# Episode 168: "Debunked by Nature" and Lessons from Farm Life with Mollie Engelhart

An episode of [Regenerative Agriculture Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1372359995), 25 Sep 2025, 55 min.

Audio: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/regenerativeagriculture/Mollie_Englehart.mp3?dest-id=4976130

After growing up on a farm, Mollie Engelhart built a vegan restaurant empire in Los Angeles, which she planned to sell before COVID disrupted her plans. During the pandemic, she lost her income and spent time back on the farm, using nature's lens to question societal constructs like veganism. These experiences inspired her book, Debunked by Nature, where she shares her shift to truth-seeking based on natural cycles. She now lives on a Texas ranch, advocating for authentic living through storytelling. Mollie experiments with regenerative techniques on her Texas ranch, like mulching to combat oak wilt and bale grazing to boost soil health in caliche soils. She advocates for local food systems, resilient communities, and soil stewardship through her book and Epoch Times writings. She aims to inspire sustainable farming through her innovative practices, like propagating adapted trees and hedging crop plantings. In this episode, John and Mollie discuss: • Shifting away from veganism and recognizing life-death cycles in food production. • Building resilient communities through local food systems and family governance. • Using deep mulching with juniper chips to reverse oak wilt in Texas' calcareous soils. • Enhancing soil fertility through bale grazing, leveraging carbon to boost pasture growth. • Adapting crop plantings, like late-season corn and sesame, to hedge against erratic weather and pests. • Propagating locally adapted tree varieties to support regional farming success. • Observing local ecosystems to inform management, avoiding blanket solutions for diverse soils. Additional Resources Click here to order Mollie's book. To read Mollie's opinion section of the Epoch Times, click here. About John Kempf John Kempf is the founder of Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA). A top expert in biological and regenerative farming, John founded AEA in 2006 to help fellow farmers by providing the education, tools, and strategies that will have a global effect on the food supply and those who grow it. Through intense study and the knowledge gleaned from many industry leaders, John is building a comprehensive systems-based approach to plant nutrition – a system solidly based on the sciences of plant physiology, mineral nutrition, and soil microbiology. Support For This Show & Helping You Grow Since 2006, AEA has been on a mission to help growers become more resilient, efficient, and profitable with regenerative agriculture. AEA works directly with growers to apply its unique line of liquid mineral crop nutrition products and biological inoculants. Informed by cutting-edge plant and soil data-gathering techniques, AEA's science-based programs empower farm operations to meet the crop quality markers that matter the most. AEA has created real and lasting change on millions of acres with its products and data-driven services by working hand-in-hand with growers to produce healthier soil, stronger crops, and higher profits. Beyond working on the ground with growers, AEA leads in regenerative agriculture media and education, producing and distributing the popular and highly-regarded Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, inspiring webinars, and other educational content that serve as go-to resources for growers worldwide. Learn more about AEA's regenerative programs and products: https://www.advancingecoag.com

## Transcript

[0:00] Hi, friends. Welcome back to the
[0:01] Regenerative Agriculture
[0:02] Podcast. This is Jon, and we're
[0:04] back with Molly Engelhardt.
[0:05] But I wanted to have you back
[0:07] because I think your current
[0:09] work and the book that you're in
[0:11] the process of releasing is so
[0:13] relevant for our times where we
[0:15] have this
[0:16] increasing polarity
[0:19] and this division
[0:21] between farmers and their
[0:23] consumers. And there is this
[0:25] moment
[0:27] following what happened with
[0:28] COVID and with growing awareness
[0:30] of food supply chain issues and
[0:32] collective public health issues
[0:33] over the course of the last
[0:34] three or four years, that
[0:35] people—there's an openness to
[0:38] asking questions that hasn't
[0:40] existed for quite some time, it
[0:42] feels like.
[0:44] And
[0:45] your message and what you've
[0:48] been working on here over the
[0:49] last year or two
[0:50] addresses this so directly.
[0:52] So I don't want to
[0:54] to put to use my words to
[0:57] describe what you're doing.
[0:57] Tell us a bit about your book
[0:59] and your message and what it is
[1:00] you're working on.
[1:02] Well,
[1:03] my book really came out of
[1:06] my relationship with nature.
[1:09] And I was living I grew up on a
[1:11] farm, so I have like a farming
[1:13] childhood background.
[1:15] And then I moved to Los Angeles
[1:16] and lived a very
[1:18] modern L .A. life for many, many
[1:21] years. I was,
[1:22] I would say, a feminist and a
[1:24] workaholic. And I was All of the
[1:27] strive to do, I can do what men
[1:29] can do, all of that was very
[1:31] loud in me.
[1:34] I built up this empire.
[1:36] And at the beginning of COVID,
[1:37] before COVID started, I was
[1:39] selling it for between $25 and
[1:41] $31 million.
[1:42] And so I thought I had
[1:45] succeeded. I had built this
[1:46] thing. I grew it bigger.
[1:48] I'm selling it to a venture
[1:50] capital firm. And I could just
[1:52] be a full -time mom and shift
[1:54] what I was doing.
[1:55] And somewhere along the way, I'd
[1:57] learned about regenerative
[1:58] agriculture and really had
[2:00] shifted what was important to me
[2:02] away from veganism and what I
[2:04] was doing to regenerative
[2:06] agriculture. But I'm no dummy,
[2:07] like if I'm going to sell my
[2:08] business and get out and then do
[2:10] that.
[2:11] But COVID not only robbed me of
[2:13] that deal and that opportunity,
[2:15] but it robbed me of
[2:17] my income and my business that I
[2:20] was running for those 15 years.
[2:23] And in that time, I spent a lot
[2:26] of time on the farm, a lot of
[2:28] time observing.
[2:29] And I started to realize in a
[2:32] world where everybody was
[2:33] talking about truth and
[2:34] misinformation and what's true
[2:35] and my truth and there's
[2:37] subjective truth and all this,
[2:40] I started to ask, what is truth?
[2:42] And I realized that nature was
[2:44] an expression of
[2:46] God's perfection.
[2:48] And so in being a seeker of
[2:50] truth,
[2:52] Could I take these constructs
[2:54] that are being thrown through
[2:56] the air all the time for
[2:58] division,
[2:59] for dividing us?
[3:01] And could I take it to the
[3:02] savanna,
[3:03] the woods, or the farm and
[3:06] ask,
[3:07] does this exist in nature?
[3:09] And it really started with
[3:10] veganism. Like there is no
[3:11] veganism. It doesn't exist.
[3:13] My whole life was based on that.
[3:15] And then you get to the farm and
[3:18] you see that,
[3:19] well, blood meal, bone meal,
[3:21] feather meal, chicken food, all
[3:24] coming out of the consolidated
[3:25] feedlot system.
[3:26] Organic fertilizer in the
[3:29] degenerative organic system is
[3:32] literally just byproducts of the
[3:34] death industry.
[3:35] And I say that in quotation
[3:36] marks that
[3:38] vegans hate. And so all of our
[3:41] vegetables
[3:42] energetically are
[3:44] feeding on that death.
[3:46] And so there is no plate of food
[3:49] without death. I cannot have an
[3:50] animal on my plate, but my
[3:52] avocado toast, there was ground
[3:53] squirrels killed.
[3:55] have that avocado toast when
[3:57] those avocado trees were young.
[3:59] In the toast itself there was
[4:00] rabbits and squirrels and foxes
[4:02] and whatever snakes and frogs
[4:04] that were got up into the
[4:06] combine and there was
[4:08] cats and rat traps to protect
[4:11] the grain. I mean there is no
[4:13] food without death.
[4:14] Every
[4:16] What's a part of there is no
[4:17] life without death.
[4:18] It's a part of the cycle.
[4:20] It's two sides of the same coin.
[4:21] It's not actually a failure.
[4:23] It's a function of life.
[4:25] And so my
[4:27] book is called Debunked by
[4:28] Nature. And essentially, I take
[4:30] these ideas that I was taught in
[4:33] college in Los Angeles, in
[4:36] Ithaca, New York.
[4:36] I grew up in the most liberal
[4:40] ideas. And I just say,
[4:43] Do they make sense?
[4:44] And not all my ideas are
[4:45] political that I question.
[4:47] I talk about co -sleeping.
[4:49] I talk about breastfeeding.
[4:51] I talk about, you know, why
[4:53] would we think we could,
[4:54] Nestle's company could make
[4:56] something more nutritious than
[4:59] the
[5:00] mother's milk? It doesn't make
[5:01] any sense. And would a lion
[5:04] sleep
[5:05] far away from her child where
[5:08] she can't see it.
