, these guys want to buy
[54:07] Speaker 2: up some buildings, why not, right.
[54:08] Speaker 3: And there's a class difference too.
[54:10] Speaker 4: It's like, yeah, you're a wealthy landowner, the that lives
[54:13] Speaker 4: on your land is gonna get screwed.
[54:16] Speaker 3: You don't really care.
[54:18] Speaker 2: Yeah, And I do suspect a lot of these Usanis
[54:20] Speaker 2: would have seen these other wealthier like Jewish immigrants as
[54:23] Speaker 2: more of like their type of people than like certainly
[54:25] Speaker 2: the Palahi. Right. Yeah. Anyway, one of the things I
[54:30] Speaker 2: didn't want to note about Rocock's statement there, where he's
[54:33] Speaker 2: like Jaffa played no role in world history, right, nor
[54:37] Speaker 2: Israeli history. One of the things he's doing there, he's
[54:40] Speaker 2: not just erasing like Palestinians from local history. He's a
[54:43] Speaker 2: racing Arab Jews as well as like Muslim Arabs here
[54:46] Speaker 2: because men like Rocock had to in order to make
[54:49] Speaker 2: their view of history work. The reality is that they're
[54:52] Speaker 2: in their community started out nestled in cities and towns
[54:54] Speaker 2: filled with people who had been there for generations and
[54:56] Speaker 2: were only able to get off the ground because of
[54:58] Speaker 2: a lot of support from those people, including like the
[55:01] Speaker 2: Muslim population. It took a purposeful effort to block these
[55:04] Speaker 2: new immigrant Jewish communities off from their neighbors. That was
[55:07] Speaker 2: not a natural state of affairs. It was a state
[55:09] Speaker 2: of affairs that members people within these communities and people
[55:12] Speaker 2: leading them had to want to make because they had
[55:15] Speaker 2: to stop integration from happening. Right. That is also a
[55:18] Speaker 2: thing that's happening consciously and being done consciously. Now. Some
[55:23] Speaker 2: of the effort and some of the conflict here comes
[55:25] Speaker 2: from a lot of these new immigrants see themselves they
[55:27] Speaker 2: are Europeans, and they want to build new European style cities.
[55:30] Speaker 2: They don't like Arabic cities. They see them as barbaric
[55:33] Speaker 2: and backwards. You'll hear that a lot, and that's a
[55:35] Speaker 2: major motivation behind many of the settlements that become tel Aviv.
[55:39] Speaker 2: It's created as a European style city for European Jewish
[55:43] Speaker 2: immigrants who did not want to immigrate and didn't want
[55:45] Speaker 2: to stop speaking European languages. Right, that's like a big
[55:48] Speaker 2: motivation for them in this period of time. Now, alongside this,
[55:52] Speaker 2: nineteen oh nine sees the establishment of the Hashomar by
[55:55] Speaker 2: Jitsak benz Vi and David Bengurian. This was a paramilitary
[55:59] Speaker 2: organization to guard Jewish settlements, and it's again the precursor
[56:02] Speaker 2: to the Haganah, and it's often described as and certainly
[56:05] Speaker 2: describes itself as a purely defensive organ like militia in
[56:09] Speaker 2: this period of time. Right although if you look at
[56:12] Speaker 2: the haganahs slogan at its establishment, it doesn't sound purely defensive,
[56:15] Speaker 2: because the slogan is Judea was lost by blood and
[56:18] Speaker 2: fire and will rise again by blood and fire, which
[56:21] Speaker 2: is like super friendly. Like I'm gonna be honest, if
[56:26] Speaker 2: some guys moved into my neighborhood and started walking around
[56:28] Speaker 2: with guns and that was their their motto, I'd be like,
[56:30] Speaker 2: I don't know, that doesn't sound all that defensive.
[56:34] Speaker 3: Yeah, very alarming. I don't know, I'm supected to a
[56:35] Speaker 3: blood and fire.
[56:36] Speaker 2: Sure, we don't have a lot of blood and fire
[56:38] Speaker 2: in the neighborhood right now, and I'm not really sure
[56:40] Speaker 2: we need any. It's important to document the prevalence of
[56:45] Speaker 2: that attitude even then without acting like it's the only one.
