# Lessons on Money, Success, and Fulfillment You Need to Hear (ft. Lewis Howes)

An episode of [SOLVED with Mark Manson](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1247526593), 19 Mar 2025, 1 h 14 min.

Audio: https://claritaspod.com/measure/pscrb.fm/rss/p/mgln.ai/e/441/dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/episode.flightcast.com/f3rxid1khmaezpz1qd4t5ms4.mp3

Lewis Howes is one of the most successful podcasters of all time—12 years, nearly 1,800 episodes, and countless interviews with world-class performers. But what’s even more interesting is how his definition of success has evolved over the years. In this conversation, Lewis opens up about shifting from a hyper-competitive, “be number one” mentality to a more collaborative, impact-driven approach. We also dive into emotional regulation, the surprising ways our relationship with money affects our lives, and why most people either idolize or demonize wealth. Oh, and Lewis casually mentions he’s training to compete in the Olympics in his 40s. No big deal. This episode is packed with insights on what it really means to live a fulfilling, abundant life—without losing your mind in the process. Lewis's new book, Make Money Easy: https://www.amazon.com/Make-Money-Easy-Financial-Freedom/dp/1401993931 Lewis's podcast, The School of Greatness: https://lewishowes.com/sogpodcast/ CHAPTERS Chapters • 00:00:00 Introduction and 12 Years of Podcasting • 00:01:03 Redefining Greatness: From Competition to Collaboration • 00:03:35 The Jealousy Trap and Learning to Celebrate Others • 00:04:49 When Being Number One Isn't Enough • 00:10:24 The School of Greatness: Creating Your Own Therapy • 00:12:07 From Hypercompetitive Athlete to Emotionally Aware Human • 00:13:51 Vision and Spatial Awareness: The Athletic Edge That Translates • 00:16:07 Treating Life Like Sports: Coaches, Seasons, and Feedback • 00:17:40 Greatness 101: The Essential Curriculum • 00:18:53 Emotional Regulation: Healing Childhood Wounds • 00:22:13 Gratitude and Generosity: The Gateway to Flourishing • 00:25:15 The Money Book Nobody Else Wrote • 00:26:48 Money Wounds and Money Stories • 00:29:22 If Money Walked Through the Door: The Revealing Exercise • 00:31:09 Growing Up With Money: Downplaying Success to Fit In • 00:36:15 Why We Attach So Much Emotion to Money • 00:37:28 Money and Self-Worth: The Dangerous Connection • 00:38:52 Mark's Healthy Relationship With Money • 00:40:49 Broke and Happy vs Rich and Miserable: The Four Quadrants • 00:41:30 Living on a Couch: From Defeated to Empowered • 00:44:44 Success Without Peace: Fighting Everyone at 30 • 00:46:07 Mark's Journey: From Friend's Couch to Subtle Art Success • 00:47:11 Broke But Optimistic: Learning Skills and Building Momentum • 00:48:57 When Massive Success Breaks Your Brain • 00:50:56 The Psychological Adjustment to Sudden Wealth • 00:52:25 When Friends and Family Get Weird About Your Money • 00:54:08 The Generosity Paradox: When Giving Backfires • 00:56:01 Quality of Life Equals Quality of Relationships • 00:57:58 Getting Married: Doing Everything Opposite • 00:59:06 Courageous Conversations and Early Therapy • 01:01:05 The No Upset Agreement: Communicating Without Fighting • 01:02:17 Have Serious Conversations Sooner in Relationships • 01:03:59 The Olympic Dream: A 40-Year Journey • 01:06:53 Showing Up Uninvited: The First Handball Practice • 01:08:37 The Dream That Died and Came Back to Life • 01:09:54 Paris 2024: Reactivating the Fire • 01:10:39 Three and a Half Years to Go: The Marathon Begins • 01:12:53 Ambitious Goals That Seem Slightly Unhinged ⇨ Sign up for my newsletter, Your Next Breakthrough. It will help make you a less awful person: https://markmanson.net/breakthrough ⇨ Get clarity on what actually matters. Try Purpose, Mark's AI mentor app that learns your patterns, challenges your blind spots, and helps you take action. Get started at https://bit.ly/4w46FMH FOLLOW MARK Mark's IG: https://www.instagram.com/markmanson Solved IG: https://www.instagram.com/solvedpodcast/ Twitter: https://x.com/markmanson LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markmanson/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@IAmMarkManson Theme Song: Icarus Lives by @Periphery , used with permission from Periphery.

## Transcript

[0:00] Lewis Howes, welcome to the show, man. My man, thanks for having me. Dude, a podcasting legend. You know, 12 years. Every week for 12 years I've done a podcast. Every week? I haven't recorded every week, but I've posted every week for 12 years. How many episodes now?
[0:16] I 1700 1800 somewhere. Yeah, dude, I know. I'm like sleepy just hearing that number. I'm like, I need a vacation just from just from what you just said. Blog posts have you written? Yeah, yeah. Thousand, right? Yeah, I mean hundreds, but but it's it's cool having you here. You've been people don't know this behind the scenes. You've been a huge supporter of mine starting this show.
[0:40] I appreciate like you reached out. You were super kind. Very helpful. Yeah, man. I really appreciate that. My pleasure, man. Yeah. So I'm curious. You've interviewed, I guess, over a thousand experts at this point. Yeah. Right. High performers, top achievers. I'm curious. I don't know if you still do this, but for a long time, I think the first two times I was on your show, you ask everybody what their definition of greatness is.
[1:03] Uh, I'm curious what, how has your definition of greatness changed and evolved over the years? You've been doing this 12 years. What was it when you started and what is it today? I think when it started, I can't remember what exactly it was, but I, I remember who I was back then. And I think it was more like just being number one, being the best and being number one at whatever you do. I thought that was greatness to me, which is like, you have to go after your thing, be the top of what you can be.
[1:31] take your talents to the farthest and be number one and be the best. And I don't think that's wrong. I think it's just evolved with that.
[1:39] And I think we should be developing our unique talents and gifts to pursue, you know, we should pursue our dreams and develop our unique talents and gifts in that pursuit. And I think it's also making the maximum impact on the people around us. And if that's millions of people, great. If that's five people, great. It's like, how can we take our talents to pursue the thing we're called to do?
[2:02] which I'm sure you're going to ask me what that next calling is for me right now in the future. And how do we take it as far as we can, but in that journey, make an impact on the people around us in the best possible way? That, for me, is like my current definition. Yeah. What's interesting about that is the whole concept of being number one, right? It's like being number one.
[2:23] Among what? Like, what is the, you know, what's the circle that you're drawing and putting yourself in and deciding your number? Like, it's a very arbitrary kind of metric. And it's almost like, I do think when we're younger, we kind of just look at kind of maybe traditional societal measurements of the best or number one or the top achievements. And I guess as you get older, you start learning that like, hey, you get to define for yourself. Like, what are you measuring yourself by? What are you going to be great at?
[2:52] What are you going to be number one at? Yeah. For me, it was like, okay, how can I be the best in sports? And then that was done. How can I be the best in my industry of business or whatever, podcasting or whatever it might be? And that energy is just very competitive versus collaborative. Yeah. And I learned around the time of launching the show that I was just like, oh, I need to shift it from trying to win to trying to get everyone around me to win with me.
[3:17] Yeah. And if I can have that energy, it's just much more enjoyable. And we were talking about, you know, someone else before we started the recording, it's like seeing other people thrive for me is exciting because it shows me, Oh, maybe I could get there as well. One day if they could do it, maybe I could do it. And it doesn't mean,
[3:35] I'm less than if someone else is greater than in this moment or having a different type of moment or selling better or performing better. It just means there's a lot of space for everyone. Yeah. And everyone can have a moment or a season. And that's great. Do you struggle with that sometimes? That competitive? I used to. Yeah. I used to feel more like insecure and jealous. I was like, oh, they have something I don't have or they're better than me in something. So how do I get better? Yeah.
[4:00] And now I'm just like, how do I be my best? How do I stick to my mission and be better every day? I mean, and really...
[4:09] Me helping others grow, like me reaching out to you and be like, Hey, how can I help you have a great podcast and launch a show and be, be massive. It doesn't pull back from me also being successful or making money. And again, the more collaborative I can be, I've found that that kind of mastermind principle or community principle really has supported me in return.