[5:09] Only time that happens in nature
[5:11] with mammals is when the deer,
[5:14] when bovine are first born and
[5:16] they don't have the scent of the
[5:18] animal yet. The mother will
[5:19] sleep close by where she can see
[5:21] it, but that the predator would
[5:23] come for her rather than the
[5:24] baby until the baby can run.
[5:26] That is the only time we see a
[5:28] mammal sleeping away from their
[5:30] mother.
[5:31] young.
[5:32] And so we have created a culture
[5:34] where we put the baby in a
[5:35] separate room and watch it with
[5:36] a digital monitor or whatever.
[5:38] So not all my ideas are
[5:40] political.
[5:42] They're just kind of about
[5:43] societal norms.
[5:45] And are these things normal or
[5:46] have we lost our way?
[5:48] Has God shown us the perfect
[5:49] design and we are ignoring it?
[5:52] A bit ago, you mentioned some of
[5:54] the truths that you observed
[5:56] emerging from nature when you
[5:59] started paying attention.
[6:00] I've always been intrigued by
[6:02] the
[6:04] analogs between
[6:08] the way plants develop and
[6:11] livestock develop and our own
[6:12] spiritual growth as well.
[6:14] So this one example,
[6:16] that I've mentioned before is
[6:17] the process of the very simple
[6:19] process of photosynthesis.
[6:20] And it's 24 hour circadian
[6:22] rhythm.
[6:24] You have plants that are
[6:25] collecting energy from the light
[6:27] during the day while the sun is
[6:29] shining
[6:30] and storing and conserving that
[6:32] energy to grow at night.
[6:34] 80 % of cell division happens
[6:36] between 3 a .m.
[6:37] and
[6:37] 8 a .m. or
[6:38] you could say during the darkest
[6:40] time of the night and at dawn.
[6:42] And when you think about that
[6:43] from a spiritual perspective,
[6:45] There's a powerful analog here
[6:46] that we are to collect energy
[6:48] from the light during the bright
[6:49] times of our lives so
[6:51] that we have conserved energy
[6:53] and stored energy to
[6:55] develop and grow during the
[6:57] trials and tribulations that
[6:58] come.
[7:00] And
[7:00] so
[7:01] my
[7:02] question, you mentioned you've
[7:04] touched on a few, but what are
[7:05] some of the truths that you
[7:07] observed in nature that or
[7:10] some of your memorable moments
[7:12] that you look back now and you
[7:13] say, aha, that was a
[7:15] breakthrough?
[7:17] Yeah.
[7:18] I've told this story before, but
[7:20] I was
[7:23] breastfeeding my second child,
[7:26] and my first child was a
[7:28] toddler.
[7:28] And I was vegan, and my mindset
[7:30] was vegan,
[7:32] and I was feeding my toddler oat
[7:35] milk.
[7:35] My father had given me a cow.
[7:37] Her name is Una.
[7:38] I still have Una.
[7:40] And
[7:41] she was bred when I got her, and
[7:44] she had a bull calf.
[7:47] And her udder is very, very big.
[7:49] She's a European big.
[7:51] And her back two teats were too
[7:53] low to the ground for the calf
[7:56] to nurse on. So he just focused
[7:57] on the front two, and we were
[7:58] milking off the back two.
[8:01] And we had got her for compost.
[8:02] I was still in my vegan mind.
[8:04] I was going to have a cow.
[8:05] I was going to set off my
[8:05] compost with her poop.
[8:07] And
[8:08] But my uncle was drinking the
[8:10] milk from those back two teats.
[8:11] And so I go to get the oat milk
[8:13] out of the refrigerator.
[8:14] I'm holding my infant nursing on
[8:17] my mind. I'm nursing the infant.
[8:19] That's perfect food.
[8:20] It's divine. It's it's all the
[8:21] nutrients, everything that it
[8:23] needs for this area has the
[8:24] microbiology has the
[8:26] the immune stuff for this exact
[8:29] area.
[8:30] And I look at the oat milk and
[8:31] the Tetra Pak from Costco, and I
[8:33] look at this glass half gallon
[8:34] ball jar of Una's milk in my
[8:37] refrigerator.
[8:38] And I think,
[8:40] why would I think
[8:42] that that is death?
[8:45] That is pus, that is gross, that
[8:46] is bad for you.
[8:47] And this oat milk, sterile Tetra
[8:50] Pak from Costco is
[8:54] somehow good for my kid.
[8:56] Like it just,
[8:57] broke my head at that moment
[8:58] because obviously the breast is
[9:01] best. And then Una is living in
[9:03] the same environment as I am,
[9:05] but dirtier.
[9:06] And so her milk has to be
[9:08] healthful and nourishing for my
[9:10] toddler,
[9:10] cannot be harmful.
[9:12] And I just like secretly, I
[9:14] didn't even want the vegans to
[9:15] know that I was secretly feeding
[9:17] my toddler raw milk from my cow
[9:19] because I was afraid.
[9:23] So what happened in the shift
[9:26] from that moment you had this
[9:30] realization, in that moment you
[9:31] were afraid,
[9:32] and now you stand on the eve of
[9:35] releasing this book,
[9:37] which
[9:38] hopefully
[9:40] controversial in the very best
[9:42] sort of way.
[9:43] Controversial in the sense that
[9:44] it inspires lots of
[9:45] conversations and inspires
[9:46] people to reevaluate what
[9:48] happened from that moment of
[9:49] being afraid to speak out to
[9:52] now.
[9:53] I'm still afraid.
[9:54] Being a torchbearer.
[9:55] I mean, I think I'm still
[9:57] afraid. I think
[9:59] I don't think anybody's not
[10:01] afraid. I think it's either you
[10:03] can be afraid and you can still
[10:04] take action or you're afraid and
[10:07] you're in inaction.
[10:08] And so just the other night, me
[10:11] and my husband went somewhere
[10:12] and then we stopped on the way
[10:13] home and I went to the restroom
[10:14] and
[10:15] someone stopped me in the
[10:17] restroom and said, I know who
[10:20] you are, ma, ma, ma, ma, ma.
[10:21] And I said, oh, thank you.
[10:24] And I all of a sudden had this
[10:26] like fear come over me because I
[10:28] wrote this book
[10:30] in in the three hours of the
[10:32] morning from four a .m.
[10:33] to six a .m.
[10:35] at that time that we're supposed
[10:36] to be growing. Right.
[10:37] I
[10:37] got
[10:38] up at four a .m.
[10:39] for six weeks
[10:39] every morning when my kids were
[10:41] sleeping. No kid on
[10:42] the boob. No, nothing.
[10:44] I could just focus and did it
[10:45] from six, eight, four a .m.
[10:46] to six a .m.
[10:47] So I was very intimate.
[10:48] It was me in the living room of
[10:50] my home in very dark kind of
[10:53] cave like experience.
[10:54] And I just told the truth.
[10:56] The truth came out of my heart
[10:58] and I
[10:59] felt like it was just coming out
[11:00] of me, coming out of me, coming
[11:01] out of me.
[11:02] And then I sent it
[11:04] to Taylor and he gave it to Paul
[11:06] and Paul and me went back and
[11:07] forth. And that's the editor
[11:08] from acres.
[11:09] And then it's just me and Paul.
[11:11] And so that's pretty intimate
[11:12] too. And then
[11:14] all of a sudden you're like, Oh,
[11:15] we need some blurbs.
[11:16] So it's like, we're going to
[11:17] give it to a few people to get a
[11:18] blurb. And then all of a sudden
[11:20] I had this realization in the
[11:22] restroom as this woman was like,
[11:23] Oh my God, Molly, I follow you
[11:24] on Instagram.
[11:25] And I just had this thought
[11:26] like, Oh my God,
[11:28] I just felt so naked, like my
[11:30] whole soul is on display, but
[11:33] I believe that I was led there.
[11:35] this because the way I tell this
[11:38] story is not didactic.
[11:40] It is not telling people what
[11:41] they must believe, but in the
[11:43] most honest way and sometimes
[11:45] looking bad,
[11:47] how did I believe this thing?
[11:49] And now how do I believe this
[11:50] thing and connecting those dots?
[11:52] And I'm hoping that
[11:55] it is controversial in that
[11:57] people find out about it and I
[11:59] can connect those dots for other
[12:01] people.
