# Most Replayed Moment: Don’t Brush Your Teeth After Sugar! The Best Oral Care Routine

An episode of [The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1291423644), 7 Nov 2025, 21 min.

Audio: https://pdst.fm/e/pscrb.fm/rss/p/mgln.ai/e/1390/claritaspod.com/measure/p.podderapp.com/2544644999/mgln.ai/e/1651/episode.flightcast.com/01K9CRK02JTG0B15MRFXM7CGCR.mp3

Dr Victoria Sampson is a leading integrative dentist, researcher, and founder of The Health Society clinic in London. She is internationally recognised for her pioneering work on the oral microbiome and its links to systemic health. In today’s Moment, Dr Sampson reveals the link between oral bacteria and cancers, and how your daily habits - like when you brush your teeth or what you drink - can significantly influence your oral microbiome. She shares practical tips to protect your mouth and the domino effect that can have on your overall health. Listen to the full episode here: Spotify: https://g2ul0.app.link/cB5kBuhQ4Xb Apple: https://g2ul0.app.link/m1rg8qkQ4Xb Watch the Episodes On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/%20TheDiaryOfACEO/videos The Health Society Clinic: https://www.thehealthsociety.co.uk/

## Transcript

[0:00] I was reading about a study in mice and that linked that oral bacteria to tumor growth.
[0:09] Are you familiar with that study?
[0:11] Yes.
[0:12] And it's that specific oral bacteria, so the fusavector and nucleotum, which has been
[0:15] shown to accelerate tumor growth within mice, but also for colorectal cancer and breast
[0:22] cancer as well.
[0:23] And what's your belief there?
[0:25] I know this research is fairly new, but do you think there is a causal relationship
[0:29] of a significant causal relationship between the health of our oral microbiome and our
[0:32] probability of developing some form of cancer?
[0:36] I wouldn't yet say causal.
[0:39] I think that for most cancers, it is multifactorial, and there are a lot of things that can impact
[0:48] whether or not you get the cancer and how aggressive the cancer is.
[0:51] I do think that oral health and some specific oral bacteria are risk factors and can definitely
[0:59] increase the aggression of those cancers or even the initiation of them.
[1:05] There's also been research, and I think I'm waiting for the research to be published on
[1:10] what they're doing is they've created a antibiotic, which only kills that oral bacteria that I was
[1:15] talking about.
[1:16] So fusavector and nucleotum, and they are going to be issuing that antibiotic to those patients
[1:22] who have the colorectal cancer, which has the oral bacteria, to see whether or not it slows
[1:27] down their progression or improves their prognosis.
[1:31] So if I see those results and it shows it, then there's for sure a strong causative link
[1:36] between the two, but for now, I would say that it's multifactorial and it's definitely a risk factor.
[1:42] That oral bacteria that you're describing that you called it fuzobacterium, what is it that
[1:47] causes that? Is it something that I'm eating? Is it a lifestyle choice I'm making?
[1:51] Multiple things for oral hygiene. Some of us genetically will have higher levels of it.
[1:57] It's what we eat, it's who we're kissing, it's what we're breathing in.
[2:01] Does my girlfriend have it?
[2:04] So we don't have to see, but it's another thing that's the beauty of being able to test
[2:09] these things now is that you can actually see and also what's it's strange is that green tea.
[2:15] Something so simple is extremely effective at killing fusavectorium nucleotum.
[2:19] So it's just knowing those types of things, being able to do the test, knowing the right treatment
[2:24] plans and recommendations based from that, we know green tea is good for us and now we can really
[2:29] understand why. Okay, that's interesting. You have actually tested Jack over there, right?
[2:33] And you said to me before we start recording that he's got a ton of that fuzobacterium.
[2:38] Yes, he does, yeah. It's really getting out of control. It's really badly out of control.
[2:43] So I've given him a big vast of green tea as a gift.
[2:49] Green tea. Yes.
[2:51] Green tea. This guy's going to edit that out. This is the problem.
[3:01] Green tea. Yeah. That's good for my home microbiome. Yeah, really good.
[3:04] Dains, but really good. It's anti-inflammatory. It helps with what we call oxidative stress.
[3:11] So this is basically stress for the body and it's antibacterial. So it actually is very effective
[3:18] at killing fusavectorium nucleotum. What is your opinion of the impact that coffee has on my
[3:23] oral microbiome? I'm slightly biased because I love coffee. Okay.
