# Episode 190: What the 1980s Farm Crisis Should Have Taught Us with Wendy Johnson

An episode of [Regenerative Agriculture Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1372359995), 1 Oct 2026, 1 h 25 min.

Audio: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/regenerativeagriculture/Ep_190_-_Wendy.mp3?dest-id=4976130

Wendy Mariko Johnson farms in Floyd County, Iowa, near Charles City. She grew up on an Iowa farm, left at 18 in the 1990s for an 18-year career in the Los Angeles fashion industry, and returned in 2010 with her husband Johnny Rafkin. Having watched farms close across Iowa in the 1980s, she came back determined to follow the three things that carried her parents through that era: diversification, low cost of production, and little to no debt. Today Wendy runs two businesses from the same land. Jóia Food & Fiber Farm carries 160 ewes, 25 cows and their calves, plus hogs, chickens, and ducks across roughly 130 certified organic acres, alongside 15 acres of Kernza and more than 6,000 trees planted over the past decade. Jóia Sleep turns the farm's wool into comforters, mattress toppers, and pillows. She also co-manages Center View Farms, her family's thousand-acre commodity operation, and serves as vice president of the Perennial Promise Growers Cooperative, co-founder of 99 Counties, and chair of Iowa's USDA Farm Service Agency state committee. Her current question is how to take what she has proven on 130 acres and extend it across a thousand. In this episode, John and Wendy discuss: • What carried her parents through the 1980s farm crisis, and why it still applies • How direct marketing made her a price maker instead of a price taker • Why the thousand-acre corn and soybean farm is becoming obsolete • How Kernza thrived through a 10-inch drought year and a 12-inch rain month • Why she hires custom operators instead of owning machinery • What it would take to treat agrarian labor like the skilled trades • Whether the next generation wants land ownership or just land access • Why she would rather be paid on practice and nutrition than on yield • Four years of silvopasture planted over field tile Additional ResourcesTo listen to the podcast episode featuring Austin Unruh on integrating trees into working pastures, please visit: https://advancingecoag.com/podcast/episode-97-integrating-trees-into-working-pastures-with-austin-unruh/ To learn more about Jóia Food & Fiber Farm, please visit: https://www.joiafoodfarm.com/ To learn more about Jóia Sleep, please visit: https://www.joiasleep.com/ To learn more about 99 Counties, please visit: https://99counties.com/ To learn more about the Perennial Promise Growers' Cooperative, please visit: https://perennialpromise.com/ Learn more about AEA's regenerative programs and products: https://www.advancingecoag.com About John KempfJohn Kempf is the founder of Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA). A top expert in biological and regenerative farming, John founded AEA in 2006 to help fellow farmers by providing the education, tools, and strategies that will have a global effect on the food supply and those who grow it. Through intense study and the knowledge gleaned from many industry leaders, John is building a comprehensive systems-based approach to plant nutrition – a system solidly based on the sciences of plant physiology, mineral nutrition, and soil microbiology. Support For This Show & Helping You GrowSince 2006, AEA has been on a mission to help growers become more resilient, efficient, and profitable with regenerative agriculture. AEA works directly with growers to apply its unique line of liquid mineral crop nutrition products and biological inoculants. Informed by cutting-edge plant and soil data-gathering techniques, AEA's science-based programs empower farm operations to meet the crop quality markers that matter the most. AEA has created real and lasting change on millions of acres with its products and data-driven services by working hand-in-hand with growers to produce healthier soil, stronger crops, and higher profits. Beyond working on the ground with growers, AEA leads in regenerative agriculture media and education, producing and distributing the popular and highly-regarded Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, inspiring webinars, and other educational content that serve…

## Transcript

[0:00] Hi friends, this is John.
[0:02] Welcome back to the Region of Agriculture
[0:05] podcast where we have all kinds of fun
[0:08] conversations. Over the last several weeks
[0:10] and months, this has been kind of an
[0:13] ongoing challenge for me personally as I
[0:16] look at the macroeconomic landscape and
[0:19] the farming landscape.
[0:20] Over the last couple of years, many
[0:22] growers have been really challenged and we
[0:25] get to work with many growers in
[0:28] challenging financial conditions and to
[0:30] try to help them navigate through that
[0:33] situation. And even before getting started
[0:35] or kind of in parallel and getting started
[0:38] with in this agricultural pathway, I was
[0:41] always fascinated by macroeconomics.
[0:42] I studied raw materials economics in
[0:44] various different economic domains,
[0:46] looking at the background of how banking
[0:48] really works. There's a number of really
[0:51] fascinating conversations that could be
[0:52] had there. I would recommend people look
[0:55] at Richard Warner and some of the things
[0:58] that are the things that he's worked on
[1:00] over the years. But you, we look at where
[1:03] Agricultural production system is
[1:05] currently and combine that and index that
[1:07] with our macroeconomic scenario.
[1:09] And anyone who truly pays attention soon
[1:11] becomes aware that we're actually in a
[1:13] very vulnerable position as a country
[1:16] here, not just as a country, but here in
[1:19] the US but also internationally.
[1:20] We're quite vulnerable.
[1:21] Arguably, we don't have, we have a lot of
[1:24] fragility. So when you look at mass and
[1:27] overall production, it looks like we have
[1:30] abundant production, but we're actually,
[1:31] we have a very fragile system.
[1:33] We don't have enough people coming into
[1:36] agriculture. And so, how do we land this
[1:39] plane smoothly? How do we manage and how
[1:41] do we navigate to avoid a lot of
[1:44] turbulence? So, this has been a question
[1:47] that's been in the back of my mind for
[1:50] some time, but I've been thinking about
[1:52] how do we, how do system that we're in.
[1:55] And today I am delighted to have a
[1:58] conversation with Wendy Johnson from Joya
[2:01] Farm. And I was just having a conversation
[2:04] with Wendy a bit ago.
[2:06] This is, we live at a moment in time
[2:10] where the challenges have never been
[2:12] greater and the opportunities have never
[2:15] been greater, at least within my very
[2:18] short lifetime. So, Wendy, thank you.
[2:20] Thank you for joining us me and for being
[2:24] willing to have this conversation.
[2:26] I'd love to just, there are so many
[2:29] topics, so many things for us to talk
[2:32] about, but I think perhaps as a starting
[2:35] point to set the stage, tell us a bit
[2:39] about your personal background and
[2:41] journey, and then also the farm and the
[2:44] enterprise that you have developed as
[2:47] you've been thinking about these various
[2:49] challenges. Yeah, thanks, John.
[2:51] I'm so excited to be here and talking with
[2:55] you today. Joy Food and Fiber Farm is a
[2:58] perennial based farm.
[2:59] I came back to farm in 2010.
[3:02] I left, this is kind of a second career
[3:06] for me. I left when I was 18 years
[3:10] old, back in the 90s, and came back 18
[3:13] years later. So I grew up here in
[3:17] Charleston, Iowa. We're in Northeast Iowa
[3:19] for 18 years, came back 18 years later
[3:22] with this kind of new realization about
[3:25] agriculture. And I had this understanding
[3:28] better understanding of our food system
[3:31] and our agricultural system.
[3:32] When I left through some travels to
[3:35] Brazil, to Japan, to the Ukraine, and
[3:38] across the United States.
[3:40] And came back with this you know, this
[3:43] is a challenge. I felt like Iowa is
[3:47] kind of this ground zero place because I
[3:50] grew up in the 1980s.
[3:52] I witnessed firsthand how many farms
[3:55] closed up. Farmers were, we just didn't
[3:58] have a Lot of farmers anymore.
[4:00] Farmers were getting out of business, they
[4:03] were going bankrupt.
[4:04] You thought that then, and it's just even
[4:08] a fraction now of what it was following
[4:11] the 80s. Yes, and I want to get
[4:15] into that because we are, what have we
[4:18] learned from that?
[4:19] And we're kind of headed into a, we
[4:23] have a trajectory that we're kind of
[4:26] headed into a similar place.
[4:28] And so with that kind of Historical
[4:31] background of just like the way that my
[4:34] parents were able to survive the 1980s was
[4:38] diversification. It also was being a
[4:40] lowcost producer, and it was also having
[4:43] little to no debt.
[4:46] And so looking at that as a model
[4:49] of how we can survive a time and
[4:53] an era that we are in today, and
[4:56] looking into the future that it's, I don't
[5:00] think it's really going to You know, go
[5:03] away. We've also lost a huge number of
[5:07] farmers from that era.
[5:09] How many farmers can we potentially or are
[5:12] we potentially going to lose now?
[5:15] I just read a USDA report that stated
[5:19] just last year, we lost over 200000 farms
[5:22] in the United States.
[5:24] So we're in this, we're in a dire
[5:28] moment. Like you said earlier, a plain
[5:31] that has lost its landing gear, and how
[5:34] is it going to? And the engines are
[5:38] on fire. Very well said.
[5:40] So that's what I, my intention was when I
[5:44] came back to farm.
[5:45] I wasn't going to go into debt.
[5:48] I mean, a small amount of debt is somewhat
[5:52] necessary to build a business, but I was
[5:55] going to take things differently every was
[5:58] going to be a low cost producer.
[6:01] I was not going to go try to expand
[6:04] and buy my first 200 acres right out of
[6:08] the gate because I would be stuck in a
[6:11] corn and soybean rotation or even a corn
[6:14] on corn on corn, which I've seen where
[6:18] that goes, right? And I'm seeing where it
[6:21] goes. So I also wanted to be a low
[6:25] cost producer and I want to be a price
[6:28] maker and not a price taker.
[6:31] Well, how do you do that in corn sorting
[6:35] and the corn belt soybean, in the corn
[6:38] belt? Everyone around me is corn soybean
[6:41] growers. Well, it is starting a direct
[6:44] market farm. And so that's what I set out
[6:48] to do. I've started with some chickens,
[6:50] started with some pigs.
