# Most Replayed Moment: Buddhist Monk Reveals How To Break Free From Pain and Anger!

An episode of [The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1291423644), 13 Feb 2026, 31 min.

Audio: https://pdst.fm/e/pscrb.fm/rss/p/mgln.ai/e/1390/claritaspod.com/measure/p.podderapp.com/2544644999/mgln.ai/e/1651/episode.flightcast.com/01KH12E9MVVX1M1TV1Y9ZEN1ZG.mp3

Gelong Thubten is a Buddhist monk, meditation teacher, and former actor who has spent over six years in silent retreat. In this moment, he explains how Buddhism offers a radically different way to relate to pain, and how we could be unknowingly feeding our own suffering. Drawing on his experiences of trauma, depression, and panic attacks, he shares an insightful approach to meeting grief, forgiveness, and emotional pain with compassion. Listen to the full episode here: Spotify: https://g2ul0.app.link/18yElRtyC0b Apple: https://g2ul0.app.link/f3r7jxByC0b Watch the Episodes On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/%20TheDiaryOfACEO/videos Gelong Thubten: https://www.gelongthubten.com/

## Transcript

[0:00] Early when you said that in Buddhism they talk about an emptiness which is kind of this
[0:10] realising that life isn't so solid and your identity is a mirage and all these kinds
[0:16] of things, it almost sounded like that's the opposite of like victimhood because when
[0:22] we think about victimhood it is I create an identity for myself and then I create a story
[0:27] around that identity which has suffered some kind of injustice and then I kind of live
[0:31] out that injustice. How does Buddhism think about victimhood and identity and trauma I guess?
[0:38] So of course we identify incredibly strongly with our past and we in so many ways are
[0:44] prisoners of what has happened to us in our past and it is totally understandable of course
[0:50] but Buddhism brings in a whole fresh perspective which is that you are not your past. I mean
[0:55] even on a physical level every cell in your body has changed and your mind has changed.
[1:00] You are right now in the present the past is an illusion as is the future and we spend
[1:07] so much time in the past and future or trying to manipulate the present whereas with meditation
[1:14] you are learning to be in the now and not be, it doesn't mean you don't plan or don't
[1:20] remember but you are learning to be to cling less to the past and future and you are learning
[1:25] to cling less to or hold less to the idea that things are really as solid as you think
[1:31] they are. I mean it is very scientific that there is a Buddhist meditation which literally
[1:36] is about a table like here we are with this table and they say if you take apart this
[1:41] table you will find it doesn't exist because the table as it seems right now is a top with
[1:49] legs you take the bits apart and now where is your notion of table you have these bits
[1:55] of wood or metal or whatever it is and you start kind of dissecting that further and further
[2:00] and further. This is where Buddhism and particle physics become you know talking a lot there
[2:06] is a lot of conversation there in that the smaller and smaller you go into these wood
[2:12] shavings and then particles and can you find the smallest part that makes up all of reality
[2:19] and Buddhists would say no because if it is a part it has parts there is no such thing
[2:23] as the partless particle because if it is a particle it can be further subdivided so
[2:32] we can't find the smallest base that makes up all of matter what we are experiencing is
[2:37] more like a dream or an illusion and the reality we live in of course it feels very
[2:41] solid you know if I throw this cup at somebody it is going to hit their head and hurt them
[2:47] it is no point saying well it is all empty don't worry about it but the idea behind this
[2:51] philosophy of understanding things not to be as solid as they are is that we can learn
[2:55] to suffer less because we spend so much of our energy constantly reacting to things as
[3:01] if they really solid and really real and there is nothing that can be done about them whether
[3:05] that be people or objects in the world around us or our mind itself and if we can decel
[3:11] and solidify some of that we could become more free we will carry so many burdens in
[3:16] this regard you know it could be grief it could be heartbreak it could be a colleague
[3:20] at work that doesn't dislike us comment in our Instagram page of someone something someone
[3:25] said about us how does one go about alleviating ourselves from this kind of burden yeah so
[3:36] I for me it's very much about dropping the story and looking at the feeling okay explain
[3:44] that to me so for me this became very very important practice for me when I was in a long
[3:55] retreat so I went into a very long retreat for four years I became a monk for a year
[4:02] and I stayed a bit longer stayed a bit longer it was after about four years that I decided
