# Entrepreneur: He's making it easier for people with Opioid Use Disorder to commit to their methadone treatment program.

An episode of [Money Making Conversations Master Class](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1264705641), 22 Aug 2024, 28 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/b1db7263-d1a3-4d00-8976-af62012aab44/9c57c051-6006-45c1-bf44-b1d3014fbb30/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=35a10561-3e1b-4d05-a529-af62012aab6a

Listen and subscribe to Money Making Conversations on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, www.moneymakingconversations.com/subscribe/ or wherever you listen to podcasts. New Money Making Conversations episodes drop daily. I want to alert you, so you don’t miss out on expert analysis and insider perspectives from my guests who provide tips that can help you uplift the community, improve your financial planning, motivation, or advice on how to be a successful entrepreneur. Keep winning! Two-time Emmy and three-time NAACP Image Award-winning, television Executive Producer Rushion McDonald, interviewed Dr. Michael Giles. A psychiatrist and healthcare entrepreneur who founded Sonara Health, a technology platform designed to improve treatment access and retention for people suffering from opioid use disorder (OUD). Drawing on his experience working in opioid treatment programs (OTPs), Dr. Giles developed a digital solution that allows patients receiving methadone treatment to demonstrate medication compliance remotely, reducing the burden of daily clinic visits. The discussion focuses on opioid addiction, methadone treatment, patient-provider trust, healthcare innovation, and how technology can improve outcomes for individuals struggling with substance use disorders. Purpose of the Interview The purpose of the interview was to: • Raise awareness about opioid use disorder. • Explain how methadone treatment works. • Discuss barriers faced by patients receiving opioid treatment. • Introduce Sonara Health's digital monitoring platform. • Showcase healthcare innovation that improves patient outcomes. • Highlight entrepreneurship that creates social impact. • Explore how technology can increase treatment retention and recovery opportunities. Key Takeaways 1. Opioid Addiction Continues to Devastate Communities Dr. Giles emphasized that opioid use disorder remains a major public health crisis affecting: • Individuals • Families • Communities • Healthcare systems The consequences extend beyond addiction itself and often include: • Overdose deaths • Family disruption • Economic hardship • Community instability Key Point: Opioid addiction remains one of the most significant public health challenges in America. 2. Methadone Is an Effective Treatment Methadone is commonly used to help individuals manage opioid dependence. The medication helps: • Reduce withdrawal symptoms • Stabilize patients • Lower relapse rates • Decrease overdose risk However, treatment often requires strict supervision. Key Point: Methadone can be life-saving when appropriately administered. 3. Traditional Methadone Programs Can Be Burdensome A major challenge discussed during the interview is the requirement that many patients visit clinics daily. This creates difficulties for people who: • Work full-time • Attend school • Raise children • Lack transportation • Live far from treatment centers Daily clinic visits can become obstacles to maintaining normal life responsibilities. Key Point: Recovery should fit into a person's life rather than make rebuilding life more difficult. 4. Sonara Health Was Born From a Practical Problem The idea for Sonara Health emerged during Dr. Giles' psychiatry residency. While working in an opioid treatment program, he noticed that physicians often hesitated to provide take-home methadone doses because they lacked confidence that medications would be used correctly. This revealed a core issue: Lack of Patient-Provider Trust Dr. Giles realized technology could help bridge that gap. 5. Technology Can Strengthen Trust Sonara Health's platform allows patients to verify medication use remotely. The process includes: • Accessing the application. • Scanning a medication-specific QR code. • Recording themselves taking the medication. • Securely transmitting the information to their treatment team. This provides accountability while reducing unnecessary clinic visits. Key Point: Better information creates greater…

## Transcript

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[1:29] Speaker 1: a guest on my show, please visit MoneyMakingConversations.com. That's MoneyMakingConversations.com
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[1:46] Speaker 1: be a guest on my show. Now, let's get this
[1:48] Speaker 1: show rolling. It's a different show because we're talking about
[1:52] Speaker 1: The world of people who are impacted by what's going
[1:55] Speaker 1: on and sometimes can't control their own narrative. There are organizations,
[1:58] Speaker 1: there are businesses out there that are helping people right
[2:01] Speaker 1: to ship. My guest on the show today makes it
[2:04] Speaker 1: easier for people with opioid use disorder, that's OUD, to
[2:09] Speaker 1: commit to their methadone treatment program. He has witnessed the
[2:12] Speaker 1: devastating impact of opioid use disorder on individuals, families, and
[2:17] Speaker 1: their communities. Please welcome to Money Making Conversations Masterclass, Dr.
[2:21] Speaker 1: Michael Giles. How you doing, sir?