[3:28] But there is no negative impact of coffee on the oral microbiome directly.
[3:35] Coffee does dry your mouth out and so you have reduced saliva and that can actually
[3:42] cause problems for the oral microbiome. So the saliva is super important in your mouth.
[3:47] It provides all of the food, the proteins, everything for the bacteria in your mouth.
[3:52] So it's kind of like this delivery service, your delivery, it's traveling around,
[3:57] providing all of the food and bacteria, sorry, food to the bacteria.
[4:01] And that's what keeps the good bacteria alive and happy. So when you have a dry mouth,
[4:05] let's say you're drinking lots of coffee or you're very nervous or you are on anti-depressants,
[4:10] for example, which are a big one, then you just don't have as much saliva. So those bacteria
[4:16] don't have as much food and those bacteria die and then you get bad bacteria growing in replacement.
[4:23] What about tea? We're a nation of tea drinkers in the UK.
[4:26] Similar. So it also does dry your mouth not as bad as coffee, but otherwise no problems
[4:31] other than staining. What about if I put loads of sugar in it because a lot of people
[4:34] put a lot of sugar in it. Okay, no, no, no, no, no, no. So actually sugar in your tea is even
[4:39] worse than you having a biscuit, for example. So because the sugar dissolves in your hot tea
[4:46] and the tea is hot, when you drink it, it can actually cause more problems. Another thing with
[4:52] sugar is I have a sweet tooth, I love sugar, but it's about how you eat your sugar.
[4:57] So let's say if you have your hot tea with five lumps of sugar in there and you're sipping it
[5:03] over an hour or two, that's where you start to see a lot of problems. So actually you need to be
[5:08] having a sugar attack, so just all the sugar in one go. And that way your mouth has all the sugar
[5:13] in one go and it's able to neutralize the saliva and get back to a good state as quickly as possible.
[5:19] Every time you sip your tea with sugar, what happens is that the saliva has to go from acidic,
[5:25] back to neutral, acidic, back to neutral, acidic. And then it starts to just not work properly,
[5:30] and the saliva just days acidic. And that's where you start to see decay. So you want to just
[5:34] down the tea. Down the tea or I don't know if you're a M&M guy, have all your M&Ms in one go,
[5:40] don't snack on M&Ms every 10 minutes. What about other drinks like, I don't know,
[5:44] Coca-Cola's and these other sort of fizzy drinks that might have artificial sweetness in
[5:49] things like that. So they're not as bad as your natural sugars, but for example something like
[5:56] your Coke or or Fanta or whatever, it's also very acidic and it can actually cause erosion as well.
[6:03] So this is essentially where the outer layer of your tooth or the enamel is just worn away from having
[6:09] lots and lots of these fizzy drinks. So what are the very, having seen my results, but generally from
[6:15] seeing the thousands and thousands of results that you've seen? What are some of the easiest things
[6:20] that I could do to help correct that situation and have perfect oral health and a perfect oral
[6:27] microbiome? So what we've done is, if you were to do the test, you would have all of the personalised
[6:33] recommendations for you. So we'd tell you to have green tea, to have honey, all of those types of
[6:37] things which have been shown through research to benefit your microbiome in your case specifically.
[6:45] But if we were just talking about someone who hasn't done the microbiome test and wants to just
[6:49] make sure that they have as balanced of a microbiome as possible, diet is obviously very
[6:55] important. So what we're talking about, that sugar attack, making sure that you only have
[6:59] one sugar attack a day, you're not having sugar consistently because it does alter your saliva
[7:05] pH, the type of toothpaste that you're using. I like to keep it simple, you don't need to,
[7:10] we don't need to make things super complicated, you don't have to spend that much money.
[7:13] Having the right toothpaste, right toothbrush and the right floss is honestly as much as
[7:19] is the most necessarily thing that you need. Okay, so in terms of brushing, you give some sort
[7:25] of practical advice around when we should brush. What is that? And is there any time where I
[7:30] shouldn't brush my teeth? You should never brush straight after anything acidic or sugary.
[7:35] So what you end up doing is grinding the sugar or the acid into your teeth.
[7:41] So actually you should wait 30 minutes until you brush your teeth.