[4:06] to do this for life and I took lifelong vows and then I knew about these long I did some short
[4:11] retreats but I knew about these long retreats but it wasn't until 12 years later that the opportunity
[4:17] came up to go into a long retreat four years long where you were really just cut off from the world
[4:23] for that length of time no nobody goes in or out and you are meditating many many hours a day
[4:31] and it was the most frightening experience in my life because I was in there alone with with
[4:37] my own thoughts and emotions it's not a completely solitary retreat there are other monks they're
[4:41] all doing their own meditation in their rooms so there is a kind of group but you are very much
[4:45] alone as well and for me the whole thing was for the first two years was just horrific amounts of
[4:54] depression misery pain anguish anxiety that would build into panic attacks I was really really
[5:02] shocked by what happened to me in there because I think I thought I'd you know I'd been a monk
[5:08] for 12 years and I'd already started to you know give a few talks about meditation and
[5:15] maybe I thought I was quite sorted but I wasn't and I got in there and really fell apart
[5:20] but it was an amazing thing that happened to me because that falling apart forced me
[5:26] after a while to to learn how to engage with what I'm talking about which is looking at the
[5:32] suffering and working with that with meditation looking at the suffering so for me during those
[5:39] first two years of the retreat I was completely obsessed with the story because I was experiencing
[5:47] these horrendous feelings of heartbreak and feelings of depression anxiety just kind of a whole
[5:57] mass of suffering inside myself and I was trying to almost do therapy on myself and think okay
[6:03] let's you know thinking memories were coming up from the past and thinking about things that had
[6:08] happened in my past and is this why I'm suffering now and how do I resolve that and the more I went
[6:14] down that road the worse it got and I found myself really disconnected from Buddhism and it was a
[6:22] really frightening experience because I'm there in a four year retreat I'm a monk and I was feeling
[6:29] completely alienated from the whole thing I I kind of wanted to just get away from it I wanted
[6:34] to run away and things only changed when I hit rock bottom like hugely in that I actually
[6:45] I climbed over the wall of the retreat to run away I couldn't take it anymore I at one
[6:50] morning I had the most immense panic attack I've ever had and I just like saw red and just ran
[6:57] elected out of the retreat which is unthinkable you know in a four year retreat you're not supposed
[7:02] to leave but I jumped over the wall and tried to escape I say try to escape as if I was in some kind
[7:07] of you know prison or cult it's not like that people do leave retreats but for me it was this
[7:11] kind of dramatic get out of there and run away and I remember like freaking out and running
[7:22] and running and running down this road in the rain this was on a very you know remote area of a
[7:27] Scottish island and then just stopping and thinking what are you doing what what has happened to
[7:33] you and I just stopped and then went back and I asked the leaders of the retreat if I could be
[7:38] let back in and they said well no you've left but I really begged them because I had such clarity
[7:44] in that moment I wanted to go back in and they said okay the advent of my monastery said okay stay
[7:49] stay in a little caravan on the edge of the retreat boundary for a week for seven days and think
[7:54] about what you're doing and then we'll see if you will let you back in and during that time I
[8:02] I thought really deeply and I really I really knew I wanted to go back in because there was at that
[8:06] moment a thought of shall I give up being a monk I give up the whole thing I can't do this it's
[8:11] made me so miserable but I really knew in that moment what what my purpose was I knew I wanted to
[8:17] go back in and carry on but I also knew I'd been tormenting myself with my past and that I hadn't
[8:26] worked out how to how to heal myself I've been sinking so badly and if I was to go back in there
[8:36] I would have to try a complete new approach why did you choose to go back in because I really
[8:43] strongly believed that it was what I want to do with my life and a part of me thought don't give
[8:50] something up when you're freaking out because you will regret it if you're going to give this thing up
[8:57] give it up from a place of clarity knowing that there's something better for you out there don't
[9:01] give up because you're having a panic attack and you can't take it that's the wrong kind of timing
[9:07] to make a life change because I do I really do believe in what I'm doing I I this is the life I've
[9:15] chosen for myself and I want to do it but it got so difficult I couldn't take it anymore