[2:24] Speaker 3: I'm doing well. Thanks for having me, Rashawn. I know.
[2:26] Speaker 1: Prior to the interview, I called Michael because of the
[2:30] Speaker 1: serious nature. And I don't want people to turn off
[2:32] Speaker 1: because it's serious or it's dark. No, this is life.
[2:34] Speaker 1: This is about people who are trying to get on
[2:38] Speaker 1: with their lives that have been impacted by a drug
[2:40] Speaker 1: that's been devastating this country for a number of years now.
[2:44] Speaker 1: You've seen a lot of news stories out there where
[2:47] Speaker 1: larger companies have been sued and judgments have been won
[2:50] Speaker 1: against them and communities, not just individuals, but communities and
[2:54] Speaker 1: have been destroyed by this drug, opioid drug. Well, people
[2:59] Speaker 1: want to get on with their life. And sometimes this
[3:01] Speaker 1: drug won't allow all the treatment technique that's being offered
[3:05] Speaker 1: to them won't allow them to get on with their lives.
[3:08] Speaker 1: So I invited Michael on the show to talk about it.
[3:11] Speaker 1: Give us a little background about you before we get
[3:13] Speaker 1: started there, Michael.
[3:15] Speaker 3: Sure. So I'm a psychiatrist and I started a company
[3:19] Speaker 3: called Sonara Health. Mm hmm. during the last year of
[3:22] Speaker 3: my psychiatry training, based on my experience working in an
[3:27] Speaker 3: opioid treatment program, which is the only facility in the
[3:30] Speaker 3: United States where you can receive methadone. So there's about
[3:33] Speaker 3: 2,000 of these OTPs across the United States, and the
[3:38] Speaker 3: standard of care is for patients to drive to this
[3:40] Speaker 3: clinic every day for an initial period of time, wait
[3:45] Speaker 3: in line, and then take a dose of the medication
[3:47] Speaker 3: methadone in front of a care provider. Right. And this
[3:52] Speaker 3: requirement for daily visits is really strenuous for patients who
[3:56] Speaker 3: have jobs or are in education or have kids to
[4:01] Speaker 3: take care of. And, you know, I would, you know,
[4:05] Speaker 3: when I was on this rotation, I would advocate to
[4:06] Speaker 3: these patients to get take-home methadone so they wouldn't have
[4:09] Speaker 3: to come in every day. And the provider often didn't
[4:11] Speaker 3: trust the patient. It seemed like if someone built a
[4:15] Speaker 3: tool that gave patients the opportunity to demonstrate how they're
[4:19] Speaker 3: using the medication at home that these patients could then
[4:22] Speaker 3: get take-home methadone instead of having to come into the
[4:25] Speaker 3: clinic every day. And so that's exactly what our application
[4:29] Speaker 3: was designed to do. We launched at the end.
[4:33] Speaker 1: Before we get too far into the whole process, because
[4:36] Speaker 1: there are steps to that. Like you always say, the
[4:38] Speaker 1: doctor didn't trust the patient. Now, we've got to talk
[4:40] Speaker 1: about the idea of you creating this concept and then
[4:44] Speaker 1: implementing the concept, I guess, a beta period, and then
[4:49] Speaker 1: being able to implement it for doctors to trust you.
[4:51] Speaker 1: So when did you first implement the concept as being
[4:54] Speaker 1: a possibility? Because like you said, you've seen this drug
[4:57] Speaker 1: devastate the community. You've seen this drug and the way
[5:01] Speaker 1: it was being, the methadone was being applied. They had
[5:03] Speaker 1: to come up here every day, like you said, disrupt
[5:05] Speaker 1: their life. When did this idea pop in your head?
[5:09] Speaker 3: It happened during my residency. I was training. I was
[5:14] Speaker 3: just talking to the attending physicians, like the boss doctor,
[5:17] Speaker 3: and I was asking them, like, you know, what would
[5:19] Speaker 3: it take for these patients to, like, get some take-home methadone? And,
[5:24] Speaker 3: you know, the attending physician, the response would be, if
[5:28] Speaker 3: I understood how they were using the medication, I'd be
[5:30] Speaker 3: more comfortable giving them, you know, multiple doses so they
[5:33] Speaker 3: don't have to come in every day. Mm-hmm. kind of
[5:36] Speaker 3: the business concept was designed to solve a specific problem. Right.
[5:41] Speaker 3: And it's a problem of patient provider trust. That's really
[5:44] Speaker 3: what our product does.
