# When to Cut Off Your Parents, Mastering Conflict, and Why a Crazy Family Can Make You a Better Person

An episode of [SOLVED with Mark Manson](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1247526593), 25 Sep 2024, 54 min.

Audio: https://claritaspod.com/measure/pscrb.fm/rss/p/mgln.ai/e/441/dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/episode.flightcast.com/vwnu4gc9bzs4yur8zo3rp72d.mp3

Cutting off bad or toxic parents is all the rage in some pockets of the internet these days—but have we lowered the bar a little too much for what makes a parent “toxic”? How can we navigate and own up to the hard conversations we need to have with the people closest to us? And is there a silver lining for putting up with family members who drive us absolutely f*cking insane? Join us on today’s pod as we get a little squirmy in our chairs while we tackle these issues. Drew squashes some beefs, Mark sniffs out some of the bullshit around cutting people off, and we answer one of your questions about dealing with those crazy people you just can’t get away from: your family. Enjoy. CHAPTERS Chapters • 00:00:00 Introduction: The Art of Difficult Conversations • 00:01:36 The Sibling Beef: When Shared History Divides • 00:03:42 Different Childhoods Under the Same Roof • 00:06:17 The Go First Principle: How to Start Hard Conversations • 00:09:14 When Speaking Up Makes Things Worse • 00:10:46 The Strategic Value of Picking Fights When You're Young • 00:13:35 Building Trust Through Confrontation • 00:14:29 Family Versus Friends: Why Stakes Change Everything • 00:16:19 The Intimacy-Conflict Paradox • 00:18:03 The Addiction to Confrontation • 00:21:08 Brilliant or Bullshit: Cutting Off Your Parents • 00:22:50 The Last Resort Standard: When to Actually Cut Contact • 00:23:49 Managing Exposure: The Middle Ground Nobody Talks About • 00:26:23 Concept Creep: When Everyone's a Narcissist • 00:29:50 The Value of Friction: What We Lost by Living Apart • 00:31:13 The Cutting Off Epidemic: Friends, Not Just Family • 00:32:27 When Annoying Becomes Friendship • 00:34:18 Toxic Versus a Toxic Moment • 00:36:42 Reader Question: Breaking Free Without Abandoning Family • 00:37:38 You Can't Save Your Family • 00:46:43 The Fantasy of Being the Savior • 00:40:53 When Success Makes You the Enemy • 00:43:27 The Threat to Identity • 00:45:03 Dealing with Familial Guilt • 00:49:47 The Small Town Mentality: Don't Get Too Big • 00:53:14 Wisdom of the Week: Tolstoy on Unhappy Families ⇨ Sign up for my newsletter, Your Next Breakthrough. It will help make you a less awful person: https://markmanson.net/breakthrough ⇨ Get clarity on what actually matters. Try Purpose, Mark's AI mentor app that learns your patterns, challenges your blind spots, and helps you take action. Get started at https://bit.ly/4w46FMH FOLLOW MARK Mark's IG: https://www.instagram.com/markmanson Solved IG: https://www.instagram.com/solvedpodcast/ Twitter: https://x.com/markmanson LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markmanson/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@IAmMarkManson Theme Song: Icarus Lives by @Periphery , used with permission from Periphery.

## Transcript

[0:00] Oh, it's you again. Haven't I talked to you recently? I talked to you last week. Why am I talking to you again? How is this happening? Why are you talking to me again? I don't know, Drew. I don't know. These are big questions. Both my pay grade. It's the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck podcast with your host, Mark Manson.
[0:25] What are we talking about today? What are we giving a fuck about today? What are the big fucks of the week? The fucks given of the week. The fuck of the week. Difficult conversations, Mark. I'm terrible at this, I think. I don't think I'm very good at it. Anyway. Excited for... It's going to be a great podcast. It's going to be a great one. It's going to be a great one. I don't... I think there are a lot of conversations in my life that I avoid that I need to like kind of... I need to address. I feel like you're actually probably pretty good at this. Like...
[0:53] You're more confrontational than I am. I might be too confrontational. You might be too confrontational. Yes, yes. I think I'm more agreeable until I'm not, obviously. But the conversation I'm thinking of is I need to have some difficult conversations with my siblings, actually. All right. I don't know. We grow up – if you have siblings, you grow up –
[1:12] Uh, thinking that you all grew up the same. I think there's, that's a common thing. Like, oh, we all grew up in the same household. We had the same parents, the same experiences. Right. When actually, you know, I have two siblings. There's three of us. All three of us had very different experiences when you really think about it. I have an older sister who grew up in a small town, conservative area. She was a female, you know, she got treated differently than I did. My little brother is eight years younger than me.
[1:36] Right. So completely different experience. Completely different. So like when I'm, you know, a teenager, he's a little kid. Right. Right. And I recently learned, he said he felt like an only child for those eight years. He was basically an only child. And that kind of was like a wake up call to me like, oh, we had very, very different experiences. And I think that's kind of where the sibling beefs come in a little bit. Okay. And I need to address some of those things. I think with my siblings. What do you guys beef about? Yeah.
[2:01] Um, I actually don't think that's the thing is I'm not sure what the beefs are because we haven't had these conversations. That's what I'm saying. So is there's just like this unspoken rivalry or like sense of competition that goes on? Like, do you guys a little bit? Is it more passive aggressive or do you guys like openly butt heads about now? It's more passive aggressive. Okay. Sometimes. Yeah. Is there like shit talking behind each other's backs? Like, like, give me not so much. I don't.
[2:25] Paint the picture here. We have a pretty good relationship, I would say. But I think there just are some things that we need to dig into. The whole reason I want to do this actually with my siblings is because my parents are getting older. Right. This is actually a common question you get a lot too. Sure. How to deal with aging parents and stuff like that. Sure.
[2:43] I – we have – my siblings and I are at the point now where we need to sit down and talk about those things. Yes. And I started thinking about that and I was like, it would be a lot better if we could clear some of the air around some of these tougher conversations that we probably need to have.
