# E102: “Pops: Learning to Be a Son and a Father” a discussion of fatherhood with The Today Show co-host Craig Melvin. vin.

An episode of [Money Making Conversations Master Class](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1264705641), 14 Jun 2024, 35 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/b1db7263-d1a3-4d00-8976-af62012aab44/167198aa-8b6d-4497-b327-af62013e1a66/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=35a10561-3e1b-4d05-a529-af62012aab6a

Listen and subscribe to Money Making Conversations on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, www.moneymakingconversations.com/subscribe/ or wherever you listen to podcasts. New Money Making Conversations episodes drop daily. I want to alert you, so you don’t miss out on expert analysis and insider perspectives from my guests who provide tips that can help you uplift the community, improve your financial planning, motivation, or advice on how to be a successful entrepreneur. Keep winning! Two-time Emmy and Three-time NAACP Image Award-winning, television Executive Producer Rushion McDonald interviewed Craig Melvin. Co-host of “The Today Show” and Author of “Pops: Learning to Be a Son and a Father.” He is on the show to discuss his new book “Pops: Learning to Be a Son and a Father.” It is the story of all the father figures in Craig’s life—including inspiring men Craig has met during his "Dads Got This Series" on NBC News’ TODAY. These experiences and encounters have shaped Craig's understanding of his role as a dad of two young children. https://www.moneymakingconversations.com https://www.youtube.com/MoneyMakingConversations https://www.facebook.com/MoneyMakingConversations/ https://twitter.com/moneymakingconv https://www.instagram.com/moneymakingconversations/ Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com Money Making Conversations Master Class with Rushion McDonald is America's premier entrepreneurship, business leadership, financial literacy, and wealth-building podcast featuring successful entrepreneurs, executives, founders, celebrities, and industry experts sharing actionable insights for professional and financial success. Business Podcast Entrepreneurship Small Business Business Growth Financial Literacy Wealth Building Black Entrepreneurs Minority Business Leadership Executive Leadership Business Funding Marketing Strategies Personal Development Startup Advice Sales Training CEO Interviews Founder Stories Professional Development Economic Empowerment Business Success Networking Brand Building Innovation How to start a business Small business funding Entrepreneur success stories Business leadership podcast Wealth building strategies Black entrepreneur podcast Minority business development Marketing for small businesses Business growth strategies Startup funding opportunities Executive leadership training Financial literacy education Success mindset podcast See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: At ADP, we understand the importance of building the right
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[0:17] Speaker 2: Hey, what's up?
[0:17] Speaker 3: It's your man, Carlos Miller of the 85 South Show.
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[0:30] Speaker 3: Black Market. Hear amazing interviews with entrepreneurs, creatives, and thought leaders,
[0:35] Speaker 3: people who are doing amazing things in the Black community.
[0:39] Speaker 3: Listen to the Black Market on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
[0:43] Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to podcasts.
[0:49] Speaker 4: Look through your children's eyes and you will discover the
[0:52] Speaker 4: true magic of a forest.
[0:55] Speaker 5: Find a forest near you and start exploring at discovertheforest.org.
[0:59] Speaker 5: Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and
[1:01] Speaker 5: the Ad Council.
[1:08] Speaker 6: Welcome to Money Making Conversations. It's the show that shares
[1:10] Speaker 6: the secrets of success experienced firsthand by marketing and branding
[1:13] Speaker 6: expert Rashawn McDonald.
[1:15] Speaker 7: I will know.
[1:15] Speaker 6: He's given me advice on many occasions in case you
[1:17] Speaker 6: didn't notice. I'm not broke. You know he'll be interviewing celebrities, CEOs, entrepreneurs,
[1:23] Speaker 6: and industry decision makers. It's what he likes to do.
[1:25] Speaker 6: It's what he likes to share. Now it's time to
[1:28] Speaker 6: hear from my man, Rashawn McDonald. Money Making Conversations.
[1:32] Speaker 8: Here we go.
[1:33] Speaker 9: Welcome to Money Making Conversations. I am your host, Rashawn McDonald.
[1:36] Speaker 9: I tell people every week as we start this show,
[1:39] Speaker 9: it's time to stop reading other people's success stories and
[1:41] Speaker 9: actually start writing your own.
[1:43] Speaker 7: A lot of people are held back. I always tell people,
[1:45] Speaker 7: you're here by gifts. You're here by passion.
[1:47] Speaker 9: I tell people to lead with their gifts and don't
[1:49] Speaker 9: let their age, especially their age, friends, family, or coworkers
[1:53] Speaker 9: stop you from planning or living your dream. My interviews,
[1:56] Speaker 9: I bring on money-making conversations you might see with celebrities, CEOs, entrepreneurs,
[2:00] Speaker 9: and what I like to call industry decision makers. My
[2:03] Speaker 9: next guest is Craig Melvin. He's the co-host of the
[2:06] Speaker 9: Today Show and the author of the book, Pops, Learning
[2:09] Speaker 9: to Be a Son and a Father.
[2:11] Speaker 7: You may know Craig.
[2:12] Speaker 9: He's an award-winning news anchor, as I said earlier on
[2:14] Speaker 9: the Today Show. You also have seen him on MSNBC
[2:17] Speaker 9: Live and the host of Dateline. He's on the show
[2:19] Speaker 9: to discuss his book, Pops, Learning to Be a Son
[2:22] Speaker 9: and a Father. It's the story of all the father
[2:24] Speaker 9: figures in Craig's life, and that includes inspiring men from
[2:27] Speaker 9: his program or his series called Dad's Got This Series
[2:31] Speaker 9: on NBC News Today. These experiences and encounters have shaped
[2:35] Speaker 9: Craig's understanding of his own role as a dad.
[2:38] Speaker 7: And I'm sure I can be related.
[2:39] Speaker 9: We'll have a nice conversation in since Father's Day has
[2:41] Speaker 9: recently passed.
[2:43] Speaker 7: He has two young children.
[2:44] Speaker 9: Please welcome to Money Making Conversation, my man, Craig Milven.
[2:47] Speaker 7: How you doing, Craig?