[4:31] In times when I'm struggling or when I'm having a moment, it's like I'm coming on your show and I've got a book coming out. It's like if I didn't invest in you being successful in some way, maybe you wouldn't have been interested to support me in return. And I think just having that mindset in general is a more enjoyable way to live. Yeah.
[4:49] I definitely agree with that. And I'm a very competitive person as well. And I look at... I look at... You look at metrics and you want to be number one. Oh, yeah. Of course. Of course. Yeah. But I do look at my younger self and I used to... I had a lot of... I used to have a lot of competitiveness in like my friendships. Uh-huh. And I think a lot of guys, young men do that. And it's something that...
[5:12] Now, as an older man, like, I look back and I'm like, that was so stupid. Like, it was so... Because it created a lot of unnecessary conflict and tension. It created a lot of jealousy, you know? Resentment on both sides, you know? And it feels completely unnecessary. I'm curious, like, was there any specific...
[5:31] Experience or occurrence that like shifted that for you or was it like a very gradual process over time? Oh, man I think it's probably multiple instances over time. It's more of a feeling Mm-hmm. I know I know this may not be something you like talking about but it's more of like an energy I just felt like
[5:48] Why am I always in judgment? Why am I always feeling less than? Why am I always doubt it? Why am I always in competition with other people over the years? And I was in a place of scarcity and lack. Even though I was driven to succeed or I was driven to accomplish,
[6:03] If I'm in comparison and I'm comparing myself to someone else's success, it means I'm not there yet or I'm not as good as them. Right. And when it's coming from a place of jealousy or insecurity rather than celebration of that person, then again, it's just an energy that doesn't feel good. Yeah. It feels just like a lower energy. And I want to have a higher energy when I'm doing things. Yeah. So it's a constant reminder even today. It's like we have friends that are thriving right now, bigger than what we're doing at this moment.
[6:32] And I have to constantly say like, good for them. I'm excited for them. Even if I have to fake it sometimes, it's like, yeah, I'm excited for them. Do I wish I could be there? Sure. It's like, of course I wish I was maybe further ahead or having that type of opportunity, but like good for them. And here's something that I feel like I've started to learn really in the last four years. It's like, there's not many people who have done what you've done for a long time, who've written content,
[6:55] and been successful as an author and a writer for a decade plus, or however long it's been. There's not many people in the podcasting world for 12 years. Right. And I'm starting to think more of, you know, in eight more years, 20 years, can I make this enjoyable, fun, continue to grow, and thrive for the next eight years? Obviously evolve and innovate, but
[7:19] Not many people are going to be able to do that for a long time. And I'm starting to look at that more as a metric for me of I'm innovating, I'm growing, I'm making a difference and an impact. I'm able to build my business. Maybe there's a moment where things just really explode in a bigger way. Maybe not.
[7:36] But as long as I'm really enjoying it and not letting it stress me out constantly, I feel like that's a big win because it is an energy. We want to feel light. We want to feel free. We want to feel expansive, abundant. We want to feel loved, all these different things. And if I'm just chasing to be number one or I'm feeling separate because I'm lacking what someone else has, then.
[7:57] That doesn't feel good. Yeah. Well, we were talking before we went live. I mean, you're doing this book launch, right? And like I've been through it. You've been through it. Like a typical book launch, it's just this wall to wall. You're doing 20 interviews a day, week after week. Exhausting. You're in like five different cities. You're doing events. You're going on TV. Like it's absolutely exhausting. You just wear yourself to the bone. And you said you're like, I'm not doing that this time. I'm doing like five to 10 interviews.
[8:27] I'm good. And I like, it's funny. Cause I, when you said that I immediately, I was like, I admire that. Like I know, cause I know how hard it is to turn down all those opportunities. But I think that is, it is, it's a demonstration of like that reprioritization away from like, cause you could, you could just like murder yourself over the next three weeks, try to make this thing number one everywhere, you know? And
[8:54] burn yourself out, you know, and like just really drain all your energy, not be present when you come home, not be present with your team, with your, with your wife. Like I'm not saying it's bad, not, it's bad to go all out. Like it's good to be able to go all out. Like sometimes I, sometimes I tell my wife, I'm like, I like knowing that I can go balls to the wall if I have to, but like, I don't want to live there.
[9:17] Yeah, and there's a price you pay for that too. I mean, again, it's all seasonal. It's like, maybe it was 10 years ago, it was my first book, I'd be like, I have to do everything I can. And if I'm not married and I'm single, and it's like, I can do it, and I don't care what happens to my body. But my mission is to try to be as healthy as possible right now during everything, what I'm doing. And so it's like, okay, I've gotta really be, I have to make better decisions on what I'm gonna give my energy to, when I'm gonna do interviews. Whereas before, two years ago, I did a book launch,
[9:46] And I think I did 63 interviews within three months. And I was exhausted. I gained like 20 pounds. I was just burnt out. And it didn't see the results in my mind that I thought I would do. So I was like, okay, I could kill myself trying to get extreme results.
[10:01] It got good results, but it didn't get what I thought it would get. So what's the point of doing that again? If I'm me killing myself again for three months, will it give me the results I want? I don't know. And is it worth losing my health to get those results? Right. At this season, it's not anymore. Yeah. Yeah. For just the, you know, 20% more book sales, 10% more book sales in the first month or whatever. I want to go back really quick.
[10:24] because a thought occurred to me when you were, you were talking about kind of how it was like a slow mindset shift over time of just like how that competitiveness and comparison made you feel worse, like gave you a worse energy. I, it struck me as you were talking, I'm like, it's funny that like you built your show is the school of greatness. Like the whole concept around it is you find the top performers in each area of life in each field. And so what, I guess one thing I never considered is that,
[10:54] the experience of doing your show is that you are constantly putting yourself in front of the person who's number one at something. Yeah. They're all better than me. Yeah. They're all like greater than me at everything. So if you are comparing yourself, you're going to quickly drive yourself crazy. So it's almost like I kind of have this therapy or this theory that, uh, that, uh,
[11:14] people who create media or content, like we create our own therapy. Yes. Like we create the advice that we actually need ourselves. And I just found it interesting while you were talking. I'm like, it's funny. He kind of created the show. He created the show that like... I need it the most. Yeah. I need it the most. Yeah. And again, I was extremely competitive in sports and I tried to be competitive in business, but you interview someone who's making more than you, it's like, oh, okay, I'm nobody compared to this person. So it's like quickly I learned like...
[11:44] I was like, how do I get there as fast as possible in all these different places in the first few years? Yeah. I was like, I will never be able to do that. And I just need to continue to be a student and just try to improve a little bit every day in the areas to feel more whole as a human being. And it might sound a little lame or something, but I think a lot of us want to feel peace. Yeah. We want to feel wholeness. We want to feel like we are enough. Yeah.
[12:07] in whatever, you know, in our own world, we want to feel whole. And for most of my life, I felt broken. I felt wounded and I felt triggered and I was driven to succeed, to feel more whole. The success didn't create wholeness.
[12:25] So about 10 to 12 years ago, I started on a healing journey to figure out how do I create that wholeness within me? And that's kind of what the show has been, my own therapy. Yeah. Well, and it's interesting too because your background, sports, business, it's like very...
[12:41] It's very masculine. Masculine. It's very like. Success. Crush, dominate. Competition. You're actually like, you're a very sensitive, emotionally aware guy who like, and like a lot of the guests and the content on your show, like the last few years, it's like.
[12:58] It's a lot of, it's more relationship stuff. It's more emotional stuff. It's more like developing maturity and, and, and, uh, it, it's funny. It is, it's, it is almost like. It's what I lacked for most of my life. You know, it's like I was one mode. It's like win, achieve goals, succeed, get girls. It was like, that's the mindset of like some young men, right? It was like, but when you have all those things or when you're accomplishing those things at a certain level or whatever. Yeah.
[13:26] And you realize, oh, this isn't the answer to creating fulfillment or wholeness or self-love or peace. I was just like, oh, man, all the money that I was making wasn't making me feel peaceful. So if that's not the entire answer, what is the answer? And that's the journey. So your background is in sports and athletics, which we've alluded to.
[13:51] We've now we've talked about what doesn't transfer over like that, that kind of sports competitive mentality doesn't translate over into everyday life. Maybe so effectively. I'm curious, what did you learn in sports and athletics that has translated over into life? Vision. Yeah. Vision was the thing that I think I was.