[6:52] And just like my parents, whose hog
[6:55] operation really kept them out of the
[6:58] 1980s, and they got out of hogs at the
[7:02] Time in the 90s when prices just plummeted
[7:05] and dropped.
[7:06] So, you know, there's a little bit of
[7:10] luck, I think, involved in agrarianism,
[7:12] having an agricultural business.
[7:14] But they were able, that was a way that
[7:17] they were able to survive.
[7:19] And somehow hogs was the key.
[7:22] Hogs was something that I started out
[7:25] with. I knew them very well, but I wanted
[7:29] to focus on animal welfare focus on an
[7:32] omnivore eating as an omnivore, not
[7:34] necessarily just eating soybean meal and
[7:37] corn its entire life.
[7:38] I wanted it to have, they're very smart
[7:42] animals, right? Having its intrinsic
[7:44] abilities so that they don't have stress,
[7:47] you know, being able to express themselves
[7:50] in the way that they want to.
[7:53] And it turns out that the meat is really
[7:56] delicious and people have felt more of a
[8:00] connection to that.
[8:01] And so, bringing that element of like, and
[8:04] I invited lots of people to the farm to
[8:08] witness, you know, about how a pig makes a
[8:12] nest, you know, to have its babies, how a
[8:15] pig loves to wallow.
[8:17] And that brought a lot of joy to a
[8:21] lot of people. It still brings joy to a
[8:24] lot of people, and there's this kind of
[8:28] connection. And then we were with
[8:30] chickens. We started with chickens, and we
[8:33] had this kind of sad flock of sheep
[8:37] that my father had used as kind of
[8:40] like grain cleaner uppers.
[8:42] And I've really improved those genetics
[8:44] quite a bit. I was taught early on
[8:48] feedlot the sheep, wean them early, wean
[8:51] the lambs early, put them in a feedlot,
[8:54] stuff them with grain, and get them fat
[8:58] as fast as you can.
[9:00] Sell them to the auction.
[9:02] Well, that comes at a price.
[9:05] And what I was witnessing was this we
[9:08] had to, they were getting coccidiosis,
[9:11] they were getting scours, they were just
[9:14] stressed out, and their immune system was
[9:17] not functioning properly.
[9:18] And so we had to give them more
[9:22] medicine. So I guess I was like, well,
[9:25] I was starting to transition to organic at
[9:28] the time. I rented some acres for my
[9:32] family. About 25 acres, I started to
[9:35] transition to organic thinking that I
[9:38] wanted to go the corn soybean route, you
[9:41] know, because that's what you do corn,
[9:44] soybean, oats, two years of alfalfa in a
[9:48] typical Iowa organic rotation.
[9:49] Sometimes it's just corn, soybean, oats,
[9:52] but I wanted that perennial time.
[9:54] And during that time, we had some
[9:57] torrential downpours, like in 2016 was a
[10:00] big flooding time.
[10:02] And I, you know, with organic agriculture
[10:05] You have to use some tillage.
[10:08] And I was basically with my cultivating, I
[10:11] was creating some channels, water
[10:13] channels. And this particular field is at
[10:17] the bottom of a small watershed.
[10:19] And I was really, I learned a lot
[10:23] about the hydrology of our farm just from
[10:27] witnessing how water is moving and also
[10:30] taking soil with it.
[10:32] So I'm like, I have this Hmm, I
[10:35] have this flock of sheep and I have
[10:39] this 25 acres. I'm putting, you know, I'm
[10:42] just planting alfalfa and I'm taking that
[10:46] alfalfa off. There's no dairy near me.
[10:49] So all those nutrients I'm exporting.
[10:51] Why don't I rethink this, you know?
[10:55] And so I planted a more robust variety
[10:58] of grass species in my next organic
[11:01] rotation for grazing.
[11:03] And we started rotational grazing our
[11:05] sheep. I also discovered wow, this feedlot
[11:09] type of sheep is not really the greatest
[11:12] and most efficient on grass.
[11:14] So then we started experimenting with
[11:17] genetics. And now we have just this
[11:20] ultimate sheep variety, I guess.
[11:23] That sheep variety, I guess.
[11:25] It's kind of a hodgepodge of different
[11:28] things. You know, with sheep, you can have
[11:32] fun because you can cross things really
[11:35] quickly and you have multiple births.
[11:37] And it's just more fun, I think, than
[11:41] cattle. But you can create what you want
[11:45] and develop what you want out of a
[11:48] sheep more easily.
[11:50] And so right now we have this short,
[11:53] stocky, white faced beast of these hyper
[11:56] efficient on forage and forage alone
[11:59] sheep. And they're crossed mostly with
[12:02] like Ile de France.
[12:04] They have some Sams, they have a little
[12:07] bit of old Dorset, not American type
[12:10] Dorset. And they are really robust, very
[12:14] efficient, very productive, good mothers.
[12:16] You know, they have all the elements that
[12:19] we want to see in a sheep and
[12:23] they have some good wool quality.
[12:26] So we're trying to get the loin eye
[12:29] size increased a little more.
[12:32] So, we're putting in some Coopworth
[12:34] genetics now, playing with that.
[12:37] And then I recently got some Canadian Ile
[12:40] de France genetics to see.
[12:43] So, that's TBD. It's kind of fun.
[12:46] But anyway, back to the forages.
[12:49] What we've done is just what we saw, I
[12:52] guess, what we observed once we put the
[12:55] livestock back on the land was we didn't
[12:59] have coccidiosis, we didn't have, and we
[13:01] were rotational grazing.
[13:03] We didn't have worm issues because we
[13:05] weren't overgrazing a creek riparian area.
[13:08] You know where most livestock around here
[13:11] is put is in these creek zones or riparian
[13:14] zones that really trees should be instead
[13:17] of just you know pasture.
[13:19] And we didn't have to give; they weren't
[13:22] getting scours. And so we didn't have to
[13:25] treat them, and it was just this kind of
[13:29] like aha moment of, oh, if we work with
[13:33] nature, we don't really have to.
[13:35] We're just the facilitators.
[13:36] We're not hyper managing.
[13:38] We're not using a lot of fossil fuels to
[13:42] farm. We're exercising.
[13:43] We're out there walking, making our
[13:45] paddocks, observing.
[13:47] And then, in addition, with them
[13:49] fertilizing in a more spread out manner
[13:52] versus what a manure spreader would mimic,
[13:55] is they were creating their own
[13:57] fertilization for the future food that
[13:59] they're going to eat.
[14:01] And our goal is always 60 days that they
[14:04] come back to the paddock.
[14:06] We have an average rainfall here of over
[14:09] 35 inches. So, and we've had more than
[14:13] that this year. But just the power and
[14:16] resiliency of that forage.
[14:17] And then I think also, and I'm getting
[14:20] scattered here. So if I need to refocus,
[14:23] you know, please tell me.
[14:25] But what we're seeing is, you We want to
[14:29] treat our forages just like you would a
[14:32] crop, just like a corn crop or a soybean
[14:35] crop.
[14:37] We're analyzing our forages and getting
[14:39] analysis on that nutritional power of that
[14:42] forage in a time of year, in a
[14:46] time of the year. So it could be
[14:49] the month of June, the month of May,
[14:53] June, July. We are constantly trying to
[14:56] understand what the plants are doing.
[14:58] When they're doing it.
[15:00] And so we have some really great analysis
[15:04] over the last four years that we have
[15:07] really been kind of looking at our forages
[15:11] under a microscope and ensuring that our
[15:14] animals are getting the best nutrition
[15:16] that they are. So then we've added some
[15:20] cattle recently because our customers are
[15:23] like, well, we don't really like lamb as
[15:26] much, you know, we'd really like.
[15:29] Like beef. You know, lamb is this amazing
[15:32] protein. But it's not commonly eaten in
[15:35] the United States, but it is across the
[15:39] world. It is. And it is really the
[15:42] most, I think, one of the most protein
[15:46] rich, vitamin rich proteins there is.
[15:48] But I've been trying to convince people to
[15:52] eat lamb for the last 15 years and
[15:56] haven't succeeded quite yet.
[15:57] There's a strong cultural history there.
[16:00] Yes, yeah, yeah. So we are our direct
[16:03] market farm is now in its almost 12th
[16:07] year of business and we also sell
[16:10] wholesale too as well as breeding stock.
[16:14] And we've added agroforestry, lots of
[16:16] different hardwood trees.
[16:18] We've redone our riparian buffers.
[16:20] We've added silvopasture, so silvopasture
[16:22] by addition. We're really curious about
[16:24] how we can integrate agroforestry systems
[16:27] into row cropping systems.
[16:29] And I'm not just talking field windbreaks,
[16:32] I'm talking more like alley cropping.
[16:34] But as you know, across the Corn Belt,
[16:38] there's a lot of field tile.
[16:40] And that's a big question mark whether
[16:43] that can occur or not.
[16:45] But our goal is really how can we
[16:49] get our crop acres to be more fungal
[16:52] dominated instead of bacterial?
[16:54] And I should say, as a side I
[16:57] also am a commodity farmer.
[16:59] So my parents own our family, I'm sorry,
[17:03] our family owns about a thousand acres of
[17:06] corn and soybeans.
[17:07] And I manage, I co manage that farm,
[17:11] Center View Farms, with my father, who's
[17:14] about 85. He still loves to do all
[17:17] the bookkeeping and help with the decision
[17:20] making, but I'm slowly trying to integrate
[17:23] some of the incubation that I've created
[17:26] here at Joy Food and Fiber Farm slowly
[17:30] into Center View Farms.
[17:31] But I have to do it, you know,
[17:35] a little more wisely, you know, because
[17:38] again, we want to survive.
[17:40] We want to be a low cost producer.
[17:43] We want to be a viable business tomorrow.
[17:46] And so we have to be pretty smart and
[17:49] strategic about that.
[17:51] Luckily, both my dad and I think.
[17:53] Very similarly, and our philosophies might
[17:56] be different, but we'll get to the same
[17:59] place of success, I think, in the end.