[2:49] Speaker 2: Well, Sean, I'm well. I'm well.
[2:50] Speaker 10: Thank you so much for having me. I always enjoy
[2:54] Speaker 10: your conversation, so I like to be a part of one.
[2:56] Speaker 7: Thank you, my man. A southern boy, South Carolina, okay?
[3:00] Speaker 2: There you go.
[3:00] Speaker 9: You know, I don't know, you know, When I see
[3:03] Speaker 9: people on TV and you're so articulate, there are no y'alls,
[3:07] Speaker 9: there are no accents.
[3:08] Speaker 11: How does a man come straight out of Columbia?
[3:10] Speaker 9: And I know Columbia because Steve Harvey and I used
[3:12] Speaker 9: to go down a lot performing at the town center,
[3:14] Speaker 9: selling that place out all the time. So I'm very
[3:16] Speaker 9: familiar with South Carolina, Charleston, that whole low country. There's
[3:20] Speaker 9: no low country in your country. Tone, what's going on here?
[3:23] Speaker 9: How you break that low country accent?
[3:27] Speaker 2: It's funny because I never had it.
[3:29] Speaker 10: My mom, you'll appreciate this, growing up in Houston, the
[3:34] Speaker 10: way that you grew up. My mom grew up in
[3:36] Speaker 10: the projects and first in the family to go to
[3:39] Speaker 10: college and first in the family to get a graduate degree.
[3:43] Speaker 2: So when we.
[3:44] Speaker 10: Came along, she wanted to expose us. to things and
[3:49] Speaker 10: places that she had not been exposed to. And consequently,
[3:55] Speaker 10: I think I was probably 14 or 15, and she
[3:58] Speaker 10: had us take.
[3:59] Speaker 2: Part in these oratorical contests.
[4:01] Speaker 7: Right.
[4:02] Speaker 10: And that was kind of how it started. So I
[4:07] Speaker 10: took some public speaking classes and then these oratorical contests.
[4:12] Speaker 10: And then the next thing you knew, I had what
[4:14] Speaker 10: they like to call in the business a nondescript dialect.
[4:18] Speaker 1: Right.
[4:19] Speaker 2: You can't really tell based on listening to me where
[4:23] Speaker 2: I'm from. It's a blessing now. When I was growing up,
[4:26] Speaker 2: it was always, he's talking white. Absolutely. He talks like
[4:31] Speaker 2: a white boy. So it's, you know, it was a curse.
[4:36] Speaker 2: Now it's a blessing.
[4:37] Speaker 9: Well, you know, it's interesting because I knew in my
[4:39] Speaker 9: middle school, I remember my teacher used to always ask
[4:42] Speaker 9: me to read, used to always ask me to read. And,
[4:44] Speaker 9: you know, people talk about bullying. And, you know, when
[4:46] Speaker 9: you people talk about, They call you snowflake. That was
[4:49] Speaker 9: a form of bullying. And then so it's popularized now
[4:52] Speaker 9: because people are willing to talk about it. But we
[4:54] Speaker 9: all grew up in some form of physical or mental
[4:57] Speaker 9: abuse from high school kids or people in the neighborhood.
[5:00] Speaker 7: And I remember this girl, she.
[5:02] Speaker 9: Made such a big deal that I was always asked
[5:05] Speaker 9: to read that it almost, I have to say, traumatized
[5:08] Speaker 9: me because I went exactly the opposite. I wanted to talk.
[5:12] Speaker 9: I wanted to say ain't. I wanted to slur my words.
[5:15] Speaker 9: I wanted to fit in. And so with you, I
[5:18] Speaker 9: bring that story up because you talk about it because
[5:20] Speaker 9: you was hit with it. You was hit, you know,
[5:22] Speaker 9: talking wide, didn't want to act wide. You were calling
[5:25] Speaker 9: it a snowflake. What kept you focused? What kept you
[5:28] Speaker 9: from veering off like I veered off? I veered off
[5:31] Speaker 9: and I said, hey, man, I want to fit in
[5:33] Speaker 9: and not be me.
[5:35] Speaker 2: You know, I think it was, when I write about
[5:37] Speaker 2: it in the book, my mother, my mother.
[5:39] Speaker 10: Really, Rashad, I mean, she kept us on the straight
[5:43] Speaker 10: and narrow. At the time, we resented the strictness. I mean,
[5:48] Speaker 10: my mom, she knew all of our friends. She knew
[5:52] Speaker 10: all of the parents. We weren't allowed to stay out past,
[5:56] Speaker 10: you know, during the week, maybe nine o'clock, maybe on
[6:00] Speaker 10: the weekends when kids were going to parties and having fun.
[6:03] Speaker 10: I was doing oratorical contests and activities. And I went
[6:08] Speaker 10: to in high school. I think I probably went to
[6:11] Speaker 10: maybe three high school football games on Friday night.
[6:14] Speaker 2: I just I didn't I grew up on a very
[6:16] Speaker 2: tight leash.
[6:17] Speaker 5: Right.
[6:18] Speaker 10: And part of it was my mother overcompensating for my
[6:21] Speaker 10: father not being the kind of dad that he should
[6:23] Speaker 10: have been.
[6:24] Speaker 2: But part of it was mom knew she knew back then,
[6:27] Speaker 2: I think. Kind of what it took. She was a schoolteacher.
[6:30] Speaker 2: Then she went into administration.
[6:32] Speaker 10: She knew what it took to shape and mold young
[6:37] Speaker 10: black boys, especially.
[6:38] Speaker 2: Right. And that was it. Had it not been for her,
[6:41] Speaker 2: had I grown up in another house, we wouldn't be
[6:44] Speaker 2: having this conversation right now.
[6:45] Speaker 9: Well, you know, in writing your book, you know, the
[6:47] Speaker 9: book we're talking about, interviewing Craig Melvin, his book, Pops,
[6:50] Speaker 9: Learning to Be a Son and a Father. Is it
[6:52] Speaker 9: because of the fact that your father wasn't there, that
[6:56] Speaker 9: she may be overcompensated? and wanted to make sure you
[7:00] Speaker 9: had a better life or you pursued the options, even
[7:03] Speaker 9: though I knew she went to college. I think at
[7:05] Speaker 9: the age of 22 is when she became pregnant with you.