[14:11] Either given the gift or developed the gift over years of playing sports. And I don't know if you had this playing jazz guitar or whatever, if that was something you had or you had some other creative element from that, the ability to improvise what was coming next while you're playing. Although I think you said like your first month at Berkeley, you were like, oh, I give up because –
[14:32] You were comparing yourself to like the average guitar player there who was just dominating you. I made it six whole months. Six months. Basically. A semester and a half or something. Yeah, exactly. But for me, I was never the most talented when I was in kind of middle school and high school. Not until I got into like my later years in high school where I became more of like the all-star on the team.
[14:57] But early on, I just had a lot of failure in sports, but I was willing to just train all day long. And where I lacked an athletic ability, I was able to create spacing and awareness on the field, on the court, whatever it might be, and see where the ball needed to be or where I needed to be. And so I lacked the speed and the jumping capabilities, but I was able to see what was going to come next.
[15:23] And was that something you practiced or. It was, it was, I don't even know how it happened. I think it was just because I lacked the other skills that certain guys had of like natural speed and natural jumping. I had to find a way around to make up that space. Gotcha. To save that time where they could excel in speed or strength. Yeah.
[15:42] And that ability to almost see things of the peripheral and have patience allowed me to excel because I would just always find a way to get the ball. I'd always be in the right spot. I'd always just knew where it was going to be. And a lot of people ask me, like, how did you excel quickly on my kind of business path when I first got started in my, I guess, mid to late 20s?
[16:07] And everyone was like, how did you get here so quickly? And all I did after sports was done was I said, I don't know anything else about life except for how to relate it to sports.
[16:18] I don't know how to make money. I don't know about relationships. I don't know about any of this stuff, but I know I need to find a coach because the greatest athletes, they hire better coaches after they win the championship and they find more specialists to support them to excelling and maintaining that championship level. So I was like, I just need to find a coach who's already done it before in life. And I need to think of life as seasons.
[16:42] of like the first season I got to figure out a way to get off my sister's couch. Okay, what do I need to do in these three months? And then I just started breaking it down in seasons like a sport and asking the coach to guide me on how to get there.
[16:54] What I was really good at was vision. I knew where I wanted to go, and I was really effective at working extremely hard daily until I accomplished the goals and receiving feedback from the coach. And that's what I did as an athlete. I was coachable. I could receive feedback. And I would just, you tell me to do something for three hours a day, I'm doing it. Okay. Tell me to do it for how long I'll do it. Yeah. And I think that consistency, again...
[17:19] I've been doing the podcast for 12 years and it's like, I'm just going to keep showing up. As long as I'm enjoying it and I feel like I'm improving, I'll keep showing up. Yeah. It's like, it's just this like old school. It is. Work ethic. It is. Yeah. I think I got that from sports. Yeah. So with everything that you've learned and experienced, if you were to create like a
[17:40] greatness 101 curriculum like what are what are the first lessons what are the what are like the basic tenets of like okay you want to you you want to achieve something more in your life whatever it is whether it's sports art business whatever what are like the first three or four things you have to have i don't know what order this goes in but the first one goes back into having a
[18:08] A mentor that has a model that you would like to mimic. So a mentor who's already done something that you see, oh, I want to get to this place and finding someone who's got some type of a model to getting there. So if there was a young person that said, oh, I want to be an author and I want to write and I want to do really influential writing, then they can look to you as a mentor, whether they can connect with you personally or just see your content online or this podcast, because you have a model that they can follow and they can start to mimic from where you started to where you are.
[18:38] That'd be one is like really finding good coaches, teachers, mentors, and some people don't have that in their parents. So you can find that in other ways. I don't know if you read a lot of books growing up and you kind of had that mentorship through books to reading or if you had great teachers coaching you.
[18:53] But for me, I had great coaches, and I would not be where I'm at without those coaches. So I think find those the best way you can, and if you can't, then find the books and the podcasts like this. The second element of greatness for me would be emotional regulation, because it's something I lacked for most of my life. I was very reactive when I was triggered. I had a lot of wounds from my childhood, psychologically, emotionally, physically, and anytime someone poked on the wounds,
[19:23] I would react and it's because the wound never healed for me. Yeah. So I didn't know how to regulate those emotions and I felt like I needed to defend myself, protect myself, fight back, whatever it might be.
[19:37] And I think emotional regulation, for me, the learning, the art of it, is really learning how to have courage to create boundaries instead of reacting and letting someone else have power over you. Yeah. And also really learning to look at your past and create meaning from these wounds or the stresses or the traumas that we've had and being okay at looking at them for a period of time
[20:00] processing them, forgiving yourself, forgiving someone else, however that looks for you, and then integrating the healing lessons so you can feel more peaceful in your nervous system. My nervous system was never calm. It was always like hypersensitive. Yeah. And I was easily triggered. I wanted to please everyone and...
[20:20] Uh, but I felt taken advantage of and abused by them. Um, and it all stemmed from childhood traumas that I never healed. So I felt very unsafe inside of me. And it wasn't until I was able to process these things and create better emotional regulation.
[20:37] where I felt, oh, I'm good with me. I'm calm. And was that through therapy, meditation? It was through all of it. It was through all of it. Everything, all of it. And it's been a journey. It wasn't like, oh, I just did a few sessions and I'm good. It was a journey. And with every new level of my life of financial success, different relationships, marriage, breakups, whatever it might be, I had to learn how to regulate at different levels as well, different seasons.
[21:07] Yeah. And it comes back and bites you in the ass in new ways, man. It's like, and so new levels create new devils. I think that's a phrase. It's like, so it's learning how to use the tools that I've learned in a previous season that applied to the current season.
[21:22] of emotional regulation. And you just see, you know, you just see so many people get to the top and then fall because of their emotions. Yeah. Their stresses or their lack of emotional regulation. So that'd be the second thing, really having great coaches, mentors, teachers, whatever you want to call it, therapists, doesn't matter. Someone that can mentor you in some way and give you tools to support you in getting where you want to be and being able to receive feedback. Emotional regulation, I think, is,
[21:49] Something I wish I would have learned when I was five, 10, 15, 30, 40. It's like I'm going to be 42 next week. Better late than never. And it's a constant process of learning how to regulate my emotions. Then I would think the next element of greatness is, which is the first habit in the book that I have, which is the mindset habit. And I really believe that.
[22:13] gratitude and generosity is the gateway to abundance. And it's the gateway to a flourishing life and a more abundant fulfilling life. And I know you don't like the word abundance and manifest and all these things. You repel when someone says those words, you're like, ugh, you like ick with that. I understand that. So I think gratitude and being a generous human being
[22:35] is the ingredients for, you know, just a flourishing, prosperous life. Yeah. A rich life. And for me, most people say, well, once I have...
[22:51] the success or the money, then I'll be giving and then I'll be generous. Then I'll be grateful that I have it. But I think we really have to say, okay, I have nothing. How can I be grateful for where I'm at and the little wins every single day, the little moments that are little victories. And how can I be generous? If it's not with money, how can I be generous with my time, my attention, my presence, my curiosity with a human being? Um, um,
[23:18] my resources, my ability to connect people, my ability to give information freely, whatever it might be. And I think that's really the key to greatness. Well, the irony with what you just said, too, because I've run into the same thing, is people, they say, well, I don't have anything right now, so how can I be generous? Why should I help other people? Right.
[23:40] It kind of, and they think like, well, once I'm successful, once I have abundance, then I'll be generous with people. But it kind of works the other way around. Like when you're generous with people.
[23:50] they want to support you and they want to give you opportunities and they want to help you along your path. And, uh, I, I remember this, I try to remember, it was like a marketing seminar I saw once, I think it was Dan Kennedy years and years and years ago. And he was saying, he was like, everybody wants to convince a million people to give them a dollar. And he's like, but what you
[24:12] million people a hundred dollars worth of value for free and then ask you know when then they will be compelled to give you a dollar without you even asking right so true and it's just like it's like leading with the giving hand um and i i've like i've just found that to be true in so many walks of life whether it's business relationships um
[24:34] You know, pursuing a skill or a hobby, any pursuit that involves like networking and relationships in any way. Like it's just be helpful. Generosity, man. Be useful. Is the key. And I just think that will, it's more sustainable energy long term. You might be able to be like taking energy and get to a certain level at one point, but then it's like.