[5:46] Speaker 1: So when you talk about this, you know, because it's
[5:48] Speaker 1: all about trust, because like I said, the doctors see
[5:51] Speaker 1: there is a remedy, but they have no solution. And
[5:56] Speaker 1: so when you started sitting down, did you sit down
[5:59] Speaker 1: with family members, sit down with some friends, sit down
[6:01] Speaker 1: with investors to start building this concept out? And because
[6:06] Speaker 1: everything is a great concept, but it also has to be,
[6:09] Speaker 1: as they say, profitable. One has to be able to
[6:11] Speaker 1: make money for it to continue. So break down the
[6:14] Speaker 1: whole process of, you know, when you started, okay, this
[6:17] Speaker 1: is reality. You know, this can actually happen. Did you
[6:21] Speaker 1: go to someone in the medical field for advice? What
[6:24] Speaker 1: did you do?
[6:26] Speaker 3: It's interesting. It was a lot of networking. Right. Yeah.
[6:30] Speaker 3: The question you're asking is really important. Like, how do
[6:33] Speaker 3: I know? that this is a problem that like is
[6:37] Speaker 3: worth solving. Like, are there people who actually use the product?
[6:41] Speaker 3: And so I actually reached out to the private equity
[6:45] Speaker 3: group that owned, um, one of the largest OTPs in
[6:49] Speaker 3: the United States. And I, I just kind of shared
[6:54] Speaker 3: my presentation on like what my vision for our product
[6:57] Speaker 3: would be. And this private equity group was actually like
[7:00] Speaker 3: really interested. And so they introduced me to the CEO,
[7:03] Speaker 3: of one of these large opioid treatment program companies. And,
[7:07] Speaker 3: you know, I think the weight of that introduction coming
[7:09] Speaker 3: from the private equity group, let them take what I
[7:12] Speaker 3: was saying more seriously. And the fact that I was
[7:15] Speaker 3: maybe positioned also helped add some credibility. And so, yeah,
[7:19] Speaker 3: when I shared kind of the concept with the executive
[7:23] Speaker 3: leadership at this opioid treatment program, they were hesitant, but
[7:27] Speaker 3: overall like pretty supportive. And they said, yeah, we would
[7:30] Speaker 3: love to test something like this out. So, yeah.
[7:34] Speaker 1: So, as we all know, the word in the test
[7:37] Speaker 1: period is called the beta period. When you, you know,
[7:39] Speaker 1: you go out there, you're making sure there are no
[7:41] Speaker 1: bugs in the process and there are no bad apples
[7:45] Speaker 1: in the process. Now, when you started choosing, you know,
[7:50] Speaker 1: potential patients for this process, and explain everybody the process
[7:56] Speaker 1: right now.
[7:58] Speaker 3: Oh, so... Before we launched the full product, we did
[8:03] Speaker 3: have kind of like a test version. And we got
[8:06] Speaker 3: funding from the National Institute of Health to pilot our
[8:11] Speaker 3: test version. And one of the pilot sites, like the
[8:15] Speaker 3: very first site, was in the Tenderloin District of San Francisco.
[8:19] Speaker 2: Okay.
[8:21] Speaker 3: And that's kind of like ground zero. Like, if you
[8:23] Speaker 3: really want to find out if your application works, go, like,
[8:27] Speaker 3: you know, to help opioid use disorder, test it out there. Wow.
[8:31] Speaker 1: Why do you say that? I'm just asking. Is it
[8:34] Speaker 1: because of opioid or because it's Silicon Valley with apps
[8:37] Speaker 1: and everything's out there and technology is at such a
[8:40] Speaker 1: high level?
[8:41] Speaker 3: Yeah, because the first thing, the burden of, like, opioid
[8:45] Speaker 3: use disorder is very high, specifically, like, in San Francisco area.
[8:50] Speaker 3: but even more so like in the Tenderloin district, um,
[8:55] Speaker 3: you know, like walking to the clinic from the subway,
[8:58] Speaker 3: you will see people using drugs outside the clinic. You
[9:01] Speaker 3: will see people who are in a state of overdose.
[9:05] Speaker 3: It's like, it's pretty terrifying. And I was like, man,
[9:08] Speaker 3: why are we launching here? This is like, like if
[9:11] Speaker 3: this was like, these patients seem so unstable, like how
[9:14] Speaker 3: are they going to use this application? And I learned
[9:17] Speaker 3: something then because these patients shattered my expectations. All they
[9:22] Speaker 3: needed was just a little bit of something to prove themselves.
[9:24] Speaker 3: And so that's the story.
[9:27] Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you this, Dr. Giles, because I'm
[9:29] Speaker 1: going to tell you something. From a stereotype, San Francisco
[9:34] Speaker 1: wouldn't be the place I would think you would find
[9:36] Speaker 1: in high concentration because I'm thinking high concentration San Francisco
[9:39] Speaker 1: or Liberal, very highly educated community. These are the things
[9:44] Speaker 1: that run through my mind. I'm thinking maybe West Virginia.