[2:58] It's funny because my brother and I, we butt heads all the time until, I guess, mid-20s. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, we just got on the same page. Yeah. But one of the things that was very helpful for him and I was –
[3:13] recognizing that we had completely different childhood experiences. So he's about four years older than me. And my parents divorced when I was 12, 13. He was 16. He was almost out of high school. So like that's a very different experience than it was for me. So recognizing a lot of those different experiences, I do think is helpful and healthy. But I agree that like if your parents are getting old and there's like you can see some family shit coming down the turnpike, it's better to get ahead of that.
[3:42] like set some expect boundaries and expectations now of like, okay, who's still in town, who's around, who has a, who has a really strong relationship with mom or who, who like gets along really well with dad and like, who's better at like handling, I don't know, money issues or logistical issues. It's probably useful to get together and like divvy up those things. But I'm curious, like, what is this mysterious beef situation?
[4:08] The elephant in the room. Like how would you describe the beef? I think with anyone who has siblings, there's probably at some point you think, oh, you got treated better in this way or I got treated worse in this way. That sort of thing goes along. Like I mentioned, like my sister was a female. She was the oldest growing up in a conservative area. My parents obviously treated her different than they treated me and my brother. Yeah. And then by the time I got – my brother was young and they'd been through –
[4:36] Two kids who were kind of difficult to raise. They kind of just – they let him do whatever. Do whatever he wanted. So it was kind of like that gradient down the line. And so there's a lot of – I think there was maybe some – there might be some beefs around you were preferentially treated in this way and I wasn't.
[4:53] So, yeah, you got the things I didn't get. Right. Whereas you all have those things. Right. Like you got certain things that – I think that's a big one. I don't know if there's any – you know, there's no bad blood, I don't think, between us necessarily. But I think we're, you know, we're adults now and we are going into this like new phase of our life. Our parents are entering this new phase of their lives. That's something I just want to get like, okay, I want to understand their perspective when we go into that a little bit better. And I think it's an uncomfortable conversation that we need to have. Yeah.
[5:22] Gotcha. So it's less about confrontation. It's more just about like mutual understanding and like clearing the air. I think so. Okay. I think that's a big part. So there's no, there's no like, you know, your sister stole 50 bucks from you when you were 12 and. Yeah, there's that kind of shit, but I'm not holding on to that. You're still holding on to it. Pretty sure I would have been the one who stole the money. Ninja Turtle. I've never let it go. I don't even, that probably is. Yeah. Okay. Well, that, that's interesting. I think, so.
[5:52] I can just tell you how I would approach it. Okay. You know, I would, I would like organize like a dinner or something, uh, between the three of you next time you're in town or something. And it's like just the kids, right? Like it's just the three of you like go out for, for tacos or I don't know, what do they eat in Nebraska? Like corn. Steak, man. Come on. It's beef country. Go out for some nice steaks. Um...
[6:17] You know, maybe order a round of drinks or something. And then just like slowly get into it. And I would just be like really blunt. Just be like, hey, I kind of want to talk about this because I feel like, you know, it'd be useful like understand each other's perspectives. And I think it's probably useful in like – because nobody wants to feel like they're walking into a therapy session for no reason. So I think it's useful. That's what I want to avoid. Yeah. So I think it is very useful to anchor it to like, hey, mom and dad aren't –
[6:46] what they used to be, right? And it's probably not gonna get any better. It's gonna be, it's only gonna get more difficult from here, not less difficult.
[6:56] I think the three of us should be on the same page and like really understand each other and like what we're like willing to do and not willing to do. And if there's any resentments or any hangups or anything like we should talk about it or whatever. And you could just broach it that way. And then I think the principle for any sort of conversation like this, it's like the go first principle. Mm-hmm.
[7:18] You should be the first one to open up. 100%. Yeah. And like cable something of like, hey, you know, this is eating at me for a long time or like this bugged me for a long time and it took me a long time to like realize that it's not such a thing. It's just human nature that people, we tend to be more willing to open up when somebody else opens up first. So it's like if you are willing to go first, then that kind of gives them permission to like, you know, well, it's funny you say that because I used to like...
[7:44] Be really resentful of this or that or the other thing. And so hopefully that can get the ball rolling. But it's funny because it's – I don't know. Sometimes I wonder – like I grew up in a family of –
[8:00] people who just never, like people who just bury all their shit. Like both of my parents, my brother, most of my extended family, you know, it's like the fucking house could be burning down and, you know, everybody's just sitting there pretending everything's fine. And I think one of the reasons I've done well at this job is because I kind of had, like I think almost as like a form of survival at a young age,
[8:27] I became the person who would like speak up and say the thing that nobody else was willing to say. Like I would point out the elephant in a room. And I think it's like that is carried over into my writing and into my profession. But it's hard. It's like I often play that role in my family. And so I have just – I think almost chronically like –
[8:51] There were probably about 10 years where I think I maybe overdid it. I was just going to ask. Okay, yeah. Any like nagging little thing that was going on, I felt like I had to bring it up and like make a thing out of it. And the funny thing with these conversations, and I would be aware of this going into the conversation with your siblings too, is like sometimes talking about it.
[9:14] can actually make it worse. Like, yes, it's an uncomfortable thing, but it's not consequential. And so sometimes by talking about it, you actually make it more consequential. So like everybody's got like little resentments and little, like some baggage with family members. Any relationship you've had for a long time, there's gonna be some baggage. And sometimes addressing the baggage alleviates it, but sometimes it just like makes it into bigger baggage. And-
[9:42] I think that's the lesson I've had to learn over the long term of like getting a little bit more
[9:50] choosier with like choose your battles yeah like is this really worth picking a fight over um and back to the parents thing too you know i i've definitely you know 10 10 15 years ago it was like anything that pissed me off i would like bring it up with my parents and make a whole fucking thing out of it you know now now they're in their 70s like i only see them once or twice a year
[10:13] You just let shit go. Let some shit go. You let it go. Yeah. So you think that you went from being maybe – you were too confrontational. Yes. And you think the wisdom over the years has become choosing your battles and –
[10:28] I mean, how do you know which battles to choose? They're like, you did, you did mention, like, if you're only seeing somebody a few times a year, probably just let that shit go. You know, like, I don't bring shit up at, like, Thanksgiving and Christmas and stuff like that. Because a lot of those people, too, I only see them Thanksgiving and Christmas. Yeah. I mean, so much of it also depends on where you're at in your life. Yeah. So I...