[12:01] Because the
[12:04] idea that I jumped out of bed
[12:07] five days after having a baby
[12:09] and strapped my baby to me and
[12:11] went to work to prove that I was
[12:14] just as strong as a man,
[12:16] that's broken.
[12:17] That idea,
[12:18] and that harms my body, it harms
[12:21] my children.
[12:23] And
[12:23] what kind of idea is that?
[12:25] Like, I need to be as strong as
[12:26] a man?
[12:28] who cannot push a baby out of
[12:29] them, grow a baby in them and
[12:31] bring it forth into this world,
[12:32] five days later, and I'm just
[12:35] like there at work, pale as can
[12:37] be, bleeding,
[12:38] proving how strong I am, that
[12:40] mindset that I can do anything
[12:43] he can do, instead of that we
[12:45] are a bond and we are two
[12:48] halves of one whole,
[12:51] each perfect in our shortcomings
[12:53] and our strengths to complement
[12:56] each other,
[12:57] I was indoctrinated and I spent
[13:00] much of my life trying to live
[13:02] up to these ideas that I was
[13:04] told. And if I can give a woman
[13:07] a permission at a much younger
[13:09] age to start having children,
[13:11] at a much younger age to decide
[13:13] to let her husband be the
[13:14] breadwinner,
[13:16] I will love to cause
[13:19] just that little transformation.
[13:21] If I can,
[13:21] I had
[13:24] Abortions when I was younger,
[13:25] like, I'm going to have to live
[13:26] with that sin that I did that.
[13:28] But if I can lead someone.
[13:30] through my experience to where I
[13:32] am at 47 and where I was at 22
[13:35] and let them see my mistakes,
[13:38] maybe they don't have to live
[13:39] the mistakes I did.
[13:41] And maybe God can use my
[13:43] shortcomings and
[13:46] my missteps to
[13:48] help other women feel strength
[13:50] in being the feminine that they
[13:54] are.
[13:55] And that's just one part of the
[13:57] book. But in the feminine and
[13:58] masculine,
[13:59] if I if just that could help
[14:00] people, I feel like
[14:03] that would be great because I
[14:04] feel like way the way I pushed
[14:06] my body for my first two
[14:08] children, what was not right,
[14:11] and especially at the age that I
[14:12] was.
[14:15] Well, sometimes we approach
[14:16] projects because
[14:18] we're passionate about them.
[14:20] Sometimes we approach projects
[14:22] because they're a dream that
[14:23] we've had for a long time.
[14:25] And sometimes we're led into
[14:26] projects kind of inadvertently,
[14:28] and we only realize what we're
[14:29] doing kind of after the fact.
[14:32] And so
[14:35] as you now stand on this stage,
[14:38] obviously, you've you've
[14:39] completed writing the book.
[14:41] You have a manuscript.
[14:42] You're about to send it out into
[14:43] the world.
[14:45] You just
[14:46] you preempted part of my
[14:48] question. So now I'm going to
[14:49] expand that. I was going to ask
[14:50] the question, what are what are
[14:52] the changes that you hope can be
[14:53] inspired in people's lives by
[14:55] raising the book in the world?
[14:56] But now I'd like to broaden
[14:58] that.
[15:01] more expansively than just what
[15:02] you described for young women?
[15:03] What are all the possible
[15:04] transformations?
[15:05] What are all the possible things
[15:06] that you hope might come true by
[15:07] putting this book into the
[15:08] world?
[15:10] Well, I feel that we're in a
[15:12] place and in a time where
[15:14] everything is about division.
[15:16] And
[15:17] I think,
[15:18] and we're all consuming so much
[15:20] information and there's so much.
[15:23] But if you look at all the
[15:24] information that we have, we're
[15:25] consuming, whether it's social
[15:26] media, whether it's
[15:27] environmental justice, whether
[15:28] it's regenerative agriculture,
[15:30] chemical agriculture,
[15:33] a lot of the underlying message
[15:35] is like us and them,
[15:37] good and bad,
[15:39] separation, separation,
[15:40] separation.
[15:41] And
[15:43] while we're fighting about all
[15:44] these things,
[15:46] the ability for us to reproduce
[15:47] is being poisoned out of us.
[15:51] Our ability to even have local
[15:53] secure food systems is
[15:55] collapsing. We're in an agrarian
[15:57] collapse that has never been
[15:58] seen before.
[16:01] 170 ,000 farms, you were there
[16:03] when I got corrected.
[16:04] I said 140 ,000 and Merrill West
[16:07] from the Free Farm Alliance
[16:09] said, I think it's 170 ,000 in
[16:12] eight years. So if that's true,
[16:15] That's one in 15 farms we lost
[16:17] in the last eight years.
[16:20] I just spoke to a representative
[16:21] in Texas.
[16:22] He said that Texas lost 4 ,000
[16:24] family farms in the last year.
[16:27] So we are in a collapse.
[16:29] And my hope is that
[16:33] on a greater scale, people can
[16:35] be drawn back to the land.
[16:37] And if not, that may not mean
[16:39] they're going to pick up a
[16:41] garden hoe or they're going to
[16:42] pick up a shovel or get on a
[16:43] tractor.
[16:44] that maybe it means they're
[16:46] willing to drive 45 minutes to
[16:47] pick up raw milk from their
[16:49] local Amish farmer, or they're
[16:51] willing to drive out and get a
[16:53] CSA box, or join a CSA, or get a
[16:55] meat box, or any of those
[16:58] things. Because
[16:59] so many farmers are white
[17:01] knuckling it,
[17:02] working a second job
[17:05] just to lose money to grow our
[17:07] food. And this is not right.
[17:09] And although that's not what my
[17:10] book is about,
[17:12] being reconnected to how
[17:14] important healthy soil is and
[17:17] being in the circadian rhythm of
[17:19] life and eating local food and
[17:21] the coherency of local food and
[17:23] all of that.
[17:25] I hope that it inspires people
[17:26] to remember that there is more
[17:29] people than there is masters.
[17:32] And so we get to vote every time
[17:34] we spend our money and.
[17:37] there is these resilient
[17:38] communities in parts of this
[17:40] country and in parts of other
[17:41] countries,
[17:42] and there's largely non
[17:44] -resilient communities.
[17:45] And I want us to move back to
[17:47] more resiliency.
[17:49] And I was just talking about
[17:50] this with my husband yesterday,
[17:51] because he's
[17:53] Mexican and he's indigenous from
[17:55] Mexico.
[17:55] And someone called me last night
[17:57] and said somebody that I went to
[17:59] high school had died of a drug
[18:00] overdose. And
[18:03] I told
[18:05] my husband and I
[18:08] He said, that seems like you get
[18:09] that phone call all the time.
[18:11] And I said, it's been a lot.
[18:13] And I tried to count and I
[18:14] actually couldn't remember all
[18:15] the people from my hometown that
[18:18] have died of a drug overdose.
[18:20] And then if you add the people I
[18:21] know in Los Angeles from the
[18:22] time I lived there, and he's
[18:24] from this small indigenous
[18:25] village in Mexico.
[18:27] And he said, you know, I don't
[18:28] know anybody that died
[18:30] of
[18:31] a drug overdose.
[18:32] And I said, you don't?
[18:33] And we got to talking and he
[18:35] said he knows one guy that
[18:36] passed out drunk and died of
[18:38] smoke inhalation,
[18:40] but he doesn't have any body.
[18:43] And he said that it's just
[18:44] starting to creep into the
[18:45] villages.
[18:46] But in Oaxaca, there's largely
[18:48] no government in the
[18:50] municipalities.
[18:51] It's all elders and
[18:54] patrols, men controlling the,
[18:57] you know, and it's all kind of
[18:59] social
[19:02] governance and not big
[19:04] government. And I thought it's
[19:05] very interesting.
[19:07] So I looked it up.
[19:07] We have a five thousand eight
[19:09] hundred times the death rate
[19:12] from drugs in the United States
[19:13] that they do in Mexico.
[19:15] It's 31 people per 100 ,000
[19:18] here,
[19:19] and it's 0
[19:20] .53 in Mexico,
[19:23] and 0 .71 in the urban areas of
[19:25] Mexico. So it's a little higher
[19:27] in the urban areas, but still
[19:28] very, very low.
[19:30] And so my point is that when the
[19:32] family
[19:33] So in these rural communities in
[19:35] Mexico,
[19:36] still largely governed by the
[19:37] community,
[19:38] and it's still largely governed
[19:39] by the family unit, the mother,
[19:42] father, child as the foundation
[19:43] and the greater community
[19:44] outside of that, that that
[19:46] way of governance is the
[19:48] greatest way of governance that
[19:50] humanity has ever had.