[7:45] That's interesting because when I eat something sugary, I feel like I need to brush my teeth to
[7:49] get rid of it. Yeah, no, no. So you want to wait 30 minutes. So instead, you can choose some sugar
[7:54] free gum or there are lots of pastels that we use. So like I use like chewable mince
[8:00] and you can chew one of those and it will actually neutralize your saliva really quickly
[8:05] so that you don't have that acid causing the demonarization. And you said that I should brush my
[8:10] teeth first thing in the morning and last thing before I get a bed. Yes. Okay, just because that's
[8:15] the sort of biggest window, I guess, that's the best way to. Yeah, the most important time to
[8:19] brush your teeth is right before you go to bed because you spend two minutes spreading all this
[8:25] lovely goodness on your teeth. And then when you go to sleep, going back to saliva, when you
[8:29] sleep, your saliva flow reduces massively. So all of a sudden these bacteria are left to their
[8:35] own devices. And if you don't have good toothpaste there, then they can cause a lot of problems.
[8:39] And do I spit or do I rinse after I've brushed my teeth?
[8:43] Spits. So you should never rinse your mouth out with water after you brush your teeth. So
[8:48] brush, brush, brush, spit into the basin and that's it. Reason being again, going back to my
[8:53] sunscreen analogy, imagine you spend two minutes putting all this lovely sunscreen all over your
[8:58] skin to then just go and have a shower right before you go into the sun. So with the toothpaste,
[9:03] you spend two minutes putting all of that on your teeth. And then if you rinse it, then you're
[9:07] actually removing all of that goodness from your teeth and gums and it's kind of like you haven't
[9:12] done anything. Toothbrushes. Yes. Which toothbrush should I use this one or an electric one?
[9:20] I generally prefer an electric toothbrush. Why? Usually they kind of do the work for you. So it
[9:26] just means that patients have better oral health because most people don't know how to brush their
[9:32] teeth properly actually. We're never really taught or trained or we get taught by our parents.
[9:36] Our parents don't really know. They've been taught by their parents. So a lot of people don't
[9:40] actually know how to brush their teeth. Number one, number two, we often don't brush for as long
[9:44] as we think that we are. So we're meant to brush for two minutes. The average is 20 to 30 seconds.
[9:50] And we think that we're brushing for two minutes, but we're not. So with an electric toothbrush,
[9:53] it times you and then also a pressure sensor. So the electric toothbrush often will have a pressure
[9:58] sensor which will show you whether or not you're brushing too hard or you're brushing at the right
[10:02] pressure and that will reduce your chance of recession. Can you show me on one of those tooth models
[10:07] in front of you the area of the mouth and teeth that people most often overlook? Yes.
[10:15] Can I have your teeth? Yes. So I would say the area that people usually struggle with the most
[10:22] is the insides of their very back bottom teeth. So inside where next to my tongue?
[10:27] Basically, yeah, just near your tongue, basically. What a lot of people will do is they'll kind of
[10:32] they'll go on the inside and they brush their teeth like this. Okay. Whereas actually you want to get
[10:36] your elbow up and you want to brush a lot more like a 90 degree angle when you're getting there.
[10:41] It looks like you're brushing the gums a little bit. A little bit. Yes, you actually do want to
[10:44] brush the gums a little bit. And then when we're on the outsides of the teeth, we want to kind of
[10:49] brush at a 30 degree angle. So rotational movements and at a 30 degree angle. So not straight like a 90
[10:55] degree, but kind of towards the gum margin. And by doing circular movements, we're essentially kind
[11:01] of massaging the gums and getting rid of the bacteria from under the gum and then flicking it out.
[11:05] Okay. Yeah. So just like that. And then I always tell everyone it's really important to kind of have
[11:12] a method behind your toothbrushing. So don't go like brush and then go there and then up there.
[11:16] And you know, because you'll never brush properly. And so always start, let's say on the left hand
[11:21] side, go do all the outsides and then do all the biting surfaces and then do all the insides and
[11:25] then do the same on the top teeth as well. And that model there, you've got another model in front
[11:30] of you, which is like a see through model. What does that show us? So this is to show you what an
[11:36] implant looks like. A lot of people don't know what implants look like and how it looks like if
[11:41] it was within your jaw, also what all the roots look like. And then also if you look on the other
[11:45] side, you can see this tooth, which has the black within it. And it's got like a red bubble at the
[11:51] root of it. So this is a tooth that's had a root canal done to it and has an infection at the
[11:56] root of that tooth. So that's an abscess. And a lot of people don't actually know what that
[12:00] looks like. They only feel too thick. But this is what do you think is actually in their jaw?