[7:08] Speaker 12: It's finally here, the season of celebration. And no matter
[7:12] Speaker 12: how you celebrate with family and friends, whether you're preparing
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[8:04] Speaker 13: Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not
[8:06] Speaker 13: enough people know about, and we're here to change that.
[8:09] Speaker 13: I'm April Dinwiddie, host of the new podcast, Navigating Adoption,
[8:12] Speaker 13: presented by AdoptUSKids. Each episode brings you compelling real-life adoption
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[8:26] Speaker 13: presented by AdoptUSKids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department
[8:29] Speaker 13: of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families
[8:32] Speaker 13: and the Ad Council.
[8:34] Speaker 4: What grows in the forest?
[8:36] Speaker 5: Trees?
[8:37] Speaker 10: Sure.
[8:37] Speaker 4: Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination. Our
[8:41] Speaker 4: sense of wonder. And our family bonds grow too. Because
[8:44] Speaker 4: when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we
[8:51] Speaker 4: reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think.
[8:55] Speaker 4: Find a forest near you and start exploring at discovertheforest.org.
[8:59] Speaker 4: Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and
[9:02] Speaker 4: the Ad Council.
[9:04] Speaker 9: But talk about that in the middle of this, because
[9:06] Speaker 9: as we talk about trying to shape you because of
[9:09] Speaker 9: the fact that you've been shaped by a lot of people,
[9:11] Speaker 9: especially the stories. We're going to talk about the prison
[9:14] Speaker 9: incident when you was out at Camp Grace, how that
[9:16] Speaker 9: really kind of like started you in this direction of
[9:19] Speaker 9: humanizing all men, especially men who are incarcerated. Talk about
[9:23] Speaker 9: your mom and her role versus your dad role, because.
[9:27] Speaker 7: You mentioned it just a little bit.
[9:28] Speaker 9: But that centers around us getting into the story and
[9:30] Speaker 9: your father changing his life at the age of 67.
[9:34] Speaker 10: Mom had to play the role of mom and dad
[9:38] Speaker 10: for the better part of my childhood. It was a
[9:43] Speaker 10: role that she was fortunately well prepared for it because
[9:48] Speaker 10: she had to take care of her three younger siblings
[9:51] Speaker 10: when she was in college. And her father skipped out
[9:55] Speaker 10: on the family, ended up essentially dying on the streets
[9:58] Speaker 10: in squalor. But no, a mom, because my father was
[10:04] Speaker 10: not physically present as often as I would have liked
[10:09] Speaker 10: and my younger brother would have liked and my older
[10:11] Speaker 10: brother as well, mom stepped in to fill the gap.
[10:15] Speaker 2: She filled the void.
[10:16] Speaker 10: And not just being present in the sense of Sean,
[10:20] Speaker 10: Little League games or soccer games or concerts, not just
[10:25] Speaker 10: physically present, but emotionally present, spiritually present. I mean, the
[10:30] Speaker 10: relationship that I have with God is because of my
[10:34] Speaker 10: mother's relationship with God. So it was divine intervention. Had
[10:41] Speaker 10: I had any other mother, things would not have gone
[10:46] Speaker 10: the way that they did. But, you know, it's also,
[10:49] Speaker 10: and I write about it in the book, as you know,
[10:51] Speaker 10: and I do appreciate the fact that you read the book.
[10:53] Speaker 10: You'd be surprised how often we talk to people about
[10:55] Speaker 10: books and they haven't read word one. But I can
[11:00] Speaker 10: tell you read the whole thing. And I write about
[11:02] Speaker 10: it in the book. My father, I asked him during
[11:04] Speaker 10: the course of my interviews with him for the book,
[11:08] Speaker 10: I said, Pops, what was the most money you ever wasted?
[11:10] Speaker 7: Mm-hmm.
[11:12] Speaker 2: Without missing a beat.
[11:13] Speaker 10: He said it was about $ 1, 500 back in 1986.
[11:15] Speaker 2: I said, well, that was a lot of money back then.
[11:18] Speaker 2: What'd you spend that money on?
[11:19] Speaker 10: He said, that's how much it cost to put my
[11:21] Speaker 10: daddy in the ground.
[11:23] Speaker 2: And in that moment, I realized.
[11:26] Speaker 10: That while I had been frustrated by the lack of
[11:30] Speaker 10: relationship I had with my dad, it was exponentially better
[11:33] Speaker 10: than the relationship he had with his own father. He
[11:36] Speaker 10: didn't even know who his dad was until he was
[11:38] Speaker 10: almost a teenager.
[11:40] Speaker 2: So it was.
[11:42] Speaker 10: It was wholly unrealistic of me to expect him to
[11:46] Speaker 10: be the kind of dad that I had come to idolize.
[11:51] Speaker 10: He couldn't be it because he hadn't seen it. And
[11:54] Speaker 10: you can't be something. Scratch that. It's really hard to
[11:58] Speaker 10: be something if you haven't seen it, if you haven't
[12:02] Speaker 10: been exposed to it. So that's what my dad was
[12:03] Speaker 10: up against.
[12:04] Speaker 9: Well, you know, when I read the book, you know,
[12:08] Speaker 9: I heard Shotgun House. Okay, I grew up in, I
[12:11] Speaker 9: was born in a shotgun house, two bedroom shotgun house.
[12:13] Speaker 9: A lot of people, if you listen to shotgun house,
[12:15] Speaker 9: Open the front door, shoot a shotgun, go out the
[12:18] Speaker 9: front back door, don't hit anything. That's a shotgun house, okay?
[12:23] Speaker 9: You referenced pig feet. Grew up with pig feet, my man. Hey,
[12:26] Speaker 9: I wouldn't touch them.
[12:27] Speaker 8: Now, Greg.
[12:28] Speaker 7: I wouldn't touch them now.
[12:30] Speaker 11: But pig feet were part of my lifestyle.