[10:46] Like I do think it was more strategically rational to pick more fights when I was younger because my parents were younger. I was younger. You know, I wasn't married yet. I didn't have an established career yet. I didn't really know where my life was going. And so when you're young, there's all these open questions of like, you know, I'm going to bring girlfriends home. I'm going to like – I'm going to move cities. I'm going to –
[11:09] like have to figure out finances and how often I'm going to come home and visit. And like, is our mom and dad going to help me with this thing or that thing? Like there's all, all these open questions still throughout your life. And so I think, uh, any sort of, uh,
[11:24] issue that's being unaddressed or any baggage that's being like left, uh, under discussed, you know, like that has consequences. And that does have repercussions because you're like, okay, you know, I'm gonna have to deal with mom and dad for like the next 20, 30 years. I think where I'm at in my life now, like I'm 40, my parents are in their seventies, I'm married, I have an established career, I've got a house. Like,
[11:47] I don't really need them for anything. At this point in my life, I only see them or interact with them because I want to. So,
[11:56] I think that changes things where it's like, let's not spoil the one Thanksgiving we get. Right, yeah. Over some comment that my stepmom made last year. It's just not worth it. Right. And you kinda learn to let it go. So I don't know. I don't know if I went too far. I don't know if it actually was rational. You know what's funny though that I've noticed? I picked a lot of fights with my parents over
[12:25] I guess you would call it our family dysfunction over the years. And I ended up in a lot of very useful arguments. And I also ended up in a lot of very stupid arguments that were very stressful. What's the difference? But I will say that I think it has developed a certain amount of respect and trust with my parents. And I don't want to like – I don't know. I don't want to speak for him. But like I've noticed that like my brother still –
[12:55] has a little bit more trouble with them than I do. And I think it's because I picked those fights and he didn't. And so now it's like when I talk to my parents and if I say something's good, like they know, they know I feel it's good. Right. Because they know that like I'll pick a fight over it if it's not. Whereas I think with him, there's still a little bit of like tiptoeing around each other and they don't really know like, um,
[13:21] Well, he says it's good, but is it good? Like, you know, he might still be upset about it or maybe he's like still holding on to that thing that happened four years ago or, you know, whatever. So I will say that it's –
[13:35] even if the con like the discussion itself is contentious it's stressful and even if it doesn't necessarily resolve anything or like go anywhere i do think it's it builds trust and respect for each other because it's like okay well drew will fucking speak his mind now right like i know when drew tells me a thing is what it is like i know that's what he believes he's not just bullshitting me he's not just like you know
[14:02] trying to get by through Christmas this year or whatever. Do you, do you approach confrontation with family different than you would with say friends or, or your, your wife or is there any difference there? Do you think, or. That's a good question. You know, because like family, we can't get away from family a lot of times. Right. Yeah. And I think that's the big rub with a lot of people who email into you saying, you know, I can't get away from these people. What do I do versus your friends? You know, you know, you kind of have more choice there. Yeah. Yeah.
[14:29] I almost think it's easier with friends for that reason because there are consequences, right? It's like if you have a fight with a friend, there is a very real possibility or a partner, right? Like there's a very real possibility that like this relationship could end and like you just decide not to see each other anymore. So it puts stakes on the argument and it like people are invested in it. And also people are willing to look out for themselves a little bit more, I think, because –
[14:55] It's like, okay, yeah, if this friendship's not working for me, then like we're both better off not being friends. Whereas with family, you know, you can't necessarily always get away from them. Like you can't, your mother is always your mother, no matter how often you see her or don't see her. Do you think that makes us take our family for granted then? Right? Because it's like, well, they're going to be there no matter what. Up for a lot of people. Yes. Does that make us take our family for granted more often? I feel like it does for me anyway.
[15:24] I think it does. And I think that's part of it. That's part of what makes family so hard is, is because people don't, there, there aren't those stakes. Right. And I think that that works both ways too. Right. It's like, if you have a, if you have a parent who kind of treats you poorly, part of the reason they do that is because it's like, they take you for granted. Like they're like, well, he's not going to get another, another father. Right. So he's just gotta, he's gotta, he's gotta deal with me. Or the reverse is true. If you treat your, your parents like shit, you know, they're your only parents. Right.
[15:52] I do think that, you know, there's this interesting proportionality that I've noticed is that generally the more intimacy we have with somebody, the easier it is to fight with them. And the more off and like the more they trigger us. Right. So like I do think there is there's something about that. Like I think part of it is like the closer you are with somebody like the easier it is for them to like rub you the wrong way or like.
[16:19] rub up against one of your sensitivities. But it also, it's the easier it is to confront them and talk to them because...
[16:27] the stakes, I don't want to say they're lower, but it's like there's like a safety net. Like you can't, it's not like a friend, you can't just like, or it's very difficult to cut them off for life compared to like say a friend or an ex-girlfriend or something. So back to your original question, like do I approach it differently? I don't know if I necessarily approach it differently. I just think the discussions are different. Yeah, sure, sure. You know? Yeah. I mean, to me, it's one of those very basic like,
[16:56] You know, you just pull somebody aside and like, hey, can I talk to you for a second? Like this thing is kind of bugging me. I don't know. I just think with family, there is so much history and baggage that people get triggered much more easily. Yeah, for sure. And it's more difficult to remain rational on both sides. Yeah, yeah.