[9:47] Speaker 1: I'm thinking maybe Kentucky. I'm thinking rural areas will probably
[9:52] Speaker 1: be high volume usage area. And you telling me, no, Rashaun,
[9:55] Speaker 1: San Francisco. Why do I have this stereotype about people
[10:00] Speaker 1: who use opioids in my head?
[10:03] Speaker 3: Well, the areas you mentioned are kind of where the
[10:08] Speaker 3: epidemic started. So I don't know, maybe there's like a
[10:11] Speaker 3: founder's effect there, but it's spread all across the United
[10:17] Speaker 3: States and, And it's, you know, it is terrible in
[10:20] Speaker 3: the locations you mentioned, but it's also terrible in other
[10:23] Speaker 3: locations people may not always think of. And so, you know,
[10:27] Speaker 3: you have San Francisco, certain parts of it, and it's
[10:31] Speaker 3: growing in San Francisco. And you have, like, Seattle. So, yeah,
[10:39] Speaker 3: it's growing quicker than it's, like, being improved.
[10:42] Speaker 1: You know, it's really interesting. You know, when I was
[10:44] Speaker 1: in high school, I was– I did a study on
[10:48] Speaker 1: drug addicted babies, babies who moms were addicted to drugs
[10:53] Speaker 1: and they came out, they were addicted to drugs. So
[10:57] Speaker 1: that is, you know, that was one of the most
[10:59] Speaker 1: emotional moments in my young life to see that I'm helpless.
[11:03] Speaker 1: I can't do anything about this, you know, you know,
[11:06] Speaker 1: because the problem started before the child was even born.
[11:09] Speaker 1: And so and then you look at this side of
[11:11] Speaker 1: the table. Can you tell me what exactly is opioids?
[11:18] Speaker 3: Yeah, so an opioid is, you know, it's a class
[11:22] Speaker 3: of chemicals naturally occurring in a flower called like the
[11:27] Speaker 3: opium poppy. And it's been used for hundreds of years
[11:31] Speaker 3: for pain control. But it also is like very addictive.
[11:36] Speaker 3: And like the modern forms of kind of the opioid
[11:40] Speaker 3: compound have been refined to the point where they bind
[11:45] Speaker 3: to the like, like pain control and like pleasure receptor
[11:49] Speaker 3: of the brain very, very like strongly. And so, um,
[11:55] Speaker 3: when patients stop taking the opioids, which, you know, now
[11:59] Speaker 3: are often required illicitly and have like fentanyl and super
[12:04] Speaker 3: dangerous things to get, when they stop taking it, they
[12:06] Speaker 3: go into withdrawal and to have a pain, very painful, uh,
[12:10] Speaker 3: flu like illness, but way worse than the flu, you know,
[12:12] Speaker 3: that lasts days usually. Um, And so, yeah, that compels
[12:17] Speaker 3: them to keep using the opioids because they don't want
[12:20] Speaker 3: to go through that experience. And then, you know, as
[12:23] Speaker 3: our brain gets used to the opioid, they'll require higher
[12:26] Speaker 3: and higher doses. And eventually they'll require such a high
[12:30] Speaker 3: dose that they'll overdose, potentially fatal overdose.
[12:34] Speaker 1: Well, you mentioned the drug in there, fentanyl, because I've
[12:38] Speaker 1: heard that drug tied to opioid. Please explain to my
[12:43] Speaker 1: audience and to me. Why does the word fentanyl pop
[12:46] Speaker 1: up a lot when you hear opioid use?
[12:50] Speaker 3: Fentanyl is driving, by and large, the vast majority of
[12:54] Speaker 3: deaths related to drug use currently in the United States.
[13:00] Speaker 3: Old-fashioned opioids like heroin are actually pretty rare now. Fentanyl
[13:05] Speaker 3: is very easy to produce in home laboratories and And
[13:12] Speaker 3: you only need like a few grains of sand of it,
[13:16] Speaker 3: like in the thing you're selling in order to, you know,
[13:20] Speaker 3: satisfy the person who's trying to buy these opioids. And
[13:25] Speaker 3: if you take one or two extra grains of sand
[13:27] Speaker 3: of fentanyl, you could potentially die.
[13:30] Speaker 1: Is that toxic?
[13:33] Speaker 3: Is that toxic? Yes. It's like the dose is micrograms
[13:36] Speaker 3: versus like milligrams for like something like morphine. Yeah.
[13:42] Speaker 1: Thousands of times. First of all, you're doing a great cause.