[56:48] Speaker 2: Many Jews and Palestine preferred to work within the system.
[56:51] Speaker 2: In the latter days of Ottoman rule, the growing Jewish
[56:53] Speaker 2: community in Jerusalem especially was able to exercise great power
[56:56] Speaker 2: by voting together. The Arab Elite were fractured, and Jewish
[57:00] Speaker 2: leaders offered support to families like the Husseinies who could
[57:02] Speaker 2: wield power directly in exchange for quid pro quo benefits.
[57:06] Speaker 2: One such benefit was an early attempt to take possession
[57:08] Speaker 2: of the Western Wall, a particularly holy site. The Housseini
[57:12] Speaker 2: family owned most of the houses on the other side
[57:14] Speaker 2: of this alley, and opposite there's like an a line
[57:17] Speaker 2: of homes that are owned by the Jewish community, and
[57:19] Speaker 2: a lina homes on the other side that are they're
[57:21] Speaker 2: owned primarily by Muslims, right by the Husseini family and
[57:24] Speaker 2: occupied by Muslims. And if the Husseinis sell these homes,
[57:27] Speaker 2: they can be bulldozed and the alley broadened, right, and
[57:30] Speaker 2: it made kind of an entirely Jewish community, right. Mustafa
[57:33] Speaker 2: al Husseini actually sells a number of these properties to
[57:36] Speaker 2: Baron Rothschild in eighteen eighty seven, but fears among rabbis
[57:39] Speaker 2: of a backlash, and it's rabbies who are like, wait
[57:41] Speaker 2: a second, if we let this go through, it's going
[57:44] Speaker 2: to like make people really paranoid and racist. This is
[57:48] Speaker 2: probably a bad idea. And the deal does sputter out.
[57:51] Speaker 2: In eighteen ninety seven, the Husseinis nearly sold the whole
[57:54] Speaker 2: alley to Rothschild, again from the Alwak Religious Trust, until
[57:58] Speaker 2: protests from Arab families forces him to stop. Right, So
[58:01] Speaker 2: they are trying to do this, and they are protests
[58:03] Speaker 2: from both the Jewish community and from the Muslim community
[58:05] Speaker 2: that stopped this from happening, and that also is really
[58:07] Speaker 2: worth acknowledging. Right. In nineteen fourteen, at the outbreak of
[58:11] Speaker 2: World War One, things come to a head when David
[58:14] Speaker 2: Yellen of the Association to Maintain Historical Sites in the
[58:17] Speaker 2: Land of Israel, writes to the US ambassador to the
[58:19] Speaker 2: Ottoman Court and he asks him to push the Sultan
[58:22] Speaker 2: to sell the Western Wall to the Association. Per the
[58:25] Speaker 2: book Lives in Common. Yellen did not have the money
[58:28] Speaker 2: to do so. He estimated the price would be at
[58:29] Speaker 2: least one million French frocs, including a ten percent bribe
[58:32] Speaker 2: for the relevant municipal officials, but he presumed he could
[58:35] Speaker 2: obtain it from Jewish millionaires as soon as the Ottomans
[58:37] Speaker 2: agreed to the sale and principle. But this never happens
[58:40] Speaker 2: either because Yellen had greatly overestimated how much money there
[58:43] Speaker 2: was for the cause right now. Attempts like this and
[58:46] Speaker 2: continued immigration spark unrest and occasionally even violence from the
[58:50] Speaker 2: Arab community. In a late attempt to slow this kind
[58:53] Speaker 2: of migration, the Ottomans make it law that only someone
[58:56] Speaker 2: with a thousand pounds or more in assets can apply
[58:59] Speaker 2: for an immigration certificate. And this doesn't really stop anything.
[59:02] Speaker 2: It basically creates another opportunity to bry a Bottoman officials.