[24:54] You burn a lot of relationships. People are like, ah, don't work with that guy or that gal. And it's not sustainable long term. So I think greatness is something that you can sustain for a long time. And you've got to be grateful and generous. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the new book. You mentioned it briefly. I was...
[25:15] very interested and impressed. I thought you'd say skeptical because you know... No, no. It's actually really cool. Like I'm glad somebody... Because there's so many money books out there. Yes. And you took an angle that I have not seen anybody else take, right? Which is like...
[25:32] There's there are no charts and tables. There's like very little math in here. There's no like interest rates. And here's no, it's not an investing book. Here's the best credit card to get. Like it's it is all about the mindsets and emotions and attitudes and beliefs that we have around money and how they sabotage us and how to like prevent them from sabotaging us. So the first thing I'm just curious, what inspired it? Like, where did this come from? Well, of of at the time, you know, nine, 10 years of doing the podcast, I'm
[26:02] all the conversations I had around money. And as I started, and I stopped asking people like, how do you make money? And how do you manage your emotions around money? And what is the energy, the beliefs, the mindset around how to create an abundant life, with or without money?
[26:18] those episodes just really kind of took off. So I was like, oh, people are really struggling around money. Money conversations are one of the biggest reasons why people get divorced or break up in relationships. People feel like they attach their self-worth to their net worth. So if you don't have anything, you feel like you're not worthy. You feel like you're not valuable. So why is that? And I also just was very confused around money as a kid. I didn't understand it. I didn't know how to make it. I didn't think I was talented enough that someone would give me money. It's very confusing.
[26:48] And I wasn't taught this in school. Like no one taught me how to manage your emotions around money. And as you know, our beliefs influence our behaviors. And the more we think and feel about something, we usually act in alignment with that way of thinking. And then we get the results in our life. As I started to make money in my late 20s and 30s,
[27:10] I just started to reflect and I was like, oh, okay. I was a extreme saver. I wouldn't spend it because I was afraid to go broke and be on my sister's couch again. So I would work really hard, save all this money. It was in the bank and I would still take buses, Greyhound buses across the country and not buy a plane ticket. And then when I would buy a plane ticket, I would get like the cheapest seat with three connections, middle, middle row. Like four.
[27:38] I was like, how can I save, save, save? Cause I don't want to go back and be broke again. Yeah. Yeah. So I had millions, but I was living in scarcity and I felt anxious and stressed about money. And I was always like, is someone trying to rip me off when I'm spending someone for a consultant? Are they really charging me the right fair price? I was just like anxious around it.
[28:00] And I wanted to learn the skills for me and how to feel more peaceful around money. And again, I was like, I had money, but I felt scarce. That's not a rich life to me. That's not a abundant life. That's not a beautiful life. It was stressful. Money created more problems for me. It, it solves certain problems, but it made me feel more anxious and stressed at the same time.
[28:23] And even with the money, I wasn't taking care of myself or like even just getting a normal seat on a airplane so that I wasn't breaking my back, you know, on this like cramped airplane or whatever. It's like I wasn't willing to invest in things to add value to me because I was afraid of going broke.
[28:41] And it took me years to kind of heal that mindset and kind of retrain my mindset to thinking, okay, it's okay to spend on certain things. And how can I feel safe spending and investing in me or things that are gonna bring me more joy? I'm working so hard to make this money.
[28:58] but I'm not investing in it to make myself feel better. Why? So it's just like looking at my own beliefs and seeing where that came from. And I realized I had a lot of money wounds that created my money story. And as I started asking people like, what's your money story? What's your money wounds? People really didn't understand what I was talking about. And so I said, okay, let's do an example right now. Mark, imagine, uh,
[29:22] Um, the idea of money is represented in a person and a person who is money walks through the door right now and they represent money. They are money to you. The thoughts, the feelings, the emotions around money, they walk in the door. What's the first thing you think or feel if money walked in the door right now? The first word that came to mind was douchebag. Yeah.
[29:45] interesting why i think a big part of this is my upbringing you know uh i i grew up in texas very um you know suburbs quasi-rural like the the area that i grew up in and then also kind of the you know my mom's from the midwest my dad's from texas like the attitude towards money where i grew up is very much it's it's you you stay humble you try not to stick out like you're
[30:14] You know, if you drive a fancy car or have a fancy watch like, oh, you think you're better than us, huh? You know, like it's very much it's people are always kind of cutting each other down. And people who do have money are you kind of playing it down because you don't want to stand out too much. So that's me too. And yeah, that was me for a long time. Yeah. And I definitely feel like I've kind of personally gotten away from that to a certain extent.
[30:40] Not completely, but to a certain extent. But it's funny, because I definitely see it in my family. When I go home and I see family and friends, there's still very much that vibe around. Interesting. And what were some of the conversations or some of the things you heard about money growing up? Some people hear like, oh, money doesn't grow on trees. Or maybe they just heard their parents fighting about money. Or was there anything that you heard? Rich people are always like, they did something wrong to make their money. They hurt people to make money. Did you hear anything?
[31:09] So my dad did pretty well for himself. Like we weren't rich, but like we were upper middle class. Like money was never a problem in my family. You know, we went to good schools. We had food. Like we lived in a nice house. Like parents had two nice cars, like all that stuff. So money was never a problem in our family. I actually, the problem, the discussions and the stress around money in my family was actually like,
[31:33] downplaying how much we had because I think in the neighborhood I grew up in we had some of the most money in the neighborhood right and so it was trying to not be too like highbrow around everyone exactly because people like I said where I grew up people judge you for that right um you know I would I remember when I was a kid um I would invite a friend over from school and like their parents would bring them and you know the parent would kind of look at the house and be like wow wow
[32:02] what do you do for work? You know, like it was just, but kind of in a sneering judgmental way. And, uh, I definitely. The end of like that got indoctrinated into me, especially, you know, growing up in Texas too, like people talk tons of shit about New Yorkers and Californians and like, Oh, or something. Yeah. Yeah. Like don't be one of those East coasters. Who's like superficial or snobby. Yeah. Too, you know, don't get too big for your britches, like stuff like that. Like interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
[32:29] that we fear people's judgments of how big we can get or how much wealth we can create, and therefore we want to downplay it in some ways unconsciously or maybe consciously of like, oh, we don't want to offend anyone or we want to look too good for ourselves or whatever it might be. And that's just interesting. And what I want everyone listening or watching to think about is just if money walked in the door, how would you initially react? And that was your initial reaction. What a douchebag, right? It was like...
[32:57] And maybe it was kind of a little joke in there, but it's like, that was your initial reaction. That was the honest gut reaction. Yeah. You weren't like, oh, I'd give it a big hug and welcome in and come sit down next to us. You know, it's like, oh, you'd kind of be like, get out of here. Yeah. What an idiot. Yeah. You'd be thinking that way. So I want everyone to think about that and reflect on it. And if you're watching on YouTube, leave a comment of what money represents to you. Look at this, guys. This is a pro at work. Share a comment. Yeah.
[33:23] And Shay, if money walked in the door, what's your initial response? Leave a comment, a detailed comment on that. Dude, I love this. And also- It's like milk the engagement, Lewis. Let's go. I want everyone to be reflecting on this because here you're going to get a lot of value seeing everyone else's comment on how other people think about money. And I'll just share one story that I asked someone close to me who's in their late 20s. So I guess that's Gen Z. I don't know what that is, but is that Gen Z if you're like 27, 28? Yeah.
[33:52] And I said, if you're at a restaurant and money walks in the door, what do you do? And they said, I would run to the bar and hide. And then I would talk about money behind its back and gossip about it and say nasty things about it. Then when it came up to, if it came up to me, I would act like I was his friend. It'd be nice and polite. Then I would use it and abuse it to get what I wanted. And if it ever reached out to me, I would ghost it.
[34:19] And I was like, holy cow, that seems like a very unhealthy relationship with money. And they were like, I know it is. And they were very honest and I appreciate it. And I want everyone to be honest with what is your relationship with money like? If you could make it a person or an idea, how does it make you feel in your nervous system, in your mind, in your body? Do you feel safe with money?