[13:46] Speaker 1: But also, as an entrepreneur, this is a show about entrepreneurship.
[13:51] Speaker 1: This is a show about being able to take an
[13:54] Speaker 1: idea and turn it into a concept and then validate
[13:57] Speaker 1: that by turning it into a business model. Now, with
[14:01] Speaker 1: that being a business model, because we want to continue
[14:03] Speaker 1: to talk about this because I want to talk about
[14:04] Speaker 1: the use and You know, the care and all that process.
[14:08] Speaker 1: But it just always amazes me when individuals and I
[14:11] Speaker 1: have to use the word visionary when I talk to you,
[14:13] Speaker 1: because I wouldn't have thought about this. That's why I
[14:15] Speaker 1: mentioned to you about my association with drug addicted babies
[14:20] Speaker 1: when I was a senior in high school. So I've
[14:21] Speaker 1: always had this this this emotional connection. caring side of me,
[14:28] Speaker 1: how can we stop this? How can we fix this? Now,
[14:30] Speaker 1: I know my situation is different than yours because yours
[14:32] Speaker 1: is about, you know, opioid use disorder care, methadone. They
[14:37] Speaker 1: have a drug out there that can assist them in
[14:40] Speaker 1: living a normal life. It's about how they are receiving it.
[14:44] Speaker 1: And you're stopping that point of having to come into
[14:47] Speaker 1: an office. And I'm sure the doctors like that because
[14:51] Speaker 1: that doesn't slow them down. The nurses like that doesn't
[14:53] Speaker 1: slow them down as.
[14:54] Speaker 3: Well, correct?
[14:54] Speaker 4: Absolutely.
[14:56] Speaker 3: Right. Yeah. So there's reduced clinic foot traffic when there's
[15:01] Speaker 3: a lot of patients on Sonara. And then you have
[15:04] Speaker 3: improved patient retention. And so like from a revenue perspective
[15:08] Speaker 3: for our customers, the longer a patient is in treatment,
[15:11] Speaker 3: the more revenue the customer makes. So by reducing dropout,
[15:15] Speaker 3: we kind of help customers keep their revenue up.
[15:18] Speaker 1: Cool. I just want to go to break right quick. Dr. Giles,
[15:22] Speaker 1: if anyone wants to call in, because I know the
[15:25] Speaker 1: nature of this may have some questions, may have some
[15:27] Speaker 1: family members that you may want to understand how they
[15:30] Speaker 1: can gain use of this. We're going to find out
[15:32] Speaker 1: exactly the different locations that this is available, how it
[15:35] Speaker 1: can be available as a virtual process. So and that
[15:39] Speaker 1: has to be understood as well. But we return more
[15:41] Speaker 1: with Money Making Conversations Masterclass. with Dr. Michael Giles and
[15:45] Speaker 1: his process of being able to help people with opioid
[15:49] Speaker 1: use disorder.
[15:51] Speaker 4: Please don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with more
[15:54] Speaker 4: Money Making Conversations Masterclass. Welcome back to the Money Making
[16:05] Speaker 4: Conversations Masterclass hosted by Rashawn McDonald. Money Making Conversations Masterclass
[16:11] Speaker 4: continues online at MoneyMakingConversations.com and follow Money Making Conversations Masterclass
[16:17] Speaker 4: on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.
[16:20] Speaker 1: My guest is Dr. Michael Giles. He's invented, created a
[16:26] Speaker 1: methadone treatment program that's virtual, which allows individuals who are
[16:30] Speaker 1: going through these programs not having to go into a
[16:32] Speaker 1: doctor's office, but It's an honor system. When they take
[16:35] Speaker 1: the drug, they videotape themselves, and it gets logged in.
[16:39] Speaker 1: Am I shorthanding it correctly there, Dr. Giles?
[16:44] Speaker 3: Yeah, well, without Sonara, it's an honor system. So without Sonara,
[16:49] Speaker 3: you get take-homes, and the provider doesn't really know if
[16:51] Speaker 3: you're taking them or not.
[16:53] Speaker 2: Right.
[16:54] Speaker 3: But with Sonara, you know for sure whether the patient's
[16:57] Speaker 3: taking their medication.
[16:59] Speaker 4: Cool.
[16:59] Speaker 1: Now, how does Sonara, that's the name of the clinic.
[17:02] Speaker 1: Did I say clinic? Sonara Health Clinic?
[17:06] Speaker 3: Our application.
[17:07] Speaker 1: Okay, Sonara Health Clinic. How do they ensure the security
[17:10] Speaker 1: and privacy of patient data and what measures are in
[17:13] Speaker 1: place to comply with these regulatory requirements? Because that's the
[17:16] Speaker 1: number one fear I would have.