[9:20] why did you want to do it if something is painful and causing you anxiety because I because I felt
[9:25] that this this pain I'm going through I've the methods are there I just need to know how to use
[9:33] them and I could learn to conquer this I this pain could be the breakthrough most people in
[9:41] in their lives when they think about the things that give them anxiety or pain or fear you know we
[9:45] live as sort of discomfort avoiding humans so we try and run to run to comfort pleasure exactly
[9:51] so life is hard let's run from it exactly on a plane fly to another country yeah and try and
[9:57] just set up a new life somewhere else it doesn't work because you go to your new life and the
[10:02] thing that has been haunting you like a shadow goes with you you can't run from yourself
[10:08] you can you can run to the end of the earth and that thing that has been tormenting you is part
[10:15] of you and until you learn to integrate that it will always trip you up and so I went back into
[10:22] that retreat knowing okay this is your last chance if you don't if you if you mess this up again
[10:30] that's it you know forget it so it was a real like make or break situation and I went back in and I
[10:37] I I um everything changed because I found I I had to find a new a different way of dealing with
[10:48] that suffering what was that okay so I'm back in there and it's coming up again the depression the
[10:53] anxiety that the pain that to me it felt like it felt like like something like that was piercing me
[11:05] it felt like a it felt like there was like a knife constantly twisting twisting and turning in
[11:11] my heart all right in the middle of me it was really painful and what I've been doing up until
[11:18] that point was just trying to get that knife out and also thinking why is it there is it because
[11:23] of what happened to me when I was 14 is it what happened to you when I was 17 is it this is it that
[11:27] is it my my family what is it that's the story I say story I'm not I'm not I'm not belittling
[11:34] people's stories I'm just saying it's the narrative isn't it so I I decided to to use the knife
[11:44] as the meditation to to actually meditate on it and and the the whole thing starts to change when
[11:54] you do that because until that point you've been if until that point you've been trying to get
[12:00] rid of your suffering or get rid of your pain but if you turn your pain into your meditation
[12:06] you're moving towards it and how can it hurt you if you've decided to move towards it you you
[12:14] you've made that choice so what I started to do was just focus on the pain but try to bypass
[12:22] the judgments I don't like this this is so terrible why am I depressed why am I anxious
[12:26] and just feel the feeling and it's a sensation in the body because one of the key instructions
[12:36] in meditation is when you focus your mind you focus it with less judgment this is good this is bad
[12:42] you just focus so you're focusing on that feeling without pushing it away without saying why do I feel
[12:48] like this but just the feeling and it you start it starts to change it starts to change because
[12:58] you're accepting it my teachers had always said to me they'd always go on and on about acceptance
[13:04] and I just I just wanted to hit them when they said it because it sounded so grim you know you got
[13:08] to accept yourself or you got to accept your suffering to me that sounded like you're going to for
[13:13] the rest of your life be dragging this bag of rocks up a hill you know acceptance is so miserable
[13:18] and so boring I didn't realize that what they meant was was compassion and self acceptance at a very
[13:26] very deep level so so I was I was focusing on that feeling in my body and trying not to go into
[13:33] the stories about it or the hatred of it and just move towards it and and kind of become become
[13:40] one with that pain and then you relax and something kind of releases and I think it works on
[13:46] a chemical level because basically when you're when you're trying to push pain away you're creating
[13:50] enormous amounts of cortisol in your body stress hormone when you relax the endorphins arise you
[13:56] start to feel happy I mean it's quite bizarre that the thing that has hurt you so much starts to turn
[14:02] into a kind of joyful feeling and you start to think oh wow okay so happiness is nothing to do
[14:10] with somebody being nice to me or this object or that thing happiness is about being okay with
[14:15] your suffering and and and not just being okay with it but actually sending love into the place
[14:24] in yourself that you hated so much so for me that what started to change was from from from having
[14:34] a feeling like a knife twisting inside me and hurting me and wanting to get rid of it
[14:37] I found ways to hold that with with love and I started to have this