[19:52] And it is not a relic of the
[19:54] past, but it is a reflection of
[19:56] what we need to get back to.
[19:58] And so
[19:59] Ultimately, I hope that we can
[20:00] get to more communal living,
[20:03] tribal,
[20:04] not tribal exactly, but living
[20:06] in groups where our wealth is
[20:08] not measured by Bitcoin or
[20:11] dollars in the bank, but how
[20:14] many
[20:15] people can come to our aid when
[20:17] something goes wrong and how
[20:18] many resources we have combined.
[20:21] And
[20:22] that's what real value is.
[20:25] And that is what I would hope
[20:27] is the outcome of the book.
[20:29] And you might say, well, it's a
[20:30] weird outcome from what you're
[20:31] talking about.
[20:32] But no, I don't think that's the
[20:34] natural way for us to be living.
[20:37] And I would say that this
[20:39] weekend, you know, we're doing
[20:41] this big festival and some
[20:42] people quit at the last minute.
[20:43] And people that haven't worked
[20:44] for me in a year showed up and
[20:46] said they're going to work and
[20:47] called their friend who's an IT
[20:48] guy to fix this thing.
[20:49] And, you know, all that goodwill
[20:52] and grace that I have in the
[20:54] community from just
[20:56] Shows back up and that's more
[20:57] valuable than money.
[21:02] You know, there are
[21:03] political
[21:04] elements to what you've written
[21:07] about in your book only largely
[21:09] because. so many of these issues
[21:11] and these stories have become
[21:13] politicized over the last decade
[21:15] or two.
[21:16] But there is this element
[21:19] of
[21:20] being on the conservative end of
[21:22] the spectrum at its very
[21:24] foundation.
[21:26] Part
[21:27] of being a conservative is that
[21:28] there are
[21:29] values and morals and things
[21:32] that you have a desire to
[21:34] conserve.
[21:35] There is a desire to conserve
[21:37] things and preserve them for the
[21:38] future.
[21:40] And
[21:41] perhaps I shouldn't have framed
[21:43] this question quite in this way,
[21:45] but I'll just ask it from a very
[21:46] open perspective.
[21:48] What are the things...
[21:49] I love your title.
[21:50] I love the title, Debunked by
[21:52] Nature, because I think if we
[21:53] went back to the foundational
[21:55] spiritual principles that are
[21:57] evidenced in nature, that are
[21:59] displayed in nature
[22:01] as God's creation,
[22:03] then
[22:06] I just lost my train of thought.
[22:07] What was my question going to?
[22:08] Oh, my question was going to be
[22:09] with that with that title and
[22:11] with some of the things that
[22:12] you've written about.
[22:13] Oh, what is it that you want
[22:15] people to know about the book?
[22:19] That I'm totally honest, that
[22:21] I share exactly where I was and
[22:24] how I got to where I am.
[22:27] And when
[22:29] I say Mother Nature is
[22:30] conservative, I in the byline of
[22:33] the book, I do mean that in the
[22:37] sense that there is things that
[22:38] want to be conserved, that
[22:40] nature is always healing itself.
[22:41] It's always trying to get back
[22:43] to a homeostasis.
[22:45] And so I don't mean like
[22:48] nature is Trump Vance.
[22:50] That's not what I mean.
[22:53] I don't think nature cares one
[22:56] bit.
[22:57] What I mean is there
[23:01] is ways that are just
[23:03] foundationally positive of God's
[23:06] design that we can see in
[23:08] nature.
[23:09] And when we're being told
[23:10] things,
[23:12] socialism makes no sense in
[23:14] nature. I mean, if you were to
[23:15] take socialism and it doesn't,
[23:17] you never see your cows being
[23:18] like, you know what?
[23:19] I really think I should be
[23:20] sharing my grass with the
[23:22] neighbor's cows.
[23:23] He's over grazing down there.
[23:25] We should break the fence in and
[23:26] let them come in.
[23:28] This is not how it works.
[23:30] trees do plant share information
[23:33] share food underground yes and
[23:35] that's like all for the benefit
[23:37] of the whole and but
[23:40] it is in all of us to have
[23:42] survival and not to be selfish
[23:44] or that we should be narcissists
[23:45] or selfish or whatever but you
[23:47] can look that everything is
[23:49] going to want to survive and so
[23:52] this idea that we shouldn't,
[23:54] that like survival of the
[23:55] fittest or wanting to be strong
[23:56] or wanting to be successful or
[23:58] wanting to be entrepreneurial is
[24:00] bad. I think it's in nature.
[24:03] It's in us to want to do that.
[24:05] And that doesn't,
[24:08] it's not in us to want to do,
[24:11] some people get hard jobs and
[24:12] some people get easy jobs and
[24:13] everybody gets paid the exact
[24:14] same amount. That's not,
[24:16] it's not,
[24:17] it doesn't make any sense.
[24:18] Yeah, exactly.
[24:19] When you look at plants and the
[24:20] way that they share information
[24:22] and that they share resources,
[24:23] plant communities, microbial
[24:25] communities and so forth.
[24:26] And and
[24:28] one of the foundational aspects
[24:30] of that
[24:32] image is
[24:34] that they are all producers.
[24:37] Yes.
[24:38] You don't just you don't just
[24:40] get to just consume
[24:42] without producing in a natural
[24:44] ecosystem and expect to survive
[24:45] in the long term.
[24:47] No. And that's the craziest
[24:48] thing when people say, I just
[24:50] got an argument with someone on
[24:51] Instagram the other day.
[24:52] They're like,
[24:53] Do you think that people's
[24:55] income should be directly
[24:57] related to their outcome?
[24:58] And I was like, yes.
[25:02] And I was like, do you think the
[25:04] person that is greeting people
[25:06] at Walmart gets paid the same as
[25:08] the CEO?
[25:09] No, because they're
[25:10] like, if that greeter was gone,
[25:12] I largely think that greeter job
[25:14] is a kindness to give people
[25:16] jobs that
[25:17] can't otherwise work at another
[25:18] job.
[25:19] So this is not, it's not, it's
[25:22] not an integral part of the
[25:23] whole thing. If the CEO is gone,
[25:25] then things are going to start
[25:26] to fall apart. And this idea
[25:29] that, and then this person said,
[25:30] well, every, you believe
[25:31] everybody was made in God's
[25:32] image and everybody,
[25:34] yes, in God's eyes, everybody is
[25:36] of equal value, but you can't
[25:38] expect the owner of a business
[25:39] who's trying to support their
[25:41] family to pay every single
[25:43] person.
[25:44] Even when we say diversity in
[25:45] our culture, we mean,
[25:46] diversity in the way you make
[25:48] love or in the way that you
[25:52] identify as your gender or the
[25:55] color or how much melanin you
[25:56] have in your skin.
[25:57] But those people can do those
[25:59] things, but largely agree on
[26:00] everything else and have the
[26:02] same ideas.
[26:03] So they're not a diversity of
[26:04] function.
[26:05] They're just a diversity of like
[26:06] on
[26:08] the outside.
[26:09] And so for me, true diversity
[26:11] like exists in nature is all
[26:14] these different things,
[26:15] different species, different
[26:16] plants, different things.
[26:18] all together
[26:20] functioning for themselves and
[26:23] for each other.
[26:27] Molly, where can people find
[26:28] your book?
[26:30] You can go to debunked by nature
[26:31] dot com.
[26:33] You could go to Acres website
[26:35] because Acres published my book
[26:37] or you could go to Amazon.
[26:39] I know people hate Amazon, but I
[26:42] know people love free shipping.
[26:45] So people like free shipping
[26:47] more than they hate Amazon.
[26:49] That is what I know about life.
[26:53] And so and I also.
[26:55] write for Epoch Times like three
[26:56] times a week if people want to
[26:58] hear my weekly rants about
[27:00] whatever I think about is going
[27:02] on in the world.
[27:03] You can find me in the opinion
[27:05] section of Epoch Times every
[27:07] week.
[27:09] But can I ask you a question?
[27:12] That was the first one.
[27:15] OK, can I ask you?
[27:15] I'm going to ask you.
[27:17] So
[27:18] I have an idea.
[27:20] So do you know what Oakville is?
[27:22] Yes.
[27:24] Okay, so you know there's oak
[27:25] wilt going on like crazy in the
[27:26] hill country of Texas.
[27:29] So I have a theory and I have
[27:31] some preliminary evidence that
[27:33] my theory could be correct, but
[27:35] I want to run my theory by you.