[17:17] Speaker 4: Yes.
[17:19] Speaker 1: I always read about somebody holding somebody ransom or breaking into.
[17:23] Speaker 1: How are you protecting a patient's data?
[17:26] Speaker 3: Yes, so we have a healthcare contract with Google's healthcare platform. So,
[17:32] Speaker 3: you know, in order for that platform to be legal,
[17:35] Speaker 3: like Google can't access that data. I can't access that data.
[17:40] Speaker 3: Only the treatment team, like technical support team at Sonara
[17:45] Speaker 3: and the patient have access to that data. And that
[17:47] Speaker 3: data is never used for ads or any other commercial purposes.
[17:51] Speaker 3: It's exclusively for treatment planning.
[17:55] Speaker 1: That's important to know that your information is suddenly not
[17:58] Speaker 1: appearing on some mailing list and they send you concert
[18:01] Speaker 1: tickets and pizza coupons and things like that. This stuff
[18:05] Speaker 1: is locked in. It is used strictly for their patient
[18:08] Speaker 1: care and not distributed. Like you said, Google doesn't gain access.
[18:12] Speaker 1: You don't gain any personal access to this. No one
[18:14] Speaker 1: gains access to this. This is strictly for the health
[18:17] Speaker 1: care patient, the patient's knowledge and their format, correct?
[18:21] Speaker 3: Exactly. The patient and the provider.
[18:23] Speaker 1: You know, we talked about this a little earlier. You said,
[18:25] Speaker 1: you know, basically the doctors feel very comfortable and happy
[18:29] Speaker 1: about this process in our health system. And then the patients,
[18:33] Speaker 1: they're the key. How do you recruit your patients? How
[18:37] Speaker 1: do they find out about your health system? And how
[18:41] Speaker 1: do they respond to it?
[18:44] Speaker 3: Oh, man, the patients respond so well because, you know,
[18:48] Speaker 3: the typical patient story is, you know, I've been going
[18:52] Speaker 3: to the clinic for months to years and I only
[18:55] Speaker 3: have two or three take-home doses a week. And then
[18:57] Speaker 3: all of a sudden I get put on Sonara and
[18:59] Speaker 3: I have, you know, six or 13 take-home doses. And
[19:04] Speaker 3: so like, you know, as a patient, I can now
[19:06] Speaker 3: look for an apartment or get a job. It's pretty life-changing.
[19:10] Speaker 3: And in places like, you know, Alaska where the patient
[19:14] Speaker 3: is driving two hours one way to the clinic and
[19:17] Speaker 3: I mean, it's literally like the most kind of freedom
[19:21] Speaker 3: enhancing moment that these patients have had in a long time.
[19:25] Speaker 3: So patients love it. And in terms of like how
[19:27] Speaker 3: we choose which patients get put on it. So when
[19:31] Speaker 3: we're implementing at a clinic, we work with the clinical
[19:35] Speaker 3: team there to kind of draft new clinical criteria for
[19:40] Speaker 3: who should be given Sonara and you know, how quickly
[19:45] Speaker 3: they should be getting take-homes. And on average, you know,
[19:49] Speaker 3: patients on Sonara with the schedules that we created at
[19:51] Speaker 3: these clinics have twice the number of take-homes compared to
[19:55] Speaker 3: a patient who's been on Sonara, or sorry, who hasn't
[19:58] Speaker 3: been on Sonara.
[20:01] Speaker 1: Sonara, the name. How did you come up with the
[20:04] Speaker 1: name and why tied to this particular process? Sonara.
[20:07] Speaker 3: I mean, we were... brainstorming names and someone in our company,
[20:15] Speaker 3: you know, who speaks Spanish said the word to dream,
[20:19] Speaker 3: like the future tense to dream is the word Sonata.
[20:23] Speaker 3: And I thought that was a really cool name. So,
[20:26] Speaker 3: you know, we want patients to dream of like a
[20:28] Speaker 3: future where they have freedom. So it just seemed very fitting.
[20:32] Speaker 1: It's powerful. It's not only fitting, but it's powerful because,
[20:35] Speaker 1: you know, because this is the educational part to me.
[20:38] Speaker 1: Because you're going through life and somehow opioid falls into
[20:44] Speaker 1: your life and you call it opioid use disorder, OUD.
[20:49] Speaker 1: You commit to a methadone treatment program. Do you ever
[20:53] Speaker 1: get off the program, Dr.