[14:45] image in my head of as if I had found a like a frightened rabbit or a bird with a broken
[14:51] wing and I'm holding that in my hand with tenderness I'd never been able to do that for myself
[14:58] I had never ever been able to be kind to myself
[15:03] everything in my life until up until that point had been so harsh and so self-hating
[15:12] and I think you know in my teenage years when I was trying to become a successful actor
[15:19] I think that was the drive was I hate myself so I better get loads of people to love me instead
[15:24] because I can't do it I'm not saying all actors like that by no means but there is a kind of actor
[15:29] who is like that we know that and that was me and then you know even as a as a as a
[15:35] monk and you become celibate and you're you know having this kind of more like looking after
[15:40] yourself lifestyle I developed all these incredibly strong attachments with friends where I'd want
[15:45] them to be nice to me and I didn't want to be alone with myself I couldn't spend time alone with
[15:50] myself and then in the first two years of that retreat I'm hating myself and hating my pain and
[15:56] jumping over the wall and anything to kind of jump out of my own skin and when I
[16:01] learnt how to do this kind of practice with sending compassion into that part of myself that I'd
[16:08] hated so much it it was really transformative you said it felt like holding a scared rabbit or a
[16:15] bird with a broken wing how did you come to feel about that bird I felt I felt love for that part
[16:25] of myself and for me that's only possible when you stop getting so distracted by all the history
[16:34] and the the the the details of your past but you're just relating to the feeling in your body right
[16:40] now and I don't know if it's like this for everybody but for me feeling it in the body is a really
[16:46] easy way to start because yeah it's depression it's anxiety it's trauma whatever it is it's
[16:53] that's quite kind of nebulous how do you find it and for me it was so physical it was like this
[16:58] twisting of a knife in the heart was sinking feeling in the in the chest and just to relate to
[17:03] that sensation with kindness taught me how to love myself but in an accepting way you know not
[17:11] it's not about you know becoming an ego maniac like I love myself it's more have kindness for yourself
[17:19] how does this translate to things like grief because grief is one of the the hardest things to
[17:23] get to acceptance on the sort of finality of life losing someone you love you've been through
[17:28] this yourself you had a I think a best friend of yours he was well my teacher oh your teacher
[17:33] well he was my best friend as well as my teacher he he was murdered he was so 11 years ago my
[17:41] teacher Akron Rinpoche who had been my everything for all those years you know he was my teacher
[17:48] my closest friend he I also I spent a lot of time with him I became his kind of assistant so when
[17:54] he would travel I was with him all the time so we were very close he was Tibetan and he was in
[18:01] charge of our monastery in Scotland and part of his his work was he would run a charity called
[18:09] which has oh that's him he would go to Tibet every year and look after projects there feeding
[18:19] orphans looking after schools hospitals etc he was on his way to Tibet one year and he was in
[18:25] Chengdu in China and he was basically ambushed and stabbed killed and I mean this completely rocked
[18:34] the Buddhist world it's like you know horrendous news but on a personal level for me
[18:40] I was one of the first people who found out I'd been on the phone to him every day until then I
[18:45] was his assistant and very working very closely with him so it complete my it completely like
[18:52] blew me apart I mean it blew me two pieces I cannot describe how badly it blew me two pieces
[19:04] but the meditation I've described to you saw me through because I at some point during that
[19:17] grieving process I remembered what to do at first I didn't because you know when you're really in it
[19:23] in it you you can't think but then so there was the whole aftermath you know he was killed and it
[19:31] was in all the press and then as his assistant I was the one dealing with the media and in a way
[19:36] that same busy when you're grieving it kind of helps you to you know stay focused but then the
[19:42] nights the nights was night time was when it started to hurt because at night I would just be
[19:50] tossing and turning and feeling like feeling like I was on fire because I had a mixture of grief
[19:59] anger despair there was a whole mixture of things we knew the killer the person who murdered him
[20:07] had been a monk Tibetan he had been a monk in our monastery we knew him he actually had the same name
[20:12] as me and we knew him quite well so there was all of that mixed in with what an earth happened to