[17:15] So, yeah, I would – and I guess for anybody listening, like that's the thing I would caution against is like it's so easy. Like if you confront your mom about a thing, it's so easy to get dragged back to like, well, when you were 16, you did this and this and, you know, like you didn't come to my soccer games and like all this shit starts coming up that –
[17:33] might be useful, but also very realistically is probably not. Yeah. And I think that's something you need to really consider before you go into these is like what, what level, how much are you going to bring up? Yeah. Because I think people who are non-confrontational and they get a little taste of confrontation, they're like, Ooh, that's, that felt good. And now you're going to way overshoot it. Like you were saying, you would bring up every little thing. It's like, maybe every little thing doesn't need to be brought up. Yeah. So this is a really good point. Like there is a little bit, like there's a little bit of a high that you get.
[18:03] from a confrontation that ends positively. Like when you resolve something with somebody and the relationship feels more solid and there's more trust and respect, like it feels really, really good. It's like, okay, that conversation was not fun, but the result feels- Clear the air, monkey off my back. Feels great. And so I think there's a-
[18:21] tendency in some people to start looking for the next thing. I mean, this kind of gets into like just personal development addiction or therapy addiction in general. Like there's a, there's an addictiveness to the sensation of improvement or growth. Uh, and so there's a.
[18:36] tendency in some people to find the smallest, most minute thing possible to bring up and make a big deal out of. And then that in and of itself becomes self-defeating. Cool. So how do you feel? Do you feel equipped?
[18:53] Yeah, I think that helps a lot because – especially the whole like be targeted and not – don't get overzealous with this a little bit. There's just a few – there's a few things in particular I would like to bring up to my siblings and eventually my parents too. And we can all sit down and talk about it. And I think that that is –
[19:13] So that's the approach I want to take. And so that helps a lot. Yeah. Rather than just like, let's have this big knockdown drag out. Yeah. I wasn't going to do that, but you know. I think a lot of it, I think a big mistake a lot of people make is that it's more about like creating the context and container for the conversation than like actually just being like, I got to tell you something. You fucking suck because you did this. And it's like, no, like pull them aside, go into another room, go to dinner, go to lunch and be like, hey, actually I wanted to bring something up. Mm-hmm.
[19:43] And just kind of like lightly step into it and then kind of see where it goes. Because a lot of times people react differently than you expect. Like sometimes you go into a conversation like expecting a knockdown dragout fight. And the other person's like, oh, my God, I'm so glad you brought this up. This has been eating at me too. Right? And then you have this like really wonderful like kind conversation. And then other times you think you're going to have like a very simple conversation.
[20:11] you know, clear the air type conversation and you end up in like a fucking screaming match. So it's like, as with all human interactions, there's an element of unpredictability to it. For sure. Yeah. Well, I think that helps. I think that'll, that'll equip me. I like the idea of going to dinner with them, sitting them down. I think they'd both be very amenable to that. And I'm, I'm not expecting a knockdown drag out in any of these things, but you know, we're old enough and mature enough now that that probably won't happen. You would hope I would hope.
[20:38] No guarantees. We'll see though. Yeah. Yeah. No, my, my, my siblings are both there, you know, they're, they have their own opinions and their own lives and they'll, they'll let me know. Cool. But I think it'll be productive. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. All right. We'll be back after this break with brilliant or bullshit. All right. We're back. We're back with brilliant or bullshit. What are we talking about today, Drew? Like what's, what's the, what are the myths that we're dispelling or what are we digging into?
[21:08] Well, there's a trend going on and it relates back to this whole confrontational discussions you need to have with your family. Cutting off your parents. This has kind of become a little bit of a trend, a cultural trend, especially on social media, I think. Oh, boy. Yeah. There's...
[21:23] TikTok just ruining everything. TikTok is ruining families now too. I know. I know. Destroying families. There's some studies that I've found anyway that about 25%, maybe a little bit over, of adult children are estranged from one or both of their parents at any given time.
[21:40] OK, now we don't know if this is increasing or not because we don't have good longitudinal data on this. Like, is this any different than it was from the past? Sure. But it is again, it's in the cultural zeitgeist, social media especially. Yeah. And so it seems to be like a real prevalent thing right now. But a lot of people seem to be walking away from.
[21:59] parental relationships that they have. And sometimes it seems like it's for kind of bullshit reasons. You know, it's not necessarily an abusive relationship. It's just like, oh, you know, maybe you favored one of my siblings over me and I'm not going to talk to you about that. That's what it seems like for some people anyway. Abigail Schreier brought this up when you, when you interviewed her on the show. And it, you know, it, that's a very big decision and a very, it could be a very kind of like,
[22:25] I was just going to say traumatic event, but I'm not sure if that's – I mean cutting off your parent is kind of – can be a traumatic experience. I don't know. When should you cut off a parent and when should you not? Is it brilliant or bullshit to do it? When is it brilliant or bullshit to cut off a parent? When is it brilliant or bullshit to cut off a parent? I'm going to say it's mostly bullshit. I really think cutting off a family member, it is –
[22:50] last resort. And it, and it, the offenses must be so egregious.
[22:57] that and the attempts at rehabilitation or reconnection have been all exhausted and tried so many times that you feel you have no other option. Like it should honestly feel like the only way I can continue to be like a healthy, independent person is to never speak to this parent again. And I just think that it's going to be rare that that is the case. Right. Right.
[23:23] There are a lot of shitty parents that like, don't get me wrong. There's a lot of shitty parents out there. There are a lot of abusive parents out there. But I think the shittiness and abusiveness really needs to approach a threshold of you feeling like your mental or physical health is threatened consistently. So for everybody else in the middle who like struggles with their parents, and let's be honest, like –
[23:49] Everybody fucking struggles with their parents. There's nothing new about this. My answer to this question whenever people ask is it's an issue of exposure and frequency. Like you have to manage your exposure to the parents. Like you can't just like be like, well, mom doesn't respect –
[24:12] my decision, so I'm never going to talk to mom again. It's like, well, which decisions? Okay, so maybe don't talk to her about those decisions. Maybe talk to her, maybe focus on these other aspects of your life. I think a lot of issues that seem permanent, sometimes they just need time. Like sometimes there just needs to be like,
[24:32] okay, we needed a year or two apart to kind of like chill out about this topic. And then we can kind of come back together and like both manage it together. So I feel like in general, you only get one mom, one dad. You're only gonna have them for a certain amount of time. When possible, you should...