[20:54] Speaker 3: Giles? Yeah, that's what the patient's goals are. So I
[21:01] Speaker 3: wish we were at a point where that was like
[21:03] Speaker 3: the focus. But right now, like most patients drop out
[21:07] Speaker 3: of treatment within the first 60 days. And, you know,
[21:12] Speaker 3: as soon as that happens, the risk of like having
[21:14] Speaker 3: a fatal overdose increases by nearly 300%. And so, you know,
[21:20] Speaker 3: the minimum amount of treatment time for the American Society
[21:23] Speaker 3: of Addiction Medicine is one year. So when we can
[21:26] Speaker 3: start getting most patients to one year, I really want
[21:30] Speaker 3: to start thinking about answering the question you mentioned, like
[21:32] Speaker 3: how do we taper patients off and, you know, eventually
[21:37] Speaker 3: they don't need anything. But until we can solve this
[21:40] Speaker 3: kind of crisis in the first 60 days, we just
[21:44] Speaker 3: don't have the bandwidth to solve that other thing right now.
[21:48] Speaker 1: Wow. Because, you know, it's like... How do you get
[21:52] Speaker 1: your life back if it's still tied to a treatment program?
[21:56] Speaker 1: How do you gain confidence? How do you have a relationship?
[21:58] Speaker 1: How do you do anything? How do you move on
[22:02] Speaker 1: with this treatment program? It seems like it's forever going on. Now,
[22:07] Speaker 1: it's always tied to anything. Just because there's a program
[22:09] Speaker 1: out there, you have to have eligibility criteria tied to it. So, Nara,
[22:13] Speaker 1: what are the eligibility criteria? And also, again, this is
[22:16] Speaker 1: a virtual process, and before you talk about eligibility criteria,
[22:20] Speaker 1: Tell them again how it works, Dr.
[22:21] Speaker 3: Giles. Yeah, so the way the application works is patients
[22:27] Speaker 3: will get their take-home methadone. It'll have a special label
[22:31] Speaker 3: on the bottle. And, you know, there's one dose per bottle,
[22:35] Speaker 3: and you just use one bottle per day. And so
[22:38] Speaker 3: you're at home with all these bottles, and, you know,
[22:40] Speaker 3: you log into Synar.app, and you press the Take My
[22:43] Speaker 3: Dose button. And so then it'll ask you to scan
[22:46] Speaker 3: the QR code on the methadone bottle. Um, so yeah,
[22:50] Speaker 3: you'll scan it and then it'll, you know, we'll confirm
[22:53] Speaker 3: that that bottle has never been scanned or used before.
[22:55] Speaker 3: And then it'll flip to the front facing camera and,
[22:59] Speaker 3: you know, we give the patient cell phone stands. And
[23:02] Speaker 3: so the patient will put the cell phone on the
[23:05] Speaker 3: cell phone stand and they'll open the bottle and take
[23:07] Speaker 3: the medication. Um, and so, you know, that whole process
[23:10] Speaker 3: takes about 72 seconds on average across the hundreds of
[23:14] Speaker 3: thousands of doses we've recorded.
[23:16] Speaker 4: Okay.
[23:16] Speaker 3: You compare that 72 seconds to hours of your day
[23:20] Speaker 3: if you're not using Sonara when you're having to go
[23:23] Speaker 3: to the clinic.
[23:23] Speaker 1: That's the process. So how does one, as a patient,
[23:27] Speaker 1: qualify or what is the criteria to qualify for the
[23:32] Speaker 1: use of this type of Sonara health solution?
[23:37] Speaker 3: Now, that is a much more complicated question, unfortunately. So, like...
[23:42] Speaker 3: Methadone is probably the most regulated medication in the United States.
[23:47] Speaker 3: And every state has their own rules for how methadone
[23:51] Speaker 3: can be prescribed. So it really will vary from state
[23:56] Speaker 3: to state. And then on top of that, every clinic
[23:59] Speaker 3: has their own culture. And, you know, our job at
[24:02] Speaker 3: SNAR is to try to make clinics have the most
[24:04] Speaker 3: kind of patient-centered culture possible. But the best answer to
[24:09] Speaker 3: that question is really going to depend on where the
[24:11] Speaker 3: patients live. But you have some common factors, though, like
[24:15] Speaker 3: you're on a stable dose of methadone, so you're not
[24:18] Speaker 3: needing to go up and down all the time in
[24:20] Speaker 3: your dose. Wow. You know, attendance hasn't been too much
[24:25] Speaker 3: of an issue. Conversely, right, if attendance is an issue,
[24:28] Speaker 3: maybe you need Sonara.
[24:30] Speaker 1: Right.
[24:30] Speaker 3: So it really depends on kind of the clinics.
[24:34] Speaker 1: Well, you know, the thing about you're based in Houston, Texas, correct?
[24:38] Speaker 3: Dallas.