[12:33] Speaker 7: And so that's the Southern. I'm from Houston, Texas. I'm
[12:35] Speaker 7: from the South. It was a lifestyle.
[12:38] Speaker 9: That was normal to me, but it was also a
[12:39] Speaker 9: community lifestyle that of people taking care of each other.
[12:43] Speaker 9: And that was really important. Not only your dad, even
[12:46] Speaker 9: though there were some missteps, there were still people there
[12:49] Speaker 9: to take care of him, you know, to make sure
[12:51] Speaker 9: he was focused, to shout at him as he became
[12:54] Speaker 9: an adult.
[12:54] Speaker 7: There were people in the community.
[12:56] Speaker 9: That's really important in this book that no matter what,
[13:00] Speaker 9: there's some form of family tied to your story and
[13:03] Speaker 9: the people in your life.
[13:05] Speaker 7: Talk about that.
[13:07] Speaker 10: You know, it's funny because long before people started talking
[13:11] Speaker 10: about it taking a village.
[13:14] Speaker 2: to rear a child, I had a village.
[13:17] Speaker 10: It wasn't called that back in the 80s in South Carolina,
[13:20] Speaker 10: back in the 80s and 90s when.
[13:21] Speaker 2: I grew up, but I had a village.
[13:24] Speaker 10: And yes, there were a number of men who played
[13:28] Speaker 10: the role of dad along the way.
[13:29] Speaker 2: My Uncle James, my Uncle Jake, my Uncle Frank.
[13:34] Speaker 10: But there were also a lot of women that played
[13:37] Speaker 10: the part as well.
[13:39] Speaker 2: I was disciplined, and I think that's the politically correct term.
[13:45] Speaker 10: I was disciplined by more women growing up than men,
[13:48] Speaker 10: whether it was my mom or one of my aunts
[13:51] Speaker 10: or my grandma. I spent a lot of time with
[13:53] Speaker 10: my two grandmothers growing up. And they really shaped me
[13:58] Speaker 10: in myriad ways that I didn't fully appreciate until.
[14:01] Speaker 2: I was older.
[14:02] Speaker 7: Right.
[14:03] Speaker 2: And then after that, I had coaches along the way.
[14:06] Speaker 2: I always.
[14:07] Speaker 10: God always blessed me with people along the road that
[14:13] Speaker 10: gave me a little part of something that I was
[14:17] Speaker 10: able to take and build on. It's difficult for young
[14:21] Speaker 10: Black men especially, it's difficult to learn how to carry
[14:25] Speaker 10: yourself in this world. without examples of it. And I
[14:32] Speaker 10: had lots of examples, thankfully, along the way. But the
[14:36] Speaker 10: reality is, as you know, Sean, A lot of kids
[14:38] Speaker 10: don't have that. A lot of kids don't.
[14:40] Speaker 2: They just, you know, through no fault of their own mind.
[14:44] Speaker 10: They don't have a mother or a father or an
[14:47] Speaker 10: uncle or an aunt to take their hand on this
[14:52] Speaker 10: journey of life. And so they end up finding role
[14:55] Speaker 10: models that should not be held up or that should
[15:00] Speaker 10: not be on a pedestal.
[15:01] Speaker 2: And they begin to emulate them.
[15:04] Speaker 14: And we're live here outside the Perez family home just
[15:07] Speaker 14: waiting for the.
[15:08] Speaker 11: And there they go.
[15:09] Speaker 2: Almost on time this morning.
[15:11] Speaker 14: Mom is coming out the front door strong with a
[15:14] Speaker 14: double-arm kid carry. Looks like dad has the bags. Daughter
[15:17] Speaker 14: is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag
[15:20] Speaker 14: wasn't closed. Diapers and toys are everywhere.
[15:25] Speaker 2: Ooh, but Mom has just nailed.
[15:27] Speaker 14: The perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now
[15:30] Speaker 14: the eldest daughter, who looks to be about 9 or 10,
[15:33] Speaker 14: has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the
[15:35] Speaker 14: bag closed, and they're off. Ah, but looks like Mom
[15:39] Speaker 14: doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof
[15:42] Speaker 14: of the car.
[15:43] Speaker 8: And there it goes.
[15:45] Speaker 2: Oh, that's a shame. That mug was a fam favorite.
[15:48] Speaker 2: Don't sweat the small stuff. Just nail the big stuff.
[15:51] Speaker 7: Like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the
[15:53] Speaker 7: right seat for their age and size. Learn more at
[15:55] Speaker 7: NHTSA.gov slash the right seat.
[15:57] Speaker 8: Visit NHTSA.gov slash the right seat.
[16:01] Speaker 2: Brought to you by NHTSA and the Ad Council.
[16:04] Speaker 4: Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic
[16:07] Speaker 4: of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You
[16:10] Speaker 4: look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face
[16:13] Speaker 4: of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They
[16:17] Speaker 4: see treasure in pebbles. They see a windy path that
[16:20] Speaker 4: could lead to adventure. And they see you, their fearless
[16:24] Speaker 4: guide through this fascinating world.
[16:27] Speaker 5: Find a forest near you and start exploring at discovertheforest.org.
[16:31] Speaker 5: Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and
[16:33] Speaker 5: the Ad Council. What grows in the forest? Trees?
[16:37] Speaker 10: Sure.
[16:38] Speaker 4: Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination. Our
[16:41] Speaker 4: sense of wonder. And our family bonds grow too. Because
[16:45] Speaker 4: when we disconnect from this.
[16:49] Speaker 4: And connect with this. We reconnect with each other. The
[16:53] Speaker 4: forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near
[16:56] Speaker 4: you and start exploring at discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by
[17:00] Speaker 4: the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council.
[17:04] Speaker 9: You know, the thing I really like about your book
[17:07] Speaker 9: is that sometimes, because my father was a truck driver,
[17:11] Speaker 9: you know, so, you know, when he wasn't driving trucks,
[17:13] Speaker 9: you know, he wasn't really interested.
[17:17] Speaker 7: Connected to me.