[34:42] Do you feel if someone gave you a gift mark if someone said here's five dollars? I want you to have this how would that make you feel versus if someone said here's five million dollars as a gift I want you to have this right and just notice like your eyebrows went up when you said five males. I just notice
[34:58] Can you receive gifts from people? Can you receive gifts from his friend and family or strangers? Or do you feel like, no, I can never take this? Just notice your reaction. Are you good at giving gifts or do you feel like I can't give my money away because then I'll never get it back? Do you hold on to money tightly? Are you relaxed with it and it can come and go freely because you have a healthy relationship with it? There's not a right or wrong, good or bad here. It's just to notice what is your relationship.
[35:26] Do you feel you have a rich or abundant life emotionally with your relationship with money? If not, then it's time to go to money therapy, address some of your money wounds. Again, some of these words people may be like freaking out about, but it's like just to notice them. Yeah. Notice these stories like you talked about and say, how can I just start to mend or heal some of these and start expanding my ability to give and receive more? Yeah.
[35:53] Well, I do. I love this conversation because in my experience and both and also with myself in my own life, but also just with people I've been around, I generally find that people tend to either have irrationally positive associations with money or irrationally negative associations. Like nobody seems to have just kind of a neutral like, yeah, money's cool. Yeah, yeah. No one does. Nobody does. Yeah, it's like a.
[36:15] beautiful relationship yeah yeah yeah it's everybody either thinks that money is going to solve all their problems and their life would be so amazing if they just you know had x x amount of dollars and then or they think that money is like the root of all evil it's causing all the issues in their life that it's people rich people are assholes and scumbags and cheating everybody and there's no kind of like sane middle ground uh and it's it's so weird to me like i i
[36:41] I actually, I wonder why do we attach so much emotion to money? I mean, that's what I'm trying to figure out an answer. Yeah. I think because of the wounds around it and the power that it gives people. When you have money, you feel more powerful. When you have less money, you feel less powerful. And no one wants to feel disempowered. They don't want to feel like they're out of control. They want to feel in control.
[37:05] Money and sex are like the two biggest drivers in life. Yeah. It's the thing we drive to have more of until we can regulate our emotions and feel like, okay, I can have a healthy amount of sex. Yeah. Hopefully with one person, because that's going to be a better dynamic, hopefully. Fewer headaches. Fewer headaches, less stress. Less trauma. Better spiritual alignment, all these different things. Yeah. And hopefully I can have a healthy relationship with money.
[37:28] Where money doesn't make me feel powerful by itself, because if it does, if I lose money or if I give money or if I spend money, I feel less powerful in certain ways. Or if it's my bank account is going down, then my self-worth is going down. And I think it's attaching those things with our identity with how much money we have or don't have.
[37:46] or how much debt we might have. And most of the country is in some type of debt. So people feel anxious. They feel stressed around it. And again, my goal is to see how can I help people and help myself feel more peace in every area of life. Money is just one of the biggest charges for people.
[38:06] And it, it can hurt a lot of people, but it can also help you if you have a healthy relationship. So again, I want everyone to ask themselves, if money was a person, how would you react in that? And also another, another question you could answer, uh, in the comments and you can answer it too, is leave a second comment. Just as simple. It's all just about assessing where we're at and saying, does this support me? Yeah. And feeling good.
[38:31] You want to call it abundant, prosperous, wealthy. It's like, do I feel good? On a scale of one to 10, Mark, 10 being the most abundant, peaceful, and one being the most scarce and stressed out. Where are you on the one to 10 scale with your relationship with money? So money is one of the few things...
[38:52] I actually feel like I've always been very good with, like in both emotionally and just managing finances. I actually give a lot of credit to my dad. We could talk about that in a bit if you want. I would say eight or nine, eight or nine. I very rarely stress about money. I also, I think I'm very realistic about it. I don't expect it really to solve any of my major problems in my life. Do you have any triggers around money?
[39:19] When someone, are you able to receive gifts well? And do you feel like you're a generous person with your money? Do you feel when you have to spend money on taxes, are you like, this is bullshit and I fucked this shit? Or are you like, okay, I see it for what it is and it's okay. And is there any area of money where you get stressed out about?
[39:40] Honestly, I could probably use, I could probably be a little bit more anxious around money. Like I'm very- You're too generous. You're too free. I am very generous, which I'm actually okay with that. But I'm very comfortable with risk. Uh-huh.
[39:56] So it actually, it's like, you know, I've had investments in the past. It's hurt you in the past. Oh, yeah. Like, I've had investments in the past or, you know, maybe an errant trip to Vegas that I'm like, you know, this should bother me a lot more than it does. But it doesn't. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
[40:13] I think that's pretty healthy as long as you're able to not risk so much of it. And you're just like, hey, this is okay because I know money is going to come back to me and I've done a good job with it. As long as it's not an addiction or a compulsion or anything, which it's not. But, yeah, I mean it's – my parents, they got a lot of things right and they got a lot of things wrong like most parents. But like –
[40:32] One of the things they really nailed was the money thing. That's great. And I'm extremely grateful for that. Well, so there was a part in your book that stood out to me, and it was something I related to a lot. And I actually thought it would be a fun exercise for us to kind of go through and discuss...
[40:49] You know why each of these things were true for us at different points. So you had a section and you kind of just said it in passing. I think it was in like the second or third chapter. But you said like there were times in your life where you were broke and happy, where you're broke and miserable, where you were rich and happy and rich and miserable. Yes. And I've had all four of those experiences as well. Yes. Yes.
[41:10] I read that and I was like, 100%, 100%. And I was actually, it made me kind of wonder, I'm like, so what was it in each of those instances? So let's start with broke and happy. When were you broke and happy? And why were you happy? I was on my sister's couch for a year and a half after playing arena football. And for the first six months,
[41:30] I was, I had a broken wrist, so I was in a cast and I was really kind of just defeated because my identity was broken. For so long, I wanted to pursue this dream. I got to do it, but then it's over. And now I'm like, well, who am I? What is my value? What's my purpose? Why am I here? So I was in that kind of state of sadness, depression, whatever you want to call it, just down on myself. I didn't have any money. I had, I don't know, about 20 something grand in college debt. I didn't have a college degree yet.
[41:58] It was at the height of the housing crisis of 2008, 2009. And I wasn't able to find a job. So it was just like everything felt like it was against me. And I was believing that everything was against me and I have no power. I'm powerless. That's when I felt I'm poor and I'm miserable. Yes.
[42:18] It's when I started to say to myself, OK, I can stay here in this kind of self-loathing state of mind, or I can create a game plan and I can start to say, how can I just see improvement? It's not going to be a millionaire overnight. I'm not going to get off my sister's couch right away. But what are the things that I'm most afraid of?
[42:38] And I made a list of my biggest fears. And how can I start feeling more powerful by overcoming them and developing those skills? Published speaking was one of them. Reading and writing was one of them. Salsa dancing was a fear. All these different things I had fears around. And so I found coaches in each area of those, you know, speaking, writing, reading, salsa dancing, and they all guided me on how to overcome it.
[43:06] I felt a lot of joy within probably three or four months. The beginning part of that, I was terrified and it was miserable because I really sucked at all of it. And I was just embarrassing myself in front of people trying these things. So it was very disencouraging in the beginning stages of overcoming fears. But within three to four months, I was like, oh, I'm getting progress. I'm seeing that I'm not as, I'm still horrible. Yeah. I'm just not as bad. Yeah. Yeah.
[43:32] And it was like, once I started to figure things out and got some momentum in all these areas, I was like, man, I can do anything. I was like, I'm not great yet, but it's like, wow, if I could do even just this much, what else could I do? And that really made me feel excited about life and probably that I've never felt before. The tail end of my sister's couch...
[43:53] I was salsa dancing three, four times a night around Columbus, Ohio. I was speaking at Toastmasters every single week and I had a coach that was guiding me to get better and I could see my growth. I was getting great feedback and I was starting to write a book.
[44:09] from another mentor that was helping me write my first book around LinkedIn actually. And it was just like, oh, I'm conquering the world, even though I was still beginner at these things. And no one really knew who I was and I wasn't making really any money. But I was like, man, I can do anything. And that felt very empowering. So I felt like I'm broke,
[44:28] but I'm like taking over the world. And that was very empowering. And then the time when I was, you know, making money, but unhappy was when all my relationships were falling apart around me, probably around 30 years old, about 12 years ago.