[24:38] Speaker 1: Dallas, Texas. You're based in Dallas, Texas. I apologize. Sonara
[24:41] Speaker 1: Health Solutions. And now, what's the future? You know, you
[24:45] Speaker 1: got it rolling. We know this is a business. Your
[24:49] Speaker 1: entrepreneurship has kicked in, but it's also helping people get
[24:54] Speaker 1: their lives back. What is in product development or outreach program?
[24:59] Speaker 1: What do you have? What's the next step for Sonara
[25:01] Speaker 1: Health Solutions?
[25:03] Speaker 3: Yeah, so... Right now, our application is really centered on
[25:07] Speaker 3: kind of this virtual dosing window experience, you know, recreating
[25:11] Speaker 3: the in-person dosing, but like more conveniently from your cell
[25:15] Speaker 3: phone at your home. We want to expand that to
[25:18] Speaker 3: be more broadly just patient engagement, specifically to kind of
[25:23] Speaker 3: answer one of the questions you asked earlier, like how
[25:25] Speaker 3: does the patient come off the system, right? So we
[25:28] Speaker 3: don't want the patient's tech to record every day if
[25:30] Speaker 3: they're clinically stable. It's intrusive and not nice, right? And
[25:34] Speaker 3: so we'll just have kind of more generally useful patient
[25:38] Speaker 3: engagement tools like messaging, counseling sessions, virtual intakes, things like that.
[25:45] Speaker 3: So that's kind of the future of our product.
[25:48] Speaker 1: Well, you know something, Dr. Giles, I'm proud of you,
[25:50] Speaker 1: my man. You know, I say that because not many people,
[25:57] Speaker 1: you know, there are people out there making money off
[25:59] Speaker 1: of cars and making money off of, hamburgers and businesses
[26:04] Speaker 1: set up. And these are fantastic. There are not many
[26:07] Speaker 1: businesses that are set up to save people's lives and
[26:10] Speaker 1: change communities. And that's what you're doing. You know, if
[26:14] Speaker 1: nobody's saying that to you, let me say that to
[26:16] Speaker 1: you because of the fact that I was in the
[26:19] Speaker 1: hospital for 30 days one time in my life and
[26:22] Speaker 1: they had a drug attached to me because I was
[26:24] Speaker 1: in so much pain. I would press a button. And
[26:28] Speaker 1: now after a while, the drug will stop entering my system,
[26:30] Speaker 1: but I kept pressing that button. because they knew if
[26:33] Speaker 1: I just kept pressing that button, I would become addicted
[26:35] Speaker 1: to that drug. So eventually I had to learn to
[26:37] Speaker 1: live with the pain, and eventually I got off of it.
[26:40] Speaker 1: They weaned me off of that machine. So I know
[26:43] Speaker 1: what addiction can feel like. I know the impact of
[26:47] Speaker 1: that machine not being managed correctly, how it could have
[26:51] Speaker 1: impacted my life today. But I brought you on this show.
[26:55] Speaker 1: You're a different type of entrepreneur I brought on this show,
[26:58] Speaker 1: but I thought it was necessary for people to hear
[27:00] Speaker 1: that there are many ways people out there being entrepreneurs,
[27:04] Speaker 1: changing people's lives, and being a positive force in the community.
[27:08] Speaker 1: And that's what you are, my brother. And I always
[27:10] Speaker 1: know I'm a fan. And as I always say in
[27:13] Speaker 1: my show, I close it out with the word keep winning.
[27:15] Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you, my friend, keep winning. As
[27:18] Speaker 1: we close, is there any contact information you want to
[27:20] Speaker 1: share with my audience?
[27:23] Speaker 3: Yeah. If anyone's interested in Sinoff, feel free to email phil.com.
[27:30] Speaker 3: P-H-I-L at sonarhealth.com and we will reach it back out
[27:35] Speaker 3: to you. Cool.
[27:36] Speaker 1: Thank you, my friend, for taking the time to come
[27:37] Speaker 1: on Money Making Conversations Masterclass. Stay safe, okay?
[27:41] Speaker 3: You too. Thank you, Rashawn.
[27:43] Speaker 1: This has been another edition of Money Making Conversations Masterclass
[27:47] Speaker 1: hosted by me, Rashawn McDonald. Thank you to our guests
[27:50] Speaker 1: on the show today and thank you, our listening audience. Now,
[27:53] Speaker 1: if you want to listen to any episode or want
[27:55] Speaker 1: to be a guest on the show, visit moneymakingconversations.com. Our
[27:59] Speaker 1: social media handle is Money Making Conversation. Join us next
[28:03] Speaker 1: week and remember to always lead with your gifts. Keep winning.

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