[17:18] Speaker 9: I can tell you he was my father. I can
[17:20] Speaker 9: tell you that. My mom was there for me. My
[17:22] Speaker 9: mom pushed me. My mom always felt I could be
[17:25] Speaker 9: somebody special in life. When your father showed up for
[17:28] Speaker 9: your ball game, that memory, you don't know if you
[17:31] Speaker 9: got hit or home run or got struck out every
[17:34] Speaker 9: time you went up the bat, but you remember that moment.
[17:36] Speaker 7: Then when your mom rescued you when you.
[17:38] Speaker 9: Thought you had entered early fatherhood, those are two moments
[17:46] Speaker 9: that really I bring up those two moments, Craig, because
[17:49] Speaker 9: despite of all the things we do in our life,
[17:51] Speaker 9: there are always memories that really, some haunt people, some
[17:56] Speaker 9: inspire people. Your father showing up for your game and
[17:59] Speaker 9: your mom basically coming to the rescue because she did
[18:03] Speaker 9: something that enabled you to relax. Talk about those two
[18:06] Speaker 9: key moments of parenting. Even though your father wasn't there,
[18:10] Speaker 9: that was a key parenting moment that he provided for
[18:13] Speaker 9: you that stays with you today and probably carries into
[18:15] Speaker 9: your parenting with your with your children today and then
[18:18] Speaker 9: your mom being there for you at a moment of doubt, frustration, fear,
[18:23] Speaker 9: but both of them were there at different times.
[18:25] Speaker 10: I mean, you're, you're talking about the part of my
[18:27] Speaker 10: book where I, I, I, I almost became a teenage father.
[18:32] Speaker 2: I was almost a statistic at the age of 14.
[18:34] Speaker 2: No less. I made a, a, a, a, a bad choice.
[18:41] Speaker 2: I made a bad choice. And you know what?
[18:43] Speaker 10: I write about it because I, I wrote about it
[18:45] Speaker 10: because I wanted people to understand, uh, there, but for
[18:50] Speaker 10: the grace of God, go I. And, and, and, and
[18:53] Speaker 10: I think a lot of folks can relate to this,
[18:55] Speaker 10: this idea that, you know, there's that night or sometimes
[18:59] Speaker 10: that day, but usually it's, it's that night where you
[19:02] Speaker 10: went left, but you could have gone right. Right.
[19:04] Speaker 7: Right.
[19:04] Speaker 2: Right. And had you made.
[19:08] Speaker 10: A different decision, it would have altered the course of
[19:11] Speaker 10: your life in a dramatic way.
[19:14] Speaker 2: That almost happened to me. I got lucky.
[19:16] Speaker 10: And at that point in my life, I didn't have
[19:20] Speaker 10: much of a relationship with my father. I was afraid
[19:24] Speaker 10: of my mother, definitely afraid.
[19:27] Speaker 2: So I couldn't talk to her about it.
[19:30] Speaker 10: And it was a situation where, you know, this young
[19:32] Speaker 10: lady was convinced she was pregnant. And I like I
[19:36] Speaker 10: had to I had to do something. This was not
[19:38] Speaker 10: one of the situations where inaction was an option.
[19:41] Speaker 2: Right. And and I write in the book about how
[19:44] Speaker 2: I went.
[19:44] Speaker 10: To my my aunt and it was my aunt that
[19:47] Speaker 10: finally convinced me that I had no choice but to
[19:49] Speaker 10: talk to my.
[19:50] Speaker 2: Mother.
[19:51] Speaker 10: But my mom has always been, long before we started
[19:54] Speaker 10: calling people fixers.
[19:56] Speaker 2: My mom was a fixer.
[19:57] Speaker 10: Like it was, that obviously was an extreme example, but
[20:02] Speaker 10: there were so many other times in my life where
[20:04] Speaker 10: I thought I was out of options. I didn't know
[20:07] Speaker 10: what I was going to do. And I prayed to
[20:08] Speaker 10: God and put trust in Betty Jo Melvin. And Betty
[20:12] Speaker 10: Jo Melvin always came through and still does now, mind you.
[20:15] Speaker 2: In a different way.
[20:16] Speaker 10: My dad, you know, wrote about that part in the
[20:19] Speaker 10: book with Sean Webb. He showed up at my little
[20:21] Speaker 10: league game and the memory stayed with me because it
[20:25] Speaker 10: was so rare to that point. My dad, and again,
[20:30] Speaker 10: now looking back on it, knowing what we know about addiction,
[20:34] Speaker 10: about it being a disease and not a weakness, I
[20:36] Speaker 10: understand why he wasn't there. I understand why he had
[20:41] Speaker 10: walled himself off from our family and society at large.
[20:44] Speaker 2: But back then, I was a kid.
[20:46] Speaker 10: You know, I was a kid who wanted my dad
[20:49] Speaker 10: to be proud of me and see me and certainly
[20:52] Speaker 10: watch my Little League games. And so when he showed
[20:55] Speaker 10: up that evening and I saw him down the third
[20:58] Speaker 10: baseline there on the fence, it's a memory that stayed
[21:01] Speaker 10: with me because it was so rare. That being said,
[21:03] Speaker 10: now he's everywhere. Like, you know, he was up two
[21:07] Speaker 10: weeks ago. My son had a soccer game. My dad
[21:10] Speaker 10: was right there with me on the sideline. And 30
[21:13] Speaker 10: seconds in, my boy hadn't scored a goal all season.
[21:16] Speaker 2: 30 seconds in, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, shoot, score.
[21:22] Speaker 2: First goal of the game.
[21:23] Speaker 10: And me and my pops are high-fiving like he had
[21:26] Speaker 10: just won a green jacket at Augusta. Yes.
[21:28] Speaker 2: You know....
[21:30] Speaker 7: The book is an emotional book.
[21:33] Speaker 9: I say emotional because I told people, when I get
[21:36] Speaker 9: a book like this, I have to slow read it
[21:38] Speaker 9: because sometimes it'll hit points where I go.
[21:40] Speaker 7: Oh, I'm about to go there. Let me finish this moment.