[44:44] And I had millions in the bank. I had success. I had like a personal brand. I had these things. But my business relationship was falling apart. My girlfriend, that relationship was falling apart. And I was going and playing basketball a lot in West Hollywood nearby. And I was just getting in fights all the time. Like I was so easily triggered. Yeah. Like someone could say anything or like elbow me. And I just wanted to fight people. Wow. Wow.
[45:10] And I was like, what is wrong with me? So all these things started happening. And I was like, I should be really happy, but I'm not. And that's when I started the podcast. That's when I started going to therapy, workshops. And I was like, oh, I need to work on finding joy again and healing these things that are triggering me.
[45:27] And that's where I feel like I'm now at a place where I've made money and I feel peaceful as well. So it's been a journey of the last 15, 20 years. It's interesting because it sounds like the transition when you were broke, it was actually more about lack of agency to agency. It's like that feeling of progress, that feeling of...
[45:47] freedom choice of like hope. Yes. Optimism. Yes. What about for you? What are those? It's funny. You and I actually have a very similar story here. So after I, I, I graduate, I'm, I think two years younger than you. I finished school, uh, 2007 job market was in the toilet and,
[46:08] I had saved up a little bit of money from playing poker, but like didn't really have any job prospects. And so I lived on my friend's couch for about six or seven months. Wow. In Texas or? No, this was in Boston. And my thought at the time was like, well, I'll figure something out. Like I've got time. I just finished school. You know, I was still partying a lot. So I was like,
[46:31] I don't want to like change my lifestyle too quickly, you know, so I'll just kind of chill out and see how things come. And then, of course, the crash of 07 happens. There's no jobs anywhere. I ran out of money and I'm I'm living on my friend's couch and I'm like literally taking $100 loans from him each week.
[46:49] Doesn't feel powerful. No, no. It was absolutely miserable. Yes. It was completely miserable. Went through a process. I actually did end up getting a job a few months later. Hated it. Worked some odd part-time jobs. Eventually found my way to starting my first business. And when I started my business...
[47:11] I was still broke. You know, it was like scrapping together to just, I managed to pay, I remember the first $700 I made, I went to the bank, I pulled it out, all out of the bank account, basically drew my bank account down to like 10, 20 bucks, went back to the apartment and immediately handed it to my friend. Oh man, see you're back to zero. Back to zero. At least you didn't have that debt. Yeah, exactly.
[47:37] It was rough, but I eventually hit a point where it was like, you know, the early blogging and the early business is starting to get a little bit of traction, but like I still wasn't financially stable. And from there I moved, I moved in with my girlfriend at the time. She financially supported me for a while. Wow.
[47:53] But it was the same thing that you were talking about. It was like I was learning so much. I was getting better at all these different skills. I was learning web design, copywriting. I was developing myself as a writer. I was learning marketing. I was meeting all these interesting people starting web businesses. Yeah.
[48:10] It just felt, I very much kind of had the same mentality of like, I don't know how long it's going to take, but I'm eventually going to make it. And that feeling kind of sustained me through all that. And it's weird because now I would never go back and like. I know, but you look back, you're like, those were great times. I know, exactly. You get so nostalgic and like, you know, like, oh man. So painful, but it was also you learn something.
[48:34] So much. So much. Yeah. It's like I really do look back on that time very fondly. And it's the sort of thing I would gladly go back and do like a week again. Yeah. But it's like don't stay there. It's like visiting somewhere. You know, you don't want to stay. And when did you feel like you had money but you weren't happy? So immediately after Subtle Art took off.
[48:57] You had success and money and fame and then you weren't happy. Not, well, not immediately after, but soon after. So I would say, you know, the book came out 2016. It hit number one everywhere around New Year's 2017. And then it just stayed number one everywhere pretty much all through 2017, 2018. And I would say starting kind of mid-2017, I fell into a pretty deep funk and...
[49:23] It's funny, I look back and it really had to do with that agency thing, that optimism, that sense of progress. I just felt the success of the book was so vastly disproportionate from my expectation that...
[49:38] That I had no idea what to do with myself. Like it like broke my brain. It broke all my plans, you know, for the next five years of my life. Like everything just got knocked off the table. And suddenly, you know, these massive checks are showing up in my bank account. And I'm like...
[49:56] I don't have to do fucking anything if I don't want to, you know? So I sat around a lot, played a lot of video games, you know, went out drinking with friends, took the wife to Paris, like, you know, did the whole thing, but felt very lost and very lost and very like,
[50:11] just disoriented, you know, kind of like afraid to do anything next, because anything I do next is going to be compared to this last thing. And it's and it's it's going to not measure up at all in my head and anybody's head.
[50:30] And of course, like nobody else really cares, but like you, like me, I care a lot. You know, it's, it's, it's everyone else wanted what you had and you were afraid of it in some sense. Totally. Totally. Interesting. The result of this kind of became the followup book, but it, it actually made it difficult to know what the hope for, because I'm like, I can't imagine anything better than this thing that already happened. And I'm still this like fucked up, anxious, right?
[50:56] you know, miserable dude with a hangover, like nothing changed. Like you were deserving of the money. So my, my wife struggled quite a bit with that. Um,
[51:08] I, cause she was, you guys were married. So it's your money together. But she was like, I didn't create this. You, you know, I think, I think that was a big part of it. Um, it was weird for me. It was just, there was like this psychological adjustment period. So I, I still, I did some of the same things you did, which was like, I'm still like bargain shopping for a flight to Miami. You're like, I'm a multimillionaire. Why am I discounting this? Yeah, exactly. But for me, it wasn't, it wasn't so much out of like anxiety or stress that I was going to go broke.
[51:38] it still hadn't sunk in. Like the math had not sunk in yet of like, dude, saving 50 bucks on a plane ticket is just like, it's literally not worth your time. And so there was a lot of that sort of stuff, like just kind of like literally having to pull out a calculator and do the math and being like, Oh, that is a silly thing to stress over. Like I shouldn't even think about, you know, a dollar figure this size. So there was like, there was a learning curve around that, but yeah,
[52:05] I think part of the difficult thing, and this ties back into your book, people do start treating you a little bit differently. Not everybody. I'd say two-thirds of the people in my life were just very happy for me, and everything was the same. But there was a significant minority of people that...
[52:25] got a little bit weird. We're kind of awkward. People start kissing your ass a lot. You know, some people show up, start asking for things. You can feel that energy. You can feel it. You can feel it. It's like the, the, the friend that used to be so cool and relaxed around you is like not relaxed anymore. Yeah.
[52:42] And a lot of it needy girlfriend that you're like, OK, you know, like I need some space or whatever. You know, it's like, yeah, yeah. Or like you start hearing from people from your past that like, you know, come out after 20 years. You're like, where'd you been? Some dude you went to high school with who's like suddenly wants to hang out and you're like, what?
[52:57] Yeah, that's weird. Yeah. So it is. There's a lot of strange stuff like that that starts happening. But it was interesting watching that in people because what I quickly realized is that it really is about their relationship with money. Right. Like I noticed that the people who got very awkward and uncomfortable around me or like started resenting me or trying to kiss my ass.
[53:19] they had a very unhealthy relationship with money. They thought money was going to solve their problems or they measured themselves by their money. And so when I suddenly had a ton of it,
[53:30] they got weird around me. It's kind of like the, I guess the, your, your friend's parents that maybe came to your house and saw that you guys had like a nice home or something or whatever it is. And like judging and assessing, Oh, what do you guys do for work? You know, it's like kind of shifting their energy around it. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. So it was, um, and then you mentioned earlier about the generosity thing, like, um,
[53:51] When I was younger, especially when I was broke, I definitely, I think I had kind of this naive but very idealistic idea of like, you know, if I'm ever rich one day, I'm just going to take care of everybody. Yes. And I'm just going to pay for things. I'm going to help everybody. What's the problem with that?
[54:08] A lot of people don't like it. Like people don't accept it well. Some people do. Again, it's like most people, they accept it. Like it goes well. And they're very grateful and appreciative. Yeah. And you change lives and they're very, you know, but there's a sizable minority of people. Like they hit it.
[54:27] It doesn't sit right. It doesn't land. You know, they take it a certain way. They're like, oh, you think, oh, now you think you can decide what I do or, oh, now you think you're you can you're better than me. So you get to tell me.