[27:37] So oak wilt is happening in all
[27:38] these areas with highly alkaline
[27:40] soil,
[27:41] very little ground cover.
[27:43] It's mostly these trees are
[27:44] growing in just limestone or
[27:47] caliche as we call it, like
[27:48] crushed up.
[27:50] And so I
[27:52] put six inches of just regular
[27:54] mulch from the cedar trees,
[27:55] which are really juniper ash.
[27:56] But here in Texas, if you call
[27:57] them juniper ash, they look at
[27:59] you like you're an alien.
[28:00] So cedar trees
[28:02] mulch down and it's largely
[28:05] reversing oak wilt.
[28:07] And so I have a theory that
[28:08] there's oak wilt,
[28:09] there's not enough diversity of
[28:14] And so one thing is taking over
[28:17] and that is why the oak will is
[28:20] happening because I and I think
[28:21] when I'm bringing up the fungal
[28:23] load by adding 6 to 8 inches of
[28:25] mulch and
[28:27] then watering, it is reversing
[28:29] in two years.
[28:30] Totally. You can't even tell the
[28:31] trees had Oakville and I think
[28:34] that that is reversing Oakville.
[28:36] But everybody's like you.
[28:37] If you could just reverse
[28:38] Oakville with doing that, then
[28:40] everybody would doing that.
[28:41] And I'm like, well,
[28:43] Okay, I don't
[28:45] know if anybody else has tried
[28:46] it, but now I didn't take
[28:47] pictures at the beginning.
[28:48] It was literally just.
[28:49] the realtor said, you're going
[28:51] to have to take out these trees.
[28:52] They're almost dead.
[28:53] They were really bad shape.
[28:55] And I was like, well, they're
[28:56] giving me the littlest bit of
[28:57] shade at the late afternoon sun.
[28:59] So I planted pecan trees
[29:01] underneath them.
[29:01] And I thought, we'll just leave
[29:02] them here until the pecan trees
[29:04] get a little bit bigger.
[29:06] And that was my plan.
[29:07] But I put down a bunch of mulch
[29:09] and water because I planted the
[29:10] pecan trees.
[29:12] And now you can't even tell that
[29:14] they ever had oakwill.
[29:15] They're just totally shade,
[29:16] totally filled in, totally
[29:18] beautiful.
[29:19] And then the other one that's
[29:20] like the best looking tree on my
[29:22] property is next to where the
[29:23] guys drop all the mulch.
[29:25] You know, the trucks come and
[29:26] drop the mulch on my property.
[29:27] And this one is totally healed
[29:30] as well.
[29:31] So now I want to go and I look
[29:33] on my property and all the most
[29:34] sick trees are in the most
[29:36] caliche soil, no ground cover,
[29:38] just white
[29:39] soil.
[29:40] So I think I want to try this
[29:42] and take photos and document it
[29:44] is my next, I'm trying to get
[29:45] some,
[29:46] trying to get a TCQ permit so I
[29:48] can get all this mulch from the
[29:49] floods. I'm in Kerr County where
[29:51] all those floods just happened.
[29:52] And I'm trying to see if I could
[29:54] just put six to eight inches of
[29:56] mulch a couple times a year.
[29:58] And if I could reverse oat will.
[30:00] So what do you think of this
[30:01] theory?
[30:03] Well, it doesn't really matter
[30:04] what I think.
[30:04] It sounds like you already have
[30:05] some preliminary evidence that's
[30:06] worth pursuing.
[30:08] Yes, I do. But I don't know if
[30:09] you know the science, but I just
[30:11] don't.
[30:13] Well,
[30:13] any time, you know, it's
[30:17] once you start digging into
[30:19] the multitude of possible
[30:22] interactions and synergistic
[30:24] effects that a health and a
[30:25] functioning microbiome can have.
[30:28] I mean, look, the reality is,
[30:30] well,
[30:32] you go to citrus greening and
[30:33] citrus in Florida.
[30:34] As an example, here we have a
[30:36] bacterial infection of a plant's
[30:38] vascular tissue.
[30:40] And they're now
[30:43] one of the more recent
[30:44] innovations
[30:45] and I use the word innovations
[30:47] loosely here,
[30:48] is they're injecting antibiotics
[30:50] into the tree trunks.
[30:53] And okay,
[30:55] let's pause and ask for a
[30:56] second, where do antibiotics
[30:57] come from?
[31:00] They come from fungus in the
[31:03] soil.
[31:05] And what type
[31:07] of microbes are oak
[31:11] trees particularly dependent on?
[31:13] They're dependent on fungus.
[31:14] They thrive in a fungal dominant
[31:16] system, which by the way, is
[31:18] very challenged in
[31:20] an oxidized calcareous soil,
[31:22] such as the ones that you have.
[31:24] And so
[31:25] there are dozens of possible,
[31:29] probably hundreds or maybe even
[31:30] thousands of possible mechanisms
[31:32] and modes of action of different
[31:33] things that could be
[31:34] contributing to that
[31:35] regeneration.
[31:36] The reality is,
[31:39] We could spend a lot of time
[31:41] trying to identify them and
[31:42] understand them, or we can just
[31:44] go ahead with a cultural
[31:45] practice that has observed to
[31:47] bring results,
[31:49] try to measure and document
[31:50] those results and say, here's
[31:52] what we did and here's what
[31:53] worked.
[31:54] And
[31:54] let the research catch up with
[31:57] the practical application, which
[31:59] seems to be the recurring
[32:00] pattern in the most innovative
[32:02] landscape stewards.
[32:05] Yeah, and I'm seeing it.
[32:06] I think it's everywhere, not
[32:07] just on the oak trees.
[32:10] bale grazed last year on my
[32:13] fields because there was little
[32:15] to no rain last winter.
[32:17] And so you can see where the
[32:19] round bales were.
[32:21] Right now, the swergum is like
[32:22] as tall as I am and been grazed
[32:24] once or twice already,
[32:26] but it's that tall.
[32:28] And everywhere else, it's like
[32:29] calf, ankle, knee high,
[32:31] wherever.
[32:32] And it's not even like, oh,
[32:34] well,
[32:34] I was feeding swergum hay, so
[32:36] it's extra seeds got dropped in
[32:38] that area because I was feeding
[32:40] grass.
[32:41] So
[32:41] just the residue of the circle
[32:45] where the bale was, just that
[32:46] carbon being left on the soil
[32:50] has these circles on my whole
[32:52] field.
[32:53] that the hay is as tall as me
[32:56] versus below my knee.
[32:58] And so my thought, and I don't
[33:00] know the economics and that's
[33:02] why I want to try to get all the
[33:03] waste from the river flooding if
[33:06] I can get that carbon.
[33:09] But I think just putting a
[33:11] little bit of carbon on my
[33:13] fields is going to be far more
[33:15] useful than any kind of
[33:17] application of nitrogen
[33:19] fertilizer or manure because I
[33:21] have done that.
[33:23] I've done manure, I've done this
[33:24] and seen very little to no
[33:26] results. But you can literally
[33:27] see these circles exactly the
[33:29] size of the round bales all the
[33:31] way across my field where the
[33:33] hay is so tall.
[33:34] And so I
[33:35] don't know, but
[33:37] I think it's the same kind of
[33:38] thing that's happening with the
[33:39] oak trees. And I want to figure
[33:40] out how can I get enough hay or
[33:43] wood chips to cover the whole
[33:45] field.
[33:46] I also had this dead spot we
[33:47] couldn't heal where water was
[33:49] just sitting.
[33:51] And I put six inches of mulch
[33:53] there.
[33:54] It was like dead pan water would
[33:56] not go down into it and there
[33:58] would not nothing was happening
[34:00] and and nothing was growing
[34:01] because it was just like
[34:02] concrete. Basically, it was
[34:04] like. Mud puddle that would last
[34:06] very long time and then concrete
[34:08] once it was dried and I put wood
[34:11] chips there and Bermuda grass
[34:13] filled in over it.
[34:15] In a matter of 5 weeks, even
[34:16] though there's barely any
[34:17] burrito grass in that field.
[34:19] And so I think there's plenty of
[34:21] nitrogen in my soil.
[34:22] There's just no fungal load to
[34:24] make it available.
[34:25] And that's my observation, not
[34:27] like a fact or whatever, but
[34:28] that's what I'm noticing is that
[34:30] what we need here in this soil
[34:32] is is any kind of organic
[34:35] fertilizer.