[24:52] You know, you should find that threshold that is bearable to be around them, you know, and that could be how often you see them. That could be the duration that you see them. Like, I love my parents, but man, like more than three or four days and I'm like losing my mind. Yeah.
[25:07] And I, I'm pretty sure they feel the same way. So, um, so, you know, it's like, it's understanding where that threshold is and, and, and like getting right up to it. And then also understanding which topics are off limits, which topics are on limits. And then like setting boundaries around that, you know, it's like, if your mom starts giving you shit about something and be like, mom, I'm not going to talk about that with you. Right. Right. Period. Yeah. Done. Then change the subject, you know? Uh, yeah.
[25:33] So I do think so much of this can be like managed tactically. Yeah. There's – so while about 25 percent of adult children are estranged from one parent or another, the vast majority of them end up making amends at some point. So like you're saying, that one to two-year break can be very productive. 70 to 80 percent of the people who –
[25:53] find themselves estranged from one parent or more or both will get, go back and they'll figure it out, which is, you know, that's promising in some way. But do you think, and you kind of touched on this before, but do you think the expansion of definitions of things like trauma, you know, the, the, the blue dot effect basically, right. Where we're applying it more to more situations, you know, a traumatic experience for you as a child might be something different to
[26:23] As an adult or you interpret it differently as an adult or you've now expanded, you know, the word trauma has entered the lexicon to a degree that's probably a little loose with the definition. Sure. There's been a concept creep, not just around trauma, but the word narcissism. Right. The word abuse.
[26:45] you know, emotional abuse, right. Gets thrown around a lot now, you know, so the definition of that's very, right. Like a dad who doesn't approve of anybody you date is now emotionally abused. You know, it's like, is he? No, he's probably not. Maybe he's a dick, but like he's, there's a difference just between being disagreeable and unenjoyable to be around and actually being emotionally, emotionally abusive. And again, like, like,
[27:11] I say this again and again, but, like, the problem with concept creep, the problem with, like, expanding the definitions of all these things, not only does it cause a problem of just, like, leading people to catastrophize normal everyday experiences, like, to think that, like, I don't know, getting cut off at a red light is, like, a...
[27:31] a trauma. What people don't realize is that it does a disservice to people who are actually traumatized. It removes credibility from people who actually have to deal with a narcissist, from people who actually suffer from emotional abuse. It's like if everybody on the street is suffering from emotional abuse, then the person who's actually being abused is
[27:55] isn't going to be noticed. Right. And isn't going to get the attention or care that they need. So not only are you like making yourself worse, but you're also harming the people who are actually victims. So yeah, concept creep is bad, bad, bad. Not good. I'm sure there's a lot of this happening. I've definitely like I've seen my fair share of posts on social media of, you know, teenagers and 20 year olds crying and saying that their mom is abusive because they like wouldn't
[28:20] buy them the shoes that they wanted or something like that. So, like, I think it's, like, a certain amount of this is just teenagers pushing boundaries. The problem is is that the boundary we've created is, like, a diagnosable, like –
[28:33] mental health intervention. Oh, yeah. I think in that sense, like it's the health, like the mental health approach is like backfired to a certain extent. We've like trained teenagers to understand all of these terms and understand these boundaries. And so being teenagers, they wanna see what happens when they cross them. And not realizing that like, we actually have like legal and medical repercussions when those get crossed.
[29:02] So yeah, all of that is to say like I do find a lot of this concerning. My gut is that like there's an inflation of this going on that like 25% is probably higher than it was when, you know, in the 80s and 90s and definitely the 50s and 60s. So I don't know. I think people need to like chill out a little bit.
[29:22] Not only that, but we've talked about before, like in the loneliness epidemic and everything like that, where people are not living close to families as much anymore. You move to a new city, you go off to college, you never move back, you don't see your parents as much. You had David Brooks on and he talked about this, where when you live with family members, especially extended family, or they're closer, they're around more, you learn to deal with difficult people that you can't avoid.
[29:50] And that has escaped us to a large extent where more and more people are living alone. We don't have to necessarily address difficult people in our lives. Yeah. And it might just be easier to cut people off as well. It's the default almost for some people. I – there's a value to friction. Like that was my big takeaway from that conversation and I still think about that a lot. Like there is a value to having friction in life because –
[30:20] it forces you to prioritize and, and to like stick with things. Um, when it's easy to leave a community or a group or a friendship, um,
[30:33] then when things get tough, you're not gonna stick around. You're not gonna develop the skillset to build a relationship, have hard conversations, negotiate outcomes, make compromises. You never build those skills, and so you actually kind of rob yourself of having strong, healthy, long-term relationships in the future. Yeah, I love the idea of there being a certain barrier to exit. I don't know, I think historically, the barrier to exit was like,
[31:02] It was usually like a religious community or, you know, it had a lot to do with like shame and judgment. Right. That's probably bad. But like there is something to...
[31:13] the like social life being so frictionless now that I think backfires. Yes. What do you think? I mean, there is a larger kind of cultural trend to of cutting people off just in general, not just parents. Yeah. But you know, oh, this, this friend, again, it goes back to everybody's a narcissist or I've been traumatized in this way or that way. And I'm just going to cut these people off. You and I have probably even recommended this on the podcast at some point to cut certain people out of your life. Yeah. What do you think is like the, the,
[31:43] I don't know. Is there kind of a rule you would go by to when to cut somebody off and when to like actually go into confrontation with them? Oh, man. I mean – That's a tough one. I know. That's really hard. And I'm going to say like this one, I'm bad at this one. Like I've actually noticed this with myself especially –
[31:58] say the last 10 years, like now that I'm well into adulthood, like my tolerance for people who annoy me has gotten so low. And like, that sounds like a good thing. On paper, that sounds like, yeah, I suffer no fools. I deal with zero bullshit. The problem is, is that like, everybody's gonna annoy you at some point and everybody has a little bit of bullshit in them. And so I've actually, I've run into this problem the past 10 years and that like, I have to stop myself
[32:27] Like I will meet somebody and hang out with them a few times and they'll do something that annoys me. And I'm like, ah, I don't want to hang out with this person again. Like, that's annoying. They're kind of full of shit. And and then a few years go by and I don't have any friends.