[18:02] This is perfect, Wendy.
[18:03] I really want to get into that
[18:06] conversation of what does a wise
[18:08] transition on scale look like?
[18:10] This is going to be a fun conversation.
[18:13] But before we dig into that, you've
[18:16] described some of the history and the
[18:18] journey that you've been on.
[18:21] Can you give us, a an overview or a
[18:25] snapshot of does joia look like today?
[18:28] The 120 acres that you mentioned the
[18:31] various enterprises, things you're doing,
[18:33] but what is what's the overall scope look
[18:36] like? So today it is I've got 15 acres
[18:40] of a grain called Kernza.
[18:42] I don't know if you've heard of Kernza
[18:45] before, but... A time or two or 50.
[18:48] Okay. It's a perennial grain and We can
[18:52] talk about that in a little bit because I
[18:56] really am excited about perennial grain
[18:58] agriculture. But, Corenza is one of the
[19:01] first perennial grains out there that was
[19:04] released as a commercial grain.
[19:06] So we have a little bit of that on
[19:10] our farm. The reason we grow that, one is
[19:13] it's great for grazing, and it also you
[19:16] can take it for grain in the same year.
[19:20] Its straw value also has pretty good hay
[19:23] value for winter feed.
[19:24] And it's very resilient to drought and
[19:27] flooding. So we find that as a key, a
[19:31] key species on our farm to make us, help
[19:34] us make us more resilient and low cost.
[19:37] We also Have predominantly forages, so
[19:39] cool season forages.
[19:41] We also have some pastures that are warm
[19:44] season forages for when the cool seasons
[19:46] kind of go dormant.
[19:48] We have some places to bring the animals
[19:51] where it's really filling out and is more
[19:54] robust. So giving the ruminants quite a
[19:57] diversity of forages to choose from.
[19:59] And then we have some wetlands, we have a
[20:02] silver pasture, we have 15 acres of a
[20:05] riparian area, and we have a micro
[20:08] orchard. And then our little farmstead
[20:10] where most of our chickens and our pigs
[20:13] are. We'd really like, if we have more
[20:17] labor, and labor is a topic I'd like to
[20:20] talk about also in this today, but if we
[20:23] had more labor, you know, we're looking at
[20:27] kind of how can we bring in other, you
[20:30] know, here's a way for a young and
[20:33] beginning farmer to build equity that
[20:35] doesn't have land access, for example.
[20:38] Could they have a thousand chicken
[20:40] holding, you know, chicken tractors and
[20:43] they follow the sheep?
[20:44] I'm sorry, they follow the cattle.
[20:47] So we graze where we have the sheep go
[20:50] first, then the cattle, then the chickens.
[20:53] What we're finding is just Than the
[20:56] cattle, than the chickens.
[20:57] But we're finding, it's just my husband
[21:00] and I, John, that we aren't able to do
[21:04] all of that plus everything else.
[21:06] So we really want to, and we have interns
[21:09] every year, we have apprenticeship
[21:11] programs. We are trying to actively teach
[21:14] the next generation of agrarians.
[21:16] And we invite, you know, if it's a good
[21:20] fit, we really want to invite them to how
[21:23] can you integrate an idea that you have
[21:26] into our farm? How can we be an incubator?
[21:30] For you and help you build some equity?
[21:33] Exactly. I love it.
[21:34] Yeah, that's exactly the model that we
[21:37] need to see a lot more of.
[21:40] So I'm not going to lose sight of the
[21:43] labor and the labor economics piece, I
[21:46] think, is building equity is an important
[21:49] part of that conversation.
[21:50] But just staying with the topic for a
[21:54] moment of what your operation looks like,
[21:56] what do your revenue streams look like?
[21:59] You mentioned beef production, sheep,
[22:01] hogs, chickens, and so forth, and the farm
[22:05] store. What drives the farm's financial
[22:08] viability? So we have, I didn't talk about
[22:11] the numbers, so we have 160 ewes.
[22:15] The carrying capacity of this farm, we're
[22:18] still trying to develop within a number of
[22:22] ruminants because they're drought years
[22:24] and wet years, and trying to create a
[22:28] balance. So that we aren't ever stuck in
[22:31] a position where we have to buy a
[22:35] bunch of hay. So, 160 ewes and their
[22:39] lambs are grazing here, 25 cows and their
[22:42] calves. We're also supporting their
[22:45] steers. So, we are certified grass fed,
[22:48] grass finished. So, we are kind of really
[22:52] creating a story and selling that story to
[22:55] our customers. It's not a story because
[22:58] people come to us when they have health
[23:02] issues or they have digestive issues or
[23:05] and they want pure food, you know, food
[23:09] that, you know, we don't, we don't,
[23:12] because we're animal welfare approved, the
[23:15] animals that are sold to our customers
[23:18] cannot have any residuals of antibiotics,
[23:21] they can't have any hormones, they have to
[23:25] be grass fed. Grass finished grassfed
[23:27] grassfinished and so with that, with those
[23:31] certifications, that really helps and
[23:33] helps us stand out quite a bit.
[23:37] The other thing is, we provide a very
[23:41] stableI guess for not necessarily, but for
[23:44] our direct marketing, I should say, for
[23:47] our hogs, our chickens, our ducks, eggs,
[23:50] lamb, and beefwe have a we're pretty
[23:53] stable in terms of price.
[23:55] Because again, we're the price maker, not
[23:58] the price taker. So when commodity prices
[24:02] go up and down and sideways, people know
[24:05] that our prices are pretty much going to
[24:09] stay stable. Now, are we the, are we,
[24:12] are we, we're probably too low when beef
[24:16] or cattle or hog commodity prices go up.
[24:19] But that brings people to us, people that
[24:23] might not necessarily come to us.
[24:25] You know, we're a lower price at that
[24:29] time. But when those commodity prices are
[24:32] low, our prices seem high.
[24:34] So we're just more stable.
[24:37] Our prices don't fluctuate so much.
[24:39] So the majority of our income comes from
[24:43] our direct market sales, also our
[24:45] wholesale for lamb and our breeding stock
[24:48] for sheep and lamb.
[24:50] So that's the majority.
[24:52] And I should say, Kernza.
[24:54] So you might have heard that Kernza's
[24:57] market maybe is not, at least for
[25:00] transitional and conventional Kernza, is
[25:02] not as robust. But there is a strong
[25:05] market for organic Kernza and regenerative
[25:08] organic certified Kernza.
[25:09] So we can talk about that later, but
[25:12] that's also a grain that we grow.
[25:15] We also grow oats when we transition.
[25:18] So this would be organic oats.
[25:20] So we have an organic grain crop about
[25:24] once every three years.
[25:25] And that price is pretty is very good.
[25:29] We have a nearby processor that takes food
[25:32] grade oats. So that's kind of our goals is
[25:36] keeping everything pretty much food grade,
[25:38] which offers premiums.
[25:39] And we're low cost.
[25:41] We don't purchase a lot of inputs.
[25:44] Let's talk about the low cost component.
[25:47] Earlier in your introduction, you
[25:49] described how you're primarily a perennial
[25:51] operation. What does your equipment
[25:54] infrastructure look like?
[25:55] What do you have that rusts, rots, and
[25:58] depreciates? Well, what's rotting and
[26:00] depreciating right now is some of my
[26:03] organic row crop implements.
[26:05] Luckily, I didn't spend a lot on those and
[26:08] I got some grants to help me pay for
[26:12] those a long time ago.
[26:14] But like I said, I like to be thrifty,
[26:18] right? And I'm not cheap, so I do hire
[26:21] like custom operators so that I don't have
[26:24] to carry that machinery, especially for
[26:27] how small I am. So luckily, there are
[26:30] still custom operators around that have
[26:32] smaller machinery that can harvest oats,
[26:34] for example, or can harvest Kernza, which
[26:37] I like to use wind growers versus taking
[26:40] it direct so I don't have to put it
[26:44] in a bin, put a bunch of air on
[26:47] it and all, you know, for a long period
[26:51] of time or put it through dryers.
[26:55] So I also have, I manage a
[26:58] conventional farm.
[26:59] So, you know, we have wagons, we
[27:03] have tractors, we have combines, you know,
[27:06] we have machines. But actually most of
[27:10] my costs for taking out crops or
[27:13] or I have a drill too so
[27:17] that I can drill my own seeding
[27:20] but I'm sorry seed drill my Own
[27:24] seeds, yeah. That the custom operators are
[27:27] really important. And I guess that's part
[27:31] of this, you know, helping build rural
[27:34] communities, helping build, we need more
[27:37] farmers to then hire custom operators.
[27:40] Custom operation is a way for a
[27:44] young and beginning farmer to start
[27:47] building equity without land access.
[27:50] So I really want to promote that and
[27:53] to Hire these custom operators because
[27:56] they are part of my rural community.
[27:59] I want them to be successful.
[28:01] Hopefully they want me to be successful so
[28:05] that they can keep being hired and the
[28:08] cycle goes on. Let's talk a little bit
[28:11] in the context of since you brought up
[28:15] the custom operators earlier, we mentioned
[28:17] labor, labor economics and building
[28:19] equity. What does that look like?
[28:22] For your operation currently, and how do
[28:25] you hope to see that evolve?
[28:28] This is a question that has a very
[28:31] long answer. I mean, it's very complex,
[28:34] right? There are all these levers that
[28:37] are really not allowing agrarian labor to
[28:41] fulfill its prophecy, I guess I want
[28:44] to say. So, our schools, so one
[28:48] thing I Wish is that agriculture, and
[28:51] I like the word agrarian, so I'm
[28:55] going to use it because I think
[28:58] agrarian is the future.
[29:00] Being agrarian is the future, but the
[29:03] agrarian labor pool should be somewhat
[29:06] treated like our trades, right?
[29:09] Our trades like plumbing and electric work
[29:12] and welding, and maybe potentially
[29:15] unionized. And, you know, maybe
[29:17] potentially unionize at some point.