[34:35] that's just desperate for
[34:36] organic matter.
[34:38] Well, I want to ask you about
[34:39] the bale grazing, just so that I
[34:41] understand it clearly.
[34:43] You're saying right where the
[34:44] circle,
[34:45] where the hay bale is, you're
[34:47] having this response.
[34:49] Is it in that immediate, like,
[34:50] is it a five foot diameter
[34:52] circle or is it all of the area
[34:53] surrounding that where the
[34:54] livestock were trampling?
[34:56] Just like the five or six foot
[34:59] circle.
[35:00] Really,
[35:01] that is intriguing.
[35:02] I'll take a picture for you and
[35:04] text it to you.
[35:05] What is interesting in your
[35:07] caliche soils,
[35:10] it was just
[35:11] an interesting conversation,
[35:12] serendipitous conversation,
[35:13] because I was just writing an
[35:14] article about this in response
[35:16] to a number of different
[35:17] questions that I received.
[35:18] But
[35:19] anytime we have soils that have
[35:21] high levels of carbonates or
[35:22] bicarbonates and so forth, there
[35:24] is
[35:25] this idea that in order to
[35:26] regulate pH, we have to acidify
[35:28] the soil.
[35:29] And
[35:30] Of course, acidifying the soil
[35:32] with a chemistry approach
[35:33] requires a very expensive
[35:36] sledgehammer and a very big one
[35:38] as well with elemental sulfur
[35:39] applications or what have you.
[35:42] And the approach that you're
[35:44] describing underneath the oak
[35:45] trees
[35:46] and possibly also with the hay
[35:48] mulch residue is when you have
[35:50] an
[35:51] availability of food source
[35:53] carbon
[35:54] that fungal populations can
[35:56] begin to thrive.
[35:58] Fungal populations produce
[36:00] substantial quantities of acids.
[36:05] They convert high carbon residue
[36:07] into,
[36:09] you could almost think of them
[36:10] as being an acid generator,
[36:11] if that is what the environment
[36:13] requires for them to thrive.
[36:15] And in this environment,
[36:16] that is what the environment
[36:17] requires for them to thrive.
[36:18] So they generate a lot of acid
[36:20] and create a lot of acidity,
[36:22] which creates a pathway for lots
[36:25] of nitrogen fixation and other
[36:26] types of microbial activity.
[36:27] So you can generate nitrogen by
[36:30] producing acid.
[36:30] levels of carbon in the type of
[36:32] environment that you're
[36:32] describing and in many other
[36:33] environments for that matter.
[36:35] And you can see it in the people
[36:37] that clear cut.
[36:38] You'll be like, wow, why does
[36:39] their grass look so good?
[36:40] And you realize they clear cut a
[36:42] cedar forest and
[36:45] just had it all shredded down.
[36:48] And so the reason that their
[36:49] grass looks so thick compared
[36:51] to, say, my grass is that it has
[36:53] all that carbon.
[36:55] And so I totally agree with it.
[36:58] And in California, it totally
[36:59] was different. If I had put the
[37:01] amount of mulch that I can put
[37:02] here, like wood chips on
[37:05] anything, it would steal from
[37:06] the plants and the plants would
[37:08] turn yellow.
[37:09] But in this environment,
[37:10] it seems that the soil just, the
[37:12] more
[37:14] carbon I can put on top of the
[37:16] soil,
[37:17] the better the plants are doing,
[37:18] which is a totally different
[37:20] thing to what would be happening
[37:21] in California if I'd put that
[37:23] much
[37:23] wood chip mulch, it would steal
[37:25] carbon, it would steal nitrogen
[37:26] from the plants, and it would be
[37:28] a totally different thing.
[37:30] And that's why I think it does
[37:31] have to do with what you're
[37:31] saying is the acidity and that.
[37:34] And everybody here told me when
[37:35] I moved here, don't put cedar
[37:37] chips, don't put juniper chips.
[37:38] It's going to kill everything.
[37:40] And I was like, so weird.
[37:42] Why would God make this thing
[37:43] that comes into this arid
[37:44] environment and grows
[37:46] everywhere? If it drops its
[37:48] needles, I look underneath the
[37:50] juniper trees and there's
[37:51] like this much black soil on top
[37:54] of rock.
[37:56] Can't imagine God would design
[37:58] this thing that would kill my
[37:59] planes. Just chip it up and see
[38:01] what happens.
[38:03] But there's a lot of folklore
[38:05] about the cedar,
[38:07] like, oh, if you cook pizza with
[38:08] it, you're going to die.
[38:09] It's poison you or whatever,
[38:10] like all these things.
[38:12] And
[38:12] we were ignorant.
[38:13] And we had already been cooking,
[38:14] making pizza and bread in our
[38:16] bread oven with the juniper ash
[38:18] when we were told it was that
[38:20] you couldn't do it.
[38:22] And as it turns out, it's
[38:23] totally fine. You can totally do
[38:25] it.
[38:26] It's not ideal because it burns
[38:27] fast. It's very good wood
[38:28] starter.
[38:29] It's very good oven starter.
[38:31] It's not very good like coals,
[38:33] long lasting coals.
[38:35] But yeah, it's interesting
[38:37] because
[38:37] it's that kind of ideas where
[38:39] we're so disconnected from
[38:40] nature where you're looking at
[38:41] these white cliffs and the only
[38:43] thing that's growing on them is
[38:45] these juniper ash and then
[38:46] you're looking right below and
[38:48] the mulch that's being dropped
[38:50] from those cedar needles and
[38:52] you're saying and it's this
[38:54] beautiful black mulch soil
[38:56] decomposing under those trees
[38:58] and then people are saying oh
[39:00] it's very bad for your garden.
[39:03] Okay,
[39:04] seems very good.
[39:05] It's making soil on top of a
[39:06] white rock shelf that nothing
[39:09] else is on.
[39:10] Well, the key to what you're
[39:11] describing is actually observing
[39:14] and paying attention to what it
[39:15] is that you're looking at,
[39:17] seeing what you look at.
[39:19] It is.
[39:21] And we don't. We don't.
[39:22] And I've made those mistakes
[39:24] too. I've
[39:25] I've made an assumption, like, I
[39:27] planted 40 ,000 dollars worth of
[39:29] pecans in a field because there
[39:31] was pecans growing around the
[39:32] edges, wild pecans that seem
[39:34] prolific.
[39:34] Great. I'm going to plant pecans
[39:36] here.
[39:38] The truth is the way that that
[39:39] field slopes.
[39:42] Those pecans in the gullies
[39:44] around the edges are totally
[39:45] fine on the field.
[39:47] There's just not enough rain
[39:48] here. And so I lost 40 ,000
[39:50] dollars worth of pecans and we
[39:51] had 100 days, over 100, even
[39:54] with irrigation,
[39:55] those young pecans couldn't
[39:56] survive.
[39:58] And people are like, oh, well,
[39:58] it was just an anomaly.
[40:00] Well, no, I wasn't actually
[40:01] being that observant and seeing
[40:03] that.
[40:04] The field is was pretty arid and
[40:07] not that much grass growing on
[40:10] the whole high side of that
[40:11] orchard. And on the whole low
[40:13] side, there's Bermuda grass and
[40:15] there's a lot of
[40:16] pecans growing, but it's all in
[40:18] this area. That's collecting
[40:19] water and. off of a greater
[40:21] watershed.
[40:22] And so I didn't then replant all
[40:25] those pecans. I put in Asian
[40:27] pears and peaches and things
[40:29] that are doing better in this
[40:31] environment with less water.
[40:34] But even I've been,
[40:36] yeah, made mistakes,
[40:38] ego -driven mistakes where I'm
[40:41] just like, looks like not really
[40:43] observing kind of
[40:47] I don't know, like observing on
[40:48] the outside, but not looking
[40:49] deeper than,
[40:51] oh, I see pecans, plant pecans.
[40:52] Like, well,
[40:53] actually the environment from,
[40:55] at least on my property here in
[40:56] Texas, the environment in a
[40:57] hundred feet from each other
[40:59] could be a totally different
[41:00] thing. And I have these big,
[41:03] beautiful fields with black soil
[41:05] that's all ran off the hills for
[41:07] years, right? This big valley,
[41:09] but
[41:10] you go right across the farm
[41:12] road and it's just white
[41:14] caliche.
[41:15] So I can't expect
[41:17] That whatever's happening on
[41:18] this side of the road can also
[41:20] happen on this side of the road.
[41:22] And
[41:22] that's just
[41:24] how it is here.