[54:41] you know, that you get to pay for my car instead of me. You know, like it was really. Or they might just say, oh, I expect that you do this now without appreciating it or being grateful. It's just like, oh, you've got the money, so just do it for me. There's some of that too. Some people become entitled. Some people become resentful. Some people become envious. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. And you are the one at the center who has to navigate the emotions of every relationship around money. Right. Right.
[55:05] which can feel overwhelming at times. And set the boundaries and expectations. You have to constantly reinforce a healthy relationship with everyone else's opinion around money with you. Yes. And then be judged for that. Oh, yeah. Because people aren't going to like it. When you say no, when you've got a boundary, people don't like it. Yeah, they're like, oh, well, you're rich now, so you don't have time for me anymore. I see how it is. Oh, you're just another greedy rich guy. Yeah, exactly. You know, it's like, oh, man. So you have to navigate those opinions of you and not give a fuck. Yeah. You know, it's like it's...
[55:33] It is the whole thing. Like I said, I'm so glad you took this angle because I have not seen this angle taken by any money or finance book in any sort of significant way. I've seen it mentioned here in passing here and there, but it's a huge deal. Again, as somebody who's been on both sides of it, been the broke friend and family member who had to rely on others, and also been the wealthy friend and family member who's...
[56:01] been relied upon. Like it is when they have that toxic relationship with money, when they have that unhealthy relationship with money, like it does, it hurts them and it hurts the people around them. A hundred percent. And you know, you and I both know this, that the quality of our lives are related to the quality of our relationships. Yes. My parents fought around money and just fought around a lot of stuff, but there was always stress and anxiety and
[56:25] insecurity at home. It's one of the reasons why I left home at 13 to go to a boarding school because I begged them to send me away. They didn't want me to leave. I begged them because I didn't feel emotionally safe. Now they did the best they could with the tools they had. They both loved me, but they didn't love each other. So I have seen what happens when people have an unhealthy relationship with one another, and I've seen what happens when people live in fear, stress, anxiety around money in relationships with each other. Usually you break up at some point or you...
[56:54] Infect fear on those around you if you're responsible for their lives based on your energy You don't create a safe space My whole journey has been about you know in terms of greatness is like emotional regulation and feeling peaceful How can we feel rich abundant peaceful and good with ourselves? It's about a quality of relationship with ourselves And others and a quality of a relationship with money because it heightens the emotions of relationships in life. Yeah, and
[57:21] That's why I wanted to take this angle because I see so many relationships suffer because of money stress. A lot of divorce happens because of money stress and arguments and disagreements. And I think it's our responsibility as individuals who have.
[57:38] platforms where we're trying to empower people is to give them the tools to be more empowered in their relationships. And I know I struggled a lot with this. And so this was for me as much as it is for others. Yeah. Speaking of relationships, you just got married. Just got married, man. Yeah. Like two weeks ago, three weeks ago? Month ago. Month ago. Yeah, yeah.
[57:58] Feels good. And thanks for all your advice over the last couple of years talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's I'm happy for you guys. She's she's wonderful. And you guys seem so happy together. I'm curious what what were your biggest lessons leading up to both in like leading up to the relationship with Martha, but also like leading up to the wedding as well.
[58:21] I had so much, I guess, challenges in all my previous relationships. They were not healthy in a lot of ways. And I take as much responsibility as the other people in those relationships. But I just said when I was getting in a relationship with Martha when we first started dating, I just promised myself I'm going to do everything completely opposite of what I've done before. It's the George Costanza strategy. I was like, whatever I did before, let me really take inventory. I'm not going to have...
[58:50] We're not, I'm not going to get sexual early. Yeah. I'm going to delay it as long as possible, which for me, it was like the hardest thing to do originally, but I was just like, I'm not going there if I want to take this seriously and see if she's a potential fit and an alignment with what I want in my life.
[59:06] And I can't make a clear decision if sex is involved. I can't. I know myself too well because I feel too much and I'll get too connected and I won't be able to make a good decision. So I need to eliminate that. That was one. Number two was I need to have the most honest, raw conversations and courageous conversations early and often.
[59:30] So we had money conversations early and often. We had conversations around kids, religion, sex, family, all these different things early and often. Just exploring, hey, what is it we really value? What do you really want? This is before you're committed. And then before we were committed, we're going out on dating a lot.
[59:47] I was like, I'm not getting into another committed relationship unless someone's willing to go to therapy with me in the beginning. And she was like, I'm down. And every woman that I was with before, it ended in therapy and they never wanted to go. Right. So I was just like, I'm not doing this again where I'm the one feeling like I'm the only one growing. Right. Or willing to like invest in the relationship.
[1:00:10] Uh, so she was like, I'm down. And we went to therapy early and often in the first year, not because something was wrong, but we wanted to create agreements early on. I'm just like, I grew up with my parents arguing and fighting so frequently that it just didn't feel good.
[1:00:24] And I was like, if I'm going to get in a relationship and get married and have kids in the future, I don't want that to be my environment. I just don't want it. So I want to make sure that there's anything that could be a disagreement. Let's talk about it now and see if we're in alignment. And if we're arguing all the time because we can't find alignment, then we shouldn't be together. And let's end this quickly.
[1:00:46] Not try to have fun and be like the romance phase for two years, then have the hard conversations. I was like, I'd rather end this quickly and you find a great guy and me find a great girl and us both be happy than forcing something. So those elements really created something beautiful for me and for her.
[1:01:05] Um, that allowed me to feel emotionally safe and peaceful. Like I've never felt my life and really feel like I could be a hundred percent me. And there was one condition I had for her when we got, when we got committed, I said, I told her, I will never get upset at you for who you're being. If this is who you are, which I think it's most of you, what I've seen in the first few months, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um,
[1:01:29] I have no reason to get upset at you unless you're lying to me about something, but I have no reason to get upset for your personality because I like who you are and I'm choosing to accept you. My only caveat is you can't get upset at me for who I am.
[1:01:47] If there's something that's upsetting you about me, we need to discuss about it and have a courageous conversation that is not screaming a make wrong or you need to change. None of that. You can talk to me as much as you want about something, but you can't get upset at me and yell at me. It's just not something I'm willing to deal with. And so anything you have a frustration with me, fine. Bring it up. Let's talk about it like a human beings. And if we need to go to therapy, we can go create agreements around something.
[1:02:17] And that was kind of like my only thing. Yeah. I won't get mad at you. You don't get mad at me. But it doesn't mean we don't hide our feelings or emotions around something. We courageously communicate frequently and as much as possible if something's disturbing us. Yeah. I love that. And I love, too, like a piece of advice I give to single people a lot is have what you just said. Have those serious conversations sooner. Yes. In the relationship for so many reasons. One is you just you vet the other person.
[1:02:46] earlier rather than later. There's fewer emotions involved. You get less hurt. There's less fighting. But also having those conversations builds intimacy and trust. So you build the intimacy and trust
[1:03:00] at the get-go rather than having to like, you know, chit chat, talk about the weather, you know, whatever for three months and then like hope that intimacy spontaneously emerges, right? You just find out and like, sure, you're gonna scare some people off and you know, you're gonna find some people who aren't right for you, but it's better to find it out then, then you know, three, six months down the line. Exactly, two, three years later. Yeah. And have more pain later.
[1:03:26] So have more pain now by the uncomfortable conversations and have a lot less pain later. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:03:32] One more thing I want to talk to you about. Yes. I saw you, when did you tell me this? I think it was like end of last year. It was probably like August, September. Okay, like six, seven months ago. Yeah, yeah. You and I hung out. It was going to be, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you were like, I have a new goal. Yeah. And I was like, oh, cool. Like very casually, I'm like, oh, cool, Lewis. Like what's your goal? And then you're like, I'm going to play in the Olympics. I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? And then you explained to me what you meant.
[1:03:59] And now I feel like your biggest fan. You're invested. You're waiting for the Lewis Howes Olympic vlog. I'm so... You'll be the one person that watches this. I'm so emotionally invested in this. I'm going to be there in the front row. You better be there. If I make the Olympics, you got to come. I will fucking be there. Tell me... So tell everybody...
[1:04:19] So this isn't necessarily a new goal. This is probably a goal I've had or a dream since I was five. To revive goal. Yeah, since I was five. Yeah. You know, since the first time I can remember watching sports on TV with my dad, it was like Ohio State football and the Olympics. It was like something that he loved watching. And he always wanted to play football. And I always wanted to be in the Olympics just by like being inspired by the stories of these athletes who have given their lives for a dream. And...