[59:05] Speaker 2: And one thing that like some rich people who want
[59:08] Speaker 2: to bring more folks in, they'll like put it add
[59:10] Speaker 2: the name of a poor immigrant on their door to
[59:12] Speaker 2: make it look like they're part of the family for
[59:14] Speaker 2: long enough for the officials to check to see like, okay,
[59:16] Speaker 2: is there someone financially supporting them. There's ways around all
[59:19] Speaker 2: this stuff. Right up through the start of World War One, then,
[59:23] Speaker 2: most Arab residents in Palestine had little reason to fear
[59:27] Speaker 2: Zionism or believe that Jewish immigration would have a huge
[59:30] Speaker 2: impact on their lives. There are people getting frustrated by it,
[59:33] Speaker 2: there are conflicts over it, but it's not like the
[59:35] Speaker 2: dominant thing happening right. One of the relatively few people
[59:40] Speaker 2: to see into the future accurately was Najib Azuri, a
[59:44] Speaker 2: Lebanese Maronite Christian who worked for the Ottoman government during
[59:47] Speaker 2: its last days in Jerusalem. He declared in nineteen oh
[59:50] Speaker 2: five that Zionism and Arab nationalism were quote doomed to
[59:53] Speaker 2: constant struggle until one overwhelms the other. And that is
[59:57] Speaker 2: again Arab nationalism is really building this time again. We talked,
[1:00:01] Speaker 2: We've done our whole series of episodes on Lawrence of Arabia.
[1:00:03] Speaker 2: The Great Arab Revolt occurs during World War One. That's
[1:00:05] Speaker 2: happening in this period. That's happening because people are pissed
[1:00:08] Speaker 2: at the fucking Ottomans, right, and so as much as
[1:00:11] Speaker 2: some of these conflicts are going on in these cities,
[1:00:13] Speaker 2: the much broader conflict is these The much broader conflict
[1:00:16] Speaker 2: Arab nationalists are interested in is dealing with these fucking Ottomans, right, Like,
[1:00:20] Speaker 2: that's self determination, right right, yes, and obtaining I was
[1:00:25] Speaker 2: putting it crudely, but yes, obtaining self determination. Yeah, both things,
[1:00:29] Speaker 2: both things are true, right right? And yeah, Also Arab
[1:00:33] Speaker 2: Christians are also part of this. A lot of Arab
[1:00:35] Speaker 2: Christians are Arab nationalists because they're not being treated very
[1:00:38] Speaker 2: well by the Ottomans, right.
[1:00:39] Speaker 3: They're kind of the godfathers of it actually, like.
[1:00:42] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
[1:00:44] Speaker 4: Basically, like the answer to Arab nationalism is sectarianism, right,
[1:00:49] Speaker 4: Arab Christians want to be included in the community. So
[1:00:52] Speaker 4: like a lot of the big names of Arab nationalism,
[1:00:54] Speaker 4: like Constantinas Reek and like other people like that, they're Christians.
[1:00:58] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really important point. So the people
[1:01:02] Speaker 2: who are most invested in a multicultural Palestine then sometimes
[1:01:05] Speaker 2: find themselves in this period supporting the ailing Automan Empire.
[1:01:08] Speaker 2: And this is very weird. Like Mayosha is one of
[1:01:10] Speaker 2: a number of Zionists who want the Automan Empire to
[1:01:13] Speaker 2: last because they see that it's kind of keeping a
[1:01:16] Speaker 2: lot of conflict from happening within the community, right within Palestine. Right,
[1:01:20] Speaker 2: the fact that there's these Turks who are like, you know,
[1:01:23] Speaker 2: in charge of everything kind of stops a lot of
[1:01:25] Speaker 2: conflict that might otherwise brew up. And Mayusha believes that
[1:01:29] Speaker 2: Zionism is doomed a disaster if the Ottomans fall. He
[1:01:31] Speaker 2: believes that everything, not just Zionism will fail, but Zionism
[1:01:35] Speaker 2: will like there will be horrible violence in this place
[1:01:38] Speaker 2: that he loves, between these communities that he loves if
[1:01:40] Speaker 2: the Ottoman Empire falls, and he is right about that. Really,
[1:01:44] Speaker 2: up until the end of World War One, though most
[1:01:46] Speaker 2: people would have been hard pressed to believe that something
[1:01:48] Speaker 2: like that would really happen. It would be crazy to
[1:01:50] Speaker 2: predict in like nineteen ten, as someone living in Palestine,
[1:01:53] Speaker 2: as a normal person, that like, oh, the Ottomans are
[1:01:55] Speaker 2: on their last legs, they don't have a full decade
[1:01:58] Speaker 2: left of life. You most people would have made that
[1:02:00] Speaker 2: guess because the Ottoman Empire had been around for hundreds
[1:02:03] Speaker 2: and hundreds of years, and so as a result, a
[1:02:06] Speaker 2: lot of Muslim political leaders in this period of time
[1:02:08] Speaker 2: treat Zionism as like a special interest to be courted. Right.