[21:45] Speaker 9: Because I remember a moment with my dad, 1992, when
[21:48] Speaker 9: I owned a comedy club. And my dad had never,
[21:53] Speaker 9: ever been to anything I had been. And he just
[21:55] Speaker 9: showed up at the comedy club. And it was sold
[21:58] Speaker 9: out and I looked in the library.
[21:59] Speaker 7: I said, what you doing here, dad? He go, I
[22:01] Speaker 7: come to see my son. And he looked around. He looked. Wow,
[22:05] Speaker 7: this you? This you? This you? And I went, yes, sir. Yes, sir.
[22:10] Speaker 7: Because I always said sir to my dad.
[22:12] Speaker 9: And he said, I'm proud of you, son. And like
[22:18] Speaker 9: I said, because that's what the book did to me
[22:21] Speaker 9: as a dad. Because when you start talking about incarceration,
[22:26] Speaker 9: And you talk about, remember you said earlier, right turn,
[22:28] Speaker 9: left turn, those turns. I always say that when I
[22:32] Speaker 9: was in college, you know, you played as a fraternity.
[22:34] Speaker 9: I played Jamaica sci-fi. And you always do stupid things.
[22:37] Speaker 9: I remember the big brothers.
[22:38] Speaker 11: Said, we want some plants.
[22:40] Speaker 7: Well, we didn't have no money. And so I remember this.
[22:43] Speaker 9: Giant open field where they had plants back in the day.
[22:46] Speaker 9: And me and my line brothers, we went and stole
[22:49] Speaker 9: these plants, man. I mean, if you look back on it, Craig,
[22:53] Speaker 9: from the freeway, you would have seen us running across
[22:55] Speaker 9: this field with these plants, okay? So anybody could have went,
[22:59] Speaker 9: what are those black dudes, boys, doing running with all
[23:01] Speaker 9: these giant plants? And I had a little Fiat X19,
[23:06] Speaker 9: which is a two-seater, and the truck was in the front.
[23:09] Speaker 11: So I had to put the plants in the front,
[23:11] Speaker 11: and it was blocking my windshield.
[23:13] Speaker 9: So all along the way, I could have stopped and
[23:16] Speaker 9: stopped by the police and been incarcerated. And my life
[23:19] Speaker 9: could have changed on that right turn, left turn that
[23:21] Speaker 9: you were talking about earlier.
[23:23] Speaker 7: You are meeting men who've done.
[23:25] Speaker 9: Something far worse than what I've talked about, but they
[23:28] Speaker 9: have made a mistake. And sometimes because they've made a mistake,
[23:31] Speaker 9: we don't give them a second chance because we feel
[23:33] Speaker 9: that they are unworthy of that second chance. And then
[23:36] Speaker 9: in your book, you talk about, guess what? They are
[23:38] Speaker 9: fathers too. Let's talk about that journey of you doing
[23:43] Speaker 9: a story. I think basically changed your life. And it
[23:46] Speaker 9: started with Camp Grace.
[23:48] Speaker 2: Yeah, it was one of the most impactful stories I've
[23:50] Speaker 2: ever done.
[23:51] Speaker 10: There's a, and I don't even remember how we found
[23:54] Speaker 10: out about this camp, but I was probably reading some
[23:57] Speaker 10: article in an obscure publication about this summer camp at
[24:02] Speaker 10: a maximum security prison in California, Salinas State Valley Prison
[24:09] Speaker 10: is the name of the facility. And for one week
[24:13] Speaker 10: every summer, they bring in about a dozen or so
[24:18] Speaker 10: kids to basically have a camp experience with their dads.
[24:23] Speaker 10: I mean, you know, arts and crafts and they play
[24:26] Speaker 10: games and they sing songs and they do all the
[24:28] Speaker 10: stuff that you would do at a camp. I mean,
[24:31] Speaker 10: these kids are between the ages of, you know, seven
[24:33] Speaker 10: or eight and 15 or 16.
[24:35] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
[24:38] Speaker 10: And the guys who are part of the program have
[24:40] Speaker 10: to exhibit good behavior for a full year. The camp
[24:46] Speaker 10: is a privilege. And I went out and spent some
[24:50] Speaker 10: time talking to these guys.
[24:52] Speaker 2: And it ended up being great.
[24:54] Speaker 10: Just an emotional day because these are men, first of all,
[24:57] Speaker 10: most of them are not going to be getting out
[25:00] Speaker 10: of prison.
[25:00] Speaker 2: I mean, some of them have been convicted of doing
[25:04] Speaker 2: some pretty heinous things.
[25:07] Speaker 10: But the two women that started the camp, both of
[25:11] Speaker 10: their husbands were incarcerated and consequently weren't.
[25:15] Speaker 2: Really a part of the child's lives.
[25:19] Speaker 10: They would get the occasional visit, you know, on a
[25:21] Speaker 10: weekend and you've got the glass. But they weren't able
[25:24] Speaker 10: to really be a part of the child's life. So
[25:26] Speaker 10: they came up with this idea for a camp. And
[25:28] Speaker 10: I talked to one of the guys out there and.
[25:30] Speaker 2: I asked him the question.
[25:31] Speaker 10: I knew a lot of people were going to be
[25:32] Speaker 10: asking when they watched or read the story. How can
[25:35] Speaker 10: someone accused of some of the things these guys were
[25:41] Speaker 10: accused of? In what universe do they deserve this? the
[25:46] Speaker 10: right to spend time with a child. And without missing
[25:51] Speaker 10: a beat, he said to me, tears in his eyes,
[25:56] Speaker 10: they might be right. I may not deserve it, but
[25:59] Speaker 10: you know what, Craig? My kids do. My kids deserve
[26:03] Speaker 10: to know their father. They didn't do anything wrong. They
[26:07] Speaker 10: didn't make any bad choices. And his larger point, and
[26:10] Speaker 10: I think this was just as valid, if we're serious
[26:13] Speaker 10: about stopping the prison pipeline that we always talk about,
[26:17] Speaker 10: then we need.
[26:18] Speaker 2: To make sure that kids... of incarcerated individuals, have relationships
[26:23] Speaker 2: with them.