[12:05] When our teeth get teeth, is that the right word? Is that a plural? When our tooth, what's the plural
[12:10] of teeth? It's teeth. Yeah. When our teeth get stained, what we often do is we'll take some sort
[12:17] of whitening toothpaste or we'll go to a dentist or a hygienist or something and ask them to
[12:21] whiten our teeth. No, I've always been a bit scared of that because there must be a cost to this
[12:27] whitening industry. Should we be whitening our teeth? Is there any healthy way to whiten our teeth?
[12:33] Yes. So you've got two different types of staining. One, which is extrinsic. So that's basically
[12:39] your coffee, your tea, your smoking, super easy to get rid of. You just have to go to your hygienist
[12:45] and get a hygiene done and they'll get rid of the stains pretty quickly. Or you can try a
[12:50] whitening toothpaste. Be very careful with a lot of those whitening toothpaste because they can be
[12:54] quite abrasive and damage the animal actually. So it's kind of like exfoliating your teeth,
[12:59] but your teeth don't grow back. So if you keep on exfoliating and getting rid of that surface
[13:04] layer of an animal over a long amount of time, that can be quite an issue and quite problematic.
[13:09] You get sensitive teeth? Yes, sensitive teeth. And then the underlying tooth will start to shine
[13:14] through and that's quite yellow. So you actually start ending up doing the opposite of what you
[13:18] wanted to do. Then whitening. So you should do that professionally. Don't go and buy some
[13:24] over-the-counter online thing because a lot of the time either they don't have the right
[13:30] percentages and they can actually damage the teeth and the gums really badly. So you want to
[13:36] get that done professionally. If you get it done by a good brand and even within the professional
[13:41] world, there are some whitening products out there which are really bad for the teeth and others
[13:45] which are actually really good for the teeth. So we use one in particular, it's called in
[13:50] Lytin and the whitening for one day is the equivalent of having a Coca-Cola. So thinking about it,
[13:59] I mean, I'm sure everyone has had Coca-Cola in their life. Having a Coca-Cola every day for,
[14:03] let's say, five or six days is okay in the grand scheme of things. It's not going to massively
[14:08] damage your teeth at all. Okay, so there is safe ways to do that. Okay, good. And is there any way
[14:13] to remove plaque yourself without having to go to a dental hygienist? So you can try a water
[14:18] fluster. I've just bought one of those things but it doesn't feel powerful enough because when I go
[14:22] to the hygienist, I don't know what they're using but it's so strong that it blasts my mouth
[14:29] off and my mouth feels so different after. And I wanted to know if I could buy one of those for my
[14:33] home but I think it's a little bit dangerous. Well, the reason I think that the water flusters are not
[14:39] high intensity is because people can damage their teeth if they don't use it correctly.
[14:44] So kind of know, there are some supplements that you can take to reduce the amount of plaque
[14:50] that builds up and that actually does work quite effectively. I mean, there are two more. There's
[14:56] a couple more things there that you have in your part that we not talked about. These are probiotics.
[15:00] Okay. So going back to our microbiome, probiotics are basically good bacteria. So not everyone needs
[15:07] them, but a probiotic essentially will put good bacteria into the microbiome. And if it's got the
[15:13] right environment to live in, then it will continue to grow there basically. If you're eating the right
[15:18] things. Exactly. If you're eating the right things, you've got prebiotics, you know, all of those
[15:22] types of things, then then this will be really effective. So these are two different options.
[15:25] This is a mouthwash. And again, on the microbiome test that we've created a wireless one,
[15:31] we look at all the levels of good bacteria and then we'll recommend a probiotic based on
[15:36] what good bacteria you are missing. So a lot of us are actually genetically, we've been born
[15:41] without certain good bacteria in our microbiomes. And so this is really lovely to supplement them. So
[15:47] this is, it's a mouthwash, but it's in a powder form. So you take a teaspoon, you mix it with some
[15:52] water and that activates the probiotic and then you rinse it around and you swallow it. So it's a
[15:59] kind of a two and one for your gut. This is a pill. So it's a tablet, you chew it and then you can
[16:04] swallow it. So this is a, this is super easy to and and I love these as well. Very easy to use.