[29:20] But the fact that we don't have
[29:23] enough labor pools when it comes to
[29:27] agriculture, and I'm not talking like
[29:30] immigration reform or immigration, I'm
[29:32] leaving that part kind of as its
[29:36] own political topic that I'm not going
[29:39] to touch on, but I'm talking about
[29:42] building from within, you know, powering
[29:45] rural America with labor.
[29:47] And, you know, we were an agrarian
[29:51] society when this country was first, you
[29:54] know, created and settled.
[29:56] And so I'd really, how can you
[30:00] get back to that? So I know
[30:03] that's the bigger, broader question.
[30:06] But some solutions that I have is,
[30:09] you know, our community colleges, our high
[30:13] schools, even our elementary schools and
[30:16] our middle schools, our curriculum and
[30:18] education can include some of these
[30:21] elements of agrarianism.
[30:23] And that's just not corn and soybeans.
[30:26] You know, right now I may walk into,
[30:30] I've been trying to crack, I had been
[30:33] trying to crack the nut of future farmers
[30:37] of America for over a decade, trying to
[30:40] invite myself into their classrooms to
[30:43] talk about diversified agriculture and how
[30:46] one of the. Tougher than a hickory nut
[30:49] if it took you a decade.
[30:52] But I finally got invited a few years
[30:56] ago. To speak to my local FFA class.
[30:59] And it was I don't know, there were
[31:03] kids that were interested, but I don't
[31:06] know if they're spending a lot of time
[31:10] on the different types of potential
[31:12] agricultural careers that are possible.
[31:15] And so I think that's a huge starting
[31:19] point how can we get our youth to
[31:23] consider that agriculture doesn't have to
[31:25] just be buying a five hundred thousand
[31:29] dollar. 500000 combine and purchasing
[31:31] inputs like their parents have, and owning
[31:34] 500 to 1000 to actually by the time
[31:38] their generation has to farm, it's going
[31:41] to be 5000 acres. So having that
[31:44] realization that they probably will not be
[31:48] able to, if they came from a farm
[31:51] and those farm families are becoming less
[31:55] and less, right? And when I spoke at
[31:58] FFA class, and I actually got the FFA
[32:02] class to come, they're going to come here
[32:06] on Friday to the farm.
[32:08] This will be the first time I've actually
[32:11] gotten them to our farm for a farm tour.
[32:15] But I always ask, you know, how many
[32:18] people came from farms?
[32:20] How many people grew up on farms?
[32:23] And there's very few hands.
[32:25] How many people have a grandparent that
[32:28] had a farm? A little bit more.
[32:31] So it is, but the grandparents don't farm
[32:34] anymore. There's not the next generation.
[32:37] So, I, you know, where do those people
[32:40] start and where, what kind of
[32:42] opportunities and solutions can we provide
[32:45] to them that are, that sit outside of this
[32:49] very traditional, well, it's what my
[32:51] parents did and it's what my grandparents
[32:54] did. And that system is not working.
[32:57] And so, what we try to do for, you
[33:01] know, we need labor April through June.
[33:04] And if we provide a pretty intensive
[33:07] apprenticeship program in that few months'
[33:09] timeframe, we also give people
[33:11] opportunities if they wanted to work
[33:14] throughout the summer.
[33:15] You know, our growing season requires
[33:17] quite a bit of labor up until about early
[33:21] September around Labor Day.
[33:23] So we really invite someone who wants to.
[33:26] Intern with us throughout the summer
[33:28] months. We offer that opportunity as well.
[33:31] And these are paid, these are not like
[33:34] labor situations for learning.
[33:36] Hopefully, they learn, but they're also
[33:39] getting paid. But we really want to help
[33:42] train the next generation.
[33:43] It takes more time to do that.
[33:46] We understand that.
[33:47] But I think it's part of our
[33:50] responsibility as farmers as well.
[33:52] I mean, farmers have a lot of
[33:55] responsibility on their plates, and we get
[33:58] paid very little, right?
[34:00] But that really should shift because, you
[34:02] know. How do we get the next generation to
[34:06] be interested in agriculture if they're
[34:09] not, you know, getting paid what they
[34:11] need? And there's just a lot of risk.
[34:15] So I have several ideas and solutions.
[34:17] They're more politically inspired, but in
[34:21] general, it's how do we promote this
[34:24] next generation of future agrarians and to
[34:28] repower and rebuild rural America?
[34:30] Well, Ed, it's very fun at its
[34:34] very foundation, there's the old adage
[34:37] that you achieve what you incentivize.
[34:40] And that largely means you achieve what
[34:43] you incentivize economically.
[34:45] So, providing pathways to be able to
[34:48] pay people well in equity, if not
[34:52] in cash, is foundational.
[34:54] And so, within that, I recognize we
[34:57] are having to navigate.
[34:59] A transition from what used to be
[35:03] into the future reality that we want
[35:06] to create. My question for you is
[35:10] how do you ensure that you get
[35:13] paid well? It's being that price maker
[35:17] and not the price taker.
[35:20] So it's being creative.
[35:22] I think as farmers, we are innately
[35:25] creative and we have somewhat lost that
[35:29] ability. One, because technology is moving
[35:32] so quickly and it's new shiny objects,
[35:35] you know, and they're very expensive.
[35:38] And we have kind of restrained from that
[35:42] just because we continue, we want to be
[35:46] this low cost producer.
[35:47] Not that we're, I don't know, creativity
[35:50] is fun to try to solve a problem
[35:54] with less. And so that's one way.
[35:57] Could you repeat your original question
[36:00] again just so I don't get-- My question
[36:04] was, how do you ensure that you get
[36:07] paid well? Oh, yeah.
[36:09] So, being that price maker, providing
[36:12] stability, I guess, to our customer base.
[36:15] So we're very customer focused, and we're
[36:18] basically like, we have a virtual farm
[36:21] store. So we don't have a brick and
[36:25] mortar store. We do sell to some
[36:28] stores, but having diversity of markets,
[36:32] diversity of outlets, that diversity piece
[36:35] is really important for us to
[36:38] remain viable and for us to
[36:42] get paid. Also, being creative.
[36:44] So, being creative about your funding
[36:48] sources, where again, having diversity of
[36:51] maybe it's cost share from USDA,
[36:54] maybe it's nonprofit grants offered for
[36:58] different types and styles of agriculture.
[37:01] Maybe it's infrastructure grants.
[37:03] In addition, I, as a farmer,
[37:06] if I want to see this
[37:10] kind of agriculture succeed, I feel
[37:13] like it's part of my responsibility
[37:16] to really assist and help advocate
[37:20] and promote for the infrastructure.
[37:22] The capital, the research, the markets
[37:26] for agriculture. And so I've kind
[37:29] of integrated, I kind of work
[37:32] and advocate in all of those
[37:36] kind of pillars of agriculture to
[37:39] help what we do here on
[37:42] our farm grow. And I know
[37:45] it takes a lot of work,
[37:49] It is, it takes a lot
[37:52] of work and time. It's a
[37:55] lot of zoom meetings and I
[37:59] should also add policy onto that
[38:02] pillar. So, there are five main
[38:05] pillars, what I call them, of
[38:09] how are we going to make
[38:12] change. And I'm driven mostly by
[38:15] the landscape change that I see.
[38:18] So, we're kind of an island here of
[38:22] Joy Food and Fire Farm as a perennial
[38:26] farm. We're surrounded by corn and
[38:29] soybeans, predominantly corn.
[38:30] We have ethanol plants very close by.
[38:34] We need some really broad landscape
[38:36] change. And we need those kind of five
[38:40] pillars to really help make those changes.
[38:43] It's not just the farmer's responsibility,
[38:46] it is all of those other elements.
[38:49] But as a farmer, if I want to
[38:53] be successful and be viable, meaning
[38:56] success is viability, I need to be an
[39:00] advocate for all of those pieces as well.
[39:04] And I'm not saying that I have all
[39:07] the answers, I don't right now.
[39:10] It's a lot of work.
[39:12] And there are great organizations that are
[39:16] alongside me that are helping support this
[39:19] kind of agricultural change.
[39:21] But it's a huge systemic issue that took
[39:25] decades to create and now it's taking
[39:28] decades to, you know, for us to try
[39:32] to fix this issue.
[39:35] So I have a diverse set of income as well.
[39:39] It's not just, you know, I work on a
[39:42] conventional farm.
[39:43] I have our farm. I do some policy work.
[39:46] I do work with other landowners who are
[39:49] trying to who want to kind of transition
[39:52] their lands from corn and soybeans to
[39:55] perennial Landscapes and perennial
[39:56] agriculture. I do a lot of writing.
[39:59] I do a lot of speaking.
[40:01] So, you know, we have to be, as farmers,
[40:05] be creative in this kind of environment to
[40:08] be viable. But at the same time, it brings
[40:11] me a lot of joy to do all of those
[40:15] things because I feel like I'm being part
[40:18] of all those five elements that I talked
[40:21] about, all those five pillars as a way for
[40:24] progress, for change.
[40:27] One of the things.
[40:29] That I noticed you didn't mention
[40:31] explicitly, but I think it's implicit in
[40:34] much of what you're doing is adding value.
[40:38] You're not really just producing raw
[40:40] commodities, even if you were to define
[40:43] Kerns, organic Kerns of grain as a
[40:46] commodity. What are the various ways that
[40:49] you are adding value to the various things
[40:52] you're doing aside from the foundational
[40:55] processing component.
[40:56] So outside of like a packaged good, like
[40:59] turning, yeah, turning, turning beef,
[41:01] selling beef and as meat instead of on the
[41:05] hoof, for example, those are some
[41:08] foundational pieces.
[41:09] But what other ways, what other things are
[41:12] you doing to add value?
[41:17] So we're not just selling our grain
[41:21] as a commodity, but we're also custom
[41:24] hiring mills to mill our grain, and
[41:28] then we're bagging it, selling it as
[41:32] bagged flour, for example.