[41:26] It's not all the same.
[41:27] And so we have, we can't just
[41:29] say, like, in Arkansas, you can
[41:31] grow this in Florida.
[41:32] You can grow this in Texas,
[41:34] because we have to look even I
[41:37] have an orchard that has these.
[41:41] almost like a river of red dirt
[41:43] that goes through the black dirt
[41:45] or a river of white dirt that
[41:47] where it's these veins of
[41:49] totally other soil and
[41:51] you'll see the trees planted in
[41:53] a row and then there's this one
[41:54] little tree that's in that clay
[41:56] dirt or in that caliche dirt
[41:57] that there's just you know it
[42:00] just isn't growing it's a it's
[42:01] surviving like but it's not
[42:04] growing and so you have to
[42:05] observe all those things um and
[42:07] not just try to like you said
[42:09] sludge hammer it out
[42:11] This is one of the things
[42:13] that... learning
[42:17] from others and learning what
[42:18] other people are working on and
[42:20] what they're observing is
[42:22] so valuable to train our own
[42:25] observations.
[42:26] But also,
[42:28] we have to really understand
[42:31] their context and how their
[42:33] context differs from our own.
[42:35] You know, there's
[42:36] in earlier in our conversation,
[42:38] you were talking about how you
[42:40] one
[42:41] of your desired outcomes is for,
[42:44] you know, It returned to more
[42:45] resilient communities where you
[42:46] have this strength within
[42:48] communities.
[42:49] And one of the things that
[42:51] I'm challenged by is that there
[42:53] are many
[42:54] people who have a deep and
[42:56] authentic desire to be
[42:57] successful homesteaders or
[42:59] smaller scale producers.
[43:00] Perhaps they want to put out a
[43:01] couple acres of orchard or
[43:02] whatever the case might be.
[43:05] And
[43:05] they
[43:07] there
[43:09] is this I
[43:13] don't know quite how to frame
[43:14] it, but there's this geographic
[43:15] experience bias
[43:17] where
[43:19] so well,
[43:21] There's this experienced grower
[43:23] five miles down the road
[43:24] who
[43:25] has a lot of experience with
[43:27] this peach variety or that
[43:29] walnut variety or whatever the
[43:30] case might be. And therefore,
[43:32] that's what I'm going to try.
[43:34] Or I'm taking a certain approach
[43:35] to fertility management or
[43:36] irrigation management.
[43:38] And I really appreciated your
[43:40] anecdote about the differences
[43:42] within 100 feet, because those
[43:44] differences do exist.
[43:47] And in fact, they exist in the
[43:48] majority of ecosystems.
[43:50] There are some exceptions, but
[43:51] the majority of ecosystems,
[43:52] there is a significant
[43:53] variation.
[43:55] And
[43:55] the experience of someone a
[43:59] few miles away who has had
[44:00] experience with an awesome
[44:01] variety might transfer to your
[44:04] situation,
[44:05] or it might not.
[44:08] And
[44:09] the
[44:10] that I'm
[44:11] particularly frustrated by,
[44:14] frustrated might be a strong
[44:15] word, but
[44:16] the piece that I'm particularly
[44:18] disturbed by is that people then
[44:20] try a
[44:22] local recommendation or an
[44:24] expert recommendation and
[44:26] they don't have success with it.
[44:28] And their first conclusion is
[44:30] this variety doesn't work here.
[44:32] This variety didn't work for me.
[44:34] Well,
[44:35] it might be worthwhile asking
[44:36] the question of why not?
[44:38] Was it planted in the shade?
[44:39] Was it a different environment?
[44:41] So there's, I'm using a variety
[44:43] of framework to describe this
[44:45] particular question, but
[44:47] I think it's
[44:49] so easy,
[44:50] without a
[44:52] lot of experience, it's so easy
[44:54] to fall into a ditch on both
[44:56] sides of the road.
[44:57] One
[44:57] is venerating local experience
[45:00] excessively, and the other is
[45:03] being too dismissive of whatever
[45:05] didn't work for you without
[45:07] really trying to understand why.
[45:09] And I'm using the variety
[45:11] framework for this conversation
[45:12] deliberately because
[45:14] I see so many varieties
[45:18] that are clearly superior.
[45:20] The superior varieties of apples
[45:22] and tree fruit and just there
[45:24] are very superior varieties who
[45:26] are not in commercial production
[45:27] because they have a flaw of some
[45:30] type. Perhaps they don't store
[45:31] particularly well,
[45:33] or they're not as sweet.
[45:34] They have a remarkable flavor,
[45:36] but they're not as sweet as
[45:37] people are used to.
[45:38] But you can compensate for those
[45:39] things
[45:40] with nutrition management
[45:42] locally in your context.
[45:45] And so I see people working with
[45:47] these varieties that are just
[45:49] having incredible, amazing
[45:50] experiences, and it's because
[45:52] they have learned how to manage
[45:54] them in their context.
[45:56] And that knowledge can be
[45:57] transferred,
[45:58] but in far too many cases,
[46:00] people try to transplant the
[46:03] genetics and the varieties
[46:05] without transplanting the
[46:06] associative management that is
[46:07] required to make it to thrive.
[46:09] So anyway, I'm going on a rant
[46:10] here. It's time for me to shut
[46:11] up. No, I think that that, you
[46:13] know, my husband grew up in
[46:14] Mexico, which in some ways has a
[46:16] similar environment to where we
[46:18] are in Texas, but in other ways,
[46:20] not at all. It's much colder
[46:21] here in the winter time and
[46:23] stuff like that.
[46:24] And he got very frustrated with
[46:26] corn,
[46:28] squash and sesame seeds, which
[46:30] are what he's accustomed to be
[46:31] able to grow very, very easily.
[46:34] And this last year, so twice he
[46:37] planted sesame seeds and either
[46:39] not enough rain and you don't
[46:41] need very much rain for sesame
[46:42] seeds, but we had a hundred
[46:44] days, like I said, over a
[46:45] hundred and other situations.
[46:47] And then there was a
[46:49] grasshopper year that was just
[46:51] so crazy that the entire field
[46:53] was left with only three stalks
[46:54] of sesame because, uh,
[46:58] the grasshoppers were just so
[46:59] crazy.
[47:00] Well, because the rain has been
[47:01] so erratic and all this stuff,
[47:03] instead of giving up, what my
[47:04] husband did this year is in one
[47:07] of our orchards that has pretty
[47:08] wide rows, 25 feet, he decided
[47:10] to take the no -till seed drail
[47:12] out every two weeks and plant a
[47:14] couple rows of sesame.
[47:16] And then he was like,
[47:18] so he was
[47:20] basically hedging against the
[47:22] rain and hedging against the
[47:26] grasshoppers.
[47:27] So did we lose some to
[47:28] grasshoppers? Yes.
[47:29] We lost a few rows to that.
[47:30] Did we lose some to not enough
[47:32] rain? Yes. But does he have
[47:33] several rows right now that are
[47:34] going to be able to be
[47:35] harvested?
[47:36] Yes.
[47:37] And so I think that that was a
[47:38] unique way to look at it instead
[47:40] of saying like,
[47:41] okay, I'm just going to keep
[47:42] planting a whole field and then
[47:43] something bad is going to
[47:44] happen.
[47:45] Now he marked this down and I
[47:46] said, well, are you going to
[47:47] plant this exactly the same next
[47:48] year? He goes, no, I'm probably
[47:49] going to do the same thing until
[47:51] I have more knowledge because it
[47:53] doesn't make any sense when
[47:56] we don't
[47:57] because the rain can be sporadic
[47:58] and how the rain comes is going
[47:59] to impact. impact how the
[48:00] grasshoppers come.
[48:01] And we need it to be coming up
[48:03] in rain after the major
[48:05] grasshoppers have already been
[48:07] eaten by some of the predators.
[48:09] So I don't know how to exactly
[48:11] measure that.
[48:12] And so that's what he's been
[48:14] doing. And then this year he's
[48:17] planted, we've had not very
[48:18] great success with corn and he
[48:20] just had this idea, I'm going to
[48:22] plant corn really late in the
[48:23] year.
[48:24] And so he planted corn a month
[48:27] ago,
[48:28] and it's actually looking really
[48:30] great. And we're going to be
[48:32] able to have it as decoration
[48:33] for the pumpkin patch.
[48:34] We're going to make a maze
[48:35] through it.
[48:36] And then we believe it'll be a
[48:40] harvestable crop of corn.