[32:43] And I'm like, oh, shit. Maybe I should have stuck with it a little bit more. So that's actually something that I've been working on. And it's a conversation my wife and I have been having of like giving people more chance, like just showing up and like sticking with –
[32:59] Sticking with people through like the minor nuisances and like the tics or proclivities that we don't love or, you know, maybe they say this thing that we find, you know, offends us a little bit. It's like let the shit go. Try again. And...
[33:14] I've definitely been pleasantly surprised in a few cases. Like there, there I can, I can think of two good friends off the top of my head that like the first two or three times I hung out with them, I thought they were annoying as fuck. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's like, you just keep, you keep giving it another chance. And, and I think it pays off. I do think that one of the side effects of, you know, the social media age is just that like our, our tolerance and patience for discomfort, uh,
[33:41] especially socially is extremely low. And I think that backfires. I think it really, it comes back to embracing the friction and allowing it into our lives.
[33:52] It also just shows that, you know, where good advice can turn to bad. Like, yeah, sure. Cut toxic people out of your life. But not every little toxic thing that somebody does makes them a toxic person. Right. So. And it's in the moment, it's easy to bullshit yourself. Right. Right. Like it's, it's a, you know, I had a, I had a friend recently who did something that I thought was, it was manipulative. Yeah. Like it was. Yeah.
[34:18] they were definitely like not being on the level and it really pissed me off. And in the moment I was like, fuck that person. I don't want to see them again. And I don't know, like now a few months have gone by and I'm like, you know, you don't know what's going on in people's lives. Like, you know,
[34:34] I've since found out that they had just lost a job. They were going through like a hard time. They were, you know, they just dealt with it poorly. Like they approached me in kind of the wrong way and that they're not a bad person. Like they're just, they had a moment of weakness or made a bad choice.
[34:53] So I don't know. I'm trying to be more forgiving and more patient. But I guess my point with that is that it's easy to inflate things in the moment of like, wow, that's so toxic. I don't tolerate that shit. And, you know, and then a month goes by and you're like, was it toxic?
[35:09] Like, yeah, it wasn't good, but like, I don't know, what is the definition of toxic? Like, I feel like toxic is like a consistent, repeatable dynamic that happens over and over again. Ah, okay. And whereas like everybody's going to have a one-off shitty moment, you know, even like the coolest person is going to just be kind of an ass occasionally. So I don't know. That's like, that's something that I'm, I'm still struggling with.
[35:35] Okay. So just to recap, going back to the parents, cutting off a parent, you think that it should be like a level of toxicity or even abuse where it's impeding your own personal growth and development to such an extent that you just, you can't.
[35:51] It's not even growth and – I would say it's well-being. Well-being, okay. And I would say too that you've exhausted – like it's not getting better. You've exhausted all sorts of interventions, confrontations. The person shows zero interest in changing. That's a big one I think, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I realize it's hard. Like it's easy to say these things but like in the moment, it's emotionally very difficult to like deal with a parent who –
[36:16] you've got like a lot of history with but um i i do think like the permanent cutoff is pretty drastic like it needs to be the last resort very much a last resort yeah yeah okay okay well there you have it there you have it all right we'll be back after this sponsor
[36:42] All right, we're back. We've got listener questions. What are listeners giving the fuck about? We do. What do we got? Kingsley sent this question in from YouTube. They're asking, how do I deal with a family that's kind of fucked? So what we've been talking about, more or less. I want to be better, and typically that means distancing myself from them. But then I feel guilty and shitty for not trying to help. But when I do, I just seem to get dragged down into their unhealthy habits, conversations, and limiting beliefs.
[37:09] It feels suffocating. I don't know how to properly balance this desire to grow and break generational traumas without completely abandoning my family. I think, I wish my wife was here because I think she could relate to this a lot. The thing that stands out to me in that question, and I see this a lot, and I actually felt this too, is like when you're working on yourself and you're like resolving a lot of the messy shit that you grew up with, I think there's this natural proclivity and for lack of a better term, right?
[37:38] to go back and like fix your family or fix your parents. And I definitely felt that very strongly when I was younger. I've talked to many, many people who like struggle with that as well. You grow into all these realizations and understand things about yourself and realize things about your childhood and what your family's like. And you try to go back and share that with them because it's liberated you and you want to liberate them as well. Yeah.
[38:03] But then they're having none of it. And they're just – it's like same old shit. They like shoot you down. They pull you back down. And I think the issue is not what the questioner thinks it is. It sounds like the questioner like thinks the issue is just like should I abandon them entirely? Should I go away? There's a middle ground which is you don't have to fix them. You can still have a relationship with them.
[38:28] you can just not engage on that level, right? Like if they start talking a bunch of shit and
[38:35] have all these like really unhealthy conversations, like you can just get up and leave the room. You know, you can go find something else to do. You can make it so that you only go home for one day, you know, one day during each holiday each year. You can have boundaries without even necessarily communicating them. Like you can decide, hey, if my mom starts talking about this or acting this way, I'm just gonna leave. Or I'm gonna go in the other room. Or I'm gonna like,
[39:05] call my partner, whatever it is, right? You can manage that exposure. And it's not your responsibility to fix your family. I do think it's good, like, it's good to be a person who offers your family opportunities, who like puts the availability there in front of them of like, hey, I'm not going to do that.