[41:34] We'd like to do this with oats,
[41:38] hire the steam process, you know, that
[41:42] flake grain, so that we can have
[41:45] flaked kernza, flaked oats as a value
[41:49] added process that we can sell bagged.
[41:53] We also sell our wool, so we
[41:56] have a company called Joy Asleep.
[42:00] It is wool filled bedding products
[42:03] comforters, mattress toppers, pillows,
[42:05] travel pillows. And that is a value
[42:09] added process that we discovered during
[42:12] COVID actually because we were sleeping
[42:15] more.
[42:17] And, you know, we're not sleeping more,
[42:20] but we're in our houses more.
[42:23] And it seemed like a great time to
[42:26] try to promote wool filled bedding.
[42:29] Now, what I've discovered is where are all
[42:33] of our flour mills?
[42:34] Where are all of our woolen mills?
[42:37] Where are our cleaners and dehullers for
[42:41] small grains? And so, in this kind of
[42:44] value added process, I've discovered there
[42:47] are very few. And I think a lot
[42:50] of rural communities used to have these
[42:53] elements, and those have long gone away.
[42:56] So, yeah. So, how can we get them
[43:00] back? Well, there need to be more people
[43:04] that are doing these things, right?
[43:06] And needing those services, another piece
[43:09] of that agrarian life that can help build
[43:12] rural America again and make our rural
[43:15] communities more robust and resilient.
[43:18] So I'm trying to think of other valueadded
[43:21] pieces value processing.
[43:23] That we've done. Oh, we are starting with
[43:26] biochar production.
[43:27] So we purchased a kiln.
[43:29] It's called the Ring of Fire.
[43:32] It's not very expensive, but it is a
[43:35] tried and true biochar making kiln.
[43:38] We happen to have a lot of dead
[43:42] ash that is in our area due to
[43:45] the emerald ash borer taking out a lot
[43:49] of that ash. And so we have a
[43:52] lot of branches that we're using.
[43:55] But finding the time to do burns because
[43:59] it's a little bit of a longer process.
[44:02] But the potential income for small bags of
[44:06] biochar is really great.
[44:08] I mean, we could be, it's something that
[44:11] we're working on right now, but it is
[44:15] like for gardeners.
[44:16] For purposefully for gardeners, and it can
[44:19] be, you know it's not incubated, but
[44:22] inoculated. Inoculated with our compost is
[44:25] a potential, too. But it's kind of
[44:28] exciting, Urbina. So let's, there's a
[44:31] question mark in my mind about whether I
[44:34] should even open this can of worms, but
[44:38] I'm going to go ahead and open it
[44:42] and see what crawls out.
[44:44] I like that. Given that you are doing
[44:47] some policy work and that you are in
[44:51] Iowa and you understand the landscape that
[44:54] exists that kind of maintains and
[44:57] preserves the status quo, what are some of
[45:00] the pathways that you're observing and
[45:03] thinking about for transitioning into a
[45:06] system that is more ecologically and also
[45:09] I would say, I'm starting to find the
[45:13] right phrase, but one that is more
[45:16] ecologically resilient.
[45:17] And one that is actually more conducive,
[45:20] and more useful, not just from an
[45:23] agriculture perspective, but for in the
[45:25] service of people, because that is, after
[45:29] all, the purpose of agriculture.
[45:31] And it seems we've forgotten much of that.
[45:34] That is a big can of worms, I
[45:38] guess. Yeah, let's see what draws out
[45:41] here. So, there's different
[45:43] administrations. So there, you know,
[45:45] there's different administrations believe
[45:47] in different things, right?
[45:49] The status quo, how we can create change.
[45:52] And I don't want to talk about one
[45:56] administration to the next, you know,
[45:58] since I've been a farmer, but one of
[46:02] the key pieces of legislation that is a
[46:05] gigantic one that helps farmers understand
[46:08] and know their pathway is the Farm Bill.
[46:12] That we are on right now that we've
[46:15] been working with is from 2018.
[46:18] So the farm bill. For those who don't
[46:21] know what it is, is a four year
[46:25] piece of giant legislation that includes a
[46:28] lot of different parts of agriculture, but
[46:31] three quarters of it is food assistance.
[46:34] And then the other parts are conservation,
[46:37] rural development, farm programs, crop
[46:39] insurance, and I'm missing a few others.
[46:43] So we are right now We have
[46:47] been. We as in, I guess, Congress,
[46:50] because they are our representatives, are
[46:53] kind of battling against well, what is
[46:57] the House has a draft, the Senate
[47:00] has a draft, and they kind of
[47:04] have to then agree on a draft
[47:07] for a farm bill to be passed.
[47:11] But we are getting close to a
[47:14] new legislative or a new, well, to
[47:18] voting in November, and Congress might
[47:21] shift and change. So there are potentials
[47:25] for change because right now this one
[47:28] party that dominates both.
[47:30] So not saying that one party or
[47:34] another is for or against regenerative
[47:37] agriculture. I'll just use that term
[47:40] because a lot of it, people know
[47:44] what that means. But there's A lot
[47:47] more work. I think, that needs to
[47:51] happen in terms of advocacy for more
[47:55] ecological or agroecological practices.
[47:57] And I work with, there's a lobbying
[48:01] group called National Sustainable Ag
[48:03] Coalition. There's many others, such as
[48:07] the National Young Farmers Coalition, the
[48:10] Agree Coalition, the Agroforestry
[48:12] Coalition. So there are a lot of
[48:16] opportunities for the people to get in
[48:19] involved, the people of America to voice
[48:23] their opinions about what they want to
[48:27] our policymakers. They do listen and they
[48:31] have to checkmark each call and what
[48:34] that call was about or email.
[48:38] So we haven't lost, I think, our
[48:41] democratic rights as people.
[48:43] And I still like to promote the
[48:47] fact that Congress has to listen to
[48:51] the people. That's what they are hired
[48:55] to do. And we, the people, right?
[48:58] And I just want to remember that.
[49:02] Their actions and behaviors seem to be
[49:06] evidence to the contrary, however.
[49:09] Yes. And that is something that, you
[49:12] know, yes, indeed.
[49:14] But I think we have an opportunity
[49:18] as we the people to vote for
[49:21] those who will be put into office
[49:25] that can change.
[49:27] And I know it's a policy, it is very much
[49:31] of a kind of a lag behind kind of scenario
[49:35] here. So it's not instant.
[49:37] Yeah. And I think it's certainly accurate.
[49:39] Policy, when we look at the commodity crop
[49:42] production system that exists in the
[49:45] Midwest and the Corn Belt states, for
[49:47] example, that is a scenario that has been
[49:50] created by policy, originally with very
[49:53] good intentions, and perhaps even still to
[49:55] this day with some good intentions.
[49:57] But now we have all kinds of detrimental
[50:00] factors that are emerging from an
[50:03] ecological perspective, a human health
[50:05] perspective, and just on and on the list
[50:08] goes.
[50:09] And the incumbent system is quite
[50:12] entrenched and resistant to being easily
[50:15] disliked. And so that is part of that
[50:18] is a substantial contributing factor to my
[50:21] perspective that we're a jetliner with the
[50:24] engines on fire and without a landing
[50:28] gear, as you described it.
[50:30] That without being, if we don't exercise
[50:33] some wisdom quite rapidly and begin
[50:35] building that landing gear and managing a
[50:39] transition. We will arrive at a crash at
[50:42] some point. Will it be in a decade
[50:46] from now? Will it be in two decades?
[50:49] Will it be in five years?
[50:52] I don't know exactly, but we are too
[50:55] fragile. Our system is too fragile to
[50:59] survive in the long term without some
[51:02] significant adjustments, from my
[51:04] perspective. I'm in full agreement.
[51:06] But if we don't, as we the people,
[51:10] we don't do anything, help do anything
[51:13] about it, if we don't advocate for the
[51:17] policies we want, if we don't raise our
[51:20] voices, if we don't go down to Washington
[51:24] with pitchforks or tractors, then we will
[51:27] be in that plane crash.
[51:29] And this is a, I guess I'm going
[51:33] to try everything that I can to try
[51:36] to make change. Yeah.
[51:38] Well, I'm just recognizing that I took a
[51:42] Bit of a contrarian perspective there and
[51:45] it could easily be misperceived or
[51:48] misconstrued. I do agree with you that one
[51:51] of the things that I've been intrigued by
[51:55] is the relatively small number of people
[51:58] that it actually takes to change a
[52:01] decision, to shift directions.
[52:03] Now, some directions are much more
[52:06] entrenched than others, but there have
[52:08] been, there have, it's Been intriguing to
[52:12] me how there can be conversations with a
[52:15] relatively small number of people, a dozen
[52:18] or a few dozen farms over a period
[52:22] of six months, a year, 18 months, can
[52:26] have substantial policy impacts.
[52:27] I've observed that on a number of
[52:30] occasions. So I'm in complete agreement
[52:33] with you on our need to be engaged.
[52:36] And I believe if more people were engaged,
[52:39] we would be in a very different place.
[52:42] So there's this level of
[52:45] disenfranchisement or this perspective
[52:46] that engagement doesn't really make a
[52:49] difference. And perhaps that's in some
[52:51] part because we're not being strategic
[52:53] about where we can make a difference,
[52:56] because there are some windmills that it
[52:59] may not make sense to tilt at from the
[53:03] beginning. Let's pick some smaller
[53:05] windmills and start there.
[53:06] Yeah. Again, diversity always wins the
[53:09] race. I mean, not the race.
[53:11] We're slow. Diversity is slow, but if you
[53:15] have diversity of policies and you're, you
[53:17] know, your people are advocating for this
[53:20] diversity of policies, the more that is
[53:23] kind of this more robust end result will
[53:26] be, if that makes any sense, in terms of
[53:30] like a farm bill or other pieces of
[53:33] legislation.