[1:02:11] Speaker 2: Salim al Husseini served as mayor of Jerusalem for much
[1:02:14] Speaker 2: of the eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties, and he was
[1:02:16] Speaker 2: elected thanks to Jewish voters. In a speech, he argued
[1:02:19] Speaker 2: that Zionism quote is not a political movement, but a
[1:02:21] Speaker 2: settlement one. And I am certain that no intelligent and
[1:02:24] Speaker 2: rational Zionist will consider the establishment of a Jewish government
[1:02:27] Speaker 2: in Palestine. Famous I mean not last words, but not
[1:02:32] Speaker 2: right correct ones.
[1:02:33] Speaker 4: Right. Yeah, he maybe didn't know enough about the zion
[1:02:38] Speaker 4: maybe enough.
[1:02:40] Speaker 2: Right attention, and unfortunately, one of the people who is
[1:02:43] Speaker 2: very much seeing correctly where things are going is a
[1:02:46] Speaker 2: major right wing Zionist leader named Vladimir Yabatinsky. Right he
[1:02:50] Speaker 2: had been born in Odessa in modern day Ukraine in
[1:02:53] Speaker 2: eighteen eighty to an assimilated Jewish family, and Yebatinsky had
[1:02:57] Speaker 2: become a Zionist prior to the Kishnev pagrat and he
[1:03:00] Speaker 2: had become a popular speaker and influential organizer, and he
[1:03:03] Speaker 2: responded to that program by initially in Russia advocating and
[1:03:06] Speaker 2: helping to organize the construction of Jewish self defense groups.
[1:03:10] Speaker 2: He was extremely controversial, as was his slogan Jewish youth
[1:03:14] Speaker 2: learned to shoot, And obviously when he's in Russia being like,
[1:03:18] Speaker 2: I think we might need some guns. Hard to argue
[1:03:20] Speaker 2: with the man, right, I.
[1:03:22] Speaker 3: Mean Zienus and non Zionis said the same.
[1:03:24] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he's not going to stay there law right,
[1:03:28] Speaker 2: Like that's that's just kind of the fact. And we'll
[1:03:30] Speaker 2: talk a lot more about him about what happens to Zionism,
[1:03:33] Speaker 2: what happens to Palestine after and during World War One
[1:03:36] Speaker 2: in Part two. But you know, this is the end
[1:03:38] Speaker 2: of part one, how are we feeling?
[1:03:41] Speaker 3: Wow? They covered so much.
[1:03:43] Speaker 2: We did it a lot. People should like read the books,
[1:03:47] Speaker 2: you know, and stuff that we're talking about obviously to
[1:03:51] Speaker 2: get much more comprehensive. But yeah, I'm we got to
[1:03:55] Speaker 2: fly through what's sixty years about? Yeah?
[1:04:00] Speaker 3: World events?
[1:04:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, look at none of what you're new to you,
[1:04:03] Speaker 2: but yeah, all right, anything you want to plug at
[1:04:05] Speaker 2: the end here before we roll out in the part two, Yeah.
[1:04:09] Speaker 4: Check out the Handbook on Authoritarianism in the Air World.
[1:04:12] Speaker 3: Yes, yes, clip's very politics.
[1:04:15] Speaker 2: Yeah, awesome, all right, everybody, We'll be back Thursday.
[1:04:18] Speaker 4: Whoop.
[1:04:22] Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.
[1:04:25] Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool
[1:04:27] Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
[1:04:31] Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video episodes,
[1:04:35] Speaker 1: but Behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix, dropping
[1:04:38] Speaker 1: every Tuesday and Thursday. Hit remind me of Netflix. You
[1:04:40] Speaker 1: don't miss an episode. For clips in our older episode catalog,
[1:04:44] Speaker 1: continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel YouTube dot com
[1:04:47] Speaker 1: slash at Behind the Bastards. We love about forty percent
[1:04:51] Speaker 1: of you, statistically speaking,

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.