[20:20] this person that he did this thing and so all of that is consuming me at night and I'm just tossing
[20:25] and turning feeling like I'm in flames and then at some point it kicked in the meditation it just
[20:31] had it just happened because I'd done it and retreated it had seen me through it it really really
[20:36] helped me and at some point I just had to lie there and send love into the flames in me you know I
[20:44] had to send send that kindness into the place I was in despair I'm not saying that I then just
[20:52] became alright no but it absolutely calmed things absolutely and it is it is it is all about love
[21:01] it really is you are sending love into the pain you are experiencing and this helped me through
[21:09] the grief it helped me also with forgiveness with the guy we knew who did it it helped me on so many
[21:14] levels and I'm not saying that it you know it's it's all okay but I have I've made peace with his
[21:20] death and I mean he taught me this practice he taught me how to do that and then he died and I had
[21:31] to do it that I think of it is his last gift to me and I'm you know I'm I will be forever grateful
[21:43] when you talk about sending love into the flames what is the the actual practice there is it
[21:49] certain sentences you're saying no thinking yeah I'm glad you asked this because it is so much
[21:55] about going beyond the words and going into an experience of oneness so to make it really practical
[22:03] you know you're feeling you're feeling incredible trauma in your body for finding it physically is
[22:11] the easiest way to do it like your your bodies in flames or you've got like a feeling of a knife
[22:16] twisting in your heart whatever it is there's this feeling in the body and first of all you just
[22:21] focus on that feeling so anybody who who meditates knows how to focus on their breathing it's the
[22:28] same thing it's just where you're focusing so you're feeling the feeling and you're trying to bypass
[22:35] the thoughts of this is uncomfortable I want this to go away why did he die what happened you're
[22:40] just feeling the feeling and then you pay attention to that feeling in a loving way
[22:52] you you flood it with love and the reason this is possible I mean that this is touching upon
[23:00] a major a major belief in buddhist philosophy which is that our minds are naturally compassionate
[23:06] we are not these fight or flight killing machines that some people like to think the human being is
[23:16] we are our natural state is to be kind it is who we are naturally deep down so when you clear away
[23:24] all the the words and the the ideas and you just sit with the feeling and you send love into that
[23:30] feeling with your mind you're just loving that feeling holding it with compassion as if you were
[23:35] with a friend who was grieving you know if you if you were sitting with a friend who was freaking out
[23:40] or grieving or whatever you're not going to slap around the face and say snap out of it you will
[23:46] hold their hand and we all know how to do that questions can you do it for yourself
[23:54] and for me that was a huge challenge because I hated myself so much for so many years
[24:00] I was my worst enemy so to hold my own hand internally in that sense that's what I mean by sending
[24:07] love into the feeling and what happens then is the feeling starts to change it starts to melt the
[24:14] sharpness the sharp edge of his edges of it start to melt and you start to be okay with being not
[24:19] okay and it's almost as if a kind of happiness starts to arise but it's not like a it's a kind of
[24:29] happiness you haven't tasted before it's a happiness of I can be okay with this it makes you
[24:37] immensely strong you talked about forgiveness did you forgive the man that murdered your friend
[24:44] and teacher yes quite quickly I mean in a way it was made easier because it became really clear
[24:55] that he was psychotic and of course that's no excuse or condoning or anything like that but somebody
[25:01] who is really unable to control themselves I mean how can you hate them or whatever you know it's
[25:09] but that's an extreme case but there are the practice of forgiveness it's a hard one isn't it
[25:15] because we've all got people in our lives that we think we have wronged us or done something to us
[25:19] which has caused us pain and almost the way that we create our impassception of justice is by
[25:26] holding the grudge yeah now now why do we do that that's my that's the question is do we think
[25:35] do we think that if we let go of the grudge we have let the other person get away with it that's
[25:40] how it kind of feels right wouldn't you say that by holding the grudge they've got away with it
[25:45] because you're the one suffering they've really won they're winning in each moment because you're
[25:54] holding on to them in Buddhism there's a teaching that says it's like holding on to a piece of