[53:35] I think during the Biden administration It
[53:37] was the Inflation Reduction Act.
[53:39] And in this Trump administration, it's the
[53:42] one big beautiful bill.
[53:43] So there are ways to build different
[53:46] pathways in our agricultural system
[53:48] outside of a farm bill.
[53:50] And those things can be done quite
[53:52] quickly. Yeah. One of the conversations I
[53:55] wanted to get is as you've been developing
[53:58] this perennial agriculture on your smaller
[54:00] scale operation, how are you thinking,
[54:03] what are you thinking about transitioning
[54:05] and bringing some of these ideas to the
[54:08] larger scale as you increasingly take on
[54:11] the management of the thousand plus acre
[54:13] operation?
[54:14] Yeah, great question.
[54:16] So, and it's one that has been
[54:20] on my mind constantly because, you know,
[54:23] I think we, We live in a
[54:27] capitalist society scale is something that
[54:30] we need as part of it.
[54:33] How can we scale? How can we
[54:36] grow and continue to add value to
[54:40] every acre by starting out small on
[54:44] this 130 acres? What are the things
[54:47] that we're learning here on a smaller
[54:51] scale? And then being able to kind
[54:54] of extrapolate those practices.
[54:56] Or amortize them into a larger scale
[55:00] operation. And I think it's one that
[55:04] needs a lot of economic research, maybe
[55:07] not the word, but analyzing.
[55:10] So analysis, and it's something that I'm
[55:13] working on currently.
[55:14] So let's say and I'm picking different
[55:17] scenarios, right? And I wish there was a
[55:21] program where I could just like plug in
[55:24] different scenarios.
[55:25] Maybe it exists and I don't know what
[55:29] these programs are, or maybe it's an AI
[55:32] thing. But what's the potential for
[55:35] scenario one, kind of mimicking what we've
[55:38] done here at Joy of Food and Fiber
[55:42] Farm and amortizing it across 1000 acres?
[55:45] What does that look like financially?
[55:47] How much time would it take?
[55:50] How much labor would it take?
[55:53] And then. You know, what's next after
[55:56] that? Is it growth or is it adding
[55:59] value more vertically?
[56:01] What we've noticed on our farm is at
[56:04] Joy Food and Fiber Farm that we do
[56:08] have to scale. If we want to just,
[56:11] you know, how can a farmer or farm
[56:15] family on 130 acres make a living on
[56:18] 130 acres? You know, I think there's a
[56:22] lot of potential value that can be added,
[56:25] but it requires a lot more labor, such
[56:29] as potential of larger chicken production.
[56:32] It could be vegetable production.
[56:34] It could be in this very food theme
[56:37] of bringing food to people in a 45,
[56:41] 50 mile radius of our farm.
[56:44] There's a lot of potential on 130 acres.
[56:47] You could do orcharding mushroom
[56:49] production, vegetables, chickens.
[56:50] We've kind of mapped Out though on our
[56:53] ruminant availability of land.
[56:55] But there's other, I think there's some
[56:57] other potentials that don't take up as
[57:00] much land to make it fulltime But I think
[57:04] we would really be burnt out if it was
[57:07] just my husband and I doing all of those
[57:11] enterprises. So, what we are seeing is
[57:13] that we have, we are healing the land.
[57:16] I mean, the amount of wildlife that has
[57:20] just come back just from our practices is
[57:23] amazing. We talked about ecosystems
[57:25] earlier and the kinds of migrating birds,
[57:28] grassland birds that we have witnessed
[57:30] coming back to our farm.
[57:32] I mean, I never knew bobolinks existed.
[57:35] I never knew dick sills or meadow larks
[57:39] or some of these grassland bird species
[57:42] that fly thousands of miles to here.
[57:45] I never knew they existed.
[57:47] So it's this kind of like eye opening,
[57:50] and we're all in partnership, right?
[57:53] It's all we're trying to be reciprocal in
[57:56] nature while with all of our different
[57:59] species that are here.
[58:01] How can we mimic that at scale and
[58:04] also be and you know be productive?
[58:07] And uh, if we're focused solely on yield
[58:11] and not necessarily on practice, and I'd
[58:14] like to see that shift eventually one day
[58:17] of you know, we're paid on practice uh,
[58:21] not on yield, and uh, we're de risked
[58:24] because of practice and not necessarily on
[58:27] yield. I think yield has become this kind
[58:31] of a detriment to um, ecosystem
[58:34] revitalization. Um, it doesn't, it kind of
[58:37] erases it actually with a yield focus
[58:40] only. Well, the other aspect of the yield
[58:43] focus, and I'm I don't want to take
[58:47] from your point because I agree with your
[58:50] point in principle, but yield, we've also
[58:54] driven yield that have, we've given no
[58:57] consideration to quality, so we're
[58:59] increasingly developing empty calories
[59:01] that don't have associated nutritional
[59:03] value broader than just caloric value.
[59:06] Yes, yeah, we're looking at quantity over
[59:09] quality more so, yeah, than that
[59:11] nutritional value.
[59:12] You know, so we think on the smaller
[59:16] scale. This kind of what we've been
[59:19] building is highly nutrition food and deep
[59:22] nutrition food is what I like to call it.
[59:25] It packs more power.
[59:27] So, can nutrition be the future yield?
[59:30] You know, can that be a potential of, you
[59:34] know, Phil? It brings in practice and it
[59:37] brings, you know, we're paid on nutrition
[59:40] and not necessarily, you know, on yield.
[59:43] So, that quantity quality switch.
[59:45] So, with those things in mind how are we
[59:49] transitioning, or how am I thinking about
[59:52] transitioning some of what we've learned
[59:54] here onto a larger scale farm?
[59:57] And it really stems a lot from I want
[1:00:00] to go back a little bit because it stems
[1:00:04] from 1000 acre corn soybean farms are
[1:00:07] becoming obsolete.
[1:00:08] So, I'm looking at it as a what's my
[1:00:12] competitive advantage?
[1:00:13] If we're thinking about it in this
[1:00:16] capitalistic box. What can be my
[1:00:18] competitive advantage so that I stay in
[1:00:21] business tomorrow, that I'm still in
[1:00:23] business next year?
[1:00:26] And that is a, it's one, it's very
[1:00:29] sad that a thousand acres, a thousand acre
[1:00:33] corn soybean farm is going to become
[1:00:36] obsolete very shortly, just simply because
[1:00:38] we're not at the scale that's required of,
[1:00:42] as our inputs are increasing for corn
[1:00:45] soybeans. And potentially, you know,
[1:00:47] people's debt and potentially people's
[1:00:49] debt, and we talked about these things,
[1:00:52] debt and landbased debt is increasing,
[1:00:54] land values might be decreasing.
[1:00:57] So how can we, in this kind of
[1:01:00] food theme, where we've learned that we
[1:01:03] can be these price makers and not the
[1:01:06] price takers, how can we integrate these
[1:01:09] practices onto a larger scale?
[1:01:12] And so what I've been doing, and
[1:01:15] it's very slow work, I might not
[1:01:19] even achieve it in my lifetime, you
[1:01:22] know, is the integration of Diverse crops
[1:01:26] and systems. When I say systems, that
[1:01:29] can be cropping systems, it can be
[1:01:33] agroforestry systems, it can be
[1:01:35] potentially vegetable or other types of
[1:01:38] foods. But it is the food, what
[1:01:42] we've discovered here is that providing
[1:01:45] food and high density nutrition to people
[1:01:48] that the nutrition to people that it
[1:01:52] makes them feel good.
[1:01:54] It's not power packed with sugar and
[1:01:57] just empty calories, it's actual nutrition
[1:02:00] that comes from the soil.
[1:02:03] That's the pathway.
[1:02:05] We want to continue that and we don't
[1:02:08] then feel threatened with the idea or that
[1:02:12] we have to Rent and buy rent or
[1:02:16] buy a bunch of acres to stay viable
[1:02:19] that way can do this at a smaller
[1:02:23] scale, smaller being even 500 acres, with
[1:02:26] the potential of growing nutrient dense
[1:02:29] food for people. Well, one of the things
[1:02:32] that is implied, just from a philosophical
[1:02:36] perspective, given the conversation that
[1:02:38] you have already had, one of the things
[1:02:41] that's implied as you transition is that
[1:02:45] you need more people, you need more
[1:02:48] enterprises. You need more people to come
[1:02:51] in and bring their enterprises to those
[1:02:54] thousand acres and build their equity on
[1:02:57] those thousand acres and help to
[1:03:00] revitalize that and to turn those into
[1:03:03] very successful enterprises.
[1:03:04] I mean, you have an incredible incubator
[1:03:08] opportunity. Yes. And so that's what we
[1:03:11] have been kind of researching.
[1:03:13] You know, it's not just mimicking what it
[1:03:17] is we've built here on Zoy Food and
[1:03:20] Fiber Farm, but we do need this, we
[1:03:23] need other people involved.
[1:03:25] Now the big question.
[1:03:27] That I have in my mind is do
[1:03:30] people want land ownership or do they want
[1:03:34] to be able to access land and not
[1:03:37] necessarily have the ownership?
[1:03:39] You know, and so that is a big
[1:03:42] question that I have.
[1:03:44] Or is there an intermediary step where
[1:03:47] they build an enterprise on land that they
[1:03:50] don't necessarily own over a three or a
[1:03:54] five or seven year period and then
[1:03:57] transfer that equity?
[1:03:58] To land ownership, to a piece of Their
[1:04:01] own. Yes, that's a great scenario.
[1:04:04] But are they willing to stick with it?
[1:04:07] Are they willing to?
[1:04:09] And that's what we're trying to figure out
[1:04:13] and formulate with our apprenticeships and
[1:04:15] internship programs, is finding the right
[1:04:18] people that want to grow like that and
[1:04:21] are patient enough to really reflect on
[1:04:24] and they are patient enough to really
[1:04:27] refine their art, refine their
[1:04:29] enterprises, and be able to take that,
[1:04:32] build that equity, because it takes time.