[16:10] Victoria, what's the most important thing that we haven't talked about today that we should have
[16:14] talked about today? The only thing that I think you haven't mentioned that your viewers might
[16:20] benefit from is the use of straws. Straws are very, very important to use for a sugar and also for
[16:26] acid. So drinking through a straw actually helps you bypass all of your teeth. So if you're having
[16:32] something acidic or really sugary or even something staining, then it bypasses the teeth and
[16:37] goes straight to back of your throat so you can swallow it. So this helps reduce your chance of decay
[16:43] of tooth wear and also staining as well. But specifically if it's bad for you because you,
[16:47] I'm sure there's some things which are good for the oral microbiome that you do want to be in the mouth.
[16:51] Yes, yes. So if you're taking your probiotics or whatever then of course those are great. Like for
[16:56] example, you know, I'm human. I like a nice Coca-Cola once in a while and I'll drink it through a straw
[17:02] or if I have alcohol, I'll also drink that through a straw as long as it's not wine, but
[17:07] about smoking and vaping. So yeah, smoking and vaping neither of them are good for the oral
[17:13] microbiome. It goes back to dry mouth. So smoking will dry your mouth out and then you don't have
[17:20] the saliva and the saliva can't do what it wants to. It stops vascularization so it stops blood flow
[17:27] to your mouth and so a lot of smokers actually will not have bleeding gums. That doesn't mean that
[17:33] they don't have gum disease but because they are smoking so much the blood vessels are already
[17:39] really tight and constricted from the nicotine. So they don't ever get bleeding gums even though
[17:44] they have gum disease. And then the third thing is that actually we know that smoking is very
[17:49] strongly associated with one of the biggest risk factors for gum disease. If someone's now curious
[17:55] about their oral microbiome and the work that you're doing, what is the sort of easiest entry point
[18:01] to learn more to get themselves checked or to, I don't know, to resolve some of the issues that are
[18:07] causal or a consequence of having an unhealthy microbiome. Where do they start? How do they find you?
[18:12] We have a clinic in central London called the Health Society. We opened about a year and a half
[18:18] ago now and our aim was to put the mouth back into the body to explain to patients exactly what's
[18:24] going on in their mouth. And we can do that through microbiome testing, other saliva tests. We look
[18:30] at your blood glucose levels, your vitamin D levels, we've got packages, we have an infrared
[18:34] sauna, we have a nutritionist and the ideas that we're working on together because one of the
[18:39] issues I was seeing was that patients they want to understand what's going on in their mouth
[18:44] and they want to optimize it but they don't understand a lot of what dentistry is all about.
[18:49] We used to live in a world where the dentist would say, okay, you need two fillings and you've got
[18:53] gum disease and you're not brushing your teeth and that was the end of it and you would just
[18:57] listen to them and you get your work done. But now we are trying to essentially decode dentistry
[19:03] and explain it in a way that patients can understand. So I would say, for them bias but come over,
[19:08] come to the clinic, we can explain everything or you can do an oral microbiome test and you can
[19:13] actually understand yourself what bacteria, what genetic mutations you have, what inflammation you
[19:18] have, what products you should start using and then based on that decide on what dentist you want
[19:22] to go to for any treatment if needed. What if I'm in Australia or Canada or New Zealand or America,
[19:27] what can I do? So we're actually rolling out the oral microbiome test to all of those countries
[19:33] so you can actually buy it the moment through that, you just have to email us. But otherwise the,
[19:38] you know, I'm not the only one, there are other people who are doing this type of dentistry
[19:43] and are thinking in this type of way. So you would have to do a little bit of research but I guess
[19:49] maybe follow me on Instagram and I can give some top tips. And if we sit here in 10 years time,
[19:54] what are you hoping the world looks like as a relates to your oral microbiome,
[19:57] people's understanding of the regulations, what are you hoping for if you could waver one?
[20:02] I am hoping that the mouth is put back into the body in the sense that dentistry and medicine
[20:09] are fully integrated within each other. So you can go to your dentist and you can get a saliva test
[20:14] and that could flag up issues with your heart or diabetes and you will go and see your
[20:19] diabetesologist. And we link everything together. Also my other dream is that people start
[20:26] testing their saliva and they understand that, you know, blood is not the only way that we can
[20:30] understand things that are going on within our body. What you just listened to was a most
[20:36] replayed moment from a previous episode. If you want to listen to that full episode,
[20:41] I've linked it down below. Check the description. Thank you.

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