[26:23] Speaker 10: He spent a fair amount of his time talking to
[26:25] Speaker 10: his daughter about choices, making good choices, not ending up
[26:30] Speaker 10: where he ended up.
[26:32] Speaker 2: It's a fantastic program and it moved me. It also
[26:35] Speaker 2: moved me, Rashad, because my grandmother, and it's the first
[26:39] Speaker 2: line in.
[26:39] Speaker 10: The book, not to give away too much, but My grandmother,
[26:42] Speaker 10: now when I knew her, she was going to church,
[26:47] Speaker 10: at church, or coming home from church.
[26:50] Speaker 2: She only loved the Lord. Apparently, long before I came along.
[26:55] Speaker 11: I'll tell you what, Craig, let's just say she's a bootlegger.
[26:57] Speaker 7: I don't want to give away no more than that.
[26:59] Speaker 7: Just say she's a bootlegger. I don't want to give
[27:00] Speaker 7: away the earlier part, okay? She's a bootlegger.
[27:02] Speaker 2: She was a bootlegger. She was a bootlegger and got
[27:07] Speaker 2: a second chance.
[27:08] Speaker 8: Yes, she did.
[27:09] Speaker 10: And had she not gotten a second chance, who's to
[27:13] Speaker 10: say whether I would be here right now, you know?
[27:16] Speaker 9: But here's the thing I want to point out about that. Now,
[27:18] Speaker 9: his grandmother was in the same jail that Martha Stewart
[27:22] Speaker 9: was in.
[27:23] Speaker 11: So she got how many chances that she's got.
[27:26] Speaker 2: Okay.
[27:27] Speaker 7: But we're in the same facility now.
[27:29] Speaker 9: And so when I read the book, and like I said,
[27:33] Speaker 9: it's an emotional journey because it's your story. But it's
[27:36] Speaker 9: a relatable story because I remember when my younger brother
[27:39] Speaker 9: was incarcerated in California and glass talking, and I.
[27:44] Speaker 7: Was in tears. And he told me he couldn't cry.
[27:48] Speaker 7: He said, I can't cry. They can't. He said, I can't.
[27:52] Speaker 9: And my nickname is Ricky. He said, Ricky, I can't cry.
[27:54] Speaker 9: Because they see me crying out here, I pay a
[27:56] Speaker 9: price when I go back inside. And in that book,
[28:00] Speaker 9: you know, the gentleman you interviewed, he said, look, he said,
[28:03] Speaker 9: thank God I have a cell by myself. Because now
[28:07] Speaker 9: I can't cry. And so I love the fact that
[28:10] Speaker 9: you were humanizing people.
[28:11] Speaker 7: Because we see the violent side.
[28:15] Speaker 9: And nobody's trying to downplay that. But we have made mistakes.
[28:19] Speaker 9: There are people on the other side of this that
[28:20] Speaker 9: have to deal with it emotionally.
[28:22] Speaker 7: These are kids.
[28:23] Speaker 9: And like one of them said, look, it's all right
[28:26] Speaker 9: early on when you're playing cards and you're playing catch.
[28:30] Speaker 9: But when they become teens, the conversation becomes different. And
[28:33] Speaker 9: that's what fatherhood is all about, which leads to your
[28:36] Speaker 9: whole life of being a father, being connected to your
[28:39] Speaker 9: dad and now being a present day father.
[28:41] Speaker 7: Let's talk about that, Greg.
[28:43] Speaker 10: You know, I think that I think that you can
[28:47] Speaker 10: be shaped. by negative examples, just as much as you
[28:53] Speaker 10: can be shaped by positive examples.
[28:54] Speaker 2: In fact, I think in some instances, maybe even more so. So,
[28:58] Speaker 2: you know, growing.
[28:59] Speaker 10: Up, I didn't know the kind of man that I
[29:02] Speaker 10: wanted to be. I didn't certainly know the kind of
[29:05] Speaker 10: father that I wanted to be. But up until a
[29:07] Speaker 10: few years ago, I knew I didn't want to be
[29:10] Speaker 10: anything like my dad.
[29:11] Speaker 7: Yes.
[29:12] Speaker 10: Um, and, and, and, and that was what, what motivated
[29:15] Speaker 10: me personally and professionally, probably to a certain extent now
[29:18] Speaker 10: that I'm talking about it, but no, it's, it's, it's
[29:22] Speaker 10: funny because I have to remind my kids sometimes that
[29:25] Speaker 10: I have a job and, and, and consequently, I cannot
[29:30] Speaker 10: be at their beck and call, uh, day and night because,
[29:34] Speaker 10: you know, when my dad was there, when we were younger,
[29:37] Speaker 10: it was, big. Like it was a wedding or funeral
[29:40] Speaker 10: or graduation or that little league game that I write
[29:44] Speaker 10: about that I remember because it was so rare.
[29:46] Speaker 2: Dad didn't show up for stuff, in part because he.
[29:49] Speaker 10: Worked third shift at the post office, but in larger
[29:52] Speaker 10: part because of the addiction issues that he had.
[29:56] Speaker 2: So as a result, I've gone to the other end
[29:59] Speaker 2: of the spectrum.
[30:00] Speaker 10: So, you know, I'm there for soccer games and my
[30:02] Speaker 10: daughter had a gymnastics recital last Sunday morning. And, you know,
[30:07] Speaker 10: I'm physically present as often as in as much as
[30:11] Speaker 10: I can. You know, I do school pickup and I
[30:15] Speaker 10: try to do it all because, you know, my dad
[30:17] Speaker 10: didn't do any of it. Now, the problem that you
[30:21] Speaker 10: create when you do that, and it took.
[30:23] Speaker 2: Me a while to figure this out, I've created expectations.
[30:26] Speaker 10: So if I'm not there, it's like, oh, daddy's got
[30:30] Speaker 10: to travel for work. Well, daddy, why can't you, can
[30:34] Speaker 10: you take a later flight? Can you go tomorrow? And
[30:36] Speaker 10: I've had to say it a few times. You know,
[30:38] Speaker 10: it's the job that.
[30:40] Speaker 2: Pays for all of this.