[48:41] I don't have any
[48:43] can't say for sure, but right
[48:44] now it's as tall as I am and
[48:46] starting to look like it's going
[48:48] to head out. This is very late
[48:50] in any way that I have ever
[48:51] thought of growing corn.
[48:52] I've never thought of planting
[48:54] it in the end of August.
[48:56] It's not something I ever would
[48:57] have thought, but he was like,
[48:59] it's not working in the spring.
[49:01] We're having all these issues.
[49:03] I'm going to try
[49:05] to
[49:07] do it in the fall.
[49:08] And so,
[49:09] Anyways, it's just an interest.
[49:11] He's,
[49:11] I think when there's nobody else
[49:13] doing a lot of agriculture
[49:14] around us, except for cows, this
[49:16] is like cows, cows, cows, cows,
[49:17] cows, because the terrain, not
[49:20] many people have these valley
[49:22] fields that we have.
[49:23] So, because it's mostly all
[49:25] hills, the majority of
[49:27] everybody's land is hills.
[49:28] And so, because of that, when we
[49:30] went to the Texas A &M Ag
[49:32] extension,
[49:32] nobody had, they were like,
[49:33] Bermuda grass and cows, just
[49:35] Bermuda grass and cows, just
[49:36] stick to that.
[49:37] And so,
[49:38] In some ways, it's been a little
[49:40] bit freeing because my
[49:41] experiences in upstate New York
[49:43] and in California and his is in
[49:44] Mexico. And then nobody had a
[49:46] lot. There wasn't a lot of local
[49:48] experts to tell us anything.
[49:49] So, it's been a little bit
[49:50] freeing for us to just have to
[49:52] try things. And, of course,
[49:54] there's been so much.
[49:55] losses,
[49:56] but I do think that we're
[49:57] gaining valuable knowledge that
[49:59] can help other people in the
[50:01] area.
[50:02] And we just started propagating
[50:03] trees because people always come
[50:05] and go, oh my gosh, your fig
[50:06] trees are so beautiful.
[50:07] Oh my God, this is so good.
[50:09] So we've started ordering extra
[50:11] trees and propagating trees and
[50:12] we've made a little garden
[50:14] center on the ranch.
[50:15] So when people come to the
[50:16] restaurant and they see these
[50:17] beautiful figs, I can say, well,
[50:19] yes, at least we know they grow
[50:20] in this environment because I
[50:22] noticed that the grocery stores
[50:24] and the garden centers are
[50:25] selling these varieties that are
[50:27] actually not conducive to
[50:28] growing in
[50:30] this environment at all.
[50:31] I don't think that there's.
[50:33] Not enough chill hours, not, you
[50:35] know, just like factually not
[50:37] and I'm actually open to
[50:39] experimenting things like in
[50:40] different environments.
[50:41] I'm super into that.
[50:42] I did a coffee experiment in
[50:43] California with the university
[50:45] and I've done some longer chill
[50:47] hour apples in California as an
[50:49] experiment, but I'm just saying
[50:51] when you're.
[50:53] garden, you go to the garden
[50:54] center, you expect that they are
[50:55] picking stuff that is for your
[50:57] environment, that it's not an
[50:58] experiment.
[50:59] And I've noticed that that's not
[51:00] true. So I do think that we're
[51:02] coming up with valuable
[51:03] information,
[51:04] me and my husband in this
[51:06] experimenting time.
[51:08] And of course, it's scary and
[51:10] dangerous and financially,
[51:12] but I do feel like valuable
[51:14] information is being collected
[51:16] out of it.
[51:20] What you're describing is the
[51:22] the essence of a lot of what
[51:24] needs to return to many
[51:26] different communities.
[51:27] There is a great deal of
[51:28] knowledge that is still held by
[51:30] people who've been on the land
[51:31] for a long time.
[51:33] But there are also a lot of
[51:34] things.
[51:35] There's a lot of information
[51:35] that we've lost.
[51:37] And there are also many things
[51:38] that we haven't discovered
[51:39] because we've not been willing
[51:40] to try.
[51:42] So kudos, kudos to you for
[51:44] experimenting. There is a little
[51:45] bit of that happening in Central
[51:47] Texas of like kind of a
[51:49] rigidness and some information
[51:51] being forgotten and some people
[51:53] failing and then people get
[51:55] scared and they don't want to
[51:56] fail. But
[51:57] I looked up a hundred years ago
[51:59] before refrigeration,
[52:01] the Central Texas area, because
[52:03] of the mild winters, was growing
[52:05] a lot of vegetables, was growing
[52:06] a lot of food for this area.
[52:09] But that's not the truth
[52:11] anymore.
[52:12] And we put in,
[52:15] 1500 fruit trees, 20 of each
[52:17] variety.
[52:18] And so I think that we will have
[52:20] a lot of information.
[52:21] They're only four years old
[52:22] right now. So, but I think
[52:23] moving forward, we will have a
[52:25] lot of information that we can
[52:27] share with other people.
[52:29] And the other day, this older
[52:30] gentleman drove up onto my ranch
[52:32] and he said, what made you put
[52:34] that orchard there?
[52:35] And I said, oh, it was the best
[52:36] piece of
[52:37] Uh, place on the ranch for an
[52:39] orchard has a slope.
[52:40] So the cold air will fall down
[52:42] off of it and it's protected on
[52:44] both sides by trees and the
[52:46] angle for the sun.
[52:47] And and he said, do you know
[52:49] that my grandfather and great
[52:51] grandfather grew their vegetable
[52:52] gardens in that 5 acres?
[52:54] They grew their corn.
[52:56] And he said, it's interesting
[52:57] that the first thing you guys
[52:58] planted when you got here, I
[52:59] noticed the first thing that you
[53:01] guys planted was that area.
[53:03] And I said, what was the best
[53:04] area to plant anything on the
[53:07] ranch? And he said, well,
[53:08] but I just, how did you,
[53:10] how, like, he just couldn't
[53:11] imagine how I knew generations
[53:13] later that his grandfather and
[53:15] great grandfather had used that
[53:16] area.
[53:18] And it was very interesting to
[53:20] him. And he said, the people
[53:21] that bought it, they ignored
[53:22] that area. They just used the
[53:24] big fields because they're
[53:25] flatter and easier.
[53:27] Nobody ever planted anything
[53:28] there since we sold the property
[53:30] 30 years before you bought it.
[53:33] And I said, I saw it right away
[53:34] that it was an excellent place
[53:37] to plant.
[53:38] And so I think that there is
[53:40] information in our communities.
[53:43] And I actually took to driving
[53:44] around and looking in people's
[53:46] yards at varieties of trees when
[53:49] I first moved here because and
[53:51] asking people can I take a
[53:52] cutting I've like snuck under
[53:55] fences and taken cuttings of
[53:56] like
[53:57] a rogue pomegranate tree.
[54:00] growing in no water out the side
[54:02] of a hillside and like taking
[54:03] some cuttings. But I've really
[54:05] just taken to trying to observe
[54:07] because there is very little
[54:08] information specifically for my
[54:11] region that's been preserved.
[54:13] Well, Molly, I want to say thank
[54:15] you for all the work that you're
[54:15] doing. Thanks for the book.
[54:17] I hope that it becomes very
[54:18] popular and that lots of people
[54:19] read it and it can contribute to
[54:22] a shift in awareness.
[54:24] I hope so too. Thank you so much
[54:25] for having me on.
[54:26] The team at AEA and I are
[54:28] dedicated to bringing this show
[54:30] to you because we believe that
[54:31] knowledge and information is the
[54:33] foundation of successful
[54:35] regenerative systems.
[54:37] At AEA, we believe that growing
[54:39] better quality food and making
[54:41] more money from your crops is
[54:42] possible.
[54:43] And since 2006,
[54:44] we've worked with leading
[54:45] professional growers to help
[54:47] them do just that.
[54:48] At AEA, we don't guess, we test,
[54:51] we analyze.
[54:52] and we provide recommendations
[54:54] based on scientific data,
[54:56] knowledge, and experience.
[54:57] We've developed products that
[54:58] are uniquely positioned to help
[55:00] growers make more money with
[55:01] regenerative agriculture.
[55:03] If you are a professional grower
[55:04] who believes in testing instead
[55:06] of guessing,
[55:08] someone who believes in a
[55:09] better, more regenerative way to
[55:10] grow,
[55:11] visit advancingecoag .com and
[55:13] contact us to see if AEA is
[55:15] right for you.
[55:17] Thank you for listening, and we
[55:18] look forward to working with
[55:19] you.

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