[25:58] hot metal or holding a hot coal in your hand and it's just burning you so if I'm holding the grudge
[26:05] they have absolutely got away with it because they are the thing they did which was one thing maybe
[26:11] I am now constantly hurting and they're absolutely the winner so I wonder if we we assume I think we
[26:20] do assume that forgiveness is a kind of giving up even the word forgive the give in the word so it
[26:26] sounds like we're taking a weaker position we're giving up we're sort of surrendering but I think
[26:31] forgiveness is a strength or a power and it's actually nothing to do with the other person they might
[26:38] you're not going to necessarily write them a letter and say I've forgiven you but you're
[26:43] freeing yourself you're dropping your burden because that rage is toxic and that hurt is toxic
[26:52] it's so hard to let go of it and people can say let go and you just want to slap them in the face
[26:57] because what okay this is that easy I'm just going to let go you know it's not that easy it's
[27:02] bloody hard but meditation gives gives you the tools partly because meditation anyway is helping
[27:11] to loosen up that kind of glue that we have in our minds where we glued into those feelings it
[27:17] even just a simple meditation like coming back to the breath is helping you to be less glued into
[27:24] those thoughts and reactions and feelings so the feeling of rage can start to be less heavy for you
[27:30] you've been through several sort of traumatic incidents you talked about being 14 being 17 the
[27:36] sexual abuse parent parental divorce a little bit of neglect it sounds like as well have you
[27:40] forgiven all of those people in your life I don't know I don't know if forgiveness is a big
[27:49] huge massive moment or if it's a process I'm friends with all those people very close friends with
[27:56] all those people and I think here's what I think I think I've learned how to forgive the feelings
[28:08] that those incidents gave rise to that to me is much more important than forgiving the people
[28:16] and I think what's also happened to me is I've started to find that the suffering
[28:26] that I experience has some use because it is the thing that you're using for your mental
[28:34] transformation Rinpoche always used to say suffering is like compost
[28:40] compost is made of rotten vegetables people chuck it away or they know how to make the field grow
[28:46] and I think it's like that so with forgiveness I would say meditation but I would say also thinking
[28:56] thinking deeply about about the situation you know what's really helped me with with my dad and
[29:07] with other people is to think about the suffering they were going through that kind of like
[29:12] propelled them to behave the way they've behaved there's always something isn't there in somebody
[29:18] that has made them behave the way they behave and there's a part of us that gets very
[29:22] indignant and thinks how dare they they should know better whereas the Buddhist answer would be
[29:29] well what do you mean they should know better they know what they know they are they are driven
[29:34] by their own confusion and their own pain what why do you think they were out to get you
[29:39] why do you think they were deliberately out to maliciously get you weren't they just caught in
[29:44] their own suffering and you you were there but it's not so much about you and I think that starts
[29:52] to lighten the burden a bit when you start to think about you know there's a meditation I sometimes
[29:57] do where you you swap places with the other person in your mind you sit and you think about being
[30:02] them and looking at the world out of their eyes the person at you yeah so many people will be
[30:08] thinking about that person in their life as you speak and they'll be the challenge I guess they'll
[30:12] face as they'll continually come back to this idea that this person is an asshole yeah they that you
[30:18] know it almost we are too we all are I am we're all because we're all just confused we're all at
[30:24] the mercy of our own minds if you meditate regularly you realize how out of control you are
[30:33] you're trying to sit there with your breathing and all you're thinking about is shopping lists
[30:37] and you think wow the human mind is really pretty messed up we can't make it do anything we want
[30:43] it to do so this person that you think they're so evil and so terrible and how dare they do the
[30:49] thing they've done I'm not saying that we're condoning it and saying yeah you can do what you want
[30:54] we're just saying lighten up a bit because people are just doing their best and sometimes their
[31:00] best is really bad what you just listened to was a most replayed moment from a previous episode
[31:08] if you want to listen to that full episode I've linked it down below check the description thank you

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