[39:28] If you're interested, it's here, but you can't make them change and you can't make them stop being who they are. And so I think for me, I found it incredibly liberating when I stop trying to change my family and just be there and just let them be who they are. It actually – ironically, they actually –
[39:49] My relationship with them got much better when I stopped trying to fix everything. Right. What is it though – we had several questions that were very similar to this. Yeah. Where someone is trying to improve their life and they either actively take it to the people around them and as you were just talking about like trying to help them change, which you can't make somebody change. Sure. Or they just – they get a lot of flack from the people around them for all these new habits they have or they're trying to –
[40:18] You know, be better. What is it about that? You know, a common thing I hear about those. Oh, these people are they're just trying to justify that their own kind of like, you know, mediocrity or whatever it is and their own decisions and trying to be OK with them. And they don't like seeing other people strive around them. Is that it? Or what is it about this where people just.
[40:37] When we try to better ourselves, they kind of resist it. Well, I definitely think that's doubly true in families because – so look, everybody who feels stuck or is kind of stuck, like they have stories and justifications for why they're stuck. And it's one thing to see somebody else –
[40:53] start striving and doing new things and improving themselves. And of course, you know, these people will talk shit about that person, but when it's your own family member, right? When it's, when it's like your sibling who grew up in the same bullshit you grew up with, with the same abuse, with the same terrible neighborhood and shitty schools, and they're actually doing things and making things of themselves that forces you that like, you know,
[41:17] that destroys a lot of those stories and narratives you've used to justify your complacency. And so the compensation of the reaction, the negative reaction towards it is going to be that much stronger. And I think this is a very common reaction. There are a number of people that I've talked to who grew up in poverty and like –
[41:37] they've experienced this. And like, it's because one person fighting to get out shows that it's possible. And so all the stories that they've created of why it's impossible to get out of poverty, no longer apply. And then that forces them to look at their own lives and be like, oh, shit, what have I been doing the last 10 years? And that's a very uncomfortable thing. So, you know, it is kind of a cliche of like, when you try to improve yourself, people are going to try to pull you back down. Mm-hmm.
[42:04] I don't think it's because they're like necessarily evil or, you know, it is nothing. It has everything to do with them and rather than you. Okay. Yeah. You know, you're popping their illusions of why they didn't make more of themselves.
[42:21] It's like, it's threatening their identity, you think, to some extent, or is it? For sure. Yeah. There's a comfort in just kind of surrendering to your circumstances of just being like, well, always been poor, always going to be poor, nothing I can do about it. Right? And then it's like suddenly your cousin gets into Harvard and you're like, oh, well, fuck, maybe I was wrong. It makes it difficult to maintain that illusion that you've been keeping up.
[42:49] It's just, it's such a mindfuck though. Cause it's like the people you love and closest to you and they're doing well. And then you like, you're like, you're, you're no better than I am. You know, that, that's such a mindfuck I think to go through because it's like the, these people are supposed to love and support you. That's what you think. And you go to them and you're like, Hey, I figured this thing out. You're really excited about it. And they're like, sit down, stay in your lane. Yeah. That's a mindfuck. I think for a lot of people.
[43:12] For sure. But it's like people aren't really able to love and support the people they love if they don't love and support themselves. So like if their relationship with themselves is really dysfunctional.
[43:27] and they've got all these stories about why they don't deserve good things and why nothing good is ever gonna happen to them and why everything seems to go wrong and they're just horribly unlucky and they're victims and all this stuff. And that's what keeps them comfortable and feeling safe. And then you start like fucking popping those balloons one after another, they're actually gonna react defensively. Like they're not gonna see that, they're not gonna be happy for the good things happening to you
[43:57] They're going to like scramble to find justifications of why you just got lucky or why it's not true or why you're being selfish or why you're, you know, you should be doing something else, you know, whatever it is.
[44:14] And I think it's really, really hard to see that. Like, it's really hard to understand that you can really only be happy for somebody else's success when you're already happy with who you are. And people who are not happy with who they are, they're just going to react with envy and jealousy and anger.
[44:34] Well, so a lot of people feel guilty though, then, right? When they either do distance themselves, put up some sort of boundary, reduce contact with them, cut them off completely. There's a lot of guilt that can come with that as well, especially when it comes to family. I don't know. Is there a good way to deal with that? Because, you know, people get, you know, guilt and shame, they have their place, right? But to what extent?
[45:03] Like it's obviously not fair for family members to use guilt against you. Yeah. In most situations anyway. Um, I don't know. Is there, is there any way to deal with that? Like familial guilt? You know what I will say? And I'm not going to go into details, but this has been like incredibly profound for me, you know, like, I don't know about most people, but like before I had a lot of money, I always fantasize. Like if I get a lot of money, um,
[45:28] I'm gonna take care of everybody in my world. I'm gonna like friends, family, anybody who needs help, I'm gonna help them. And that was a really, when my career really took off and I did start making a lot of money, that was a very exciting thing for me. And interestingly enough, I think most people would be shocked at how
[45:53] how often that doesn't go well. Like there will be somebody in your life that you really care about and you will go to them and you will, you will help them financially. You will buy them things. You will pay for schools. You'll get them signed up for classes. You'll get like lay out everything for them, for them to succeed, to make their life better. And it's, it's crazy how many people don't take it. Mm-hmm.
[46:18] And it's crazy how many people actually resent it or they do take it, but then they resent you for it because it feels like you did it and not them. And it's a really complicated thing. And I think I definitely had this illusion that like, okay, well, one day if I have money, I'm just going to help everybody and everybody's going to be happy and we're going to live happily ever after. And it's like, no, humans are fucking complicated. And so the guilt thing is just, I think it's important to understand that it's,
[46:43] Even if you could go back and give those people everything you wanted to give them, there's a good chance that a lot of it wouldn't work. A lot of it wouldn't really move the needle. Some of it might. There might be one person in the family that's like, oh my god, here's an opportunity and they snatch it and they take it and run.
[47:04] But in a lot of cases, like it doesn't go well or it doesn't change anything. You know, like you think it's going to change everything and it just, it's the exact same dynamic just in like a slightly nicer house. Right. You know, so like I think a lot of that guilt is, comes from the fantasy of like, I can fix this. Maybe it's almost like a...