[1:04:48] I've always loved that. And so for me, when I was done playing arena football, I got to live this dream for like six, seven months. Again, I didn't make the NFL, which was my ultimate dream, but I got to get paid to catch a football, which for me, it was kind of like I was poor, but fulfilled. Right. You know, 250 bucks a week, you're making nothing. But I was like, man, I'm living the dream. You know, it's okay. Give me food stamps all day long. I'm good to go. Because I was pursuing something that was meaningful to me.
[1:05:17] When that kind of injury happened, I broke my wrist, had to have surgery. I'm on my sister's couch. It's 2008. I just get my cast off. It's the Summer Olympics, so I guess it's end of July. I just get it off a couple months before then. I'm still on my sister's couch. I'm watching the Olympics, Beijing, 2008. Michael Phelps is like the biggest thing in the world. And at 3 a.m., there's a sport that comes on called team handball. Yeah.
[1:05:42] And I watched this and I'm mesmerized. I'm just like, what? I've never seen this before. And it was mesmerizing. And it's a big sport in Europe. No one knows what it is in the US. And I was like, it just activated the dream inside of me. This 2008 and I was like, I'm going to the Olympics in handball. I don't know how it's going to happen.
[1:06:01] But I'm going to figure out how to be on the USA team and qualify for the Olympics. I start Googling like crazy, like USA handball, teams in Ohio, wherever it might be. How can I find a team to go play for? There's no team in Ohio. There's club teams throughout the big cities in the USA. And I was just like, OK, there's a club team in New York City where they're the national champions, New York City handball team. And I was like, I got to find a way to move to New York City and learn handball.
[1:06:27] I'm emailing like the USA handball organization, but there's no one replying to me. It's kind of unorganized. I'm like, how do I get a tryout? How do I make the team? Nothing's happening. So I'm like, I'm going to New York City to play with the national champs. I need a coach and a model that I can mimic, that I can go learn from, but I don't have any money. It takes me two years to make money where then I finally go to New York City. I show up.
[1:06:54] Because no one would reply to me by emailing people on the team. So they have an address of where they practice. I show up to their address. It's in Brooklyn.
[1:07:02] And I go there and everyone's like, who are you? And I was like, my name is Lewis Howes. I'm here to make the USA national team and go to the Olympics. And there's probably 30 guys in the gym and they all started laughing at me. No joke. I'm the only American in the gym. It's all like Eastern European guys who played professionally back in the day. Germany, France, Poland, all these places that have moved to New York to live and they just play for fun.
[1:07:31] And they were like, this is our last practice of the season. If you're serious, come back in three months if you wanna play. I come back in three months later, same thing. I play with the team for the next nine months. I make the USA national team. And in my mind, I'm like, this is incredible. I start playing with USA across my chest
[1:07:49] And I'm playing in Buenos Aires against Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Mexico, all these international teams. And I get a taste of international competition, of representing the USA. Some of the greatest moments are just wearing the jersey. It's incredible. And I was just like, I need to go to the Olympics. But in order to go to the Olympics in USA team handball, you'd have to win the Pan American Games. Because they take one country from North and South America. And you have to win that tournament to go.
[1:08:20] But we were never good enough to win this tournament. So my thought was, how can the USA get the bid for the Olympics? If they can get it in 2016, 2020, I have a chance. They don't get the bid. So my dream's kind of like...
[1:08:37] fall off because I'm like, it doesn't matter how good I get as a player. The team has to win. And that means the team has to be great. Brazil and Argentina and Chile are just better because they play since they're like seven, right? Let's play when we're like 25 and we find out about the sport. So we might be better athletes, but they're better players.
[1:08:55] And so it was just like we can never beat them, never be competitive enough. So my dreams kind of died for a while because I was like, oh, man, I'm never going to be able to do this. And this is the only sport I could potentially do this in because there's less competition in America. That's why.
[1:09:10] Um, and then, and then the bid for 2028 comes out. I think it was like 10 years ago when this happened, or maybe it's eight years ago when this happened. And at that point I was like, oh man, this is 10 years away. I'm going to be 45 when this happens. And the dream just kind of started to like dwindle. And I was just like, it's so far away.
[1:09:35] And I can't train year round while I have this business and this show. And like, I'm in LA. I'd have to move to Europe. Is it worth it? And at the point it wasn't, but I kept playing. I kept staying in shape. I kept trying to play with the USA team just for fun to see. I was like, maybe there's a chance, but I'm not going to officially retire.
[1:09:54] And then the Olympics come around in August last year, and I saw you right after then. And I was like, I need to go to Paris and I need to watch some games and see if it's still alive in me. And I get there and man, did that dream just reactivate inside of me watching handball in the Olympics. I was like, ah, I want this. Because I wanted to see, do I even care anymore? Right. But it was like, man, it is there. I took a plane while I was in Paris to go see a coach and a team in Spain, a professional team that I knew.
[1:10:24] Cause he said, come out here and do a practice in the tryout. So I go out there and I do a practice and I'm like, I think I, I'm not where I was 10 years ago, but I'm not horrible. Yeah. And I was like, with the right training.
[1:10:39] If I stay healthy, who knows what's possible. And for the last, I guess, seven months, I've been rehabbing my body, I've been training, I've been doing all these different things just for the opportunity to go play for a month with a team in Spain to see how that feels for one month. Now we're still three and a half years away. So much could happen the next three and a half years.
[1:11:02] But I was telling you before we started this conversation, I just feel like I will always regret if I don't pursue this as far as it can go. And if there's a dream that I've had for this long, I can't just let it die. Unless I really don't care about it anymore and I say, ah, I don't have any interest, then okay, let it die. But if there's like a fire inside you, I feel like you have to pursue it.
[1:11:25] And there's going to be some beautiful lessons along the way. So we'll see. I mean, it's like a marathon and I'm just like one step, one day, one month at a time right now. How has it gone so far? I mean, you're, you're what, four or five months into the journey? Yeah, I'm four or five, maybe six months into the journey of just like rehabbing. I lost like 25 pounds.
[1:11:43] But there's definitely been some injuries and setbacks and pains, and I'm like, oh, I can't play the way I used to. So I have to use vision, my mindset, recovery a different way. I can't just be reckless. So it's learning how to play the game differently at this season of life.
[1:12:00] But so far, so good. I've played twice. I played in two games at the end of last year. And there was a couple 27-year-old professionals that I was playing with. They were like, you're pretty good. And it was the first time in five years I played. So I was like, okay, I can still hang with like 25-year-olds. So if I can get better every day for the next three and a half years, who knows what's possible?
[1:12:25] Got to call up Tom Brady and get that, get some of that. Give me the routines, the protocols, everything. The secret, the secret serum or something. I need it. I need it. Yeah, yeah. So I'm excited. You know, I think it's like, it's learning to be grateful just for the opportunity every day to pursue it. Yeah. It's something I'm also excited about because it seems so far away. Three and a half years seems like forever right now for me, but I just am trying to bring it back to day by day. Like I'm just grateful for the opportunity to pursue this. Yeah. And that gives me a lot of joy.
[1:12:53] I love ambitious goals and I love ambitious goals that are so ambitious. They seem like slightly unhinged. Crazy, man. Yes. It just, it, and as soon as you started, cause I remember you were like, I'm going to play in the Olympics. And I was like, what Lewis, what the fuck dude? Like, did you start explaining it to me? And I was like,
[1:13:10] Bro, I'm fucking, I'm in. You're like, maybe there's a chance. I'm in, I'm in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, man. But just saying that, yeah, I'm going to be an Olympian, it seems like a crazy thing for some podcaster. Absolutely. You're like, what? Okay, you're 42. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. But once you understand the context of it, it's like, if I can stay healthy and strong, I believe I have a very good chance in three and a half years. Well, I'm rooting for you.
[1:13:36] The audience is rooting for you. We'll keep tabs on you. Yes. Check out the book, everybody. Lewis Howes. It's been a pleasure. Thanks, man. Appreciate you. Glad we got you on. Thanks for having me, man. Awesome. The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck podcast is produced by Drew Burney. It's edited by Andrew Nishimura. Jessica Choi is our videographer and sound engineer. Thank you for listening, and we will see you next week.

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