[30:44] Speaker 10: You don't get to go to dance or you don't
[30:46] Speaker 10: get to go to soccer if daddy's not hopping on planes.
[30:50] Speaker 2: Absolutely.
[30:52] Speaker 10: So that's the unfortunate part. But they're starting to understand.
[30:56] Speaker 10: But it's funny as you become a parent, how you
[30:59] Speaker 10: at some point become... you become the kind of, for me,
[31:03] Speaker 10: at least the kind of father that I used to mock.
[31:05] Speaker 1: Yes.
[31:06] Speaker 2: I hated when my dad.
[31:07] Speaker 10: Would talk about, you know, how much something costs and
[31:10] Speaker 10: we don't have money for this.
[31:13] Speaker 2: And when we were younger, We didn't. He wasn't lying.
[31:16] Speaker 10: We knew we didn't have a lot of money. We
[31:18] Speaker 10: knew we had enough. With my kids, I've said a
[31:21] Speaker 10: few times, we can't afford this. And my son without
[31:24] Speaker 10: missing a beat will say, yes, we can.
[31:26] Speaker 2: Yes, we can.
[31:29] Speaker 10: And I'm like, and then you find yourself trying to
[31:32] Speaker 10: come up with a new excuse. Like, well, maybe we
[31:36] Speaker 10: can't afford it, but we don't need it. You don't
[31:38] Speaker 10: need that.
[31:39] Speaker 8: Right, right, right.
[31:40] Speaker 7: You know, so it's... It's hard.
[31:43] Speaker 2: It's hard.
[31:44] Speaker 7: I know we're about to wrap up.
[31:45] Speaker 9: I want to bring up a very fun moment as
[31:48] Speaker 9: a parent that I want to share with you because
[31:51] Speaker 9: you wrote about it when your son climbed in the bed. Kids,
[31:55] Speaker 9: when they sleep, if you don't have kids, children, if
[31:58] Speaker 9: you've got a very young child, when they climb in.
[32:01] Speaker 7: The bed, they forget you in bed.
[32:03] Speaker 9: Kids are the worst sleepers in the world, especially when
[32:06] Speaker 9: they get that six to ten years of age.
[32:08] Speaker 7: They're the worst sleepers.
[32:10] Speaker 9: And so when you say that in the book, you
[32:12] Speaker 9: say you may miss that. I remember when I talked
[32:17] Speaker 9: to my daughter when she was like 17.
[32:18] Speaker 11: I said, hey, won't you hop in bed and watch
[32:20] Speaker 11: a TV show?
[32:21] Speaker 7: What you talking about? I said, you know, can we
[32:24] Speaker 7: not watch a TV? Can we not watch TV together?
[32:27] Speaker 11: Remember we used to go, I don't do that no more, Dad.
[32:29] Speaker 10: Uh-uh.
[32:29] Speaker 7: No, no, we're not doing that. So I will tell
[32:32] Speaker 7: you this, Craig. That moment brought laughter to me. It
[32:35] Speaker 7: brought back memories.
[32:37] Speaker 9: As your book, the amazingly good book, Pops, Learning to
[32:40] Speaker 9: Be a Son and a Father, man, it's a great read.
[32:43] Speaker 9: Like I said, it slowed me. When I say the
[32:45] Speaker 9: word slowed me, because I was becoming emotional. Because like
[32:48] Speaker 9: I said, my father was a beer drinker. My father
[32:51] Speaker 9: worked hard as a truck driver. My father, like I said, was.
[32:55] Speaker 7: He in my life?
[32:56] Speaker 2: I don't know.
[32:57] Speaker 7: But did he shape me to be the man I
[32:58] Speaker 7: am today?
[32:59] Speaker 1: Yes, he did.
[32:59] Speaker 9: Because he had a role in it. And that role
[33:02] Speaker 9: has made me to be the man I am. I
[33:04] Speaker 9: like to believe I'm a good parent to my daughter.
[33:06] Speaker 9: a good husband to my wife. And those are the
[33:09] Speaker 9: things that the stories that you tell out of this book,
[33:12] Speaker 9: from the incarcerated to individuals who raised you as a family,
[33:16] Speaker 9: the community, and whether teachers who shaped.
[33:19] Speaker 7: You as third grade teachers who shaped.
[33:21] Speaker 9: You as you go through life and you went to
[33:24] Speaker 9: school and you didn't want to shame your uncle when
[33:27] Speaker 9: you didn't pledge Kappa Alpha Psi.
[33:30] Speaker 7: But it was all good, man. I love your book, Craig.
[33:33] Speaker 7: I want to appreciate you for putting it out there, man.
[33:35] Speaker 7: Thank you.
[33:36] Speaker 10: Thank you for your time. I've enjoyed this conversation. You're
[33:39] Speaker 10: very good at what you do. Thank you for having me.
[33:41] Speaker 5: Okay.
[33:41] Speaker 7: We talk soon, man. I'm going to put this on.
[33:43] Speaker 7: I got a nice little social media.
[33:45] Speaker 9: I'm going to put that out there in my newsletter.
[33:47] Speaker 9: We're going to get that out there for you.
[33:48] Speaker 2: Okay, Craig? Thank you, sir. Be well, okay?
[33:50] Speaker 10: All right.
[33:51] Speaker 2: Bye-bye.
[33:52] Speaker 9: If you want to see or hear any of my
[33:53] Speaker 9: interviews on Money Making Conversation, please go to MoneyMakingConversation.com.
[33:57] Speaker 7: I'm Rashawn McDonald. I am your host.
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[34:58] Speaker 15: When I was 18 years old, A nun at my
[35:00] Speaker 15: high school was brutally murdered. Getting to the truth has
[35:04] Speaker 15: opened a Pandora's box of secrets, exposing abuse of power
[35:08] Speaker 15: and a world of lies at one Miami monastery.
[35:12] Speaker 5: I mean, the woman was stabbed 90 plus times.
[35:16] Speaker 2: There's got to be something else.
[35:18] Speaker 8: Going on here.
[35:21] Speaker 15: Listen to Sacred Scandal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
[35:25] Speaker 15: or wherever you get your podcasts.

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