[47:25] it's like a messianic complex of like, I'm gonna be the savior. I'm gonna save my family. I'm gonna come back. I'm gonna make something of myself and I'm gonna come back and I'm gonna save everybody. And it turns out you like can't save anybody or you can only, it's very difficult to save anybody. And,
[47:42] And all that guilt and that pressure you were putting on yourself was just completely like delusional and self-imposed. Right. So I'm curious that like you grew up very humble background. Very working class. Yeah. Yeah. And like you, you had a really successful academic career and like you're doing well. Like did, did you feel like, cause there's, there's the family piece and then there's also like the places you and I grew up, which is, you know, oh, you think you're fancy now. Right. Like. Yeah.
[48:10] Like, oh, that's a nice truck you got there. You think you're fancy now, you know, like that sort of shit. And I'm wondering if you've experienced anything like that. I don't know because, you know, in my family anyway,
[48:22] We were all kind of brought up to be independent and take care of ourselves. And then, you know, we've all kind of done that. Yeah. You know, my siblings and I have done that. And so I've never felt a ton of guilt from my family. I do like helping out as well, too. And I think I did have that same kind of like fantasy of, oh, I'm going to fix everything. Yeah.
[48:41] Yeah. And realizing that that, you know. Doesn't work. It doesn't work. It's like, you know, you get an extreme example. It's like you got a drug addict. The last thing a drug addict needs is more money. Right. And that's not that my family is a bunch of drug addicts or anything like that. But you do realize at some point, like you can't fix everything. And it's almost egotistical of you to think that you can't, like you were saying, there's these delusions of being able to fix everything. I don't think for, you know, I'm lucky in a lot of ways. Yes, I grew up with humble means and working class and whatever, but yeah.
[49:10] My family was always very much like, look, you take care of yourself and we'll help where we can. Right. Even if that's the most minimal thing we can do, we're still going to do it. So I never really felt that. There's been some times where I have felt obligated to help out and I've helped out. Yeah. And it's been fine. But there were boundaries around that even too. It's like, I'm not going to help you out this way, but I'll help you out this way. And we find a compromise.
[49:36] What about culturally? And I bring this up too, because I think not only is this typical of, I guess you'd call it like rural America, like where I grew up, it was very much,
[49:48] if you stand out too much. Oh yeah, that's okay. Like, oh, you think you're better than us. That kind of attitude. And I know that this is a common thing when I talk to Australians, New Zealanders, Scandinavians, a lot of Europeans. There is very much this culture of, if you're too successful, people try to bring you down a notch. And I've definitely felt this a little bit when I go back home. There are certain,
[50:18] certain places or people I'll see and they like, they treat me very differently. And sometimes it's kind of condescending. Sometimes it's ass kissy. Sometimes it's kind of condescending. You know, there's all, I'll get a lot of comments, you know, uh, from people like, Oh, well you're a big famous author now. Like surprised you have time for people like, uh, you know, it's just like, really? Like, but it's very shitty. It feels shitty. Um,
[50:45] So I don't know. I'm wondering if you have any experience with that or if you have thoughts on that. Yeah. I mean, yeah. When I go back home anymore, I just kind of hang out at my parents' house. I don't really go out and interact too much outside of that. But also, I don't know. I've, I mean, I obviously am not as well known as you are, so that I don't have that level, you know, of, of exposure, but, um, yeah.
[51:10] I think I feel it more in my head than is actually the case with my family and the people back there. I don't know. What I found is mostly people don't – they don't really care. Yeah. They're just like whatever. Yeah. I don't know if I feel that as much. No. It's interesting like – I don't know. I've talked to – I have some friends, some Australian friends who are like very successful and they –
[51:35] They live in America, and one of the reasons they live in America is because they feel that at home. Ah, okay, yeah, yeah. But I don't know. It's interesting. Like, I think some of it has to do with how much you identify. Like, I have zero identity wrapped up in – well, I'm not going to say zero, but I have very little of my identity wrapped up in where I grew up. Right, yeah. So when I go back and people act a little bit weird or something –
[52:02] To me, it's just kind of like, oh yeah, that's why I don't live here anymore. Like it doesn't, it doesn't grate on me, but it's funny because when I was growing up, that used to drive me crazy. Okay. Yeah. You know, if you tried to do something a little bit too different or, you know, ambitious or something like people would kind of talk shit about you. Yeah.
[52:20] Yeah. No, especially, you know, me growing up in the middle of the country, it's very much like, hey, do the safe thing and, you know, keep your head down and yeah, don't make too much noise. Totally. For sure. That was, that was part of it. I don't know though too. I grew up, I grew up with a lot of really good teachers though too, who, you know, they were pretty encouraging of, of people's success. I thought, even though it was a small town and, you know, they were.
[52:42] They were teachers in a small town. Sure. They were very much like – they were very supportive of all the kids around them, I thought. Yeah. So I got lucky. Yes, I grew up in like a working class humble family. But there was a lot of people around me who –
[52:56] you know, maybe didn't think, you know, you, you're going to be the next president or whatever, but they were at least like, go, you know, go do something. Hey, the way, the way this election is going, you never know. I know. I know we could be on the ticket together. Hold it, hold it out for, for the Bernie ticket. Yeah. The Drew Bernie ticket. I know, but yeah.
[53:14] Well, awesome. All right. So that's our episode for the week. Be sure to submit your questions. You can go to the new YouTube channel, Subtle Art Not Giving a Fuck Podcast. Submit questions there in the community tab. Or you can just email us at podcast at markmanson.net.
[53:30] Please be sure to like, subscribe, follow the show, leave a review. It helps us. It helps the algorithms. It just gives us good feedback for what we're doing well, what we're not doing well. And we'll leave you with the wisdom of the week, which is one of my favorite, maybe my all-time favorite author, one of my favorite quotes, Leo Tolstoy said, all happy families are alike. Every unhappy family is unhappy differently.
[53:57] So there you go. We'll see you next time. The Subtle Art of Not Getting a Fuck podcast is produced by Drew Burney. It's edited by Andrew Nishimura. Jessica Choi is our videographer and sound engineer. Thank you for listening, and we will see you next week.

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