[1:04:35] We have to be patient.
[1:04:37] We have to exercise restraint and we have
[1:04:41] to kind of be thrifty.
[1:04:43] And are they willing to do that and
[1:04:47] have patience that they can then, they're
[1:04:50] building equity year after year, that they
[1:04:54] can then have their own piece of property
[1:04:57] or land to do that.
[1:05:00] And we are, I have questions around the
[1:05:03] future of our farm.
[1:05:05] It has to include people, it has to.
[1:05:09] But how is a bigger question?
[1:05:12] The question that I would like to end
[1:05:16] on you have interns on your farm, you've
[1:05:19] really thought deeply about what it takes
[1:05:23] to build equity and to engage and build
[1:05:26] a A population of and a community of
[1:05:30] successful farmers.
[1:05:31] What advice do you have for people who
[1:05:35] want to enter, who want to get into
[1:05:39] farming? The biggest piece of advice I
[1:05:42] have is to know your costs, know what
[1:05:46] your income potential is.
[1:05:47] Agriculture is, you know, a big part of
[1:05:51] it is taking risks, but any kind of
[1:05:55] entrepreneurship is.
[1:05:56] And, but just being able to not over
[1:06:00] leverage yourself, meaning it's the answer
[1:06:02] is not always with debt.
[1:06:05] The bank is not your friend, and they
[1:06:09] don't have your best interests in mind.
[1:06:12] It is you really have to come up
[1:06:16] with, you know, know your numbers, know
[1:06:19] your income potential, and make
[1:06:21] relationships, have relationships, build
[1:06:23] your network, because that network is more
[1:06:26] powerful than one might think.
[1:06:29] You know, we have been kind of raised and
[1:06:33] grown to be very individualistic and
[1:06:35] really be this kind of very me focused,
[1:06:39] have a me focused life in the United
[1:06:42] States. And I think we need to think more
[1:06:45] of it as in a more of a we
[1:06:49] focus, especially as we think about
[1:06:51] networks and relationships, because those
[1:06:53] relationships are those that you can lean
[1:06:56] on for support or maybe they can provide
[1:07:00] resources or. Or resources for other
[1:07:02] resources. And that is there's an economic
[1:07:05] value to that, those resourcing and those
[1:07:08] relationships that I think a lot of people
[1:07:11] don't really quite consider sometimes.
[1:07:13] Yeah, there is economic value, which is
[1:07:16] the way we've been framing this
[1:07:18] conversation. And there's also a value
[1:07:21] that is greater than economics.
[1:07:23] And it's one of the things that I've come
[1:07:26] to really appreciate having grown up
[1:07:29] within and still being a part of an Amish
[1:07:32] community and then getting to see and
[1:07:35] Experience that culture and then to
[1:07:38] observe the culture that exists outside of
[1:07:40] that.
[1:07:42] And if there's just one, there's so much
[1:07:45] that I enjoy. Relationships are so
[1:07:48] fundamental. I really am passionate about
[1:07:50] this topic. I could speak about it for a
[1:07:53] bit, but I'll just add one thought, which
[1:07:56] is that community, a vibrant community,
[1:07:59] and participating in one and being a part
[1:08:02] of one is not about what you receive, it's
[1:08:05] about what you contribute.
[1:08:07] And when you actively shift that and you
[1:08:10] think about how can I contribute?
[1:08:12] To my neighbors to my friends, to the
[1:08:15] people that I care about, to the people in
[1:08:19] this community? In the fullness of time,
[1:08:21] it has always returned tenfold.
[1:08:23] Always, always. The indigenous peoples,
[1:08:25] they always worked on the value system of
[1:08:28] reciprocity, reciprocity with nature,
[1:08:30] reciprocity with each other.
[1:08:31] And that is something I think we need to
[1:08:35] mimic more of. I had this retreat group
[1:08:38] come to our farm and the first thing they
[1:08:41] asked me was how can we Help you?
[1:08:44] You know, here I was.
[1:08:46] I was asked to give them a tour.
[1:08:49] I was asked to, you know, share my time.
[1:08:53] But the first thing they did when they
[1:08:56] showed up was, first, how can we help you?
[1:09:00] And that just warmed my heart, you know,
[1:09:03] like just the reciprocity piece of it, of
[1:09:07] relationships is powerful and important.
[1:09:09] What important topics have we missed
[1:09:12] talking about? I don't know.
[1:09:14] We've really run the gamut here.
[1:09:16] I don't know if we, I'd love to
[1:09:20] talk more about the potential of Kernza.
[1:09:23] I'd also like to talk about perennial
[1:09:26] agriculture if we have a few more minutes.
[1:09:30] Yes, let's do that.
[1:09:31] You had the experience of watching soil
[1:09:34] erode and then you shifted it to
[1:09:37] perennials. And how has your thinking
[1:09:40] evolved since then?
[1:09:41] So, yeah, we have.
[1:09:43] For example, very basic, we have a stream
[1:09:47] that flows in between two pastures in our
[1:09:50] farms. Historically, the livestock were
[1:09:52] put out in that area, there were no
[1:09:56] trees, you know, ruminants love small
[1:09:58] trees and will eat them down.
[1:10:01] And so, really just there was an area
[1:10:04] of brome grass was basically what was
[1:10:08] growing. And one species of grass, So what
[1:10:11] we ended up doing was adding trees to
[1:10:15] that repairing area and we realized, oh,
[1:10:18] wow, we can do this grow trees here,
[1:10:21] and they actually grow pretty well and
[1:10:24] without a lot of effort.
[1:10:26] And so we started repairing that riparian
[1:10:29] zone with trees. In addition, we're very
[1:10:33] curious about how we integrate tree crops
[1:10:36] and timber or trees into pasture systems.
[1:10:39] And so we started kind of a small
[1:10:43] demonstration farm of just seven acres and
[1:10:46] we planted a silvopasture by design of
[1:10:50] hardwoods. And that's doing very well.
[1:10:52] We're in its fourth year right now.
[1:10:56] We are able to graze cattle between the
[1:10:59] alleys of the trees, not necessarily sheep
[1:11:03] yet, but soon. And those hardwoods are
[1:11:06] growing really robustly.
[1:11:07] So, and that is over field tile areas.
[1:11:11] So, these are field tile dominated land,
[1:11:14] you know, with pasture or cool season
[1:11:18] forages and trees.
[1:11:19] And so far, I mean, the trees are
[1:11:23] four years old. We have anything from
[1:11:26] sycamores to river birch to hardwoods like
[1:11:29] oaks. We have not had any issues with
[1:11:33] flooding or plugging or anything like
[1:11:36] that. But it's an experiment.
[1:11:38] It is a demonstration.
[1:11:40] We don't want to plug our neighbor's tile.
[1:11:44] We don't want to plug anything and we
[1:11:48] will fix that if we do.
[1:11:51] But we want to understand better how can
[1:11:54] we integrate trees into row crop acres and
[1:11:58] do that wisely without hurting our
[1:12:01] neighbors' situations.
[1:12:02] And then we're also dabbling, like I said,
[1:12:06] with perennial grains and perennial Grains
[1:12:08] being like Kernza is one of the first
[1:12:12] to be commercialized.
[1:12:14] And we first planted, so I tried no
[1:12:18] tilling Kernza into clover for my very
[1:12:21] first time. That was about five years ago,
[1:12:24] and that was a complete failure.
[1:12:26] The clover is very robust as a perennial.
[1:12:30] And so the following year, I took some
[1:12:33] notes from some other organic farmers who
[1:12:36] are, you know, creating more of a better
[1:12:39] Who are creating more of a better seed bed
[1:12:43] and then drilling that seed because it
[1:12:45] only needs about a quarter inch seeded,
[1:12:48] much like a native prairie seed, for
[1:12:51] example, and seeding that by itself into a
[1:12:54] field. And it came out very robust.
[1:12:57] It was 2022 when I planted that.
[1:13:00] The planting window is usually the end of
[1:13:03] August for our part of the state.
[1:13:06] And it grows just a little bit.
[1:13:09] It's very slow to grow, much like a
[1:13:12] perennial prairie.
[1:13:13] And then it goes dormant in the winter.
[1:13:17] And then it is one of the first grasses
[1:13:20] to grow and turn green in the early
[1:13:23] spring. So 2023 was probably one of the
[1:13:26] worst drought years we ever had.
[1:13:29] So 2023, summer of 2023 here in Iowa I
[1:13:32] said we have about 3536 inches of rainfall
[1:13:35] on average. We had 10 inches of rainfall
[1:13:38] that entire year. And what I was seeing
[1:13:41] and witnessing was that that Kernza was
[1:13:44] still very robust, it was a beautiful
[1:13:47] stand, you know you see the grain heads
[1:13:50] you know waving in the wind much like
[1:13:53] wheat, but the ground you can see the
[1:13:56] ground between the rows of the Kernza, it
[1:13:59] was very dry, like hard as a rock kind
[1:14:02] of thing. But then all of a sudden I'd
[1:14:06] see, you know, I'd see so many earthworm
[1:14:09] middlings between the rows.
[1:14:10] And I saw mushrooms growing between the
[1:14:13] rows. And this is with 10 inches of rain
[1:14:16] that entire year, this was like August,
[1:14:19] you know, July or August.
[1:14:21] And I'm like, what is going on here?
[1:14:24] You know, we're in this drought, but I'm
[1:14:27] growing mushrooms and oak worms are coming
[1:14:30] up and, you know, creating this, you know,
[1:14:33] activity.
[1:14:34] And then it was one of the best crops
[1:14:38] of Pernza we'd ever, you know, we have
[1:14:41] since had many other years of Pernza.
[1:14:44] And the first year in that drought was one
[1:14:48] of the best harvest years.
[1:14:49] And the second year, so 2024, it was also
[1:14:53] very robust. But just in the month of May
[1:14:57] We had 12 inches of rain.
[1:14:59] And so I got to see Kernza on the
[1:15:03] flip side of the opposite extreme of an
[1:15:06] actual flood, you know, major flooding
[1:15:08] events, water, soil, surface, and
[1:15:10] underground, you know, coming at us or
[1:15:13] sort of at small part of a bottom of
[1:15:16] watershed.
[1:15:18] And I could step out into that Kernza in
[1:15:21] May and I wouldn't get any mud on my
[1:15:25] feet. After 12 inches of rain where corn
[1:15:28] and soybeans were just very small and soil
[1:15:32] was moving and water was moving all over
[1:15:35] the place. And that Kernza stood its
[1:15:38] ground and its root systems were so
[1:15:41] robust, must have been, at least in my
[1:15:44] mind, that's what I'm seeing.
[1:15:46] I'm not actually seeing them underground,
[1:15:48] but it, it absorbed a lot of water surface
[1:15:52] and you know Subsoil.
[1:15:54] And it just showed me firsthand how robust
[1:15:57] this potential of this plant is.
[1:15:59] And then we're able to graze it in the
[1:16:03] spring. We're able to graze it in the fall
[1:16:07] because it grows quite quickly, saving us
[1:16:10] on hay costs quite a bit.
[1:16:12] I mean, that first year of drought was, I
[1:16:16] mean, it was a lifesaver.
[1:16:18] 2024 turned droughty after June and it
[1:16:21] saved us on hay. I was able to graze
[1:16:25] Kernza into December.
[1:16:26] It just kept growing.
[1:16:27] And so the amount of money that I saved
[1:16:31] just on hay alone, that I didn't have to
[1:16:35] buy hay, was huge.
[1:16:36] So I guess after those two years, it kind
[1:16:40] of sold me on the fact that, wow, we
[1:16:44] need to have more of this.
[1:16:46] And we really need to support those
[1:16:49] research organizations that are helping
[1:16:52] bring more commercialization to or help
[1:16:54] bring more research to the perennial grain
[1:16:57] world. So, for example, Land Institute was
[1:17:01] a developer, is a developer in Kernza, and
[1:17:04] University of Minnesota, University of
[1:17:06] Missouri. There are some other
[1:17:09] universities across the United States that
[1:17:11] are studying perennial grains with Kernza
[1:17:14] first, but University of Minnesota Forever
[1:17:17] Green Initiative, you know, starting also
[1:17:19] with perennial wheat, and there's
[1:17:21] perennial rye, and across the world
[1:17:24] they're looking at perennial, the Land
[1:17:27] Institute is researching perennial rice
[1:17:29] and perennial sorghum and even perennial
[1:17:32] oats. So it's an exciting time, I think,
[1:17:35] as we are looking down the tunnel of
[1:17:39] climate change, of changing climate,
[1:17:41] whatever you want to call it.
[1:17:44] It is changing. And we as farmers need
[1:17:48] to be more resilient.
[1:17:49] We need to figure out, we need ways
[1:17:53] and pathways to be more resilient, to
[1:17:56] withstand these extremes.
[1:17:58] And perennial agriculture is one of the
[1:18:01] most resilient that I find that we can
[1:18:05] feed animals, we can feed people and it
[1:18:08] cools, it's a natural cool, you know,
[1:18:12] trees affect the water cycle, affect the
[1:18:15] carbon cycle. There are all these positive
[1:18:18] things that perennials bring to the
[1:18:21] landscape. And I think about, you know, a
[1:18:24] dream of mine is if every corn soybean
[1:18:27] Serving farmer around me could just put 10
[1:18:31] of their acres into perennials, what that
[1:18:33] could potentially do for our water
[1:18:36] quality, for our soil health, for erosion
[1:18:39] control, for the carbon emissions.
[1:18:41] It would be substantial, wouldn't it?
[1:18:43] It would be. Substantial.
[1:18:45] Yeah. Yeah. So, one of the things I share
[1:18:48] your enthusiasm for perennial agriculture,
[1:18:51] and I think there's is a lot of long
[1:18:54] term research that is in process and still
[1:18:57] needs to happen. But there are also so
[1:19:01] many things that we can already do.
[1:19:04] And one of the things on the podcast a
[1:19:07] year or two or a couple of several years
[1:19:11] ago, I hosted Austin Unru from Trees for
[1:19:14] Grazers, and I've had follow up
[1:19:17] conversations with him and with other
[1:19:19] people since then.
[1:19:20] And one of the things that has intrigued
[1:19:23] me is we have this.
[1:19:25] There seems to be kind of this inherent
[1:19:29] assumption that incorporating trees into
[1:19:31] agriculture is automatically and
[1:19:32] necessarily going to result in yield
[1:19:35] losses or in yield declines.
[1:19:37] And that might perhaps be true in some
[1:19:40] scenarios with certain combinations of
[1:19:42] specific types of trees and specific types
[1:19:45] of grains, but it's not necessarily true.
[1:19:48] And in fact, in Austin's work and with the
[1:19:51] dairy farmers who are incorporating
[1:19:53] locusts and other trees into pastures and
[1:19:56] grazing systems. They're reporting not
[1:19:58] just are they getting harvestable forage
[1:20:01] from the trees themselves, in the case of
[1:20:04] honey locusts, but they're also getting up
[1:20:07] to and quite consistently in the
[1:20:09] neighborhood of about 30 increases in
[1:20:11] forage productivity because grasses
[1:20:13] thrive. Many here in the East Coast, many
[1:20:16] of our cool season grasses thrive in
[1:20:19] partial shade, particularly in the summer.
[1:20:21] So, actually, yeah, we can actually have a
[1:20:25] year improvement effect if we get it right
[1:20:28] and not just a yield drag effect.
[1:20:32] And I'll offer one thought on tile
[1:20:34] plugging. So, we live in a part of the
[1:20:38] world here where I live, we have very
[1:20:41] heavy clay soils, 40 to 45 inches of
[1:20:44] annual rainfall, and our soils do not
[1:20:47] drain well at all, even subsurface
[1:20:50] drainage, even in the top, in the A
[1:20:53] horizon, A and B horizon can be very
[1:20:56] challenging if we get heavy rainfall
[1:20:58] events, which seem to be coming much more
[1:21:02] common. And so most agricultural fields
[1:21:04] increasingly are tiled, even a lot of
[1:21:07] orchards and perennial crops are tiled.
[1:21:09] And so what we've found quite simply is
[1:21:12] that as long as the tile drains properly
[1:21:15] and there is no water sitting in the tile,
[1:21:19] the roots seem to air Prune, at least on
[1:21:23] the tree fruit and along forest edges.
[1:21:25] It is when you have a tile that isn't
[1:21:29] installed perfectly level and you have a
[1:21:32] shallow dip or a boulder and water sits in
[1:21:35] there, that's where the roots go, and then
[1:21:39] you get tile plugging.
[1:21:41] So that's been our experience over the
[1:21:43] last couple of decades as we've been
[1:21:46] playing around with drain tile and orchard
[1:21:48] systems and so forth.
[1:21:50] Interesting. Yeah.
[1:21:50] To ensure that any tile that was installed
[1:21:53] in the 1940s is level, you know, is a tile
[1:21:57] that is perfectly level, well, I guess
[1:21:59] TBD, we will see here.
[1:22:01] Well, it may actually, I mean, I'm
[1:22:03] guessing at that time period, a lot of it
[1:22:06] was the bottoms of the trenches were
[1:22:09] probably hand smooth and it was installed
[1:22:11] by hand. So it probably does drain quite
[1:22:14] well, unless it's been damaged.
[1:22:16] Yeah, yeah. That's very true.
[1:22:19] Very true. I've noticed that on our
[1:22:22] other conventional farm, helping the tile
[1:22:25] guys dig out tile, I've learned a
[1:22:29] lot from them and spending time with
[1:22:32] their crew on how to install tile
[1:22:36] and what old tile looks like, especially
[1:22:39] when it's broken or, you know.
[1:22:42] And it's not often trees in those
[1:22:46] scenarios, it's rodents is the issue.
[1:22:49] I have fascinating history.
[1:22:51] We all have fascinating historical
[1:22:53] stories, but when my grandfather bought
[1:22:56] his first farm, he dug, well, this
[1:23:00] was just immediately post second World
[1:23:03] War, he dug all the trenches and
[1:23:06] installed drain tile through all the
[1:23:09] heaviest and lowest spots on his farm
[1:23:13] by hand.
[1:23:15] No trenchers, himself, one person, and a
[1:23:18] shovel. Can you imagine that?
[1:23:20] No, no. But wow, that should be some sort
[1:23:24] of like resilience challenge.
[1:23:25] Yeah. Wendy, yeah, thank you immensely for
[1:23:28] being here and for sharing your wisdom and
[1:23:31] your thoughts and the things that you're
[1:23:34] working on. May you have lots of success
[1:23:38] on the farm. I look forward to having more
[1:23:41] conversations with you in the future.
[1:23:44] Thank you, John. The team at AEA and I
[1:23:47] are dedicated to bringing this show to you
[1:23:51] because we believe that knowledge and
[1:23:53] information is the foundation of
[1:23:55] successful regenerative systems.
[1:23:56] At AEA, we believe that growing better
[1:23:59] quality food and making more money from
[1:24:02] your crops is possible.
[1:24:04] And since 2006, we've worked with leading
[1:24:07] professional growers to help them do just
[1:24:10] that. At AEA, we don't guess, we test, we
[1:24:13] analyze, and we provide recommendations
[1:24:15] based on scientific data, knowledge, and
[1:24:18] experience.
[1:24:19] We've developed products that are uniquely
[1:24:21] positioned to help growers make more money
[1:24:23] with regenerative agriculture.
[1:24:24] If you are a professional grower who
[1:24:27] believes in testing instead of guessing,
[1:24:29] someone who believes in a better, more
[1:24:31] regenerative way to grow, visit
[1:24:33] advancingecoagcom and contact us to see if
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